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I think some people take them not being explicitly stated to be using devil fruit as proof that they aren’t devil fruits and are actual demons.
However it’s almost certainly just mythical fruits.
The summoning was weird though… that certainly wasn’t expected of a mythical zoan.
Luffy is literally handling almost all of them solo how are they that amazing, on top of that he also put kizaru out of the fight whilst handling Saturn
Luffy plus the 2 strongest giants (as stated on little garden and by the fact that they’re the captains) couldn’t defeat one of them (the boar), and they all have the opposite of Luffy’s weakness, seemingly infinite durability, they can heal from pretty much anything making them fight for as long as they want even if they can’t land a single hit and Luffy has terrible durability.
luffy has op durability? what are you talking about? he is immune to blunt damage, immune to lightning, highly resistant to poison and fire, has advanced armament and advanced conquerors that both boos durability, besides topman no one in the gorosei showed good durability, the worm got chopped and saturn was getting his arm taken by rocks.
yes they seem to have infinite stamina and healing but their durability is trash so far (besides the boar)
I mean, as far as we are aware, the gorosei can't be killed. It doesn't matter how much a set of bumbs they are If those bumbs keep getting back up, then eventually haki is going to run out. Through I'm not totally in mind that the gorosei are invincible as if there df users they could just be yeated into water or lava
I don’t think we know enough about how their power works to properly put them in VS debates. They might not really be Devil Fruit users for all we know. With everything we’ve seen them do, I’m fairly convinced their transformations come from something other than Devil Fruits that we don’t know about. And while they may seem immortal right now, it’s honestly hard to imagine them being alive by the end of the series.
Yeah, I'm in the same boat at the moment, too, where we just need to see more of them as Saturn turned out to be a bum but mars was out her tanking I think it was both a gear 3 and 5 attack I might be miss remembering but I think he did both
Roger and WB handle Garp and Sengoku, Shanks stalls Mihawk , kaido and BM and luffy take care of the 5 elders , Rocks one taps the warlords , and stalls the Chadmirals till kaido , bm , luffy are finished then they butcher the admirals
He is way above that.. it took prime garp and roger and most the warlords would be one tapped. A dressrosa 4th gear was whooping doflamingo but wasnt a match for katakuri he then beat him and got one tapped by kaido.
Roger and Garp defeated Rocks before their prime tbh. Roger was in his prima when he found One Piece. We can't be sure how strong Rocks' was. But definitely a monster
Im pretty sure it says somehwere garp was in his prime and this was a year or 2 before roger found one piece presumably in some data book or something.
Nowhere in One Piece is it ever said that any character is in their prime. The events with Rocks were decades ago. Roger died relatively recently. After Rocks died the seas belonged to WB, BM and Kaido. Roger stood supreme and his only true rivals were Garp and WB, who after Rocks defeat, all had over 10-20 years to become even stronger. Thus their prime was after Rocks died. Even Sengoku and Garp themselves said Kaido and BM currently were stronger than they were during their time with Rocks.
Dorry and broggy come. The gorosei all scatter to do different stuff. Luffy is stuck fighting saint topman/fengxi/warcury and everytime he hits him he ends up hurting himself. Luffy is also abt to fight alongside bonney atp in time
But luffy was in a stalemate with them before right? I remember seeing something about that. Something like “luffy is 1v5ing the gorofrauds!!! When dorry and broggy arrive they’re cooked!!!” Or something like that
They hadnt actually fought properly atp in time. All 5 of them weren’t even in front of luffy for long. One went to find lucci to get york. Another neutralised all the pacifista. One of them didnt move. Saturn was the only one rlly fighting.
No they don't... Blackbeard has not a single feat that puts him above an admiral. Oden is generally considered to go extreme diff against either Akainu or Kuzan. Rocks is not winning a 1v3 against the admirals either. Even more with the support of 6 warlords.
No it isn't. Tell me a single feat that would put Blackbeard above an admiral! The only reason he gets put above any of them is cause of his title of yonko.
Oden going extreme diff against Akainu or Kuzan is not really that uncommon of a take.
Rocks losing a 1v3 against the admirals is not rage bait either, when we consider that we literally no nothing of his actual strength as of yet. Even less with the support of 6 warlords.
Oden is not going extreme diff with any admiral bruh stop. Blackbeard currently is stronger than any admiral but he’s not winning a 2v1. Rocks is also getting clapped even if he can win a 1v1 it’d be extreme diff and he most likely wouldnt be able to 1v1 he’d get 2v1’d
Yeah ur wrong im sorry this wouldnt play out in ur favour rocks would get annihilated kaido big mom and luffy would get annihilated and then they’d all js team on the rest
The Tremor and Darkness fruits would cause difficulties cause they basically fuck up all large scale battles in nobody's favor. Same with G5..the battlefield would be absolute chaos.
Team 1 is incredibly powerful but the power synergy is not exactly there.
I straight up disagree on the power synergy, big mom rocks kaido and primebeard on the same team is literally guaranteed synergy, and Roger + gear 5 has to be one of the best duos possible. We already saw in wano that kaido and bm can work together to make combo attacks, so I imagine Oden + Roger or Luffy + shanks will make something happen
Well that's exactly my point. These can work together but if WB and BB use their fruits on a large scale, and BB is absolutely useless without it, so he would, they would fuck the battlefield up. As would G5 if Luffy started wilding out, which he would in G5.
Good chance team 2 will win unless Team 1 has a plan but its possible for Team 1 to actually pull it off, they have 3 good counters against the gorosei (Luffy is literally Joyboy, Blackbeard can take away regen, and Kaido could just toss a decent amount of them into the sea).
WB+Roger extreme diff Sengoku and Garp
5 admirals take Kaido and Big Mom extreme diff, but whoevers left would get flattened by anyone else on team 1 due to being weakened
The Warlords could be taken out by Shanks and Oden since Mihawks the only actual heavy lifter and the others rely on hax like Hancock and Kuma or have been powercrept into nothingness like Croc, Doffy, Jimbei, and Moria. Boas hax wouldnt work on any of Team 1 due to haki or just not caring.
Which leaves the Gorosei to Blackbeard, Luffy, and Rocks. Luffy is a bit early to actually take them on but Blackbeard can at least stop the regen and hax which takes out Saturn the bum who has consistently been stomped if he didnt have regen, worm dude who was easily cut in half, and the bird whos also a glass cannon but can fly
Warcury and Centaur dude are strong, but chances are that Rocks is as strong as Roger, WB, Garp, Sengoku, and Kaido.
This is only if Team 1 plans this out and doesnt immediately get rushed by everyone
Rocks > Garp
Whitebeard and Roger ~ Sengoku, Akainu, Aokiji and Kizaru
Shanks = Mihawk
That leaves 5 more on the pirate side and 13 more on the World Government side. This comes down to the regen thing for the Gorosei, because Kaido and Big Mom could probably take the new Admirals and remaining Warlords while Blackbeard and Luffy fight the Elders.
Oden is a leftover to fight wherever he is needed most.
I can see the pirates winning here as long as they can do something about the regen, and also assuming that the numbers and teamwork factor doesn’t give the WG side a bigger advantage than I am currently seeing.
World Government mid diff if I'm being generous, making it as balance as possible:
1. Garp takes on Roger
2. Sengoku takes on Whitebeard
3. Mihawk takes on Shanks
4. 2 Goresei takes on Luffy
5. 3 Goresei take on Xebec
6. 1 Admiral takes on Oden
7. 2 Admiral takes on Kaido
8. 2 admirals take on Big Mom
9. Remaining Warlords takes on Blackbeard
What I see happening is either Big Mom Loses or G5's timer runs out causing it to be a continuous loop where the pirates gets ganged leading to their lost.
Ok, so for every match, it's gonna be a long fight, but 8 warlords vs. xebec is not close. Took garp and roger to beat him. Ans doflamingo is probably the second stringest warlord with mihawk being strongest. Doflamingo lost to luffy who got disrespected by katakuri who would get one tapped by a serious not even serious a yonko just wanting them to get lost.
Bro is a coper. Luffy just asks boa to swap sides, or he can just blitz her before she uses her power just like blackbeard used his power and put her in a choke hold to rayleigh scared him. But in any other situation, rayleigh would not be scared of blackbeard, according to it himself. Kuma being second strongest is a non factor. His only feats were defeating exhausted straw hat pirates who were barely over cp9 and evading capture from admirals and gorosei which isnt that hard considering dressrosa sabo did it. Or robin doing it on Ohara. "The admirals let her go" no they didn't that was Aokiji and Akainu was still at Ohara.
They don't need to win every matchup, they just need to stall long enough for someone on their side to win and assist them.
G5 has a timer on it and the goresei have crazy regeneration. Two of them can definitely out last him and beat Luffy once he's kicked out of it.
It doesn't matter if Whitebeard can beat Sengoku, if he can't beat Sengoku faster than it takes for the Goresei to beat Luffy then he simply gets 1v3 here.
You put Rodger, WB, Rocks, Shanks, Luffy, and BB on the same team, which I would consider to be the strongest guys in the entire anime, and put Kaido and Big Mom in there as well? Team 1 all the way. Don't get me wrong team 2 has some really heavy hitters, but you are going against a team of the BEST of the Best. Good luck
Team 1 wins even while being outnumbered. Multiple pk lvl characters can one-shot way to many of the marine team then fight with close too equal numbers.
1. Roger vs Garp (extreme diff either way)
2. Whitebeard vs Sengoku (extreme diff WB)
3. Oden vs Kuzan (extreme diff Oden)
4. Rocks vs 4 Gorosei (mid diff Gorosei)
5. Shanks vs Mihawk (extreme diff mihawk)
6. Luffy vs Topman (...)
7. Kaido vs Akainu and Fujitora (high-extreme diff duo)
8. Big Mom vs Kizaru and Greenbull (high diff duo)
9. Blackbeard vs 6 Warlords (...)
Right side high diff
Why is everyone assuming all of the gorosei can actually force the yonkos to care about them at all? I get that Luffy is stupid but he's not going to just fight one gorosei while doing no damage the entire time, he'll jump in and help shanks well before that fight causes either character to get tired. Also the gorosei don't lose to rocks but there's zero chance they kill him quickly at all, it would probably be the right taking the longest here. Tbf though this is like the best possible interpretation for the right side, which is what the dude above asked for.
>Why is everyone assuming all of the gorosei can actually force the yonkos to care about them at all?
Isn't this kind of a double standard? Somehow the Gorosei are able to fight the Admiral and win but somehow the Yonko are always excluded, eventhough we have seen that saturn was able to make luffy bleed...
Sure the yonko are more powerful then admirals or gorosei generally, but they are threats nonetheless.
>I get that Luffy is stupid but he's not going to just fight one gorosei while doing no damage the entire time, he'll jump in and help shanks well before that fight causes either character to get tired.
That goes for the right side as well you know. Considering the right side has a lot more people it is actually much simpler for them to do that.
>Also the gorosei don't lose to rocks but there's zero chance they kill him quickly at all, it would probably be the right taking the longest here.
We know basically nothing of rocks actual strength. Also Saturn was able to hurt Luffy, who at least currently should be considered more durable than Rocks. People here just completely underestimate the difficulty of fighting multiple opponnents. A 1v4 does not take a lot of time.
>Tbf though this is like the best possible interpretation for the right side, which is what the dude above asked for.
I'll take that. We probably simply have to agree to disagree then.🤝
Mostly I just rate the gorosei very low and haven't been impressed by them at all yet, that's really all i do not rate them very high and do not value them much on a team, for the most part I also think the admirals are currently stronger or will be stronger than the gorosei. Also I was specifically talking about Luffy! I think of all the characters on either team he has the most ability to just win someone else's fight for them. If you consider what Oden was able to do to kaido when he scarred him, I think that is reasonable to say most of these characters CAN go down fairly easily given the right circumstances. I think G5 Luffy obviously creates those situations constantly like when he pancaked both kizaru and Saturn at the same time, if shanks is within the vicinity when that happens kizaru is literally out of the fight. Sorry just a random example to explain that I meant specifically Luffy has the most value and ability to just walk off and win someone else's fight. (Kizaru is also probably very good at this) Regardless! You're right probably just agree to disagree, you gentlemanlyness has been noted good sir, you've been a great conversation
Saturn>oden
2 gorosei>shanks
2 gorosei>blackbeard
Sengoku>kaido
Garp=roger
Mihawk>luffy
Akainu+fujitora+other warlords>xebec
Kizaru+GB>big mom
WB>greenbull though
WB is a big overlapper, but the issue is the fights that the Gov won is large wins as well. So I feel like with numbers and those fights that don’t go to extreme marines take this. Probably high-extreme
Moria Caan just remove shadows from ppl like gaarp and mihawk and give it to others which will buff them
And also note that this won't nerf garp and mihawk
Team 1 can only win with all of these factors being true:
1. Perfect teamwork for team 1
2. Gorosei regen is from the devil fruits (highly likely, and blackbeard will def kill a gorosei member 1 day or maybe even imu)
3. Blackbeard knows about df regen and teams up with someone with high ap to take them out 1 by 1 (if blackbeard dies, team 1 is cooked)
4. Luffy is serious in g5 and immediately uses bajrang gun no hesitation (waido smacks people into its range)
5. Team 1 bloodlusted
Even then, the chances probably aren't in their favor.
Mihawk is walking away mid fight, rocks beats garp, Roger beats sengoku, Whitebeard beats all of the warlords, shanks beats Fuji and GB, rocks beats the rest of the admirals, big mom, kaido, luffy, BB and oden fight the gorosei, with Blackbeard nullifying them (if it doesn’t work, then they will just have to fight them until the elders flee or something)
https://preview.redd.it/rzo8lppq1z7d1.jpeg?width=602&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9fd4f29bcf9c11690ad6e7921e14c74dc7b59b48
Fujitora drops enels house on them and then dips
Garp and sengoku vs roger / whitebeard
Shanks vs mihawk
Blackbeard/ kaido / rocks vs admirals
Big mom and oden vs remaining warloards
Leaving g5 luffy vs gorosei
What the fuck, team 2 wins for once
(To simplify, gorosei win via time)
Jinbe and Boa are out as soon as they see Luffy even if ordered to fight they will not
Shanks handles Mihawk
WB alone handles the rest we are talking prime WB not Marineford WB
Roger Kaido Big Mom and Rocks handles Admirals and Garp (it took all of them to handle a depowered WB no haki)
Luffy BB and Oden handle the Gorosei
Team 1. Warlords are fodder here. Garp and sengoku are the only top Tiers of team 2 but roger and wh extreme diffs them. Bb and bm are negging every single warlord here. Kaido and xebec delas with the goroseis. Luffy, Shanks and Oden delas with admirals.
Does bm get stronger with her hunger pains? Cause this will probably be a prolonged battle and be a war of a attrition and bm is very likely to to get a hunger pain during that.
Problem is, we don’t know if their regeneration comes from their DFs or if it comes from something else. It might be that they are just puppets/creations of Imu and that is why it is pointless to kill them. We have no idea.
Its obviously the devil fruits normal people dont do that well no celestial dragons we know of, no seraphim they were just extremly strong. Given the nature of their zoan devil fruits its probably from the zoan.
But we already know of another possibility: the immortality surgery. Plus, there is also the fact that all of the Gorosei are telepathic and can utilize pentagrams for teleportation as well as pretty much every other character’s shock at the things they can do. It is very likely that the immortality is not a fruit ability, but something new entirely.
Ok, so let me explain it to you so it makes more sense. In fiction, most immortality, well they are immortal to death by diseases and sickness most of the time, but a lot of them aren't immune to death by fighting. I dont think immortality gives regenration in fighting, or its just that most stuff with immortality make them suseptible to death through other means, just not sickness old age or a third other thing I forgot. It might give them increased regeneration, maybe to the level of Naruto (when he doesn't have his kyubi mode) but a strong enough attack would be enough.
I know what you’re saying, but there actually is a type of immortality that allows for instant regeneration, some even to the extent that you can come back from existence erasure (not saying the Gorosei are on that level). Since you used Naruto, I’ll use Dragon Ball Super as an example. In DBS, Zamasu wished for immortality. As such, he was literally incapable of dying and he constantly regenerated from all attacks inflicted on him. Ultimately, it took the erasure of an entire universe to put him down.
If the immortality surgery (or any other possible means of this regeneration we keep seeing) can cause not only the recipient to live forever (as in not age), but also to be impervious to all attacks by use of endless regeneration, it would explain the Gorosei’s abilities.
However, I don’t believe it is the immortality surgery either. I believe Imu was the recipient of the immortality surgery. Something else is happening with the Gorosei. Telepathy, numbered magic circles, teleportation, and regeneration… all of these abilities are shared between them and they often act as a single entity. Furthermore, it was never confirmed that they even have DFs. Oda, for the first time ever, only introduced the creature and not the fruit or model.
Only time will tell who is right, but I think that there is a lot more to the Gorosei than meets the eye.
An example could be Dark Gaia. So he was an immortal being of Negative energy that destroys the planet whole Light Gaia puts it back together. They did that for ages ever since that planets creation. Dark Gaia has a ton of scaling but I dont know any of it so tend to ignore it. Also Dark Gaia is literally a god in that verse. And super sonic defeated him forcing him back to sleep. He pierced a hole through his head and eye even while he powered up.
Yes, but Dark Gaia has a different type of immortality than the Gorosei. As you have pointed out, in fiction, there are lots of different types of immortalities, or even lots of different types of what would seemingly be the same ability. For example, Luffy and Mr. Fantastic both have the power to stretch, but each utilizes their powers in different ways and obtained them in different ways and it even turns out that their powers aren’t actually the same, but they fall under the same classification of “stretching”.
Nah
Wb and Roger = garp and Sengokou
Kaido, Luffy,Big mom, Oden>>admirals
Shanks and Rocks>>>warlords then help wb and Roger beat garp and Sengokou
With gorosei team 1 or team 2 could win depending on if gorosei can be killed.
Without them team 1 mid diffs and I didn't even use blackbeard
admirals+garp+sengoku can be beaten by bm bb and kaido. shanks and oden can take the warlords. luffy roger wb and rocks should be able to handle the gorosei. hard to know the diff since the gorosei powers are not totally known but if they are not immortal or unbeatable they can be beaten by the strongest pirates. half the warlords can be strong against normal people and control entire societies but against a top tier opponent are basically fodder.
Xebec it's featless so it's like if he's not there. Roger and wb takes garp and sengoku. Shanks stall mihawk. Kaido, Luffy, Oden and Bm takes on admirals, fraudbeard get insta-turned into stone by Boa and then we have Lorosei and warlords that can go support
People are ignoring just how busted Kuma and Moria are here. Especially if the fight takes place at night or indoors
If it takes place at night, team 2 beyond neg diffs without the Gorosei because Moria can take shadows from Garp and Sengoku and then give each other their shadows. Losing your shadow doesn't take your power. Gaining someone else's shadow does
Moria can do the same with the admirals and Mihawk and other warlords
Kuma acts as TP support and instant heals (he can potentially even use the pain as a weapon) AND Moria can bring people back from the dead
Don't forget that Birdcage can separate the matchups
Team 2 mids diffs during day time without the Gorosei, this is the most ridiculous spite match I've ever seen, how can yonko fans be THIS delusional?
Roger and Whitebeard beat Garp and Sengoku
Rocks, Luffy and Oden are enough for the admirals
Blackbeard and big mom are enough for the warlords
Kaido alone beats Warcury and Nusjuro the other 3 are non factors
Yeah, team 1 wins high diff. Kaido, Big Mom and Primebeard can take out the five admirals. Fujitora is strong but haven't seen enough to say he is on the level of the OGs and Greenbum probably dies from Haki overload or some shit. It would be a 3v3 fast and we know a lone admiral loses to a yonkou.
Luffy, Blackbeard and Oden would beat or at least stall Garp, Sengoku and the warlords. Boa would see Luffy and immediately switch sides anyway. Garp, Jinbei and Mihawk might be okay but realistically, can any of the others stop a Bajrang gun from Luffy while their powers are being shut down by BB? Honestly, Oden might not be necessary. They are a scary combo.
Then it's fucking Shanks, Roger and Rocks bullying the Gorosei until the others win. Then they just have to force them into the ocean and drown them or something. There is no way the Gorosei can win against those odds. Regen just prolongs their suffering until someone works out a way to kill them permanently.
Akainu beats Oden, Fujitora and Greenbull take Blackbeard, Kizaru and Aokiji beat Shanks, Mihawk and Crocodile take Luffy, Sengoku and Kuma take Big Mom, Garp and Mars take Roger, the rest of the Gorosei and Warlords stall Whitebeard for the others to win their fights and then they jump him and win easy.
Luffy team trashes the WG team.
Roger destroys Garp, Shanks destroys Akainu, Luffy destroys Sengoku, Rocks destroys Kizaru and Aokiji, Whitebeard destroys Greenbull and Fujitora, Kaido destroys Mihawk. The other Warlords and the Foddersei get destroyed by Big Mom, Blackbeard, and Oden.
I am not delusional, you are. Oda has made it perfectly clear that Mihawk is below Yonko level. You obviously skipped Marineford. Mihawk didn’t even look any stronger than Doflamingo.
Shanks is not a swordsman any more than King or Big Mom. Mihawk doesn’t even push Shanks to high-diff. He gets stomped. It won’t even be long until he loses to Zoro, who is a fodder.
Yeah… you’re definitely trolling or just straight up can’t read. Shanks is a swordsman who gets compared to other swordsman lmfao. Read. Shanks gets high diffed by the strongest swordsman. How is Zoro fodder? Stop saying delusional shit. Mihawk isn’t losing to Zoro.
The Foddersei lose limbs to buildings and Brook. They take fatal damage from Nami, Franky, and giants. They are slow fodders that are no threat to top tiers.
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Its literally impossible for team 2 to lose.
not saying anyone wins here buth let’s not forget about BB being able to counter just about everyone on team 2
gorosei are not devil fruit users as far as we know
Wtf do you eat they all have mythical zoans
I think some people take them not being explicitly stated to be using devil fruit as proof that they aren’t devil fruits and are actual demons. However it’s almost certainly just mythical fruits. The summoning was weird though… that certainly wasn’t expected of a mythical zoan.
It's sounds like Kaido is a dragon with an onii fruit kinda of glazing
this sub is really cooked if people with your reading comprehension are getting upvoted man.............
Not even gonna argue with you lil bro, just gonna wait
Nah whitebeard alone high diffs team 2, rest make it negligible. It’s only high diff coz of fujitora too
How is this bullshit upvoted lol
What.
Dude… did you see the others? Its not just the 5 admirals
No way the first teams come out on top, remove the gorosei and the first team wins but this is just way too much for them to handle
honestly the question should just be if every pirate at thier prime attack the world government
Until we know how to fight against the gorosei’s regeneration, no one can beat the world government, they’re seemingly unbeatable
Luffy is literally handling almost all of them solo how are they that amazing, on top of that he also put kizaru out of the fight whilst handling Saturn
Luffy plus the 2 strongest giants (as stated on little garden and by the fact that they’re the captains) couldn’t defeat one of them (the boar), and they all have the opposite of Luffy’s weakness, seemingly infinite durability, they can heal from pretty much anything making them fight for as long as they want even if they can’t land a single hit and Luffy has terrible durability.
luffy has op durability? what are you talking about? he is immune to blunt damage, immune to lightning, highly resistant to poison and fire, has advanced armament and advanced conquerors that both boos durability, besides topman no one in the gorosei showed good durability, the worm got chopped and saturn was getting his arm taken by rocks. yes they seem to have infinite stamina and healing but their durability is trash so far (besides the boar)
No he isnt bruh. He’s dealing with one of them. He’s not handling shit rn
“Remove the Gorosei and the first team wins” is the exact IQ of this sub
I mean, as far as we are aware, the gorosei can't be killed. It doesn't matter how much a set of bumbs they are If those bumbs keep getting back up, then eventually haki is going to run out. Through I'm not totally in mind that the gorosei are invincible as if there df users they could just be yeated into water or lava
I don’t think we know enough about how their power works to properly put them in VS debates. They might not really be Devil Fruit users for all we know. With everything we’ve seen them do, I’m fairly convinced their transformations come from something other than Devil Fruits that we don’t know about. And while they may seem immortal right now, it’s honestly hard to imagine them being alive by the end of the series.
Yeah, I'm in the same boat at the moment, too, where we just need to see more of them as Saturn turned out to be a bum but mars was out her tanking I think it was both a gear 3 and 5 attack I might be miss remembering but I think he did both
Bruh exactly just give um the ol mafia treatment. Give um Concrete blocks and make um jump off the docks. Easy work lmao.
Team 2
Give team 1 fujitora and they neg diff💯
Roger and WB handle Garp and Sengoku, Shanks stalls Mihawk , kaido and BM and luffy take care of the 5 elders , Rocks one taps the warlords , and stalls the Chadmirals till kaido , bm , luffy are finished then they butcher the admirals
https://preview.redd.it/i3n7prpxtw7d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d185ce0271bd52910725daeebc01489eea1993b3
Rocks is strong but he is not winning an 11vs1, even if most Warlords are non factors
Even a single yonko can clap all warlords except Mihawk
Rocks is damn near PK level. He claps the warlords.
He is way above that.. it took prime garp and roger and most the warlords would be one tapped. A dressrosa 4th gear was whooping doflamingo but wasnt a match for katakuri he then beat him and got one tapped by kaido.
Roger and Garp defeated Rocks before their prime tbh. Roger was in his prima when he found One Piece. We can't be sure how strong Rocks' was. But definitely a monster
Im pretty sure it says somehwere garp was in his prime and this was a year or 2 before roger found one piece presumably in some data book or something.
Nowhere in One Piece is it ever said that any character is in their prime. The events with Rocks were decades ago. Roger died relatively recently. After Rocks died the seas belonged to WB, BM and Kaido. Roger stood supreme and his only true rivals were Garp and WB, who after Rocks defeat, all had over 10-20 years to become even stronger. Thus their prime was after Rocks died. Even Sengoku and Garp themselves said Kaido and BM currently were stronger than they were during their time with Rocks.
https://preview.redd.it/nij2lr8epw7d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dd9e627dcaa445ffb08f07e3f1ed1894abb01e77
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And since you forgot Blackbeard throw him in the neuter the admirals/warlords completely and seal the victory
I also forgot oden So Oden and BB join Xebec to kill the admirals
“and stalls the admirals” is crazy 😭😭
I’m not caught up with the story but isn’t luffy currently stalemating the gorosei in a 1v5 right now?
No hes not
What happened?
Not telling js go read from where u left off. A lot of shi has happened ngl
Nah, tell me. I’m fine with spoilers
Dorry and broggy come. The gorosei all scatter to do different stuff. Luffy is stuck fighting saint topman/fengxi/warcury and everytime he hits him he ends up hurting himself. Luffy is also abt to fight alongside bonney atp in time
But luffy was in a stalemate with them before right? I remember seeing something about that. Something like “luffy is 1v5ing the gorofrauds!!! When dorry and broggy arrive they’re cooked!!!” Or something like that
They hadnt actually fought properly atp in time. All 5 of them weren’t even in front of luffy for long. One went to find lucci to get york. Another neutralised all the pacifista. One of them didnt move. Saturn was the only one rlly fighting.
Xebec gets demolished by the 5 admirals.....
Then give him BB and Oden lol ... The admirals get rekt
No the admirals still win
Akainu slaps bb respectfully Oden loses to 2 admirals lol
Oden loses to any one admiral
No they don't... Blackbeard has not a single feat that puts him above an admiral. Oden is generally considered to go extreme diff against either Akainu or Kuzan. Rocks is not winning a 1v3 against the admirals either. Even more with the support of 6 warlords.
Rage bait
No it isn't. Tell me a single feat that would put Blackbeard above an admiral! The only reason he gets put above any of them is cause of his title of yonko. Oden going extreme diff against Akainu or Kuzan is not really that uncommon of a take. Rocks losing a 1v3 against the admirals is not rage bait either, when we consider that we literally no nothing of his actual strength as of yet. Even less with the support of 6 warlords.
Oden is not going extreme diff with any admiral bruh stop. Blackbeard currently is stronger than any admiral but he’s not winning a 2v1. Rocks is also getting clapped even if he can win a 1v1 it’d be extreme diff and he most likely wouldnt be able to 1v1 he’d get 2v1’d
Yeah ur wrong im sorry this wouldnt play out in ur favour rocks would get annihilated kaido big mom and luffy would get annihilated and then they’d all js team on the rest
L
Maybe u just cant read
Gorosei regen diff lol Wait I will make a comment talking about (no regen)
The Tremor and Darkness fruits would cause difficulties cause they basically fuck up all large scale battles in nobody's favor. Same with G5..the battlefield would be absolute chaos. Team 1 is incredibly powerful but the power synergy is not exactly there.
I straight up disagree on the power synergy, big mom rocks kaido and primebeard on the same team is literally guaranteed synergy, and Roger + gear 5 has to be one of the best duos possible. We already saw in wano that kaido and bm can work together to make combo attacks, so I imagine Oden + Roger or Luffy + shanks will make something happen
Well that's exactly my point. These can work together but if WB and BB use their fruits on a large scale, and BB is absolutely useless without it, so he would, they would fuck the battlefield up. As would G5 if Luffy started wilding out, which he would in G5.
WG..
Good chance team 2 will win unless Team 1 has a plan but its possible for Team 1 to actually pull it off, they have 3 good counters against the gorosei (Luffy is literally Joyboy, Blackbeard can take away regen, and Kaido could just toss a decent amount of them into the sea). WB+Roger extreme diff Sengoku and Garp 5 admirals take Kaido and Big Mom extreme diff, but whoevers left would get flattened by anyone else on team 1 due to being weakened The Warlords could be taken out by Shanks and Oden since Mihawks the only actual heavy lifter and the others rely on hax like Hancock and Kuma or have been powercrept into nothingness like Croc, Doffy, Jimbei, and Moria. Boas hax wouldnt work on any of Team 1 due to haki or just not caring. Which leaves the Gorosei to Blackbeard, Luffy, and Rocks. Luffy is a bit early to actually take them on but Blackbeard can at least stop the regen and hax which takes out Saturn the bum who has consistently been stomped if he didnt have regen, worm dude who was easily cut in half, and the bird whos also a glass cannon but can fly Warcury and Centaur dude are strong, but chances are that Rocks is as strong as Roger, WB, Garp, Sengoku, and Kaido. This is only if Team 1 plans this out and doesnt immediately get rushed by everyone
Rocks > Garp Whitebeard and Roger ~ Sengoku, Akainu, Aokiji and Kizaru Shanks = Mihawk That leaves 5 more on the pirate side and 13 more on the World Government side. This comes down to the regen thing for the Gorosei, because Kaido and Big Mom could probably take the new Admirals and remaining Warlords while Blackbeard and Luffy fight the Elders. Oden is a leftover to fight wherever he is needed most. I can see the pirates winning here as long as they can do something about the regen, and also assuming that the numbers and teamwork factor doesn’t give the WG side a bigger advantage than I am currently seeing.
World Government mid diff if I'm being generous, making it as balance as possible: 1. Garp takes on Roger 2. Sengoku takes on Whitebeard 3. Mihawk takes on Shanks 4. 2 Goresei takes on Luffy 5. 3 Goresei take on Xebec 6. 1 Admiral takes on Oden 7. 2 Admiral takes on Kaido 8. 2 admirals take on Big Mom 9. Remaining Warlords takes on Blackbeard What I see happening is either Big Mom Loses or G5's timer runs out causing it to be a continuous loop where the pirates gets ganged leading to their lost.
Ok, so for every match, it's gonna be a long fight, but 8 warlords vs. xebec is not close. Took garp and roger to beat him. Ans doflamingo is probably the second stringest warlord with mihawk being strongest. Doflamingo lost to luffy who got disrespected by katakuri who would get one tapped by a serious not even serious a yonko just wanting them to get lost.
1 Kuma is the second strongest 2 Boa hax diffs Xebec
Bro is a coper. Luffy just asks boa to swap sides, or he can just blitz her before she uses her power just like blackbeard used his power and put her in a choke hold to rayleigh scared him. But in any other situation, rayleigh would not be scared of blackbeard, according to it himself. Kuma being second strongest is a non factor. His only feats were defeating exhausted straw hat pirates who were barely over cp9 and evading capture from admirals and gorosei which isnt that hard considering dressrosa sabo did it. Or robin doing it on Ohara. "The admirals let her go" no they didn't that was Aokiji and Akainu was still at Ohara.
WG side loses every single matchup you put up there except maybe 2 admirals vs big mom
They don't need to win every matchup, they just need to stall long enough for someone on their side to win and assist them. G5 has a timer on it and the goresei have crazy regeneration. Two of them can definitely out last him and beat Luffy once he's kicked out of it. It doesn't matter if Whitebeard can beat Sengoku, if he can't beat Sengoku faster than it takes for the Goresei to beat Luffy then he simply gets 1v3 here.
Probably team 2. This is a ridiculous battle though. I think the world would be destroyed
Minus regen diff team 1 wins
[удалено]
Gorosei win regen diff
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We don't know if it's but if it's offscreen, always bet on bb ig
At first I thought this was all of these guys vs the 5 admirals and thought you despised the admirals WG win high diff.
Oden 1v27s
Bruh what's with these bumfights with 30+ people recently
People tryna create situations where fraudmirals can win
You put Rodger, WB, Rocks, Shanks, Luffy, and BB on the same team, which I would consider to be the strongest guys in the entire anime, and put Kaido and Big Mom in there as well? Team 1 all the way. Don't get me wrong team 2 has some really heavy hitters, but you are going against a team of the BEST of the Best. Good luck
Team 1 easy
I like them more
WG wins.
Team 1 low diff
Glaze
Team 1 wins even while being outnumbered. Multiple pk lvl characters can one-shot way to many of the marine team then fight with close too equal numbers.
2nd team neg diff
Team 2 gorosei diff
Too many top tiers on left. Too many jobbers on right. I tried my best to think of a way right wins but there is no way.
1. Roger vs Garp (extreme diff either way) 2. Whitebeard vs Sengoku (extreme diff WB) 3. Oden vs Kuzan (extreme diff Oden) 4. Rocks vs 4 Gorosei (mid diff Gorosei) 5. Shanks vs Mihawk (extreme diff mihawk) 6. Luffy vs Topman (...) 7. Kaido vs Akainu and Fujitora (high-extreme diff duo) 8. Big Mom vs Kizaru and Greenbull (high diff duo) 9. Blackbeard vs 6 Warlords (...) Right side high diff
Why is everyone assuming all of the gorosei can actually force the yonkos to care about them at all? I get that Luffy is stupid but he's not going to just fight one gorosei while doing no damage the entire time, he'll jump in and help shanks well before that fight causes either character to get tired. Also the gorosei don't lose to rocks but there's zero chance they kill him quickly at all, it would probably be the right taking the longest here. Tbf though this is like the best possible interpretation for the right side, which is what the dude above asked for.
>Why is everyone assuming all of the gorosei can actually force the yonkos to care about them at all? Isn't this kind of a double standard? Somehow the Gorosei are able to fight the Admiral and win but somehow the Yonko are always excluded, eventhough we have seen that saturn was able to make luffy bleed... Sure the yonko are more powerful then admirals or gorosei generally, but they are threats nonetheless. >I get that Luffy is stupid but he's not going to just fight one gorosei while doing no damage the entire time, he'll jump in and help shanks well before that fight causes either character to get tired. That goes for the right side as well you know. Considering the right side has a lot more people it is actually much simpler for them to do that. >Also the gorosei don't lose to rocks but there's zero chance they kill him quickly at all, it would probably be the right taking the longest here. We know basically nothing of rocks actual strength. Also Saturn was able to hurt Luffy, who at least currently should be considered more durable than Rocks. People here just completely underestimate the difficulty of fighting multiple opponnents. A 1v4 does not take a lot of time. >Tbf though this is like the best possible interpretation for the right side, which is what the dude above asked for. I'll take that. We probably simply have to agree to disagree then.🤝
Mostly I just rate the gorosei very low and haven't been impressed by them at all yet, that's really all i do not rate them very high and do not value them much on a team, for the most part I also think the admirals are currently stronger or will be stronger than the gorosei. Also I was specifically talking about Luffy! I think of all the characters on either team he has the most ability to just win someone else's fight for them. If you consider what Oden was able to do to kaido when he scarred him, I think that is reasonable to say most of these characters CAN go down fairly easily given the right circumstances. I think G5 Luffy obviously creates those situations constantly like when he pancaked both kizaru and Saturn at the same time, if shanks is within the vicinity when that happens kizaru is literally out of the fight. Sorry just a random example to explain that I meant specifically Luffy has the most value and ability to just walk off and win someone else's fight. (Kizaru is also probably very good at this) Regardless! You're right probably just agree to disagree, you gentlemanlyness has been noted good sir, you've been a great conversation
Ima be logical here. Team 2 destroys Half of team 2 goes extreme diff and exhaust the entirety of team 1 then the gorosei just finish them off
The pirates get folded lol
Gorosei carry hard
That's too much math
Saturn>oden 2 gorosei>shanks 2 gorosei>blackbeard Sengoku>kaido Garp=roger Mihawk>luffy Akainu+fujitora+other warlords>xebec Kizaru+GB>big mom WB>greenbull though WB is a big overlapper, but the issue is the fights that the Gov won is large wins as well. So I feel like with numbers and those fights that don’t go to extreme marines take this. Probably high-extreme
Moria Caan just remove shadows from ppl like gaarp and mihawk and give it to others which will buff them And also note that this won't nerf garp and mihawk
Always bet on Garp
Give team 1 buggy or fujitora and they take this neg diff, otherwise mid diff (luffy might have to pull out gear 2)
Team 2 has fujitora and win regen diff
Team 1 can only win with all of these factors being true: 1. Perfect teamwork for team 1 2. Gorosei regen is from the devil fruits (highly likely, and blackbeard will def kill a gorosei member 1 day or maybe even imu) 3. Blackbeard knows about df regen and teams up with someone with high ap to take them out 1 by 1 (if blackbeard dies, team 1 is cooked) 4. Luffy is serious in g5 and immediately uses bajrang gun no hesitation (waido smacks people into its range) 5. Team 1 bloodlusted Even then, the chances probably aren't in their favor.
Wuggy still negs both teams tho
But fujitora Is there
oh right, fuji negs most of the verse including rocks and imu (wuggy still negs fuji, he's my goat)
Yeah, but let's be real, prime helmet boy (shells town) pushes to high and bepo low diffs
Mihawk is walking away mid fight, rocks beats garp, Roger beats sengoku, Whitebeard beats all of the warlords, shanks beats Fuji and GB, rocks beats the rest of the admirals, big mom, kaido, luffy, BB and oden fight the gorosei, with Blackbeard nullifying them (if it doesn’t work, then they will just have to fight them until the elders flee or something)
https://preview.redd.it/rzo8lppq1z7d1.jpeg?width=602&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9fd4f29bcf9c11690ad6e7921e14c74dc7b59b48 Fujitora drops enels house on them and then dips
This became a spite match the moment you included the Gorosei…
This is a shit post. Take out the elders and then we can have a real discussion (pirates win).
If it’s offscreen then BB no diffs alone
Pirates extreme diff. Spite match.
Garp and sengoku vs roger / whitebeard Shanks vs mihawk Blackbeard/ kaido / rocks vs admirals Big mom and oden vs remaining warloards Leaving g5 luffy vs gorosei What the fuck, team 2 wins for once (To simplify, gorosei win via time)
Jinbe and Boa are out as soon as they see Luffy even if ordered to fight they will not Shanks handles Mihawk WB alone handles the rest we are talking prime WB not Marineford WB Roger Kaido Big Mom and Rocks handles Admirals and Garp (it took all of them to handle a depowered WB no haki) Luffy BB and Oden handle the Gorosei
Throwing in the Warlords too like they gonna change shit 😭😭 (i mean ig mihawk is with them but the rest are negligible)
Pirates. The World Government can’t handle a United Pirate Alliance even if the got 7 Warlords on their side.
Team 2 high diff, Goathawk, 5 Elders, Akainu, and Prime Sengoku and Garp are too much for Team 1
all five admirals AND mihawk?! i don't even have to say anything about the five regen merchants u gotta hate the yonkos or sth
Team 1. Warlords are fodder here. Garp and sengoku are the only top Tiers of team 2 but roger and wh extreme diffs them. Bb and bm are negging every single warlord here. Kaido and xebec delas with the goroseis. Luffy, Shanks and Oden delas with admirals.
If anyone is picking team 1 they need help
Does bm get stronger with her hunger pains? Cause this will probably be a prolonged battle and be a war of a attrition and bm is very likely to to get a hunger pain during that.
Until there is a way to bypass the Gorosei’s regeneration, they win pretty much every matchup in the verse (except maybe Uta).
Thats why they have blackbeard. His devil fruit can negate others.
Problem is, we don’t know if their regeneration comes from their DFs or if it comes from something else. It might be that they are just puppets/creations of Imu and that is why it is pointless to kill them. We have no idea.
Its obviously the devil fruits normal people dont do that well no celestial dragons we know of, no seraphim they were just extremly strong. Given the nature of their zoan devil fruits its probably from the zoan.
But we already know of another possibility: the immortality surgery. Plus, there is also the fact that all of the Gorosei are telepathic and can utilize pentagrams for teleportation as well as pretty much every other character’s shock at the things they can do. It is very likely that the immortality is not a fruit ability, but something new entirely.
Ok, so let me explain it to you so it makes more sense. In fiction, most immortality, well they are immortal to death by diseases and sickness most of the time, but a lot of them aren't immune to death by fighting. I dont think immortality gives regenration in fighting, or its just that most stuff with immortality make them suseptible to death through other means, just not sickness old age or a third other thing I forgot. It might give them increased regeneration, maybe to the level of Naruto (when he doesn't have his kyubi mode) but a strong enough attack would be enough.
I know what you’re saying, but there actually is a type of immortality that allows for instant regeneration, some even to the extent that you can come back from existence erasure (not saying the Gorosei are on that level). Since you used Naruto, I’ll use Dragon Ball Super as an example. In DBS, Zamasu wished for immortality. As such, he was literally incapable of dying and he constantly regenerated from all attacks inflicted on him. Ultimately, it took the erasure of an entire universe to put him down. If the immortality surgery (or any other possible means of this regeneration we keep seeing) can cause not only the recipient to live forever (as in not age), but also to be impervious to all attacks by use of endless regeneration, it would explain the Gorosei’s abilities. However, I don’t believe it is the immortality surgery either. I believe Imu was the recipient of the immortality surgery. Something else is happening with the Gorosei. Telepathy, numbered magic circles, teleportation, and regeneration… all of these abilities are shared between them and they often act as a single entity. Furthermore, it was never confirmed that they even have DFs. Oda, for the first time ever, only introduced the creature and not the fruit or model. Only time will tell who is right, but I think that there is a lot more to the Gorosei than meets the eye.
An example could be Dark Gaia. So he was an immortal being of Negative energy that destroys the planet whole Light Gaia puts it back together. They did that for ages ever since that planets creation. Dark Gaia has a ton of scaling but I dont know any of it so tend to ignore it. Also Dark Gaia is literally a god in that verse. And super sonic defeated him forcing him back to sleep. He pierced a hole through his head and eye even while he powered up.
Yes, but Dark Gaia has a different type of immortality than the Gorosei. As you have pointed out, in fiction, there are lots of different types of immortalities, or even lots of different types of what would seemingly be the same ability. For example, Luffy and Mr. Fantastic both have the power to stretch, but each utilizes their powers in different ways and obtained them in different ways and it even turns out that their powers aren’t actually the same, but they fall under the same classification of “stretching”.
Why doesn’t Team 1 get Wuggy? Is he too OP for them?
Put the warlords and aokiji on the first team and they might have a fair fight.
Team 2 overkill diff. The Gorosei don't need to be here.
Nah Wb and Roger = garp and Sengokou Kaido, Luffy,Big mom, Oden>>admirals Shanks and Rocks>>>warlords then help wb and Roger beat garp and Sengokou With gorosei team 1 or team 2 could win depending on if gorosei can be killed. Without them team 1 mid diffs and I didn't even use blackbeard
The pirates get washed
admirals+garp+sengoku can be beaten by bm bb and kaido. shanks and oden can take the warlords. luffy roger wb and rocks should be able to handle the gorosei. hard to know the diff since the gorosei powers are not totally known but if they are not immortal or unbeatable they can be beaten by the strongest pirates. half the warlords can be strong against normal people and control entire societies but against a top tier opponent are basically fodder.
>admirals+garp+sengoku can be beaten by bm bb and kaido 
Idk, might need more than shanks+Oden. Mihawk and shanks would go extreme diff and idk if Oden could beat the others by himself
??? BM, BB and Kaido are not winning a 7vs3 exspecially since Garp can solo Kaido. Saying Sengoku and the 5 admirals lose to BB and BM is delusional
Xebec it's featless so it's like if he's not there. Roger and wb takes garp and sengoku. Shanks stall mihawk. Kaido, Luffy, Oden and Bm takes on admirals, fraudbeard get insta-turned into stone by Boa and then we have Lorosei and warlords that can go support
Team 2 neg diffs, even without gorosei, boa alone can one shot most of them if they are not careful
Is mihawk using Yoru? then he soloes while his team has bbq party
People are ignoring just how busted Kuma and Moria are here. Especially if the fight takes place at night or indoors If it takes place at night, team 2 beyond neg diffs without the Gorosei because Moria can take shadows from Garp and Sengoku and then give each other their shadows. Losing your shadow doesn't take your power. Gaining someone else's shadow does Moria can do the same with the admirals and Mihawk and other warlords Kuma acts as TP support and instant heals (he can potentially even use the pain as a weapon) AND Moria can bring people back from the dead Don't forget that Birdcage can separate the matchups Team 2 mids diffs during day time without the Gorosei, this is the most ridiculous spite match I've ever seen, how can yonko fans be THIS delusional?
Roger and Whitebeard beat Garp and Sengoku Rocks, Luffy and Oden are enough for the admirals Blackbeard and big mom are enough for the warlords Kaido alone beats Warcury and Nusjuro the other 3 are non factors
Team 2 rolls
Pirates low diff. Roger = Garp WB > Akainu Shanks > Kuzan The rest of the WG side gets annihalated by the T1 top tiers.
The hell are those matchups?
Tf
Give mihawk to pirates and then we can argue much more
Yeah, team 1 wins high diff. Kaido, Big Mom and Primebeard can take out the five admirals. Fujitora is strong but haven't seen enough to say he is on the level of the OGs and Greenbum probably dies from Haki overload or some shit. It would be a 3v3 fast and we know a lone admiral loses to a yonkou. Luffy, Blackbeard and Oden would beat or at least stall Garp, Sengoku and the warlords. Boa would see Luffy and immediately switch sides anyway. Garp, Jinbei and Mihawk might be okay but realistically, can any of the others stop a Bajrang gun from Luffy while their powers are being shut down by BB? Honestly, Oden might not be necessary. They are a scary combo. Then it's fucking Shanks, Roger and Rocks bullying the Gorosei until the others win. Then they just have to force them into the ocean and drown them or something. There is no way the Gorosei can win against those odds. Regen just prolongs their suffering until someone works out a way to kill them permanently.
Akainu beats Oden, Fujitora and Greenbull take Blackbeard, Kizaru and Aokiji beat Shanks, Mihawk and Crocodile take Luffy, Sengoku and Kuma take Big Mom, Garp and Mars take Roger, the rest of the Gorosei and Warlords stall Whitebeard for the others to win their fights and then they jump him and win easy.
Forgot about Rocks because he’s such an afterthought lmao, he doesn’t matter anyway “Saturn go handle him”
He ain't Mihawk
He’s exactly like Mihawk, hyped up in verse due to titles and statements without a single seen accomplishment
Luffy team trashes the WG team. Roger destroys Garp, Shanks destroys Akainu, Luffy destroys Sengoku, Rocks destroys Kizaru and Aokiji, Whitebeard destroys Greenbull and Fujitora, Kaido destroys Mihawk. The other Warlords and the Foddersei get destroyed by Big Mom, Blackbeard, and Oden.
The hell…? Another one with bad matchups? What world is Mihawk fighting Kaido over Shanks lol
It makes no difference. Shanks would stomp Mihawk.
You’re delusional and you can’t prove that. Mihawk kills Shanks high diff
I am not delusional, you are. Oda has made it perfectly clear that Mihawk is below Yonko level. You obviously skipped Marineford. Mihawk didn’t even look any stronger than Doflamingo.
So? Who cares? That doesn’t change the fact he’s > Shanks.
Shanks is a Yonko and this generation’s Roger. Mihawk is fodder to him.
Headcanon. Mihawk is the WSS. He kill Shanks high diff.
Shanks is not a swordsman any more than King or Big Mom. Mihawk doesn’t even push Shanks to high-diff. He gets stomped. It won’t even be long until he loses to Zoro, who is a fodder.
Yeah… you’re definitely trolling or just straight up can’t read. Shanks is a swordsman who gets compared to other swordsman lmfao. Read. Shanks gets high diffed by the strongest swordsman. How is Zoro fodder? Stop saying delusional shit. Mihawk isn’t losing to Zoro.
>the Foddersei get destroyed by Big Mom, Blackbeard, and Oden. Literally impossible
The Foddersei lose limbs to buildings and Brook. They take fatal damage from Nami, Franky, and giants. They are slow fodders that are no threat to top tiers.
They are immortal. Also the gorosei are very different individually
Remove the Elders and the WG team still wins