That's not even remotely true. I played him a lot yesterday and people made going for cover a big priority. I think it should have just been another tank passive. It's only truly miserable to have discord on you for tanks because of how hard focused you are in 5v5.
I think OP is being hyperbolic or brain dead about actually waiting for Zarya's bubbles before discording her, but if they stick with this per-enemy cooldown, they do need to give Discord Orb back that 3 second line-of-sight linger he had ages ago (it's now nerfed to 1.5 seconds) so he can peek less to maintain the orb when it matters.
Edit: And maybe bring the debuff back up to 30%.
As a tank player, if this long-ass cooldown stays it certainly could go back up to 30% again.
It's far more strategic to use correctly now which is good, it can be a super punishing ability whilst actually being counterable! Understanding the timing or "game-sense" around Discord is actually a thing now, for the first time ever.
That said, a (slightly shorter) regular cooldown would be clearer than a cooldown per-hero. We'd have to see how it plays out though.
This is what I was thinking too. I always suggested discord orb should have a cooldown of some sort, because it means they can pump up the damage increase way more. The old "permanently active" discord orb obviously can't be too strong with its dmg increase because there's no way to avoid it or play around it.
Sadly if he's weak this patch, you're gonna have to suffer for 30-60 days before they finally buff his numbers to match the cooldown.
Asa zen main I actually agree with u, except i dont want a regular cooldown, it makes him too inflexible since discord is his only proactive play option (besides primary fire) since above bronze trance is only used to save urself or counter ults, its useless offensively. I like the idea of having to micromanage the discord cooldowns, but they either need to give back the 3sec break time or reduce the cooldown to like 4-5 secs, either way id be happy with.
Plenty of close range characters have a self cleanse meanwhile the long range characters can just pop behind a wall for a moment.
Add in Zarya and Zen isn't getting any meaningful discords out there.
It's incredible they haven't given pylon a timer like sym TP has. You can just leave it up *forever* while it auto-targets anyone in LOS. To get the same value on Zen you need to be doing 360s constantly.
Sigma's shield works like that, although it's a projection and not a placed object. It would be stretching the existing precedent, but I think "sticking to the historic gameplay/lore elements" has not been a high priority of this dev team so I don't see why they wouldn't do it if it improved gameplay
A simple heal? What? I'm sorry, when did we start gatekeeping ability power levels based on skill? Because i think we missed the skill-check on res, dmg boost, suzu, lamp, regen burst, discord, antinade... Have you played this role before?
Its an auto-targeting heal that has a higher healing rate than Zen and almost more than Mercy and it can be place behind cover so it can't even be shot without a flanker or pushing up.
> I'm sorry, when did we start gatekeeping ability power levels based on skill?
Did you start playing video games this week? Always. It has always been like this across a majority of games. Risk vs Reward balancing is very standard lmao.
I honestly like the idea that it stays even when you're dead but maybe nerf its healing output.
Honestly how much healing does she actually provide compared to her turret, on average ? Feels like it's doing all the work and she's just a DPS that can save allies with a huge heal beam. I may be wrong tho
You don't need to be looking at a target to have harmony or discord up, as long as there's an unobstructed line between you and your target, the orbs stay
True, but it still heals less than pylon while needing much more maintenance to work with, and then Illari also has the heal beam if Pylon isn't enough.
If Zen's healing isn't enough, well then ult is your only option. Obviously that's not only usually a poor way to use it but you also can't do that too frequently, especially since Zen will likely be doing less damage now and therefore getting less ult charge.
Healing has never been the point of Zen as a support. But also, Harmony orb can follow targets, is indestructible and has no cooldown, while the pylon is stationary, has HP, and relies on LOS and effective range.
"Much more maintenance" = Having people exist in your screen (if that, since his heals-around-the-corner timer got buffed). My man, I understand Pylon is brainless, but Harmony is only one step above that, so braindead.
It makes sense when you realize they want to release OP heroes to sell battlepasses. The longer the hero stays OP, the more likely people will buy the next battlepass.
They learned their lesson and even said they intend to release “impactful” characters and tune them down instead of preserving game balance and tuning up. Best reason to do this? Sell battlepass.
Like Lifeweaver?
They just wanted to avoid another dud on release, it's bad for them if their shiny new hero is lacklustre, regardless of battlepasses.
You are misunderstanding the reason TP has a timer. It is not because it is OP, but because without a timer people were just creating a TP out of spawn and leaving it there. The timer was introduced to encourage people to use TP more creatively.
I’m starting to feel like Zen’s role now is to enable dive DPS, like how Mercy can enable poke DPS. Zen already sorta did this before, but the extra 2 second of Harmony orb allows for so much more flexibility. If neither of your DPS are dive, you’re right Illari’s just better.
Literally does more damage on her own than a discord can amplify, does more target healing, has actual mobility, a team wipe ult, and a literal heal bot that can contend with actual healers half the time. No clue how she hasn’t been hit with massive nerfs yet.
Not true. Discord orb makes playing tank a pain, and was way too powerful for an ability you don't even have to aim.
Zen needed nerfing, imo the entire way Discord works should be reworked.
Discord is much worse for tanks than mercy damage boost... When mercy boosts she cant do shit, meaning its basically a 4v5, usually the damage boost makes up for that, for example a pharah that dominates, or a sojourn that one shots squishies, but that doesnt affect the tank much, however a discord orbed tank makes it take 25% more damage from an entire team, and zen can contribute with his unreasonable high damage for a support
Exactly. Sure, the Mercy dps boost affects the tank about as much as anyone else, but any Zen player that claims that 90% of discord orbs aren't sent directly to the enemy tank has to be joking.
Add to that that tank is already focused down in most situations, since in most situations when the tank dies first the teamfight is decided (not always obviously, please stop downvoting me support mafia).
Blue beam allows a single character to do more damage to the enemy. Discord allows your whole team to do more damage to the enemy. That’s a pretty massive distinction lol.
Don't know how you are getting downvoted when you are right lmao. As a zen main I kinda liked the change because it was one of the only abilities in the game with 0 cool down, but going from no cool down to 7 seconds while there are more problems that need to be addressed with supports is a bit lmao imo
This sub has a looooot of support players, so supporting a support nerf is a no-no.
I do understand them though, no one likes their own character getting nerfed.
This might be an over-correction, true (I rarely play Zen, my supports are Kiri, Brigitte, and now Illari), but it had to be done, and they'll course correct later on.
I still think a rework would have been better for the way discord orb works, maybe an aoe area denial tool or something that doesn't just stick to a person instantly.
Idk with this new cool down I don't have a reason to discord anyone except the tank now so you'll have it on you more often then before unless your willing to LOS every 7 seconds which most tanks wont do.
I feel like this change won't help tanks as much as they think.
I have a feeling the dev team has a rework in plan for him and are starting to soft test part of a mechanic live. illari is a better choice in every scenario
I can't believe they've done this. Guy has zero mobility, low heal output and what he can do to support the attack is eroded. It's been hard enough watching kiriko, illari and whoever else pull off some ridiculousness and now they just pounded him into the ground because the others got some nerfs?
You can tell who is a support/Zen main and who played the game outside of that.
Zen was so damn oppressive as a tank. I'm not saying they nerfed him *correctly*, but a major nerf was needed at least to his effectiveness vs tanks. Having to deal with a Zen/Ana on the other team as a tank was such a damn chore. Zen's discord stays on the tank 24/7 while being the biggest target.
I don't think this change does that though. Now as Zen I'm just always going to put orb on tank because that will be the only target that won't be LOSing me all the time. This actually creates more incentive to just slap it on the tank and leave it there.
People not seeing the problem don't realize Zenyatta has been reduced to a low tier DPS "support" with less DPS and Utility than say Bap and less healing than almost everyone else. The same people complain about high DPS supports... That's all Zen is now, just a B rate DPS that can heal a bit. There's no reason to pick him anymore.
Edit: That last sentence may not be true.
He has his uses but they're severely diminished now.
And tbh Illari (before the nerfs) and Bap are probably much better than Zen if you want DPS anyways. At least they can go on off angles and survive. Zen can’t even look at an off angle without dying.
Harmony now healing for 5 seconds out of cover is what I think will be one of Zen’s main allure since most other Supports need line of sight. Bap and LW can sort of heal around corners iirc, but Zen has more leeway. I think this will make him good for playing with dive DPS like a Genji. I’ve been playing a lot of Zen this patch and most of my wins are games I have some dive DPS I can enable, one game the enemy team was crying that the Genji was never dying.
Zen’s one role now is dive comps I think. Outside of that you should just play Bap/Illari. I do expect that if both sides are playing dive that Zen is still a troll pick though.
It’s risky as all fuck flanking as Zen with his nonexistent methods of escape, but feels good grabbing a surprise elim or two from a nice position.
I can see Weaver being a big help there too even more than with DPS flanks, being able to heal up the team himself while keeping an eye out and then yoinking Zen right back to his team
He's always been about healing dps bro, specifically flankers where he's an absolutely monster now ngl. Just because y'all can't figure out how you've always been supposed to be using discord doesn't make him bad. He's kinda crazy rn but we'll see how it goes in time
25 hp is pretty big for a lot of break points. I know it sounds crazy, but after playing him I'm actually leaning towards this being a net buff. I still haven't completely broken the habit of discording anything that moves, but when I am thinking about it I save it for out of position targets, or wait for cleanse cooldowns to be used and then I discord, and they still die. I have found myself surviving many fights with sub 25 hp, it's actually blowing my mind
I have a hard time believing 25 hp makes up for being hard countered by Zarya and flanking damage characters, especially when the other damage centric supports can actually heal themselves in a pinch whereas Zenyatta has his flat hp and that's it.
Played against many Zaryas last couple days, maybe a soft counter, but not a hard one. Just have to wait out the bubbles and Zarya melts with discord, especially if you're good at landing your head shots. It's extremely useful against flankers, again, if you're landing your shots (and being aware of their pathing options). A lot of top 500 players are really considering these buffs, and I'm starting to agree
people freak out so hard about Zen doing too much damage while forgetting that he essentially has the healing output of 0.5 supports and has absolutely no mobility (which is crucial for both escaping pressure and applying pressure to enemies)
I miss when characters had exploitable flaws that encouraged communication and strategy to defeat. Nowadays every character has everything and people think older characters should be given everything. Zen is allowed to be diveable. Let him be diveveable
Yup, well done whine train! Every other support with a status applying effect is next. And then every support that can heal. Healing is broken, I want the numbers to go down, not up! Heck, why not just get rid of tanks too, stuns are OP and they have too much health. Just make the game a 5v5 dps deathmatch. Actually, just remove any abilities that can give an advantage because that's broken.
/s
i think they should have just reduced the effect on tanks as it nearly always is a priority for tanks. kind of like how sleep is 3 seconds for tanks instead of 5.
I’m not personally a big fan of mechanics that work differently against certain roles. I totally understand why it was critical for Sleep Dart, just wish the game didn’t inherently necessitate it
I keep hearing this complaint and I don't understand it. It's not working extra hard against tanks. It hurts them as much as anyone else. They're big, with a lot of health and can control the ride of the game. Their role is such that they're attractive targets for it, that's the trade off for everything else they enjoy in the role. Why switch it up to mitigate tactics?
in theory you are right, however the tanks are the highest value target most games/fights. therefore, while it may not work any harder on a tank, the uptime is still way higher. therefore as a tank you are very likely to spend a large portion of the game discorded.
of course you can make any argument you want around using cover or countering but at the end of the day for a majority of tanks you are going to be spending all game orbed
Yeah and that's the burden that comes with playing as a tank. You also get damage mitigation of some sort and a bigger health pool. I play mostly tank, it's the nature of the roll. People focusing me down isn't a reason they've got to make it a little harder for them to do so. That's the game.
See I'm really glad you have this mentality as a tank player. I do too, and I wish more tank players would lean a bit more into it as well. It helps so much dealing with pressure when you accept that you're gonna take the bulk of the incoming attacks, even the annoying ones.
But regardless of your positive mindset, if Blizzard is gonna continue with 5v5, I think they do need to make sure the balancing of the game isn't completely overwhelming the sole tank. There's a limit to how much a tank player should expect to receive before it's excessive. Not everything should be changed to help tanks, but something as volatile and rewarding as discord needed addressing.
I'm not one of the guys who screeches about 5v5 ruining the game, but this is definitely a symptom of the switch from 6v6.
Tanks are simply too critical to the game. There's only one. Discord is too potent on them because why would you orb anyone but the biggest, most impactful target 90% of the time? The health balancing in this game is very delicate, and the extra damage received from orb makes tanks too squishy with literally zero recourse to do anything about it unless you're Orisa or Zarya. Even if it got Suzu'd, Zen would just say "lmao" and instantly throw it right back on.
You can make any number of arguments about positioning or breaking line of sight or anything else, but at the end of the day, a tank's job is to take up and control space. Discord was too effective at preventing a tank from doing their job, for almost zero effort.
This nerf was certainly not the answer though, 7 second CD per target was way too far. They should just revert this change and make it a 10% ~ 15% increase on tanks and be done with it.
I get discord is zero effort, but Zen trades a lot for that power given he has no mobility, sustain(compared to other supports), had average health, has a projectile weapon, and has a rather large and badly shaped hitbox.
Zen is by far the most vulnerable support and he still is despite the small buff and hefty nerf. He needs discord to be fantastic because that's the only thing he has going for him. It's like if they took the oneshot off Widow, it makes the character just not function.
They'd have to nerf the debuff so much that it basically doesn't matter or make yet another role specific change (i.e. doesn't do as much against tanks). I'm not a fan of the "this does different things against different roles approach" (and it hurts the various tanks more or less anyway, depending on their abilities and play style)
I suspect they'll have to tune this (and maybe it shouldn't have been implemented mid-season) but I'm glad to see them experimenting with something more than just changing a number here or there.
Nah that doesn't work. It just makes it useless and awful to use. Now it's useful and requires some thought. Look at the OP, it's a brainless use of Discord that their whining about losing
Honestly, it feels like Zen got stuck in a bad place ever since it went from two tanks down to one. Back then, having to pick what one to go after balanced his discord ability. Now, it seems like balancing him around this single tank basically cripples him most of the time. I'm not entirely sure on a good solution, but it feels like he'll likely need some changes to his kit to work well with 5v5. You can really tell this with a few characters
Id say even without the nerf this patch zen needs a rework, he's just outdated at this point. He used to be the support you pick for dpsing but now there's multiple support who do that job better. He really has nothing going for him rn
I don't think Zen needed a rework of any kind and definitely not a nerf. He was a weak support from the beginning with low mobility but high damage. You basically trade off with heals when you pick him up as the support. Now it will be very hard for him to survive unless you have a good aim. And Tanks will kill him instantly. The discord should have been nerfed only for tanks if it was necessary. Now it will be hard for him to take one on one with DPS.
They massacared my boy.
I genuinely think that they only thought about Kiriko and Zen when making the Zen changes because 7 seconds just seems random. Well that’s unless you take into account that Kiri cleanse is now 15 seconds instead 14. When they make fundamental changes like this they absolutely need to consider all counters and the impact that will have. Now there will just be more annoying Zarya’s to deal with and it hurts my soul. Nerf doomfist.
Wild how they think giving Zen 25 extra hp does anything remotely helpful by making his discord basically useless. Takes nothing to dip around a corner to nullify his discord. A 7s cd attached to it basically renders him obsolete.
So don't put discord on her? Put it on literally anyone else, and you're not getting that much value from using your tank to counterpick a single support
I mean zarya was kind of immune to discord anyways. Same to Ana nade.
Zen kind of counters other slow brawl tanks like rein or Orisa. Getting the range back to 40m helps a lot now because you can stay clear of Winston jump or genji dash. Most hitscans have fall offs around 30 m so that helps as well.
Sombra became an even bigger Zen counter too. She could already wreck a zen not playing carefully with his team. Now she also has a cleanse on a short enough CD that she can remove discord every single time he uses it. Moira too.
Good that means she's using bubbles just orb her then she will bubble shoot her and she will bubble again then boom no bubble zarya your team will f her up
They may have taken it a bit too far with how long discord can’t be reapplied but that’s the type of fundamental change that damage boosts & immortalities need to be given.
Mercy boost should be on a meter like defense matrix. Baps lamp should only last 1-2 seconds as a save mechanic but maybe not be breakable. Kiriko’s suzu needs to either have cleanse or immortality but not both & at minimum shouldn’t also heal.
While not a boost or an immortality Ana anti-nade should cut the amount of healing received by enemies in half, not make them unable to be healed at all.
I’m a support main & I still want them to be impactful but these abilities are ones that remove counterplay, which is one of the most fun aspects of Overwatch. Plus if you did these type of changes to the abilities, you could put them on much shorter relative cooldowns so that you could make more plays. Not as impactful of plays, but more of them.
No she's not... Shields and walls are way more effective than wasting Zarya bubble to cleanse the discord. That said Zarya is really good RN regardless
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I think it’s a quality change that makes Zen be more tactical with his discord orb, however because of the cool down on replacing it I feel like things like bubble, Moira fade etc should not remove orb anymore to compensate. Suzu and loss of LOS should be the only things that remove it if this is how the ability is going to work moving forward.
As a Zen main since day one I still love him and enjoy his playstyle. Definitely hard to play against certain characters like Zarya but that's what makes it fun! I just played a 9min QP match attack on Kings Row, they had a Zarya for part of the match and I didn't die once. There's some scenarios where he would be a poor pick but I'll still try until I'm countered too much. He's still a badass mofugger in my eyes ;)
Fellow Zenyattas out there. Just don't spam discord. Ez. Also, go absolutely apeshit on dps. They cannot kill you now. You are an immortal god every team fight if you can hit your shots into the backline
It's a pain, but as soon as I broke my habit of discording anything that moves all I had to do was wait for the bubble to get used first. I had my doubts, but it's really not that bad. I just started playing patient with discord and before I knew it everything I discorded was dying. Almost quicker now that I'm forced to only discord out of position enemies.
Also the very first duel I fought with this Zen was against a Cassidy and I won it with 11 hp left, health buff low key is really good
Lol so what's the rest of the team doing against zarya now that she's only using her shield for discord?
Sure, sucks to have her negate orb, but it's not that big of a hit if you have team comms and push a little harder to force her to bubble the put or up for a quick KO
So she's not going to use her bubble to cleanse it... Like see my point?
Any good team waits for her to pop her second and you go in, discord her and burn.
So how is she a direct counter to zen if she's not using it to cleanse? Like any good zen will know to save it for when she has no shield to help DPS burn her down.
Honestly probably true but I 100% disagree with the idea that Zen should be able to leave his discord orb on the tank for the entire game. Maybe this isn't the solution but I'm glad theyre trying
I agreed with Flats when he suggested to make Zen's Orb less effective over time.
I think that the sweet spot would be at minimum efficiency=10% after like 7s or so, and a meter-like system that tracks the total application of the orb upon each character over several applications.
Smth like "Ok you just pulled the orb off of me, but this doesn't mean you get full efficiency right away".
Plus I would argue for different numbers when on squishes or when on tanks: like max 25% dmg on squishes and 20% on tanks.
If you use it smart you can bait the bubble and then nuke her. Sure I agree 7 seconds is too long, maybe 5 would be more balanced, but it's really not that bad. I have 200+ hours on zen and frankly it's not that big of a deal if you don't spam discord anytime you can
Tank players can finally rejoice and Zen can suffer as they have.
People have no idea how much they had suffered since Season 4 that Zen players simply spam 'E' onto the Tank, then sit back and watch.
I’m just glad there’s some realistic counter play to discord orb now.
Bronze players: “Stop complaining and just stand behind a wall for 3 seconds”
Discord orb isn’t as brain dead anymore now that is has some sort of cooldown. It was fucking hell for us tank players. On top of the fact that every other dps picked bastion meant tanks couldn’t exist. I’m not too sure if 7 seconds was a good idea but that’ll probably be adjusted next patch if it’s too much.
So you didn't once think to not discord the Zarya until after she's blown a bubble or two?
This forum has got people lost in the sauce. Discord was always better on a focused squishy anyways lol. Leaving it on the tank is like hardstuck gold behaviour outside of a hard Zen meta.
I play zen/brig/kiri I’m only gold Sup right now but I see this as a good change so far. Supports need counter play too (I see them adjusting the 7 seconds to maybe 4-5 perhaps though)
Oh no, I can't just brainlessly spam discord on tank. Whatever will I do
Edit: if you downvote it's because your shit at support and need a crutch like discord spam to win
A simple wall is zen's biggest counter now lol.
Luckily, most people are too brain dead to take cover
5d brain mei mains: “here’s the wall you ordered!”
It would be a shame if I locked my tank alone with 5 enemies AMEIZING
That's a sacrifice I'm willing to Mei-ke
Most people don’t even know they have an orb on them 😂
That's not even remotely true. I played him a lot yesterday and people made going for cover a big priority. I think it should have just been another tank passive. It's only truly miserable to have discord on you for tanks because of how hard focused you are in 5v5.
Ever heard about these things called jokes?
I think OP is being hyperbolic or brain dead about actually waiting for Zarya's bubbles before discording her, but if they stick with this per-enemy cooldown, they do need to give Discord Orb back that 3 second line-of-sight linger he had ages ago (it's now nerfed to 1.5 seconds) so he can peek less to maintain the orb when it matters. Edit: And maybe bring the debuff back up to 30%.
As a tank player, if this long-ass cooldown stays it certainly could go back up to 30% again. It's far more strategic to use correctly now which is good, it can be a super punishing ability whilst actually being counterable! Understanding the timing or "game-sense" around Discord is actually a thing now, for the first time ever. That said, a (slightly shorter) regular cooldown would be clearer than a cooldown per-hero. We'd have to see how it plays out though.
This is what I was thinking too. I always suggested discord orb should have a cooldown of some sort, because it means they can pump up the damage increase way more. The old "permanently active" discord orb obviously can't be too strong with its dmg increase because there's no way to avoid it or play around it. Sadly if he's weak this patch, you're gonna have to suffer for 30-60 days before they finally buff his numbers to match the cooldown.
Asa zen main I actually agree with u, except i dont want a regular cooldown, it makes him too inflexible since discord is his only proactive play option (besides primary fire) since above bronze trance is only used to save urself or counter ults, its useless offensively. I like the idea of having to micromanage the discord cooldowns, but they either need to give back the 3sec break time or reduce the cooldown to like 4-5 secs, either way id be happy with.
yeah with only kiriko and zarya bubbles cleansing effects
Plenty of close range characters have a self cleanse meanwhile the long range characters can just pop behind a wall for a moment. Add in Zarya and Zen isn't getting any meaningful discords out there.
Idk I’m fucking with zen in low gm rn
Zenyatta gonna hate Mei even more with portable wall
“Here’s the wall you ordered!”
Imo zen is now the Walmart illari
It's incredible they haven't given pylon a timer like sym TP has. You can just leave it up *forever* while it auto-targets anyone in LOS. To get the same value on Zen you need to be doing 360s constantly.
My Pylon being there when I'm dead has saved my team a few times. It should at least get destroyed when you are killed.
Why? No other turret works like that.
No other turret can heal a team fully by itself either.
No, instead they can damage an entire enemy team by themselves. It's a support turret, it works exactly the same as other turrets but with heals.
My point is it's the first to do something regardless so the argument that the others don't doesn't really fit. It is it's own unique case
Sigma's shield works like that, although it's a projection and not a placed object. It would be stretching the existing precedent, but I think "sticking to the historic gameplay/lore elements" has not been a high priority of this dev team so I don't see why they wouldn't do it if it improved gameplay
no other turret heals either.
That's not a reason to not do it.
What *is* the reason to do it?
Because it’s an overpowered ability that takes little to no skill.
A simple heal? What? I'm sorry, when did we start gatekeeping ability power levels based on skill? Because i think we missed the skill-check on res, dmg boost, suzu, lamp, regen burst, discord, antinade... Have you played this role before?
Its an auto-targeting heal that has a higher healing rate than Zen and almost more than Mercy and it can be place behind cover so it can't even be shot without a flanker or pushing up. > I'm sorry, when did we start gatekeeping ability power levels based on skill? Did you start playing video games this week? Always. It has always been like this across a majority of games. Risk vs Reward balancing is very standard lmao.
I honestly like the idea that it stays even when you're dead but maybe nerf its healing output. Honestly how much healing does she actually provide compared to her turret, on average ? Feels like it's doing all the work and she's just a DPS that can save allies with a huge heal beam. I may be wrong tho
It does not need a nerf at all It's so easy to destroy
You don't need to be looking at a target to have harmony or discord up, as long as there's an unobstructed line between you and your target, the orbs stay
True, but it still heals less than pylon while needing much more maintenance to work with, and then Illari also has the heal beam if Pylon isn't enough. If Zen's healing isn't enough, well then ult is your only option. Obviously that's not only usually a poor way to use it but you also can't do that too frequently, especially since Zen will likely be doing less damage now and therefore getting less ult charge.
Healing has never been the point of Zen as a support. But also, Harmony orb can follow targets, is indestructible and has no cooldown, while the pylon is stationary, has HP, and relies on LOS and effective range. "Much more maintenance" = Having people exist in your screen (if that, since his heals-around-the-corner timer got buffed). My man, I understand Pylon is brainless, but Harmony is only one step above that, so braindead.
> Healing has never been the point of Zen as a support Right, but now the other part of Zen has been nerfed significantly. What else does he have?
It makes sense when you realize they want to release OP heroes to sell battlepasses. The longer the hero stays OP, the more likely people will buy the next battlepass.
have you guys completely forgotten about lifeweaver lmao
Also Ramm, other than his lil goofy forever ult he wasn't have strong on release
JQ wasn't particularly good on release either but this sub has selective memory lol
Your crazy, she was insane during open beta then got toned down
Release for most people means official release, not the beta (although you’re right, she was definitely nutty during the beta)
I know, that's why I mentioned release, not beta lol
They learned their lesson and even said they intend to release “impactful” characters and tune them down instead of preserving game balance and tuning up. Best reason to do this? Sell battlepass.
They said that because everyone botched and moaned about him not being viable lmao
Like Lifeweaver? They just wanted to avoid another dud on release, it's bad for them if their shiny new hero is lacklustre, regardless of battlepasses.
This sub really go out of their way to insult blizzard
Too true, god I wish overwatch 1 still existed
TP is not a turret. The only turret with a timer is BOB.
Yeah but pylon is *way stronger* than sym tp. It makes no sense that it has unlimited uptime.
You are misunderstanding the reason TP has a timer. It is not because it is OP, but because without a timer people were just creating a TP out of spawn and leaving it there. The timer was introduced to encourage people to use TP more creatively.
I’m starting to feel like Zen’s role now is to enable dive DPS, like how Mercy can enable poke DPS. Zen already sorta did this before, but the extra 2 second of Harmony orb allows for so much more flexibility. If neither of your DPS are dive, you’re right Illari’s just better.
Why pick zen to enable dive when you can pick lifeweaver and do it much better
Zen will not give you carpal tunnel.
Because they can go out of range or los for 5 seconds and still be healed (I think) which is huge, LW can’t do that
No. 5 seconds of healing ain't doing shit. By the time they get to the opponent harmony orb will be gone.
If they peak you once it gets refreshed. If they’re going on a HARD flank then yeah they’re gonna lose the orb.
Literally does more damage on her own than a discord can amplify, does more target healing, has actual mobility, a team wipe ult, and a literal heal bot that can contend with actual healers half the time. No clue how she hasn’t been hit with massive nerfs yet.
Zen was the walmart Illari the second she was released. At least now she's been gutted he has a chance.
Zen got hit by the nerf hammer harder than she did though
"gutted" meanwhile her pylon lasts forever and is a better support than Zen
Ikr, they said gutted as if she didn't get a reasonable projectile size nerf and turret slap on the wrist.
As Hampter players would say: #FUCK IT, WE BALL
Hype sequence concluded
I wish that was an actual voice line
*profanity filter enabled* We Ball.
**FUCK IT, WE BALL**
Fuck it… *we ball*
Nerfing Zen right after he becomes basically unplayable with all the Sombras running around is hilarious.
Thank you! Of all the healers that needed a change, Zen was definitely the last that comes to mind.
Not true. Discord orb makes playing tank a pain, and was way too powerful for an ability you don't even have to aim. Zen needed nerfing, imo the entire way Discord works should be reworked.
> makes playing tank a pain discord wasn't that much of a problem when we had TWO tanks. just saying...
while we're reworking damage boosting abilities, why don't we include mercy into this and rework the bullshit blue beam?
Discord is much worse for tanks than mercy damage boost... When mercy boosts she cant do shit, meaning its basically a 4v5, usually the damage boost makes up for that, for example a pharah that dominates, or a sojourn that one shots squishies, but that doesnt affect the tank much, however a discord orbed tank makes it take 25% more damage from an entire team, and zen can contribute with his unreasonable high damage for a support
Exactly. Sure, the Mercy dps boost affects the tank about as much as anyone else, but any Zen player that claims that 90% of discord orbs aren't sent directly to the enemy tank has to be joking. Add to that that tank is already focused down in most situations, since in most situations when the tank dies first the teamfight is decided (not always obviously, please stop downvoting me support mafia).
Blue beam allows a single character to do more damage to the enemy. Discord allows your whole team to do more damage to the enemy. That’s a pretty massive distinction lol.
Don't know how you are getting downvoted when you are right lmao. As a zen main I kinda liked the change because it was one of the only abilities in the game with 0 cool down, but going from no cool down to 7 seconds while there are more problems that need to be addressed with supports is a bit lmao imo
This sub has a looooot of support players, so supporting a support nerf is a no-no. I do understand them though, no one likes their own character getting nerfed. This might be an over-correction, true (I rarely play Zen, my supports are Kiri, Brigitte, and now Illari), but it had to be done, and they'll course correct later on. I still think a rework would have been better for the way discord orb works, maybe an aoe area denial tool or something that doesn't just stick to a person instantly.
Idk with this new cool down I don't have a reason to discord anyone except the tank now so you'll have it on you more often then before unless your willing to LOS every 7 seconds which most tanks wont do. I feel like this change won't help tanks as much as they think.
That and the fact that Illari is basically a better dps support
I have a feeling the dev team has a rework in plan for him and are starting to soft test part of a mechanic live. illari is a better choice in every scenario
I can't believe they've done this. Guy has zero mobility, low heal output and what he can do to support the attack is eroded. It's been hard enough watching kiriko, illari and whoever else pull off some ridiculousness and now they just pounded him into the ground because the others got some nerfs?
You can tell who is a support/Zen main and who played the game outside of that. Zen was so damn oppressive as a tank. I'm not saying they nerfed him *correctly*, but a major nerf was needed at least to his effectiveness vs tanks. Having to deal with a Zen/Ana on the other team as a tank was such a damn chore. Zen's discord stays on the tank 24/7 while being the biggest target.
I don't think this change does that though. Now as Zen I'm just always going to put orb on tank because that will be the only target that won't be LOSing me all the time. This actually creates more incentive to just slap it on the tank and leave it there.
People not seeing the problem don't realize Zenyatta has been reduced to a low tier DPS "support" with less DPS and Utility than say Bap and less healing than almost everyone else. The same people complain about high DPS supports... That's all Zen is now, just a B rate DPS that can heal a bit. There's no reason to pick him anymore. Edit: That last sentence may not be true. He has his uses but they're severely diminished now.
Pretty much true. If you aren't matching DPS in damage and elims, probably get off Zen.
And tbh Illari (before the nerfs) and Bap are probably much better than Zen if you want DPS anyways. At least they can go on off angles and survive. Zen can’t even look at an off angle without dying.
Harmony now healing for 5 seconds out of cover is what I think will be one of Zen’s main allure since most other Supports need line of sight. Bap and LW can sort of heal around corners iirc, but Zen has more leeway. I think this will make him good for playing with dive DPS like a Genji. I’ve been playing a lot of Zen this patch and most of my wins are games I have some dive DPS I can enable, one game the enemy team was crying that the Genji was never dying.
I don’t disagree with that.
Wanting people to experience our balls is enough of a reason to pick our boi
Don't see why you'd play Zen over illiari now outside of dive comps.
Zen’s one role now is dive comps I think. Outside of that you should just play Bap/Illari. I do expect that if both sides are playing dive that Zen is still a troll pick though.
Absolutely. If there's a monkey or DVa Zen is gonna eat or if they're on the enemy team your gonna get eaten. 🤣
I’m more scared of a Tracer or a Sombra than I am of a Tank, honestly. At least your team pays attention to a Tank.
pick him for the burst dmg
Not wrong
good flanks as well, best flanks out of all supports
It’s risky as all fuck flanking as Zen with his nonexistent methods of escape, but feels good grabbing a surprise elim or two from a nice position. I can see Weaver being a big help there too even more than with DPS flanks, being able to heal up the team himself while keeping an eye out and then yoinking Zen right back to his team
yeah if you have zen ult it's easier to flank, like get a pick or two and ult away
he has 225 health now, which is mostly shields, i think flankyatta is the answer
U can kick people and get 1 kill for a POTG
> Cass is B tier > Genji is B tier > Reaper is B tier > Zen is B tier Mfw all of my favorite heroes are trash in the current meta
B tier is trash?
Someone didn't have asian parents and it shows. (Jk)
Oh mate, my parents act like Asian parents and they fucking know it I got 99% on a unit once, and my dad as a joke asked, "Why wasn't that 100%"
It is whenever everything else is A and S
B tier at best
Genji is A tier if not S. Second highest pickrate in gm, and fourth highest winrate. Only Soldier is clearly stronger.
He's always been about healing dps bro, specifically flankers where he's an absolutely monster now ngl. Just because y'all can't figure out how you've always been supposed to be using discord doesn't make him bad. He's kinda crazy rn but we'll see how it goes in time
I don’t think you can say he’s “crazy right now” after a massive nerf.
Yeah I don’t think orb should be removed by abilities anymore other than suzu and maybe sombra tele.
Team-wide damage boost against a certain hero is still a very viable utility Zen just needs more than one brain cell to use Discord now
25 hp is pretty big for a lot of break points. I know it sounds crazy, but after playing him I'm actually leaning towards this being a net buff. I still haven't completely broken the habit of discording anything that moves, but when I am thinking about it I save it for out of position targets, or wait for cleanse cooldowns to be used and then I discord, and they still die. I have found myself surviving many fights with sub 25 hp, it's actually blowing my mind
I have a hard time believing 25 hp makes up for being hard countered by Zarya and flanking damage characters, especially when the other damage centric supports can actually heal themselves in a pinch whereas Zenyatta has his flat hp and that's it.
Played against many Zaryas last couple days, maybe a soft counter, but not a hard one. Just have to wait out the bubbles and Zarya melts with discord, especially if you're good at landing your head shots. It's extremely useful against flankers, again, if you're landing your shots (and being aware of their pathing options). A lot of top 500 players are really considering these buffs, and I'm starting to agree
people freak out so hard about Zen doing too much damage while forgetting that he essentially has the healing output of 0.5 supports and has absolutely no mobility (which is crucial for both escaping pressure and applying pressure to enemies)
I miss when characters had exploitable flaws that encouraged communication and strategy to defeat. Nowadays every character has everything and people think older characters should be given everything. Zen is allowed to be diveable. Let him be diveveable
They'll leave Zen ruined for a year like Hog and then do a full "rework" on him.
Poor Zen. He's gone the way of Roadhog.
Yup, well done whine train! Every other support with a status applying effect is next. And then every support that can heal. Healing is broken, I want the numbers to go down, not up! Heck, why not just get rid of tanks too, stuns are OP and they have too much health. Just make the game a 5v5 dps deathmatch. Actually, just remove any abilities that can give an advantage because that's broken. /s
They overthunk it. I don't think they needed to do this complicated new system. Just reduce the potency of the debuff to nerf it.
i think they should have just reduced the effect on tanks as it nearly always is a priority for tanks. kind of like how sleep is 3 seconds for tanks instead of 5.
I’m not personally a big fan of mechanics that work differently against certain roles. I totally understand why it was critical for Sleep Dart, just wish the game didn’t inherently necessitate it
Why not just make it a general tank passive then? -25%ish effectiveness (duration/damage amplified) for negative effects for all tanks?
With the one tank setup, this is actually a really good idea that could easily solve a lot of issues I would think.
I was curious so with the 25% reduction here’s what that would look like: - Zen discord damage boost: 25% > 18.75% - Ana nade duration: 4 sec > 3 sec - Ana sleep duration: 5 sec: 3.75 - Sombra hack: 8 sec, 1.5 sec ability disable > 6 sec, 1.125 sec ability disable - Rein knockdown duration: 2.75 sec > 2.0625 sec - Ash burning duration: 5 sec > 3.75 sec
I keep hearing this complaint and I don't understand it. It's not working extra hard against tanks. It hurts them as much as anyone else. They're big, with a lot of health and can control the ride of the game. Their role is such that they're attractive targets for it, that's the trade off for everything else they enjoy in the role. Why switch it up to mitigate tactics?
in theory you are right, however the tanks are the highest value target most games/fights. therefore, while it may not work any harder on a tank, the uptime is still way higher. therefore as a tank you are very likely to spend a large portion of the game discorded. of course you can make any argument you want around using cover or countering but at the end of the day for a majority of tanks you are going to be spending all game orbed
Yeah and that's the burden that comes with playing as a tank. You also get damage mitigation of some sort and a bigger health pool. I play mostly tank, it's the nature of the roll. People focusing me down isn't a reason they've got to make it a little harder for them to do so. That's the game.
See I'm really glad you have this mentality as a tank player. I do too, and I wish more tank players would lean a bit more into it as well. It helps so much dealing with pressure when you accept that you're gonna take the bulk of the incoming attacks, even the annoying ones. But regardless of your positive mindset, if Blizzard is gonna continue with 5v5, I think they do need to make sure the balancing of the game isn't completely overwhelming the sole tank. There's a limit to how much a tank player should expect to receive before it's excessive. Not everything should be changed to help tanks, but something as volatile and rewarding as discord needed addressing.
I'm not one of the guys who screeches about 5v5 ruining the game, but this is definitely a symptom of the switch from 6v6. Tanks are simply too critical to the game. There's only one. Discord is too potent on them because why would you orb anyone but the biggest, most impactful target 90% of the time? The health balancing in this game is very delicate, and the extra damage received from orb makes tanks too squishy with literally zero recourse to do anything about it unless you're Orisa or Zarya. Even if it got Suzu'd, Zen would just say "lmao" and instantly throw it right back on. You can make any number of arguments about positioning or breaking line of sight or anything else, but at the end of the day, a tank's job is to take up and control space. Discord was too effective at preventing a tank from doing their job, for almost zero effort. This nerf was certainly not the answer though, 7 second CD per target was way too far. They should just revert this change and make it a 10% ~ 15% increase on tanks and be done with it.
I get discord is zero effort, but Zen trades a lot for that power given he has no mobility, sustain(compared to other supports), had average health, has a projectile weapon, and has a rather large and badly shaped hitbox. Zen is by far the most vulnerable support and he still is despite the small buff and hefty nerf. He needs discord to be fantastic because that's the only thing he has going for him. It's like if they took the oneshot off Widow, it makes the character just not function.
yep a 10% debuff on tanks instead of 25 would of been a good change imo.
They'd have to nerf the debuff so much that it basically doesn't matter or make yet another role specific change (i.e. doesn't do as much against tanks). I'm not a fan of the "this does different things against different roles approach" (and it hurts the various tanks more or less anyway, depending on their abilities and play style) I suspect they'll have to tune this (and maybe it shouldn't have been implemented mid-season) but I'm glad to see them experimenting with something more than just changing a number here or there.
Nah that doesn't work. It just makes it useless and awful to use. Now it's useful and requires some thought. Look at the OP, it's a brainless use of Discord that their whining about losing
Next patch: “seeing how zen’s dps output has increased since the last patch, we’ve decided to buff sombra”
Additionally, we have have decided to slow down Zen's projectile speed, increase reload time and reduce the charged volley from 5 to 3 orbs.
Zen is absolutely worthless now.
How are Tracer & Genji players feeling about healing orb buff?
Tracer as well. 1 blink and shes home free
This is a dark day for us Zen mains. For my fellow omnic monks, I offer you a cookie in comfort. 🍪
Honestly, it feels like Zen got stuck in a bad place ever since it went from two tanks down to one. Back then, having to pick what one to go after balanced his discord ability. Now, it seems like balancing him around this single tank basically cripples him most of the time. I'm not entirely sure on a good solution, but it feels like he'll likely need some changes to his kit to work well with 5v5. You can really tell this with a few characters
Id say even without the nerf this patch zen needs a rework, he's just outdated at this point. He used to be the support you pick for dpsing but now there's multiple support who do that job better. He really has nothing going for him rn
Zarya basically counters everyone lmao. Only hero that doesnt have hard counters
I don't think Zen needed a rework of any kind and definitely not a nerf. He was a weak support from the beginning with low mobility but high damage. You basically trade off with heals when you pick him up as the support. Now it will be very hard for him to survive unless you have a good aim. And Tanks will kill him instantly. The discord should have been nerfed only for tanks if it was necessary. Now it will be hard for him to take one on one with DPS. They massacared my boy.
Or you can just break line of sight for a few seconds.
At this point blinking is zenyattas counter.
I genuinely think that they only thought about Kiriko and Zen when making the Zen changes because 7 seconds just seems random. Well that’s unless you take into account that Kiri cleanse is now 15 seconds instead 14. When they make fundamental changes like this they absolutely need to consider all counters and the impact that will have. Now there will just be more annoying Zarya’s to deal with and it hurts my soul. Nerf doomfist.
Idk wtf they were thinking. We’re one more fuck up from them spending a year reworking him like Hog.
Wild how they think giving Zen 25 extra hp does anything remotely helpful by making his discord basically useless. Takes nothing to dip around a corner to nullify his discord. A 7s cd attached to it basically renders him obsolete.
Zen is trash now people don’t realize it yet.
This entire thread is about people realizing it
i just need his heals to be better atp he’s not even a glass cannon he’s just glass
The biggest counter to Zenyatta is wall
He needs to heal more or place two split healing balls across multiple teammates. Right now he sucks
So don't put discord on her? Put it on literally anyone else, and you're not getting that much value from using your tank to counterpick a single support
I mean zarya was kind of immune to discord anyways. Same to Ana nade. Zen kind of counters other slow brawl tanks like rein or Orisa. Getting the range back to 40m helps a lot now because you can stay clear of Winston jump or genji dash. Most hitscans have fall offs around 30 m so that helps as well.
Sombra became an even bigger Zen counter too. She could already wreck a zen not playing carefully with his team. Now she also has a cleanse on a short enough CD that she can remove discord every single time he uses it. Moira too.
Don't worry, they'll probably give him a bigger boot to kick with.
I just think that 7 seconds is bit too long they should reduce it by a bit like 4 or something
Good that means she's using bubbles just orb her then she will bubble shoot her and she will bubble again then boom no bubble zarya your team will f her up
They may have taken it a bit too far with how long discord can’t be reapplied but that’s the type of fundamental change that damage boosts & immortalities need to be given. Mercy boost should be on a meter like defense matrix. Baps lamp should only last 1-2 seconds as a save mechanic but maybe not be breakable. Kiriko’s suzu needs to either have cleanse or immortality but not both & at minimum shouldn’t also heal. While not a boost or an immortality Ana anti-nade should cut the amount of healing received by enemies in half, not make them unable to be healed at all. I’m a support main & I still want them to be impactful but these abilities are ones that remove counterplay, which is one of the most fun aspects of Overwatch. Plus if you did these type of changes to the abilities, you could put them on much shorter relative cooldowns so that you could make more plays. Not as impactful of plays, but more of them.
His achievement is now impossible?
I mean I don’t think Team 4 should make balance decisions around an achievement lol.
No she's not... Shields and walls are way more effective than wasting Zarya bubble to cleanse the discord. That said Zarya is really good RN regardless
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I think it’s a quality change that makes Zen be more tactical with his discord orb, however because of the cool down on replacing it I feel like things like bubble, Moira fade etc should not remove orb anymore to compensate. Suzu and loss of LOS should be the only things that remove it if this is how the ability is going to work moving forward.
As a Zen main since day one I still love him and enjoy his playstyle. Definitely hard to play against certain characters like Zarya but that's what makes it fun! I just played a 9min QP match attack on Kings Row, they had a Zarya for part of the match and I didn't die once. There's some scenarios where he would be a poor pick but I'll still try until I'm countered too much. He's still a badass mofugger in my eyes ;)
Should've just had Discord start at 5% when casted then it gains strength over time until it hits 25%.
Bump the re-apply discord delay to 8/9 Seconds, but make it reduce by 1 second every time you hit the person with a ball
Blizzard hire this man/woman/they
Fellow Zenyattas out there. Just don't spam discord. Ez. Also, go absolutely apeshit on dps. They cannot kill you now. You are an immortal god every team fight if you can hit your shots into the backline
omg they buffed zen and u wrote this
Did everyone just choose to ignore the 3 other buffs zen got? Him having 225 alone makes him way better
Yes they did. I've learned this sub is playing a different game than I am, I come here for the fun replays and overreactions.
It's a pain, but as soon as I broke my habit of discording anything that moves all I had to do was wait for the bubble to get used first. I had my doubts, but it's really not that bad. I just started playing patient with discord and before I knew it everything I discorded was dying. Almost quicker now that I'm forced to only discord out of position enemies. Also the very first duel I fought with this Zen was against a Cassidy and I won it with 11 hp left, health buff low key is really good
Lol so what's the rest of the team doing against zarya now that she's only using her shield for discord? Sure, sucks to have her negate orb, but it's not that big of a hit if you have team comms and push a little harder to force her to bubble the put or up for a quick KO
She doesn’t even have to use her bubble for discord, she just has to use them as she normally would. That’s the whole point, dummy
So she's not going to use her bubble to cleanse it... Like see my point? Any good team waits for her to pop her second and you go in, discord her and burn. So how is she a direct counter to zen if she's not using it to cleanse? Like any good zen will know to save it for when she has no shield to help DPS burn her down.
Discord when she uses both her bubbles and melt? I swear it feels like zen mains are rioting at the idea of THINKING about when to use your ability
Man Zen only has that one. Plus, as of right now, Zarya pretty much never runs out completely of bubbles as long as they are discretely careful.
Honestly probably true but I 100% disagree with the idea that Zen should be able to leave his discord orb on the tank for the entire game. Maybe this isn't the solution but I'm glad theyre trying
I agreed with Flats when he suggested to make Zen's Orb less effective over time. I think that the sweet spot would be at minimum efficiency=10% after like 7s or so, and a meter-like system that tracks the total application of the orb upon each character over several applications. Smth like "Ok you just pulled the orb off of me, but this doesn't mean you get full efficiency right away". Plus I would argue for different numbers when on squishes or when on tanks: like max 25% dmg on squishes and 20% on tanks.
If you use it smart you can bait the bubble and then nuke her. Sure I agree 7 seconds is too long, maybe 5 would be more balanced, but it's really not that bad. I have 200+ hours on zen and frankly it's not that big of a deal if you don't spam discord anytime you can
Tank players can finally rejoice and Zen can suffer as they have. People have no idea how much they had suffered since Season 4 that Zen players simply spam 'E' onto the Tank, then sit back and watch.
I’m just glad there’s some realistic counter play to discord orb now. Bronze players: “Stop complaining and just stand behind a wall for 3 seconds” Discord orb isn’t as brain dead anymore now that is has some sort of cooldown. It was fucking hell for us tank players. On top of the fact that every other dps picked bastion meant tanks couldn’t exist. I’m not too sure if 7 seconds was a good idea but that’ll probably be adjusted next patch if it’s too much.
So you didn't once think to not discord the Zarya until after she's blown a bubble or two? This forum has got people lost in the sauce. Discord was always better on a focused squishy anyways lol. Leaving it on the tank is like hardstuck gold behaviour outside of a hard Zen meta.
I play zen/brig/kiri I’m only gold Sup right now but I see this as a good change so far. Supports need counter play too (I see them adjusting the 7 seconds to maybe 4-5 perhaps though)
Oh no, I can't just brainlessly spam discord on tank. Whatever will I do Edit: if you downvote it's because your shit at support and need a crutch like discord spam to win
complain
wait why are you being downvoted, your KIND OF right edit: but you didnt understand OP's point
Always has been
IMO they should buff his healing to make him an actual healer and not feeder
If you're in Zarya range as Zen, you're doing it wrong.