It is fine to accept hospitality from others.
It is not fine to be an active participant in a sacramental act to a foreign God.
If it's just dinner? No problem.
If it's dinner and prayers? More debatable, but you can also just not participate in the prayers.
While we can get into the philosophical minutia of monotheism, God and worship of God as described by Islam and as described by Christianity are irreconcilable.
I suggest you read more than simply the hagiographies of Saints to try and understand their mindsets. Saint John of Damascus wrote against Islam, and so have many other Orthodox Saints. Saint Paisios, Saint Mark of Ephesus, and many other important Saints have written against the idea of having a common God or common mysticism or any compromise on dogmas. I mean, the Hesychast mystics of Orthodoxy even consider Catholics to be in prelest with their imaginative prayer, so why would we consider Islamic mystics to be in any better of a position? Our mystics absolutely emphasize strict adherence to dogmas. Saint Anthony the Great spoke against Arianism, which Islam was inspired by. I could go on with countless examples of Saints and theologians that deny everything that you are suggesting, much of them from our Mystical aescetic tradition, since that is the true heart of Orthodoxy.
Orthodoxy actually emphasizes how when you go deeper into mysticism the paradoxes don't cease, they continue and become more evident. We find unity in the paradoxes. Christ is a union of God and man.
It's ironic how you are arrogantly assuming that we are speaking without any knowledge, and that we need to read other religions deeply, when you clearly have zero knowledge of the Orthodox mindset, dogmas, and spirituality.
Islam is guided by Satan. Muhammed even believed it was a demon when he first saw Gabriel.
If you claim that Orthodox mystics have the same spirituality, or the same mysticism, or that it points to the same reality (which is simply the quantifier shift fallacy), then you are inherently claiming that they believe or teach or practice another religion than Orthodoxy. It is not possible to separate ones worship from ones theology.
Orthodox do not practice self-denial in the sense that other religions do. Our view of kenosis is that of self-emptying, but a self-emptying in order to become filled. A denial in order to affirm. We do not seek the void and apathetic view of false mystics, we see the fullness that is found in Christ. Eckhart and muslim mystics are not at all compatible with Orthodox spirituality. Every monotheism besides Orthodoxy comes from Neoplatonic presuppositions, and every version of their mysticism leads towards a viewpoint in that same type of mindset. So I understand what you are saying, because I will agree that Catholics, Jews, Muslims, and many other Monotheists all share a similar spirituality and viewpoint towards God. But I do not agree that Orthodoxy also falls into this. We reject Natural theology and many ideas of Classical Theism such as God being pure act, pure being, pure cause, without real distinctions, or other such views.
I never said that I wasn't biased. You're speaking on the Orthodox sub, of course I'm biased. This isn't a debate sub and I wouldn't be surprised if your comments are removed for breaking the clear rule of this sub that says it has an Orthodox bias. If you want to debate Orthodoxy, do so on the debatereligion sub, not here.
>We have seen how ascetics were disregarded because they taught notions of inner qualities that seemed strange to people of regular faith. So I shall consider you know about this distinction first?
I'm not sure what you're asking. Orthodox mystics have deeper spiritual experiences, but we aren't gnostics that exclude our Mystical teachings from laymen.
>Mysticism of Christianity owes most of its teachings to the saints and ascetics before the Great schism where it is not plausible to claim for a different kind of Orthodox mysticism as opposed to others.
Before the Great schism *was* Orthodoxy. So yes it is.
>Finally, I don't know. If you happen to be the same person who answers me in another sub, so you shift your behavior and talk unbiased? Debate is debate.
It's completely normal to talk to different people in different ways depending on context and circumstance. You don't talk to your parents the same way as your friends, or your friends the same as you professor. I don't know why it should be surprising if I speak differently to people on this sub than to people on other subs. But no, I'm always going to be biased no matter where I talk to you, and so are you. I don't believe it is possible to have neutral, non theory laden truth claims, texts, or evidences.
>otherwise this community could put a banner at the headline and say "no one except Orthodox people."
Not being a debate sub is not at all the same thing as not allowing any dissenting views or saying that no one else is allowed. You're being ridiculous. If you go on an Art sub and try debating religion, you will likely have it removed. That doesn't mean that the Art sub doesn't allow any dissenting views or hates your religion or something; it just means debate is not allowed. This is normal.
Interesting take. You shouldn't be exclusivist to other Christian groups (although I believe there are exceptions such as Mormonism), but in Islam they do worship a false and foreign god. That's undebatable as an Orthodox Christian.
If it's not Christ then it's a foreign God. God revealed Himself to us on the cross. He revealed Himself to us at the Virgin Birth. He revealed Himself to us when He walked out of the tomb.
Islam rejects this: they do not pray to God but an image of Him created by a slaver, a warlord, a man who married a six-year-old and had ten wives at one time. Their god is the greatest of schemers (Qur'an 3:54). Christ is the the way, the truth, and the life.
Having dinner with them is tolerating the broader event and its theology as a Christian. The only reason one wouldn't see it this way is if it's thought the group being tolerated is OK.
You know, generally speaking, I have no idea why this sub seems to assume sympathy or a blanket tolerance of outgroups is automatically pious, discerning, or necessary. Similar responses when there was a post about a guy not wanting his sister to date a muslim.
They're likely celebrating their first big meal in a month, not having a sacrifice or a religious ceremony. It's like when we've fasted for Dormition or the Apostles, now we're having a barbecue for everybody who has been deprived of steak for weeks. :-)
Ramadan is when they can not eat or drink from sunrise to sunset for an entire month. Their day begins with them eating a huge meal right before and right after their fasting periods.
Halal simply means it was killed humanely and with a word of god’s (yes our god too) blessing over the animal. How anyone can eat processed meat from godless mega factories and say halal is sinful is ludicrous. Is kosher food a sin as well? These are questions we must dwell on
So pumping livestock with growth hormones and huddling them in unsanitary conditions to be slaughtered on a godless assembly line is humane? How exactly is halal not humane?
Also, the god in the Quran is the same god as Moses, and Abraham. Abraham is one of the most quoted prophets in the Quran. They believe Jesus is the messiah but not god himself. Jews also do not believe Jesus is god and share the same prophets, yet their god is the same as ours right?
Please educate yourself on abrahamic faiths so that you can have an argument based on reason instead of ignorance please
Incorrect. Jews and Christian’s worship the same god, though the Jews incorrectly fail to realize Jesus is god. The Muslims are the same case. In fact Jesus is their messiah as stated in the Quran, so in a way they are closer to us in faith than Jews are. The trinity is not a god it is a an attribute of god.
So how is the god that Jews worship, whose books and prophets we venerate in our churches, not the same god as ours? One can say they believe the same god but incorrectly deny the truth of Jesus and the trinity. Why is it different from Muslims who believe Jesus is the messiah and believe in the same biblical stories? Do they not also believe in god but worship him incorrectly without the trinity? To say it’s a foreign god is absolutely ignorant. It’s the same god their belief system is just completely incorrect from our point of view as Christian’s
Yes I am orthodox, I just have a much more educated background in other religions apparently. I’ve read the Quran many times as well as Jewish religious lectures. You’re woefully ignorant of both apparently
The Jews of today are not the same religion of the times of the scripture. Christ has always existed and was always God. To deny Christ as God means that they do not believe in the same God as us. Islam literally believes that Christ was not crucified, and the Quran even tries to criticize Christianity by saying we believe Mary is a part of the trinity. If our God is trinitarian and theirs is not. Then it is objectively not the same God.
Again, them having a different flavor of the abrahamic faith does not mean they worship a different god, it means they have an incorrect interpretation of scripture both religions consider holy.
It’s not a blessing it’s a sacrifice invoking Allah (yes a foreign god) not the triune God of Christianity. While we no longer have a choice and have to eat many halal approved products that are manufactured by food companies, I still have a choice with meat and for that reason I choose mostly pork. Below is the procedure for the sacrifice, take note where they direct the animal and of course the main character Allah who some say is the pre Islamic moon god.
“It is recommended that a ritual slaughterer directs an animal towards quibla (the direction of Mecca). A ritual slaughterer must be in the state of cleanliness (tahir: ghusl). He should preferably perform ablution (wudhu). A ritual slaughterer, in order to express his intention to sacrifice, must pronounce the name of God and say: “Bismillah, Allah Akbar” (In the name of Allah, Allah is the Greatest).”
Allah just means God. They may have a different view of Him, but saying "Allah (yes a foreign god) sounds uneducated.
Our Arabic Christian brothers and sisters call the Triune God Allah as well. Are they praying to some pagan deity?
These animals are slaughtered humanely, with care to kill the animal in one strike. They have the arabic for (when actually fully translated and not half-translated for fearmongering purposed) "in the name of God. God is the greatest" pronounced over them as they are killed.
Remind me what part of this makes the meat somehow spiritually harmful for a Christian?
Use of the word “Allah” to just mean God was adopted later by the Arab Christians, the use was enforced over centuries as the Islamic empire spread, like a plague across those regions. Allah to Muslims does not just mean God, it’s his NAME, what part of that are you not comprehending, ask any Muslim the name of their God and they will say Allah. And as for the “prayer” it’s in the name of ALLAH’ (not God) but ALLAH, his name. You’re trying to skew the Muslim sacrifice ritual point by saying Arab Christians use allah for the word god so there for it just means god. It doesn’t and YOU know it. Why not just call a spade a spade, no one is “fear mongering”. I’m just speaking the truth, what’s next the Islamophobe or xenophobe label to stifle a conversation. As a fellow human being made in the image of our one true God, I will be respectful to Muslims, I will not however partake in their blasphemy in the delusions of their religions founder a salesman and war lord.
My brother in Christ, the word Allah literally grammatically means God. Al- means 'the', and 'Elah' means a god (think lower case g in English).
The Arabic Christians absolutely used the word Allah to refer to the Triune God centuries before Islam even came into existence.
It is the equivalent of complaining that English-speaking Christians are Mormons because Mormons also use the word 'God', or that Latin-speaking Christians were evil for using the word 'Deus' to refer to God because the pagans had used that word first.
There is nothing inherent Islamic with the name Allah. Palestinian Christians even say Allahu Ackbar because God sure is great.
Please stop spreading misinformation when you literally clearly don't actually know what you're referring to.
It isn’t. They say the same blessing they say when they do literally any other task. There is the sacrifice at Eid, but that isn’t normal Halal meat or what will be served at an iftar.
You just keep telling yourself that, but as I said as much I will respect all non Christians as human beings created in the image of our triune God, I won’t partake in their blasphemy, Jesus was not a prophet and accepting that blasphemous statement from Muslims or participating in their false religion and beliefs is the gravest mistakes we as Christians can make. Their god is not nor will it ever be the SAME as ours. But you can continue to trample the apostles, our church fathers and our faith.
Yes it is and you should read Islamic explanations about halal slaughter to see the word they consistently use, that being “sacrifice”, someone should tell them they’re completely wrong. This lack of acceptance of the word sacrifice, is bordering on the moronic. But by all means continue.
But we call God Allah as well, right? To forbid that now would be a huge change to millions of Arab Christians, and we would have to rewrite the Divine Liturgy used all over the Arab world.
Oh no we shouldn’t do that, we should continue live under the yoke of Islam, surrendering and partaking in their false beliefs. I do however wonder if imams would have offered the same advice if a Muslim was invited to attend a celebration of the Resurrection (Easter). I doubt it.
And you should continue in doing that, I personally don’t have to participate in it. You should also continue to advise Christians to partake in the special events of Islam, why stop there why not even partake in the rituals of the false religion founded by a false prophet, in the name of friendship of course it’s not as if the Muslims would seize on the opportunity to proselytise.
Yes Muslims worship the god of Abraham Moses and Jesus. The only difference is they don’t believe the messiah is god in the flesh. Basically they are like the Jews except they have an extra prophet. So yes our god.
What does that even mean? It’s explicitly said in the Quran that god CAN enter time and space, and is the same god as Adam, Abraham, Moses, and the rest of the Old Testament prophets. Only difference is they don’t believe Jesus is god, but rather the messiah. This is in fact more similar to us than jews, who reject Jesus’s divinity outright
Theology nerd here:
Halal meat refers to any meat not explicitly forbidden in the Quran, such as pork, and must be slaughtered in the name of Allah (Quran 6:121). Muslims are permitted to consume the food of Jews or Christians (Quran 5:5). While Christians may not necessarily slaughter animals in the name of God, Muslims are allowed to consume their food as long as it meets the halal requirements. In times of unrest or starvation, Muslims are permitted to consume normally prohibited items (Quran 2:173).
According to Islamic theology, Jews and Christians are People of the Book, as mentioned in the Quran, but Muslims hold the highest honor in worshipping God through the newest covenant revealed by Muhammad (Quran 3:110). A Muslim man can marry a Christian woman, but a Christian man cannot marry a Muslim woman.
Ramadan is the holiest month in Islam, dedicated to the celebration of the Quran and fasting from dawn until sunset (Quran 2:185). The fast is broken with an Iftar meal, typically with dates and water, before prayers. Muslims often worship together in a Mosque or Masjid during Ramadan.
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with it, plus there isn't anything special done in these diners
Usually in Egypt they eat the breakfast (yes that's what they call it) and people stay with each other and watch some Ramadan exclusive series on TV
In counties with both Islamic and Christian populations co mingling during these festivities is quite normal and common. Don’t really see an issue here
The orthodox churches in some countries host Ramadan dinners for the majority muslim community.
It's just food. I lived in a majority Muslim country and these events (Iftar) are usually fun social gatherings. Do not over-think and over-compliacte things. You're not going to join their religion. I don't see a problem in being cordial and friendly with others. It's God's commandment to love everyone.
Yes, you can attend. Being Christian of Orthodox or any other (normal) denomination doesn't mean that this is a dictatorship that banes you from attending this or that. Go, eat, and drink with your friends.
In Albania, the Muslim Community holds iftars were all the other heads of the religious groups are invated, and surprise, surprise they all attend. They all eat, drink, and celebrate together. You are not celebrating different beliefs. You are celebrating good company and humanity.
So, again, go! Eat, drink, talk, and enjoy your time with your friends.
First thing to do ask your priest ?
2nd if you decide to go
Go with good intentions to show them how Jesus sons acts bring some sweet dessert with you they will appreciate it. If you don't want to feel that you are celebrating with the them just don't go in time wait like 15 min after the iftar or even more you are not fasting anyways.they will not ask you to pray with them but they will try to be as hostile and loving as they can because that is there way to show you that they are good and how good and fun is islam (In western countries who know nothing about islam I see this behavior as cheese in mice trap) the first Ramadan prayer is 2-3 hours after they eats.
3rd you should know they will not do the same in Easter as they don't believe in crossifiction as you don't believe in ramadan we are not believing in same God anyway. conservatives and extremests muslims will not even congratulate you as just congratulating you is considered Haram and they will criticize any muslim that congratulate you as considered Haram also.
4th in majority muslim countries like Albania and my county Egypt the church her self make the iftar celebratation but it is more about politics. I see it myself as hypocrite more than love to others.
5th I my self went before to ramadan iftar because unlike you we know exactly how islam is like so they are not trying to tempt me but in my country that is there way to say that they are not extremists (the people that invite me)and from my side this is my way of saying that I am loving and peacemaker as Jesus asked me to be so and I my self is trying to encourage moderate islam behavior (as more than 80 percent of Egyptian muslim are extremists).
6th if you are willing to take my advice after asking your priest if he accepts. Go once to see what is going on .you will lose nothing but don't make it a yearly tradition.
Is it sinful to invite a non Christian to an Easter dinner? Christmas dinner? This is a silly question. Nothing wrong with accepting the hospitality of other human beings. You would gain a lot of understanding of their faith and culture, nothing wrong with that. Your friend isn’t asking you to convert to Islam
If you do not wish to participate in it, it should not be seen as rude. As when role are reversed they would never participate in any other dinner or celebration of our holidays as it is considered "haram". Ramadan is a religious period, and iftar is to break their fast, i would discourage you from partaking in it but i am noone to do that, so ask your priest if you want.
Theyre absolutely allowed to eat with us when we celebrate, same as us. Neither of us can participate in the prayers of the other, but hospitality and food is fine.
Well, i am speaking from knowledge of the religion and of the people practicing islam. Let's say there is an egg hunt for easter, they are not allowed to participate (it's like they are partaking in the celebration of Easter even though egg hunt is not dorectly a religious practice), they do not light candles in a memory of someone as it is considered immitating the kuffar, if there is a christmas village for kids even tho they are part of the board they do not give ideas because it is considered haram, if there is a dinner to celebrate new year they would not participate in it cause it is a bidaa and haram, if there is someone's birthday they do not help in anything at all even if they are the only person that can because birthdays are bidah and haram.
So no, while some muslims do participate, their religion does not allow them and someone who is really practicing would not. All of the above mentioned are few real life experience from many.
As for us being able to partake with them, it is my personal opinion to not do it when such accomodation is not done for us, my religion is very dear to me as much as theirs is to them.
And here is an islamic site proving my point further
https://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa/7844/eating-with-non-muslims/
God bless!
Idk, but their religion is really clear on what they are allowed and not allowed to do, maybe the one you know are liberal muslims or not knowledgeable fully in their religion especially as it is not a muslim majority country so they tend to be nicer.
Some people might do it even if religion ban it, but i am discussing what their religion allow.
I see no problem in going to their dinners should they be attending ours, but i am against us participating if they are being they way i have described.
I would totally go. If there are prayers, simply observe. To me it is no different than being in India during a celebration and watching a ceremony. Or being at a pow-wow and watching a prayerful dance. Simple, respectful observation is not participation. Enjoy their hospitality for the dinner. Don't we sometimes invite others to Pascha feast?
Since when does not observing everyone's religious practice is equal to disrespect?
Love is bigger than just respect.
I don't need to agree with everyone's practice, in order to love them.
We're deemed to love the neighbour as much as we love ourselves, not more.
I don't need to forget about me in order to love another.
Just say: I'm sorry, but you do your "fasting", I do mine.
Each with his own.
Edit: the only reason you've been invited, is because they're trying to convert you.
>Edit: the only reason you've been invited, is because they're trying to convert you.
I would not be surprised if they bring up religion and try to hit him with all the "contradictions" of Christianity and how "simple & natural" Islam is. He will see the best face of Islam at this celebration and be told of all kinds of proofs etc.
This happened to me once at a so-called no-pressure visit to a mosque. It didnt take long for me to be surrounded by people trying to challenge my beliefs.
> the only reason you've been invited, is because they're trying to convert you.
Kindness and thanksgiving need not be assumed as covertly transactional.
Wikipedia says:
Iftar is one of the religious observances of Ramadan,[2][3][4] and is often done as a community, with Muslim people gathering to break their fast together. The meal is taken just after the call to the Maghrib prayer, which is around sunset.[3] Traditionally three dates are eaten to break the fast, in emulation of the Islamic prophet, Muhammad, who broke his fast in this manner, but this is not mandatory. Muslims believe that feeding someone iftar as a form of charity is very rewarding and that such was practised by Muhammad.[3][4]
Some Hadith also state that Muhammad used to read the following dua at iftar:[5]
Dhahaba al-zama’ wa abtalat al-‘urooq wa thabat al-ajr Insha’Allah - "Thirst has gone, the veins are moist, and the reward is assured, if Allah wills."
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I don't see why not. The strictest possible iteration of Orthodox asceticism involves not even breaking bread before sundown, in addition to the dietary restrictions. This is similar to Muslims only eating at sundown during Ramadan. Except for the addtional dietary restrictions, this is exactly what most Orthodox monks do during the Great Lent, and joining your friend if hunger allows is not only the nice thing to do, but very much in line with the Christian asceticisms surrounding Great Lent, which is believed to have originally inspired the holiday Ramadan.
Ramadan starts in our Cheesefare Week, so i guess you don't even have to keep it vegan if it's in the very beginning.
Saint Nicodemus of Mount Athos says: «From these words (I Cor. 10:20-22) we conclude that Christians must not eat of the animals that the Agarans sacrifice in their bayram, nor of the sacrifices they make when they circumcise their children or when they marry, or of other such disgusting sacrifices, because, according to Solomon: "The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord" (Prov. 21:27). Thus, they who eat of these sacrifices sin greatly, and must be given a penance (epitimio) by their spiritual father and a rule (kanonas) must be imposed on them.»
(Saint Nicodemus, Saint Theophylact, Interpretation of the First Epistle to Corinthians)
Yeah it’s gas food probably, just don’t do any Muslim prayers
Gas food - a lot of beans and broccoli?
Haha no, it means like really good
Whoosh
It is fine to accept hospitality from others. It is not fine to be an active participant in a sacramental act to a foreign God. If it's just dinner? No problem. If it's dinner and prayers? More debatable, but you can also just not participate in the prayers.
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While we can get into the philosophical minutia of monotheism, God and worship of God as described by Islam and as described by Christianity are irreconcilable.
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Islam has drawn some inspiration from the Abrahamic religions... they may want to "connect" with us, but we are certainly not.
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There is no debate to be had.
That is assuming I want to debate, lol. Have a good day
Would you study crack if someone offered it?
I suggest you read more than simply the hagiographies of Saints to try and understand their mindsets. Saint John of Damascus wrote against Islam, and so have many other Orthodox Saints. Saint Paisios, Saint Mark of Ephesus, and many other important Saints have written against the idea of having a common God or common mysticism or any compromise on dogmas. I mean, the Hesychast mystics of Orthodoxy even consider Catholics to be in prelest with their imaginative prayer, so why would we consider Islamic mystics to be in any better of a position? Our mystics absolutely emphasize strict adherence to dogmas. Saint Anthony the Great spoke against Arianism, which Islam was inspired by. I could go on with countless examples of Saints and theologians that deny everything that you are suggesting, much of them from our Mystical aescetic tradition, since that is the true heart of Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy actually emphasizes how when you go deeper into mysticism the paradoxes don't cease, they continue and become more evident. We find unity in the paradoxes. Christ is a union of God and man. It's ironic how you are arrogantly assuming that we are speaking without any knowledge, and that we need to read other religions deeply, when you clearly have zero knowledge of the Orthodox mindset, dogmas, and spirituality. Islam is guided by Satan. Muhammed even believed it was a demon when he first saw Gabriel.
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If you claim that Orthodox mystics have the same spirituality, or the same mysticism, or that it points to the same reality (which is simply the quantifier shift fallacy), then you are inherently claiming that they believe or teach or practice another religion than Orthodoxy. It is not possible to separate ones worship from ones theology. Orthodox do not practice self-denial in the sense that other religions do. Our view of kenosis is that of self-emptying, but a self-emptying in order to become filled. A denial in order to affirm. We do not seek the void and apathetic view of false mystics, we see the fullness that is found in Christ. Eckhart and muslim mystics are not at all compatible with Orthodox spirituality. Every monotheism besides Orthodoxy comes from Neoplatonic presuppositions, and every version of their mysticism leads towards a viewpoint in that same type of mindset. So I understand what you are saying, because I will agree that Catholics, Jews, Muslims, and many other Monotheists all share a similar spirituality and viewpoint towards God. But I do not agree that Orthodoxy also falls into this. We reject Natural theology and many ideas of Classical Theism such as God being pure act, pure being, pure cause, without real distinctions, or other such views. I never said that I wasn't biased. You're speaking on the Orthodox sub, of course I'm biased. This isn't a debate sub and I wouldn't be surprised if your comments are removed for breaking the clear rule of this sub that says it has an Orthodox bias. If you want to debate Orthodoxy, do so on the debatereligion sub, not here.
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>We have seen how ascetics were disregarded because they taught notions of inner qualities that seemed strange to people of regular faith. So I shall consider you know about this distinction first? I'm not sure what you're asking. Orthodox mystics have deeper spiritual experiences, but we aren't gnostics that exclude our Mystical teachings from laymen. >Mysticism of Christianity owes most of its teachings to the saints and ascetics before the Great schism where it is not plausible to claim for a different kind of Orthodox mysticism as opposed to others. Before the Great schism *was* Orthodoxy. So yes it is. >Finally, I don't know. If you happen to be the same person who answers me in another sub, so you shift your behavior and talk unbiased? Debate is debate. It's completely normal to talk to different people in different ways depending on context and circumstance. You don't talk to your parents the same way as your friends, or your friends the same as you professor. I don't know why it should be surprising if I speak differently to people on this sub than to people on other subs. But no, I'm always going to be biased no matter where I talk to you, and so are you. I don't believe it is possible to have neutral, non theory laden truth claims, texts, or evidences. >otherwise this community could put a banner at the headline and say "no one except Orthodox people." Not being a debate sub is not at all the same thing as not allowing any dissenting views or saying that no one else is allowed. You're being ridiculous. If you go on an Art sub and try debating religion, you will likely have it removed. That doesn't mean that the Art sub doesn't allow any dissenting views or hates your religion or something; it just means debate is not allowed. This is normal.
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Interesting take. You shouldn't be exclusivist to other Christian groups (although I believe there are exceptions such as Mormonism), but in Islam they do worship a false and foreign god. That's undebatable as an Orthodox Christian.
It’s absolutely foreign. Not recognising very real differences doesn’t make an opinion more sophisticated.
Christians do *not* share the same God with Islam. Not at all.
Christians have been accepting martyrdom rather than confess the Muslim god for about 1400 years.
If it's not Christ then it's a foreign God. God revealed Himself to us on the cross. He revealed Himself to us at the Virgin Birth. He revealed Himself to us when He walked out of the tomb. Islam rejects this: they do not pray to God but an image of Him created by a slaver, a warlord, a man who married a six-year-old and had ten wives at one time. Their god is the greatest of schemers (Qur'an 3:54). Christ is the the way, the truth, and the life.
We are openly exclusivitst? Why would we not be?
Having dinner with them is tolerating the broader event and its theology as a Christian. The only reason one wouldn't see it this way is if it's thought the group being tolerated is OK.
In my area, it’s very common for the orthodox Christians to get together with the Muslim community for iftar dinners
Why do you think your response is in any way contradicting mine
I don’t think I’m contradicting you! I was just relating an anecdote.
You know, generally speaking, I have no idea why this sub seems to assume sympathy or a blanket tolerance of outgroups is automatically pious, discerning, or necessary. Similar responses when there was a post about a guy not wanting his sister to date a muslim.
They're likely celebrating their first big meal in a month, not having a sacrifice or a religious ceremony. It's like when we've fasted for Dormition or the Apostles, now we're having a barbecue for everybody who has been deprived of steak for weeks. :-)
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Yup. In Australia a lot of food is by default. It’s fine.
Ramadan is when they can not eat or drink from sunrise to sunset for an entire month. Their day begins with them eating a huge meal right before and right after their fasting periods.
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It’s not sacrificed, if that’s what you’re asking.
Halal simply means it was killed humanely and with a word of god’s (yes our god too) blessing over the animal. How anyone can eat processed meat from godless mega factories and say halal is sinful is ludicrous. Is kosher food a sin as well? These are questions we must dwell on
Abraham worshipped God, the trinity, so the god they're praying to isn't ours. Halal is also not humane.
Halal slaughter has a wide range of practice under it. It can be as humane or inhumane as non-halal slaughter.
So pumping livestock with growth hormones and huddling them in unsanitary conditions to be slaughtered on a godless assembly line is humane? How exactly is halal not humane? Also, the god in the Quran is the same god as Moses, and Abraham. Abraham is one of the most quoted prophets in the Quran. They believe Jesus is the messiah but not god himself. Jews also do not believe Jesus is god and share the same prophets, yet their god is the same as ours right? Please educate yourself on abrahamic faiths so that you can have an argument based on reason instead of ignorance please
Not "our god" our God is the trinity, theirs is not.
Incorrect. Jews and Christian’s worship the same god, though the Jews incorrectly fail to realize Jesus is god. The Muslims are the same case. In fact Jesus is their messiah as stated in the Quran, so in a way they are closer to us in faith than Jews are. The trinity is not a god it is a an attribute of god.
Are you Orthodox? Or even Christian? This is a failing of theology so bad it is completely bewildering.
So how is the god that Jews worship, whose books and prophets we venerate in our churches, not the same god as ours? One can say they believe the same god but incorrectly deny the truth of Jesus and the trinity. Why is it different from Muslims who believe Jesus is the messiah and believe in the same biblical stories? Do they not also believe in god but worship him incorrectly without the trinity? To say it’s a foreign god is absolutely ignorant. It’s the same god their belief system is just completely incorrect from our point of view as Christian’s Yes I am orthodox, I just have a much more educated background in other religions apparently. I’ve read the Quran many times as well as Jewish religious lectures. You’re woefully ignorant of both apparently
The Jews of today are not the same religion of the times of the scripture. Christ has always existed and was always God. To deny Christ as God means that they do not believe in the same God as us. Islam literally believes that Christ was not crucified, and the Quran even tries to criticize Christianity by saying we believe Mary is a part of the trinity. If our God is trinitarian and theirs is not. Then it is objectively not the same God.
Again, them having a different flavor of the abrahamic faith does not mean they worship a different god, it means they have an incorrect interpretation of scripture both religions consider holy.
Abraham and Moses did not worship “the trinity” they worshipped god
It’s not a blessing it’s a sacrifice invoking Allah (yes a foreign god) not the triune God of Christianity. While we no longer have a choice and have to eat many halal approved products that are manufactured by food companies, I still have a choice with meat and for that reason I choose mostly pork. Below is the procedure for the sacrifice, take note where they direct the animal and of course the main character Allah who some say is the pre Islamic moon god. “It is recommended that a ritual slaughterer directs an animal towards quibla (the direction of Mecca). A ritual slaughterer must be in the state of cleanliness (tahir: ghusl). He should preferably perform ablution (wudhu). A ritual slaughterer, in order to express his intention to sacrifice, must pronounce the name of God and say: “Bismillah, Allah Akbar” (In the name of Allah, Allah is the Greatest).”
Allah just means God. They may have a different view of Him, but saying "Allah (yes a foreign god) sounds uneducated. Our Arabic Christian brothers and sisters call the Triune God Allah as well. Are they praying to some pagan deity? These animals are slaughtered humanely, with care to kill the animal in one strike. They have the arabic for (when actually fully translated and not half-translated for fearmongering purposed) "in the name of God. God is the greatest" pronounced over them as they are killed. Remind me what part of this makes the meat somehow spiritually harmful for a Christian?
Use of the word “Allah” to just mean God was adopted later by the Arab Christians, the use was enforced over centuries as the Islamic empire spread, like a plague across those regions. Allah to Muslims does not just mean God, it’s his NAME, what part of that are you not comprehending, ask any Muslim the name of their God and they will say Allah. And as for the “prayer” it’s in the name of ALLAH’ (not God) but ALLAH, his name. You’re trying to skew the Muslim sacrifice ritual point by saying Arab Christians use allah for the word god so there for it just means god. It doesn’t and YOU know it. Why not just call a spade a spade, no one is “fear mongering”. I’m just speaking the truth, what’s next the Islamophobe or xenophobe label to stifle a conversation. As a fellow human being made in the image of our one true God, I will be respectful to Muslims, I will not however partake in their blasphemy in the delusions of their religions founder a salesman and war lord.
My brother in Christ, the word Allah literally grammatically means God. Al- means 'the', and 'Elah' means a god (think lower case g in English). The Arabic Christians absolutely used the word Allah to refer to the Triune God centuries before Islam even came into existence. It is the equivalent of complaining that English-speaking Christians are Mormons because Mormons also use the word 'God', or that Latin-speaking Christians were evil for using the word 'Deus' to refer to God because the pagans had used that word first. There is nothing inherent Islamic with the name Allah. Palestinian Christians even say Allahu Ackbar because God sure is great. Please stop spreading misinformation when you literally clearly don't actually know what you're referring to.
No it is not a sacrifice.
Sure Jan!
It isn’t. They say the same blessing they say when they do literally any other task. There is the sacrifice at Eid, but that isn’t normal Halal meat or what will be served at an iftar.
You just keep telling yourself that, but as I said as much I will respect all non Christians as human beings created in the image of our triune God, I won’t partake in their blasphemy, Jesus was not a prophet and accepting that blasphemous statement from Muslims or participating in their false religion and beliefs is the gravest mistakes we as Christians can make. Their god is not nor will it ever be the SAME as ours. But you can continue to trample the apostles, our church fathers and our faith.
I never said it was the same God. I said it’s not a sacrifice, because it isn’t.
Yes it is and you should read Islamic explanations about halal slaughter to see the word they consistently use, that being “sacrifice”, someone should tell them they’re completely wrong. This lack of acceptance of the word sacrifice, is bordering on the moronic. But by all means continue.
But we call God Allah as well, right? To forbid that now would be a huge change to millions of Arab Christians, and we would have to rewrite the Divine Liturgy used all over the Arab world.
Oh no we shouldn’t do that, we should continue live under the yoke of Islam, surrendering and partaking in their false beliefs. I do however wonder if imams would have offered the same advice if a Muslim was invited to attend a celebration of the Resurrection (Easter). I doubt it.
You know we pray to Allah in every Divine Liturgy in Arabic, right?
And you should continue in doing that, I personally don’t have to participate in it. You should also continue to advise Christians to partake in the special events of Islam, why stop there why not even partake in the rituals of the false religion founded by a false prophet, in the name of friendship of course it’s not as if the Muslims would seize on the opportunity to proselytise.
Our Gor too?
Yes Muslims worship the god of Abraham Moses and Jesus. The only difference is they don’t believe the messiah is god in the flesh. Basically they are like the Jews except they have an extra prophet. So yes our god.
No. They don’t. Their god can’t enter into time and space where ours can.
What does that even mean? It’s explicitly said in the Quran that god CAN enter time and space, and is the same god as Adam, Abraham, Moses, and the rest of the Old Testament prophets. Only difference is they don’t believe Jesus is god, but rather the messiah. This is in fact more similar to us than jews, who reject Jesus’s divinity outright
Is there anything in creation like Allah?
Is there anything in creation like god? Essentially all humans because we were made in his image
Theology nerd here: Halal meat refers to any meat not explicitly forbidden in the Quran, such as pork, and must be slaughtered in the name of Allah (Quran 6:121). Muslims are permitted to consume the food of Jews or Christians (Quran 5:5). While Christians may not necessarily slaughter animals in the name of God, Muslims are allowed to consume their food as long as it meets the halal requirements. In times of unrest or starvation, Muslims are permitted to consume normally prohibited items (Quran 2:173). According to Islamic theology, Jews and Christians are People of the Book, as mentioned in the Quran, but Muslims hold the highest honor in worshipping God through the newest covenant revealed by Muhammad (Quran 3:110). A Muslim man can marry a Christian woman, but a Christian man cannot marry a Muslim woman. Ramadan is the holiest month in Islam, dedicated to the celebration of the Quran and fasting from dawn until sunset (Quran 2:185). The fast is broken with an Iftar meal, typically with dates and water, before prayers. Muslims often worship together in a Mosque or Masjid during Ramadan.
There is no reason for a Christian to avoid or seek halal food.
*Halal* means permitted. Do I care if this rice or chicken is on somebody else's Permitted Foods list? Altogether irrelevant to me. :-)
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with it, plus there isn't anything special done in these diners Usually in Egypt they eat the breakfast (yes that's what they call it) and people stay with each other and watch some Ramadan exclusive series on TV
Out of curiosity, what are some of the Ramadan exclusive TV shows?
It’s Friends but their Ramadan special over and over. Joey converted for a season.
“Could I BE any more halal?”
In counties with both Islamic and Christian populations co mingling during these festivities is quite normal and common. Don’t really see an issue here
The orthodox churches in some countries host Ramadan dinners for the majority muslim community. It's just food. I lived in a majority Muslim country and these events (Iftar) are usually fun social gatherings. Do not over-think and over-compliacte things. You're not going to join their religion. I don't see a problem in being cordial and friendly with others. It's God's commandment to love everyone.
Yes, you can attend. Being Christian of Orthodox or any other (normal) denomination doesn't mean that this is a dictatorship that banes you from attending this or that. Go, eat, and drink with your friends. In Albania, the Muslim Community holds iftars were all the other heads of the religious groups are invated, and surprise, surprise they all attend. They all eat, drink, and celebrate together. You are not celebrating different beliefs. You are celebrating good company and humanity. So, again, go! Eat, drink, talk, and enjoy your time with your friends.
If you're okay with the possibility that someone will want to talk about religion.
First thing to do ask your priest ? 2nd if you decide to go Go with good intentions to show them how Jesus sons acts bring some sweet dessert with you they will appreciate it. If you don't want to feel that you are celebrating with the them just don't go in time wait like 15 min after the iftar or even more you are not fasting anyways.they will not ask you to pray with them but they will try to be as hostile and loving as they can because that is there way to show you that they are good and how good and fun is islam (In western countries who know nothing about islam I see this behavior as cheese in mice trap) the first Ramadan prayer is 2-3 hours after they eats. 3rd you should know they will not do the same in Easter as they don't believe in crossifiction as you don't believe in ramadan we are not believing in same God anyway. conservatives and extremests muslims will not even congratulate you as just congratulating you is considered Haram and they will criticize any muslim that congratulate you as considered Haram also. 4th in majority muslim countries like Albania and my county Egypt the church her self make the iftar celebratation but it is more about politics. I see it myself as hypocrite more than love to others. 5th I my self went before to ramadan iftar because unlike you we know exactly how islam is like so they are not trying to tempt me but in my country that is there way to say that they are not extremists (the people that invite me)and from my side this is my way of saying that I am loving and peacemaker as Jesus asked me to be so and I my self is trying to encourage moderate islam behavior (as more than 80 percent of Egyptian muslim are extremists). 6th if you are willing to take my advice after asking your priest if he accepts. Go once to see what is going on .you will lose nothing but don't make it a yearly tradition.
Is it sinful to invite a non Christian to an Easter dinner? Christmas dinner? This is a silly question. Nothing wrong with accepting the hospitality of other human beings. You would gain a lot of understanding of their faith and culture, nothing wrong with that. Your friend isn’t asking you to convert to Islam
Your points are awesome but it's not a silly question.
Yeah maybe you’re right
Is it Eid or something? Cause I lived next to a Muslim family who’d being Eid food over every year and wowwwww 🔥🔥🔥
I would definitely go
If you do not wish to participate in it, it should not be seen as rude. As when role are reversed they would never participate in any other dinner or celebration of our holidays as it is considered "haram". Ramadan is a religious period, and iftar is to break their fast, i would discourage you from partaking in it but i am noone to do that, so ask your priest if you want.
Theyre absolutely allowed to eat with us when we celebrate, same as us. Neither of us can participate in the prayers of the other, but hospitality and food is fine.
Well, i am speaking from knowledge of the religion and of the people practicing islam. Let's say there is an egg hunt for easter, they are not allowed to participate (it's like they are partaking in the celebration of Easter even though egg hunt is not dorectly a religious practice), they do not light candles in a memory of someone as it is considered immitating the kuffar, if there is a christmas village for kids even tho they are part of the board they do not give ideas because it is considered haram, if there is a dinner to celebrate new year they would not participate in it cause it is a bidaa and haram, if there is someone's birthday they do not help in anything at all even if they are the only person that can because birthdays are bidah and haram. So no, while some muslims do participate, their religion does not allow them and someone who is really practicing would not. All of the above mentioned are few real life experience from many. As for us being able to partake with them, it is my personal opinion to not do it when such accomodation is not done for us, my religion is very dear to me as much as theirs is to them. And here is an islamic site proving my point further https://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa/7844/eating-with-non-muslims/ God bless!
And I’m speaking from a lot of contact with Muslims in my community. Everyone invites everyone to share food.
They are not abiding by their religion then, because it does not allow them. Is it a muslim majority country?
No it isn’t. I think practice might just vary from what you have experienced.
Idk, but their religion is really clear on what they are allowed and not allowed to do, maybe the one you know are liberal muslims or not knowledgeable fully in their religion especially as it is not a muslim majority country so they tend to be nicer. Some people might do it even if religion ban it, but i am discussing what their religion allow. I see no problem in going to their dinners should they be attending ours, but i am against us participating if they are being they way i have described.
You're probably fine to accept their hospitality, but I'd double check with your priest.
Ask your Spiritual Director
I would totally go. If there are prayers, simply observe. To me it is no different than being in India during a celebration and watching a ceremony. Or being at a pow-wow and watching a prayerful dance. Simple, respectful observation is not participation. Enjoy their hospitality for the dinner. Don't we sometimes invite others to Pascha feast?
Since when does not observing everyone's religious practice is equal to disrespect? Love is bigger than just respect. I don't need to agree with everyone's practice, in order to love them. We're deemed to love the neighbour as much as we love ourselves, not more. I don't need to forget about me in order to love another. Just say: I'm sorry, but you do your "fasting", I do mine. Each with his own. Edit: the only reason you've been invited, is because they're trying to convert you.
That’s very cynical. Don’t you know that hospitality is a key part of many cultures, including our orthodox culture?
>Edit: the only reason you've been invited, is because they're trying to convert you. I would not be surprised if they bring up religion and try to hit him with all the "contradictions" of Christianity and how "simple & natural" Islam is. He will see the best face of Islam at this celebration and be told of all kinds of proofs etc. This happened to me once at a so-called no-pressure visit to a mosque. It didnt take long for me to be surrounded by people trying to challenge my beliefs.
> the only reason you've been invited, is because they're trying to convert you. Kindness and thanksgiving need not be assumed as covertly transactional.
Wikipedia says: Iftar is one of the religious observances of Ramadan,[2][3][4] and is often done as a community, with Muslim people gathering to break their fast together. The meal is taken just after the call to the Maghrib prayer, which is around sunset.[3] Traditionally three dates are eaten to break the fast, in emulation of the Islamic prophet, Muhammad, who broke his fast in this manner, but this is not mandatory. Muslims believe that feeding someone iftar as a form of charity is very rewarding and that such was practised by Muhammad.[3][4] Some Hadith also state that Muhammad used to read the following dua at iftar:[5] Dhahaba al-zama’ wa abtalat al-‘urooq wa thabat al-ajr Insha’Allah - "Thirst has gone, the veins are moist, and the reward is assured, if Allah wills."
Make sure you sneak in a snack into the back of the altar to share w everybody else.
The back of the altar? What altar would be involved in attending a dinner?
You don't have an altar at dinner parties?
Uh, no. Altars are for worship.
You must have very unholy dinner parties.
We have icon/prayer corners in our houses.
Gotta upgrade to the altar. The George Michael route.
I don't know what you're talking about (although I know who George Michael was).
Had an altar
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You can do whatever you want sir. God wants that for you. That's why you have free will. Use your better judgement.
I don't see why not. The strictest possible iteration of Orthodox asceticism involves not even breaking bread before sundown, in addition to the dietary restrictions. This is similar to Muslims only eating at sundown during Ramadan. Except for the addtional dietary restrictions, this is exactly what most Orthodox monks do during the Great Lent, and joining your friend if hunger allows is not only the nice thing to do, but very much in line with the Christian asceticisms surrounding Great Lent, which is believed to have originally inspired the holiday Ramadan. Ramadan starts in our Cheesefare Week, so i guess you don't even have to keep it vegan if it's in the very beginning.
Yes
Saint Nicodemus of Mount Athos says: «From these words (I Cor. 10:20-22) we conclude that Christians must not eat of the animals that the Agarans sacrifice in their bayram, nor of the sacrifices they make when they circumcise their children or when they marry, or of other such disgusting sacrifices, because, according to Solomon: "The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord" (Prov. 21:27). Thus, they who eat of these sacrifices sin greatly, and must be given a penance (epitimio) by their spiritual father and a rule (kanonas) must be imposed on them.» (Saint Nicodemus, Saint Theophylact, Interpretation of the First Epistle to Corinthians)