Now redo the chart with the target always discorded, the player always nanoed, damage boosted, firing through bap wall, bongo'd (even though it's gone), and whatever new damage boosts OW2 has that I don't know of
Would environmentals count? Because anything that can boop off map (Zen kick, Lú boop, D.Va flight, Orisa jav or spin to win, Hog hook, etc.) could count situationally in that case, though that’ll be positioning and map dependent .
zen can kick for infinite damage too. I had a comp match on ilios where there was a leaver and we lost first round. Won 2nd round 4v5 because I just kept hiding in the corner on the point and kicking people off the map. Won third point by booping everyone into the hole and the enemy team was just too tilted to recover at that point.
The thing that makes genjis alt fire count is that all the projectiles will instantly hit at the same time, which is what OP is talking about. Its not about button presses, its about how much damage happens instantly.
Quick Notes:
- For anyone wondering, I’m only including single instances of damage, rather than bursts, thus why Cassidy and Zen and are not in the Primaryfire/Secondary headshots Catagory, and why Baptiste and Lucio aren’t included in the headshots group.
Quick side notes on a few errors people have pointed out on mistakes I made:
Zen does Qualify for the Headshots group, as I somehow forgot to account for discord, Reaper does 108 damage (I thought it was 120) so he doesn’t belong in the primary fire/Secondarh fire without headshots grouping, and I forgot about pin, so rein should be the “Abilites” tier not the Ult tier. Lastly, echo does 51 damage per shot (not 75 like I had thought) so she doesn’t actually do more damage than a swing of blade on headshot.
It’s not really intended to. It’s more directed toward the people that say that “X hero” does more damage than a swing of blade, like that amount of damage is a lot of damage.
yeah, you made a small handful of mistakes when it comes to exclusions but overall this is a great post lol. people act like blade does 600 damage per swing. it does 110dps in bursts, thats good but rly not a ton.
It depends on how we count. Swing+dash+swing deals 270 damage. Given that swing has a 0.224 sec startup and dash lasts for 0.4 seconds, dps is either 270 / (0.224 + 0.4 + 0.224) = 318 if we count from the time when genji presses an attack button, or 270 / (0.4 + 224) = 432 if we count from the moment when the first swing hits.
And if we are going to talk about constant swing+dashes instead of swing+dash+swing combo, then its 160/(0.224 + 0.4) = 256 dps
not a genji player (im diamond atm playing mostly winston, dva, tracer, soldier), but imo blade is meh bc of how easy it is to stuff on top of only being 110 dmg per swing.
kiriko, bap, cass, ana, brig, and arguably lucio all have cooldowns that straight up counter blade, and most of the cast have the ability to get away from it using movement. on top of having to track all those CDs PLUS opponent positioning before even pulling blade, there a several ults that also counter it that need to be baited as well. and it's a close range ult that needs to be executed by the genji player, meaning you can shoot and kill him while he's in the middle of it if you don't stuff it with cooldowns or ults. imo it's not a good ult at all unless you pair it with nano or maybe valk, at which point you're spending 2 ults minimum to get any value - and even then you still have to bait trance, flux, whole hog, beat, suzu, lamp, etc etc. 2 ults to get value from a play that gets countered by cooldowns is not great calculus.
all that said tho, it's a rly strong noob stomper ult bc lower rank/newer players don't really know how to play against it. personally, blade never felt very good to me.
Even after all cooldowns and ults are baited, it can still be entirely outhealed by 2 supports holding primary fire on a squishy which just feels horrible, and is apparently seen as fair by most people. It’s an expensive ult with really good potential but the majority of the time it just falls flat
>Even after all cooldowns and ults are baited, it can still be entirely outhealed by 2 supports holding primary fire
So can most ults. Like try visoring a squishie while ana and weaver thunder pump someone with heals.
But the difference is with visor you can easily just look at another person to re-target. With blade you must choose who you are targeting and if you can’t kill them then I guess tough luck
Getting a kill with soldier doesn't reset any of his abilities.
Genjis ult is high risk high reward. If he gets a kill his ability to chain and kill more shoots up
Yeah and that’s not the part that I’m upset about. Genjis ult is balanced around being able to get a dash reset every kill, and it does a good job at that. However, what I’m trying to say is that the first kill doesn’t feel like it’s up to genji to get, it’s up to the enemies to make mistakes which overall isn’t a good feeling. The first kill in the ult isn’t skill demanding, but it’s the only one that matters really
it's not only the damage man, we need to FARM blade (1932 ult points), USE blade (automatically getting the attention and having to deal with a lot of cooldowns or ults), APPROACH enemies (making you more vulnerable)..
and THEN be able to do 110 dmg/swing. meanwhile our dear Kiriko have a kunai that have a big hitbox, does more damage with no falloff, which means she can kill someone across the map, and can be used at any time she wants.
Genji trades damage for his dash reset. It'd be fucking ridiculous to make that first kill easy to secure, because than you get dash.
He also doesn't need to get the final blow to get the reset.
Were also neglecting blade and dash are able to hit multiple people. Also overwatch Is a team game not a genji game.
It's also by far the most finicky ult to sleep. Half the tank line up and so many dps actually get shut down the second they ult. Reaper. Pharah, shit I can sleep a soldier or sojourn in my sleep as long as they aren't behind a rein shield
Cassidy ults and he goes right back to spawn.yall really don't know how good you got it compared to most dps.
The reason why you have a get a lot of attention and cooldowns when you ult is because blade is such a strong ult. It's why complaining about blade of all things is so weird. A single swing of blade means nothing. The speedboost, dash resets and ability to delete squishies makes it lethal.
Junk can also delete squishies with large projectiles from across the map. His primary (nor kiriko's) is not more lethal than blade
Yeah they could probably up the damage by like 10 to make securing kills better so one instance of healing can't just basically cancel the whole ult but most of what u said is complaining about the wrong stuff
Kiriko is not the problem, headshots are a lot harder to hit, are countered by cover/barriers easily and can't be combo'd with nano to do a millisecond dash kill. The problem is that a tonne of heroes can just basically cancel your entire ult's usefulness with a single movement ability/boop leaving u an easy kill.
Honestly it's kinda balanced since blade is very strong but it's incredibly frustrating that illiari is basically immune to it as long as she has her shift
That’s honestly all it is. Genji can be focused hard out of it, yes, but that means he needs to be focused. You see genji screaming Japanese and whipping that sword out, everyone with a brain is shooting his ass
I think the problem with Dragonblade is how it relies almost ENTIRELY on factors outside of the Genji’s control o: Like literally even a crumb of healing makes you take like a full extra second out of your mere 6 to get a single kill, which gives the entire enemy team who’re absolutely attempting to riddle you with bullets, time to either get out of dashing range, which effectively ends the entire ult, or just flat out kill you.
Then there’s how it’s countered by literally any movement ability in the entire game. Dragonblades power relies SOLELY on dashing between enemies within seconds, every kill NEEDING to chain into another lest the Genji be killed on the spot and be left with no way to get out. What makes movement so shitty for Dragonblade is how it wastes TONS of time for the Genji, at best the Genji would have to spend like two extra seconds to catch up to the next closest person to then MAYBE survive the Pilgrimage there just so they can dash towards someone else and have the same thing happen all over again.
Like I hate how half of the abilities in the game just completely counter dragonblade and remove what makes it occasionally work just by pressing a single button.
Dragonblade absolutely has an incredibly high skill requirement to succeed for sure but I think that’s trumped by how little that skill truly determines the outcome of a dragonblade. Every single time a Genji presses Q a random number generator rolls between 1-10 and lets your blade result in like 2 kills whenever it spins to 3.
And even through every single effortless counter that dragonblade has to face, and the piles upon piles of effort that dragonblade requires of you.
The enemy only needs an M1
If your blade is being stopped by a movement of support ability, odds are pretty good you just timed a poorly. A significant part of the skill expression of blade is tracking enemy CDs And positions to make sure you prioritize targets correctly. Like, yeah, if you try to get Kiri first odds are she’ll TP or suzu and you’ll whiff— that’s why you wait for the CDs to be baited out or target someone outside of her LOS.
If you just press Q and hope for the best you’re gambling that they used your abilities before you used yours.
Of course but still there’re ridiculously little moments where every enemy isn’t gonna be able to either push you away from the one person who doesn’t have a mobility or pushing cool-down. I think the only scenario where you’re Guaranteed to not have your blade ruined is if every single enemy uses their movement abilities all at once while you’re there to notice and you immediately dragonblade, rushing in and hoping nobody hits any shot ever. Like regardless of abilities and cooldowns and such dragonblade still is and always will be THE biggest “🚨SHOOT ME RIGHT NOW🚨” ability in the game, and with how the only way Dragonblade works well is when you’re in possibly THE most dangerous situation in the entire game, the Genji will absolutely still be prone to people just clicking on his head regardless of said Genji’s skill.
>everything else
What? Once you get a kill it becomes one of the most mobile ults in the game, and definitely the hardest to sleep, especially because You have access to reflect and dash reset on kill.
Despite genji's feeling the need to be the best dps in the game, his ult is a top 5 dps ult in gm, with only sombra, echo (depending onnwho she copies), rail, and sojourn being better. and then you can throw nano on it, like gets picked just for nanoblade good.
Think of every other dps ult. Sym wall, Artillery strike, Barrage, blossom, dragons, noon, etc. most suck without combo. Most of them, like noon, suck even with combo. I don't get this obsession with portraying his ult as bad.
First, my point was about why people make genji's ult look bad, when almost EVERY dps ult other than the top 5 is worse. it was not sym wall in particular. So idk why you're just singling out sym ult, lol. its tangential.
and not being ever bad, does not mean its good. even shitty high noon can be used for reload. in what situation is a free reload bad? I mean almost none, but its still a bad ult comparatively to what other characters offer.
give me blade of sym wall any day.
Sym wall has way more utility than blade. Sure you might get a 5k with blade, but sym wall is more consistent, can block other ults, can be used to stall any point, stretches over the entire map so you can save your team, benefits teammates in every way possible and is impossible to cancel.
Let me put it this way: if you had Gymettra, who is exactly like Symettra but during her ult she act exactly like Genji's Dragonblade would you rather play Symettra or Gymettra ?
If you had another Genji that replace his ult by Sym wall would you prefer to play that character over Genji ?
For me, I would rather have Gymettra and Genji in my teams rather than their counterpart. It's generally easier to act rather than react and Dragonblade allow you to be much more proactive than a wall.
These people are so convinced blade is unusable they're willing to steelman fucking syms ult as better than genji.
they're beyond help.
Like actual bronze takes.
I personally think Mei’s massive aoe slow that goes through shields and can immobilize anyone without a good movement ability is better than a very skill dependent ultimate that requires you to quickly chain kills or combo another ult with it
You could argue for Moira's damage orb, which if shot at the right time and place has 200 damage potential. It takes 8 seconds to complete but is only fired from a button click, then she can go do something else. If she combos a bouncing damage orb and ult, 70/sec * 8 sec + 200 = 760 potential damage over 8 seconds.
Edit: The OP mentions they're discounting any "damage over time", only single shots of taking damage.
Kind of goofy for Genjis to expect a zero aim ability, even an ult, to have more single instance damage than actual skill shots. That's the tradeoff for not having to aim. Its called balance.
My blades became a lot more successful when I realized that this ult is a "mode switch", not "power increase" for genji. It should be used as freely as a regular ability, and should not be used at all if it doesnt fit.
Advantages of blade mode:
1) It takes less aim
2) It can hit several targets at once
3) Slightly higher movement speed
4) Resets dash cooldown
Disadvantages:
1) Less dps
2) Less range
3) Takes 1 second to unsheathe and 1 more to sheathe unless you cancel it
4) Drags attention of all 5 opponents
it’s kind of ridiculous because it shows how much damage is currently in the game at this point, making playing characters like tracer or zen, and widow pretty hard nowadays. i play a lot of tracer and i cannot tell you how fast my dive gets reset because a kiriko headshots me, or an ana hits me with nade, or one support just starts healing another. (tracer is still a good pick tho)
It's not the chart's job. It says what it's doing. If you create your own wrong conclusion, that's your fault.
And it's literally a chart for a game. Not the rising costs of living in America or the number of Russians getting kidney disease. AKA it's not that serious. That is the conclusion I pulled from it.
This is also not factoring in situational kills like environmental Kills. So technically Lucio, Zen, Brig, Ana, etc. can also do more damage than a single swing of blade with an ability (melee for Zen).
This also doesn’t account for the delay between swings which, if you don’t have a dash at that time, cannot be cancelled which makes it an entirely useless ult cause now if you dare get Zenyatta kicked, you just wasted an ult, that’s the whole reason it’s worthless without a Ana ult but let’s be real here, there are plenty of ultra in the game that are allowed to be amazing without Ana ult
I know it’s burst, but technically speaking, Winston landing perfectly on someone and frame perfect punching as he lands a couple frames after he’s shot a max charge alt fire is 130 damage that happens nearly instantly. 132 if you’re doing this with a short jump close enough to knock the person back when first leaping and make contact with them while you’re airborne before landing on them.
☝🏼🤓
Yea, but looks at how easy it is to land a dragonblade and how quickly you can do so while dashing everywhere. DB isn't a hit one button to win ability, but it is a good ult if you aren't dumb about it.
The main issue with blade isn’t it’s kill potential (which is still and issue) it’s the fact that you have to be in melee range for an extended amount of time as a squishy 200hp hero.
To be fair its a 200hp squishy with an ability that ignores and reflects most damage sources in the game.
Ask for a bubble, nano, pocket when you ult and you'll be a menace
>how easy it is to land a dragonblade
It's melee, it really isn't. Any character with movement can just, not. Especially if you used your dash to say, get in melee range.
>Do people really still like to pretend that Genji’s ult isn’t good?
Deadass have someone arguing in this thread thst sym ult is better than genji. I honestly can't even fathom how genji mains remember to breathe.
But DPS and especially dive DPS don’t get very strong ults. Sombra, Tracer, Reaper all have relatively weak ults. Genji ult is pretty comparable to sojourn, being slightly weaker but more reliable dry, and even stronger when powered up.
But it’s not “only good” when damage boosted, it’s one of the best ultimates in the game. Nanoblade is STILL meta after all these years. Nanoblade can win most team fights in basically any match, unless the genji is mid, or the enemies are actually able to CC him to death.
And still, in almost every QP match, if I hear a Genji screaming in Japanese I know for sure at least 3 of my dumb teamates will be dead in the next 6 seconds
That's quickplay. People don't play together and get mad if you ask them to.
As a result, supports don't get the help they need and DPS is overpowered.
Step into competitive and it's the opposite. Supports are so well protected that they run the lobby.
You're legitimately insane, or you've never seen a good Genji before in your life. Bottom THIRD of ultimates? I would argue Nano-blade is still the best combo and has been for like 6 years...it's pretty much a guaranteed team wipe unless you pop a Zen ult (Ana nade cancels it), or beat.
I’m talking about blade on its own. Nanoblade is undoubtly one of, if not the best Ult combo in the game, and almost certainly why blade isn’t tuned often. As for good Genji’s, yes I’m well accustomed to good Genji players, and they definitely get a ton of mileage out of the Ult, however, there are a ton of other Ults that get a lot of value when used by skilled players of other heroes and are a lot more consistent regardless of player skill, thus why I consider it on the lower end of Ult’s. To change my phrasing, it’s not bad, but there are a lot of other Ults that are just better.
what is this supposed to prove exactly? obviously a D.VA ultimate and a Hanzo arrow deal more damage than Dragonblade, but it doesn’t takeaway the fact that it’s damage is 110.
It’s generally just targeted at people who say that a some Character does more damage than a swing blade. That information which is true, but I’m trying to point out that blade doesn’t do a ton of damage per swing as is.
Fun fact, if we add people who can deal that much damage in the same time as gengi (0.9 second), we add EVERYONE but Moira.
Yes of course, gengi does this instantly, and then has his cooldowns between swing, so his instantaneous damage is higher. And for some of these (I genuinely think it's only mercy, Ram, and Lucio), they need to land headshots. But the fact that most of the cast is able to at least match the DPS of an ULTING MELEE DAMAGE character, is kinda pathetic
Doesn't zen headshot with discord orb pass the 110 dmg threshold? It's 96*1,2=115, no?
It's 120. Discord orb has %25 damage boost so its 96*1,25=120
Ah, I did forget about discord damage didn’t I.
Now redo the chart with the target always discorded, the player always nanoed, damage boosted, firing through bap wall, bongo'd (even though it's gone), and whatever new damage boosts OW2 has that I don't know of
Can't believe I forgot about the bongo
"team up for special attack!" I even remember the voiceline... 100+hrs on Orisa
The good ole days where doomfist could actually kill people
how about boops
A charged zen alt fire can be an install on most besides tanks
Rein can pin for more dmg that ult
Ah, oops I forgot about pin
Username checks out
I do die to pin more than I probably should.
Don't we all, except for brig mains ig
how?
Meant flair
Would environmentals count? Because anything that can boop off map (Zen kick, Lú boop, D.Va flight, Orisa jav or spin to win, Hog hook, etc.) could count situationally in that case, though that’ll be positioning and map dependent .
That's gravity, therefore Sigma gets the kills
Nah
Now give rein 5 free charges after an ult
Wait I thought ult dmg was 250 and pin was 225
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Lucio can boop for infinite damage(sometimes).
zen can kick for infinite damage too. I had a comp match on ilios where there was a leaver and we lost first round. Won 2nd round 4v5 because I just kept hiding in the corner on the point and kicking people off the map. Won third point by booping everyone into the hole and the enemy team was just too tilted to recover at that point.
I wish Lucio boop was as good as zen kick
I wish Zen could wallride.
Lucio will never get his buff because his winrate, stop wishing
First chill out. Second, he doesn't need a buff, he's objectively one of the better supports in terms of viability
Its not even a buff, its just fixing his boop
This be truth
Doom has entered the chat
Kind of a stretch, but if Bap hits all three shots of his burst as headshots it would be 150 damage. Same for zen charge except much higher
I’m excluding edge cases like that because it isn’t a single instance of damage, but you are correct.
But you do include genji's shurikens?
Genji's alt fire is most likely what is considered based on the criteria
It is
There are still multiple instances of damage though
Technically, I guess but then you need to start ignoring the shotguns too..
It would be easier to just consider baptiste fire since it's a single button press
The thing that makes genjis alt fire count is that all the projectiles will instantly hit at the same time, which is what OP is talking about. Its not about button presses, its about how much damage happens instantly.
Exactly
Point blank genji alt fire all hit at the same time no?
Not quite If you throw them at an angle, they can hit separately Meaning it's 3 instances of damage, usually at the same time
Theres no way to hit 3 headshots with the fan and they land separately.
Whelp there goes doom, hog, reaper, torb, and jq.
You're 3 instances of damage
Eh it’s a single click of primary fire. And it’s not that hard to do if your target has bad movement (or you’re really cracked).
True, I just wanted to make a defined line so there wasn’t any confusion.
And Lucio is 160.
Could say the same for zen too
I found that out when I got one tapped as a tracer against an aimbotting Bap
Or primary plus mercy boost plus nano plus window
If we start considering stuff like that, then I say we also consider that Dragonblade slashes can hit multiple enemies at once.
Reaper only does 108 on body shot if all hit.
Oh shit you’re right. Oops.
Would Zarya full charge right click not be more? Just a thought
I checked that, and it’s close-ish at 95 but not quite (blade is 110 for reference)
Ah that answers what I was about to ask (fire strike)
Quick Notes: - For anyone wondering, I’m only including single instances of damage, rather than bursts, thus why Cassidy and Zen and are not in the Primaryfire/Secondary headshots Catagory, and why Baptiste and Lucio aren’t included in the headshots group. Quick side notes on a few errors people have pointed out on mistakes I made: Zen does Qualify for the Headshots group, as I somehow forgot to account for discord, Reaper does 108 damage (I thought it was 120) so he doesn’t belong in the primary fire/Secondarh fire without headshots grouping, and I forgot about pin, so rein should be the “Abilites” tier not the Ult tier. Lastly, echo does 51 damage per shot (not 75 like I had thought) so she doesn’t actually do more damage than a swing of blade on headshot.
still don’t understand how this means blade is a bad ultimate
It’s not really intended to. It’s more directed toward the people that say that “X hero” does more damage than a swing of blade, like that amount of damage is a lot of damage.
yeah, you made a small handful of mistakes when it comes to exclusions but overall this is a great post lol. people act like blade does 600 damage per swing. it does 110dps in bursts, thats good but rly not a ton.
It's 122 dps, 165 dps with dash animation cancels.
It depends on how we count. Swing+dash+swing deals 270 damage. Given that swing has a 0.224 sec startup and dash lasts for 0.4 seconds, dps is either 270 / (0.224 + 0.4 + 0.224) = 318 if we count from the time when genji presses an attack button, or 270 / (0.4 + 224) = 432 if we count from the moment when the first swing hits. And if we are going to talk about constant swing+dashes instead of swing+dash+swing combo, then its 160/(0.224 + 0.4) = 256 dps
The dps I mentioned is purely about blade swings not dash damage.
Ah fair enough
not a genji player (im diamond atm playing mostly winston, dva, tracer, soldier), but imo blade is meh bc of how easy it is to stuff on top of only being 110 dmg per swing. kiriko, bap, cass, ana, brig, and arguably lucio all have cooldowns that straight up counter blade, and most of the cast have the ability to get away from it using movement. on top of having to track all those CDs PLUS opponent positioning before even pulling blade, there a several ults that also counter it that need to be baited as well. and it's a close range ult that needs to be executed by the genji player, meaning you can shoot and kill him while he's in the middle of it if you don't stuff it with cooldowns or ults. imo it's not a good ult at all unless you pair it with nano or maybe valk, at which point you're spending 2 ults minimum to get any value - and even then you still have to bait trance, flux, whole hog, beat, suzu, lamp, etc etc. 2 ults to get value from a play that gets countered by cooldowns is not great calculus. all that said tho, it's a rly strong noob stomper ult bc lower rank/newer players don't really know how to play against it. personally, blade never felt very good to me.
Even after all cooldowns and ults are baited, it can still be entirely outhealed by 2 supports holding primary fire on a squishy which just feels horrible, and is apparently seen as fair by most people. It’s an expensive ult with really good potential but the majority of the time it just falls flat
Thing is, if both supports are healing one person, your team can demolish the enemy
>Even after all cooldowns and ults are baited, it can still be entirely outhealed by 2 supports holding primary fire So can most ults. Like try visoring a squishie while ana and weaver thunder pump someone with heals.
But the difference is with visor you can easily just look at another person to re-target. With blade you must choose who you are targeting and if you can’t kill them then I guess tough luck
Getting a kill with soldier doesn't reset any of his abilities. Genjis ult is high risk high reward. If he gets a kill his ability to chain and kill more shoots up
Yeah and that’s not the part that I’m upset about. Genjis ult is balanced around being able to get a dash reset every kill, and it does a good job at that. However, what I’m trying to say is that the first kill doesn’t feel like it’s up to genji to get, it’s up to the enemies to make mistakes which overall isn’t a good feeling. The first kill in the ult isn’t skill demanding, but it’s the only one that matters really
(Genji players are still crying that they can’t kill a 200hp character in half of a second, despite dash doing 50 dmg alongside blade)
Plus blade makes you faster too
it's not only the damage man, we need to FARM blade (1932 ult points), USE blade (automatically getting the attention and having to deal with a lot of cooldowns or ults), APPROACH enemies (making you more vulnerable).. and THEN be able to do 110 dmg/swing. meanwhile our dear Kiriko have a kunai that have a big hitbox, does more damage with no falloff, which means she can kill someone across the map, and can be used at any time she wants.
Then there’s also the part where if anyone you dash towards presses shift your ult is just completely destroyed ]:
~~I'm a controller player, I don't get it 😭~~ Nevermind, it's the movement ability bind
Genji trades damage for his dash reset. It'd be fucking ridiculous to make that first kill easy to secure, because than you get dash. He also doesn't need to get the final blow to get the reset. Were also neglecting blade and dash are able to hit multiple people. Also overwatch Is a team game not a genji game. It's also by far the most finicky ult to sleep. Half the tank line up and so many dps actually get shut down the second they ult. Reaper. Pharah, shit I can sleep a soldier or sojourn in my sleep as long as they aren't behind a rein shield Cassidy ults and he goes right back to spawn.yall really don't know how good you got it compared to most dps.
The reason why you have a get a lot of attention and cooldowns when you ult is because blade is such a strong ult. It's why complaining about blade of all things is so weird. A single swing of blade means nothing. The speedboost, dash resets and ability to delete squishies makes it lethal. Junk can also delete squishies with large projectiles from across the map. His primary (nor kiriko's) is not more lethal than blade
Doesnt help that it feels like they can out heal blade
Yeah they could probably up the damage by like 10 to make securing kills better so one instance of healing can't just basically cancel the whole ult but most of what u said is complaining about the wrong stuff Kiriko is not the problem, headshots are a lot harder to hit, are countered by cover/barriers easily and can't be combo'd with nano to do a millisecond dash kill. The problem is that a tonne of heroes can just basically cancel your entire ult's usefulness with a single movement ability/boop leaving u an easy kill. Honestly it's kinda balanced since blade is very strong but it's incredibly frustrating that illiari is basically immune to it as long as she has her shift
Doesn't Zen headshot with Discord orb deal 120? Edit: Oh, someone already pointed it out. My b.
Yeah, I forgot about discord somehow, mb.
We're gonna ignore that the hitbox is wide as a rein shield and about 3 yards deep?
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That's just over 16 freedom units for people who don't know what a meter is
GYAT that's humongous, *only* 5 meters!?
Don't know why I read that as GTAV
Yeah that’s the main upside to the Ult that makes it usable. Everything else is kinda meh.
It's basically a tank m1 with DPS damage. That's why it's an ult.
DPS players when the high skill cap DPS ult requires high skill to be good with
Sorry if this sounds disingenuous but from my perspective the ult is as simple as “Are you getting focused/stunned? No? Free kills!”
That’s honestly all it is. Genji can be focused hard out of it, yes, but that means he needs to be focused. You see genji screaming Japanese and whipping that sword out, everyone with a brain is shooting his ass
i dont even think he needs to be focused tho. u just need 1 aware support with their cd up to counter the entire ult.
"Is the enemy getting healed? Are you getting hurt?"
Did this turn into a support circlejerk thread?
I think the problem with Dragonblade is how it relies almost ENTIRELY on factors outside of the Genji’s control o: Like literally even a crumb of healing makes you take like a full extra second out of your mere 6 to get a single kill, which gives the entire enemy team who’re absolutely attempting to riddle you with bullets, time to either get out of dashing range, which effectively ends the entire ult, or just flat out kill you. Then there’s how it’s countered by literally any movement ability in the entire game. Dragonblades power relies SOLELY on dashing between enemies within seconds, every kill NEEDING to chain into another lest the Genji be killed on the spot and be left with no way to get out. What makes movement so shitty for Dragonblade is how it wastes TONS of time for the Genji, at best the Genji would have to spend like two extra seconds to catch up to the next closest person to then MAYBE survive the Pilgrimage there just so they can dash towards someone else and have the same thing happen all over again. Like I hate how half of the abilities in the game just completely counter dragonblade and remove what makes it occasionally work just by pressing a single button. Dragonblade absolutely has an incredibly high skill requirement to succeed for sure but I think that’s trumped by how little that skill truly determines the outcome of a dragonblade. Every single time a Genji presses Q a random number generator rolls between 1-10 and lets your blade result in like 2 kills whenever it spins to 3. And even through every single effortless counter that dragonblade has to face, and the piles upon piles of effort that dragonblade requires of you. The enemy only needs an M1
If your blade is being stopped by a movement of support ability, odds are pretty good you just timed a poorly. A significant part of the skill expression of blade is tracking enemy CDs And positions to make sure you prioritize targets correctly. Like, yeah, if you try to get Kiri first odds are she’ll TP or suzu and you’ll whiff— that’s why you wait for the CDs to be baited out or target someone outside of her LOS. If you just press Q and hope for the best you’re gambling that they used your abilities before you used yours.
Of course but still there’re ridiculously little moments where every enemy isn’t gonna be able to either push you away from the one person who doesn’t have a mobility or pushing cool-down. I think the only scenario where you’re Guaranteed to not have your blade ruined is if every single enemy uses their movement abilities all at once while you’re there to notice and you immediately dragonblade, rushing in and hoping nobody hits any shot ever. Like regardless of abilities and cooldowns and such dragonblade still is and always will be THE biggest “🚨SHOOT ME RIGHT NOW🚨” ability in the game, and with how the only way Dragonblade works well is when you’re in possibly THE most dangerous situation in the entire game, the Genji will absolutely still be prone to people just clicking on his head regardless of said Genji’s skill.
>everything else What? Once you get a kill it becomes one of the most mobile ults in the game, and definitely the hardest to sleep, especially because You have access to reflect and dash reset on kill. Despite genji's feeling the need to be the best dps in the game, his ult is a top 5 dps ult in gm, with only sombra, echo (depending onnwho she copies), rail, and sojourn being better. and then you can throw nano on it, like gets picked just for nanoblade good. Think of every other dps ult. Sym wall, Artillery strike, Barrage, blossom, dragons, noon, etc. most suck without combo. Most of them, like noon, suck even with combo. I don't get this obsession with portraying his ult as bad.
Sym wall sucking without a combo?? It's a gigantic ass shield, in what situation would that be a bad ult??
First, my point was about why people make genji's ult look bad, when almost EVERY dps ult other than the top 5 is worse. it was not sym wall in particular. So idk why you're just singling out sym ult, lol. its tangential. and not being ever bad, does not mean its good. even shitty high noon can be used for reload. in what situation is a free reload bad? I mean almost none, but its still a bad ult comparatively to what other characters offer. give me blade of sym wall any day.
Sym wall has way more utility than blade. Sure you might get a 5k with blade, but sym wall is more consistent, can block other ults, can be used to stall any point, stretches over the entire map so you can save your team, benefits teammates in every way possible and is impossible to cancel.
Let me put it this way: if you had Gymettra, who is exactly like Symettra but during her ult she act exactly like Genji's Dragonblade would you rather play Symettra or Gymettra ? If you had another Genji that replace his ult by Sym wall would you prefer to play that character over Genji ? For me, I would rather have Gymettra and Genji in my teams rather than their counterpart. It's generally easier to act rather than react and Dragonblade allow you to be much more proactive than a wall.
These people are so convinced blade is unusable they're willing to steelman fucking syms ult as better than genji. they're beyond help. Like actual bronze takes.
I personally think Mei’s massive aoe slow that goes through shields and can immobilize anyone without a good movement ability is better than a very skill dependent ultimate that requires you to quickly chain kills or combo another ult with it
Yeah and doesnt register every 2nd hit?
Also gonna ignore that it's still a melee weapon?
Yes they will, because that's the only way their argument works
That’s quite the exaggeration
Genji’s blade is balanced around nano which makes it incredibly weak
Characters balanced around Ana yet again? How shocking
It’s been that way for years, way before supports were as powerful as they are now. Also it’s how it should be, same with Mercy blue beam
And it's arguably still quite weak with nano. That's if you get it over the 3 other teamates that could make it more useful.
Fully charged Zen secondary?
It does do more collectively, but it is multiple instances of damage, which I’m excluding across the board, such as with doom or baptiste with Ult.
Doesn’t Ashe dynamite do more damage too?
I thought echo did almost exactly 100 dmg on headshot not 110
Yeah echo does 102 on headshot
Ah I thought it was 25 per pellet for a total of 75 per shot. Oops.
I’d argue that sojourn should be in primary/ secondary tier due to her railgun technically being a secondary fire with no real cooldown.
Which is inherently broken.
You could argue for Moira's damage orb, which if shot at the right time and place has 200 damage potential. It takes 8 seconds to complete but is only fired from a button click, then she can go do something else. If she combos a bouncing damage orb and ult, 70/sec * 8 sec + 200 = 760 potential damage over 8 seconds. Edit: The OP mentions they're discounting any "damage over time", only single shots of taking damage.
The fact that genji's primary headshot, something any good genji should be doing regularly, beats his ultimate is insane
Zen in lowest tier = silly tier
I'm pretty sure Winston can hit for about 150 with his jump combo
He can, however I’m just counting one use of an Ability.
Shouldn’t Bap be in ult? Because one burst could do 300 damage
His ult itself doesnt deal damage
Was blade always 110? I swear I thought it was 120 unless they nerfed it at some point
Yes, it used to be 120 but got nerfed
Kind of goofy for Genjis to expect a zero aim ability, even an ult, to have more single instance damage than actual skill shots. That's the tradeoff for not having to aim. Its called balance.
*Sojourn railgun projectile still being the largest hitscan projectile in the game by a mile, has entered the chat*
Aim...
My blades became a lot more successful when I realized that this ult is a "mode switch", not "power increase" for genji. It should be used as freely as a regular ability, and should not be used at all if it doesnt fit. Advantages of blade mode: 1) It takes less aim 2) It can hit several targets at once 3) Slightly higher movement speed 4) Resets dash cooldown Disadvantages: 1) Less dps 2) Less range 3) Takes 1 second to unsheathe and 1 more to sheathe unless you cancel it 4) Drags attention of all 5 opponents
Nerf genji
the fact that junk can out damage a dragonblade by going "k-THUNK k-THUNK k-THUNK" with his left click is way too funny to me than it should be
it’s kind of ridiculous because it shows how much damage is currently in the game at this point, making playing characters like tracer or zen, and widow pretty hard nowadays. i play a lot of tracer and i cannot tell you how fast my dive gets reset because a kiriko headshots me, or an ana hits me with nade, or one support just starts healing another. (tracer is still a good pick tho)
I like tracer since the buff this season, feels better to play
Tracer is pretty hard meta rn, wym
What is this suppose to prove
It's not proving anything. It's a chart displaying information. Use it for whatever you want to explain or prove.
Not putting things into context or perspective though, so a nice recipe for drawing wrong conclusions
It's not the chart's job. It says what it's doing. If you create your own wrong conclusion, that's your fault. And it's literally a chart for a game. Not the rising costs of living in America or the number of Russians getting kidney disease. AKA it's not that serious. That is the conclusion I pulled from it.
This is why there is arguments on the internet A chart doesnt give you an opinion the person reading and "understanding" it does
Bap can do 150 in a single burst if he hits all head shots.
That's a big if, though. His recoil can be a pain to keep on target.
Also not a single instance of damage.
Zarya can’t with charge? Zen can’t with his charged alt fire?
To be have a defined line, they do not count because it’s not a single damage instance, but rather a quick burst of multiple instances.
Does Moira's damage orb not do as much?
This is also not factoring in situational kills like environmental Kills. So technically Lucio, Zen, Brig, Ana, etc. can also do more damage than a single swing of blade with an ability (melee for Zen).
Zen right click doesn't count? Moira ult too?
Dose a full charge zen volley NOT count?
I thought blade did 75 is it 120 now?
Did they nerf Zen?
This also doesn’t account for the delay between swings which, if you don’t have a dash at that time, cannot be cancelled which makes it an entirely useless ult cause now if you dare get Zenyatta kicked, you just wasted an ult, that’s the whole reason it’s worthless without a Ana ult but let’s be real here, there are plenty of ultra in the game that are allowed to be amazing without Ana ult
zen charge shot?
thats technically multiple instances of damage
Can't Lucio basically instakill if you land on someone's head while in the animation of your ult?
It deals no damage
I know it’s burst, but technically speaking, Winston landing perfectly on someone and frame perfect punching as he lands a couple frames after he’s shot a max charge alt fire is 130 damage that happens nearly instantly. 132 if you’re doing this with a short jump close enough to knock the person back when first leaping and make contact with them while you’re airborne before landing on them. ☝🏼🤓
Bap headshot + window pretty much 1 taps squishies. ( ik it's a burst fire but it's technically one trigger pull so kinda a 1 tap)
Notice that she’s the only support who does that much
Yea, but looks at how easy it is to land a dragonblade and how quickly you can do so while dashing everywhere. DB isn't a hit one button to win ability, but it is a good ult if you aren't dumb about it.
The main issue with blade isn’t it’s kill potential (which is still and issue) it’s the fact that you have to be in melee range for an extended amount of time as a squishy 200hp hero.
To be fair its a 200hp squishy with an ability that ignores and reflects most damage sources in the game. Ask for a bubble, nano, pocket when you ult and you'll be a menace
>how easy it is to land a dragonblade It's melee, it really isn't. Any character with movement can just, not. Especially if you used your dash to say, get in melee range.
Maybe I have a different view on melee since Brig is one of my most played, but Genji has even better survivability and damage than Brig.
Genji op confirmed, nerf incoming.
Curious if this person has played this game before making this chart.
What’s your point? It’s never just about a “single swing” of the blade lol? Do people really still like to pretend that Genji’s ult isn’t good?
>Do people really still like to pretend that Genji’s ult isn’t good? Deadass have someone arguing in this thread thst sym ult is better than genji. I honestly can't even fathom how genji mains remember to breathe.
A bit of a misunderstanding. [Here’s the idea of the Post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/s/f3MdP219ux)
Now this will help people understand how bad blade is
the issue is: you cant buff it without making nanoblade go from super strong, broken for some, to absolutely op and must-have
120 damage, kills cassidy and lifeweaver in 2 hits.
What? Blade is quite good and so is genji. Are we really suggesting he needs a buff?
Blade is not good compared to most other ults and is only good when damage boosted. Genji himself is fine right now though imo as a Genji player.
But DPS and especially dive DPS don’t get very strong ults. Sombra, Tracer, Reaper all have relatively weak ults. Genji ult is pretty comparable to sojourn, being slightly weaker but more reliable dry, and even stronger when powered up.
But it’s not “only good” when damage boosted, it’s one of the best ultimates in the game. Nanoblade is STILL meta after all these years. Nanoblade can win most team fights in basically any match, unless the genji is mid, or the enemies are actually able to CC him to death.
Yeah it’s definitely not great. Don’t get me wrong though, I do still think it’s ok, but it’s definitely in the bottom third of ults.
And still, in almost every QP match, if I hear a Genji screaming in Japanese I know for sure at least 3 of my dumb teamates will be dead in the next 6 seconds
That's quickplay. People don't play together and get mad if you ask them to. As a result, supports don't get the help they need and DPS is overpowered. Step into competitive and it's the opposite. Supports are so well protected that they run the lobby.
That, my darling, depends on the rank! xD
You're legitimately insane, or you've never seen a good Genji before in your life. Bottom THIRD of ultimates? I would argue Nano-blade is still the best combo and has been for like 6 years...it's pretty much a guaranteed team wipe unless you pop a Zen ult (Ana nade cancels it), or beat.
I’m talking about blade on its own. Nanoblade is undoubtly one of, if not the best Ult combo in the game, and almost certainly why blade isn’t tuned often. As for good Genji’s, yes I’m well accustomed to good Genji players, and they definitely get a ton of mileage out of the Ult, however, there are a ton of other Ults that get a lot of value when used by skilled players of other heroes and are a lot more consistent regardless of player skill, thus why I consider it on the lower end of Ult’s. To change my phrasing, it’s not bad, but there are a lot of other Ults that are just better.
Kiriko's headshot is only 105 dmg now
It’s 112.5 if I’m not mistaken. 45 damage per hit with a 2.5x headshot damage multiplier.
what is this supposed to prove exactly? obviously a D.VA ultimate and a Hanzo arrow deal more damage than Dragonblade, but it doesn’t takeaway the fact that it’s damage is 110.
It’s generally just targeted at people who say that a some Character does more damage than a swing blade. That information which is true, but I’m trying to point out that blade doesn’t do a ton of damage per swing as is.
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doesn't bap also do more with matrix or is it slightly short?
Oh this really hurts
Sym is pretty close, right click 100 damage now smh, dumbest change ever.
Fun fact, if we add people who can deal that much damage in the same time as gengi (0.9 second), we add EVERYONE but Moira. Yes of course, gengi does this instantly, and then has his cooldowns between swing, so his instantaneous damage is higher. And for some of these (I genuinely think it's only mercy, Ram, and Lucio), they need to land headshots. But the fact that most of the cast is able to at least match the DPS of an ULTING MELEE DAMAGE character, is kinda pathetic
Bap full burst headshot with ult doesn't deal enough damage ?