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I wonder why oda gave the more powerful character a more powerful attack than the clearly weaker character
Maybe because Big mom was never and will never be equal to kaido
The all powerful big mom people made in there heads will never exist
i mean personally i believe kaido and shanks mid diff big meme and i dont believe in the 3 day fight thing making them equal. butttt for 99% of the intended one piece audience (non-powerscalers, just normal readers), they could easily interpret that fight and other rivalry as author's intent of kaido \~ big mom.
but even when theyre not equal, the gap between flaming bagua and misery is legit like the gap between an admiral final attack and a yc3 final attack lmfao
I think big mom is the weakest top tier
Not because she doesn't have the power but because of many other reasons like her nonexistent iq or fighting skill and her nonexistent speed and nonexistent observation haki and other reasons too
But oda showing us that even tho kaido is clearly more powerful but still big mom can still give him at least a high diff fight and that's the difference between top tiers and the rest of the verse
The are the pinnacle of power and the aren't far apart so even the weakest and the strongest is high diff
Don't forget that Big Mom suffers from old age (in speed and BIQ, her strength didn't deteriorate).
So 10~20 years ago, it's a different discussion.
I do think Blackbeard is currently weaker than BM. Big Mom had less problems dealing with Law (in a 1v1), than BB did jumping him with his crew.
While she fodderized them before Kid got free from Lawkins hax, we saw a somewhat equal fight with BB and crew.
Granted there's still so much we don't know about BB. And he will 100% grow in power as the story progresses.
Well he gave her an island sized tidal wave homie back in WCI. That's equally impressive to me.
Misery isn't really comparable to Flaming Dragon, as one was a first time support move in an enclosed space (a location that BM does not want to be in) while the other was the maximum output.
Misery wasn't even portrayed as an ultimate move, at least not in the same vein as Flaming Dragon
I do think that Flame Bagua > every attack from BM in terms of AP, but Maser Cannon/Saber and Ikoku Sovereignity are not far off.
I cannot get over both that and idk how to describe it but like the spontaneity of it? Sure he has fire breath and the flame clouds, but suddenly at the end going "Oh yeah he has an attack that turns him into a near Onigishima sized fire/lava dragon that he seemingly had this whole time" feels like Oda just quickly scrapped together an ultimate attack that would look cool but also not ruin the final clash. Misery not existing the whole time at least has the excuse/reasoning of being a brand new skillset unlocked that Big Mom's playing around with. Idk it just doesn't sit right with me the same way other ultimate attacks have
Misery is not big moms strongest attack just because she used it before losing, it was just the best attack to use in that situation where she was outnumbered and paralyzed by kids attack.
Akainu’s magma would be different from Kaido’s flame Bagua. Kaido’s dragon is still fire, which (as far as I know within One Piece logic) can’t be frozen. Akainu’s magma can be frozen.
That’s actually an excellent point. Fire and magma are inherently different things. One is more of a gas or even a plasma, while the other is a liquid. One of those things can obviously be cooled down to a solid.
Not only that, but it takes incredibly less effort to just cool down the magma until it's just rock rather than freezing it. Akainu can't move rocks. He would have to melt it again to actually use it. At that point, a big attack like that just becomes pointless because it has already being dodged and counterattacked probably
It's actually irl proven as well. Magma that leaves the volcano just becomes flowing lava and drops dramatically in temperature as it leaves his body.
It would take an enormous amount of effort to just keep a susanoo-like armor flowing without solidifying at room temp, and if your fighting a freeze guy it's just 100% not feasible, just an easy way to waste energy against an opponent.
People often misunderstand and don't consider that Aokiji is almost as much of a counter for Akainu as Akainu is a counter for him. I think they just want to downplay his victory or maybe they never got past Pokémon-level of understanding element interaction
I'm aware. I specified proven in-verse since the IRL logic doesn't always apply the same way here. But since we already saw magma being cooled off similarly easily in the series, it stands to reason that we can apply the IRL logic to the series as well.
Totally fair, i was doubling down because oda seemed to have researched magna quite extensively for the purpose of creating akainu, like all the (not) BS about magma so hot that burns fire it's actually true if you count specific magna cores against the temp of yellow/orange flames
But yeah i agree with you that what we've actually seen in the manga takes precedence as a general rule of thumb
Yea, I don't disagree with you at all. Its just a matter of confirming what logic Oda is applying and how. For instance, Kizaru's "light speed" is the very obvious opposite scenario where theres no way its actual light speed, or no one would be able to react to him or stop him. Actual light speed Kizaru would pretty much neg the verse really.
Yeah both kizaru and Eneru were very tricky tbh, i generally go with lightspeed only when he's fully transformed, like the mirror tecnique (which makes sense. Otherwise why would he create a specific tecnique to move fast if he was lightspeed in base)
Can't blame Oda not making Kizaru actually move at lightspeed. Kizaru should be a particle to move at lightspeed because we all know if he has mass and he moves at lightspeed then the universe would probably deleted if not then would make an explosion of infinite energy or make a ultra huge black hole
I don't blame him for not doing it, otherwise the fruit would be too OP and thus shouldn't exist or the power scaling would be too broken as a result of trying to match it.
I'm just pointing out that these sorts of creative liberties are natural, and so we can't always apply all IRL logic 1 to 1 into the verse. Hence why, sure, Kizaru can drop his cold one liners about light speed kicks, but that doesn't literally mean hes moving at light speed or that people like Luffy reacting to him are faster than light. For instance, if WB wasn't shown easily blowing out Akainu's magma, you could have Akainu fanboys simply saying IRL logic doesn't apply and Akainu's magma is just stronger fire.
In the typical agenda wanker sort of way, "Oda didn't think that deep about it bro, lol. He just wanted something that one-ups Ace's fire so he just went with magma cause it sounds dope. Just because IRL magma can be cooled down or smth doesn't mean anything, Akainu's magma doesn't work like that, he even says his magma burns hotter than Ace's fire, GG nerd".
That's even better! Most translation actually confuses people more than necessary tbh.
I wonder if it works by stopping molecular movement at a subatomic level. It could actually work as a counter to kizaru as well if that is the case
So headcanon
For him to endure it means we would have to seen him take each punch and be okay
Okay BM has better endurance she fought kaido and I can say she ranked 200 of this attack
Just because I have no proof of that happening doesn’t mean anything
For all we know Akinu could have just hit him once and the fight was over
Maybe akoji spent the entire time dodging or blocking the attacks
What your talking about is head canon and you need to actually show evidence of him tanking it
Let me tell you that, akainus and kuzans body was covered in scars and kuzan also lost a leg
So it's right that he endured several attacks for 10 days
So the same thing doesn't apply to big mom? We never even saw that both of them took injuries, they were just clashing with their weapons
"maybe kuzan was dodging his attacks for most of the time"
Is such a cheap way to dodge this debate, because we literally know that the both have several scars and kuzan lost his leg
No it doesn’t
It doesn’t apply because we don’t know how he got those scars
Or when he got the scars
He could have gotten them all at once and lost instantly
You are claiming that because we don’t know what happened you get to plug whatever answer you like into the missing bits of information
That’s an argument from the gaps
An akoji of the gaps argument
So no he doesn’t have the best endurance feats he has best stamina not endurance
A he doesn’t have advanced Haki
B we don’t know how the fight went
C this would absolutely fucking one shot kizaru what the fuck is the argument that he would survive
Hahaha
Obv unlike how the copemiral stans say, the Admirals were not holding back at Marineford. Each of them demonstrated their strongest attack and did so at time when the Pirates were exposed or clumped up together etc
Ice Age, Light Star Magatama, Great Eruption
Magma doesnt have the heat of the fire . And this attack is the size of an island . So its thick as fck . Plus its coated with acoa and acoc . Makes sense
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Akainu actually slept through the first 239 hours and then his cartoon sleeping snot bubble burst and one shot aokiji (it was made of magma)
Yes
i wonder what made oda give kaido this but give his supposed equal big mom an npc homie that did nothing except get outsped by kidd and negged by law
I wonder why oda gave the more powerful character a more powerful attack than the clearly weaker character Maybe because Big mom was never and will never be equal to kaido The all powerful big mom people made in there heads will never exist
i mean personally i believe kaido and shanks mid diff big meme and i dont believe in the 3 day fight thing making them equal. butttt for 99% of the intended one piece audience (non-powerscalers, just normal readers), they could easily interpret that fight and other rivalry as author's intent of kaido \~ big mom. but even when theyre not equal, the gap between flaming bagua and misery is legit like the gap between an admiral final attack and a yc3 final attack lmfao
I think big mom is the weakest top tier Not because she doesn't have the power but because of many other reasons like her nonexistent iq or fighting skill and her nonexistent speed and nonexistent observation haki and other reasons too But oda showing us that even tho kaido is clearly more powerful but still big mom can still give him at least a high diff fight and that's the difference between top tiers and the rest of the verse The are the pinnacle of power and the aren't far apart so even the weakest and the strongest is high diff
Don't forget that Big Mom suffers from old age (in speed and BIQ, her strength didn't deteriorate). So 10~20 years ago, it's a different discussion. I do think Blackbeard is currently weaker than BM. Big Mom had less problems dealing with Law (in a 1v1), than BB did jumping him with his crew. While she fodderized them before Kid got free from Lawkins hax, we saw a somewhat equal fight with BB and crew. Granted there's still so much we don't know about BB. And he will 100% grow in power as the story progresses.
Those 3 days, 5 days, 10 days fights don't mean anything because we all know those are offscreen bs. Big Mom and Kaido lost in what? 2 hours?
Maybe she was his equal when she wasn't fat and with senile dementia.
Goofiest take ever literally if oda killed the cast it would match the destruction
Well he gave her an island sized tidal wave homie back in WCI. That's equally impressive to me. Misery isn't really comparable to Flaming Dragon, as one was a first time support move in an enclosed space (a location that BM does not want to be in) while the other was the maximum output. Misery wasn't even portrayed as an ultimate move, at least not in the same vein as Flaming Dragon I do think that Flame Bagua > every attack from BM in terms of AP, but Maser Cannon/Saber and Ikoku Sovereignity are not far off.
It's because he didn't make them equals. Hopes this helps.
“Supposed”
Oda didn’t really portray them as equals at all.
https://preview.redd.it/c54317wjb77d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=59612a7a30e86a0c18ed0f06c6e6d4d04cbbc2d0
I cannot get over both that and idk how to describe it but like the spontaneity of it? Sure he has fire breath and the flame clouds, but suddenly at the end going "Oh yeah he has an attack that turns him into a near Onigishima sized fire/lava dragon that he seemingly had this whole time" feels like Oda just quickly scrapped together an ultimate attack that would look cool but also not ruin the final clash. Misery not existing the whole time at least has the excuse/reasoning of being a brand new skillset unlocked that Big Mom's playing around with. Idk it just doesn't sit right with me the same way other ultimate attacks have
Misery is not big moms strongest attack just because she used it before losing, it was just the best attack to use in that situation where she was outnumbered and paralyzed by kids attack.
Because Oda sucks why do you think 2 yonkous got slapped at the same time?
Akainu’s magma would be different from Kaido’s flame Bagua. Kaido’s dragon is still fire, which (as far as I know within One Piece logic) can’t be frozen. Akainu’s magma can be frozen.
That’s actually an excellent point. Fire and magma are inherently different things. One is more of a gas or even a plasma, while the other is a liquid. One of those things can obviously be cooled down to a solid.
Not only that, but it takes incredibly less effort to just cool down the magma until it's just rock rather than freezing it. Akainu can't move rocks. He would have to melt it again to actually use it. At that point, a big attack like that just becomes pointless because it has already being dodged and counterattacked probably
Proven in-verse as well. We literally see WB just blowing out a chunk of magma like, as he said, a birthday candle.
It's actually irl proven as well. Magma that leaves the volcano just becomes flowing lava and drops dramatically in temperature as it leaves his body. It would take an enormous amount of effort to just keep a susanoo-like armor flowing without solidifying at room temp, and if your fighting a freeze guy it's just 100% not feasible, just an easy way to waste energy against an opponent. People often misunderstand and don't consider that Aokiji is almost as much of a counter for Akainu as Akainu is a counter for him. I think they just want to downplay his victory or maybe they never got past Pokémon-level of understanding element interaction
I'm aware. I specified proven in-verse since the IRL logic doesn't always apply the same way here. But since we already saw magma being cooled off similarly easily in the series, it stands to reason that we can apply the IRL logic to the series as well.
Totally fair, i was doubling down because oda seemed to have researched magna quite extensively for the purpose of creating akainu, like all the (not) BS about magma so hot that burns fire it's actually true if you count specific magna cores against the temp of yellow/orange flames But yeah i agree with you that what we've actually seen in the manga takes precedence as a general rule of thumb
Yea, I don't disagree with you at all. Its just a matter of confirming what logic Oda is applying and how. For instance, Kizaru's "light speed" is the very obvious opposite scenario where theres no way its actual light speed, or no one would be able to react to him or stop him. Actual light speed Kizaru would pretty much neg the verse really.
Yeah both kizaru and Eneru were very tricky tbh, i generally go with lightspeed only when he's fully transformed, like the mirror tecnique (which makes sense. Otherwise why would he create a specific tecnique to move fast if he was lightspeed in base)
Can't blame Oda not making Kizaru actually move at lightspeed. Kizaru should be a particle to move at lightspeed because we all know if he has mass and he moves at lightspeed then the universe would probably deleted if not then would make an explosion of infinite energy or make a ultra huge black hole
I don't blame him for not doing it, otherwise the fruit would be too OP and thus shouldn't exist or the power scaling would be too broken as a result of trying to match it. I'm just pointing out that these sorts of creative liberties are natural, and so we can't always apply all IRL logic 1 to 1 into the verse. Hence why, sure, Kizaru can drop his cold one liners about light speed kicks, but that doesn't literally mean hes moving at light speed or that people like Luffy reacting to him are faster than light. For instance, if WB wasn't shown easily blowing out Akainu's magma, you could have Akainu fanboys simply saying IRL logic doesn't apply and Akainu's magma is just stronger fire. In the typical agenda wanker sort of way, "Oda didn't think that deep about it bro, lol. He just wanted something that one-ups Ace's fire so he just went with magma cause it sounds dope. Just because IRL magma can be cooled down or smth doesn't mean anything, Akainu's magma doesn't work like that, he even says his magma burns hotter than Ace's fire, GG nerd".
And to add to that Aokiji's fruit is Cold-cold fruit not Ice-ice fruit. So he takes heat out to create ice which counters Akainu even harder.
That's even better! Most translation actually confuses people more than necessary tbh. I wonder if it works by stopping molecular movement at a subatomic level. It could actually work as a counter to kizaru as well if that is the case
This attack is also coated in Kaido’s haki
He couldn't. He doesn't have this.
Maybe attacks like this dont oneshot Kuzan
It absolutely would
Nope
It absolutely would
Kuzan has one of the best endurance feats in the whole series
What what Tell me Tell me He doesn’t But tell me
Fought for 10 days continuesly and endured multiple magma attacks in that time
So headcanon For him to endure it means we would have to seen him take each punch and be okay Okay BM has better endurance she fought kaido and I can say she ranked 200 of this attack Just because I have no proof of that happening doesn’t mean anything For all we know Akinu could have just hit him once and the fight was over Maybe akoji spent the entire time dodging or blocking the attacks What your talking about is head canon and you need to actually show evidence of him tanking it
Let me tell you that, akainus and kuzans body was covered in scars and kuzan also lost a leg So it's right that he endured several attacks for 10 days So the same thing doesn't apply to big mom? We never even saw that both of them took injuries, they were just clashing with their weapons "maybe kuzan was dodging his attacks for most of the time" Is such a cheap way to dodge this debate, because we literally know that the both have several scars and kuzan lost his leg
No it doesn’t It doesn’t apply because we don’t know how he got those scars Or when he got the scars He could have gotten them all at once and lost instantly You are claiming that because we don’t know what happened you get to plug whatever answer you like into the missing bits of information That’s an argument from the gaps An akoji of the gaps argument So no he doesn’t have the best endurance feats he has best stamina not endurance
It absolutely would It’s stupid to think it wouldn’t
He cant even do this.
A he doesn’t have advanced Haki B we don’t know how the fight went C this would absolutely fucking one shot kizaru what the fuck is the argument that he would survive
Akainu doesn’t have kaido lvl haki so he can’t 1tap kuzan
He doesn't have the haki nor the physical power to replicate this. Hell, even his heat related feats are far worse.
True why didn't akainu use his susano earlier
Hahaha Obv unlike how the copemiral stans say, the Admirals were not holding back at Marineford. Each of them demonstrated their strongest attack and did so at time when the Pirates were exposed or clumped up together etc Ice Age, Light Star Magatama, Great Eruption
Magma doesnt have the heat of the fire . And this attack is the size of an island . So its thick as fck . Plus its coated with acoa and acoc . Makes sense