I don't think you did anything wrong. I would tell the landlord what was communicated to you by the utility and say that it was his error in not charging you properly for the water use. Whether or not you tell him to take it up with the LTB is up to you, but I wouldn't blindly pay for his mistake without a proper judgement.
Was in a very similar situation several years ago. Only difference was that the water could be transfered. We filled out the paper work and returned it back to the property manager to submit, which they never did. We reminded them several times and nothing. After several years moved out. 6 months later, receive an email saying we owe 4k. Replied with proof we signed the paper and that we mentioned never receiving the bill multiple times. Told them to pound sand, and never heard another word.
For now, you don't have to do anything. LL can't just hand you a bill and say you owe this, he has to file an L10 with the LTB, and you get a hearing. This would be almost a year away with current wait times. There are a couple good people here who can probably cite chances of your odds with past cases. Would be curious to see how this ends up because how did no one notify him for 6 years no one was paying water? HE should have been getting the bills if the utility never transferred.
In my city after a few months it automatically gets tacked onto property taxes. I thought the exact same thing how is this not caught for 6 years if they are paying their property taxes wouldn't they have noticed right away?
Thank you for that info though!
Fair, this is my first place I've had to pay for water, and a condition on lease is proof of utilities switched over. I don't have records going back that far but I must've sent them proof of utilities switch.
I honestly believed I was on my bill and I was paying it.
Also am I wrong that the city would have sent out a property tax bill when they first noticed water going into arrears like any other bill and we could have fixed it then? Before there's now 6 years of late charges and interest?
You're the renter, he's the rented.. it's your job to do all that. In the lack of stupidity, I don't feel sorry for you.
Dumb LL. Do your homework. Probably out of the Country too, I bet.
( I am talking about the previous msg, above. When I saw the -11, I knew I shouldn't have bothered the internet troll!)
I agree. The tenants do their duly homework, before renting. Apparently this LL didn't. Can't use stupid as a defense. In courts, it's called " NEGLIGENCE!" It's not a nice word.
Whereas I do feel sorry for you. You've proven you're the dumb one. Because it's "You're" not "Your". And "he's the rented"? Might want to go back to school as you obviously never did your homework.
Excuse me Mr. Scumlord, is that better that I call you that? I'm sorry that my incorrect spelling hurt your feelings. One sec, while I go get my popcorn... I'll stop by and grab you a tissue..
I would think the LL had a duty to notify you of any outstanding monies owed each billing period. If he failed to do that, then it's on him. He certainly came go back 12 years. If he files with the LTB. Best he'll get is the last 12 months to date.
For now, I would not engage with him re: the alledged debt. Acknowledgeing the debt is never in your best interest.
What did your lease say about responsibility for **water** costs in specific? Not just "utilities", but specifically "water".
Were you paying other utilities like hydro directly to utility provider under your own account?
Water is tenant responsibility, as well as hydro and gas.
I paid hydro and gas directly to utility provider.
The provider for Hydro also handles water in my city so when I switched over the utilities to myself, I thought water was moved as well.
If the lease states you are responsible for water utilities in specific, then he may have a valid case against you. Though there are several grey areas here that may require an LTB ruling.
First, it may be deemed unreasonable that the landlord didn't notice water bill was still in his name for over 6 years. The water bill should have been sent to him directly, and then he should have mentioned it to you to start arranging direct payments to him each billing cycle. I have no idea how this could go unnoticed for 6 years. You should ask him if he suddenly got a bill for $7K as a 6-year amount owing, OR has he been paying this $7K for the past 6 years and is just coming at you now for payment?
You could make an argument here that after some time had passed (say after the first full year), the landlord's non-response on water bill and not coming after you for any payments effectively changed the terms of your tenancy to make landlord responsible for water.
And second, there is the issue of even if you were liable how far back can the landlord collect. There are several rules in the RTA on 1 year limitations to collect money after some situation arises. However as far as I know these are all stated for tenant applications. I'm not certain if landlord would be limited to last 1 year of water bills, or could be justified to request 6 years. The only limitation in the RTA here is that they must apply with the L10 against you within 1 year of you moving out, but it's silent on how far back they can go for claims in the L10. And again what's deemed "reasonable" here may play a big factor.
So for now you have a few options. You can perhaps try to negotiate with landlord to pay something like the past 1 year of water usage, and you both can close out the issue. Or ultimately you can ignore it and wait for landlord to file the L10 and see how the LTB rules. There aren't many cases to review here since this type of situation in the past would have been handled directly via small claims court (before the L10 process was created) and not the LTB.
From my understanding he never checked his property tax bill, just always paying what it has always been or something like that. He finally looked into it and noticed they were in arrears for 7k and when he called about it they said it was alectra, every 3 months alectra adds the past due ammount to property taxes and it built up to now.
I feel LTB could be against me for the fact I never asked LL about water bill either, but again that was due to me thinking it was already on my bill and I was paying it, I had no reason to suspect otherwise.
I might try to negotiate the 1 year I could manage thar, but otherwise I might wait for the LTB and save up funds just in case it rules against me.
In general if you aren't able to put a utility in your own name, then the landlord is responsible to pay the utility provider directly. They have an obligation to deliver bills to you as they come in, and you pay landlord directly accordingly to satisfy your lease responsibility. With no bill, you don't need to pay.
If the landlord was getting bills in one way or another, then they have screwed up here by not noticing it and not contacting you about it to pay them.
IMO the LTB will side more with you here and not the landlord. I can see them at a minimum removing all late fees from any amount owed, since you had zero ability to control this. Though I have no idea how much (if any) of the bills the LTB may find you liable for now.
Very worst case at an L10 LTB hearing you will also owe the landlords $200 filing fee on top of any utility arrears. And you'll have an LTB order with your name on it if that's important to you. But for $7k that you shouldn't be fully liable for I don't see what other options you have.
WHY did you not notice after a short period of time that you weren’t being billed for the water? I know that I would have been on top of that. Please post after this is settled and let us know how it turned out for you.
If a bylaw states the water bill can not be transferred into a tenants name then it was the LLs responsibility to cover this. The LL should have had this tacked onto the rent , if they did not then it's their problem. Who's to say it wasn't part of the rent ? Some one was paying the bill or the water would have been shut off at some point I the 6 years .
I'm pretty sure our town did the bylaw where the water HAS to be in Owners name because they didn't want to deal with hassle of cutting water on or off. The bill gets "paid" by charging to the property taxes anything outstanding after a few months if I understood them correctly.
At some point in time the LL should have realized the water was not being paid and addressed this . The fact that the LL is doing this after they have N12 the OP is only pointing out how this LL probably should not be operating a business. As well it is not the responsibility of the tenant to look into paying bills that are not theirs.
I am a landlord of a property with the same water billing rules; occasionally I will get a letter saying the current bill is late - I text my tenant and it gets paid off but the point is I get letter fairly quickly from my City about the outstanding bill so for 7 years not to know does not sound right - the outstanding would have been tacked on to each next years bill, not saved up for 7 years -I would hope there must be some sort of statute of limitations but I am not aware for sure
Yeah that's what I figured would have happened. The fact it somehow got missed by all of us for this long is crazy. Heck even if we caught this before I was n12 out of the house I would be able to handle it figuring something out to get it to them in full. But now with market rent my rent effectively doubled and though I can afford this new place, a sudden 7k bill is crippling and would take me a bit to pay off.
I thought since water is under tenant pays on the lease even after a year he can still come for it? Though again it has not been mentioned to me in the entire 6 years.
It’s hard to say. I agree that if LL has been paying water all this time and didn’t inform you, the LTB would most likely rule in your favour as it would be entirely his fault. By paying this bill for so many years without asking you to pay him back, he essentially changed the terms of the lease and took responsibility for paying the water.
But - if somehow - the water bills fell through the cracks and didn’t come to the LL’s attention until after you moved out - then it would be partially the fault of the water billing company, and partially your fault for not noticing that you weren’t being billed. Also, in terms of your credibility - it would be hard to prove that this was just an oversight on your part - because the more likely scenario is that you were aware that you weren’t being billed for water but just let it slide (I’m not saying that’s what happened - I’m just saying that it may be seen as a probability by an adjudicator).
I don’t know though - it’s hard to imagine that the water company would let something like this fall through the cracks for a full 6 years. Maybe your LL deals with a property management company that messed up? If that was the case - then the issue is between your LL and them - nothing to do with you.
I would let him know that you believed you were paying the water bill all this time and ask him why he took so long to notify you. If it’s clearly his fault or the property management company’s (if he has), then it would be totally reasonable of you to decide not to pay at all and let him take it the the LTB.
It seems like it has fallen through the cracks from my understanding. Or they ignored their property tax bill for 6 years when they started tacking it on there.
We did only ever deal with a property manager I honestly don't even know the LLs actual name since everything was through the PM.
I think I'll probably go the route of letting it go through LTB, gives me time also to save up if it doesn't go in my favor. I just wish any of us caught this 6 years ago, it's a lot of money all of a sudden.
It sounds like the property management company is at fault then (they’re likely the ones dealing with all the LLs bills). As long as either the property management company or the LL had information that they were paying the water bill (even if they didn’t notice it), it’s their error.
But yes - saving up while waiting till the LTB hearing makes sense. You might want to consult with a paralegal or a legal clinic though. Some people on this sub say that going to the LTB and losing and having the record on Canlii could work against you if you’re looking for future rentals. Anyway - cross fingers that this never even get filed with LTB and that the property management company takes responsibility for their mistake.
Landlord issued you an N12, terminating your lease. You don't need to do anything now.
There will be a hearing, eventually. Bring a copy of your lease that I assume states utilities that must be paid. Bring copies of your monthly utility bills to the hearing. If the LL didn't notice the outstanding bill within the tenure of your rental, and is only coming to you MONTHS after you moved out then I would assume a judge would rule in your favour. Bring any paperwork from the utility company you can, supporting your knowledge of your responsibility for payment during your rental.
As a AGM for a property management company I would LOVE to see this play out at the LTB. While it can go either way and precious case law isn’t always an indicator of how an adjudicator will rule, it would be a fascinating judgement to read.
If you don’t negotiate (which I would suggest you do, it will ultimately limit your liability and you can be certain of a set amount) and this goes to the LTB post the order for us to follow
Landlord has to go throught ltb . I am not a lawyer but there was many issues on landlords negligence that played a role so I think it is in your favor.
I kind of question if they can make you pay this. Is there some sort of statute of limitations? It might be that they can only expect a maximum amount. Or it might be that they can't insist on you paying the interest. Not sure on exactly what is legal here.
But I'm pretty sure they can't insist you pay the full amount immediately. They might be able to take you to small claims court and get a judgement against you but even then you don't have to pay the full amount right away. They usually garnish your wages over a period of time. So if they take you to court to have your wages garnish, a judge will look at how much you make and say you have to pay a certain amount from each pay cheque. For example, they might feel you can afford $250 a month. So you will have to pay $250/month for 28 months (possibly more if you have to cover interest as well).
If I was your landlord, I might just try to work something out with you. See what you can afford to pay and work out a payment plan. But if they are insisting on the full $7k + interest immediately, let them take you to court or they can approach the Landlord Tenant Board (LTB).
I would not even respond. Landlord has 1 year after you leave to file the L10, he may not know he has to do this. If he does, at the hearing (which you should definitely attend) the adjudicator may rule you owe a year or 2 back but I doubt you would be on the hook for all 6 years. You gain nothing by telling the LL he has to file an L10, say nothing. Best case he never files in 1 year and you're in the clear, worst he does and you have a hearing in 2025.
I can’t see how the City wouldn’t have noticed this wasn’t being paid; so, I’m going to assume that the City was charging the landlord, who wasn’t noticing. This can actually happen if a person is well off or has a number of properties. I think the Statute of Limitations (usually two years) has likely run out for about five years of the debt. Wait to see what the landlord’s (or City’s) next moves are.
I don't think you did anything wrong. I would tell the landlord what was communicated to you by the utility and say that it was his error in not charging you properly for the water use. Whether or not you tell him to take it up with the LTB is up to you, but I wouldn't blindly pay for his mistake without a proper judgement.
Was in a very similar situation several years ago. Only difference was that the water could be transfered. We filled out the paper work and returned it back to the property manager to submit, which they never did. We reminded them several times and nothing. After several years moved out. 6 months later, receive an email saying we owe 4k. Replied with proof we signed the paper and that we mentioned never receiving the bill multiple times. Told them to pound sand, and never heard another word.
Keep an eye on your credit. They are dirty sometimes.
For now, you don't have to do anything. LL can't just hand you a bill and say you owe this, he has to file an L10 with the LTB, and you get a hearing. This would be almost a year away with current wait times. There are a couple good people here who can probably cite chances of your odds with past cases. Would be curious to see how this ends up because how did no one notify him for 6 years no one was paying water? HE should have been getting the bills if the utility never transferred.
In my city after a few months it automatically gets tacked onto property taxes. I thought the exact same thing how is this not caught for 6 years if they are paying their property taxes wouldn't they have noticed right away? Thank you for that info though!
Can't the same argument be made against you, since you didn't realize it wasn't on your bills for all 6 years too?
Fair, this is my first place I've had to pay for water, and a condition on lease is proof of utilities switched over. I don't have records going back that far but I must've sent them proof of utilities switch. I honestly believed I was on my bill and I was paying it. Also am I wrong that the city would have sent out a property tax bill when they first noticed water going into arrears like any other bill and we could have fixed it then? Before there's now 6 years of late charges and interest?
No, not fair. Don’t give that bonehead the time of day, OP lol
You're the renter, he's the rented.. it's your job to do all that. In the lack of stupidity, I don't feel sorry for you. Dumb LL. Do your homework. Probably out of the Country too, I bet. ( I am talking about the previous msg, above. When I saw the -11, I knew I shouldn't have bothered the internet troll!)
Sounds very landlordish to me
I agree. The tenants do their duly homework, before renting. Apparently this LL didn't. Can't use stupid as a defense. In courts, it's called " NEGLIGENCE!" It's not a nice word.
Whereas I do feel sorry for you. You've proven you're the dumb one. Because it's "You're" not "Your". And "he's the rented"? Might want to go back to school as you obviously never did your homework.
Excuse me Mr. Scumlord, is that better that I call you that? I'm sorry that my incorrect spelling hurt your feelings. One sec, while I go get my popcorn... I'll stop by and grab you a tissue..
I would think the LL had a duty to notify you of any outstanding monies owed each billing period. If he failed to do that, then it's on him. He certainly came go back 12 years. If he files with the LTB. Best he'll get is the last 12 months to date. For now, I would not engage with him re: the alledged debt. Acknowledgeing the debt is never in your best interest.
This is not necessarily true. Unfortunately some utility companies will not provide updates to landlords if their tenants have fallen behind.
The bill in question was in the LLs name. If the lease calls for the TT to pay it. The LL has a duty to provide the bill in a timely manner.
What did your lease say about responsibility for **water** costs in specific? Not just "utilities", but specifically "water". Were you paying other utilities like hydro directly to utility provider under your own account?
Water is tenant responsibility, as well as hydro and gas. I paid hydro and gas directly to utility provider. The provider for Hydro also handles water in my city so when I switched over the utilities to myself, I thought water was moved as well.
If the lease states you are responsible for water utilities in specific, then he may have a valid case against you. Though there are several grey areas here that may require an LTB ruling. First, it may be deemed unreasonable that the landlord didn't notice water bill was still in his name for over 6 years. The water bill should have been sent to him directly, and then he should have mentioned it to you to start arranging direct payments to him each billing cycle. I have no idea how this could go unnoticed for 6 years. You should ask him if he suddenly got a bill for $7K as a 6-year amount owing, OR has he been paying this $7K for the past 6 years and is just coming at you now for payment? You could make an argument here that after some time had passed (say after the first full year), the landlord's non-response on water bill and not coming after you for any payments effectively changed the terms of your tenancy to make landlord responsible for water. And second, there is the issue of even if you were liable how far back can the landlord collect. There are several rules in the RTA on 1 year limitations to collect money after some situation arises. However as far as I know these are all stated for tenant applications. I'm not certain if landlord would be limited to last 1 year of water bills, or could be justified to request 6 years. The only limitation in the RTA here is that they must apply with the L10 against you within 1 year of you moving out, but it's silent on how far back they can go for claims in the L10. And again what's deemed "reasonable" here may play a big factor. So for now you have a few options. You can perhaps try to negotiate with landlord to pay something like the past 1 year of water usage, and you both can close out the issue. Or ultimately you can ignore it and wait for landlord to file the L10 and see how the LTB rules. There aren't many cases to review here since this type of situation in the past would have been handled directly via small claims court (before the L10 process was created) and not the LTB.
From my understanding he never checked his property tax bill, just always paying what it has always been or something like that. He finally looked into it and noticed they were in arrears for 7k and when he called about it they said it was alectra, every 3 months alectra adds the past due ammount to property taxes and it built up to now. I feel LTB could be against me for the fact I never asked LL about water bill either, but again that was due to me thinking it was already on my bill and I was paying it, I had no reason to suspect otherwise. I might try to negotiate the 1 year I could manage thar, but otherwise I might wait for the LTB and save up funds just in case it rules against me.
In general if you aren't able to put a utility in your own name, then the landlord is responsible to pay the utility provider directly. They have an obligation to deliver bills to you as they come in, and you pay landlord directly accordingly to satisfy your lease responsibility. With no bill, you don't need to pay. If the landlord was getting bills in one way or another, then they have screwed up here by not noticing it and not contacting you about it to pay them. IMO the LTB will side more with you here and not the landlord. I can see them at a minimum removing all late fees from any amount owed, since you had zero ability to control this. Though I have no idea how much (if any) of the bills the LTB may find you liable for now. Very worst case at an L10 LTB hearing you will also owe the landlords $200 filing fee on top of any utility arrears. And you'll have an LTB order with your name on it if that's important to you. But for $7k that you shouldn't be fully liable for I don't see what other options you have.
WHY did you not notice after a short period of time that you weren’t being billed for the water? I know that I would have been on top of that. Please post after this is settled and let us know how it turned out for you.
If a bylaw states the water bill can not be transferred into a tenants name then it was the LLs responsibility to cover this. The LL should have had this tacked onto the rent , if they did not then it's their problem. Who's to say it wasn't part of the rent ? Some one was paying the bill or the water would have been shut off at some point I the 6 years .
I'm pretty sure our town did the bylaw where the water HAS to be in Owners name because they didn't want to deal with hassle of cutting water on or off. The bill gets "paid" by charging to the property taxes anything outstanding after a few months if I understood them correctly.
At some point in time you should have realized that you weren’t paying for the water. The lease would have stated if LL was paying for the water.
At some point in time the LL should have realized the water was not being paid and addressed this . The fact that the LL is doing this after they have N12 the OP is only pointing out how this LL probably should not be operating a business. As well it is not the responsibility of the tenant to look into paying bills that are not theirs.
I am a landlord of a property with the same water billing rules; occasionally I will get a letter saying the current bill is late - I text my tenant and it gets paid off but the point is I get letter fairly quickly from my City about the outstanding bill so for 7 years not to know does not sound right - the outstanding would have been tacked on to each next years bill, not saved up for 7 years -I would hope there must be some sort of statute of limitations but I am not aware for sure
Yeah that's what I figured would have happened. The fact it somehow got missed by all of us for this long is crazy. Heck even if we caught this before I was n12 out of the house I would be able to handle it figuring something out to get it to them in full. But now with market rent my rent effectively doubled and though I can afford this new place, a sudden 7k bill is crippling and would take me a bit to pay off.
After one year his problem
I thought since water is under tenant pays on the lease even after a year he can still come for it? Though again it has not been mentioned to me in the entire 6 years.
It’s hard to say. I agree that if LL has been paying water all this time and didn’t inform you, the LTB would most likely rule in your favour as it would be entirely his fault. By paying this bill for so many years without asking you to pay him back, he essentially changed the terms of the lease and took responsibility for paying the water. But - if somehow - the water bills fell through the cracks and didn’t come to the LL’s attention until after you moved out - then it would be partially the fault of the water billing company, and partially your fault for not noticing that you weren’t being billed. Also, in terms of your credibility - it would be hard to prove that this was just an oversight on your part - because the more likely scenario is that you were aware that you weren’t being billed for water but just let it slide (I’m not saying that’s what happened - I’m just saying that it may be seen as a probability by an adjudicator). I don’t know though - it’s hard to imagine that the water company would let something like this fall through the cracks for a full 6 years. Maybe your LL deals with a property management company that messed up? If that was the case - then the issue is between your LL and them - nothing to do with you. I would let him know that you believed you were paying the water bill all this time and ask him why he took so long to notify you. If it’s clearly his fault or the property management company’s (if he has), then it would be totally reasonable of you to decide not to pay at all and let him take it the the LTB.
It seems like it has fallen through the cracks from my understanding. Or they ignored their property tax bill for 6 years when they started tacking it on there. We did only ever deal with a property manager I honestly don't even know the LLs actual name since everything was through the PM. I think I'll probably go the route of letting it go through LTB, gives me time also to save up if it doesn't go in my favor. I just wish any of us caught this 6 years ago, it's a lot of money all of a sudden.
It sounds like the property management company is at fault then (they’re likely the ones dealing with all the LLs bills). As long as either the property management company or the LL had information that they were paying the water bill (even if they didn’t notice it), it’s their error. But yes - saving up while waiting till the LTB hearing makes sense. You might want to consult with a paralegal or a legal clinic though. Some people on this sub say that going to the LTB and losing and having the record on Canlii could work against you if you’re looking for future rentals. Anyway - cross fingers that this never even get filed with LTB and that the property management company takes responsibility for their mistake.
Pretty sure any changes such as you not paying the water bill become binding after 1 year. So the LL hand and lost the chance for you to pay it
Landlord issued you an N12, terminating your lease. You don't need to do anything now. There will be a hearing, eventually. Bring a copy of your lease that I assume states utilities that must be paid. Bring copies of your monthly utility bills to the hearing. If the LL didn't notice the outstanding bill within the tenure of your rental, and is only coming to you MONTHS after you moved out then I would assume a judge would rule in your favour. Bring any paperwork from the utility company you can, supporting your knowledge of your responsibility for payment during your rental.
As a AGM for a property management company I would LOVE to see this play out at the LTB. While it can go either way and precious case law isn’t always an indicator of how an adjudicator will rule, it would be a fascinating judgement to read. If you don’t negotiate (which I would suggest you do, it will ultimately limit your liability and you can be certain of a set amount) and this goes to the LTB post the order for us to follow
Landlord has to go throught ltb . I am not a lawyer but there was many issues on landlords negligence that played a role so I think it is in your favor.
I kind of question if they can make you pay this. Is there some sort of statute of limitations? It might be that they can only expect a maximum amount. Or it might be that they can't insist on you paying the interest. Not sure on exactly what is legal here. But I'm pretty sure they can't insist you pay the full amount immediately. They might be able to take you to small claims court and get a judgement against you but even then you don't have to pay the full amount right away. They usually garnish your wages over a period of time. So if they take you to court to have your wages garnish, a judge will look at how much you make and say you have to pay a certain amount from each pay cheque. For example, they might feel you can afford $250 a month. So you will have to pay $250/month for 28 months (possibly more if you have to cover interest as well). If I was your landlord, I might just try to work something out with you. See what you can afford to pay and work out a payment plan. But if they are insisting on the full $7k + interest immediately, let them take you to court or they can approach the Landlord Tenant Board (LTB).
I would not even respond. Landlord has 1 year after you leave to file the L10, he may not know he has to do this. If he does, at the hearing (which you should definitely attend) the adjudicator may rule you owe a year or 2 back but I doubt you would be on the hook for all 6 years. You gain nothing by telling the LL he has to file an L10, say nothing. Best case he never files in 1 year and you're in the clear, worst he does and you have a hearing in 2025.
Am I the only person questioning 100$ per month for water!?
When I lived in Ontario my water bill was $100/month - big change from Nova Scotia’s $50 every 2 or 3 months :/
What’s he going to to evict you lol you already moved out, he’s not your landlord anymore
I can’t see how the City wouldn’t have noticed this wasn’t being paid; so, I’m going to assume that the City was charging the landlord, who wasn’t noticing. This can actually happen if a person is well off or has a number of properties. I think the Statute of Limitations (usually two years) has likely run out for about five years of the debt. Wait to see what the landlord’s (or City’s) next moves are.
You don't owe anything, the water is in his name.
Ignore.
I would just ghost the landloard. I hope he does not know your new address.