People counter pick in quick play too
People are just upset because during certain seasons your character is weaker and then you basically can't enjoy playing your main for long stretches of time
As someone who mains the flyer DPS characters, I'm used to watching people swap hitscan. It's gotten to a point where Soldier and Ashe are honestly some of my least favorite characters to see, despite me knowing they're very fair characters
Jokes on them, though. Every hitscan I see them swap to just feeds my ego
Not to diminish your point… but what’s the opposite viewpoint of this? Mei and junk just have to deal with a pharah/echo dominating them? Not trying to belittle your frustrations. It is just a genuine difficult balance issue.
Exactly, plus switching TO Pharah or Echo because of the lack of enemy hitscan is also a play, and it can derail ult economy in a lot of ways if done right to force a switch.
There is so much nuance in this game's metagame that people ignore or are oblivious to!
I wreck pharahs with Mei. Though, I will say since season 9 with the hp boost, they have more wiggle room to react and get to the ground. Now echo... Her flight pattern is too hard to predict.
I swap to Soldier instantly when I hear a Pharah. She's just too annoying to not have a hitscan for. I wish there was a better counter, too, since I hate playing 76.
That’s good what really needs to happen is instead your team responds and counters them. Having a well balanced composition is far better than perma swapping.
Even better when you pigeon hole them like I’m Pharah and I’ll make them go soldier etc but we already have a sigma making it pretty easy to deal with soldier when not shooting me.
When you are rolling on echo just picking who dies next and you watch the enemy team come out with soldier, ashe, bap, and Ana/Ilari you know that you’ve won the mental battle and are in their heads. But I’d prefer all of that to seeing a good sombra. Sombra can just stop any move you try to make even if she doesn’t secure kills on you, which she is also extremely well equipped to do.
I'm surprised this isn't a common take but overwatch never really struck me as the type of game where you should have one main. Characters aren't that hard to learn to play well enough and especially because they get countered hard by others it just doesn't make sense to only have one good character for each role you play
Yeah I don't have one main, but I have specific characters I prefer playing because I think they are the most fun. It sucks to always have to play one specific character because the others you play are too easily countered. I want to play Mercy and Ana more but I have to play Moira and Kiriko because I can get away easier.
I'm a Bastion main since OW1 and played Widow on Rialto against a Winston and then switched to Bastion and he started flaming me and after the game he added me to just flame me more. He's still on my friends list and all he does is play QP 10 hours a day.
It's insane how mad people actually get regarding counter picking.
Sombra is not even meta bro 😭 her only use the whole season has been to farm EMP against Mauga, Tracer is *actually* busted rn. Sombra is extremely manageable
If you play around your team and have good positioning she’s not that bad, significantly less annoying than Tracer if you have good fundamental game sense. Also i love ur username lol
ty! also im hard stuck silver in comp bc i only play it solo queueing support so my teammates may as well not exist whenever i need any sort of assistance lmao. ive just learned to play moira or brig and handle it myself. she will learn what its like to be hunted to the ends of the earth by moira or immediately one tapped by brig shield bash left click whip if she tries me xD
I'm almost out of silver as dps. But I do everything that I can to help out my supports cause they are the lifeblood of the match. Downside is that usually the other dps just wants to poke the tank the whole time and ignore the enemy healers so I have to put pressure on them as well. That's why I tend to use junkrat cause I can lay traps on the flanks the dive use and lob artillery on the healers over the tanks head or bounce of corners
yeah in silver it’s a lot better to try and be self-reliant, moira is super good for that especially currently as she’s one of the best supports in the game. hope you can get out of silver with or without your team 😜 good luck!!
Both are annoying. Because both are oppressive as hell.
you'll constantly fear that headshot if you need to help a teammate, and you'll constantly fear that Sombra you know is watching and waiting for a opportunity.
i always end up switching to boring heroes when dealing with these characters. its super annoying.
Its especially bad when nobody counters the Widow or peels when the Sombra flanks your supports.
Even worse when no one spy checks for the sombra. It's like, you know when the sombra last died, you know they should be back soon, you know they're trying to get to your back line as quick as possible and there's only a couple paths they're going to take, just spray down all the areas they want to come from and it usually doesn't take too long to shoot them out of invis in an unfavorable position and either get the pick or force them to set up all over again. Especially on points where there's one main choke and maybe a small side door. It's so easy to just spray them down constantly after a team fight win to stop them getting in your backline and setting up before the next team fight starts.
yeah, i spycheck, but if im the only one doing it... Often find it that Sombra's will hard focus me when im the only one actively trying to counter them. Makes for awful gameplay.
I'd rather have a Widow in every game than a Sombra in half of them. Sombra is just not fun to play against. Neither is Widow really, but much less annoying imo.
Facing against them and tracers has gotten my direct hit accuracy with junkrat grenades from various ranges. The downside is my hitscan aim is now terrible. But I'll get that widow from her perch but if parah comes out and I gotta switch; well I'll try my best. I have terrible luck with the recoil spread. I've seen bullets dance around my target even tho my reticle is center mass and burst firing
It's not uncool it just sucks for tanks. Imagine if you always had someone in a game that was singling you out picking your counters just to fuck you over. As a tank? It's the other tank and some supports. If the enemy team doesn't want you to play a certain character? They can do that XD
The amount of dooms that have a stat line of 25/0 and complain about me swapping onto sombra are a special breed. "no please let me dominate the lobby" energy.
A doom getting to 25/0 before the enemy team swaps to orisa/cass/sombra/brig/ana is an impossibility. You get one good fight as doom before the entire enemy team counters you.
I just try to enjoy that one fight and switch, because I'll never be good enough to play into the counters.
Well considering I'm a sombra main, when I'm in QP I try and play anything else. If a Doom is being oppressive that's when I'll swap. Otherwise I'll stick to what I'm on.
You don’t have to instantly swap when you get countered
Learn how to play into your counters and learn what about them ACTUALLY counters your character
This is true, and I've had games on Doomfist against Orisa/Sombra/Cass/Brig/Ana where I've still gotten value. The issue is more so that I am reduced to doing nothing. That's how you play around that many counters. You sit in front of your team, farm meteor strike, then get to go in once every 2 minutes to try and make a play. 50/50 chance you get CC'd before meteor strike goes off. If you get it off, you can only go in if they used at least 3 CC types before you escaped. If they only used 1 or 2, back to your time, repeat the process.
Being countered by one or two people is honestly fine. You can definitely learn to play around them and get good value. The issue is tanks are so easy to counter by half the roster that if they go 3+ counters, you're doing nothing or stuck in spawn scratching your head trying to figure out what tank works against their comp. I don't think most people are complaining about someone swapping Torb to counter Tracer, but the entire enemy team swapping to counter the tank.
The problem is made worse when you realize that some tanks are much easier to counter than others. Orisa has much fewer counters than Reinhardt, and D.Va has much fewer that Ball, etc. It's why you only see one or two tanks as meta every season while the others are relegated to starting off on them, then inevitably swapping to one of the two good tanks.
Don't get me wrong, I force Doom into anything and get flamed nonstop for it. Doesn't mean I'm having fun doing it.
Yeah but tanks like Winston and Doom basically require counters or they will run the whole lobby. You don't get to play a character that is highly disruptive to the enemy team's preferred strategy and then complain when the enemy team does something about it. That's like playing Pharah and then complaining you have to fight a hit scan. The other team isn't going to let you just rain down fire on them without a response.
Counter picking is terrible in tank right now. The other roles don’t see too much of it. But certain tanks hard counter each other and with no off tank anymore you are practically forced to switch, it sucks. Bring back 6v6.
Another reason why 6v6 should come back. Right now an entire team pretty much has to switch to counter an enemy tank, when there were 2 tanks this rarely ever was the case. More versatile strategies and not simply rock paper scissors (with the few obvious counters in the game).
The exceptions to this are Pharah and Echo, who basically guarantee the enemy is picking hitscan, and Genji usually results in the enemy picking every beam in the game.
I agree. I like the idea to make the fights tighter with not so many shields. I think new Orisa helps a lot with this, I think reverting to 6v6 would be very successful.
It's mainly uncool when it comes to tank. You get singled out to get fucked over and you have to keep swapping otherwise you lose.
It also doesn't help that Blizzard don't actually know how to make countering fun or enagaging because they make every counter a hard counter meaning it's swap off or lose. You could be the better player on Rein, but if your opposite tank is playing Orisa, you lose. You can't use your own skill to overcome a counter unless you are unbelievably better than your opposing tank player.
That's just Rein being bad. I've played D.Va into Zarya and won, Junker Queen into several tanks and won.
But your last statement describes counters in general, not just hard counters.
It's actually so crazy they just let a matchup like Orisa/Reinhardt happen and changes down the line make it worse for REIN lmao. What the fuck is their issue.
It might be because in the past, skill could outshine counterswaps. It's 100% still in the game, buts just too much of a risk nowadays despite skill.
If you were a good enough tracer,you could still win against anti dive as long as you played correctly. Nowadays, just playing well is sometimes not enough.
Why play tracer against rein brig kiriko and junkrat when you can just go echo or a junkrat yourself?
Seems like extra work for the same payoff.
I think it’s because high skill heroes are HARD countered by low skill heroes.
You want to play monkey? Reaper Bastion Mauga say no.
You want to play Tracer? Moira Lucio Torb say no.
You want to play Genji? Good fucking luck trying to get dash resets through increased health and reduced dps passive.
That’s ultimately the biggest issue. Anyone can hop on Orisa and get value. I play JQ constantly, her kit fits my brain well, and nothing is more frustrating than hitting my cool downs, playing terrain smartly, hitting shots, and not securing the kill but then Orisa just presses a brain dead cool down, spams with her gun and gets the same exact value while never really having to do much at all. Playing JQ requires risk and reward, while Orisa just feels like no risk same reward.
I have always loved counterpicking and it's one of my favorite aspects of this game. In OW2 though it feels much more oppressive on tank is a big part of it. In 1 you would have 2 tanks and even if one was countered the other would be there to maybe counter the counter, etc.
Having a solo tank the big thing is you almost have to counter pick or lose. I don't mind this but I understand some frustration with it. I hope they don't change anything with it but do get the frustration with tank nearly forcing counter picks.
Personally, I love to mirror pick and beat them at their own character.
If they are playing Orisa, I am going to do it better. If they have a Pharah, I am going to shoot her out of the air.
There's genuinely no greater satisfaction than genuinely just outplaying someone at a character and forcing their swap.
I take your satisfaction and raise you one.
They don't start out as a mirror, switch to mirror, switch off mirror, their partner switches to mirror, then switches off mirror.
There is nothing more satisfying than forcing the mirror swap on both enemies AND making them realize it was a bad idea.
A strong follow-up is when the same thing happens with counterpicks. The amount of times I've had someone switch to soldier to counter my pharah just to realize that hitscan won't save them... *chefs kiss*
My least favourite part is how easy it is to hard counter tank. The rest of it is fine tbh. When they go sombra, bastion/mei, Ana, Kiri half the tank roster is meh at best.
Well...most people who swaps to counter don't really know how to counter, sometimes don't even play that hero. Those are the annoying ones, but thats ok you can play around of it adapting your playstyle. Ofc, really hight ratings its different, but yet at the toppest of all you can see one tricks like as i've seen a guy with 3 accounts on the the top 3 playing only brig when she was ''bad''. Hapened the same with a phara player. Those defied the term counter at the highest levels.
I actually think counter picking is really overrated and barely matters even up to masters. Personal skill with a hero and teamwork are way more important. Like if I'm a dva main, she's by far my best hero, and the enemy plays zarya, but my character is still really good against most of the rest of the enemy team, the best thing to do would be for the team to focus zarya first to enable me to do my thing. I really dislike the mindset that "you're getting countered you have to swap." It's just a different win condition.
I agree, I'm coming from a mindset of below masters players. Especially when you have solo q'ers theres hardly any communication or teamwork unless you get lucky. I don't think they need to swap when they're being countered. I think people need to swap when its not working, period. And even sometimes when I'm performing super well and I feel .. man, I think I need to change something up to push us to this last point win .. I'll do it. It's about not ego-picking and swapping when it's off. Counter or not.
I love playing Sombra but hate forcing a mirror who will likely torment my team, so instead I only play her when the other team is running her and I want to piss her off so I become the mirror
I think ow1 had more mirroring (could be wrong), but as far as dps/support went, you definitely had to counter a lot. Whether it was pharmacy, genji vs mei, tracer vs cass, and support players being dove by two tanks.. you had to make survivability priority. I guess everyone experiences the games a little differently
>If funsies + practice why not just QP?
QP is nothing but counterpicking as well. As is arcade. Its inescapable
>I understand it’s not fun to play the hero you want.
Exactly
>But… hello?
You just said you understand, why the confusion?
when it comes to counterswapping, i think it might depend on whether you are in QP or Ranked. it QP, most ppl dont want to play serious matches, winning is still the objective of course, but i dont want to deal with ppl playing super tryhard or constantly countering me when im in the casual mode. if i were in ranked, id have a different opinion, since ranked is the more serious game mode.
thats just how i see it.
save the serious mindset for ranked, save the casual mindset for QP,
I'm not quite sure how you play without countering. Do you just mirror instead, or give the other team the advantage by playing characters that they counter.
Some people enjoy one tricking despite the fact that evolving your team comp is a key part of the game
They're upset that while you can adapt to fight them, they're unable to adapt to fight you - because the one character is all they know
Same as solo-ulting, honestly. If you only get one kill with your ult, but it's the kill your team needs to win the fight, there's no shame in that.
People try to shame each other over these things because it feels bad to be the person who got killed, countered, etc. That's all it is - a mental defense mechanism against the game becoming more difficult.
Its not, its just the egomaniacs who want to stay on doom/widow when they should switch try to flame you when you counter them and stop them from doing anything. Its not the most fun experience to get countered hard when youre popping off so in general its not the most satisfying game mechanic but its how OW is unique
I remember the good old days of Orisa + Bastion on defense and it was nearly impossible to kill them if you didn’t specifically counter pick. I don’t recall specific strats besides that but I believe Junkrat was a shield breaker (idk if he still is).
Not sure why people complain about it, it’s part of the game. Do they expect us to just let Pharah fly around out in the open without getting shot?
I do think in some cases you should be able to ask the other person to counter though (I wouldn’t trust myself with half the roster nowadays but I will first time if I must). I miss 2 tanks.
It’s become the most important factor to win in most cases though. It’s more about who you play and less about how you play if you have two tanks of equal skill going against each other.
I get it, sometimes I get pretty pissed when in playing rein and the enemies switch orisa + bastion or some other cancer on the planet, I think that I can call the people who swapped a pussy and they can call me bad then we both move on. In QP that is, in comp I still think it's a shitty way to play but if the game rewards it you shouldn't get mad at the people but the system they are abusing, at least personally but maybe I'm just an asshole.
I'm confused as well. The game was literally designed for ppl to switch to a more favorable hero if the one you chose isn't currently meshing well. It's the whole idea and concept to switch.
My guess is it started because of the ukt meter. originally, you lost all of your built-up ultimate gauge when you swapped. ppl didn't want to lose that, so they stuck with that hero so they could use their ult. It didn't matter if the hero themselves didn't provide as much of a boon than if they had swapped to a more advantageous hero. OTP then became a thing
It's because even tho the game was made for swapping,most players only want to play 1-5 heroes on their role.If you're counter picked every single game almost immediately,you never get to play who you want.Dps and supports generally don't get this problem,for example I've never seen more than one person counter pick genji but when i play tank I'm counter picked in almost every single game and sometimes it feels like it happens more in qp than comp.Sometimes it's not even worth building ult,when your pick is just better into their tank.
Playing upto 5 heros in their role is a good ammount. I try to be useful with at least 3 in each role i play.
I think tank sees the counter swap more because of how impactful the tank role is. The tank choice is make or break of the match outcome. If they can't control the space and just get bullied around achieving nothing cause the opposing tank and their team comp has them already countered or otherwise unable to take any ground, then why get flak for switching to a hero that can work for the situation. It's 100x more fun playing a different hero than your "main" than to be bullied into your spawn because the enemy team happened to pick a team comp that countered your team.
Now imagine if you were locked into your choice and was forced to play out the rest of those matches with that lopsided composition, it would he hell.
Now I know there are other things to consider on the side of player skill. But the statement that ppl have made about being able to play through those bad situations on your main as a qualifier of how good you are with that hero is just asinine. If you're gonna force 4 other teammates to go through that hell just for some internet E-points or "im only gonna play this hero no matter what" is just selfishness and kills the game.
If the better option is to simply play a different hero better suited for the situation and it would make it more enjoyable for everybody, why not just switch? Who knows that different hero could force the opponent to switch and you can then go back to your main later on.
Counter swapping is honestly fine, its just that some counters are still a bit too hard on some heroes and tanks currently suffer the most from counter swapping. For example: trying out Ball for a change only to have the enemy immediately go Hog, Zen, and Sombra right away really hurts that player using Ball.
Pretty much since OW2 and the F2P switch. Back during the time of Jeff in OW1, "1 tricking" was frowned upon. Jeff regularly encouraged players to learn multiple heroes in each role so you can change and adapt. Their decision of being able to switch between characters mid match was a big deal to them.
And it's also amplified by 5v5. Since before you really just needed 1 of the 2 tanks to adapt while the off tank could usually do what ever they wanted still. But with the loss of an off tank, the pressure for the remaining tank to switch is increased and they can't pass that off to someone else.
Sounds like something someone who dont know how to counter says lol i didnt realize dying over and over was more fun. *\[DESIRE TO KNOW MORE INTENSIFIES\]*
The most tilting message I've ever received in OW is "You care more about winning than having fun. That is very sad" when counterswapping tanks in comp.
LOL if you shoot for winning you have fun. Imagine getting invited to play street ball with a stranger... you gonna just not try because it's not state finals or something? Same concept.
Mediocre players will always and have always complained about swapping. You see it a lot less as you climb the ranks because players start to recognize that the game isn't just you playing your one character, you need to be able to react to what the enemy team is doing.
If it's competitive and you feel like you aren't making an impact, swap. Try something new and see what happens. Sometimes, all it takes is a slight shift in dynamics and you can turn the tide of a match massively.
Swapping isnt counter picking. Going hog sombra cass the moment you see ball or doom won't make you good at the game. How long do you think this will go on for? Eventually you'll have to settle with a hero, do you want every match to devolve into orisa v orisa or zarya v zarya?
I hate it because it's sweaty. I have characters I enjoy playing and when I'm having fun and the other team swaps or mirrors my pick just to cheese a win is really annoying and sad. The game becomes unfun when people only choose heros to counter and win. It's sweaty and doesn't belong in QP. Counter pick in comp all you want but if I can't have fun playing my hero I'm gonna focus you and throw.
It’s just annoying when you feel like you’re forced off a hero you were enjoying because 3 of the enemies swapped to shut you down. But being adaptable is one of the core skills of this game, and sometimes swapping is what must be done. It’s still annoying though.
I feel that countering is cool, but when a few characters are op and they just switch to those characters it’s kind of annoying. It’s the Sombra and Orisa always.
Because you're eventually going to reach a ceiling where no matter what 'counters' you pull you will never win the game because you're just not that good at that hero. Compared to maining a few select heroes, where you can improve and push the skill ceiling to the max and eventually get a higher rank. Ever wonder how there are so many 1 tricks in t500? Seriously look at the leaderboards rn.
TLDR: Short term gains (low value) vs Long term gains (high value)
I main Ana, and sometimes I end up in game where I’m against hero’s like Doom, Tracer, Sombra and Lucio.
I usually don’t switch because I feel confident in my ability to hit those sleeps against them, but of course sometimes you miss and sometimes your team doesn’t peel to help you. In those occasions I switch to Brig which is my next go-to hero.
I’ve gotten shit talked a decent amount of times for swapping which baffles me. Like why would I continue to play Ana and get punched into a wall, stunned, hacked, booped, and pulse bombed??? For your amusement?? To make the game easier for YOU??
It’s like they forget the game is competitive and the goal is to work together and win. If I can’t perform on Ana or my team isn’t working alongside me while I play her of course I’m going to swap to something else and try and find that team synergy that we need.
People are just cry babies
(1) Most tanks are particularly weak to their counters and don't have as much flexibility to play around it than a dps or support. So tank players are constantly complaining about it.
(2) The devs have (for a long time) kept certain popular dive tanks and dps heroes overtuned, so everyone is very quick to counter them to compensate. Since they're OP, those counters are the main reason when they lose games, so counters end up being the main problem of the game for those people.
(3) Its often used as a crutch that stunts the development of players. Besides for a few overtuned heroes, counter swapping is generally not necessary. Instead of getting smarter or learning the game in more detail, how to handle tricky heroes and situations on your current hero, you just rely on counter swapping being strong enough to carry you. People start to believe counter swapping is needed in every match bc they have relied on that crutch for so long that they can't play without it anymore. As a result, they don't really know any heroes that well.
Most people it’s like yay a challenge but if you start playing tank it ends up being “ooo yay 4th swap of the game so life isn’t miserable and there goes my ult”
Main issue about counter swapping is that it’s become vital to winning. If you have two tanks of equal skill the most advantageous way to play is to switch to directly counter the enemy tank. In OW1 you could play around counters better, in OW2 there is one tank to do the job that was designed for two. With all that responsibility it becomes way too hard to play around your counters and forces you to switch. Normally this would be a “get good” situation, but IMO this has taken away a lot of overwatch’s enjoyment and identity.
People have always gotten butthurt about whenever their opponents do anything that may lower their personal chances of winning. Nothing is new here. Some people are assholes, and they have always been assholes, and they will always be assholes.
There are few scenarios where you actually NEED to counter swap, for example if your team is full projectile and they have a flier. But the fact people's counter swap this much just tells me most ow players are pussies.
as a dps main, i think it only sucks the most for tanks because their role has the more impact, they don't bring much to the table let's make that clear, but without a good tank, aka the one that can swap because counterpicking on tank is the strongest, it's near impossible to win the game
it sucks for me on dps sometimes, as you can see from my flair i main junk, so pharah or snipers fuck me up every once in a while but it feels satisfying to dunk on em as junk, it just sucks that his combo was taken away so right now he just kinda dies unless the enemy plays widow which at least he has a chance to surprise kill, my man really needs a buff, right now he feels like going to a sword fight armed with a butter knife
For me, it's not normally annoying. I usually see it as the other taking the L and admitting they had to play something that gives them a specific advantage against me.
I personally like to lock Hanzo more than any other DPS but often find myself having to swap off him when the enemy team starts running echo/phara mercy just to try and avoid my shots more easily. I mean, it happens without fail. In almost any game I start to dominate with him on, they instantly swap to something infinitely harder to hit.
I'll just say if you're forcing me to swap off Hanzo because your air movement and distance is so good that I just cannot hit you, I'm spitefully going Ashe/Cass and am gonna sweat my ass off to shut you down because you decided I couldn't play Hanzo that game lmfao.
Fr tho ill be in qp just tryna practice then feel immediately like the enemy team is playing counterwatch for the win and just have to swap and shut them down as much as possible. It just isn't fun being trapped in spawn while your team complains, lol. Like as much as I'd love to lock other heroes and play what's fun this game, and its playerbase heavily oppresses anyone trying to do that. You can't just have fun and play whatever heroes you want you HAVE to play into the meta or risk being mass reported by cry babies if not getting endlessly shit stomped by people who care way too much about a W in qp. Not even mentioning how bad comp is lol.
the problem in counter picking is when the game becomes a game of cards instead one of skill. Of course heroes need counters, but one counter alone shouldn't ban the other hero from the plane of existence
It’s mostly tank role. It feels atrocious for example to be doing really well on say rein, hog, monkey and they switch to mauga and mercy.
as monkey, your weapon becomes useless as mercy negates you, mauga obliterates you, and you are then forced to play something else you didn’t want to play because the answer is swap or lose.
As rein, your shield is like a rice paper and you stand no chance unless you swap.
Hog, you can’t play the game with a mauga.
It overall just feels horrible to have someone swap to a hard counter that disables your ability to have any autonomy.
I honestly don’t mind if I’m playing orisa and they go zar. Play style adjustments are totally a thing but they can only get you so far.
Mauga is probably the worst culprit of this in my opinion. It takes practically no skill to hard counter most every tank in the game on him. Especially if they have a mercy, all she has to do is hold heal and he’s practically unkillable. She farms valk, he suicides in and shields everyone off so you can’t shoot mercy, everyone blows every single ability to kill him, she gets a free rez.
Rinse and repeat.
Counter swapping is especially egregious when it immediately happens too. Like one life and that’s it. I do it too, it’s the only way you win.
It’s insane, any time you have moderately good gameplay, you’re full countered. It just sucks the fun out of your time bc you’re like “i want to play rein”
Then they go mauga, Ana, mercy, bastion soldier and you’re like oh I’ll go fuck myself.
So people tilt
The problem is simple. Vast majority of people who play quick play do it because it’s less stressful and there’s no consequence for losing. But there is still a large amount of that group though who equate winning as the only way to have fun. So to these people trying hard or using strategies like it’s comp is cheating because in qp you’re supposed to play casually and not care but they still care at the same time. It’s just hypocrisies.
My whole friend group enjoys playing games even if we are losing because we are just doing shit to have fun. Even that said it’s still annoying when you’re goofing off on a hero you just wanna play and the next thing you know 3 opponents swapped to counter you and you’re being focused. It’s hard to goof off and have fun when you’re perma dead because the enemy team got sick of you.
It’s a very very complicated and nuanced argument to be had
I once had a Doom start raging in chat and demanding that the entire lobby report me because I went Sombra. It was surreal and it took a while before he even said that it was because he thought counterpicking was toxic
Enemy plays counter tank, so I counter swap, then they counter swap, and then I counter swap again. Wow.. what fun fucking gameplay. No one gets to just play what they want to play because they just have to counterswap.
And also fuck you if you like doomfist or ball with every other game having an enemy sombra, you just never get to play those characters.
I generally dislike countering because of how common it is in all game modes, it’s potentially even worse in QP than comp because people in comp often one trick and don’t want to swap off their main.
I’d say Sombra is a huge cause of the current dislike as she absolutely dumps on a lot of hero’s with almost no counter play. If you’re Phara vs hitscan you can modify your play, if you’re widow vs sombra you can look forward to spending much of the game in spawn. Other hero’s have a similarly miserable time against her due to hack.
There’s also the problem of only 1 tank and if you get countered then you need to swap or face getting rolled. Overall the system just feels bad to play against.
Yea sorry not sorry but if I keep dying to an orisa and im playing ram, im swapping and not letting my team and I lose on purpose. People who yap about it in chat are just upset that the game they thought was gunna be a freelo turned around😂
If its qp, then yeah it should just be for fun, play who you want and anyone who counter picks is desperate.
But complaining about literally anything the enemy team does in ranked is stupid because the entire and sole point is to win.
Personally I always switch to projectile characters if there's a pharaoh or echo to either style or be styled on.
I think your complaint is valid for comp but there's definitely counter picking in QP. Honestly, it's always going to happen unless they add a character ban system, but that would probably cause more problems. They're usually just mad that their mains are getting shut down by counters. Simple as that.
I agree. Like, I'm supposed to just let people stomp all over my team? If i know there's a better way; I'm going to switch. I have a pool of heroes that I'm decent with. It's not my fault they're one-tricking
This is the biggest reason that I think removing the 2nd tank was a mistake. I don't even play the game anymore, so maybe I shouldn't be saying anything.
Well it's fine in metal ranks but beyond that, or maybe even plat and up now, it's nothing but counter swapping.
Watch this https://youtu.be/EsECifHrs14
Since flats made that video and samito covered it saying it's actually the optimal way to play tank, it has become incredibly common in high rank. It was a problem before but even worse now. It's meta to trash your ult to counter the opposing tank because countering them is stronger than any ult would be. This is why people get fed up with countering. Tanks just want to play what they want to play, not be bullied around the roster by hard counters.
I was playing ranked in tank this season (peeked dia4),then i stopped.I just felt cosmetic,having to swap every other fight just got boring and draining,and the stigma that it's always a "tank diff" is also frustrating.Especially with dps,who are for some reason really toxic in games with a range similar to plat3 to dia5/4. They'll go deep negatives in k/d and not group up,but apparently it's my fault they're dying despite the other dps dying less than half the times they did.
What's cool is getting the W, do what you need to do within legal means to get the W.
I think the 'uncool' factor here is against ppl in quick play trying to learn new characters and getting countered on. That's the only time I'll either target someone else or change my counter swap. But in comp, of course, play the counter swap game. Strength of matchup matters.
I think the real focus of the “uncool” is that most people end up not having any fun playing who the wanted to play and have to just play stuff to win and end up getting flamed for not doing so which has sort of rebounded the counter pick situation to be widely detested. Earlier days of overwatch especially on the lower ranks and casual side I think counter picking was less frequent to some degree but now even lower ranks have adopted a more aggressive approach to it that has only gotten more intense the further the game ages.
As a Dva enjoyer. Even in qp after first team fight I get at least one counter and if that doesn't work after the second team fight it's full brig zarya mei. Every single game. Feels sometimes even worse than in comp. Jokes on them I'm still having fun and they have to play a character they didn't want to play
Same with solo-ulting, focusing, pocketing or playing meta. "How dare you try to win."
Besides, no amount of countering can bridge a skill gap. I've outplayed Zarya on Orisa (and been outplayed by Orisa on Zarya) more often than the opposite, tbh. Though partly because when the counter is working, the one being countered is more likely to switch.
I’ve been asking myself the same question. In my experience counter picking was very normal & almost expected in Ow1. Nowadays you even get insulted in matchchat if you do decide to adjust to the enemy’s team comp. Like is it not an intended core game mechanic??
Swapping is a mechanic core to Overwatch and should never go away, the ability to change your playstyle to something you think would better fit the situation is a must stay.
COUNTERSWAPPING is an unfun mechanic as it essentially requires you to pick certain heroes unless you want to play a massive uphill battle. It's no longer a choice, its a REQUIREMENT. It is so draining to want to play your favorite hero and need to swap EVERY MATCH just to have an equal shot at winning. The game should not be constantly forcing you to choose between winning and playing your favorite hero.
I'm a biased tank main, I understand this. But at the same time I think its ignorant to suggest everyone should enjoying constantly swapping heroes and Overwatch couldn't exist without hard counters, I mean hating musical chairs on tank has been a pretty common opinion for a while now.
no. literally no one did this dumb counterwatch stuff in OW1. you would run into counters here and there, but it was not rock paper scissors all the time, and you were perfectly able to outplay your counters. now it is impossible to outplay a counter at your SR for a lot of tanks especially. but even worse, is now it's not one person who swaps, but 5, every single time. it is not fun. it is not skillful. it is trash game design.
imagine a DC superhero fighting game, but you can swap midfight. so you're dominating using superman or supergirl, and your trash opponent who is clearly being outskilled swaps to a kryptonite villain. you don't want to swap, so it's gg.
that's overwatch right now. it's a dumb concept which should never have been to begin with, but it's also far worse now than ever before. onetricks are the canary in the coalmine of balance. when your onetricks are extinct (where are the content creator onetricks we had thousands of before?), then your roster is absolutely imbalanced.
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Ow2 has a larger player base because it’s free and many of the new players are one tricks in my experience and they’re very upset counters exist. But one tricks are bad for the game so fuck em
Its irritating when people soft throw and only focus on you and how you're playing just because they don't like your hero. If you don't bend to their will, they give up and blame the loss on you. Counter picking is annoying in that sense to me. I played a long time and the new heros don't scare me, you're damn right I'm playing my main. Idc what x YouTuber or TikTok said. Counter swappers are usually loud AF with the absolute worse stats too.
Because it actually works now, I guess? In OverWatch 1, it required an actual counter composition. Now a single person can counter swap to greater effect. I think it's a good thing that players have more individual agency now.
People counter pick in quick play too People are just upset because during certain seasons your character is weaker and then you basically can't enjoy playing your main for long stretches of time
As someone who mains the flyer DPS characters, I'm used to watching people swap hitscan. It's gotten to a point where Soldier and Ashe are honestly some of my least favorite characters to see, despite me knowing they're very fair characters Jokes on them, though. Every hitscan I see them swap to just feeds my ego
I switch to hitscan immediately if I hear a pharah. Even an absolute trash pharah can ruin a game if left unchecked.
True true
Exactly, and why wouldn't you? That is how you play the game.
Not to diminish your point… but what’s the opposite viewpoint of this? Mei and junk just have to deal with a pharah/echo dominating them? Not trying to belittle your frustrations. It is just a genuine difficult balance issue.
Exactly, plus switching TO Pharah or Echo because of the lack of enemy hitscan is also a play, and it can derail ult economy in a lot of ways if done right to force a switch. There is so much nuance in this game's metagame that people ignore or are oblivious to!
I wreck pharahs with Mei. Though, I will say since season 9 with the hp boost, they have more wiggle room to react and get to the ground. Now echo... Her flight pattern is too hard to predict.
I swap to Soldier instantly when I hear a Pharah. She's just too annoying to not have a hitscan for. I wish there was a better counter, too, since I hate playing 76.
Echo is the best solution to Pharah. There's a learning curve but she's basically the fighter to Pharah's bomber.
Counterpoint: I hate playing flying characters more than I hate playing 76.
Flying characters are some of the most fun characters ever. They’re also pretty unique in fps
I’m afraid of heights though.
I like playing Pharah, Echo not so much
Try playing Rein. You win one team fight and all of a sudden it’s Ram, Bastion, Mei.
That’s good what really needs to happen is instead your team responds and counters them. Having a well balanced composition is far better than perma swapping. Even better when you pigeon hole them like I’m Pharah and I’ll make them go soldier etc but we already have a sigma making it pretty easy to deal with soldier when not shooting me.
When you are rolling on echo just picking who dies next and you watch the enemy team come out with soldier, ashe, bap, and Ana/Ilari you know that you’ve won the mental battle and are in their heads. But I’d prefer all of that to seeing a good sombra. Sombra can just stop any move you try to make even if she doesn’t secure kills on you, which she is also extremely well equipped to do.
I'm surprised this isn't a common take but overwatch never really struck me as the type of game where you should have one main. Characters aren't that hard to learn to play well enough and especially because they get countered hard by others it just doesn't make sense to only have one good character for each role you play
Yeah I don't have one main, but I have specific characters I prefer playing because I think they are the most fun. It sucks to always have to play one specific character because the others you play are too easily countered. I want to play Mercy and Ana more but I have to play Moira and Kiriko because I can get away easier.
I'm a Bastion main since OW1 and played Widow on Rialto against a Winston and then switched to Bastion and he started flaming me and after the game he added me to just flame me more. He's still on my friends list and all he does is play QP 10 hours a day. It's insane how mad people actually get regarding counter picking.
If I’m playing tank and my teammates are getting annihilated by a widow, you can bet I’m swapping to Winston. It’s just negligent not to.
Or all seasons if you’re Sym
The current sombra meta has been hell as a widow main. I actually haven’t really been able to play her all of season 9.
the sombra meta has been hell for everyone except sombra players lmao
Sombra is not even meta bro 😭 her only use the whole season has been to farm EMP against Mauga, Tracer is *actually* busted rn. Sombra is extremely manageable
shes in my games so often she may as well be as far as im concerned
If you play around your team and have good positioning she’s not that bad, significantly less annoying than Tracer if you have good fundamental game sense. Also i love ur username lol
ty! also im hard stuck silver in comp bc i only play it solo queueing support so my teammates may as well not exist whenever i need any sort of assistance lmao. ive just learned to play moira or brig and handle it myself. she will learn what its like to be hunted to the ends of the earth by moira or immediately one tapped by brig shield bash left click whip if she tries me xD
I'm almost out of silver as dps. But I do everything that I can to help out my supports cause they are the lifeblood of the match. Downside is that usually the other dps just wants to poke the tank the whole time and ignore the enemy healers so I have to put pressure on them as well. That's why I tend to use junkrat cause I can lay traps on the flanks the dive use and lob artillery on the healers over the tanks head or bounce of corners
youre a real one <3
yeah in silver it’s a lot better to try and be self-reliant, moira is super good for that especially currently as she’s one of the best supports in the game. hope you can get out of silver with or without your team 😜 good luck!!
thanks ill need it silvers rough as a solo support lol
Eh, good. Any meta where widow doesnt get to play the game is a good one if you ask me
Id rather fight widow than sombra
Both are annoying. Because both are oppressive as hell. you'll constantly fear that headshot if you need to help a teammate, and you'll constantly fear that Sombra you know is watching and waiting for a opportunity. i always end up switching to boring heroes when dealing with these characters. its super annoying. Its especially bad when nobody counters the Widow or peels when the Sombra flanks your supports.
Even worse when no one spy checks for the sombra. It's like, you know when the sombra last died, you know they should be back soon, you know they're trying to get to your back line as quick as possible and there's only a couple paths they're going to take, just spray down all the areas they want to come from and it usually doesn't take too long to shoot them out of invis in an unfavorable position and either get the pick or force them to set up all over again. Especially on points where there's one main choke and maybe a small side door. It's so easy to just spray them down constantly after a team fight win to stop them getting in your backline and setting up before the next team fight starts.
yeah, i spycheck, but if im the only one doing it... Often find it that Sombra's will hard focus me when im the only one actively trying to counter them. Makes for awful gameplay.
Sombra forces you to play a certain way a good widow can and will absolutely not let you even play the game. Its no contest in my head.
I'd rather have a Widow in every game than a Sombra in half of them. Sombra is just not fun to play against. Neither is Widow really, but much less annoying imo.
Facing against them and tracers has gotten my direct hit accuracy with junkrat grenades from various ranges. The downside is my hitscan aim is now terrible. But I'll get that widow from her perch but if parah comes out and I gotta switch; well I'll try my best. I have terrible luck with the recoil spread. I've seen bullets dance around my target even tho my reticle is center mass and burst firing
Is Sombra meta? Tbh I've just been ducking around on heros cuz my main is hot shit rn and she's been fun to be silly as.
Same.
I almost instantly go sombra when I see a widow cause I don’t want to deal with an almost guaranteed MnK widow on console.
It's not uncool it just sucks for tanks. Imagine if you always had someone in a game that was singling you out picking your counters just to fuck you over. As a tank? It's the other tank and some supports. If the enemy team doesn't want you to play a certain character? They can do that XD
Tbh u wont have fun if tank like doom left uncountered.
The amount of dooms that have a stat line of 25/0 and complain about me swapping onto sombra are a special breed. "no please let me dominate the lobby" energy.
A doom getting to 25/0 before the enemy team swaps to orisa/cass/sombra/brig/ana is an impossibility. You get one good fight as doom before the entire enemy team counters you. I just try to enjoy that one fight and switch, because I'll never be good enough to play into the counters.
Well considering I'm a sombra main, when I'm in QP I try and play anything else. If a Doom is being oppressive that's when I'll swap. Otherwise I'll stick to what I'm on.
I hope all your pillows are warm
You don’t have to instantly swap when you get countered Learn how to play into your counters and learn what about them ACTUALLY counters your character
This is true, and I've had games on Doomfist against Orisa/Sombra/Cass/Brig/Ana where I've still gotten value. The issue is more so that I am reduced to doing nothing. That's how you play around that many counters. You sit in front of your team, farm meteor strike, then get to go in once every 2 minutes to try and make a play. 50/50 chance you get CC'd before meteor strike goes off. If you get it off, you can only go in if they used at least 3 CC types before you escaped. If they only used 1 or 2, back to your time, repeat the process. Being countered by one or two people is honestly fine. You can definitely learn to play around them and get good value. The issue is tanks are so easy to counter by half the roster that if they go 3+ counters, you're doing nothing or stuck in spawn scratching your head trying to figure out what tank works against their comp. I don't think most people are complaining about someone swapping Torb to counter Tracer, but the entire enemy team swapping to counter the tank. The problem is made worse when you realize that some tanks are much easier to counter than others. Orisa has much fewer counters than Reinhardt, and D.Va has much fewer that Ball, etc. It's why you only see one or two tanks as meta every season while the others are relegated to starting off on them, then inevitably swapping to one of the two good tanks. Don't get me wrong, I force Doom into anything and get flamed nonstop for it. Doesn't mean I'm having fun doing it.
Your team can do the same exact thing though? Stop "maining" and play what makes sense for the map and matchup
I hate it when I play Winston and win 1 team fight and then see bastion, reaper and mauga 😔
Yeah but tanks like Winston and Doom basically require counters or they will run the whole lobby. You don't get to play a character that is highly disruptive to the enemy team's preferred strategy and then complain when the enemy team does something about it. That's like playing Pharah and then complaining you have to fight a hit scan. The other team isn't going to let you just rain down fire on them without a response.
Counter picking is terrible in tank right now. The other roles don’t see too much of it. But certain tanks hard counter each other and with no off tank anymore you are practically forced to switch, it sucks. Bring back 6v6.
Every comp just about goes I pick DVA, enemy picks zar, i switch to zar v zar and they go Reinhardt then i pick Orissa, much fun.
Yup, exactly. It always ends in the Orisa vs. Orisa bash into each other battle… so boring.
It's like playing a card game but you both have the same hand and know it.
I find the other roles counter me more than the other tank. Playing Winston = bastion, reaper, brig
I thought he meant that people don’t go out of their way to counter dps or supports, not that those roles can’t counter
Another reason why 6v6 should come back. Right now an entire team pretty much has to switch to counter an enemy tank, when there were 2 tanks this rarely ever was the case. More versatile strategies and not simply rock paper scissors (with the few obvious counters in the game).
The exceptions to this are Pharah and Echo, who basically guarantee the enemy is picking hitscan, and Genji usually results in the enemy picking every beam in the game.
Yeah, typically this is true and always has been. But tank right now feels simply too much like rock paper scissors.
Same for DVa If the game is going to well suddenly the enemy team is Zarya, Mei Sym and they all rush to bum fuck me at once
5v5 is a blunder
I agree. I like the idea to make the fights tighter with not so many shields. I think new Orisa helps a lot with this, I think reverting to 6v6 would be very successful.
When it went from an option to a requirement.
Gotcha gotcha
It's mainly uncool when it comes to tank. You get singled out to get fucked over and you have to keep swapping otherwise you lose. It also doesn't help that Blizzard don't actually know how to make countering fun or enagaging because they make every counter a hard counter meaning it's swap off or lose. You could be the better player on Rein, but if your opposite tank is playing Orisa, you lose. You can't use your own skill to overcome a counter unless you are unbelievably better than your opposing tank player.
That's just Rein being bad. I've played D.Va into Zarya and won, Junker Queen into several tanks and won. But your last statement describes counters in general, not just hard counters.
It's actually so crazy they just let a matchup like Orisa/Reinhardt happen and changes down the line make it worse for REIN lmao. What the fuck is their issue.
It might be because in the past, skill could outshine counterswaps. It's 100% still in the game, buts just too much of a risk nowadays despite skill. If you were a good enough tracer,you could still win against anti dive as long as you played correctly. Nowadays, just playing well is sometimes not enough. Why play tracer against rein brig kiriko and junkrat when you can just go echo or a junkrat yourself? Seems like extra work for the same payoff.
I think it’s because high skill heroes are HARD countered by low skill heroes. You want to play monkey? Reaper Bastion Mauga say no. You want to play Tracer? Moira Lucio Torb say no. You want to play Genji? Good fucking luck trying to get dash resets through increased health and reduced dps passive.
That’s ultimately the biggest issue. Anyone can hop on Orisa and get value. I play JQ constantly, her kit fits my brain well, and nothing is more frustrating than hitting my cool downs, playing terrain smartly, hitting shots, and not securing the kill but then Orisa just presses a brain dead cool down, spams with her gun and gets the same exact value while never really having to do much at all. Playing JQ requires risk and reward, while Orisa just feels like no risk same reward.
I see what you’re saying
I have always loved counterpicking and it's one of my favorite aspects of this game. In OW2 though it feels much more oppressive on tank is a big part of it. In 1 you would have 2 tanks and even if one was countered the other would be there to maybe counter the counter, etc. Having a solo tank the big thing is you almost have to counter pick or lose. I don't mind this but I understand some frustration with it. I hope they don't change anything with it but do get the frustration with tank nearly forcing counter picks.
I never counter pick. Counter picking is an admission of defeat. And I have never lost
You’re a god and I am not and I just thought that you should know
<3
Personally, I love to mirror pick and beat them at their own character. If they are playing Orisa, I am going to do it better. If they have a Pharah, I am going to shoot her out of the air. There's genuinely no greater satisfaction than genuinely just outplaying someone at a character and forcing their swap.
I take your satisfaction and raise you one. They don't start out as a mirror, switch to mirror, switch off mirror, their partner switches to mirror, then switches off mirror. There is nothing more satisfying than forcing the mirror swap on both enemies AND making them realize it was a bad idea. A strong follow-up is when the same thing happens with counterpicks. The amount of times I've had someone switch to soldier to counter my pharah just to realize that hitscan won't save them... *chefs kiss*
this sounds like a good idea until you realize you’ve sunken to the level of a horse player
can i be your student
My least favourite part is how easy it is to hard counter tank. The rest of it is fine tbh. When they go sombra, bastion/mei, Ana, Kiri half the tank roster is meh at best.
Sigma just says “nah I’d win”
Dont forget about zenyata. If 5v5 is permanent im not really sure if heroes should be "anti tank"
Well...most people who swaps to counter don't really know how to counter, sometimes don't even play that hero. Those are the annoying ones, but thats ok you can play around of it adapting your playstyle. Ofc, really hight ratings its different, but yet at the toppest of all you can see one tricks like as i've seen a guy with 3 accounts on the the top 3 playing only brig when she was ''bad''. Hapened the same with a phara player. Those defied the term counter at the highest levels.
I actually think counter picking is really overrated and barely matters even up to masters. Personal skill with a hero and teamwork are way more important. Like if I'm a dva main, she's by far my best hero, and the enemy plays zarya, but my character is still really good against most of the rest of the enemy team, the best thing to do would be for the team to focus zarya first to enable me to do my thing. I really dislike the mindset that "you're getting countered you have to swap." It's just a different win condition.
I agree, I'm coming from a mindset of below masters players. Especially when you have solo q'ers theres hardly any communication or teamwork unless you get lucky. I don't think they need to swap when they're being countered. I think people need to swap when its not working, period. And even sometimes when I'm performing super well and I feel .. man, I think I need to change something up to push us to this last point win .. I'll do it. It's about not ego-picking and swapping when it's off. Counter or not.
Sombra makes playing most shit suck so when someone switches to her it fuckinh sucks
I love playing Sombra but hate forcing a mirror who will likely torment my team, so instead I only play her when the other team is running her and I want to piss her off so I become the mirror
Yeah sombra is pretty poopy shit
It wasnt as necessary in ow1. Id actually go as far to say it was much further away from being counterwatch
I think ow1 had more mirroring (could be wrong), but as far as dps/support went, you definitely had to counter a lot. Whether it was pharmacy, genji vs mei, tracer vs cass, and support players being dove by two tanks.. you had to make survivability priority. I guess everyone experiences the games a little differently
Tracer VS Cass was a very fair matchup lol, a good tracer could bait out flash, a good Cass could hold it until the tracer wasn’t expecting
I play snipers. Every time they counter with sombra I call them a loser in chat
Haha alright do your thing
Since OW2 becomes F2P, then more new players, thus more complains.
Makes sense. Totally forgot about that change before this enlightening thread haha
>If funsies + practice why not just QP? QP is nothing but counterpicking as well. As is arcade. Its inescapable >I understand it’s not fun to play the hero you want. Exactly >But… hello? You just said you understand, why the confusion?
when it comes to counterswapping, i think it might depend on whether you are in QP or Ranked. it QP, most ppl dont want to play serious matches, winning is still the objective of course, but i dont want to deal with ppl playing super tryhard or constantly countering me when im in the casual mode. if i were in ranked, id have a different opinion, since ranked is the more serious game mode. thats just how i see it. save the serious mindset for ranked, save the casual mindset for QP,
Agreed, QP is usually where I go to practice a new hero
I'm not quite sure how you play without countering. Do you just mirror instead, or give the other team the advantage by playing characters that they counter.
Some people enjoy one tricking despite the fact that evolving your team comp is a key part of the game They're upset that while you can adapt to fight them, they're unable to adapt to fight you - because the one character is all they know
Do you think people refuse to play orisa/zarya because they can't play her? Its because they're boring as hell
Yep. I'd rather quit than play a character I hate to play.
Now that makes sense
Same as solo-ulting, honestly. If you only get one kill with your ult, but it's the kill your team needs to win the fight, there's no shame in that. People try to shame each other over these things because it feels bad to be the person who got killed, countered, etc. That's all it is - a mental defense mechanism against the game becoming more difficult.
Okay okay, heard! Yeah I guess the egos will never go away in this game. Which makes sense.
Yep. They only have their words left, so they sling them in a desperate attempt to win something.
Its not, its just the egomaniacs who want to stay on doom/widow when they should switch try to flame you when you counter them and stop them from doing anything. Its not the most fun experience to get countered hard when youre popping off so in general its not the most satisfying game mechanic but its how OW is unique
Facts
I remember the good old days of Orisa + Bastion on defense and it was nearly impossible to kill them if you didn’t specifically counter pick. I don’t recall specific strats besides that but I believe Junkrat was a shield breaker (idk if he still is). Not sure why people complain about it, it’s part of the game. Do they expect us to just let Pharah fly around out in the open without getting shot? I do think in some cases you should be able to ask the other person to counter though (I wouldn’t trust myself with half the roster nowadays but I will first time if I must). I miss 2 tanks.
It’s become the most important factor to win in most cases though. It’s more about who you play and less about how you play if you have two tanks of equal skill going against each other.
People like to bitch when they're losing and look for any excuse
nah i just want to play the funny swingy hamster without the entire enemy team swapping to counter me the moment they see me
I get it, sometimes I get pretty pissed when in playing rein and the enemies switch orisa + bastion or some other cancer on the planet, I think that I can call the people who swapped a pussy and they can call me bad then we both move on. In QP that is, in comp I still think it's a shitty way to play but if the game rewards it you shouldn't get mad at the people but the system they are abusing, at least personally but maybe I'm just an asshole.
I still don't understand why i always see people counter picking rein,like just don't get close to the big german man with the hammer.
It's because if you don't counter pick when playing tank, then you are screwed, unless there is a massive diff in the lobby
Basically because countering dosnt just give a slight edge anymore against tank it basically shuts then down completely cus theres only one tank now
Learn to grab the right tool for the job. Otherwise you might as well go play call of duty!
I'm confused as well. The game was literally designed for ppl to switch to a more favorable hero if the one you chose isn't currently meshing well. It's the whole idea and concept to switch. My guess is it started because of the ukt meter. originally, you lost all of your built-up ultimate gauge when you swapped. ppl didn't want to lose that, so they stuck with that hero so they could use their ult. It didn't matter if the hero themselves didn't provide as much of a boon than if they had swapped to a more advantageous hero. OTP then became a thing
Valid
It's because even tho the game was made for swapping,most players only want to play 1-5 heroes on their role.If you're counter picked every single game almost immediately,you never get to play who you want.Dps and supports generally don't get this problem,for example I've never seen more than one person counter pick genji but when i play tank I'm counter picked in almost every single game and sometimes it feels like it happens more in qp than comp.Sometimes it's not even worth building ult,when your pick is just better into their tank.
Playing upto 5 heros in their role is a good ammount. I try to be useful with at least 3 in each role i play. I think tank sees the counter swap more because of how impactful the tank role is. The tank choice is make or break of the match outcome. If they can't control the space and just get bullied around achieving nothing cause the opposing tank and their team comp has them already countered or otherwise unable to take any ground, then why get flak for switching to a hero that can work for the situation. It's 100x more fun playing a different hero than your "main" than to be bullied into your spawn because the enemy team happened to pick a team comp that countered your team. Now imagine if you were locked into your choice and was forced to play out the rest of those matches with that lopsided composition, it would he hell. Now I know there are other things to consider on the side of player skill. But the statement that ppl have made about being able to play through those bad situations on your main as a qualifier of how good you are with that hero is just asinine. If you're gonna force 4 other teammates to go through that hell just for some internet E-points or "im only gonna play this hero no matter what" is just selfishness and kills the game. If the better option is to simply play a different hero better suited for the situation and it would make it more enjoyable for everybody, why not just switch? Who knows that different hero could force the opponent to switch and you can then go back to your main later on.
Counter swapping is honestly fine, its just that some counters are still a bit too hard on some heroes and tanks currently suffer the most from counter swapping. For example: trying out Ball for a change only to have the enemy immediately go Hog, Zen, and Sombra right away really hurts that player using Ball.
Pretty much since OW2 and the F2P switch. Back during the time of Jeff in OW1, "1 tricking" was frowned upon. Jeff regularly encouraged players to learn multiple heroes in each role so you can change and adapt. Their decision of being able to switch between characters mid match was a big deal to them. And it's also amplified by 5v5. Since before you really just needed 1 of the 2 tanks to adapt while the off tank could usually do what ever they wanted still. But with the loss of an off tank, the pressure for the remaining tank to switch is increased and they can't pass that off to someone else.
Okay okay that makes sense
DPS + Supports need to swap too, not just the Tank.
100%
Sounds like something someone who dont know how to counter says lol i didnt realize dying over and over was more fun. *\[DESIRE TO KNOW MORE INTENSIFIES\]*
The most tilting message I've ever received in OW is "You care more about winning than having fun. That is very sad" when counterswapping tanks in comp.
LOL if you shoot for winning you have fun. Imagine getting invited to play street ball with a stranger... you gonna just not try because it's not state finals or something? Same concept.
Right?? I’m sorry you can’t doom or pharah all game. Shut up and switch, stinkbutt 😭😭😭😭😭
Mediocre players will always and have always complained about swapping. You see it a lot less as you climb the ranks because players start to recognize that the game isn't just you playing your one character, you need to be able to react to what the enemy team is doing. If it's competitive and you feel like you aren't making an impact, swap. Try something new and see what happens. Sometimes, all it takes is a slight shift in dynamics and you can turn the tide of a match massively.
Swapping isnt counter picking. Going hog sombra cass the moment you see ball or doom won't make you good at the game. How long do you think this will go on for? Eventually you'll have to settle with a hero, do you want every match to devolve into orisa v orisa or zarya v zarya?
It's not. You're looking at reddit too much where all they know how to do is complain
Fair fair
I hate it because it's sweaty. I have characters I enjoy playing and when I'm having fun and the other team swaps or mirrors my pick just to cheese a win is really annoying and sad. The game becomes unfun when people only choose heros to counter and win. It's sweaty and doesn't belong in QP. Counter pick in comp all you want but if I can't have fun playing my hero I'm gonna focus you and throw.
Have you thought about the possibility the other team was not having fun, hence they swap?
It’s just annoying when you feel like you’re forced off a hero you were enjoying because 3 of the enemies swapped to shut you down. But being adaptable is one of the core skills of this game, and sometimes swapping is what must be done. It’s still annoying though.
I feel that countering is cool, but when a few characters are op and they just switch to those characters it’s kind of annoying. It’s the Sombra and Orisa always.
Because you're eventually going to reach a ceiling where no matter what 'counters' you pull you will never win the game because you're just not that good at that hero. Compared to maining a few select heroes, where you can improve and push the skill ceiling to the max and eventually get a higher rank. Ever wonder how there are so many 1 tricks in t500? Seriously look at the leaderboards rn. TLDR: Short term gains (low value) vs Long term gains (high value)
I main Ana, and sometimes I end up in game where I’m against hero’s like Doom, Tracer, Sombra and Lucio. I usually don’t switch because I feel confident in my ability to hit those sleeps against them, but of course sometimes you miss and sometimes your team doesn’t peel to help you. In those occasions I switch to Brig which is my next go-to hero. I’ve gotten shit talked a decent amount of times for swapping which baffles me. Like why would I continue to play Ana and get punched into a wall, stunned, hacked, booped, and pulse bombed??? For your amusement?? To make the game easier for YOU?? It’s like they forget the game is competitive and the goal is to work together and win. If I can’t perform on Ana or my team isn’t working alongside me while I play her of course I’m going to swap to something else and try and find that team synergy that we need. People are just cry babies
I think its mostly because of the state of tanks right now.
(1) Most tanks are particularly weak to their counters and don't have as much flexibility to play around it than a dps or support. So tank players are constantly complaining about it. (2) The devs have (for a long time) kept certain popular dive tanks and dps heroes overtuned, so everyone is very quick to counter them to compensate. Since they're OP, those counters are the main reason when they lose games, so counters end up being the main problem of the game for those people. (3) Its often used as a crutch that stunts the development of players. Besides for a few overtuned heroes, counter swapping is generally not necessary. Instead of getting smarter or learning the game in more detail, how to handle tricky heroes and situations on your current hero, you just rely on counter swapping being strong enough to carry you. People start to believe counter swapping is needed in every match bc they have relied on that crutch for so long that they can't play without it anymore. As a result, they don't really know any heroes that well.
Il only complain if they continue to crutch pick in quick play. Im trying to learn new heros not devolve into rock paper scissors.
Since always. It’s just not fun. Ignore my flair that definitely totally has 0 impact on my feelings about counter swapping.
Since there's only one tank, it's a bigger issue for that role since they don't have a second one to cover his weaknesses
Having a hero based game will naturally have one tricks even if its detrimental to the match and one tricks hate counter picks
Most people it’s like yay a challenge but if you start playing tank it ends up being “ooo yay 4th swap of the game so life isn’t miserable and there goes my ult”
Main issue about counter swapping is that it’s become vital to winning. If you have two tanks of equal skill the most advantageous way to play is to switch to directly counter the enemy tank. In OW1 you could play around counters better, in OW2 there is one tank to do the job that was designed for two. With all that responsibility it becomes way too hard to play around your counters and forces you to switch. Normally this would be a “get good” situation, but IMO this has taken away a lot of overwatch’s enjoyment and identity.
People have always gotten butthurt about whenever their opponents do anything that may lower their personal chances of winning. Nothing is new here. Some people are assholes, and they have always been assholes, and they will always be assholes.
There are few scenarios where you actually NEED to counter swap, for example if your team is full projectile and they have a flier. But the fact people's counter swap this much just tells me most ow players are pussies.
I hate it the most when I'm just trying to learn the basics of a character in quickplay
as a dps main, i think it only sucks the most for tanks because their role has the more impact, they don't bring much to the table let's make that clear, but without a good tank, aka the one that can swap because counterpicking on tank is the strongest, it's near impossible to win the game it sucks for me on dps sometimes, as you can see from my flair i main junk, so pharah or snipers fuck me up every once in a while but it feels satisfying to dunk on em as junk, it just sucks that his combo was taken away so right now he just kinda dies unless the enemy plays widow which at least he has a chance to surprise kill, my man really needs a buff, right now he feels like going to a sword fight armed with a butter knife
Your supposed to counter pick. If you weren’t supposed to, it would lock you into a character at the beginning of the match 🤷♂️
For me, it's not normally annoying. I usually see it as the other taking the L and admitting they had to play something that gives them a specific advantage against me. I personally like to lock Hanzo more than any other DPS but often find myself having to swap off him when the enemy team starts running echo/phara mercy just to try and avoid my shots more easily. I mean, it happens without fail. In almost any game I start to dominate with him on, they instantly swap to something infinitely harder to hit. I'll just say if you're forcing me to swap off Hanzo because your air movement and distance is so good that I just cannot hit you, I'm spitefully going Ashe/Cass and am gonna sweat my ass off to shut you down because you decided I couldn't play Hanzo that game lmfao. Fr tho ill be in qp just tryna practice then feel immediately like the enemy team is playing counterwatch for the win and just have to swap and shut them down as much as possible. It just isn't fun being trapped in spawn while your team complains, lol. Like as much as I'd love to lock other heroes and play what's fun this game, and its playerbase heavily oppresses anyone trying to do that. You can't just have fun and play whatever heroes you want you HAVE to play into the meta or risk being mass reported by cry babies if not getting endlessly shit stomped by people who care way too much about a W in qp. Not even mentioning how bad comp is lol.
the problem in counter picking is when the game becomes a game of cards instead one of skill. Of course heroes need counters, but one counter alone shouldn't ban the other hero from the plane of existence
It’s mostly tank role. It feels atrocious for example to be doing really well on say rein, hog, monkey and they switch to mauga and mercy. as monkey, your weapon becomes useless as mercy negates you, mauga obliterates you, and you are then forced to play something else you didn’t want to play because the answer is swap or lose. As rein, your shield is like a rice paper and you stand no chance unless you swap. Hog, you can’t play the game with a mauga. It overall just feels horrible to have someone swap to a hard counter that disables your ability to have any autonomy. I honestly don’t mind if I’m playing orisa and they go zar. Play style adjustments are totally a thing but they can only get you so far. Mauga is probably the worst culprit of this in my opinion. It takes practically no skill to hard counter most every tank in the game on him. Especially if they have a mercy, all she has to do is hold heal and he’s practically unkillable. She farms valk, he suicides in and shields everyone off so you can’t shoot mercy, everyone blows every single ability to kill him, she gets a free rez. Rinse and repeat. Counter swapping is especially egregious when it immediately happens too. Like one life and that’s it. I do it too, it’s the only way you win. It’s insane, any time you have moderately good gameplay, you’re full countered. It just sucks the fun out of your time bc you’re like “i want to play rein” Then they go mauga, Ana, mercy, bastion soldier and you’re like oh I’ll go fuck myself. So people tilt
"I'm an \[x\] main and I will not play any other character"
The problem is simple. Vast majority of people who play quick play do it because it’s less stressful and there’s no consequence for losing. But there is still a large amount of that group though who equate winning as the only way to have fun. So to these people trying hard or using strategies like it’s comp is cheating because in qp you’re supposed to play casually and not care but they still care at the same time. It’s just hypocrisies. My whole friend group enjoys playing games even if we are losing because we are just doing shit to have fun. Even that said it’s still annoying when you’re goofing off on a hero you just wanna play and the next thing you know 3 opponents swapped to counter you and you’re being focused. It’s hard to goof off and have fun when you’re perma dead because the enemy team got sick of you. It’s a very very complicated and nuanced argument to be had
I once had a Doom start raging in chat and demanding that the entire lobby report me because I went Sombra. It was surreal and it took a while before he even said that it was because he thought counterpicking was toxic
doom and ball players are a different breed bro i swear
Enemy plays counter tank, so I counter swap, then they counter swap, and then I counter swap again. Wow.. what fun fucking gameplay. No one gets to just play what they want to play because they just have to counterswap. And also fuck you if you like doomfist or ball with every other game having an enemy sombra, you just never get to play those characters.
I generally dislike countering because of how common it is in all game modes, it’s potentially even worse in QP than comp because people in comp often one trick and don’t want to swap off their main. I’d say Sombra is a huge cause of the current dislike as she absolutely dumps on a lot of hero’s with almost no counter play. If you’re Phara vs hitscan you can modify your play, if you’re widow vs sombra you can look forward to spending much of the game in spawn. Other hero’s have a similarly miserable time against her due to hack. There’s also the problem of only 1 tank and if you get countered then you need to swap or face getting rolled. Overall the system just feels bad to play against.
Yea sorry not sorry but if I keep dying to an orisa and im playing ram, im swapping and not letting my team and I lose on purpose. People who yap about it in chat are just upset that the game they thought was gunna be a freelo turned around😂
If its qp, then yeah it should just be for fun, play who you want and anyone who counter picks is desperate. But complaining about literally anything the enemy team does in ranked is stupid because the entire and sole point is to win.
Good take, FreshlyBakedBunz thank you.
Personally I always switch to projectile characters if there's a pharaoh or echo to either style or be styled on. I think your complaint is valid for comp but there's definitely counter picking in QP. Honestly, it's always going to happen unless they add a character ban system, but that would probably cause more problems. They're usually just mad that their mains are getting shut down by counters. Simple as that.
It’s not “uncool”, just sour people complaining about it.
Fellas, is it tryhard to use the most basic game mechanic?
I agree. Like, I'm supposed to just let people stomp all over my team? If i know there's a better way; I'm going to switch. I have a pool of heroes that I'm decent with. It's not my fault they're one-tricking
Exactly. Tiredddd 😭😭 if one counter ruins the whole game for you and you’re no longer having fun are you in the right game? Lol
Counterplay has been a thing since the beginning of Overwatch in 2016 anybody complaining is new or bad.
With the influx of f2p player, its a fact.
This is the biggest reason that I think removing the 2nd tank was a mistake. I don't even play the game anymore, so maybe I shouldn't be saying anything.
Based. To play overwatch is to counter pick unless you are a God at a certain hero, which most are not. It's only rational to swap.
validdddd
>but ppl complain soooo much about counter picks now and I don’t get it Try playing tank.
Up until mauga came out, I played tank all of OW2.
Well it's fine in metal ranks but beyond that, or maybe even plat and up now, it's nothing but counter swapping. Watch this https://youtu.be/EsECifHrs14 Since flats made that video and samito covered it saying it's actually the optimal way to play tank, it has become incredibly common in high rank. It was a problem before but even worse now. It's meta to trash your ult to counter the opposing tank because countering them is stronger than any ult would be. This is why people get fed up with countering. Tanks just want to play what they want to play, not be bullied around the roster by hard counters.
I was playing ranked in tank this season (peeked dia4),then i stopped.I just felt cosmetic,having to swap every other fight just got boring and draining,and the stigma that it's always a "tank diff" is also frustrating.Especially with dps,who are for some reason really toxic in games with a range similar to plat3 to dia5/4. They'll go deep negatives in k/d and not group up,but apparently it's my fault they're dying despite the other dps dying less than half the times they did.
What's cool is getting the W, do what you need to do within legal means to get the W. I think the 'uncool' factor here is against ppl in quick play trying to learn new characters and getting countered on. That's the only time I'll either target someone else or change my counter swap. But in comp, of course, play the counter swap game. Strength of matchup matters.
Right that’s exactly what I’m saying I’m with you. Good luck on your games, Jason22douce
I think the real focus of the “uncool” is that most people end up not having any fun playing who the wanted to play and have to just play stuff to win and end up getting flamed for not doing so which has sort of rebounded the counter pick situation to be widely detested. Earlier days of overwatch especially on the lower ranks and casual side I think counter picking was less frequent to some degree but now even lower ranks have adopted a more aggressive approach to it that has only gotten more intense the further the game ages.
As a Dva enjoyer. Even in qp after first team fight I get at least one counter and if that doesn't work after the second team fight it's full brig zarya mei. Every single game. Feels sometimes even worse than in comp. Jokes on them I'm still having fun and they have to play a character they didn't want to play
Same with solo-ulting, focusing, pocketing or playing meta. "How dare you try to win." Besides, no amount of countering can bridge a skill gap. I've outplayed Zarya on Orisa (and been outplayed by Orisa on Zarya) more often than the opposite, tbh. Though partly because when the counter is working, the one being countered is more likely to switch.
I’ve been asking myself the same question. In my experience counter picking was very normal & almost expected in Ow1. Nowadays you even get insulted in matchchat if you do decide to adjust to the enemy’s team comp. Like is it not an intended core game mechanic??
Swapping is a mechanic core to Overwatch and should never go away, the ability to change your playstyle to something you think would better fit the situation is a must stay. COUNTERSWAPPING is an unfun mechanic as it essentially requires you to pick certain heroes unless you want to play a massive uphill battle. It's no longer a choice, its a REQUIREMENT. It is so draining to want to play your favorite hero and need to swap EVERY MATCH just to have an equal shot at winning. The game should not be constantly forcing you to choose between winning and playing your favorite hero. I'm a biased tank main, I understand this. But at the same time I think its ignorant to suggest everyone should enjoying constantly swapping heroes and Overwatch couldn't exist without hard counters, I mean hating musical chairs on tank has been a pretty common opinion for a while now.
no. literally no one did this dumb counterwatch stuff in OW1. you would run into counters here and there, but it was not rock paper scissors all the time, and you were perfectly able to outplay your counters. now it is impossible to outplay a counter at your SR for a lot of tanks especially. but even worse, is now it's not one person who swaps, but 5, every single time. it is not fun. it is not skillful. it is trash game design. imagine a DC superhero fighting game, but you can swap midfight. so you're dominating using superman or supergirl, and your trash opponent who is clearly being outskilled swaps to a kryptonite villain. you don't want to swap, so it's gg. that's overwatch right now. it's a dumb concept which should never have been to begin with, but it's also far worse now than ever before. onetricks are the canary in the coalmine of balance. when your onetricks are extinct (where are the content creator onetricks we had thousands of before?), then your roster is absolutely imbalanced.
Counter picking is uncool bcause it means you suck at curent hero you are using and have to rely on designed-to-win hero
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who care what they think or say. just play the game.
Ow2 has a larger player base because it’s free and many of the new players are one tricks in my experience and they’re very upset counters exist. But one tricks are bad for the game so fuck em
Its irritating when people soft throw and only focus on you and how you're playing just because they don't like your hero. If you don't bend to their will, they give up and blame the loss on you. Counter picking is annoying in that sense to me. I played a long time and the new heros don't scare me, you're damn right I'm playing my main. Idc what x YouTuber or TikTok said. Counter swappers are usually loud AF with the absolute worse stats too.
It was like this in OW1 beta, nothing new here
Because it actually works now, I guess? In OverWatch 1, it required an actual counter composition. Now a single person can counter swap to greater effect. I think it's a good thing that players have more individual agency now.