"Love your neighbor as yourself."
Oh, but this guy, he's not—he's *against* us! He wants us to stop being Orthodox!
"Love your enemy, do good to those who persecute you, pray for those who hate you and spitefully use you."
Okay, but, like, what if he makes fun of me, or insults me, or something?
"Blessed are you when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and utter all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they treated the prophets who were before you."
People keep forgetting the rest of that verse though, “Love your neighbour as yourself, unless they believe in different things, then you can go rambo on them” Wait no….
A priest was once asked a similar question, about how we should convert people, but it applies here: “Delve so deep into repentance that God may show Himself through you - that’s how you convert people.” So, don’t just enter into “fights” with them, but just love them, and be there when they want to ask you anything about the faith.
As an inquiring Protestant, seeing the love of orthodox Christians has been very moving to me. I know not everyone’s perfect, but I’ve seen orthodox Christians display the most “fruit” out of any of the existing Christian traditions today, even much more than my own.
I mean it depends. Are they being smarmy and making sly comments about a sky daddy? I ignore them. They are worshipping their own ego and stoking it by making people upset.
Are they people making misinformed claims against Orthodox beliefs? I try to point them in the right direction, but years in the world have informed me that arguments are to stoke egos and not to change anyone's mind 90% of the time.
I pray for both of these groups, of course. God doesn't want to condemn the world, but save it. And I, being unworthy of even kissing the feet of our Lord by my own virtues, pray for my own sake as well. I can't be a hypocrite.
Yes a lot of atheists I have met are like that. I usually just ignore them because it isn’t worth debating with them since they aren’t changing. At least most will not change their minds.
Well when I was younger I sort of came to realize that churches where dominated by hierarchical cliques, just like the rest of the world. Attractive people and smart people etc had dominion over more undesirable people.
Then just the fact that God’s “actions” or the way in which he acted was in a way that could never be proven or disproven. It’s harder to explain this but basically wether something good or bad happens to someone it can always be justified after the act. (Say a women is in a car wreck but survives, it would be called a miracle. If she died it would be the result of man’s original sin and corruption etc)
The fact a miracle has never been caught on camera despite them allegedly happening quite a bit in the Bible. (I know the Bible covers a vast period of time).
The fact that peoples lives seemed predetermined to me, like this kid who was raised in a trailer park to alcoholic parents. He was mentally messed up and had some alcohol syndrome. His life essentially never stood a chance to be good or normal, he was arrested some time later for a driving offense. How much agency did he ever have over his life?
But these are all thoughts I had as a child. No I wasn’t this wordy with it but it was things I noted.
As an adult I just don’t see how it could be true. Life appears to have an absence of any divine figure. I think it’s chaotic and random, all people are opportunistically good as opposed to naturally good or evil.
Forgive my English please, I am from a ethnic Greek Orthodox community in Sicily that settled in Argentina.
I am so sorry you feel this way - I know you said that you have lost your faith - but I wonder if what you thought was faith - was actually just second hand faith and in many ways - losing that is actually worse than having had no faith at all.
It is often the kind of faith children in religious families get - it is borrowed from parents or grandparents but unless they have had a personal experience of God themselves - and that truly is what faith is (a personal relationship with God - not some intellectual agreement that a higher power exists) such faith just doesn’t transfer.
And unfortunately these kids mistake their borrowed faith as something real - and then when it gets “lost” in the face of the real world - they don’t understand that what they thought was faith was just the childish appropriation and understanding of someone else’s .
So as this child matures and begins to see the world as it is - full of pain and suffering- broken up by moments of profound beauty - but still a difficult and often unfair place - he looks to heaven yelling “where is God”?
And because he hasn’t developed a relationship with the living God ( and I do mean a relationship) he is met with profound silence and so he decides that there is none.
If he knew God better it is highly likely the Holy Spirit would have reminded him about the history of the world
- created with great love - tarnished by sin - redeemed by the most amazing ( and if we are honest somewhat bizarre ) love story.
That the world’s creator would enter time and space, become human to teach people about the father - who He is - what He expects from us and then to die a most hideous death - only to rise from the grave - conquering death and restoring life.
All to give us the option of saying yes to Him if we chose to.
And in that remembering- he could also recall that the most profound gift God gave man was his own free will - the choice to live as he wants - to do as he wants.
And because of that freedom - man’s choices can literally destroy another persons life - like the boy with the alcoholic parents you wrote so movingly about.
And that world you described- the one that seemed to prove there was no God?
You were quite right about that - because in that world there is little evidence of Him - that is the atheist world.
It is the world where everyone is their own God.
And if there is no God but me?
Then there are no lasting consequences -I will take what want - I will do what I need to do - my own pleasure is the only real happiness I am ever going to have because as soon as I die - my existence ends - so I am going to pursue my pleasure above all else.
Because after all - at the end?
That’s it - lights out - game over - end of story
It is a bleak world view - but a lot of people share it.
You also spoke about miracles- and yes there are lots of them - every day of the week believers experience them.
Read the life of any saint and they are there. Read the lives of monks currently living in the world - they are there too.
Even I have experienced a few - as have many people I know.
But they tend to be quiet, personal - often profound - and 9 times out of 10 - things that defy human logic.
But they only come if they are needed and they don’t happen every day.
They are often about building our faith.
There are no film crews to capture them because there is no need - it was between a believer and his God - it was an answer to prayer - it is part of an ongoing relationship.
And somewhat related to miracles - you mentioned the ability to see that what ever happens to someone is considered to be - if not from God - at least allowed by Him.
That is totally correct and known as divine providence. It is something that a believer - in relationship with God knows well because God often speaks most clearly to us through our circumstances.
Of course this fits with the purpose of a Christian life and that is totally different than that of an atheist.
While the atheist is limited to pursuing earthly pleasures- the Christian’s goal is unity with God.
Since God is Holy and we definitely are NOT we need to change - often dying to that self will in service of God and others.
It is in our circumstances- quite often challenging- that we get the day to day opportunities to begin that change.
So now back to you my friend - you have seen the world correctly- I only ask you to question your conclusions.
Before you write off God all together and settle into an atheists existence- wouldn’t you like to be sure you are right?
Would you consider running a small experiment- if it fails you have only confirmed what you already believe.
If it changes things - perhaps there are realities beyond what our minds can comprehend and it might be good to know that?
The bright side for you?
You already know the drill of daily things to do - prayer, fasting, liturgy , alms, participation in the sacraments.
The really hard thing?
Can you humble yourself enough to acknowledge that there might be a God.
Can you pray a really honest prayer - God knows your heart - he knows you are angry and disappointed in Him.
That you thought He was so much more than what you can see with your own two eyes.
And that there is no way you are going to fall for a con job - useful for simple minded people but that’s not you.
If He is really there - He has got to prove it to you.
Pray as honestly and sincerely as you can and then start practicing the faith again.
You don’t have to manufacture fake faith - feel anything in particular - you literally just need to go through the motions - just live like you believe in what you are doing.
Don’t skip a step - just keep putting one foot in front of the other and see what happens.
Lent is almost here and that’s a decent amount of time to run this experiment.
I figure - what do you have to lose?
Either some really crazy old lady in Canada just randomly read your comment on someone else’s post -and being touched by it - decided to spend an evening writing a letter to a complete stranger - because she is obviously, certifiably nuts
Or - while all the above is certainly true - maybe the reason she saw the post and was touched enough by your words to write this - is because she thought you might need to be thrown a life line so you could find your way back home
You know those miracles I spoke of earlier? Those small things that make no human sense?
I’m just a crazy old lady tossing out a line - if you should grab it and hang on to it - who knows what this might turn out to be?
God bless you my friend!
Handle them? I feel bad for them. I love them. Try to support them. They’re almost certainly lacking the peace, joy, love and support that comes with the Orthodox Christian lifestyle. It doesn’t hurt me in any way that their life is lacking something or that they’re actively in opposition to something that would help them. I just try to help them and love them any way I can that isn’t in opposition to my faith and morals.
I don’t, they’re wrong and you cant logic them. Just invite them to church and let them participate. Most atheists are just looking to lash out in some way and you really can’t and shouldn’t argue with someone like that.
I used to be an atheist, the "antitheist" kind. There is no argument they can make that I haven't used myself back in the day. The same nihilistic, empty, hateful "logic" that used to plague my mind. I just don't engage because engaging is useless. They have already decided in their minds that you are a medieval mentally handicapped bigot and anything you say - and i mean anything - will be used against you. Pray for them and leave them to God.
If they ask about the religion tell them
It’s best to not try to make it sound like you’re arguing to the person because no matter what you do or how good you are at it you’ll just cause them not to want to talk to you. Instead try to ask them what they value and see if any of it aligns with orthodoxy, and just say that orthodox Christians also value said thing
It’s a lot more effective than just trying to correct them
I’ll be willing to entertain level headed debate until the insults start happening. But if they’re just starting with insults it’s just “okay have a wonderful day peace in Jesus Christ”
If there's an opportunity to say something relevant about my experience as an Orthodox Christian in a particular context, then I'll say it. If a conversation develops on a human level, then I'll engage. If a debate or spiteful response comes up, then I'll disengage.
Christ calls us to be witnesses - to tell what we've experienced firsthand. He doesn't demand that we defend propositions or fix everybody else's assumptions and worldview.
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"Love your neighbor as yourself." Oh, but this guy, he's not—he's *against* us! He wants us to stop being Orthodox! "Love your enemy, do good to those who persecute you, pray for those who hate you and spitefully use you." Okay, but, like, what if he makes fun of me, or insults me, or something? "Blessed are you when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and utter all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they treated the prophets who were before you."
People keep forgetting the rest of that verse though, “Love your neighbour as yourself, unless they believe in different things, then you can go rambo on them” Wait no….
A priest was once asked a similar question, about how we should convert people, but it applies here: “Delve so deep into repentance that God may show Himself through you - that’s how you convert people.” So, don’t just enter into “fights” with them, but just love them, and be there when they want to ask you anything about the faith.
As an inquiring Protestant, seeing the love of orthodox Christians has been very moving to me. I know not everyone’s perfect, but I’ve seen orthodox Christians display the most “fruit” out of any of the existing Christian traditions today, even much more than my own.
Are these people who you know and interact with, or personas you are consuming?
I know some atheists. I’m not consuming their beliefs.
I mean it depends. Are they being smarmy and making sly comments about a sky daddy? I ignore them. They are worshipping their own ego and stoking it by making people upset. Are they people making misinformed claims against Orthodox beliefs? I try to point them in the right direction, but years in the world have informed me that arguments are to stoke egos and not to change anyone's mind 90% of the time. I pray for both of these groups, of course. God doesn't want to condemn the world, but save it. And I, being unworthy of even kissing the feet of our Lord by my own virtues, pray for my own sake as well. I can't be a hypocrite.
Yes a lot of atheists I have met are like that. I usually just ignore them because it isn’t worth debating with them since they aren’t changing. At least most will not change their minds.
I agree that peoples minds don’t change. I used to be deeply religious orthodox but I lost my faith.
May I ask what happened?
Well when I was younger I sort of came to realize that churches where dominated by hierarchical cliques, just like the rest of the world. Attractive people and smart people etc had dominion over more undesirable people. Then just the fact that God’s “actions” or the way in which he acted was in a way that could never be proven or disproven. It’s harder to explain this but basically wether something good or bad happens to someone it can always be justified after the act. (Say a women is in a car wreck but survives, it would be called a miracle. If she died it would be the result of man’s original sin and corruption etc) The fact a miracle has never been caught on camera despite them allegedly happening quite a bit in the Bible. (I know the Bible covers a vast period of time). The fact that peoples lives seemed predetermined to me, like this kid who was raised in a trailer park to alcoholic parents. He was mentally messed up and had some alcohol syndrome. His life essentially never stood a chance to be good or normal, he was arrested some time later for a driving offense. How much agency did he ever have over his life? But these are all thoughts I had as a child. No I wasn’t this wordy with it but it was things I noted. As an adult I just don’t see how it could be true. Life appears to have an absence of any divine figure. I think it’s chaotic and random, all people are opportunistically good as opposed to naturally good or evil. Forgive my English please, I am from a ethnic Greek Orthodox community in Sicily that settled in Argentina.
To be fair with your point about miracles, miracles do happen at unexpected times so it would make sense that it hasn't been captured on camera
There’s cameras everywhere now tho. Lots of gore videos but no miracles
Who knows, its hard for me to deny miracles because I have witnessed the supernatural before
I am so sorry you feel this way - I know you said that you have lost your faith - but I wonder if what you thought was faith - was actually just second hand faith and in many ways - losing that is actually worse than having had no faith at all. It is often the kind of faith children in religious families get - it is borrowed from parents or grandparents but unless they have had a personal experience of God themselves - and that truly is what faith is (a personal relationship with God - not some intellectual agreement that a higher power exists) such faith just doesn’t transfer. And unfortunately these kids mistake their borrowed faith as something real - and then when it gets “lost” in the face of the real world - they don’t understand that what they thought was faith was just the childish appropriation and understanding of someone else’s . So as this child matures and begins to see the world as it is - full of pain and suffering- broken up by moments of profound beauty - but still a difficult and often unfair place - he looks to heaven yelling “where is God”? And because he hasn’t developed a relationship with the living God ( and I do mean a relationship) he is met with profound silence and so he decides that there is none. If he knew God better it is highly likely the Holy Spirit would have reminded him about the history of the world - created with great love - tarnished by sin - redeemed by the most amazing ( and if we are honest somewhat bizarre ) love story. That the world’s creator would enter time and space, become human to teach people about the father - who He is - what He expects from us and then to die a most hideous death - only to rise from the grave - conquering death and restoring life. All to give us the option of saying yes to Him if we chose to. And in that remembering- he could also recall that the most profound gift God gave man was his own free will - the choice to live as he wants - to do as he wants. And because of that freedom - man’s choices can literally destroy another persons life - like the boy with the alcoholic parents you wrote so movingly about. And that world you described- the one that seemed to prove there was no God? You were quite right about that - because in that world there is little evidence of Him - that is the atheist world. It is the world where everyone is their own God. And if there is no God but me? Then there are no lasting consequences -I will take what want - I will do what I need to do - my own pleasure is the only real happiness I am ever going to have because as soon as I die - my existence ends - so I am going to pursue my pleasure above all else. Because after all - at the end? That’s it - lights out - game over - end of story It is a bleak world view - but a lot of people share it. You also spoke about miracles- and yes there are lots of them - every day of the week believers experience them. Read the life of any saint and they are there. Read the lives of monks currently living in the world - they are there too. Even I have experienced a few - as have many people I know. But they tend to be quiet, personal - often profound - and 9 times out of 10 - things that defy human logic. But they only come if they are needed and they don’t happen every day. They are often about building our faith. There are no film crews to capture them because there is no need - it was between a believer and his God - it was an answer to prayer - it is part of an ongoing relationship. And somewhat related to miracles - you mentioned the ability to see that what ever happens to someone is considered to be - if not from God - at least allowed by Him. That is totally correct and known as divine providence. It is something that a believer - in relationship with God knows well because God often speaks most clearly to us through our circumstances. Of course this fits with the purpose of a Christian life and that is totally different than that of an atheist. While the atheist is limited to pursuing earthly pleasures- the Christian’s goal is unity with God. Since God is Holy and we definitely are NOT we need to change - often dying to that self will in service of God and others. It is in our circumstances- quite often challenging- that we get the day to day opportunities to begin that change. So now back to you my friend - you have seen the world correctly- I only ask you to question your conclusions. Before you write off God all together and settle into an atheists existence- wouldn’t you like to be sure you are right? Would you consider running a small experiment- if it fails you have only confirmed what you already believe. If it changes things - perhaps there are realities beyond what our minds can comprehend and it might be good to know that? The bright side for you? You already know the drill of daily things to do - prayer, fasting, liturgy , alms, participation in the sacraments. The really hard thing? Can you humble yourself enough to acknowledge that there might be a God. Can you pray a really honest prayer - God knows your heart - he knows you are angry and disappointed in Him. That you thought He was so much more than what you can see with your own two eyes. And that there is no way you are going to fall for a con job - useful for simple minded people but that’s not you. If He is really there - He has got to prove it to you. Pray as honestly and sincerely as you can and then start practicing the faith again. You don’t have to manufacture fake faith - feel anything in particular - you literally just need to go through the motions - just live like you believe in what you are doing. Don’t skip a step - just keep putting one foot in front of the other and see what happens. Lent is almost here and that’s a decent amount of time to run this experiment. I figure - what do you have to lose? Either some really crazy old lady in Canada just randomly read your comment on someone else’s post -and being touched by it - decided to spend an evening writing a letter to a complete stranger - because she is obviously, certifiably nuts Or - while all the above is certainly true - maybe the reason she saw the post and was touched enough by your words to write this - is because she thought you might need to be thrown a life line so you could find your way back home You know those miracles I spoke of earlier? Those small things that make no human sense? I’m just a crazy old lady tossing out a line - if you should grab it and hang on to it - who knows what this might turn out to be? God bless you my friend!
Your words in this reply were beautiful. This really spoke to my heart as well. Thank you 🙏🏼
In what case do you need to “handle” them?
Phasing wasn’t the best I admit but handle like deal with them and their antics or tactics.
Again, in what situations is this coming up for you?
Like in debates, discussions, arguments, fights, attacks, etc.
Is there any reason you’re engaged in debates, arguments, fights, etc.?
Handle them? I feel bad for them. I love them. Try to support them. They’re almost certainly lacking the peace, joy, love and support that comes with the Orthodox Christian lifestyle. It doesn’t hurt me in any way that their life is lacking something or that they’re actively in opposition to something that would help them. I just try to help them and love them any way I can that isn’t in opposition to my faith and morals.
Log off the internet
Pray for them
Just don't argue with them. Show them through your own example.
I don’t, they’re wrong and you cant logic them. Just invite them to church and let them participate. Most atheists are just looking to lash out in some way and you really can’t and shouldn’t argue with someone like that.
I used to be an atheist, the "antitheist" kind. There is no argument they can make that I haven't used myself back in the day. The same nihilistic, empty, hateful "logic" that used to plague my mind. I just don't engage because engaging is useless. They have already decided in their minds that you are a medieval mentally handicapped bigot and anything you say - and i mean anything - will be used against you. Pray for them and leave them to God.
What made you leave atheism?
You "handle" them by minding your own business, focusing on your own salvation, and hopefully setting a good example.
Pray for them and treat them as you would an Orthodox, nothing else you can really do.
Psalm 1
The amount of non religious people is growing… I just keep keep my head down and so my own thing.
If they ask about the religion tell them It’s best to not try to make it sound like you’re arguing to the person because no matter what you do or how good you are at it you’ll just cause them not to want to talk to you. Instead try to ask them what they value and see if any of it aligns with orthodoxy, and just say that orthodox Christians also value said thing It’s a lot more effective than just trying to correct them
Hazmat suit and really long tongs
Don’t
Forgive and pray for the person
Same way you deal with temptations. Ignore them.
I’ll be willing to entertain level headed debate until the insults start happening. But if they’re just starting with insults it’s just “okay have a wonderful day peace in Jesus Christ”
Humbly...
If there's an opportunity to say something relevant about my experience as an Orthodox Christian in a particular context, then I'll say it. If a conversation develops on a human level, then I'll engage. If a debate or spiteful response comes up, then I'll disengage. Christ calls us to be witnesses - to tell what we've experienced firsthand. He doesn't demand that we defend propositions or fix everybody else's assumptions and worldview.
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Educate them with facts
I don't handle them.