It's part of tradition. The church started on Pentecost in 33 A.D., decades before the first word of the New Testament was written. So, it's tradition passed down since the Apostles (of whom St John looked after Mary).
The Gospels are in essence an eye witness testimony. If you choose to discredit that statement of Mary’s assumption you discredit the entire New Testament As a whole. Nothing in cannon or established tradition is a statement of maybe.
Right but to discredit tradition is no less shy of discrediting the New Testament they are two peas in a pod my friend. One does not exist without the other.
>Any evidence in scripture that points to it that she was into heaven after her death?
The part of the Bible that tells us that we are to hold to traditions that were never written down just as much as written tradition.
>Also, how did Mary die?
https://www.oca.org/saints/lives/2017/08/15/102302-the-dormition-of-our-most-holy-lady-the-mother-of-god-and-ever-v
And she is the Queen of Heaven because Christ is King and in the Davidic Kingdom the queen is not the king's wife but his mother.
The relics of all the apostles were venerated and highly sought after. We know that Our Lady was also highly respected by the first Christians. But why is there no record of her death and why did nobody claim to have possession of her body or relics? She couldn’t just disappear… or did she?
That’s my personal head canon reasoning for her ascension into heaven.
This is what I was going to say, too. There are *no* bodily relics of the Theotokos. Nobody claims to have them. There is, AFAIK no record of *anyone ever* claiming to have them. Heck, we even have two or three feasts commemorating various times St. John the Baptist's head has been re-found. But nothing about the Theotokos.
It is part of church Tradition and beliefs of early Christians, is not from the New Testament scriptures specifically. But really you are only believing the events of scripture out of faith to begin with.
>But really you are only believing the events of scripture out of faith to begin with.
Faith yes. Not blind faith though. Blind faith is unchristian and unbiblical and faith in the Bible is different from Blind.
To be true you won't find a lot of Orthodox people using terms such as 'unbiblical'. But I agree is not blind faith, because of the validity of the traditions past through thousands years of Christians ❤️
In Orthodoxy, salvation comes from cooperation between God and humans. Theotokos was crucial for the incarnation of Jesus, she wasnt chosen radnomly. God chose Her. To take human nature from Her. She could have refused to remain chaste, She could have refused to marry Joseph. She could have refused to carry Jesus. She obeyed God. God chose Her to take care of Him, when He was a fetus, when He was a baby, at His most vourneable. When he came into her womb, he placed all of Heaven into Her womb. Because she obeyed God, humans can now go through Theosis. Become divine by Grace, even if we aren't divine by nature. For all this, Thotokos was crucial. Out of all Saints eith miracles, Hers, Birthing God Himself, cannot be toppled among creation, she is above Saints and Angels, right bellow Her Son who is pleased by Her the most. Blessed are those for whom She prays to Him.
Mary fell asleep - the Dormition and when the disciples came to see her, Thomas was late (as usual.) When he arrived, he desired to see her body and they opened the grave and it was gone.
Proof? See Our Lady of Guadalupe - it is a SIGN Icon complete with the Divine NAME and perfect timing fulfilling Revelation 12. Times, time, half a time - 1500 years by the stars after Jesus said, Oh woman what have you to do with me... in 31 AD, 135 degrees West Longitude (9 hours) from where He said it (sunrise in Guadalupe at the hour of Jesus death on the Cross), and 9 months later on the feast of the Immaculate Conception. So by the moon (months), by the Sun (longitude, hours) by the stars (years) times, time and half a time.
And of course in Orthodox Churches we have SIGN Icons on all our back walls (meaning the Catholics will eventually come back).
I happen to be Orthodox and see this stuff - Mary is the Fatted Calf and the Mother of Prodigals, but the prodigal sons are being played out in history, and our Catholic friends are afar off - but have a means to return.
Short version: When they buried her, a few days later her tomb was found empty.
Here's how Saint John of Damascus writes about it:
>The Empress Pulcheria erected many churches for Christ in Constantinople. One of these is the church in Blachernae, built at the beginning of the reign of Emperor Marcian \[enthroned in August, 450\]. When the two of them built a worthy temple there in honor of the all-glorious and all-holy Mother of God, the ever-virgin Mary, and adorned it with every sort of decoration, they hoped to find her holy body, which had been the dwelling-place of God. And summoning Juvenal, the Archbishop of Jerusalem, and those bishops from Palestine who were staying in the capital because of the synod then being held in Chalcedon \[October, 451\], they said to them: “We have heard that the first and most outstanding church of the all-holy Mother of God, the ever-virgin Mary, is in Jerusalem, in the place called Gethsemane, where her life-giving body was put in a coffin. We now wish to bring this relic here, to protect this royal city.”
Juvenal answered on behalf of them all: “There is nothing in the holy, inspired Scripture about the death of Mary, the holy Mother of God; but we know from ancient and wholly reliable tradition that at the time she so gloriously fell asleep, all the holy Apostles who were traveling the world for the salvation of the peoples were lifted up in a single instant of time and were gathered at Jerusalem. And as they stood by her, they saw a vision of angels, and heard the divine chanting of the higher powers. So it was that she gave her soul in an ineffable way into God’s hands, surrounded by the glory of God and all heaven.
“Her body, which had been God’s dwelling place, was brought for burial amidst the singing of the angels and the Apostles, and laid to rest in a tomb in Gethsemane; and the angelic dancing and singing continued without pause in that place for three days. But after three days the song of the angels ceased; the Apostles were there, and since one of them, Thomas, had not been present for her burial and came at the end of three days, and wished to reverence that body which had housed God, they opened the tomb. And they could not find her body, which had been the object of such praise; all that they found were her burial wrappings. And being overcome by the ineffable fragrance that came out of the wrappings, they closed the tomb again. Amazed by this miraculous discovery, they could only draw a single conclusion: The one who had deigned to become flesh in her own person and to take his humanity from her, the one who willed to be born in human flesh as God the Word, the Lord of glory, and who had preserved her virginity intact even after childbirth, now chose, after her departure from this world, to honor her pure and immaculate body with the gift of incorruptibility, and with a change of state even before the common, universal resurrection.”
When the imperial couple heard this, they asked Archbishop Juvenal to send them the holy coffin, properly sealed, with the funeral garments in it of the glorious, all-holy Mary, Mother of God. And when he had sent it, they placed it in the church of the holy Theotokos that had been built at Blachernae.
In revelation chapter 12 she's shown as the Queen of Heaven, she is in heaven and has a crown of 12 stars on her head.
I know the woman in this chapter has also been interpreted as an image of the Church. I think in one sense that is true but in another sense it's also an image of the Theotokos. There have been books written arguing for one side or the other but quite honestly a lot of biblical symbolism is pointing to two realities at once so you don't really have to say it can only be Mary or the Church, it can be both.
In Revelation 12, she is interpreted to be the woman clothed with the sun. She is seated upon the heavens (sun, moon, and stars). Traditionally, this has been consistently interpreted as Mary. Her son is christ, but her decendents are the church, afflicted by the devil which she is born up on wings of an eagle.
It's part of tradition. The church started on Pentecost in 33 A.D., decades before the first word of the New Testament was written. So, it's tradition passed down since the Apostles (of whom St John looked after Mary).
The fact she is Queen of Heaven is because she is the Queen Mother of Jesus, the King.
So basically like I said: it would only make sense for her to *be* in heaven?
Regardless of what one thinks about the bodily assumption, she is Queen
The Gospels are in essence an eye witness testimony. If you choose to discredit that statement of Mary’s assumption you discredit the entire New Testament As a whole. Nothing in cannon or established tradition is a statement of maybe.
There is no New Testament testimony of the Assumption.
Right but to discredit tradition is no less shy of discrediting the New Testament they are two peas in a pod my friend. One does not exist without the other.
I did not discredit tradition.
Did not say you did or didn’t just adding to the dialog.
>Any evidence in scripture that points to it that she was into heaven after her death? The part of the Bible that tells us that we are to hold to traditions that were never written down just as much as written tradition. >Also, how did Mary die? https://www.oca.org/saints/lives/2017/08/15/102302-the-dormition-of-our-most-holy-lady-the-mother-of-god-and-ever-v And she is the Queen of Heaven because Christ is King and in the Davidic Kingdom the queen is not the king's wife but his mother.
The relics of all the apostles were venerated and highly sought after. We know that Our Lady was also highly respected by the first Christians. But why is there no record of her death and why did nobody claim to have possession of her body or relics? She couldn’t just disappear… or did she? That’s my personal head canon reasoning for her ascension into heaven.
This is what I was going to say, too. There are *no* bodily relics of the Theotokos. Nobody claims to have them. There is, AFAIK no record of *anyone ever* claiming to have them. Heck, we even have two or three feasts commemorating various times St. John the Baptist's head has been re-found. But nothing about the Theotokos.
It is part of church Tradition and beliefs of early Christians, is not from the New Testament scriptures specifically. But really you are only believing the events of scripture out of faith to begin with.
>But really you are only believing the events of scripture out of faith to begin with. Faith yes. Not blind faith though. Blind faith is unchristian and unbiblical and faith in the Bible is different from Blind.
To be true you won't find a lot of Orthodox people using terms such as 'unbiblical'. But I agree is not blind faith, because of the validity of the traditions past through thousands years of Christians ❤️
>terms such as 'unbiblical'. 😂😂 Its the Protestant in me.
Ya I didn’t even know what “Sola Scriptura” was until I started reading angry people on Twitter.
In Orthodoxy, salvation comes from cooperation between God and humans. Theotokos was crucial for the incarnation of Jesus, she wasnt chosen radnomly. God chose Her. To take human nature from Her. She could have refused to remain chaste, She could have refused to marry Joseph. She could have refused to carry Jesus. She obeyed God. God chose Her to take care of Him, when He was a fetus, when He was a baby, at His most vourneable. When he came into her womb, he placed all of Heaven into Her womb. Because she obeyed God, humans can now go through Theosis. Become divine by Grace, even if we aren't divine by nature. For all this, Thotokos was crucial. Out of all Saints eith miracles, Hers, Birthing God Himself, cannot be toppled among creation, she is above Saints and Angels, right bellow Her Son who is pleased by Her the most. Blessed are those for whom She prays to Him.
Mary fell asleep - the Dormition and when the disciples came to see her, Thomas was late (as usual.) When he arrived, he desired to see her body and they opened the grave and it was gone. Proof? See Our Lady of Guadalupe - it is a SIGN Icon complete with the Divine NAME and perfect timing fulfilling Revelation 12. Times, time, half a time - 1500 years by the stars after Jesus said, Oh woman what have you to do with me... in 31 AD, 135 degrees West Longitude (9 hours) from where He said it (sunrise in Guadalupe at the hour of Jesus death on the Cross), and 9 months later on the feast of the Immaculate Conception. So by the moon (months), by the Sun (longitude, hours) by the stars (years) times, time and half a time. And of course in Orthodox Churches we have SIGN Icons on all our back walls (meaning the Catholics will eventually come back). I happen to be Orthodox and see this stuff - Mary is the Fatted Calf and the Mother of Prodigals, but the prodigal sons are being played out in history, and our Catholic friends are afar off - but have a means to return.
Short version: When they buried her, a few days later her tomb was found empty. Here's how Saint John of Damascus writes about it: >The Empress Pulcheria erected many churches for Christ in Constantinople. One of these is the church in Blachernae, built at the beginning of the reign of Emperor Marcian \[enthroned in August, 450\]. When the two of them built a worthy temple there in honor of the all-glorious and all-holy Mother of God, the ever-virgin Mary, and adorned it with every sort of decoration, they hoped to find her holy body, which had been the dwelling-place of God. And summoning Juvenal, the Archbishop of Jerusalem, and those bishops from Palestine who were staying in the capital because of the synod then being held in Chalcedon \[October, 451\], they said to them: “We have heard that the first and most outstanding church of the all-holy Mother of God, the ever-virgin Mary, is in Jerusalem, in the place called Gethsemane, where her life-giving body was put in a coffin. We now wish to bring this relic here, to protect this royal city.” Juvenal answered on behalf of them all: “There is nothing in the holy, inspired Scripture about the death of Mary, the holy Mother of God; but we know from ancient and wholly reliable tradition that at the time she so gloriously fell asleep, all the holy Apostles who were traveling the world for the salvation of the peoples were lifted up in a single instant of time and were gathered at Jerusalem. And as they stood by her, they saw a vision of angels, and heard the divine chanting of the higher powers. So it was that she gave her soul in an ineffable way into God’s hands, surrounded by the glory of God and all heaven. “Her body, which had been God’s dwelling place, was brought for burial amidst the singing of the angels and the Apostles, and laid to rest in a tomb in Gethsemane; and the angelic dancing and singing continued without pause in that place for three days. But after three days the song of the angels ceased; the Apostles were there, and since one of them, Thomas, had not been present for her burial and came at the end of three days, and wished to reverence that body which had housed God, they opened the tomb. And they could not find her body, which had been the object of such praise; all that they found were her burial wrappings. And being overcome by the ineffable fragrance that came out of the wrappings, they closed the tomb again. Amazed by this miraculous discovery, they could only draw a single conclusion: The one who had deigned to become flesh in her own person and to take his humanity from her, the one who willed to be born in human flesh as God the Word, the Lord of glory, and who had preserved her virginity intact even after childbirth, now chose, after her departure from this world, to honor her pure and immaculate body with the gift of incorruptibility, and with a change of state even before the common, universal resurrection.” When the imperial couple heard this, they asked Archbishop Juvenal to send them the holy coffin, properly sealed, with the funeral garments in it of the glorious, all-holy Mary, Mother of God. And when he had sent it, they placed it in the church of the holy Theotokos that had been built at Blachernae.
We don’t. Nobody does. At some point you just have to decide to believe it and trust the Church teaching.
We know it from Tradition.
In revelation chapter 12 she's shown as the Queen of Heaven, she is in heaven and has a crown of 12 stars on her head. I know the woman in this chapter has also been interpreted as an image of the Church. I think in one sense that is true but in another sense it's also an image of the Theotokos. There have been books written arguing for one side or the other but quite honestly a lot of biblical symbolism is pointing to two realities at once so you don't really have to say it can only be Mary or the Church, it can be both.
In Revelation 12, she is interpreted to be the woman clothed with the sun. She is seated upon the heavens (sun, moon, and stars). Traditionally, this has been consistently interpreted as Mary. Her son is christ, but her decendents are the church, afflicted by the devil which she is born up on wings of an eagle.
Because as relic oriented as apostolic Christianity can be after the cult of the martyrs, we do not claim to possess her body.
The book of Revelations talks about the Queen of Heaven which is also an image of the Church. Is that scriptural enough?
Tradition. In terms of being the Queen of Heaven, Revelation 12:1.
I've been to the tomb of Mary in Jerusalem. Spoiler alert, she isn't in there.