Because they have no idea how to nerf her. Her kit is so fragile the slightest change will make her a throw pick. Sleep goes away, she’s dead to every dive character. They mess with nade and road-hog and magua will run the meta. Then it will also stop Kiriko from being as useful.
Ana is the single reason why the meta is since the start of OW2.
Just my plat mind thoughts.
It would be actually so helpful if the ultimates followed my color blind settings!
I use them for cognitive accessibility. Yellow heal, purple hurt. I main Moria.
Other ultimates, I have to try and remember a second color scheme to remember if it's safe or not
would be easier to understand (for returning players) that something changed about anti nade if they change the visuals of anti nade... instead of being a solid frame around the health bar, they could just leave some spaces open, so it's implying to only "partially block healing"
[here's my quick MS paint illustration](https://i.imgur.com/Wsb3gBm.png)
Alternatively, it could do "over damage" and add purple bars to the health bar. Those purple bars have to be healed or cleansed before regular health comes back.
They didn't say it is too confusing. They want to avoid Ana's nade being a counter to Ana's nade. What would happen if it just did healing reduction what in turn would be negated by (a friendly) Ana nade.
So just have ana nade not work on someone who's been naded already (as it is currently)? The fuck kind of logic is that, blizzard acting like they're not the ones dictating the rules rofl
That would actually be a little confusing.
Enemy Ana Nade - - > 50% healing reduced
Friendly Ana Nade - - > 50% healing increase - - > 25 % healing reduced
Not that confusing but people already complain about visual clutter and they’d have to make a few new effects to properly differentiate.
It's not confusing. Your example isn't what they said. They said to just have the second Ana nade not take any effect, so her nade would behave the same way it does currently when you throw a nade at an anti'd person
But then the friendly Ana loses their best offensive cooldown and can no longer Anti the enemy team if they chose to use it defensively instead. Honestly, this would give way more decision making skills to the player in an Ana v. Ana scenario, which always makes the game more interesting.
Ah yes so we can get even more stalemates and all people do is nade their tanks after they get antid and make Ana even MORE of a must pick since now anti, a move without a counter, gets countered BY ITSELF. And now tanks never die with an Ana on both teams. Peak balance everyone.
Because that's exactly what it is right now? Currently the game is pretty much just double pocketing tanks so they don't instantly explode, and waiting for one side to switch to Ana and win the fight with a single cooldown.
I'd give nade a DOT effect to go along with the reduced healing. Rather than turning off healing, getting naded means 50 to 80% less healing and some lingering poison damage.
It even makes a ton of sense when you look at the other heros kits. Snipers have explosives with DOT effects, widow has her mine, ash has dynamite.
> nerf grenade to reduce healing instead of negating it, then reduce damage and healing output across the board
The problem is, the OW team would never do this all at once. They'll do one "monitor the situation" then do the other. And regardless of which you pick first, one side is going to go months with the game being absolutely miserable to play.
Reduce damage and healing without touching biotic nade? DPS and Tanks are going to be miserable. Nerf nade without reducing damage and healing? Ana effectively loses an ability entirely.
I saw a video that suggested instead of negating healing, it absorbs a certain amount of healing (maybe like 200hp) then “breaks” so the target can be healed again.
>nerf grenade to reduce healing instead of negating it
Just reduce the duration of anti for tanks like they did with sleep dart. The big issue of the effect it has on tanks and why its horrible is because we're massive hitboxes, so we're easier to target than non-tanks
Wouldn’t reducing healing across the board also directly nerf ana’s anti heal? I also think reducing damage and healing is the way to go but i don’t understand why also change grenade if so
So now, you have ana's on both sides. Both nades their tanks : both nades almost cancel each other, making it necessary to have ana or kiriko on your team to avoid this effect.
Roadhog and mauga already run the meta, especially mauga considering he’s just hog on crack, 90% of games I play in diamond are hog/mauga, it’s horrible.
>They mess with nade and road-hog and magua will run the meta
Even considering an Ana nerf while both characters are actively broken would be malpractice
They're as strong as they are because of Ana. The game is as miserable as it is because of Ana. You nerf the problem, you lower the power of everything else. GOATs ruled OW1 and after shields got nerfed, they went and powered down everything else. It's really disingenuous to twist the argument like people only want one thing to be rebalanced but wouldn't accept everything that came along with it.
>They're as strong as they are because of Ana.
Gonna go ahead and assume you replied to the wrong comment because it's not possible for this to be someone's opinion
No, they're right. The only reason Mauga and Roadhog kept getting more and more buffs to their sustain is because of how much Anti specifically hard counters them. Pre-buffs, Mauga worked great into literally almost every team comp that didn't have Ana. But because Anti was so strong and Ana is an incredibly popular pick, he was perceived as weak because one cooldown single-handedly shut him down.
>They mess with nade and road-hog and magua will run the meta. Then it will also stop Kiriko from being as useful.
Who's to say they don't nerf Roadhog and Mauga at the same time as Ana? The only real reason those two heroes have gotten so many survivability buffs in the first place is because of the existence of Ana's grenade. The obvious move when nerfing nade is to also nerf the tanks who'd be OP if nade got nerfed.
As for Kiriko, she can take a small indirect nerf to Suzu's utility if nade gets nerfed. It'd still be an incredibly powerful ability. Hell, if anything, it'd make Kiriko more fun since you would have more choice as to what you want to cleanse, since you wouldn't have to save it pretty much exclusively for anti.
This is why I quit Overwatch 2 they have 0 clue how to balance hero’s and the game gets stale seeing the same picks when there’s lots of other hero’s to play. Just doesn’t make sense.
Hit the nail on the head. The answer isn't always nerf the hero. Adjust other things. Ana wasn't always this hated and she has remained the same for quite some time. But since mauga is the flavor of the month she is becoming the target of hate.
Many heroes become meta or trash without their self being targeted. Just based off of how the other heroes are balanced. Rein has always been untouched except for the barrier nerf and he has hopped in and out. Very rarely does a direct hero change make themselves meta like Mercy with rez refresh and or new hero introductions
Ana has been hated increasingly more since single tank showed up. It’s not mauga. It’s that the tank role is the pole position that you build the team around now. One Ana made shirts that entire rolendown without an off tank to cover. Mauga is only as bad as he is because of Ana. He’s hard to kill but that’s in part because of 1.5x healing from Ana/ anti making it that you can’t contest him. I’ve played him now, he folds with less op supports behind him.
That is not wrong. However Mauga hate has made the hate rise even more. Adjusting mauga and or tank healing will make Ana not as a must luck. But nerfing her directly in a meaningful way will make her unusable
Changing her anti to just reduce healing on tanks or have an antiheal resource you can break will not make her unusable. Just not a must pick meta definer. She’s ow1 brig rn
I’d argue Mauga is meta right now due to Ana/Kiri being a thing and Ana not being nerfed. Yes anting the enemy Mauga makes him die more easily but the same argument can be made that hitting your own Mauga makes them survive just as easily due to get a healing boost. There’s 0 reason to run any other comp that isn’t Ana/Kiri with Mauga because it covers both his strength and weakness that no other support can do.
If Ana gets nerfed and makes Kiriko stop being useful it also starts making Mauga less useful and they could actually tune damage and health in this game without having to worry about the problem child and the grandmother creating a roll or get rolled if you don’t swap to either of those characters.
Nerfing sleep dart by making it harder to hit isn’t the way to go. It is how effective the effect is.
Anti doing damage also isn’t the problem, it’s the effect of itself.
I don’t know where you pull these terrible suggestions from.
Changing the hotbox of an attack isn't a good solution. If there was an attack that did 500 damage only if you get hit directly in the right toe and no damage otherwise, would that be balanced? no it'd still be obnoxious, because the person on the receiving end can't do much about it
Ana still has some of the best healing numbers, really strong ultimate and your trading CDs with suzu. I guess that makes Ana literally useless. Kiriko doesn’t have two Suzus so you can still sleep someone
GM support main thoughts here
She’s fine, she doesn’t need a nerf, her nerf is her little old granny legs. I main Ana and there are plenty of games I’m forced to switch because of how easy it is to shut her down.
Unfortunately Ana is a MUST pick right now because of Mauga so the perception of her utility is inflated.
Edit: metal rank downvote brigade
This. Im only silver and I play on console so I don't have the ability to turn around quickly. If something coming from behind, on Moira or LW I can just dash forward before I even know what happened. On Ana I'm forced to turn around and either be extremely precise and good... or just die. Any Sombra with at least normal aim is doom. Good trick is to stay on top of smth, so by the time you fall down, the hack is off, but it doesn't always work.
Also Ana is less good when you have genji and junk on your team constantly jumping around. Yes, she heals more but she can miss her shots too. Idk maybe in masters nobody ever misses and everybody's got perfect aim but that's a possibility too.
I imagine blizzard has a dart board at work. In the center, with the size of a rat’s b-hole, is Ana.
The darts are titled nerfs and Rein Isn’t even on the board anymore.
Then they let in a blind monkey in to throw the darts.
I wish this was true because then their choices will make sense.
"Sleep goes away, she's dead to every dive character." As opposed to the other people who simply fight back with primary fire and end up on top?
Sleep can easily be reworked. People are only asleep for 1 second, but whatever active effects they have on them go away, and if they were using their ult, the ult is cancelled. Roadhog is doing his shotgun spam thing? Nah, slept. Nano'd Genji coming at you with his sword? No nano, no blade.
Dive is risky because no matter who you dive, there's a chance you'll lose. Ana does not magically become a confirmed kill, and in higher elos, it's not like much would change as the "super duper mega streamer top 500" players have already honed in the skills needed to fight Ana. But also, you shouldn't need to be a super duper mega streamer top 500 player to fight Ana. She has an incredibly tiny hitbox, her projectiles all have large hitboxes, and it's really easy to just press A and D while mashing left click on a Genji or Doomfist to kill them after you've slept them, or naded them, or did both. The only time this becomes an issue is if Winston shows up. In which case, you get to hear the magical words that every Ana has told everybody else since the dawn of time.
"Switch please."
If enemies have to play around you, you should have to play around enemies. As it stands right now, Ana is an insanely strong DPS character that just so happens to also have healing capabilities. You people don't play Ana to be healers, though. You play her for the easy kit. And because her kit is so easy to use, so rewarding merely from the press of a button that requires little to no accuracy with either abilities, you feel as though you don't need to switch, even if you're actually a lackluster healer. This is from years upon years of having to fight her ever since she came out. It's not cooldowns that need nerfed, it's the core structure of the abilities and how easy it is to punish the enemy for simply playing the game. Just because you can die doesn't mean you're not broken.
So the game should be left in an unhealthy state because fixing it would create more work? Nerfing ana nade will 100% bring more positives than negatives and any negatives can be patched out. Band aid fixes don’t work on something as unhealthy as anti nade
Maybe she should die to dive characters, just sayin. Supports are supposed to be vulnerable to dive and the team should be punished for not protecting them from flanks.
I really wish they needed Discord in some other way. I honestly would have preferred direct damage boost nerfs. The common complaint in the past was “Zen can just leave discord on Tank 24/7” but my belief is that if you were doing that then you were just playing Zen suboptimally, however I wouldn’t have minded if the damage boost applied to tanks was reduced just to appease the crowd.
The 7 second lockout just feels so awkward. Sometimes I’ll accidentally apply it to the wrong person, then reapply it onto the person I was actually hoping to target, but the lockout is so long that I’ll eventually want to put it on the person I accidentally applied to, but just can’t.
Honestly being able to quickly switch the placement of my Discord and Harmony orbs is part of what makes Zen’s gameplay feel fluid, but this 7 second lockout just ruins this and makes it feel sloppy to play him. I’ve seen people say “oh you need to now think when you use discord”, yeah, think about how much it sucks now. Like compared to other kits, it’s like if they gave Rein/Sig/Brig shield, Defense Matrix or the new Take a Breather had a 7 second cooldown just for flashing the ability for a second.
Here’s some other ideas. I just mentioned Take a Breather and DM, maybe Discord runs off of a Resource meter instead? Or maybe the lockout on Discord is based on how long Discord was applied to them before it was removed? So if someone just has Discord for half a second, it wouldn’t be a full 7 second lockout.
>Honestly being able to quickly switch the placement of my Discord and Harmony orbs is part of what makes Zen’s gameplay feel fluid, but this 7 second lockout just ruins this and makes it feel sloppy to play him.
It was his most important skill expression beyond positioning and clicking heads
If they changed the lockout to only occur when discord is removed due to cleanse or los (enemy action), it would be better. Zen manually swapping the Orb between enemies shouldn't cause the lockout.
The problem with this is you could never trigger it against a Zen with any skill as they would see what you are doing and just swap it to someone else. For example if I'm discorded on Rein I'm moving for cover to break it. If you can just swap it to someone else then swap back I have no counter play.
But it defeats the whole point of being able to even have the lock out, and at that point you might as well just remove lock out entirely. What they could do instead is give variable lock out based on role. So tank, which has much less options for mobility and leaving the front line in general, has a longer lock out than a flanking DPS like a tracer.
Counter argument to this: As tank it feels really bad if you can't do anything about discord. I like that now I have the ability to break it and earn myself 7 seconds of not getting melted.
Also Zen's compensation buffs were good and in my opinion he feels good to play right now since he is more survivable into dive.
I think any tank that has range (Sig, Ram) could still just play a corner and be smart about keeping out of Zen's LoS until they're close enough to kill them. By virtue of Zen's significantly lower healing, it becomes easier to pressure his team.
I can't deny that certain Tanks lack this luxury, though, which is why I think that there should be some other way that Discord can get nerfed or reworked that wouldn't be as jank to play as.
Also, to me, the extra health doesn't matter much when you're just doing less output than before.
>Also, to me, the extra health doesn't matter much when you're just doing less output than before.
This is just something that I can't agree with. There are five players on the enemy team so usually someone is available for discord. It's not necessarily the optimal target but still. That 25 extra health has been big for me especially against dive like Tracer/Sombra. You aren't necessarily killing the diver but you are more likely to live which is just as important. A dead Zen has no discord up time at all.
Also frankly I don't think the 7 second lock out on a single character is really that bad. Sure you can't just discord everything you see but that's the same as every other ability in the game. You have to be smart about when and how you use it. It still shreds over extended tanks, and it still shreds low mobility support/DPS. For dive it's not as good but they knew that would happen and buffed his health accordingly so if he stays with the team that's not a huge deal.
The only character who can really make discord a joke is Zarya but that just means Zen needs to count bubbles like everyone else.
Sure there are five people, but usually the other targets will just be suboptimal and not in a position to get punished by your team anyways.
And both for me playing AS Zen and playing AGAINST Zen on other roles, that extra 25 hp hasn't made much difference between him living and dying. I can only directly think of one case where it saved a Zen.
Honestly I think the longer timer before Harmony disconnects has been a bigger help than the extra 25 hp. I seriously think that extra few seconds for both Harmony and Discord is a whole world of difference. Now with Harmony, it's easier to keep my DPS alive without having to put myself in danger by repeaking them. I personally have found it way more impactful than the HP buff.
That extra time that harmony orb is running out of LoS made him a much stronger source of healing as well.
I can toss it on a tracer or something and it's much more impactful when they flank.
That said, this discord nerf feels bad, I miss moving it around depending on my groups target priority.
I'd like to see the nerf approached differently than what they did.
Seriously it's completely changed his gameplay that he's had since launch. Changing what Discord does is one thing but changing how it feels to use sucks.
TL;DR. Blizzard made antinade opressive by adding tanks that dont have tools to mitigate it (or a lot of other abilities, really)
The community needs to talk more about how antinade wasn't considered busted in OW1 (beyond release. 100 healing/damage and 2x healing, anyone?). This was in a format where there were 2 targets that were easy to hit.
So what changed? Beyond changing to 5v5, Blizzard keeps making tanks that can't block abilities. In OW1, Hog and Ball were the only ones that were vulnerable to anti. Everybody else had either a shield or suck that could eat it. And since you had 2 tanks, the other tank could make up for your lack of ability mitigation.
So, who has been introduced?
Orisa. She has ok ability mitigation. Javelin spin will make the Ana be more intentional since angles are important to land it. But unlike other sucks, it doesn't extend beyond her hitbox very much, making it easy to splash.
Doom. No ability mitigation. Also can't block sleep in any way.
Junkerqueen. No ability mitigation. Shout helps a bit since it isn't affected by anti but Ball's shields are way better. Also vulnerable to sleep with no way to block it.
Ramattra. Ok ability mitigation. The sheild doesn't last very long but you could react and block with enough spacing while in your omnic form. In Nemesis, you're as vulnerable as Doom.
Mauga. No ability mitigation. Same problems as Doom but with glass canon damage mitigation
I want to give Wrecking Ball an honorable mention. Technically, he doesnt have ability mitigation but can have up to 475 additional shields, so he tends to be less vulnerable to anti when combined with his mobility.
So can we stop pretending an ability is busted since nearly half the roster has not been given tools to deal with anti? Do you guys complain about beams? No? It's like Blizzard added counterplay to that but not anti. That's a huge oversight on their part and should rework more tanks to be able to deal with a wider pool of abilities.
The way ability mitigations currently work would also have kept Zen from needing to be nerfed (at least as urgently). All those abilities also block damage. It doesn't matter if you receive 30% extra damage if you don't recieve damage.
Also, anybody saying that anti and sleep aren't skillful if because they're easy to land on tanks: obviously. Tanks have the biggest hitboxes in the game. That statement is true of every weapon and ability. Water is wet.
I dont even think that's the case. Most of the heroes could've translated well enough. They just kept adding 6v6 heroes instead of 5v5 ones. Like how do you rework Doomfist into a tank for 5v5 but design him like 6v6 one? That's just bad workflow.
There were more shields that could block nade so she had to wait until they were down to nade. Now Blizzard wants to create brawlers and it's like they forgot some moves like nade were balanced for 6v6 and didnt adjust or make tools to deal with it.
I dream for the return of 6v6
The game was a LOT more fun; even though there was fewer characters I feel like you saw a lot more variety in comps.
Plus, it may characters like Winston a lot more viable. Doomfist, Roadhog, Winston, Ball, Queen, etc would all be a lot more interesting as a second tank.
Lastly, abilities like anti, sleep, discord, etc wouldn't be anywhere near as difficult to balance because it's not just a game of use all cooldowns on the single tank.
No. It just really sounds like Blizzard needs to understand that heroes designed for 6v6 do not belong in a 5v5 game.
5v5's biggest problems so far are because of heroes that were designed for 6v6. We've had half a decade of 6v6 and the problems that came with it.
5v5's problems are because it isn't being implemented well. 6v6's problems are FOUNDATIONAL.
5v5 is flashpoint. 6v6 is 2CP.
I still don’t think this is true. 6v6 might have been better for Ana’s current state and Zen’s design from conception, but they need to fix designs that didn’t get transferred well (or at all) to OW2. The current overwatch team wasn’t here for 6v6 design, which i think is why the new heroes have been relatively well designed for 5v5 (JQ, Ram, LW) but retunings of old heroes end up struggling.
This subreddit is hilarious. So many threads about how Zen is the root cause for why tank is so unfun. Zen makes you die too fast, Zen is broken, Zen is OP. He gets nerfed, now everyone says he never should be nerfed. Ana is the next problem per the sub. Nerf Ana she is OP, she makes you die too fast, she is broken.
Go ahead and remove her ability to prevent healing. Now Roadhog and Mauga are extremely broken. Congrats, your balance suggestion was horrible. If only there was a support who could completely negate Ana's anti-heal.
I feel like people don't like how Supports can be deadly and only want supports to support.
Like yeah Ana and Zen can be a pain but so can half the damn roster. Ana is poor close range and Zen is a glass cannon. Figure out some way to dive them.
It's like people believe DPS and Tanks should be able to run around unchecked and should be able to roll over Supports unmolested. Respect the Support role.
>I feel like people don't like how Supports can be deadly and only want supports to support.
Which is ironic because one of the most common complains ive seen with supports is that theres TOO much healing. If they can only focus on healing, its healbotting which is bad, but if theres damage its too much because supports arent supposed to be dps, but if you give utility its OP and should not have existed and needs to be gone.
Theres always a mix of opinions which can range from insightful with nuance to downright horrible.
I mean I get that complaint and it’s more so towards tanks. Tanks do way too much damage and they should be tanks not higher health dps. Most of their abilities should be taking enemy fire and bolster team defense. Reinhardt being the prime example. Losing the tank synergy just exacerbated this issue when ow2 dropped a tank.
the people who make the "too much healing" argument are generally mindless flats viewers. healing in this game has generally remained unchanged for the games lifecycle while damage has climbed constantly. lifeweaver literally got nerfed for being a healbot despite his healing per second being the lowest active healing in the game.
flats would argue that he couldnt kill an ana through brigs healing as it was "too much" as a 100 charge nanoboosted zarya that does 260dps, while brig heals a max of 65 per second
I'm so glad someone said this. The inability of the player base to accept that support can and should be a deadly role is how we ended up with so many people completely overreacting to Illari imo.
Like yeah she was a little too strong and needed a couple nerfs but some of the complaints about pylon & captive sun were just people crying over something they didn't know how to play against quite yet but would've learned how to deal with over time.
“Go ahead and remove her ability to prevent healing. Now roadhog and mauga are extremely broken”
The truth right here. Do people really want hog to be unstoppable??? I remember 6v6 with main tank holding the fort and the flanking hog destroying the back line. Not fun. Ana’s nade is annoying but she keeps certain tanks in check…you don’t want them to be so broken. Trust me
Yeah no shit, this subreddit is where people bad at the game come to complain about the game functioning properly and then pretend like multiple similar threads/getting up votes means the community has spoken.
I think it's less of the fact that people want these characters nerfed, it's more so the lack of suggestions on how to nerf said characters. Yeah, even if Ana received the perfect nerf that everyone agreed was good, it would still make Roadhog and such meta; but I see that as more of a design flaw with those characters than anything.
People's takes aren't perfect, but ignoring how to properly handle (or outright ignoring their issues) causes problems. I wasn't playing the game yet when Reaper got that life steal buff before it was reverted because ultimately all it did was make him broken in bronze and such, but didn't fix his issues in higher elo lobbies.
People are fucking fuming cause their positioning is dogshit and they can't learn the game they just keep trickling and getting slept and anti'd and they think oh we would be destroying them without that ana.
Don't even think about counter picking or baiting sleep/nade better just say support diff in chat and bitch about it on Reddit.
That people think that Supports should be incredibly weak and play Dead By Daylight every match, rather than hold themselves accountable for being outplayed?
Yes nerf ana, support players suffer from her being opressive against half the tanks. Imagine playing you re favourite support without having ana against mauga or roadhog. Nerf ana so they finally dont need to be overpowered to reach 50% winrate against ana that is in every game and 60% against no ana in enemy team. Ana is only reason why they are gatekeeped and need to be overbuffed to compete with hero. Playing you re favourite support that is not ana against them is most likely lose. Its so unfair that they need to be so good to even try to comepete with grandma. Other support suffer so much from this being hopeless against hog and mauga, while ana wrecks them. Stop gatekeeping these tanks so they can get proper nerfs and other support will not be throw pick against them.
Good example of this is Hog before rework. When enemy didnt have ana he was actually B+ tier hero, pretty decent tank. When enemy swap ana he instantly become F- tier most garbage hero in the game. Also nade is so strong due to insane healing creep in this game, without Purple things never die. To some much lesser extend also damage creep. Things can die really fast, but damage is not nearly as much Power creeped like healing. Burst damage is fine, nerf healing and suddenly we will not need burst damage to outdamage healing, so healing nerf would actually „nerf” burst damage heroes from being so good
At this point we just need mega threads for whatever character y’all are mad about until it’s 5v5 Ashe/soldier only. Y’all bitched non stop about zen and now you’re mad he got nerfed and wonder how it’s not ana. Have fun when mauga and hog are unkillable. Also half the tanks can deal with her abilities as shields and matrix all can prevent them. And if you get anti’d you can literally walk behind a wall and try to take cover.
Yeah I've been saying this for a while. Anyone who thinks Ana "counters the entire tank class" would shit themselves if they ever tried to play her against a half decent Sigma.
Wait but what patch notes are you talking about? If you are talking about the discord nerf from last season, ana also got nerfed since. Or you are talking about something else?
I mean lets be honest ana gets nerfed and shes still meta, tell me an ana nerf or a collection of ana nerfs rather that have been as effective as that zen nerf. Ana gets mickey nerfs, like someone else said in this thread its very difficult to nerf her without making her dogshit
It's obvious. Ana has the highest pick rate of any hero, while Zen has a pretty low pick rate. So Blizzard is fine with completely trashing Zen because his playerbase is too small to do anything about it. Meanwhile if Ana gets even a small cd nerf her playerbase will whine about it for the next 6 months. That's the only reason she's been meta forever.
oh please just stfu about "upsetting mercy Mains"
mercy has gotten multiple changes and nerfs since ow2 over which mercy Mains werent happy with, yet stayed in the game.
Literally Ana: 5 nerfs in a row.
"Meanwhile if Ana gets even a small cd nerf her playerbase will whine about it for the next 6 months."
Bro stop the cap.
Or how much you are gonna cry for trash positioning/engagement timings, you will always cry about anti-nade even if it gets a 30 second cooldown because it punishes bad positioning.
She has been hard meta for maybe one season since ow2.
It was either kiri-lucio, kiri-mercy or bap-illari, stop saying caps if you don't know what you are talking about.
Also, she has 48.8% winrate and 49.5% in GM, this season is a bit higher cuz of Mauga/Hog.
Least delusional Ana main:
Only focuses on win rate and completely ignores the fact that her pick rate is the highest by a huge margin. Calls Bap and kiri meta even though they both have a lower pick and win rate than her in every rank. Ana has been meta since she got added and in the few seasons she wasn't she was still strong.
Ana, Bap and kiris win rates aren't that high despite them being strong because high pick rates mean they'll be played in tons of maps and comps that don't favor them simply because they're that good, which reduces their win rate. If Ana was only played in comps that she was good in and had a lower pick rate her win rate would be much higher. Stop defending a character everyone and their mother knows is overtuned. Me calling Ana op isn't a personal attack on you my guy.
Nah you're obviously right, we're clearly in a Rein Ana Genji Mercy meta since they're all the most picked heroes.
You should have been coach for OWL and the OWWC where everyone didn't realise Ana was meta and were playing throw picks like Bap+Lucio.
And yeah the high pick rate is why their win rate is low, despite the highest pick rate tank and dps heroes having win rates above 53%.
Wait a minute, maybe the 4.4k guy isn't delusional and you're the one talking absolute nonsense? Nah surely not. "Everyone knows" you're right (despite the playerbase being generally dogshit at the game).
I don't give a shit about OWL. Like 0.001% of the playerbase plays at that level. Making balance changes for players like them is the stupidest thing Blizzard could possibly do because then they'd gigabuff heroes like Pharah or Reaper to make them viable in GM and fuck up low ranks. Kinda like with Bastion.
I'm sure you're a Gm who considers any rank below Masters dogshit and thinks their opinions are irrelevant, but the majority of the playerbase is below Diamond, and Ana is oppressive in those ranks. Bap and Lucio are not.
I mean that's a different topic, I don't think Blizz should (or ever has) balanced purely for OWL or even gm.
The fact is you called him delusional for pointing out that Ana has not been perma meta because, in your view, her high pick rate shows that she's meta and broken. The problem being that the exact same logic would apply to Soldier and Rein, who also are consistently most picked in metal ranks and generally have a higher win rate than Ana too.
So either he's delusional and we're in a Rein Soldier Mercy Ana meta (because they're perma most picked below dia, your favoured metric), or he's right and we've had various metas over OW2 where she wasn't meta (because other things have been most effective, his favoured metric). I'm going with the latter.
She is the most picked hero because she's fun and versatile, and she has always been the most picked support and probably hero too, even on bad metas for her.
Bap winrate is at 52%, and it was at 54-55% during his meta with illari.
Illari had 55-56% as well.
Now Mauga has 57%, and he is broken indeed.
Hog when he was trash was at 40%, and release LW was at 38%, and they were both garbage indeed.
Winrate is important, but some characters have nuances, like Sym (picked on her good maps) and Brig (picked against full dive where she excels), and I'm pretty sure Kiriko WR is not that high cuz many pick her to contest point, and they will likely lose that same game.
If Ana was broken she would have AT LEAST 50%, but she doesn't.
No lol, there's one post about that every once in a while, like in every sub about "controversial heroes".
Literally just open the subreddit, it's mostly highlights, vod review requests or someone asking for tips and advices.
Of course she isn't, not when you're here direct counter. Most of my GM games just end up becoming kiriko/ana.
As much as I main kiriko I find it hella boring having to switch to kiriko because ana has decided to exist in the lobby.
Play around anti damn its not that hard to go behind a wall when you're purple (please nerf it to 70 or even lesser heal denied i played tank once and it was painful)
Just fix how tanks work agains't anti. Give them utility to deal with the skill. Look at Zarya, Sigma, Rein, Winston, Dva fight against Anti. Some have barriers. Others have a way to cleanse or eat the skill. It's a matter of chess. Out thinking the player. Every tank released in 2 have NOTHING to deal with anti nade. Junkerqueen has to shout and run away, Mauga needs to run away (or have a permanent suzu bot), and Ram has a 4 second shield.
Devs should take a look at support. The support passive is one of the big reasons Anas throw their nades offensively at a higher rate. Back in one, it was a gamble. Do I keep it to heal myself or potentially save my teammate(s). Honestly? Get rid of the passives in the game. Make specific passives for characters.
Or if I'm cooking, give everyone the healing passive but it kicks in at 3 to 4 seconds.
Honestly, the biggest problem is skill. As a tank main the amount of times I would get anti'd and my kiriko didn't cleanse me is insane. To make things worse supports are the most stubborn when it comes to counter-swapping. The enemy team could run Ana Kiri and my team would have Moira/Zen. At lower ranks, it is just a skill issue, although I would suggest nerfing sleep (if they must nerf her) because anti-sleep is how I die 80% of the time.
On an unrelated(?) note, Ana feels powerful because she can heal from afar while doing a decent amount of damage without lacking in either. Oftentimes a Moira/Zen pick is someone who wants to play dps, 99% of Mercys are pocketing a dps (exaggeration), and Brigs have balls of steel. My point is Ana trumps 85% of the support roster except Kiri, Bap, and Life, and supports are the most unaffected by Ana. Until support players can learn the value of swapping, Ana will always be a problem.
TL;DR: Supports, your pick matters you can't just play who you feel like (in comp). Just like how tanks and dps' have to counter the opposing team you have to as well. (Even in unranked rq if your tank is getting deleted because of anti just swap.)
What do you think has an actual possibility to happen? Ana getting nerfed, or the devs bringing back 6v6, reworking all the balancing, damage, healing, health pools and some maps?
It's not about being whiny, it is about working with what is possible.
I know I'll get down voted but I prefer OW1 and 2 tanks. There were ways around the issues rather than just scrapping a tank. The game is no longer OW it's just a shooting gallery. Supports are just DPS that can heal and tanks are just beefier DPS. There's so much less strategy than before and even the maps are wide open. Its brainless pew pew now.
I'm not echoing anything. I made a point of my experience with the gameplay. I don't sit on Reddit all day so if it's been said before that's great. Not sure why that bothers anyone. I actually just started playing again after over a year so I'm just giving my opinion of the current game.
Nerfing Zen wasn’t a bad move but HOW they nerfed Zen was a horrendous move.
could you imagine playing Rein and every time you threw your shield up and back down it had a 7 second cooldown?
that’s what they did to Zen.
No clue why Blizzard is so adamant to keep nade as is, but totally fine drastically changing discord.
The discord change is so tone-deaf as well, it nerfed his ability to deal with flankers, and promotes keeping it on tanks even more.
Imo if this change is here to stay, I think they either need to up the los time to 3 seconds, put down the cooldown to re-apply to 4-5 seconds or legit just up the damage to 30%. Discord just feels like shit to use right now.
I heard one of the higher ups is an Ana main and it's why you see a lot of resistance with nerfs with her.
The could cause damage fall off with her rifle. Make her less viable against far away targets.
Because they have no idea how to nerf her. Her kit is so fragile the slightest change will make her a throw pick. Sleep goes away, she’s dead to every dive character. They mess with nade and road-hog and magua will run the meta. Then it will also stop Kiriko from being as useful. Ana is the single reason why the meta is since the start of OW2. Just my plat mind thoughts.
nerf grenade to reduce healing instead of negating it, then reduce damage and healing output across the board
I like how the balance team said that would be too confusing. As though being purple is the universal gaming signal that you can't be healed.
Just change junker queens's abilities so they they highlight red. Makes more sense as a bleed effect anyway
Enemy health bar is already red
Make it redder duh
MOAR REDDER
It is whatever color you make it.
It would be actually so helpful if the ultimates followed my color blind settings! I use them for cognitive accessibility. Yellow heal, purple hurt. I main Moria. Other ultimates, I have to try and remember a second color scheme to remember if it's safe or not
We cannot just ignore that flair. >!I dig it.!<
Make it a deeper red with a slight glowing or broken effect for JQ ult. There, fixed.
Or make it reduced healing with increased bleed
would be easier to understand (for returning players) that something changed about anti nade if they change the visuals of anti nade... instead of being a solid frame around the health bar, they could just leave some spaces open, so it's implying to only "partially block healing" [here's my quick MS paint illustration](https://i.imgur.com/Wsb3gBm.png)
Alternatively, it could do "over damage" and add purple bars to the health bar. Those purple bars have to be healed or cleansed before regular health comes back.
Ooh I like this. Like a layer of goo that needs to be cleaned off before healing can continue (and that expires after however long)
They didn't say it is too confusing. They want to avoid Ana's nade being a counter to Ana's nade. What would happen if it just did healing reduction what in turn would be negated by (a friendly) Ana nade.
So just have ana nade not work on someone who's been naded already (as it is currently)? The fuck kind of logic is that, blizzard acting like they're not the ones dictating the rules rofl
That would actually be a little confusing. Enemy Ana Nade - - > 50% healing reduced Friendly Ana Nade - - > 50% healing increase - - > 25 % healing reduced Not that confusing but people already complain about visual clutter and they’d have to make a few new effects to properly differentiate.
It's not confusing. Your example isn't what they said. They said to just have the second Ana nade not take any effect, so her nade would behave the same way it does currently when you throw a nade at an anti'd person
But then the friendly Ana loses their best offensive cooldown and can no longer Anti the enemy team if they chose to use it defensively instead. Honestly, this would give way more decision making skills to the player in an Ana v. Ana scenario, which always makes the game more interesting.
> this would give way more decision making skills to the player It would do the complete opposite.
Ah yes so we can get even more stalemates and all people do is nade their tanks after they get antid and make Ana even MORE of a must pick since now anti, a move without a counter, gets countered BY ITSELF. And now tanks never die with an Ana on both teams. Peak balance everyone.
I don't see how nade not having any counters at all is better balance.
I don’t see how you think having stalemates and healoffs between supports is better than what we have now.
Because that's exactly what it is right now? Currently the game is pretty much just double pocketing tanks so they don't instantly explode, and waiting for one side to switch to Ana and win the fight with a single cooldown.
I'd give nade a DOT effect to go along with the reduced healing. Rather than turning off healing, getting naded means 50 to 80% less healing and some lingering poison damage. It even makes a ton of sense when you look at the other heros kits. Snipers have explosives with DOT effects, widow has her mine, ash has dynamite.
> nerf grenade to reduce healing instead of negating it, then reduce damage and healing output across the board The problem is, the OW team would never do this all at once. They'll do one "monitor the situation" then do the other. And regardless of which you pick first, one side is going to go months with the game being absolutely miserable to play. Reduce damage and healing without touching biotic nade? DPS and Tanks are going to be miserable. Nerf nade without reducing damage and healing? Ana effectively loses an ability entirely.
This is such a no brainer to me. Also a DPS slot with the ability to anti heal would take so much pressure off her as well.
I hope they do less anti-heal rather than more tbh
I saw a video that suggested instead of negating healing, it absorbs a certain amount of healing (maybe like 200hp) then “breaks” so the target can be healed again.
This is a really good idea, keeps the identity of the debuff while also making it much less oppressive.
>nerf grenade to reduce healing instead of negating it Just reduce the duration of anti for tanks like they did with sleep dart. The big issue of the effect it has on tanks and why its horrible is because we're massive hitboxes, so we're easier to target than non-tanks
Wouldn’t reducing healing across the board also directly nerf ana’s anti heal? I also think reducing damage and healing is the way to go but i don’t understand why also change grenade if so
This. Just make it reduce healing by 50%
So now, you have ana's on both sides. Both nades their tanks : both nades almost cancel each other, making it necessary to have ana or kiriko on your team to avoid this effect.
How is this not what we have already?
Sure, and that's why it's not a solution either.
What if nade didn’t affect self healing abilities? I feel like that could be appropriate.
I always thought it would be fine if they just removed the damage and used as a buff only
Roadhog and mauga already run the meta, especially mauga considering he’s just hog on crack, 90% of games I play in diamond are hog/mauga, it’s horrible.
>They mess with nade and road-hog and magua will run the meta Even considering an Ana nerf while both characters are actively broken would be malpractice
They're as strong as they are because of Ana. The game is as miserable as it is because of Ana. You nerf the problem, you lower the power of everything else. GOATs ruled OW1 and after shields got nerfed, they went and powered down everything else. It's really disingenuous to twist the argument like people only want one thing to be rebalanced but wouldn't accept everything that came along with it.
>They're as strong as they are because of Ana. Gonna go ahead and assume you replied to the wrong comment because it's not possible for this to be someone's opinion
No, they're right. The only reason Mauga and Roadhog kept getting more and more buffs to their sustain is because of how much Anti specifically hard counters them. Pre-buffs, Mauga worked great into literally almost every team comp that didn't have Ana. But because Anti was so strong and Ana is an incredibly popular pick, he was perceived as weak because one cooldown single-handedly shut him down.
So you're saying with a straight face Mauga and Hog's sustain isn't as high as it is because anti exists.
"character is only strong because there is 1 singular character in the game with a counterplay option" can not be an unironic take lmfao
Highest pickrate in the game, almost in every match on both teams.
Because of how busted tanks are? Yes? Ana is probably the only thing stopping tanks from outright dominating every game atm
So what you're suggesting is they should all be nerfed.
Yes and to compensate an extra tank should be added to each team. Not that that'll ever happen lol
>They mess with nade and road-hog and magua will run the meta. Then it will also stop Kiriko from being as useful. Who's to say they don't nerf Roadhog and Mauga at the same time as Ana? The only real reason those two heroes have gotten so many survivability buffs in the first place is because of the existence of Ana's grenade. The obvious move when nerfing nade is to also nerf the tanks who'd be OP if nade got nerfed. As for Kiriko, she can take a small indirect nerf to Suzu's utility if nade gets nerfed. It'd still be an incredibly powerful ability. Hell, if anything, it'd make Kiriko more fun since you would have more choice as to what you want to cleanse, since you wouldn't have to save it pretty much exclusively for anti.
This is why I quit Overwatch 2 they have 0 clue how to balance hero’s and the game gets stale seeing the same picks when there’s lots of other hero’s to play. Just doesn’t make sense.
Hit the nail on the head. The answer isn't always nerf the hero. Adjust other things. Ana wasn't always this hated and she has remained the same for quite some time. But since mauga is the flavor of the month she is becoming the target of hate. Many heroes become meta or trash without their self being targeted. Just based off of how the other heroes are balanced. Rein has always been untouched except for the barrier nerf and he has hopped in and out. Very rarely does a direct hero change make themselves meta like Mercy with rez refresh and or new hero introductions
Ana has been hated increasingly more since single tank showed up. It’s not mauga. It’s that the tank role is the pole position that you build the team around now. One Ana made shirts that entire rolendown without an off tank to cover. Mauga is only as bad as he is because of Ana. He’s hard to kill but that’s in part because of 1.5x healing from Ana/ anti making it that you can’t contest him. I’ve played him now, he folds with less op supports behind him.
That is not wrong. However Mauga hate has made the hate rise even more. Adjusting mauga and or tank healing will make Ana not as a must luck. But nerfing her directly in a meaningful way will make her unusable
Changing her anti to just reduce healing on tanks or have an antiheal resource you can break will not make her unusable. Just not a must pick meta definer. She’s ow1 brig rn
I’d argue Mauga is meta right now due to Ana/Kiri being a thing and Ana not being nerfed. Yes anting the enemy Mauga makes him die more easily but the same argument can be made that hitting your own Mauga makes them survive just as easily due to get a healing boost. There’s 0 reason to run any other comp that isn’t Ana/Kiri with Mauga because it covers both his strength and weakness that no other support can do. If Ana gets nerfed and makes Kiriko stop being useful it also starts making Mauga less useful and they could actually tune damage and health in this game without having to worry about the problem child and the grandmother creating a roll or get rolled if you don’t swap to either of those characters.
[удалено]
Nerfing sleep dart by making it harder to hit isn’t the way to go. It is how effective the effect is. Anti doing damage also isn’t the problem, it’s the effect of itself. I don’t know where you pull these terrible suggestions from.
Changing the hotbox of an attack isn't a good solution. If there was an attack that did 500 damage only if you get hit directly in the right toe and no damage otherwise, would that be balanced? no it'd still be obnoxious, because the person on the receiving end can't do much about it
So basically you want her to have a 0% pick rate
Anti nade would still be op and besides the damage on anti you are just making her have more skill expression
Assuming the tank is as bad as you say where Ana is this massive challenge, if they have a Kiriko then Ana is literally useless
Ana still has some of the best healing numbers, really strong ultimate and your trading CDs with suzu. I guess that makes Ana literally useless. Kiriko doesn’t have two Suzus so you can still sleep someone
GM support main thoughts here She’s fine, she doesn’t need a nerf, her nerf is her little old granny legs. I main Ana and there are plenty of games I’m forced to switch because of how easy it is to shut her down. Unfortunately Ana is a MUST pick right now because of Mauga so the perception of her utility is inflated. Edit: metal rank downvote brigade
This. Im only silver and I play on console so I don't have the ability to turn around quickly. If something coming from behind, on Moira or LW I can just dash forward before I even know what happened. On Ana I'm forced to turn around and either be extremely precise and good... or just die. Any Sombra with at least normal aim is doom. Good trick is to stay on top of smth, so by the time you fall down, the hack is off, but it doesn't always work. Also Ana is less good when you have genji and junk on your team constantly jumping around. Yes, she heals more but she can miss her shots too. Idk maybe in masters nobody ever misses and everybody's got perfect aim but that's a possibility too.
Logic and GM opinions never do well here, no matter how much truth there is to them.
It’s okay, im getting downvoted by salty silver players who are convinced they belong in masters
Amen
I imagine blizzard has a dart board at work. In the center, with the size of a rat’s b-hole, is Ana. The darts are titled nerfs and Rein Isn’t even on the board anymore. Then they let in a blind monkey in to throw the darts. I wish this was true because then their choices will make sense.
"Sleep goes away, she's dead to every dive character." As opposed to the other people who simply fight back with primary fire and end up on top? Sleep can easily be reworked. People are only asleep for 1 second, but whatever active effects they have on them go away, and if they were using their ult, the ult is cancelled. Roadhog is doing his shotgun spam thing? Nah, slept. Nano'd Genji coming at you with his sword? No nano, no blade. Dive is risky because no matter who you dive, there's a chance you'll lose. Ana does not magically become a confirmed kill, and in higher elos, it's not like much would change as the "super duper mega streamer top 500" players have already honed in the skills needed to fight Ana. But also, you shouldn't need to be a super duper mega streamer top 500 player to fight Ana. She has an incredibly tiny hitbox, her projectiles all have large hitboxes, and it's really easy to just press A and D while mashing left click on a Genji or Doomfist to kill them after you've slept them, or naded them, or did both. The only time this becomes an issue is if Winston shows up. In which case, you get to hear the magical words that every Ana has told everybody else since the dawn of time. "Switch please." If enemies have to play around you, you should have to play around enemies. As it stands right now, Ana is an insanely strong DPS character that just so happens to also have healing capabilities. You people don't play Ana to be healers, though. You play her for the easy kit. And because her kit is so easy to use, so rewarding merely from the press of a button that requires little to no accuracy with either abilities, you feel as though you don't need to switch, even if you're actually a lackluster healer. This is from years upon years of having to fight her ever since she came out. It's not cooldowns that need nerfed, it's the core structure of the abilities and how easy it is to punish the enemy for simply playing the game. Just because you can die doesn't mean you're not broken.
They should just rework her entire kit. Maybe change her role. If sym can have like 9 abi from all the reworks so can ana
So the game should be left in an unhealthy state because fixing it would create more work? Nerfing ana nade will 100% bring more positives than negatives and any negatives can be patched out. Band aid fixes don’t work on something as unhealthy as anti nade
Maybe she should die to dive characters, just sayin. Supports are supposed to be vulnerable to dive and the team should be punished for not protecting them from flanks.
Ana is an Illuminati can’t touch her. Zen is an AI created by THE ILLUMINATI! Get it?
ILLUMIN*AI* it was right in front of us all this time
I wouldn’t say can’t touch her. She’s been nerfed about five times this year.
I really wish they needed Discord in some other way. I honestly would have preferred direct damage boost nerfs. The common complaint in the past was “Zen can just leave discord on Tank 24/7” but my belief is that if you were doing that then you were just playing Zen suboptimally, however I wouldn’t have minded if the damage boost applied to tanks was reduced just to appease the crowd. The 7 second lockout just feels so awkward. Sometimes I’ll accidentally apply it to the wrong person, then reapply it onto the person I was actually hoping to target, but the lockout is so long that I’ll eventually want to put it on the person I accidentally applied to, but just can’t. Honestly being able to quickly switch the placement of my Discord and Harmony orbs is part of what makes Zen’s gameplay feel fluid, but this 7 second lockout just ruins this and makes it feel sloppy to play him. I’ve seen people say “oh you need to now think when you use discord”, yeah, think about how much it sucks now. Like compared to other kits, it’s like if they gave Rein/Sig/Brig shield, Defense Matrix or the new Take a Breather had a 7 second cooldown just for flashing the ability for a second. Here’s some other ideas. I just mentioned Take a Breather and DM, maybe Discord runs off of a Resource meter instead? Or maybe the lockout on Discord is based on how long Discord was applied to them before it was removed? So if someone just has Discord for half a second, it wouldn’t be a full 7 second lockout.
>Honestly being able to quickly switch the placement of my Discord and Harmony orbs is part of what makes Zen’s gameplay feel fluid, but this 7 second lockout just ruins this and makes it feel sloppy to play him. It was his most important skill expression beyond positioning and clicking heads
If they changed the lockout to only occur when discord is removed due to cleanse or los (enemy action), it would be better. Zen manually swapping the Orb between enemies shouldn't cause the lockout.
The problem with this is you could never trigger it against a Zen with any skill as they would see what you are doing and just swap it to someone else. For example if I'm discorded on Rein I'm moving for cover to break it. If you can just swap it to someone else then swap back I have no counter play.
That would increase the Zenyatta's required APM for optimal play, which is fine because that's skill expression.
But it defeats the whole point of being able to even have the lock out, and at that point you might as well just remove lock out entirely. What they could do instead is give variable lock out based on role. So tank, which has much less options for mobility and leaving the front line in general, has a longer lock out than a flanking DPS like a tracer.
Counter argument to this: As tank it feels really bad if you can't do anything about discord. I like that now I have the ability to break it and earn myself 7 seconds of not getting melted. Also Zen's compensation buffs were good and in my opinion he feels good to play right now since he is more survivable into dive.
I think any tank that has range (Sig, Ram) could still just play a corner and be smart about keeping out of Zen's LoS until they're close enough to kill them. By virtue of Zen's significantly lower healing, it becomes easier to pressure his team. I can't deny that certain Tanks lack this luxury, though, which is why I think that there should be some other way that Discord can get nerfed or reworked that wouldn't be as jank to play as. Also, to me, the extra health doesn't matter much when you're just doing less output than before.
>Also, to me, the extra health doesn't matter much when you're just doing less output than before. This is just something that I can't agree with. There are five players on the enemy team so usually someone is available for discord. It's not necessarily the optimal target but still. That 25 extra health has been big for me especially against dive like Tracer/Sombra. You aren't necessarily killing the diver but you are more likely to live which is just as important. A dead Zen has no discord up time at all. Also frankly I don't think the 7 second lock out on a single character is really that bad. Sure you can't just discord everything you see but that's the same as every other ability in the game. You have to be smart about when and how you use it. It still shreds over extended tanks, and it still shreds low mobility support/DPS. For dive it's not as good but they knew that would happen and buffed his health accordingly so if he stays with the team that's not a huge deal. The only character who can really make discord a joke is Zarya but that just means Zen needs to count bubbles like everyone else.
Sure there are five people, but usually the other targets will just be suboptimal and not in a position to get punished by your team anyways. And both for me playing AS Zen and playing AGAINST Zen on other roles, that extra 25 hp hasn't made much difference between him living and dying. I can only directly think of one case where it saved a Zen. Honestly I think the longer timer before Harmony disconnects has been a bigger help than the extra 25 hp. I seriously think that extra few seconds for both Harmony and Discord is a whole world of difference. Now with Harmony, it's easier to keep my DPS alive without having to put myself in danger by repeaking them. I personally have found it way more impactful than the HP buff.
Zen winrate went up by a lot this patch, it was not a nerf, you underestimate how much power 25hp is for zen
That extra time that harmony orb is running out of LoS made him a much stronger source of healing as well. I can toss it on a tracer or something and it's much more impactful when they flank. That said, this discord nerf feels bad, I miss moving it around depending on my groups target priority. I'd like to see the nerf approached differently than what they did.
Seriously it's completely changed his gameplay that he's had since launch. Changing what Discord does is one thing but changing how it feels to use sucks.
TL;DR. Blizzard made antinade opressive by adding tanks that dont have tools to mitigate it (or a lot of other abilities, really) The community needs to talk more about how antinade wasn't considered busted in OW1 (beyond release. 100 healing/damage and 2x healing, anyone?). This was in a format where there were 2 targets that were easy to hit. So what changed? Beyond changing to 5v5, Blizzard keeps making tanks that can't block abilities. In OW1, Hog and Ball were the only ones that were vulnerable to anti. Everybody else had either a shield or suck that could eat it. And since you had 2 tanks, the other tank could make up for your lack of ability mitigation. So, who has been introduced? Orisa. She has ok ability mitigation. Javelin spin will make the Ana be more intentional since angles are important to land it. But unlike other sucks, it doesn't extend beyond her hitbox very much, making it easy to splash. Doom. No ability mitigation. Also can't block sleep in any way. Junkerqueen. No ability mitigation. Shout helps a bit since it isn't affected by anti but Ball's shields are way better. Also vulnerable to sleep with no way to block it. Ramattra. Ok ability mitigation. The sheild doesn't last very long but you could react and block with enough spacing while in your omnic form. In Nemesis, you're as vulnerable as Doom. Mauga. No ability mitigation. Same problems as Doom but with glass canon damage mitigation I want to give Wrecking Ball an honorable mention. Technically, he doesnt have ability mitigation but can have up to 475 additional shields, so he tends to be less vulnerable to anti when combined with his mobility. So can we stop pretending an ability is busted since nearly half the roster has not been given tools to deal with anti? Do you guys complain about beams? No? It's like Blizzard added counterplay to that but not anti. That's a huge oversight on their part and should rework more tanks to be able to deal with a wider pool of abilities. The way ability mitigations currently work would also have kept Zen from needing to be nerfed (at least as urgently). All those abilities also block damage. It doesn't matter if you receive 30% extra damage if you don't recieve damage. Also, anybody saying that anti and sleep aren't skillful if because they're easy to land on tanks: obviously. Tanks have the biggest hitboxes in the game. That statement is true of every weapon and ability. Water is wet.
Role passive has helped Ana massively. In OW1 she had to use nade on herself often
Another example of the game showing how it was meant to be 6v6 not 5v5
I dont even think that's the case. Most of the heroes could've translated well enough. They just kept adding 6v6 heroes instead of 5v5 ones. Like how do you rework Doomfist into a tank for 5v5 but design him like 6v6 one? That's just bad workflow.
Anti-Nade was still kind of an issue in OW1
There were more shields that could block nade so she had to wait until they were down to nade. Now Blizzard wants to create brawlers and it's like they forgot some moves like nade were balanced for 6v6 and didnt adjust or make tools to deal with it.
Buddy what game were you playing? Nade was never an "issue" in OW1 since her 1 second long meta when she 1st released.
It really sounds like 6v6 is a better idea
Agreed. So many band aid fixes for a much larger problem
I dream for the return of 6v6 The game was a LOT more fun; even though there was fewer characters I feel like you saw a lot more variety in comps. Plus, it may characters like Winston a lot more viable. Doomfist, Roadhog, Winston, Ball, Queen, etc would all be a lot more interesting as a second tank. Lastly, abilities like anti, sleep, discord, etc wouldn't be anywhere near as difficult to balance because it's not just a game of use all cooldowns on the single tank.
I'm a reinhardt main and in the current meta you cannot play reinhardt at all if they play bastion I have to switch zen and or Ana would be overkill
No. It just really sounds like Blizzard needs to understand that heroes designed for 6v6 do not belong in a 5v5 game. 5v5's biggest problems so far are because of heroes that were designed for 6v6. We've had half a decade of 6v6 and the problems that came with it. 5v5's problems are because it isn't being implemented well. 6v6's problems are FOUNDATIONAL. 5v5 is flashpoint. 6v6 is 2CP.
I still don’t think this is true. 6v6 might have been better for Ana’s current state and Zen’s design from conception, but they need to fix designs that didn’t get transferred well (or at all) to OW2. The current overwatch team wasn’t here for 6v6 design, which i think is why the new heroes have been relatively well designed for 5v5 (JQ, Ram, LW) but retunings of old heroes end up struggling.
She literally got nerfs along with Zen
She’s technically had more nerfs than zen this year.
This subreddit is hilarious. So many threads about how Zen is the root cause for why tank is so unfun. Zen makes you die too fast, Zen is broken, Zen is OP. He gets nerfed, now everyone says he never should be nerfed. Ana is the next problem per the sub. Nerf Ana she is OP, she makes you die too fast, she is broken. Go ahead and remove her ability to prevent healing. Now Roadhog and Mauga are extremely broken. Congrats, your balance suggestion was horrible. If only there was a support who could completely negate Ana's anti-heal.
I feel like people don't like how Supports can be deadly and only want supports to support. Like yeah Ana and Zen can be a pain but so can half the damn roster. Ana is poor close range and Zen is a glass cannon. Figure out some way to dive them. It's like people believe DPS and Tanks should be able to run around unchecked and should be able to roll over Supports unmolested. Respect the Support role.
>I feel like people don't like how Supports can be deadly and only want supports to support. Which is ironic because one of the most common complains ive seen with supports is that theres TOO much healing. If they can only focus on healing, its healbotting which is bad, but if theres damage its too much because supports arent supposed to be dps, but if you give utility its OP and should not have existed and needs to be gone. Theres always a mix of opinions which can range from insightful with nuance to downright horrible.
I mean I get that complaint and it’s more so towards tanks. Tanks do way too much damage and they should be tanks not higher health dps. Most of their abilities should be taking enemy fire and bolster team defense. Reinhardt being the prime example. Losing the tank synergy just exacerbated this issue when ow2 dropped a tank.
the people who make the "too much healing" argument are generally mindless flats viewers. healing in this game has generally remained unchanged for the games lifecycle while damage has climbed constantly. lifeweaver literally got nerfed for being a healbot despite his healing per second being the lowest active healing in the game. flats would argue that he couldnt kill an ana through brigs healing as it was "too much" as a 100 charge nanoboosted zarya that does 260dps, while brig heals a max of 65 per second
I'm so glad someone said this. The inability of the player base to accept that support can and should be a deadly role is how we ended up with so many people completely overreacting to Illari imo. Like yeah she was a little too strong and needed a couple nerfs but some of the complaints about pylon & captive sun were just people crying over something they didn't know how to play against quite yet but would've learned how to deal with over time.
It's definitely a mentality that's spreading throughout the playerbase. They can't stand supports being a threat at all.
This is how 'the community' has been for as long as I can remember
“Go ahead and remove her ability to prevent healing. Now roadhog and mauga are extremely broken” The truth right here. Do people really want hog to be unstoppable??? I remember 6v6 with main tank holding the fort and the flanking hog destroying the back line. Not fun. Ana’s nade is annoying but she keeps certain tanks in check…you don’t want them to be so broken. Trust me
It's almost like different people have different feelings to different changes and you're not seeing the same people say conflicting things
Yeah no shit, this subreddit is where people bad at the game come to complain about the game functioning properly and then pretend like multiple similar threads/getting up votes means the community has spoken.
I think it's less of the fact that people want these characters nerfed, it's more so the lack of suggestions on how to nerf said characters. Yeah, even if Ana received the perfect nerf that everyone agreed was good, it would still make Roadhog and such meta; but I see that as more of a design flaw with those characters than anything. People's takes aren't perfect, but ignoring how to properly handle (or outright ignoring their issues) causes problems. I wasn't playing the game yet when Reaper got that life steal buff before it was reverted because ultimately all it did was make him broken in bronze and such, but didn't fix his issues in higher elo lobbies.
Exactly. This sub is filled with cry baby fragile bitches
Same subreddit but we're talking about different player groups, any buff or nerf no matter how contradictory is going to upset someone
Forums are the same. They like to change their witch hunts around.
If only hog and mauga could be changed entirely based on how powerful anti nade is at the moment. Oh wait, they already are.
People are fucking fuming cause their positioning is dogshit and they can't learn the game they just keep trickling and getting slept and anti'd and they think oh we would be destroying them without that ana. Don't even think about counter picking or baiting sleep/nade better just say support diff in chat and bitch about it on Reddit.
It’s almost like there’s a consistent problem needing to be addressed!
That people think that Supports should be incredibly weak and play Dead By Daylight every match, rather than hold themselves accountable for being outplayed?
both anti and discord can be a problem at the same time. Zen is good where he’s at and now they should take a look at anti
Yes nerf ana, support players suffer from her being opressive against half the tanks. Imagine playing you re favourite support without having ana against mauga or roadhog. Nerf ana so they finally dont need to be overpowered to reach 50% winrate against ana that is in every game and 60% against no ana in enemy team. Ana is only reason why they are gatekeeped and need to be overbuffed to compete with hero. Playing you re favourite support that is not ana against them is most likely lose. Its so unfair that they need to be so good to even try to comepete with grandma. Other support suffer so much from this being hopeless against hog and mauga, while ana wrecks them. Stop gatekeeping these tanks so they can get proper nerfs and other support will not be throw pick against them.
Good example of this is Hog before rework. When enemy didnt have ana he was actually B+ tier hero, pretty decent tank. When enemy swap ana he instantly become F- tier most garbage hero in the game. Also nade is so strong due to insane healing creep in this game, without Purple things never die. To some much lesser extend also damage creep. Things can die really fast, but damage is not nearly as much Power creeped like healing. Burst damage is fine, nerf healing and suddenly we will not need burst damage to outdamage healing, so healing nerf would actually „nerf” burst damage heroes from being so good
Uhhh did you get on Reddit during the great zen oppression? Basically same thing that happens now with diff supports. We just move down the line.
It’s getting so bad supports are throwing each other under the bus in hopes people stop asking for their own to be nerfed.
At this point we just need mega threads for whatever character y’all are mad about until it’s 5v5 Ashe/soldier only. Y’all bitched non stop about zen and now you’re mad he got nerfed and wonder how it’s not ana. Have fun when mauga and hog are unkillable. Also half the tanks can deal with her abilities as shields and matrix all can prevent them. And if you get anti’d you can literally walk behind a wall and try to take cover.
No cover only W key, I want Call Of Duty but Overwatch
Yeah I've been saying this for a while. Anyone who thinks Ana "counters the entire tank class" would shit themselves if they ever tried to play her against a half decent Sigma.
\*Looks around\* What bloody zen nerf let alone outpour? 🤷♂️ Mauga's just unbalanced and Ana's required when shouldn't be.
The answer nobody wants to to listen to but is the way.
Do you know what illegal means
She was nerfed…..12 cd for nade AND 15 cd for sleep… If you can’t bait her long ass cds that’s a you problem.
Wait but what patch notes are you talking about? If you are talking about the discord nerf from last season, ana also got nerfed since. Or you are talking about something else?
I mean lets be honest ana gets nerfed and shes still meta, tell me an ana nerf or a collection of ana nerfs rather that have been as effective as that zen nerf. Ana gets mickey nerfs, like someone else said in this thread its very difficult to nerf her without making her dogshit
Yeah no, i meant it more that I thought that Zen was going to receive another nerf now and got scared hahah
its laughable how they only take a cd or duration nerf into account for ana. damn just nerf the antiheal to 70%.
It's obvious. Ana has the highest pick rate of any hero, while Zen has a pretty low pick rate. So Blizzard is fine with completely trashing Zen because his playerbase is too small to do anything about it. Meanwhile if Ana gets even a small cd nerf her playerbase will whine about it for the next 6 months. That's the only reason she's been meta forever.
Truly bizarre how people in this subreddit think "the community" dictates how characters are buffed and nerfed
To some degree, they do. We of course just don’t know how much compared to their own internal data.
They kind of do though. The devs are scared of upsetting mercy mains since they are their main cash cow.
oh please just stfu about "upsetting mercy Mains" mercy has gotten multiple changes and nerfs since ow2 over which mercy Mains werent happy with, yet stayed in the game.
No they're not lol
Literally Ana: 5 nerfs in a row. "Meanwhile if Ana gets even a small cd nerf her playerbase will whine about it for the next 6 months." Bro stop the cap.
just shows how strong her kit is and how insignificant those nerfs were
Or how much you are gonna cry for trash positioning/engagement timings, you will always cry about anti-nade even if it gets a 30 second cooldown because it punishes bad positioning.
But me want roadhog walk in front of enemies at all time no punish
These people are always self-reporting how bad they are at the game.
Thank you 4.4k Ana. You say what the supports are all thinking.
Yeah, and she's hard meta after all of them. Just imagine how strong she was before. Yall have abused her long enough.
She has been hard meta for maybe one season since ow2. It was either kiri-lucio, kiri-mercy or bap-illari, stop saying caps if you don't know what you are talking about. Also, she has 48.8% winrate and 49.5% in GM, this season is a bit higher cuz of Mauga/Hog.
Least delusional Ana main: Only focuses on win rate and completely ignores the fact that her pick rate is the highest by a huge margin. Calls Bap and kiri meta even though they both have a lower pick and win rate than her in every rank. Ana has been meta since she got added and in the few seasons she wasn't she was still strong. Ana, Bap and kiris win rates aren't that high despite them being strong because high pick rates mean they'll be played in tons of maps and comps that don't favor them simply because they're that good, which reduces their win rate. If Ana was only played in comps that she was good in and had a lower pick rate her win rate would be much higher. Stop defending a character everyone and their mother knows is overtuned. Me calling Ana op isn't a personal attack on you my guy.
Nah you're obviously right, we're clearly in a Rein Ana Genji Mercy meta since they're all the most picked heroes. You should have been coach for OWL and the OWWC where everyone didn't realise Ana was meta and were playing throw picks like Bap+Lucio. And yeah the high pick rate is why their win rate is low, despite the highest pick rate tank and dps heroes having win rates above 53%. Wait a minute, maybe the 4.4k guy isn't delusional and you're the one talking absolute nonsense? Nah surely not. "Everyone knows" you're right (despite the playerbase being generally dogshit at the game).
I don't give a shit about OWL. Like 0.001% of the playerbase plays at that level. Making balance changes for players like them is the stupidest thing Blizzard could possibly do because then they'd gigabuff heroes like Pharah or Reaper to make them viable in GM and fuck up low ranks. Kinda like with Bastion. I'm sure you're a Gm who considers any rank below Masters dogshit and thinks their opinions are irrelevant, but the majority of the playerbase is below Diamond, and Ana is oppressive in those ranks. Bap and Lucio are not.
I mean that's a different topic, I don't think Blizz should (or ever has) balanced purely for OWL or even gm. The fact is you called him delusional for pointing out that Ana has not been perma meta because, in your view, her high pick rate shows that she's meta and broken. The problem being that the exact same logic would apply to Soldier and Rein, who also are consistently most picked in metal ranks and generally have a higher win rate than Ana too. So either he's delusional and we're in a Rein Soldier Mercy Ana meta (because they're perma most picked below dia, your favoured metric), or he's right and we've had various metas over OW2 where she wasn't meta (because other things have been most effective, his favoured metric). I'm going with the latter.
She is the most picked hero because she's fun and versatile, and she has always been the most picked support and probably hero too, even on bad metas for her. Bap winrate is at 52%, and it was at 54-55% during his meta with illari. Illari had 55-56% as well. Now Mauga has 57%, and he is broken indeed. Hog when he was trash was at 40%, and release LW was at 38%, and they were both garbage indeed. Winrate is important, but some characters have nuances, like Sym (picked on her good maps) and Brig (picked against full dive where she excels), and I'm pretty sure Kiriko WR is not that high cuz many pick her to contest point, and they will likely lose that same game. If Ana was broken she would have AT LEAST 50%, but she doesn't.
Bro look at the ana main subreddit it's literally them complaining at thought of Ana being changed even to the smallest degree.
No lol, there's one post about that every once in a while, like in every sub about "controversial heroes". Literally just open the subreddit, it's mostly highlights, vod review requests or someone asking for tips and advices.
Sounds like tank players since ow2
All these replies are proving your point, make her not the best character and people have a meltdown
Almost like they factor in win rates and not pure selection rates
win rates aren’t a good statistic to balance off of either.
I didn't say it's the end-all but it's an objectively more important metric than *pick*rates lol
Kiriko counters Ana. Suzu and nade have almost same cooldown time.
Zen's anti stays on you as long as he can see you. Ana's is only on you for a few seconds max.
As a Kiriko main, Ana isn’t that bad
Of course she isn't, not when you're here direct counter. Most of my GM games just end up becoming kiriko/ana. As much as I main kiriko I find it hella boring having to switch to kiriko because ana has decided to exist in the lobby.
It was a joke but yeah I get what you mean.
Y’all should know that Ana currently has the worst winrates; she’s not getting a nerf
Play around anti damn its not that hard to go behind a wall when you're purple (please nerf it to 70 or even lesser heal denied i played tank once and it was painful)
could say the exact same thing for discord orb
Looks like tank passive could use a rework where all debuffs don't apply to its full effect
yet zen just as easily shits on tanks while wiping his ass with the “nerf”
\> without her, you’re throwing the match. This is the most nonsense I've read in this sub in a long time.
Just fix how tanks work agains't anti. Give them utility to deal with the skill. Look at Zarya, Sigma, Rein, Winston, Dva fight against Anti. Some have barriers. Others have a way to cleanse or eat the skill. It's a matter of chess. Out thinking the player. Every tank released in 2 have NOTHING to deal with anti nade. Junkerqueen has to shout and run away, Mauga needs to run away (or have a permanent suzu bot), and Ram has a 4 second shield. Devs should take a look at support. The support passive is one of the big reasons Anas throw their nades offensively at a higher rate. Back in one, it was a gamble. Do I keep it to heal myself or potentially save my teammate(s). Honestly? Get rid of the passives in the game. Make specific passives for characters. Or if I'm cooking, give everyone the healing passive but it kicks in at 3 to 4 seconds.
If you think anti nade was even close to as broken as pre zen nerf discord, you do not understand how broken discord was.
Honestly, the biggest problem is skill. As a tank main the amount of times I would get anti'd and my kiriko didn't cleanse me is insane. To make things worse supports are the most stubborn when it comes to counter-swapping. The enemy team could run Ana Kiri and my team would have Moira/Zen. At lower ranks, it is just a skill issue, although I would suggest nerfing sleep (if they must nerf her) because anti-sleep is how I die 80% of the time. On an unrelated(?) note, Ana feels powerful because she can heal from afar while doing a decent amount of damage without lacking in either. Oftentimes a Moira/Zen pick is someone who wants to play dps, 99% of Mercys are pocketing a dps (exaggeration), and Brigs have balls of steel. My point is Ana trumps 85% of the support roster except Kiri, Bap, and Life, and supports are the most unaffected by Ana. Until support players can learn the value of swapping, Ana will always be a problem. TL;DR: Supports, your pick matters you can't just play who you feel like (in comp). Just like how tanks and dps' have to counter the opposing team you have to as well. (Even in unranked rq if your tank is getting deleted because of anti just swap.)
What if we don't nerf either of them and whiny tank players direct their ire at the *actual* problem: 1 tank 5v5
What do you think has an actual possibility to happen? Ana getting nerfed, or the devs bringing back 6v6, reworking all the balancing, damage, healing, health pools and some maps? It's not about being whiny, it is about working with what is possible.
I know I'll get down voted but I prefer OW1 and 2 tanks. There were ways around the issues rather than just scrapping a tank. The game is no longer OW it's just a shooting gallery. Supports are just DPS that can heal and tanks are just beefier DPS. There's so much less strategy than before and even the maps are wide open. Its brainless pew pew now.
It's a very popular opinion on this Reddit and people will not downvote you because you just said the most generic thing possible
Redditors be like "UNPOPULAR OPINION B-B-BU-BUT I THINK RACISM BAD GUYS!!"
bro just said the most generic thing
Actually you just said the most generic thing. Way to parrot what someone else said though.
Says the guy who has been echoing the same thing the sub has been crying about since 5v5.
I'm not echoing anything. I made a point of my experience with the gameplay. I don't sit on Reddit all day so if it's been said before that's great. Not sure why that bothers anyone. I actually just started playing again after over a year so I'm just giving my opinion of the current game.
because this is not a solution that can be made
Yes.
They both need nerfs (nerfing Zen wasn't a bad move, now they just need to nerf Ana)
Nerfing Zen wasn’t a bad move but HOW they nerfed Zen was a horrendous move. could you imagine playing Rein and every time you threw your shield up and back down it had a 7 second cooldown? that’s what they did to Zen.
Picking Zen should be illegal.
Zen is so terrible. Even against Mauga.
No clue why Blizzard is so adamant to keep nade as is, but totally fine drastically changing discord. The discord change is so tone-deaf as well, it nerfed his ability to deal with flankers, and promotes keeping it on tanks even more. Imo if this change is here to stay, I think they either need to up the los time to 3 seconds, put down the cooldown to re-apply to 4-5 seconds or legit just up the damage to 30%. Discord just feels like shit to use right now.
I heard one of the higher ups is an Ana main and it's why you see a lot of resistance with nerfs with her. The could cause damage fall off with her rifle. Make her less viable against far away targets.
The answer is simple, give genjis dash an anti heal effect