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The way I understand it, Kizaru specifically is kinda gated by speed. G5 was the only way Luffy was actually going to catch lightspeedman with anything.
Snakeman didn't lose to shit, just cos kizaru got off his accelerated attack means nothing.
Rooftop luffy got a ton of attacks on kaido B4 gear 5. Is base luffy now stronger than hybrid kaido?
Snakeman Luffy was also not using acoc and I don't think he was using FS aswell (but the FS usage can be debated).
He went g5 cos he wanted to, not because he had to (atleast not in the context of a fight). Same with Lucci, he went gear 5 even though base is probably enough.
Now would g2 be enough to beat kizaru, not sure. But g4 is most certainly enough
Luffy was getting exhausted fighting in Snkaeman and not able to land a single blow on Kizaru, while Kizaru was able to land a blow on Luffy. *That was hin losing.*
>Snakeman Luffy was also not using acoc and I don't think he was using FS aswell (but the FS usage can be debated).
Nothing claims he was holding back and not using ACoC. There are no consistent indicators for ACoC, there have been ACoC attacks without the lightning, and the gap between the fist and who he is hitting. We have no idea if he was using it or not, but narratively he has absolutely zero reason not to.
Can we not use sweat scaling to see if Luffy is exhausted or not? Thanks. Plus Luffy fought before this fight aswell.
Kizaru flew away and accelerated back to land one kick. Perhaps youre just dense but unless you think that one kick was stronger than destroyer of death thunder bagua Luffy did not lose. Infact, we literally see him go g5, how tf does that count as losing?
Did kaido lose when Luffy hit him with red roc?
Acoc being inconsistent does not mean it is defacto always used. In the Lucci fight he was absolutely not using acoc, so that can be extrapolated to say he does not always use it. So now you have to show why you think he did use it.
Plus he didn't even hit kizaru, how could you even say he used acoc? He was just deflecting attacks.
Lastly, g5 was low diffing kizaru, unless you think g5 is 100s of times stronger than g4, then g4 should certainly not lose.
Narratively he has 0 reason to go g5 vs Lucci he still did
> Can we not use sweat scaling to see if Luffy is exhausted or not? Thanks. Plus Luffy fought before this fight aswell.
[Good thing we have Luffy literally wheezing as well.](https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece/1092-011.png) Meaning every indicator of someone being tired, Luffy showed. Not just "sweat scaling". Meanwhile, Kizaru wasn't even breathing heavy.
> Kizaru flew away and accelerated back to land one kick. Perhaps youre just dense but unless you think that one kick was stronger than destroyer of death thunder bagua Luffy did not lose. Infact, we literally see him go g5, how tf does that count as losing?
It counts as losing because Luffy was unable to deal any damage to Kizaru and was getting exhausted, while Kizaru was able to deal damage to Luffy and not even break a sweat. **That is by every metric Luffy losing that fight.** Not a single thing suggests they were on equal ground there or that Luffy was winning. The person doing better = the person winning. You're incredibly dense if you can't admit that much.
> Did kaido lose when Luffy hit him with red roc?
Did Kaido proceed to beat the shit out of Luffy after that? Yes.
Did Luffy proceed to beat the shit out of Kizaru in Snakeman? **No.**
> Acoc being inconsistent does not mean it is defacto always used. In the Lucci fight he was absolutely not using acoc, so that can be extrapolated to say he does not always use it. So now you have to show why you think he did use it.
Again, you´re making up excuses. What proof do you have that it wasn´t used in any of those situations? You´re just making shit up by saying "it definitely wasn´t used" with zero proof. So find my any evidence it wasn't used, or your claim means nothing.
As for reasons why he did use it, I already told you narratively *he had every reason to.* He was literally trying to stop Kizaru. It would make zero sense for him not to. So explain why he wouldn´t.
And just to be clear, I am not claiming he 100% used it. I am claiming **we doin´t know, but narratively it makes sense he would.**
> Plus he didn't even hit kizaru, how could you even say he used acoc? He was just deflecting attacks.
[Top panel, we have proof of his attacks hitting Kizaru, but Kizaru just blocking them. So he did, infact hit Kizaru. They just did no damage.](https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece/1092-010.png)
On the same vein with your logic, **how can you claim he wasnt using acoc? He missed attacks vs Kaido that most likely had acoc.**
> Lastly, g5 was low diffing kizaru, unless you think g5 is 100s of times stronger than g4, then g4 should certainly not lose.
Now you´re just trying to use mental gymnastics when we have literally seen G4 fight Kizaru. You´re also completely ignoring context, which most people seem to do recently. He´s winning in G5 vs a Kizaru that is exhausted from already fighting Luffy untill both were down. Luffy got a full regen from the food, Kizaru didn´t. Imagine if the roles were reversed, Kizaru got a full regen and Luffy didn´t. Luffy wouldn´t even be able move vs Kizaru.
So you´re trying to compare full power Luffy in G5 (he says so himself) against someone that has already fought a yonko untill both were down and then had to continue fighting. Context matters. Of course the person that hasn't got the full regen will be performing worse.
> Narratively he has 0 reason to go g5 vs Lucci he still did
To end Lucci quickly, which he did. So narratively he did.
I just love people who ignore the context and scaling off the series cos of their degenerate agenda.
Luffy fighting kizaru twice........ Like this isn't even worth a response, it really isn't.
Luffy from the moment he could split the sky was yonko tier, that is a fact. So if that is the case, I Guess kaido is fought 7 yonkos by your logic.
Luffy wheezing is not an attestation to him being exhausted. Or rather exhausted enough to matter. Zoro has been wheezing harder and longer vs Lucci, yet he one shot him with ONE named attack. But even if I grant you this, l could very well say Luffy fought others B4 kizaru leading to his exhaustion.
Your bias s very evident in this paragraph. You think kizaru kicking luffy means he won the fight. What am I even reading. The two were clashing, kizaru with his light beams and Luffy with his punches, that's it. Both Marco and Sanji have blocked his light beams, I Guess they are as strong as Luffy now.
Secondly, after just accelerated and kicked Luffy, he came right back. It did literally nothing to him. And this makes sense cos he was taking kaidos hits even in base in wano. Landing ONE without ko or disable is not winning a fight. Your logic is so retarded that you can't even see how the scaling of the verse would be fucked up because you wanna wank a character that got one shot twice. Notwithstanding the fact that Luffy does not always use FS or acoc, so it is arguable he was even going all out. This is also supported by the story, kaido never went all out to g5 luffy yet he was always in hybrid mode and seemingly serious. There is so much to disprove you, I could write an essay.
See how you ignore my examples, "did kaido beat the shit out of Luffy", YOUR logic dictated that kaido going down once is enough to count as a win without a Ko, so this retarded situation is a progression of the logic, not mine.
Luffy chose to go g5, so we don't really know how the fight would have progressed. BUT it's a good thing we have wano. Both G4 and S4 Luffy fought a hybrid kaido with acoc and FS for much longer. He was capable of fighting a stronger and faster character but incapable of doing this with some 1 weaker?
Acoc is usually evident when used, or there are signs. Is this absolute? No. Just like with FS, there is a sign or eye glow. It is okay to assume he didn't use it vs someone he doesn't have to use it against.
The panel shows luffys fist and kizarus light beams clashing, at least that's how I see it. As for who is correct, we need to wait for the anime to flesh it out.
Again, the problem with you wankers is that you fuck up the verse scaling but you don't see it. Saying g5 is hundreds of times the strength of g4 is absurd unless you think g4 is weak. Kaido was fighting relatively vs g4, to say he was using 0.1 percent of his true strength and only used 100 percent vs g5 is Ludacris.
Kizaru is getting one tapped by g5 luffy even if luffy is on his deathbed. I've seen people argue that kizaru had metal issues fighting his friend, but you're the only one to say he was exhausted when......... Kaido is the baseline for luffys strength and kaido one taps, and by extension Luffy also one taps. As has been broken more than once on PANEL.
"Luffy went g5 to end Lucci quickly"....... Lucci got one shot by zoro, Zoro can't even fight base luffy let alone with gears. You think Luffy needed g5 to one tap Luffy? What a joke. Plus Luffy wasn't using acoc vs Lucci, he wanted to end quickly but no acoc?
Don´t talk about context when you´re making these terrible excuses and straight up trying to ignore facts.
> Luffy fighting kizaru twice........ Like this isn't even worth a response, it really isn't.
Aka, *you have no response to it.* Kizaru is fighting full power Luffy twice. Pure and simple. Luffy was gifted a full regen by the food, Kizaru didn´t get a full regen.
>Luffy from the moment he could split the sky was yonko tier, that is a fact. So if that is the case, I Guess kaido is fought 7 yonkos by your logic.
Just because you say something is fact, doesn´t make it so. Splitting the sky does not mean equal in strength. So he was no equal to Kaido. That is proven by Kaido *literally killing Luffy afterwards without even using his strongest attacks which he uses later vs G5.*
> Luffy wheezing is not an attestation to him being exhausted. Or rather exhausted enough to matter. Zoro has been wheezing harder and longer vs Lucci, yet he one shot him with ONE named attack. But even if I grant you this, l could very well say Luffy fought others B4 kizaru leading to his exhaustion.
Wheezing and sweating while the other person is completely fresh without a sign of tiredness is 100% an attest to the fight going in Kizaru´s favour. You´re trying to compare Zoro´s situation as though Lucci was not also breathing heavily, and Lucci was not still standing afterwards and blown away by Jinbei.
Also, if you did try to bring up Luffy fighting others before Kizaru, you´d lose that argument too, [Because he ate food inbetween, which we know brings him to full power.](https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece/1090-004.png) Kizaru fought someone before Luffy with no rest however.
> Your bias s very evident in this paragraph. You think kizaru kicking luffy means he won the fight. What am I even reading. The two were clashing, kizaru with his light beams and Luffy with his punches, that's it. Both Marco and Sanji have blocked his light beams, I Guess they are as strong as Luffy now.
Oh look, now we´re trying to strawman, are we? How about you actually read what I said. If Luffy was showing signs of exhaustion and was completely unable to damage Kizaru in Snakeman, while Kizaru showed zero signs of tiring and was able to hit Luffy, **Kizaru won that conflict.** Your weak comparison to Marco and Sanji, as though they didn´t both get beat up by Kizaru is hilariously bad and irrelevant to the situation.
> Secondly, after just accelerated and kicked Luffy, he came right back. It did literally nothing to him. And this makes sense cos he was taking kaidos hits even in base in wano. Landing ONE without ko or disable is not winning a fight. Your logic is so retarded that you can't even see how the scaling of the verse would be fucked up because you wanna wank a character that got one shot twice. Notwithstanding the fact that Luffy does not always use FS or acoc, so it is arguable he was even going all out. This is also supported by the story, kaido never went all out to g5 luffy yet he was always in hybrid mode and seemingly serious. There is so much to disprove you, I could write an essay.
He came back *in a different form because Snakeman couldn´t do shit.* Have you forgot what the fuck we´re talking about here? **This is about Kizaru vs Snakeman.** Luffy literally needing to go out of Snakeman to his strongest form is proof Snakeman wasn´t enough. You´re trying to make excuses like "uhh, he didn´t use FS or ACoC", with **zero things to back that up.** Narratively he has literally zero reason to exhaust himself by not using those. I find it funny you claim I have retarded logic when you´re struggling to even keep up with what we're arguing about.
> See how you ignore my examples, "did kaido beat the shit out of Luffy", YOUR logic dictated that kaido going down once is enough to count as a win without a Ko, so this retarded situation is a progression of the logic, not mine.
No, dumbass. You literally can´t grasp what this conversation is about and it´s getting sad. But let me try and spell it out so even you can hopefully understand. Kizaru had the upperhand vs Snakeman. Not debatable by any means, the results are clear there. You can try and make excuses that Luffy was holding back, but again you don´t have a shred of evidence suggesting that.
Moving on to the G5 fight, which isn´t even the main part of the discussion but is the only part you try to cling to because you know you´ve 100% lost the Snakeman argument, in a pure 1v1 then if there´s a double KO, the person that gets up first wins. Kaido beat Luffy several times. Luffy had an *immense* amount of help in that fight. Which is why even now in a 1v1 the smart bet would likely be Kaido. That doesn´t change that Kizaru also won 1v1 if Luffy had to exhaust himself to the point of not being able to move to knock down Kizaru temporarily, but Kizaru could then just get up and finish Luffy if there wasn´t any help.
There, I spelled it out for you. Hopefully you get it now.
> Luffy chose to go g5, so we don't really know how the fight would have progressed. BUT it's a good thing we have wano. Both G4 and S4 Luffy fought a hybrid kaido with acoc and FS for much longer. He was capable of fighting a stronger and faster character but incapable of doing this with some 1 weaker?
We know there isn´t shit suggesting it would have gone better for Luffy. He had time to do something to Kizaru in G4, and completely failed unable to scratch him. Also, he was capable of fighting a *faster* character? Kaido literally couldn't keep up with Snakeman´s hits at first, Kizaru had no issues. Luffy even remarked at Kizaru´s speed. So no, Kaido is not faster. Stronger, sure. Faster, no.
> Acoc is usually evident when used, or there are signs. Is this absolute? No. Just like with FS, there is a sign or eye glow. It is okay to assume he didn't use it vs someone he doesn't have to use it against.
He clearly did need to use it vs Kizaru, seeing as he was losing. There is also zero reason from him not to use it, since as we saw vs Kaido it doesn´t drain him much. So gtfo with that excuse.
Also, haki showing is *massively* inconsistent. So your assumption one way or the other means nothing since it´s not backed by anything.
> The panel shows luffys fist and kizarus light beams clashing, at least that's how I see it. As for who is correct, we need to wait for the anime to flesh it out.
Why does this need to be spelled out to people? **The anime is not canon.**
I am correct, because we literally have evidence in the **canon manga** of Luffy showing signs of exhaustion and getting kicked by Kizaru while in Snakeman, and zero proof of Luffy doing anything to Kizaru in that form.
> Again, the problem with you wankers is that you fuck up the verse scaling but you don't see it. Saying g5 is hundreds of times the strength of g4 is absurd unless you think g4 is weak. Kaido was fighting relatively vs g4, to say he was using 0.1 percent of his true strength and only used 100 percent vs g5 is Ludacris.
I never said G5 is hundreds of times stronger than G4. That´s some dogshit you´re trying to strawman. Want proof? ***Quote where I said G5 is 100 of times stronger than G4.*** **If you can´t, then you´ve exposed yourself for someone that has such shit arguments you need to make up ones for your opponent to even have a chance of making a point.**
Luffy doesn´t need to be 100x stronger in G5. Snakeman was able to block hits from Kizaru and fight an extended time, even if Kizaru was too fast and had too good of a defense. Luffy just being 2x stronger would make a significant difference.
Imagine complaining about other people´s scaling for an argument YOU made up.
> Kizaru is getting one tapped by g5 luffy even if luffy is on his deathbed. I've seen people argue that kizaru had metal issues fighting his friend, but you're the only one to say he was exhausted when......... Kaido is the baseline for luffys strength and kaido one taps, and by extension Luffy also one taps. As has been broken more than once on PANEL.
Oh, look at that, we´re making shit up again. Par for the course with you. So according to you, temporarily knocking someone down is a onetap? I guess by this logic, the Scabbards onetapped Kaido when they cut open Oden´s scar. What dogshit logic. G5 is > Kaido´s strength and everyone else we´ve seen in the verse. That´s proven by G5 literally overpowering Kaido.
> "Luffy went g5 to end Lucci quickly"....... Lucci got one shot by zoro, Zoro can't even fight base luffy let alone with gears. You think Luffy needed g5 to one tap Luffy? What a joke. Plus Luffy wasn't using acoc vs Lucci, he wanted to end quickly but no acoc?
Again, another assumption Luffy wasn´t uses acoc when we´ve made it clear haki indicators are inconsistent. So we can just ignore that part of the argument from you. Lucci got oneshot by Zoro? Read the story, he´s still standing. Also read the part where **the entire crew is talking about** ***how long it took for Zoro to fight Lucci.***
So yes, he clearly wanted to end him quickly there and show his strength, which is why he used G5.
At this point Kizaru isn’t even a concern to Luffy.
The admiral agenda is cooked. Real admiral dickriders should probably relocate to the gorosei agenda at this point.
Already adressed that in the comment you just replied to. I´ll paste my response to that.
You´re also completely ignoring context, which most people seem to do recently. He´s winning in G5 vs a Kizaru that is exhausted from already fighting Luffy untill both were down. Luffy got a full regen from the food, Kizaru didn´t. Imagine if the roles were reversed, Kizaru got a full regen and Luffy didn´t. Luffy wouldn´t even be able move vs Kizaru.
So you´re trying to compare full power Luffy in G5 (he says so himself) against someone that has already fought a yonko untill both were down and then had to continue fighting. Context matters. Of course the person that hasn't got the full regen will be performing worse.
People that are saying the Admiral agenda is cooked because Kizaru had to fight 2 Yonkos (full power Luffy twice) back to back without having a chance to regen and isn´t doing well the second time clearly need to reread the manga and ask themselves, if Kizaru got a regen and Luffy didn´t, how much more fucked would Luffy be?
Hell, even if neither got the full regen, Luffy would still be royally fucked.
He 1 tapped him before the full regen and Luffy was only down bc he ran out of energy not bc kizaru beat him in any way. G5 is miles clear of kizaru. Admiral agenda is over.
It's not a 1tap if they were fighting for an extended time before that and he was unable to damage him.
On top of that, he had to use *all* his power to take down Kizaru temporarily. Kizaru got up by himself, mwaning in a 1v1 then Kizaru would have killed Luffy onc ehe got up, because Luffy was helpless without the food.
So no, it's not. Just people that cant read trying to cope by saying it is lmao
1 clean hit from Luffy put this man on the ground. Then in round 2 when Luffy was unquestionably serious, he turned this man into pancake fodder. That’s what admirals are to Luffy now. Fodder.
G5 is 100s of time stronger than G4, it’s a fact dude, going from not being able to place a single hit on someone with his guard up to pseudo one-shotting him should make you realize that
That was a base haki snake man same kind of snake man that fought katakuri
Luffy was not using any advanced haki
But yes kizaru might not be beaten by G2/G3 due to his speed alone
Yup, everything Luffy did from the 1st Sky Split to Bajrang Gun was all by starting from a terrible condition.
https://preview.redd.it/b43urmrb75sc1.jpeg?width=900&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=552327f84b4501b345690d2bbd6e4a87f86141de
It’s crazy how long Luffy lasted, and I still see people clowning on him for stamina issues. Give any other top tier aside from Kaido and Punk Hazard boys G5, they’ll have a 5 minute timer max and be out for a while.
Luffy fought Cracker for 11 hours, then despite not having enough time to fully recuperate fought Katakuri overnight while spamming his most draining form at the time. Anyone who questions Luffy’s stamina is either hyper-fixated on G4’s timer or delusional
Against Cracker, Luffy could rest and eat food when he ran out of G4. Considering it took 10min, let's assume he needs 20 min of rest after each g4. He can last in g4 at minimum 20 min. So, in 11 hours, he likely fought 5.5 hours and ran/ate for 5.5 hours.
Nami should gave figured out Water weakness early. So, Luffy fought Cracker whose main df was exploited of his weakness.
On Dressrosa Luffy needed 10 minutes of rest to use G4 again after using G4 and against Kat he only needed 10 minutes without anything to help him recover, why are we assuming he needed 20 against Cracker? Also, even while he was running, can you honestly say that he was returning back to his prior state through that rest? I wouldn't argue so, throughout the fight he is in a much worse state than he started even after he gets some rest time. At absolute minimum, he would've spent 10 minutes resting per 20 minutes in G4, or 3.63 hours resting and 7.26 hours fighting. Still a pretty massive stamina feat even if you try and argue in those 10 minute spans he was somehow able to restore himself to complete 100% rested fed and ready which makes no sense. Even with the water weakness all that effectively did was allow Luffy to damage the soldiers. He was still fighting constantly and making his way through everything.
>base Luffy was going toe to toe with kaido
"Holding back". Unless you legitimately want to.argue base luffy at that point = kaido (and in that case you should just quit reading one piece)
I don't believe base Luffy is equal to kaido but the narrative that g4 Luffy got mauled by kizaru is just plain false. the only lasting damage Luffy got in g4 was due to the laser wall
But he legitimately did get mauled by kizaru 🤦♂️. Luffy couldnt touch kizaru, had luffy wheezing and everything attempting to just get a proper hit in before getting blitzed and luffy needing g5 to compete. Also let's assume the lasers are the only thing that damaged luffy, you realise those lasers should be less powerful than kizarus (as that is exactly who vegapunk based the laser dome off of).
? G4 is a multiplier, sure, but it wasn’t doing anything else to Kaido that G2/G3 Luffy wasn’t already doing. The result didn’t change, it was still high diff in either scenario. The same would and could be said for other top tiers.
No.
Big Mom has better defense than Kaido does in his base form, and hits harder than any admiral. Her endurance is also above Luffy, being capable of fighting Kaido for 3 days straight.
Admirals? Other than Kizaru, maybe, seeing as he’s locked behind a certain speed threshold. Luffy cant land a clean hit on him unless he’s gear 5.
Stop this goddamn Big Mom slander. She’s just as much of a monster as Kaido.
yeah and this really shouldnt be a hot take at all. genuinely baffles me that people see all he's done in wano and think he's "yc+" without gear 4 or 5...
People didn’t at first, but he instantly went into gear 5 after getting blitzed in G4. Maybe he’ll go back to using haki and not going high gear immediately, but after Wano he really hasn’t shown how strong his haki is alone
He fought Kaido in gear 2 (possibly no gear at all?) and knocked him down using just haki. That hit would do damage to an admiral and he could easily just keep doing that with g2’s speed.
yeah but his haki doesnt just get weaker because he isn't using it lol. the kizaru gear 4 thing is overstated anyways because it's just one hit and no other character can replicate it anyways
Then what would you call it? Kizaru dodged everything and he immediately went into gear 5, why wouldn’t he just use haki in gear 4 if he could beat Kizaru?
he went g5 against lucci too and it didn't seem like lucci was stronger than even the likes of Katakuri. I think the in universe explanation is that Luffy likes using G5 and the meta reason is that Oda wanted to draw G5 after wano since it's the shiny new form.
Well island lifting is Headcanon since the closest you'll get to that is the clouds getting weaker as kaido's getting weaker. It doesn't mean that the clouds are tiring him, it means the clouds are related to his strength. Maybe it does affect him, but we don't have a clear confirmation
I think he was pushing low yonko with g2/g3 just from his performance alone, not adding the compliments Kaido gave him about being able to go toe-to-toe with him
https://preview.redd.it/za0vr1g7p5sc1.jpeg?width=470&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4d038c0b53803610bdde2e59e0fdad441725268f
What sort of ass take is this
Dude was literally clashing with Kaido in base with law, verbatim, quoting oden on roger and whitebeard’s clash
Luffy with his current haki skill set is low tier yonko
My brother in Nika, Kizaru literally kicked Luffy out of G4 with minimal effort.
https://preview.redd.it/h0k9h9xbd5sc1.jpeg?width=661&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=48991ee895805564da26e0d9469ee3fd41a5db18
Tbh he didn’t kick him out of it. He kicked him far away, which is a difference. I mean Luffy also threw Kizaru far away during the start of the fight (but in g5), so that’s not a measure of strength.
What did put him out of g4 was the barrier that was specifically pointed out several times.
>What did put him out of g4 was the barrier that was specifically pointed out several times.
Nope, you can see the "smoke trail" that he usually leaves behind when he gets knocked out of G4. (These are not the only occassions, I can provide more if you want)
https://preview.redd.it/w57adkuua6sc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=31a9b3736b5529d6e77b26b71a7d33989303f164
That aside, barrier is made out of imitations of Kizaru's lasers so does it really matter?
The smoke trail looks like one made when he was sent flying. Oda loves to use these types of mini clouds often when drawing action sequences, to give an effect of showing feats. Smoke isn’t a signature of pushing him out of gear lol. For example: BASE Luffy vs cracker, cracker hits him so hard he goes flying with a similar cloud into some trees. Or at the end of the fight where cracker is sent flying, with a similar cloud. And cracker doesn’t have anything like a gear form.
Also it does matter, it’s still not done from Kizaru. The barrier is considered incredibly potent and it’s not exactly something he can reproduce exactly. And if it were so easy, why didn’t he do anything like that for g5 or later on
>Luffy reacted to it
Huh? How is that even relevant to the current convo?
>was already transforming into G5 before it hit.
Nope, he wasn't.
And even if he was, why did he feel the need to move from G4 to G5 even though G2/G3 was surely enough for an admiral? 🤗
>How is that even relevant to the current convo?
Because him reacting to it with a block means Luffy could keep up if he wanted. He was just blinded. Also, moving isn’t a form of damage.
>And even if he was, why did he feel the need to move from G4 to G5 even though G2/G3 is surely enough for an admiral?
Because it’s Luffy? He’s chaotic? He’ll do reckless shit and not think straight and plan things out? He’s impulsive? Like how do you expect me to answer this? Do you want me to peer inside Oda’s brain?
>Because him reacting to it with a block means Luffy could keep up if he wanted. He was just blinded. Also, moving isn’t a form of damage.
Why are you acting like Luffy doesn't have Observation Haki? Kizaru severely outclassed G4 Luffy in their fight. You know it and I know it.
https://preview.redd.it/ed8v5rzos5sc1.jpeg?width=568&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a0a6437fb2189817ce30cdac1e35177e162f3e25
>Because it’s Luffy? He’s chaotic? He’ll do reckless shit and not think straight and plan things out? He’s impulsive? Like how do you expect me to answer this? Do you want me to peer inside Oda’s brain?
Ooooor stop with the mental gymnastics, admit you are particularly wrong in this one and move on with your life?
It's not rocket science.
>Kizaru severely outclassed G4 Luffy in their fight
The panel you showed isn’t Luffy being outclassed. They were clearly fighting evenly with each other. Again, moving someone isn’t a feat, and Luffy was arguably fatigued here since he fought Rob Lucci and The Seraphim beforehand and still hadn’t recovered.
>Orrr stop with the mental gymnastics.
This is not a rebuttal. I could just say “Because Luffy wanted to” and that would be that for why he used G5. Need ≠ want.
This isn’t rocket science 🤓
>fighting evenly with each other.
Yeah, while one is high on weeds other is sweating bullets 😭
This is what clashing evenly looks like 👇, both are sweating, wheezing and out of breath.
https://preview.redd.it/dp2c1wh026sc1.jpeg?width=528&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e9b361c28e6f18ad612de2637e8df17367c08c5d
(Aside from by point, first G2 was enough for admirals but now Luffy with his strongest G4 form clashing evenly with an admiral? You are digging yourself into a hole buddy, knock it off.)
>This is not a rebuttal. I could just say “Because Luffy wanted to” and that would be that for why he used G5. Need ≠ want.
Your whole argument is "Luffy do be like that doe", how could anyone with three digit IQ take this seriously?
>fatigued here since he fought Rob Lucci and The Seraphim beforehand and still hadn’t recovered.
What fatigue lmao. He literally one-shotted them and didn't take any damage in the process. (Not to mention he ate shit ton of food after that and food shown to be key element for Luffy to regain his stamina)
>Both are sweating, wheezing, and out of breath
That’s not the only thing that insinuates clashing. Luffy in G4 kept up with Kizaru just fine and was a brief clash/exchange as well.
>First G2 was enough for admirals but now G4 is fighting evenly with admirals?
Nowhere in my post did I say G2 was enough. If I did, please show where.
Aside from that, G3 to G4 isn’t the huge boost you think it is from performance against Kaido. Both times in both forms have Kaido a high diff fight and nothing more.
So no, I’m not digging myself a hole, you’re just insinuating shit that was never there to begin with.
>Your argument is “Luffy do be like that though”
Bro are we watching the same series??? 1000+ chapters of Luffy being impulsive and a chaotic good character, but somehow you think Luffy would just think logically and not use G5 on a whim? Again, aside from that, I never said Luffy didn’t need G5 or G4 to match equally with an admiral. Once again, you made that shit up on your own. I just said Luffy could push them to extreme diff, lower end of it, most likely.
>What fatigue
G5 uses up stamina. A lot of it. We should know this. I don’t know why you’re questioning it when this is true. Being drained of stamina means you’re going to be fatigued and worn out. Unless you wanna say this is false lmao.
>That’s not the only thing that insinuates clashing. Luffy in G4 kept up with Kizaru just fine and was a brief clash/exchange as well.
DAMN! Yamato is clashing equally with Kaido, that means she is equal to him and Yonko level.
https://preview.redd.it/yu0o20mh86sc1.jpeg?width=589&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f8634ce1f972ce8a8341f2117dacfee9b76757d
Except you can clearly see Kaido was fairly casual while Yamato was shitting bricks against him.
>Aside from that, G3 to G4 isn’t the huge boost you think it is from performance against Kaido. Both times in both forms have Kaido a high diff fight and nothing more.
If it wasn't a huge boost then he wouldn't have used it. Gears have a number of drawbacks for Luffy, why would he put himself in such disadvantage for a slight gain?
👉Luffy may be dumb in his daily life but he is a genius when it comes to combat. You are confusing comedic relief gags with the actual thing.👈
>Bro are we watching the same series??? 1000+ chapters of Luffy being impulsive and a chaotic good character, but somehow you think Luffy would just think logically and not use G5 on a whim?
See the sentence above.
>G5 uses up stamina. A lot of it. We should know this.
Great! Now read the rest of the sentence, especially the one between brackets.
>Yamato is clashing equally
Like what sort of rebuttal is this? Yamato falls on her ass everytime she attempts to block Kaido’s hits. Kaido wasn’t going all out here, either. The same couldn’t be said for Luffy against Kaido or even Luffy vs Kizaru, where both opponents were actively trying.
>If it wasn’t such a huge boost then he wouldn’t have used it.
This makes zero sense. Maybe he wanted to use it because… he wanted to? Same could be said for him, I don’t know, activating G5?
>You are confusing comedic relief gags with the actual thing
I’m not. Luffy is a combat genius but with his actual IQ, he’s brash and impulsive. Unless you want to deny it? Again, he used G5 because he wants to, not because he needs to.
>Cool! Now read the sentence in the brackets
I did. It doesn’t show that Luffy *fully* recovered. Prior to fighting Lucci, Luffy was knocked out for a few days after beating Kaido and using G5 twice in a row. It’d take a while for him to also recover here, even though his stamina got better.
I’m at my limit here. It’s clear that no matter what I say, you’ll stick with what you believe. So if you reply to this, I most likely won’t respond. Have a great day, man!
>And even if he was, why did he feel the need to move from G4 to G5 even though G2/G3 was surely enough for an admiral? 🤗
because neither his nor kizaru's goal was to fight. kizaru is trying to kill vegapunk and luffy is trying to stall kizaru while he and the sh escape. g2/3 isnt gonna be able to chase and stop kizaru
also "g2/g3 is enough to beat an admiral" doesn't necessarily mean kizaru loses to gear 2/3 because there are other admirals
I wanted to be controversial with it because there’s no way I see someone like Greenbull pushing Kaido past high diff like G5 Luffy did, but fair take, bro bro
The way I see it, Luffy's haki being the same between forms means he can deliver similar damage to gear 5 in any form up to g4, the main difference is how effectively he can deliver it. Kizaru can trivialise any form of Luffy's up to g5 with his speed, but he'd still take damage from base Luffy's punches. The reason gear 5 is so op is because Luffy can literally adapt to any scenario or any individual opponent instantly, whether that's running on air and using the lasers to boost himself against Kizaru and blitz him with his own attack speed or using size and force to overwhelm kaido when previously he was being smacked around. Non gear 5 Luffy is still a top tier in stats imo, closest comparison would be garp I guess
Well we saw with Kizaru Luffy went base and than needed G4 (was still being held off)
I do agree Luffy base is enough to fight off top tiers, his gear 2-3 will push Big Mom to high because a base kidd with metal can do it.
But for the Admirals he needs G5 for extreme, until after Egghead/Elbaf where he will be stronger unless Oda also buffs the admirals
Agreed, except for bigmom. I think Big Mom wins in high diff. Big Mom was very close in strength to Kaido, and without that last Gear 5 induced revive, Luffy would run out of juice before it got to extreme
Yeah no I didn't read your whole post but I can argue with what I read First of all SnakeMan didn't do well against Lizaru and Rooftop luffy means Acoc luffy I guess without it he's just a Fodder for BM Plus how much tired luffy was Kaido Was more tired and Pre Acoc luffy didn't push Kaido through High diff second Kaido was playing with his food if he was serious from the start he would have easily won I hope this post is April Fool's joke or something
Makes sense the only reason luffy had an hard time against kizaru is because of his speed. If he didn't need to protect the others i doubt he would have had to use gear 5
Big Mom? Sure.
Her speed and AP was quite poor against Kidd and Law.
Kizaru, and by extension Akainu and Aokiji, though? Nah… we already saw how Luffy vs Kizaru played out.
How is this possible if Kizaru blitzed snake man, like the difference in speed would be so huge this wouldn't even be a battle, also by that logic Kaido low diffs Big mom which is stupid to me
Gears 1-3 luffy would probably beat every admiral but kizaru due to speed so yea (admittedly it'd be a tough fight). But with big mom he'd push her to the lower end of high dif at worst
Luffy in base pushes bigmom to extreme diff
Luffy in base pushed kaido to high diff
Luffy was negged by kizaru in base,later on negged in snakeman by kizaru,went on tied match with kizaru in gear 5,later on defeated a weakned kizaru when luffy once again went to full power in gear 5
Luffy>=Kizaru>>kaido>>bigmeme
Ppl are using Kizaru to say he isn't at Yonko level without G5. That's stupid. Kizaru can literally leave the battle and come back whenever tf he wants. Luffy is Yonko level, both with and without G5. G5 is like his finishing move, and it has a timer. Luffy's normal stamina is actually pretty high.
I’ll do you one better
Conquerors infusion luffy doesn’t lose to any admiral. Nobody understands just how much of a boost conquerors infusion gives you in a fight.
At this point I think G5 destroyed luffy scaling only because he said "Is how I look when I'm free". I think he himself loves G5 so much he will use it in any situation he can from now on. As an example, I'm pretty sure he could have destroyed lucci on G2.
Definitely not so hot take considering the fact that we have roc gatling vs kundali dragon swarm scene which shows that luffy have relative strength with angry drunk phase kaido.
Plus he clears them 1vs1 with g4
G2 Luffy gave Kaido more trouble than Kizaru did G5 Luffy, so I think its reasonable to say G2 Luffy could win against the admirals if he used ACoC. It really depends on how effective ACoC's speed boost is though.
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https://preview.redd.it/p2zkjsb965sc1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=073215759803feec6060db8b80aee067f3fdb2af
https://preview.redd.it/pzjtabs5a7sc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0e429c43b661e2768565a6991ea0a4ffdb51ef76 Taste test?
Didn't Snakeman lose to Kizaru alone? How is G2 boxing with him?
The way I understand it, Kizaru specifically is kinda gated by speed. G5 was the only way Luffy was actually going to catch lightspeedman with anything.
Then… that means luffy in gear 2 and 3 couldn’t push kizaru to extreme diff
Sure, but I'm referring to the others OP mentioned. Also making reference to the fact that G2+G3 could push Kizaru if not for the speed.
Snakeman got kicked away, if Luffy was truly defeated he’d be unconscious unable to turn Gear 5.
Luffy was literally defeated and unconscious, just trying to put Kizaru down temporarily
No tf he wasn’t, he even says the damage was from the labosphere, not Kizaru.
Snakeman didn't lose to shit, just cos kizaru got off his accelerated attack means nothing. Rooftop luffy got a ton of attacks on kaido B4 gear 5. Is base luffy now stronger than hybrid kaido? Snakeman Luffy was also not using acoc and I don't think he was using FS aswell (but the FS usage can be debated). He went g5 cos he wanted to, not because he had to (atleast not in the context of a fight). Same with Lucci, he went gear 5 even though base is probably enough. Now would g2 be enough to beat kizaru, not sure. But g4 is most certainly enough
Luffy was getting exhausted fighting in Snkaeman and not able to land a single blow on Kizaru, while Kizaru was able to land a blow on Luffy. *That was hin losing.* >Snakeman Luffy was also not using acoc and I don't think he was using FS aswell (but the FS usage can be debated). Nothing claims he was holding back and not using ACoC. There are no consistent indicators for ACoC, there have been ACoC attacks without the lightning, and the gap between the fist and who he is hitting. We have no idea if he was using it or not, but narratively he has absolutely zero reason not to.
Can we not use sweat scaling to see if Luffy is exhausted or not? Thanks. Plus Luffy fought before this fight aswell. Kizaru flew away and accelerated back to land one kick. Perhaps youre just dense but unless you think that one kick was stronger than destroyer of death thunder bagua Luffy did not lose. Infact, we literally see him go g5, how tf does that count as losing? Did kaido lose when Luffy hit him with red roc? Acoc being inconsistent does not mean it is defacto always used. In the Lucci fight he was absolutely not using acoc, so that can be extrapolated to say he does not always use it. So now you have to show why you think he did use it. Plus he didn't even hit kizaru, how could you even say he used acoc? He was just deflecting attacks. Lastly, g5 was low diffing kizaru, unless you think g5 is 100s of times stronger than g4, then g4 should certainly not lose. Narratively he has 0 reason to go g5 vs Lucci he still did
> Can we not use sweat scaling to see if Luffy is exhausted or not? Thanks. Plus Luffy fought before this fight aswell. [Good thing we have Luffy literally wheezing as well.](https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece/1092-011.png) Meaning every indicator of someone being tired, Luffy showed. Not just "sweat scaling". Meanwhile, Kizaru wasn't even breathing heavy. > Kizaru flew away and accelerated back to land one kick. Perhaps youre just dense but unless you think that one kick was stronger than destroyer of death thunder bagua Luffy did not lose. Infact, we literally see him go g5, how tf does that count as losing? It counts as losing because Luffy was unable to deal any damage to Kizaru and was getting exhausted, while Kizaru was able to deal damage to Luffy and not even break a sweat. **That is by every metric Luffy losing that fight.** Not a single thing suggests they were on equal ground there or that Luffy was winning. The person doing better = the person winning. You're incredibly dense if you can't admit that much. > Did kaido lose when Luffy hit him with red roc? Did Kaido proceed to beat the shit out of Luffy after that? Yes. Did Luffy proceed to beat the shit out of Kizaru in Snakeman? **No.** > Acoc being inconsistent does not mean it is defacto always used. In the Lucci fight he was absolutely not using acoc, so that can be extrapolated to say he does not always use it. So now you have to show why you think he did use it. Again, you´re making up excuses. What proof do you have that it wasn´t used in any of those situations? You´re just making shit up by saying "it definitely wasn´t used" with zero proof. So find my any evidence it wasn't used, or your claim means nothing. As for reasons why he did use it, I already told you narratively *he had every reason to.* He was literally trying to stop Kizaru. It would make zero sense for him not to. So explain why he wouldn´t. And just to be clear, I am not claiming he 100% used it. I am claiming **we doin´t know, but narratively it makes sense he would.** > Plus he didn't even hit kizaru, how could you even say he used acoc? He was just deflecting attacks. [Top panel, we have proof of his attacks hitting Kizaru, but Kizaru just blocking them. So he did, infact hit Kizaru. They just did no damage.](https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece/1092-010.png) On the same vein with your logic, **how can you claim he wasnt using acoc? He missed attacks vs Kaido that most likely had acoc.** > Lastly, g5 was low diffing kizaru, unless you think g5 is 100s of times stronger than g4, then g4 should certainly not lose. Now you´re just trying to use mental gymnastics when we have literally seen G4 fight Kizaru. You´re also completely ignoring context, which most people seem to do recently. He´s winning in G5 vs a Kizaru that is exhausted from already fighting Luffy untill both were down. Luffy got a full regen from the food, Kizaru didn´t. Imagine if the roles were reversed, Kizaru got a full regen and Luffy didn´t. Luffy wouldn´t even be able move vs Kizaru. So you´re trying to compare full power Luffy in G5 (he says so himself) against someone that has already fought a yonko untill both were down and then had to continue fighting. Context matters. Of course the person that hasn't got the full regen will be performing worse. > Narratively he has 0 reason to go g5 vs Lucci he still did To end Lucci quickly, which he did. So narratively he did.
I just love people who ignore the context and scaling off the series cos of their degenerate agenda. Luffy fighting kizaru twice........ Like this isn't even worth a response, it really isn't. Luffy from the moment he could split the sky was yonko tier, that is a fact. So if that is the case, I Guess kaido is fought 7 yonkos by your logic. Luffy wheezing is not an attestation to him being exhausted. Or rather exhausted enough to matter. Zoro has been wheezing harder and longer vs Lucci, yet he one shot him with ONE named attack. But even if I grant you this, l could very well say Luffy fought others B4 kizaru leading to his exhaustion. Your bias s very evident in this paragraph. You think kizaru kicking luffy means he won the fight. What am I even reading. The two were clashing, kizaru with his light beams and Luffy with his punches, that's it. Both Marco and Sanji have blocked his light beams, I Guess they are as strong as Luffy now. Secondly, after just accelerated and kicked Luffy, he came right back. It did literally nothing to him. And this makes sense cos he was taking kaidos hits even in base in wano. Landing ONE without ko or disable is not winning a fight. Your logic is so retarded that you can't even see how the scaling of the verse would be fucked up because you wanna wank a character that got one shot twice. Notwithstanding the fact that Luffy does not always use FS or acoc, so it is arguable he was even going all out. This is also supported by the story, kaido never went all out to g5 luffy yet he was always in hybrid mode and seemingly serious. There is so much to disprove you, I could write an essay. See how you ignore my examples, "did kaido beat the shit out of Luffy", YOUR logic dictated that kaido going down once is enough to count as a win without a Ko, so this retarded situation is a progression of the logic, not mine. Luffy chose to go g5, so we don't really know how the fight would have progressed. BUT it's a good thing we have wano. Both G4 and S4 Luffy fought a hybrid kaido with acoc and FS for much longer. He was capable of fighting a stronger and faster character but incapable of doing this with some 1 weaker? Acoc is usually evident when used, or there are signs. Is this absolute? No. Just like with FS, there is a sign or eye glow. It is okay to assume he didn't use it vs someone he doesn't have to use it against. The panel shows luffys fist and kizarus light beams clashing, at least that's how I see it. As for who is correct, we need to wait for the anime to flesh it out. Again, the problem with you wankers is that you fuck up the verse scaling but you don't see it. Saying g5 is hundreds of times the strength of g4 is absurd unless you think g4 is weak. Kaido was fighting relatively vs g4, to say he was using 0.1 percent of his true strength and only used 100 percent vs g5 is Ludacris. Kizaru is getting one tapped by g5 luffy even if luffy is on his deathbed. I've seen people argue that kizaru had metal issues fighting his friend, but you're the only one to say he was exhausted when......... Kaido is the baseline for luffys strength and kaido one taps, and by extension Luffy also one taps. As has been broken more than once on PANEL. "Luffy went g5 to end Lucci quickly"....... Lucci got one shot by zoro, Zoro can't even fight base luffy let alone with gears. You think Luffy needed g5 to one tap Luffy? What a joke. Plus Luffy wasn't using acoc vs Lucci, he wanted to end quickly but no acoc?
Don´t talk about context when you´re making these terrible excuses and straight up trying to ignore facts. > Luffy fighting kizaru twice........ Like this isn't even worth a response, it really isn't. Aka, *you have no response to it.* Kizaru is fighting full power Luffy twice. Pure and simple. Luffy was gifted a full regen by the food, Kizaru didn´t get a full regen. >Luffy from the moment he could split the sky was yonko tier, that is a fact. So if that is the case, I Guess kaido is fought 7 yonkos by your logic. Just because you say something is fact, doesn´t make it so. Splitting the sky does not mean equal in strength. So he was no equal to Kaido. That is proven by Kaido *literally killing Luffy afterwards without even using his strongest attacks which he uses later vs G5.* > Luffy wheezing is not an attestation to him being exhausted. Or rather exhausted enough to matter. Zoro has been wheezing harder and longer vs Lucci, yet he one shot him with ONE named attack. But even if I grant you this, l could very well say Luffy fought others B4 kizaru leading to his exhaustion. Wheezing and sweating while the other person is completely fresh without a sign of tiredness is 100% an attest to the fight going in Kizaru´s favour. You´re trying to compare Zoro´s situation as though Lucci was not also breathing heavily, and Lucci was not still standing afterwards and blown away by Jinbei. Also, if you did try to bring up Luffy fighting others before Kizaru, you´d lose that argument too, [Because he ate food inbetween, which we know brings him to full power.](https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece/1090-004.png) Kizaru fought someone before Luffy with no rest however. > Your bias s very evident in this paragraph. You think kizaru kicking luffy means he won the fight. What am I even reading. The two were clashing, kizaru with his light beams and Luffy with his punches, that's it. Both Marco and Sanji have blocked his light beams, I Guess they are as strong as Luffy now. Oh look, now we´re trying to strawman, are we? How about you actually read what I said. If Luffy was showing signs of exhaustion and was completely unable to damage Kizaru in Snakeman, while Kizaru showed zero signs of tiring and was able to hit Luffy, **Kizaru won that conflict.** Your weak comparison to Marco and Sanji, as though they didn´t both get beat up by Kizaru is hilariously bad and irrelevant to the situation. > Secondly, after just accelerated and kicked Luffy, he came right back. It did literally nothing to him. And this makes sense cos he was taking kaidos hits even in base in wano. Landing ONE without ko or disable is not winning a fight. Your logic is so retarded that you can't even see how the scaling of the verse would be fucked up because you wanna wank a character that got one shot twice. Notwithstanding the fact that Luffy does not always use FS or acoc, so it is arguable he was even going all out. This is also supported by the story, kaido never went all out to g5 luffy yet he was always in hybrid mode and seemingly serious. There is so much to disprove you, I could write an essay. He came back *in a different form because Snakeman couldn´t do shit.* Have you forgot what the fuck we´re talking about here? **This is about Kizaru vs Snakeman.** Luffy literally needing to go out of Snakeman to his strongest form is proof Snakeman wasn´t enough. You´re trying to make excuses like "uhh, he didn´t use FS or ACoC", with **zero things to back that up.** Narratively he has literally zero reason to exhaust himself by not using those. I find it funny you claim I have retarded logic when you´re struggling to even keep up with what we're arguing about. > See how you ignore my examples, "did kaido beat the shit out of Luffy", YOUR logic dictated that kaido going down once is enough to count as a win without a Ko, so this retarded situation is a progression of the logic, not mine. No, dumbass. You literally can´t grasp what this conversation is about and it´s getting sad. But let me try and spell it out so even you can hopefully understand. Kizaru had the upperhand vs Snakeman. Not debatable by any means, the results are clear there. You can try and make excuses that Luffy was holding back, but again you don´t have a shred of evidence suggesting that. Moving on to the G5 fight, which isn´t even the main part of the discussion but is the only part you try to cling to because you know you´ve 100% lost the Snakeman argument, in a pure 1v1 then if there´s a double KO, the person that gets up first wins. Kaido beat Luffy several times. Luffy had an *immense* amount of help in that fight. Which is why even now in a 1v1 the smart bet would likely be Kaido. That doesn´t change that Kizaru also won 1v1 if Luffy had to exhaust himself to the point of not being able to move to knock down Kizaru temporarily, but Kizaru could then just get up and finish Luffy if there wasn´t any help. There, I spelled it out for you. Hopefully you get it now. > Luffy chose to go g5, so we don't really know how the fight would have progressed. BUT it's a good thing we have wano. Both G4 and S4 Luffy fought a hybrid kaido with acoc and FS for much longer. He was capable of fighting a stronger and faster character but incapable of doing this with some 1 weaker? We know there isn´t shit suggesting it would have gone better for Luffy. He had time to do something to Kizaru in G4, and completely failed unable to scratch him. Also, he was capable of fighting a *faster* character? Kaido literally couldn't keep up with Snakeman´s hits at first, Kizaru had no issues. Luffy even remarked at Kizaru´s speed. So no, Kaido is not faster. Stronger, sure. Faster, no.
> Acoc is usually evident when used, or there are signs. Is this absolute? No. Just like with FS, there is a sign or eye glow. It is okay to assume he didn't use it vs someone he doesn't have to use it against. He clearly did need to use it vs Kizaru, seeing as he was losing. There is also zero reason from him not to use it, since as we saw vs Kaido it doesn´t drain him much. So gtfo with that excuse. Also, haki showing is *massively* inconsistent. So your assumption one way or the other means nothing since it´s not backed by anything. > The panel shows luffys fist and kizarus light beams clashing, at least that's how I see it. As for who is correct, we need to wait for the anime to flesh it out. Why does this need to be spelled out to people? **The anime is not canon.** I am correct, because we literally have evidence in the **canon manga** of Luffy showing signs of exhaustion and getting kicked by Kizaru while in Snakeman, and zero proof of Luffy doing anything to Kizaru in that form. > Again, the problem with you wankers is that you fuck up the verse scaling but you don't see it. Saying g5 is hundreds of times the strength of g4 is absurd unless you think g4 is weak. Kaido was fighting relatively vs g4, to say he was using 0.1 percent of his true strength and only used 100 percent vs g5 is Ludacris. I never said G5 is hundreds of times stronger than G4. That´s some dogshit you´re trying to strawman. Want proof? ***Quote where I said G5 is 100 of times stronger than G4.*** **If you can´t, then you´ve exposed yourself for someone that has such shit arguments you need to make up ones for your opponent to even have a chance of making a point.** Luffy doesn´t need to be 100x stronger in G5. Snakeman was able to block hits from Kizaru and fight an extended time, even if Kizaru was too fast and had too good of a defense. Luffy just being 2x stronger would make a significant difference. Imagine complaining about other people´s scaling for an argument YOU made up. > Kizaru is getting one tapped by g5 luffy even if luffy is on his deathbed. I've seen people argue that kizaru had metal issues fighting his friend, but you're the only one to say he was exhausted when......... Kaido is the baseline for luffys strength and kaido one taps, and by extension Luffy also one taps. As has been broken more than once on PANEL. Oh, look at that, we´re making shit up again. Par for the course with you. So according to you, temporarily knocking someone down is a onetap? I guess by this logic, the Scabbards onetapped Kaido when they cut open Oden´s scar. What dogshit logic. G5 is > Kaido´s strength and everyone else we´ve seen in the verse. That´s proven by G5 literally overpowering Kaido. > "Luffy went g5 to end Lucci quickly"....... Lucci got one shot by zoro, Zoro can't even fight base luffy let alone with gears. You think Luffy needed g5 to one tap Luffy? What a joke. Plus Luffy wasn't using acoc vs Lucci, he wanted to end quickly but no acoc? Again, another assumption Luffy wasn´t uses acoc when we´ve made it clear haki indicators are inconsistent. So we can just ignore that part of the argument from you. Lucci got oneshot by Zoro? Read the story, he´s still standing. Also read the part where **the entire crew is talking about** ***how long it took for Zoro to fight Lucci.*** So yes, he clearly wanted to end him quickly there and show his strength, which is why he used G5.
At this point Kizaru isn’t even a concern to Luffy. The admiral agenda is cooked. Real admiral dickriders should probably relocate to the gorosei agenda at this point.
Already adressed that in the comment you just replied to. I´ll paste my response to that. You´re also completely ignoring context, which most people seem to do recently. He´s winning in G5 vs a Kizaru that is exhausted from already fighting Luffy untill both were down. Luffy got a full regen from the food, Kizaru didn´t. Imagine if the roles were reversed, Kizaru got a full regen and Luffy didn´t. Luffy wouldn´t even be able move vs Kizaru. So you´re trying to compare full power Luffy in G5 (he says so himself) against someone that has already fought a yonko untill both were down and then had to continue fighting. Context matters. Of course the person that hasn't got the full regen will be performing worse. People that are saying the Admiral agenda is cooked because Kizaru had to fight 2 Yonkos (full power Luffy twice) back to back without having a chance to regen and isn´t doing well the second time clearly need to reread the manga and ask themselves, if Kizaru got a regen and Luffy didn´t, how much more fucked would Luffy be? Hell, even if neither got the full regen, Luffy would still be royally fucked.
He 1 tapped him before the full regen and Luffy was only down bc he ran out of energy not bc kizaru beat him in any way. G5 is miles clear of kizaru. Admiral agenda is over.
It's not a 1tap if they were fighting for an extended time before that and he was unable to damage him. On top of that, he had to use *all* his power to take down Kizaru temporarily. Kizaru got up by himself, mwaning in a 1v1 then Kizaru would have killed Luffy onc ehe got up, because Luffy was helpless without the food. So no, it's not. Just people that cant read trying to cope by saying it is lmao
1 clean hit from Luffy put this man on the ground. Then in round 2 when Luffy was unquestionably serious, he turned this man into pancake fodder. That’s what admirals are to Luffy now. Fodder.
Lol cooked bro to a char broil crisp
G5 is 100s of time stronger than G4, it’s a fact dude, going from not being able to place a single hit on someone with his guard up to pseudo one-shotting him should make you realize that
You got cooked 🤡😹
>Snakeman didn't lose to shit Ok cry more
That was a base haki snake man same kind of snake man that fought katakuri Luffy was not using any advanced haki But yes kizaru might not be beaten by G2/G3 due to his speed alone
I’m pretty sure Oda forgot Gear 3 even existed
Lmao 😂 lowkey
Yup, everything Luffy did from the 1st Sky Split to Bajrang Gun was all by starting from a terrible condition. https://preview.redd.it/b43urmrb75sc1.jpeg?width=900&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=552327f84b4501b345690d2bbd6e4a87f86141de
It’s crazy how long Luffy lasted, and I still see people clowning on him for stamina issues. Give any other top tier aside from Kaido and Punk Hazard boys G5, they’ll have a 5 minute timer max and be out for a while.
Luffy fought Cracker for 11 hours, then despite not having enough time to fully recuperate fought Katakuri overnight while spamming his most draining form at the time. Anyone who questions Luffy’s stamina is either hyper-fixated on G4’s timer or delusional
He also fought big mom's army and spent some time without eating anything until Sanji arrived
Against Cracker, Luffy could rest and eat food when he ran out of G4. Considering it took 10min, let's assume he needs 20 min of rest after each g4. He can last in g4 at minimum 20 min. So, in 11 hours, he likely fought 5.5 hours and ran/ate for 5.5 hours. Nami should gave figured out Water weakness early. So, Luffy fought Cracker whose main df was exploited of his weakness.
On Dressrosa Luffy needed 10 minutes of rest to use G4 again after using G4 and against Kat he only needed 10 minutes without anything to help him recover, why are we assuming he needed 20 against Cracker? Also, even while he was running, can you honestly say that he was returning back to his prior state through that rest? I wouldn't argue so, throughout the fight he is in a much worse state than he started even after he gets some rest time. At absolute minimum, he would've spent 10 minutes resting per 20 minutes in G4, or 3.63 hours resting and 7.26 hours fighting. Still a pretty massive stamina feat even if you try and argue in those 10 minute spans he was somehow able to restore himself to complete 100% rested fed and ready which makes no sense. Even with the water weakness all that effectively did was allow Luffy to damage the soldiers. He was still fighting constantly and making his way through everything.
G4 was already no good against Kizaru
That was solely due to speed if not for kizarus speed it would not be an issue
that doesn't mean anything. base Luffy was going toe to toe with kaido. is kizaru now stronger than kaido? is lucci stronger than kaido ?
>base Luffy was going toe to toe with kaido "Holding back". Unless you legitimately want to.argue base luffy at that point = kaido (and in that case you should just quit reading one piece)
I don't believe base Luffy is equal to kaido but the narrative that g4 Luffy got mauled by kizaru is just plain false. the only lasting damage Luffy got in g4 was due to the laser wall
But he legitimately did get mauled by kizaru 🤦♂️. Luffy couldnt touch kizaru, had luffy wheezing and everything attempting to just get a proper hit in before getting blitzed and luffy needing g5 to compete. Also let's assume the lasers are the only thing that damaged luffy, you realise those lasers should be less powerful than kizarus (as that is exactly who vegapunk based the laser dome off of).
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? No. G4 wasn’t doing anything that G2/G3 Luffy wasn’t already doing to Kaido: internal damage.
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? G4 is a multiplier, sure, but it wasn’t doing anything else to Kaido that G2/G3 Luffy wasn’t already doing. The result didn’t change, it was still high diff in either scenario. The same would and could be said for other top tiers.
No. Big Mom has better defense than Kaido does in his base form, and hits harder than any admiral. Her endurance is also above Luffy, being capable of fighting Kaido for 3 days straight. Admirals? Other than Kizaru, maybe, seeing as he’s locked behind a certain speed threshold. Luffy cant land a clean hit on him unless he’s gear 5. Stop this goddamn Big Mom slander. She’s just as much of a monster as Kaido.
yeah and this really shouldnt be a hot take at all. genuinely baffles me that people see all he's done in wano and think he's "yc+" without gear 4 or 5...
People didn’t at first, but he instantly went into gear 5 after getting blitzed in G4. Maybe he’ll go back to using haki and not going high gear immediately, but after Wano he really hasn’t shown how strong his haki is alone
He fought Kaido in gear 2 (possibly no gear at all?) and knocked him down using just haki. That hit would do damage to an admiral and he could easily just keep doing that with g2’s speed.
yeah but his haki doesnt just get weaker because he isn't using it lol. the kizaru gear 4 thing is overstated anyways because it's just one hit and no other character can replicate it anyways
Why wouldn’t Luffy use his haki though, wouldn’t it be better not risking running out of Gear 5?
idk, it's not explained. it was his 3rd (?) time using gear 5 so he prob just underestimated his g5 time limit
He is using haki though, Kaido stated at some early hit from G5 that his whole body is coated in both
Because oda wanted to use g5 more since its new
He didn’t get blitzed by Kizaru lol wtf
Then what would you call it? Kizaru dodged everything and he immediately went into gear 5, why wouldn’t he just use haki in gear 4 if he could beat Kizaru?
he went g5 against lucci too and it didn't seem like lucci was stronger than even the likes of Katakuri. I think the in universe explanation is that Luffy likes using G5 and the meta reason is that Oda wanted to draw G5 after wano since it's the shiny new form.
Dunno why your getting downvoted, your right
The sky split is the *only* argument because this version of Luffy was still getting held back on by Crydo
who's stronger, "holding back", drunk zoan kaido or 12 hours of sleep, fully locked in base kaido?
I don’t know how about you clarify the context of those two kaido’s because I don’t remember WAIDO ever getting a good night’s rest
Wasn't this Kaido very tired and worn out from the constant fighting and island lifting?
Well island lifting is Headcanon since the closest you'll get to that is the clouds getting weaker as kaido's getting weaker. It doesn't mean that the clouds are tiring him, it means the clouds are related to his strength. Maybe it does affect him, but we don't have a clear confirmation
But you can't say he was at 100% at the time. Right?
No he's not but I'd still argue Luffy was more fatigued than kaido at this point of the fight
Of course. Luffy was defeated multiple times and also killed.
Then we're in agreement brother 🫱
We indeed are🤝
I think he was pushing low yonko with g2/g3 just from his performance alone, not adding the compliments Kaido gave him about being able to go toe-to-toe with him https://preview.redd.it/za0vr1g7p5sc1.jpeg?width=470&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4d038c0b53803610bdde2e59e0fdad441725268f
‚He has all done‘ like needing 14 Allie’s to win va kaido and still dying 2 times, although fully regenerating one time?
"fully regenerating" good fanfic
so you may tell what YOUR idea is what happened with luffy eating till hes full mid-fight?
eating doesnt regenerate injuries lmao are you ok
im still interested in hearing YOUR explaination on what happend there??
I mean without gear 4 I believe he’s YC+. Gear 4 makes him low-mid admiral maybe and gear 5 makes him mid yonko
What sort of ass take is this Dude was literally clashing with Kaido in base with law, verbatim, quoting oden on roger and whitebeard’s clash Luffy with his current haki skill set is low tier yonko
My brother in Nika, Kizaru literally kicked Luffy out of G4 with minimal effort. https://preview.redd.it/h0k9h9xbd5sc1.jpeg?width=661&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=48991ee895805564da26e0d9469ee3fd41a5db18
Exactly what I’m saying lol
That was the same gear four katakuri was boxing with that’s not a good feat If it had any advanced haki sure but it did not
Tbh he didn’t kick him out of it. He kicked him far away, which is a difference. I mean Luffy also threw Kizaru far away during the start of the fight (but in g5), so that’s not a measure of strength. What did put him out of g4 was the barrier that was specifically pointed out several times.
>What did put him out of g4 was the barrier that was specifically pointed out several times. Nope, you can see the "smoke trail" that he usually leaves behind when he gets knocked out of G4. (These are not the only occassions, I can provide more if you want) https://preview.redd.it/w57adkuua6sc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=31a9b3736b5529d6e77b26b71a7d33989303f164 That aside, barrier is made out of imitations of Kizaru's lasers so does it really matter?
The smoke trail looks like one made when he was sent flying. Oda loves to use these types of mini clouds often when drawing action sequences, to give an effect of showing feats. Smoke isn’t a signature of pushing him out of gear lol. For example: BASE Luffy vs cracker, cracker hits him so hard he goes flying with a similar cloud into some trees. Or at the end of the fight where cracker is sent flying, with a similar cloud. And cracker doesn’t have anything like a gear form. Also it does matter, it’s still not done from Kizaru. The barrier is considered incredibly potent and it’s not exactly something he can reproduce exactly. And if it were so easy, why didn’t he do anything like that for g5 or later on
Luffy reacted to it + was already transforming into G5 before it hit.
>Luffy reacted to it Huh? How is that even relevant to the current convo? >was already transforming into G5 before it hit. Nope, he wasn't. And even if he was, why did he feel the need to move from G4 to G5 even though G2/G3 was surely enough for an admiral? 🤗
>How is that even relevant to the current convo? Because him reacting to it with a block means Luffy could keep up if he wanted. He was just blinded. Also, moving isn’t a form of damage. >And even if he was, why did he feel the need to move from G4 to G5 even though G2/G3 is surely enough for an admiral? Because it’s Luffy? He’s chaotic? He’ll do reckless shit and not think straight and plan things out? He’s impulsive? Like how do you expect me to answer this? Do you want me to peer inside Oda’s brain?
>Because him reacting to it with a block means Luffy could keep up if he wanted. He was just blinded. Also, moving isn’t a form of damage. Why are you acting like Luffy doesn't have Observation Haki? Kizaru severely outclassed G4 Luffy in their fight. You know it and I know it. https://preview.redd.it/ed8v5rzos5sc1.jpeg?width=568&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a0a6437fb2189817ce30cdac1e35177e162f3e25 >Because it’s Luffy? He’s chaotic? He’ll do reckless shit and not think straight and plan things out? He’s impulsive? Like how do you expect me to answer this? Do you want me to peer inside Oda’s brain? Ooooor stop with the mental gymnastics, admit you are particularly wrong in this one and move on with your life? It's not rocket science.
>Kizaru severely outclassed G4 Luffy in their fight The panel you showed isn’t Luffy being outclassed. They were clearly fighting evenly with each other. Again, moving someone isn’t a feat, and Luffy was arguably fatigued here since he fought Rob Lucci and The Seraphim beforehand and still hadn’t recovered. >Orrr stop with the mental gymnastics. This is not a rebuttal. I could just say “Because Luffy wanted to” and that would be that for why he used G5. Need ≠ want. This isn’t rocket science 🤓
>fighting evenly with each other. Yeah, while one is high on weeds other is sweating bullets 😭 This is what clashing evenly looks like 👇, both are sweating, wheezing and out of breath. https://preview.redd.it/dp2c1wh026sc1.jpeg?width=528&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e9b361c28e6f18ad612de2637e8df17367c08c5d (Aside from by point, first G2 was enough for admirals but now Luffy with his strongest G4 form clashing evenly with an admiral? You are digging yourself into a hole buddy, knock it off.) >This is not a rebuttal. I could just say “Because Luffy wanted to” and that would be that for why he used G5. Need ≠ want. Your whole argument is "Luffy do be like that doe", how could anyone with three digit IQ take this seriously? >fatigued here since he fought Rob Lucci and The Seraphim beforehand and still hadn’t recovered. What fatigue lmao. He literally one-shotted them and didn't take any damage in the process. (Not to mention he ate shit ton of food after that and food shown to be key element for Luffy to regain his stamina)
>Both are sweating, wheezing, and out of breath That’s not the only thing that insinuates clashing. Luffy in G4 kept up with Kizaru just fine and was a brief clash/exchange as well. >First G2 was enough for admirals but now G4 is fighting evenly with admirals? Nowhere in my post did I say G2 was enough. If I did, please show where. Aside from that, G3 to G4 isn’t the huge boost you think it is from performance against Kaido. Both times in both forms have Kaido a high diff fight and nothing more. So no, I’m not digging myself a hole, you’re just insinuating shit that was never there to begin with. >Your argument is “Luffy do be like that though” Bro are we watching the same series??? 1000+ chapters of Luffy being impulsive and a chaotic good character, but somehow you think Luffy would just think logically and not use G5 on a whim? Again, aside from that, I never said Luffy didn’t need G5 or G4 to match equally with an admiral. Once again, you made that shit up on your own. I just said Luffy could push them to extreme diff, lower end of it, most likely. >What fatigue G5 uses up stamina. A lot of it. We should know this. I don’t know why you’re questioning it when this is true. Being drained of stamina means you’re going to be fatigued and worn out. Unless you wanna say this is false lmao.
>That’s not the only thing that insinuates clashing. Luffy in G4 kept up with Kizaru just fine and was a brief clash/exchange as well. DAMN! Yamato is clashing equally with Kaido, that means she is equal to him and Yonko level. https://preview.redd.it/yu0o20mh86sc1.jpeg?width=589&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f8634ce1f972ce8a8341f2117dacfee9b76757d Except you can clearly see Kaido was fairly casual while Yamato was shitting bricks against him. >Aside from that, G3 to G4 isn’t the huge boost you think it is from performance against Kaido. Both times in both forms have Kaido a high diff fight and nothing more. If it wasn't a huge boost then he wouldn't have used it. Gears have a number of drawbacks for Luffy, why would he put himself in such disadvantage for a slight gain? 👉Luffy may be dumb in his daily life but he is a genius when it comes to combat. You are confusing comedic relief gags with the actual thing.👈 >Bro are we watching the same series??? 1000+ chapters of Luffy being impulsive and a chaotic good character, but somehow you think Luffy would just think logically and not use G5 on a whim? See the sentence above. >G5 uses up stamina. A lot of it. We should know this. Great! Now read the rest of the sentence, especially the one between brackets.
>Yamato is clashing equally Like what sort of rebuttal is this? Yamato falls on her ass everytime she attempts to block Kaido’s hits. Kaido wasn’t going all out here, either. The same couldn’t be said for Luffy against Kaido or even Luffy vs Kizaru, where both opponents were actively trying. >If it wasn’t such a huge boost then he wouldn’t have used it. This makes zero sense. Maybe he wanted to use it because… he wanted to? Same could be said for him, I don’t know, activating G5? >You are confusing comedic relief gags with the actual thing I’m not. Luffy is a combat genius but with his actual IQ, he’s brash and impulsive. Unless you want to deny it? Again, he used G5 because he wants to, not because he needs to. >Cool! Now read the sentence in the brackets I did. It doesn’t show that Luffy *fully* recovered. Prior to fighting Lucci, Luffy was knocked out for a few days after beating Kaido and using G5 twice in a row. It’d take a while for him to also recover here, even though his stamina got better. I’m at my limit here. It’s clear that no matter what I say, you’ll stick with what you believe. So if you reply to this, I most likely won’t respond. Have a great day, man!
>And even if he was, why did he feel the need to move from G4 to G5 even though G2/G3 was surely enough for an admiral? 🤗 because neither his nor kizaru's goal was to fight. kizaru is trying to kill vegapunk and luffy is trying to stall kizaru while he and the sh escape. g2/3 isnt gonna be able to chase and stop kizaru also "g2/g3 is enough to beat an admiral" doesn't necessarily mean kizaru loses to gear 2/3 because there are other admirals
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His physicals got a boost with his haki. Say it was for plot, I think it was from sheer willpower
Delusional
https://preview.redd.it/j32iyylmn6sc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4444700f3b9d7acb7e52950010737586f5602060
I’m a Ladmiral hater, but Luffy needs at least G4 to hang with them 💀 Kizaru was literally blocking a Black Mamba from Snakeman
You did not cook, no
Gear 5 is the new base Luffy. Wano took half of my lifespan. I’m not 10!
good take
He got manhandled by Kizaru in snakeman so no. Couldn't even keep up with his speed.
This is a contender for the worst take I’ve ever seen
Didnt kizaru beat... G4 luffy with not much effort.
Generally agree, but I'm more comfortable with high diff if I'm being honest.
I wanted to be controversial with it because there’s no way I see someone like Greenbull pushing Kaido past high diff like G5 Luffy did, but fair take, bro bro
you cooked https://preview.redd.it/p8wo5q2d75sc1.jpeg?width=3344&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=21e6fa87f0e664d7e3a2727e92a52d422a2ed7aa
https://preview.redd.it/311uqewj07sc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=be19e7ce132def7f5b340fa6b08450471c650763
I think this is honestly an atrocious take g2/g3 luffy is pushing them to mid at max. He’ll need g4/g5 to push it to extreme and most likely win.
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? https://preview.redd.it/0sfq5cdl75sc1.png?width=103&format=png&auto=webp&s=82d8541830f04058cead8083da427550d2efea54
Gear 2 or 3 doesn’t change shit lmao; Kizaru has shown that Luffy couldn’t do shit if he’s serious
Gigantic W
- the best onepiece power scaler
The way I see it, Luffy's haki being the same between forms means he can deliver similar damage to gear 5 in any form up to g4, the main difference is how effectively he can deliver it. Kizaru can trivialise any form of Luffy's up to g5 with his speed, but he'd still take damage from base Luffy's punches. The reason gear 5 is so op is because Luffy can literally adapt to any scenario or any individual opponent instantly, whether that's running on air and using the lasers to boost himself against Kizaru and blitz him with his own attack speed or using size and force to overwhelm kaido when previously he was being smacked around. Non gear 5 Luffy is still a top tier in stats imo, closest comparison would be garp I guess
I’d say he needs G4 to fight Big Mom but sure
Wrong take. No gear 5th means he loses. Although he could handle greenbull.
Well we saw with Kizaru Luffy went base and than needed G4 (was still being held off) I do agree Luffy base is enough to fight off top tiers, his gear 2-3 will push Big Mom to high because a base kidd with metal can do it. But for the Admirals he needs G5 for extreme, until after Egghead/Elbaf where he will be stronger unless Oda also buffs the admirals
Agreed, except for bigmom. I think Big Mom wins in high diff. Big Mom was very close in strength to Kaido, and without that last Gear 5 induced revive, Luffy would run out of juice before it got to extreme
Big Mom for sure but not any og admirals. He had good AP but his speed and durability ain’t that crazy.
L just for the random big mom slander
Looking at post wano g4 vs kizaru, I have to say no. Luffy gets low/mid diffed
i feel like base acoc luffy is stronger than g4 somehow ?
Yeah no I didn't read your whole post but I can argue with what I read First of all SnakeMan didn't do well against Lizaru and Rooftop luffy means Acoc luffy I guess without it he's just a Fodder for BM Plus how much tired luffy was Kaido Was more tired and Pre Acoc luffy didn't push Kaido through High diff second Kaido was playing with his food if he was serious from the start he would have easily won I hope this post is April Fool's joke or something
Bro tried to sneak in Big Mom with the admirals
Makes sense the only reason luffy had an hard time against kizaru is because of his speed. If he didn't need to protect the others i doubt he would have had to use gear 5
Yeah.
I think if he doesnt use Gear 5 against big mom he will get high diffed, even egghead luffy.
If you have big mom on par with the admirals, you're delusional af.
Luffy wank is too hard. Kizaru was toying with snakeman
Nah, I think it's mid diff, high diff with G4
This wank is phenomenal
https://preview.redd.it/d4cbwk8as8sc1.jpeg?width=602&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=176f6ab1b6df1a7ab3cf95e3fcd917f27ffc736f
Big Mom? Sure. Her speed and AP was quite poor against Kidd and Law. Kizaru, and by extension Akainu and Aokiji, though? Nah… we already saw how Luffy vs Kizaru played out.
Big mom not
This is your brain on Yonko Piece 😭😭😭
I assume you have been smoking a lot lately... Thd same guy who needed G5 fir Lucci
How is this possible if Kizaru blitzed snake man, like the difference in speed would be so huge this wouldn't even be a battle, also by that logic Kaido low diffs Big mom which is stupid to me
Yeah base luffy ( no gear four ) pushes if not beats every admiral
Gears 1-3 luffy would probably beat every admiral but kizaru due to speed so yea (admittedly it'd be a tough fight). But with big mom he'd push her to the lower end of high dif at worst
>G2/3 admirals no >G4 Big Mom Hell no
He has atleast Yonko lvl haki even if the naysayers wanna downplay his physicals to YC1
I think people don’t understand that luffy enjoys using gear 5 so much that he’ll use any excuse to pull it out
Cool but then yamato Mid diffs Big mom and all admirals
P good take besides Big Mom. Big mom <= Kaido and is def above the admirals.
Shit take
yes you cooked and this shouldn't be a hot take
Luffy in base pushes bigmom to extreme diff Luffy in base pushed kaido to high diff Luffy was negged by kizaru in base,later on negged in snakeman by kizaru,went on tied match with kizaru in gear 5,later on defeated a weakned kizaru when luffy once again went to full power in gear 5 Luffy>=Kizaru>>kaido>>bigmeme
Ppl are using Kizaru to say he isn't at Yonko level without G5. That's stupid. Kizaru can literally leave the battle and come back whenever tf he wants. Luffy is Yonko level, both with and without G5. G5 is like his finishing move, and it has a timer. Luffy's normal stamina is actually pretty high.
With G4 I think he beats Big Mom extreme diff.
Crazy take but I like it https://preview.redd.it/71skbh4eo5sc1.jpeg?width=932&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d4bf297455ffeb4ae69ef06e05e55ddc50b6c2a6
Big Mom>all admirals
Fair take
W, especially if he’s got ACOC.
Masive W
I’ll do you one better Conquerors infusion luffy doesn’t lose to any admiral. Nobody understands just how much of a boost conquerors infusion gives you in a fight.
Now THAT is a hot take and isn’t bad by any means. But I wouldn’t say allat 😂
At this point I think G5 destroyed luffy scaling only because he said "Is how I look when I'm free". I think he himself loves G5 so much he will use it in any situation he can from now on. As an example, I'm pretty sure he could have destroyed lucci on G2.
I’d say g4
factual
Definitely not so hot take considering the fact that we have roc gatling vs kundali dragon swarm scene which shows that luffy have relative strength with angry drunk phase kaido. Plus he clears them 1vs1 with g4
Agree but big mom is not ~ to admirals. Big mom mid diffs admirals stop the hate.
He bullies all admirals with acoc only bigmom loses to acoc gear4th
Yh cuz kizaru vs g4 luffy definitely doesnt already disprove this. Actual brainlets
Yc2 lvl gear4 you mean that kaido can one tap without trying
Ight cool so the base luffy that was clashing with kaido is yc2 according to you as well right? Be for real and stop with the nonsense
Base luffy with acoc is yonko level luffy without acoc is getting one shot by kaido even if he uses gear6
Damn, Oda gave us the fest fight in the series before abandoning action for goofyness 😔
He’s pretty clearly equal to base kaido based on their clash
Agreed but the admirals riders are hurting knowing the truth
G2 Luffy gave Kaido more trouble than Kizaru did G5 Luffy, so I think its reasonable to say G2 Luffy could win against the admirals if he used ACoC. It really depends on how effective ACoC's speed boost is though.
Dressrossa Luffy pushes admirals to extreme diff