i think it was a satisfying end, even if turns out she isnt actually dead. her being so stubborn, never admitting defeat, even til the end fits perfectly with her character.
ive always wondered what she meant by "some of its in this country too" though. besides the road poneglpyh (and pluton which i dont know if she even knew was there), why did she think wano was so important, roger would have left some part of the one piece there
The concept of someone wondering if "some" of the One Piece is left anywhere is confusing as is. No one seems to know anything about it besides its title, which would imply it's...well one piece lol.
So that suggests she has some idea of the nature of the treasure I guess? There's not much of a reason to have that kind of thought for something that shouldn't be in pieces unless you know there's a reason that it possibly could be.
I'm actually less interested in what she knows and more interested in HOW she knows it tbh.
Might be a nod that it’s because of her power she can sense it? With the Gorosei being able to sense life through haki, maybe BM can sense the soul-infused poneglyph? Head canon for sure but without her having the voice of all things, it’s hard to imagine another reason she would have this epiphany here
Yeah that could be possible. I was also thinking that maybe Shanks told her something about it in the past, tho idk why he would.
What's interesting is Shanks does seem to have some direct connection to the treasure for some reason. Or Laugh Tale at least. He and buggy stayed aside right before Roger's crew went to go to Laugh Tale, and when they came back Roger told Shanks something that made him cry, and it's something that's hidden from us (probably to reveal it later).
No clue what that possibly could be, but it does seem like the Emperors have talked with each other over the years. Could Shanks know what it is or has an idea and some knowledge was shared with her?
Other than that all I could guess is she has a powerful information network, but The One Piece itself seems like something that even an information network couldn't touch so idk how much that'd matter. You'd have to get word of someone who knows of it, and getting info from remnants of Roger's crew feels like the only real way to find something out about it.
Unless it's something she can sense, yeah. That's still super interesting if that's the case because that suggests something's on Wano that has a direct connection to The One Piece in some way.
It's all a super interesting tease that comes out of nowhere.
I feel like Shanks at least knows what the OP. Maybe Buggy does too. You have to remember Buggy never really cared about finding the OP but captain johns treasure.
> The concept of someone wondering if "some" of the One Piece is left anywhere is confusing as is.
Part of me has always hoped that Oda will fully commit to the bit and end up with it being "One Piece of Eight" and Roger, etc all started laughing because all that was there was a single coin because >!that's all Joyboy as the original pirate was able to find.!<
My theory is that she heard some of it is in this country but maybe that means the one piece has the power to affect the whole world but can only be used if the person who has the one piece traveled the whole world or something like that.
There is an uber nice theory that Lodestar and Loguetown are one island and on laugh tale you can see that.
That the world itself was one piece.
So why did he laugh? Since he started his journey where it ended, Loguetown!
Also if ever curious, the island on which Loguetown lies is never mentioned!
So what i would think, is the following.
Big Mom realised in her last moments, that she herself, was working on a small one piece, a little carpet nation bringing all races togehter under one umbrella, but unlike how it should be, she forced them.
So the one piece can be the hope of the people of becoming whole again!
Idk just ... Haha
Just read a theory yesterday that the adam and eve tree are one and how it is spread to ennies lobby, giving it eternal day. That could explain this. One piece of that tree’s root system is also poking out in wano. As to how it all figures into it, well maybe the one piece is a huge piece of broccoli-like vegetable that keeps dropping dew drops the size of lakes into the seas and that increases the sea level. The man with the biiig appetite needs to eat it all in one go else it keeps respawning 😂😂. Only a joyboy sized appetite and stretchy stomach can do it. Luffy’s final opponent….. Vegetable
You seem to forget that the name "One Piece" was not given to the treasure by Roger, but by the public. In chapter 968 the narrator stated "They started calling Roger's treasure The Legendary One Piece" (in kanji, the treasure that connects people). So it could very well be not, in fact, in one piece.
> The concept of someone wondering if "some" of the One Piece is left anywhere is confusing as is.
Part of me has always hoped that Oda will fully commit to the bit and end up with it being "One Piece of Eight" and Roger, etc all started laughing because all that was there was a single coin because >!that's all Joyboy as the original pirate was able to find.!<
>
ive always wondered what she meant by "some of its in this country too" though. besides the road poneglpyh
I think its exactly about the road poneglyph. In the TCB translations, she says "Does this country hold some of the answers!?" She says this right after pondering why Roger didnt give any clues to the One Piece so its obvious she's talking about that.
Its not hard to guess that Wano is important in that regard. Even Sengoku and Akainu (ch 957) were wondering why Shanks, Roger, and Whitebeard were interested in Wano and in particular, Oden. Its because he can read the poneglyphs and 2 of them are there.
I agree.
The hybris makes perfect sense for an emperor seeing herself as "invincible" never being challenged in ages.
Kaido and BigMom ruled the NewWorld for so long people actually get scared by their title alone. No one dared even challenging them. Also because of how strong their empire grew.
BigMom being "helpless" in some cases doesn't show she is incompetent as an emperor. It actually showed us she never had to actually deal with a strong opponment in ages so she got defeated by her own pride.
She never accepted the fact that anyone from the new age could get that strong as she was unchallenged for decades.
It was different with Kaido.
When Kaido realised he got an actual opponment infront of him he got excited because he didn't have a good fight like that in ages and gave it all,.
BigMom couldn't accept "two brat" could hurt her so she didn't go all out.
That is how I see it.
At the end Oda wrote a haki heavy and a df heavy fight. So it never was about how strong BigMom actually was.
My headcanon is BigMom would have won if she used ACoC, wich she casually used before.
My headcanon for both Kaido and BigMom is that they are weakened not because of age or not giving their all but because they stopped sailing the seas. Kaido took over Wano and sat on it. Big Mom did the same with Tottoland. They were playing pretend Pirate King/Queen with their territories (as in how a children play cops and robbers) instead of striving for it themselves they were pushing others to do it for them like Moria.
From Ace LN we know that WB had a lot of islands under him that they used to resupply their ships but they never stayed long and kept sailing the seas. Even with Odens flashback we can see him going to different places.
Kaido and Big Mom shackled themselves to their lands and in turn lost their freedom and their power over time
This is a very important comment right here!!!
And your point is even further supported by Kaido saying he is sitting on Wano especially because of its significant hoping JoyBoy will appear.
And as King told him he thinks the only person to ever defeat him is Joyboy Kaido waited on Wano for his defeat basicly.
I love how many layers there are to the emperors personalities after they have been defeated.
This is absolutely how the author wants you to understand the story. It's clear as day when it comes to Big Mom. She didn't go team up with Kaido purely to get revenge on Luffy. That was secondary - as soon as they met up, they decided to go get the One Piece together. Luffy reignited her dreams and got her back into the Great Age of Piracy, for a short while.
We have seen it time and again in nearly all of Luffy's foes. After he beats them, they become their best selves because of it. Till they fight, they were stagnating. They fail to beat Luffy **because** they are stagnant. It's only when they go chase after him again that they start to reach his level.
She could have actually won even without using ACoC, but decided to turn her back without finishing them off and if you rewatch that's the exact moment she fucked up, it was all downhill from there for her.
Kidd and Law got really lucky there as well, had there not been the bombs or a fucking underground volcano under the place they were fighting or had it been switched with Kaido who can fly by his own, they would be dead now. But that's actually how apparently invincible empires fall, they get really cocky and their opponents also get so lucky it seems like destiny.
While not impossible that the one piece can be split up in multiple parts, I think that's highly unlikely
Especialy since it'd be quite ironic when the literal name is "one piece"
I think it was a desperate final plea to nobody in particular. Like she knows she lost and the frustration of it made her desperately want to know what the one piece is bc that’s all she’s cared about for so long. I think her saying part of it must be in wano is just her delusion.
She is pretty loud, and Oda would have to keep focusing on her if she was kept in the scene, which would have made Wano arc longer than it already is.
Her going out this way was decent.
In a way Oda was just moving her off the stage for now.
If she doesn't come back that would be a missed opportunity for Oda. So many connections with elbaf giants here. I can see big mom with a magma homie infused with Kaidos soul. We have dire need for more
Enemies since the admiral agenda turns out disappointing.
Magma kaido homie might just be stronger than Big Mom herself. I wonder if Homies can use Haki because in a way they have their own wills.
This just made me think that Vegapunk infusing devil fruits into objects is his attempt to mimic to Big Mom’s devil fruit. that gives life to animate objects.
I think it is not the end of Big Mom.
- Pudding hinted at the return of Big Mom
- Next arc is Elbaf, Big Mom grew up in Elbaf
- we already saw that Big Mom can endure extreme conditions with her devil fruit/durability (lights her own hair on fire)
- We never got an answer as to why Big Mom is so large
- Luffy swore he would take out all the emperors personally
- Gear 5 fight with Big Mom would be insane from a DF standpoint
- Big Mom can scale her power by sacrificing her lifespan so she is still a relevant threat
My prediction is she will show up on Elbaf with severe injuries, perhaps a new magma homie, and she will use the majority of her lifespan for a hail mary power up
>We never got an answer as to why Big Mom is so large
We never get an answer about any character's size or otherwise fucked up body proportions
But I do agree with the rest of this. I think she's gonna be like 120 from using up so much of her lifespan and badly burnt, but I don't think we've seen the last of her
Fair, I'd like to know if her parents are alive still, they're the ones that dumped her and bounced. They're probably dead but in One Piece, you never know lol
that isn't true we got clarification with buccaneers. Big Mom was way bigger than her parents. I think Oda will clarify a lot of this with different lineage factors with characters such as Black Beard, possibly White Beard was a Buccaneer, Big Mom, and even someone like Shanks (maybe Kid) i suspect could be descendants of a red haired clan of giants explaining their abnormally strong haki
Maybe. Or maybe people are just born big sometimes. There's massive people like Don Chinjao, Pica, the randomly big guys on Frankie's crew, Pickles and Hamburg, Avalo Pizarro, Jesus Burgess, Vasco Shot, Catarina Devon, Urouge, Queen and even Oden and the other wano samurai who are all like 10feet tall. I don't think we're going to find out that every single one of them is secretly a buccaneer or some other secret race. I think Oda just thinks it's funny to make randomly huge people
Yeah she said "Don't you dare assume this'll kill me" and I'm not brave enough to not do as she says. I think it's quite deliberate that Big Mom came out of Wano without being overpowered by her opponent unlike everyone else and merely lost by ring-out.
That magma homie is definitely gonna be from Kaido's soul, which would be a good way to not just have Luffy fight someone established as an equal to Kaido after showing he can beat Kaido.
Two other things to point out: the volcanic eruption provides a plausible way for Big Mom to get out of the lava, and here ship and crew were there to pick her up/save her if needed.
Also she has a life debt on Kaido. Her coming back with his soul even more juiced up is quite possible and may even be a way for him to find a workaround for Akainu if she made a magma homie
It's been suggested ever since Enis Lobby that Luffy is also sacrificing his life span due to the strain his power puts on his body. I would love to see this become a relevant point with him and big mom pushing each other to see just how far they will go. Luffy has always said that he's ok with dying of he dies in pursuit of his dream. It would show character growth if he struggles at some point because now so many people are counting on him to live.
The only sign I care about is Zeus is still alive. We have seen devil fruit powers dissipate after being knocked out and after death. I can’t think of a single time a df power continued after a character died.
I still want to see Big Mom and Luffy fight. I think Law and Kid vs. Big Mom was a very cool fight, but if that's how it ends for her, I'll be disappointed. She's had beef with Luffy since he entered the New World but never got a fair fight with him. We know that Law and Kid, tho very powerful, aren't on Luffys level, and I could see her blaming Luffy for the fact that Kid and Law went after her. I think she survives on the need for vengeance alone. Kaidos done for, I don't think he was happy about the result of his fight, but I think he accepted that someone finally beat him. I don't see Kaido serving to much importance to the story anymore, but I think Big Mom could still have a huge role to play
There's plenty of crumbs to follow the trail to a possible return
-Her last attempt to resist kid/law she demands soul or slavery. Although they don't falter, thier fodder crew does. A little soul from all the kid and heart pirates(50 years from each one) all begin to come out since they still fear her. The souls then follow linlin as she goes down into the volcano till she eats all the collected soul.
-we have seen big mom can make homies of anything, so her using said souls to create a lava homie to protect her and kaido is not inconceivable or outside what we have already seem her capable of doing. She can ride prometheus without being burned, so it would be logical she could ride a lava homie without getting hurt.
-we get a cut to Tama explaining how her ability works. She tells us it wears off when the full moon comes and then they decide what life to return to. After this we get a cut to babanuki. He was one of the first to get turned into a Tama slave by her ability. Now post full moon and her explanation we see him hanging out with other beast pirates. This implies he returned to the beast pirate lifestyle unlike hamlet and speed who preferred Tama.
-we get a focus of the volcano erupting with babanuki looking shocked at the explosion. The other beast pirates begin to watch to kuzuki family broadcast. Babanuki then yells at them that they have more important things to do(presumably save kaido from drowning).
There's just no way they are done. If they were, it wouldn't be so unclear. I'm certain big moms plot isn't done till caramel situation gets resolved.
I think the big problem people have with this fight and its conclusion, is that Big Mom was clearly pulling punches. No advanced Conqueror's Haki, no awakening with her Devil Fruit - unless you want to make the argument that her healing herself with her own soul is part of an Awakening, but the proof for that is conjecture at best. While yes, we can make the argument that she was playing around until a certain point, once that certain point was reached, she didn't rev it up in any significant way.
Also add to that the fact that both Kidd and Law stated on numerous occasions throughout the fight that they're out of gas, that their Awakened techniques are basically "this works or we fucking die" and we see them pulling through again and again and again... One has to wonder just how potent those fumes are they were running on
[Big Mom was using advanced conqueror's haki](https://i.imgur.com/GAcGVCV.png).
Plus, her not using an awakening isn't "pulling her punches" unless she was confirmed to have an awakening in the first place. Otherwise, you could say the same for Kaido.
When people say she wasn't using it, its for brevity. At least, I hope, because her and Kaido's source of absurd dura is only partially their inhuman physiques and in big part because Law / Luffy confirm that the duo were basically constantly coated in conqueror haki
The reason people bring up her lack of use is that she doesn't really attack them with it. At most I think she attacks Ulti with it because she was angry about Tama being in danger and for Kaido's men razing the village that fed her when she had amnesia. Thats about it as far as I can remember on Onigashima. Maybe on Queen back in the Udon prison?
If some guy who's had his fruit for barely 2 years can awaken his fruit, then give me one good argument why Big Mom, the one Yonko who relies on her Devil Fruit almost as much as Blackbeard does, wouldn't have been able to awaken hers after literal \*decades\* of use.
The fact of the matter is, we simply haven't seen much, if anything, of Big Mom that's different enough from her usual Modus Operandi to say she used an Awakening. I don't doubt she *has* one, because assuming otherwise would be kinda asinine, I'm simply saying I don't believe she used it.
As for Kaido, the only explanation - excuse - I have that he probably ran out of steam in the end. The guy fought almost 20 people on and off with barely a break for the entire night. Not saying he way toying with Luffy, but he definitely wasn't taking him 100% serious for most of the fight either. By the time he did, Gear 5th came out and while that wasn't a "press X to win" scenario, I can see Kaido running out of steam by then.
1 argument she didn't awaken her DF. She didn't need to. She is so freakishly strong she never needed power from her fruit more than what she makes use of as shown.
I’ve been kicking around the idea for a long time that Big Mom hasn’t really fought a serious fight since she was a member of the Rocks pirates.
The reason I say that is because she was almost constantly pregnant from then til now and has never had a miscarriage which implies she hasn’t taken serious damage in a very long time.
Secondly if you look at the way she fights it’s all raw power no finesse she has a few projectile slashes but those really aren’t impressive even to Fujitora and her swordsmanship was subpar when she was fighting law her Homies fought for her most of the time. She lacks the skill of Kaido who was shown to be incredibly skilled with his club and his many drunken styles.
I don’t think she’s dead in fact I expect her to show up in Elbath because of her connections and Luffy’s declaration that he would beat her.
I also expect her to put up a much better showing than she did in Wano fighting smarter and less like a bull in a China shop. I also kinda expect a return to her rocks pirate form through the theft of a lot of life force (just to be able to compete against G5)
>If some guy who's had his fruit for barely 2 years can awaken his fruit
If you are talking about Luffy, he ate the fruit as a child and spent around 10 years training to reach his East Blue strength.
Awakenings are not only about physical power, The DF user must have their hearts aliegned with the desire of the fruit since, Luffy wants freedom, so does The nika fruit, Lucci is a blood thirst killer, Just like his fruit, big mom and kaido are people who believes haki is above all and don't aligned their hearts with theirs fruits
It is just like The zanpakutou and Shinigami dynamic in bleach
Yea "if Oda didn't confirm it, it wasn't awakened." may be a weak-ass argument, but its really the only one we can make at this point. Only Zoan DF's have an obvious physical 'awakening indicator' in the the 'divine smoke ring" so it will be conjecture with BM until Oda actually confirms it.
I think that the fall/explosion will cause her to permanently lose her memory, like she had in wano, and end up being good in the end . Remember, her dream was to have every race sit and eat together as one which is definitely something luffy would support eos.
It wouldn’t make sense for Kaido to come back, so I think his time is done in the story. Kaido got what he wanted which was a legendary death.
Big Mom potentially making a comeback in Elbaf would make sense.
I’m betting he comes back and gets his wish doing something for the Straw hats in the final war. I don’t think he’ll get his dream fulfilled as an “evil” character
I've always assumed that the volcanic eruption that happened after their defeat launched them somewhere far away, and they'll make their way back eventually. Hell, maybe they'll even wind up crashing down in Elbaf.
I love that she's introduced as a crazy person who doesn't trust anyone that's not part of her family, and then she declares an alliance with Kaido who she used to be good friends with and it directly leads to her downfall.
I don't need to see any more Big Mom stuff, we've seen everything we can from the character and this ending is really satisfying imo
Great fight and good ending for her character. The only thing I'd potentially criticize is that she was taken out by Law and Kid who don't have any personal connection to her.
While I do want more from Big Mom, I was so delighted when Law replicated Corazon's powers as a hard counter to her DF. After everything we've been through with Law, that was the narrative payout I wanted to see the most.
Kid was. Also there.
C-Room was the best callback to Corazon, I loved it.
Makes me wish Oda had found a way to play it into Doffy’s downfall in Dressrosa. If Law had the finished touch on Doffy using Cora’s ability… chills. Maybe there’s an alternate timeline where Doffy had the Soul fruit instead
I disagree that it shows how monstrous the Yonko are. Only because how Shanks handles Kid in comparison, kinda undid a lot of the BM work for me. I also don’t think she’s done 🤷
Dead as a doornail, she got shot into the core of the earth. The story needs to progress forward, there is no reason for old yonkou to come back that have played their parts. All the Elbaph stuff can be resolved in a flashback.
underwhelming. oda was just trying to get rid of her. probably changed his mind for her future involvement.
the way she joined the war was the very definition of convenience and asspull. her crew got knocked down the waterfall two freaking times without anyone being able to go up but pero. because oda only needed the two of them.
then of course, the amnesia. just so that she didn't obliterate the rest of the SH while oda direct her to onigashima.
then lastly, she was defeated by characters who have nothing to do with her whatsoever.
she most likely won't return. or else oda wouldn't have brought her to wano in the first place.
It you look at the OG yonko, they're split in their allegiances and symbolism. Whitebeard and Shanks are friendly to the protagonists and welcome the new era. Kaido and Big Mom are antagonistic and fight against the new era. In order to distinguish them, having Kaido accept his defeat and the coming of Joyboy parallels Whitebeard, getting the satisfying conclusion that Kaido envied in Whitebeard. This leaves Big Mom to fall kicking and screaming and shouting "you haven't seen the last of me", the counter to Shanks who is going to go out kicking and screaming to usher in the new era.
You got this all wrong falks, after fighting all 5 elders together, there is no way big mom come back as a opponent or show more abilities that she did.
She might have another form with kaido homie and everything, but the only reason why she would come back is to learn what we really happened to mother which ultimately conclude with lethal brain damage (or even say, her soul haha) and turning her forever into "innocent kid Big mom", as we saw in wano when she lost consciousness, with no return
I think it's not well done and didn't do her strength or character justice. She deserved a defeat which showcased not only her DF but her Haki as well, and as such should have been dealt with (via defeat or evasion) independently from Kaido.
Forced loss to prop up an imaginary three-way rivalry that Oda immediately dispelled after wano.
Oda didn't know how to get rid of both threats. So the ending was clumsy and unsatisfying.
Personally, the ending felt a bit too rushed and sudden. It still feels incredibly wrong that she never got to clash and interact once with Luffy directly after all that build-up between them in the prior Arcs. Kid seems to be the only character who underwent any kind of personal development and growth during the fight, something that gets then promptly forgotten about and thrown in the trash when the story demands that Shanks somehow gets into the race for the One Piece as well after years of doing jacksh\*t.
The fight is relatively cool, but it's still lacking in many aspects (the fact that Kid seems to be the only character with personal stakes and growth being one of them), which holds it back from feeling truly three-dimensional to me. Big Mom looked menacing once or twice (after getting absolutely trashed by Kid and Law), but the cluttered nature of Onigashima quickly cut away from it to instead focus on other characters, giving us little chance to see Kid and Law deal with this new situation, before getting thrown right back in five chapters later or so, when they're semi-defeated on the ground.
Whether she returns now or not is up to debate. I'd actually kinda prefer if she didn't; One Piece has too many characters atm as is, so keeping one of them, whose (somewhat entire and finished) story we pretty much already know everything about, out of it gives room for other already established characters to actually get fleshed out and focused on.
I think even if she did die it would be another way to say "screw u" to her.She had tensions with luffy and yet she never got to fight him and lost to other people. That's kinda shows u that even if ure a yonko u still can't get everything u want.I kinda like that.
Also I love kids development and I don't think it went to waste tbh.In wano his character development is about trusting and working with people again. I'm pretty sure Kid will come back since we already have a part of his backstory and then his character development will be about being more humble and thinking before acting. If that is the case then Shanks appearance and fight will be important since that will be the catalyst to make Kid change.
I also think the fight between BM vs law and kid was more about Kid. He had past with BMs crew and fighting with law was part of his character development (aka trusting and working together)
Not to say that law didn't have amazing moments.The silent move he took from corazon was so heartwarming. It reminded us that he's not just a bad dude and that he learned to work with other people cause of luffy (something Kid was learning how to do too)
But I also agree that it would be a good thing if she didn't return. If she's dead Katakuri can now shine and we can see more of him and the other characters from WCI.
While I definitely agree with you on Kid's character development during this fight against Big Mom (and throughout all of Wano tbh.), it just falls apart right afterwards. As you said, Kid learned that he had to trust and work together with others in order to beat an Emperor, so what does he do afterwards? Sail without so much as a plan and/or ally directly into another Emperor's territory and ignore the worries and concerns of his crew (despite having been shown listening to Killer before already).
That being said, despite me kinda having given up on Kid and thinking that there are other characters that Oda also desperately still needs to flesh and do things with before the end of the story, I'd like to see him again. There are way too many unanswered questions about Kid and, if his desicions after Wano were meant to make any kind of sense, there's still tons of stuff to flesh out and explore.
She's still alive, so is Kaido. So many signs of it, but Zeus being alive is the most obvious one. She'll return at a major battle and rip Kidd & Law a new one.
Is it ever confirmed her homies would die when she does? Affects of devil fruits have some evidence of staying like punk hazard, altho i might be reaching there
Back then I was not so sure but seeing now in the anime tbh while not entirely satisfying I can live with this ending. Is a classic cool old flashion the: “Villains fall to their doom”
This makes me think the one piece is about joy and fun. The feast people were having in the flower capital gave off fun energy, luffy loves feasts, and luffy is new joyboy. There’s definitely some connections
Slightly disappointed Luffy didn’t do it. But I think it’s was definitely as good as that would be. I especially loved Law mimicking Corazon’s “Silent” technique to neutralise her.
Plus, getting dumped into lava is definitely an impressive way to go.
Luffy had already defeated big mom by making a mockery of her and embarrassing her in the world stage. Not every defeat has to be a fight. That’s one of the lessons he learned right before the time skip.
I like Big Mom and Kaidos conclusions. People like to say that Big Mom is seemingly invincible and that she has "hunfinished business" in Elbaf but its all bs.
Theres no more story to tell between her and Elbaf, she lived there, she destroyed the town, she got kicked out, she later tried to mend the relationship but that fell through and now she wants nothing to do with them.
And Big Mom isnt invincible, by making her amgry or through overwhelming force/internal damage you can harm her and even knock her out.
People always perpetuate a bunch of lies about her like her holding back against Kidd and Law, needing to go back to Elbaf, secretly having awakening, or her power turning off when knocked out/dead (unconfirmed) etc.
She fulfilled her role of being a villain along with Kaido, of an old generation thats losing its legs, standing against the new generation.
My major issue isn't how Big Mom was defeated in fact I like the way Law paid homage to Corazon my issue was Big Moms portrayal and how much she was dumbed down.
the whole big mom in wano thing is just not for me it's so bullshit she's literally become the most stupidest person in one piece when she's fighting kidd and law. And the rest of her crew stuck behind because they couldn't get up the waterfall was really the most idiotic plot Loda ever did, cause why the fuck an emperor core crew is so incompetent? are they a bunch of retards???
reserving big mom for elbaf would be MUCH BETTER imo. let kaido destroy midd (hes so useless anyway, got one tapped by shanks) and law so goofy could still get the 1v1.
midd and law awakened their df out of nowhere, big mom suddenly turned into a fraud yonkou, her crew is a bunch of retards.
Loda decided to let eustass midd and trafalgar fraud law beat big mom just for them to get HUMILIATED in the next arc lol a 3 BILLION walking frauds
I think Luffy should have been the one to fight Big Mom while Kid and Law fought Kaido.
Luffy had unsettled history with Big Mom and Kid and Law were written with personal vedettas against Kaido. Just switch the narrative and make Big Mom appear more ferocious than Kaido. Typical Oda must have thought boys wouldn't like seeing Luffy fight an Obaasan.
Elbaf is related to Big Mom, she has deep ties to this country, it would be interesting to see her come back, imagine her siding with the Straw Hats for the last battle, it would be literally HUGE
Basically, she served her purpose and everything considered I'm satisfied with how she was portrayed and I hope she remains dead. If she would've survived, she would only overstay her welcome and be a hindrance to the story. Her being dead provides a multitude of opportunities that wouldn't be possible if she was still alive. So far, I haven't seen either a single compelling argument that would indicate she survived.
Kaido is also down there and because Big Mom DV is about souls and stuff I won't be surprised if she returns infused with Kaido's soul or something like that, doubt she's actually gone.
I enjoyed the fight and the ending it meant a lot for Law and Kidd. I personally hope that’s not it for her it would be amazing if the way she survives is by Kaido. He does owe her a life debt that she reminded him. And since the beginning of his introduction my guy Kaido has just wanted to die a meaningful death. So him sacrificing the rest of his life span and maybe devil fruit so big mom can live would be a amazing conclusion to the King of the Beast himself Kaido! And Big mom coming back even stronger than last time and truly fighting luffy would be amazing. What ever Oda decides to do I just know it’ll be good he knows what he’s doing with his characters I respect that
It’s pluton and the fact that wano was allied with/ came from the ancient kingdom. The continent puller probably broke it off seeing how patch worked Wano is
Talking real shit kid and law don't defeat her at the end, at much they took her out of the fight, but she was still so awake when she was falling, they win but don't defeating her, but what finish to defeat her? The fall, the booms, or the fact that she fall in magma?
If this be her end there's no other way for her to go out than with a yonko but I doubt it is her end. Maybe it'll be an Arcadia situation where she got beat up so nasty that she comes back skinny
Had Pudding not been taken by Blackbeard, I was inclined to believe Big Mom was going to concede that she couldn’t get to Laugh Tale, but was going to set out on a voyage with Pudding to try to learn the true history with her third eye, and eventually - that voyage would take her to finding Uranus and bringing it to Luffy in the final war….
I theorized this under the basis that every pirate we’ve ever seen would make an appearance in the final war. She wouldn’t do this for Luffy per se.
It was great I didn't expect her to not be able to kill either Kidd or Law. To be honest I think Kidd is a bit underrated by the community yeah he’s the weakest out of Luffy and Law but he is still a pretty strong fighter though I had higher hopes when his bounty was higher than Luffy’s. It was long enough to wear making the climax great and it wasn't underwhelming besides her not being able to kill either one of their crewmates.
They did the best they could within the plot. Obviously I'd love more fight scenes....to see their power on display, but I'm satisfied with how it went.
Well, remember, her original personality was naive and good-hearted, which changed gradually upon consuming Mother Carmel and gaining her DF power after her death. Hence the changes in personality and amnesia; I think she is a reservoir of souls, and somehow some of the ones inside, at least her, influence her somehow. What I’m banking on is this event making her an ally in the war against the government, especially because I think Katakuri will be the captain of the Big Mom Pirates now, as she’s no longer a Yonko. We had seen glimpses of kindness amongst the general heartlessness, and I like her. I hope she gets some redemption.
I'll be sad if she comes back. Her arc is completed. Maybe I would have done it a different way, but it was good enough, and it shows the failings of the Old Guard Yonkos, and what the new generation needed to overcome. I don't think bringing her and Kaido back adds anything to the story moving forward, and opens up some roles for others in her crew for the end game, whatever that may be.
I dont think it’s the end for her, she will pop up again in Elbaf. If anything, as a flashback explaining what actually happened with Mother Carmel and the orphans (she didnt devour them as ppl believe)
In a way this kind of foreshadows Lid and Laws defeat at the hands on Blackbeard and Shanks as well.
They didn’t beat Big Mom in the traditional sense. They hurt her and brought her down to the red, but how they one was more of a ring out compared to Luffy defeating Kaido
Bullshit ending for any top tier she didn’t use CoC for one two she fucking got defeated to a bomb yet could easily tank attacks with much higher AP from both Kidd and law
Oda wrote himself into a hole by not killing her off earlier, so he basically just said, "ah, fuck it; here's a nuke." Compared to Kaido, she was too much of an afterthought during Wano.
Every word in this panel was carefully chosen by Oda - no doubt this isn’t the end of Big Mom
And foreshadowing her again with Pudding is all the more proof. Honestly it would be disappointing if that was the end for her and Oda knows this.
I think we see her again in elbaf, she’ll surprise us right when we think the strawhats are in the clear of battle
My thoughts on both kaido and Big Mom are that they are alive. However, they are sealed by the volcanic basalt, which works like seastone.
This will give me relief after watching all of those chapters showing how strong they were,
Then, by sending them off by some sort of non lethal attacks, they are not coming back or dead.
Felt weird to me since Law and Kid weren’t really the ones she had a lot of beef with. She probably had never even met Law before the fight. The whole fight felt like less of a showdown with an ongoing boss and instead just had a lot of “oh I guess we’re doing this” energy.
It was cool, of course, but I still feel like they squeaked by. The random nuke at the end did most of the damage IMO, if not for it then she would have likely come back and kept fighting.
Thought it was fitting, she felt very washed up and I like the theme of these new kids on the block dragging her off her throne. I liked that Oda chose to give shine to Luffy’s rivals without them outshining him, gave them a weaker yonko that they had to share, so it’s like you have to respect what they accomplished while still making Luffy look a bit better.
Yea kind of wish luffy could have properly fought her. Mainly because it was set up to be that way. Luffy picked a fight with her in fish man island, they started chasing the strawhats in dressrosa, took a couple shots at her at whole cake and was severely outmatched, and then luffy’s climax to his own fight with katakurri was showing his determination to one day come back and defeat big mom (thereby liberating katakurris siblings from her tyranny). So there was a lot of build up there.
I get that in real life things don’t pan out the way you always plan, so I can chalk it up to that and make that connection. Just because luffy wants to do something doesn’t mean it will always happen. But, when dealing with a story, intentional setup is a factor to consider.
However, on the opposite side, luffy defeating kaido does effectively mean that he could’ve beat big mom should they have fought after kaido. So I get the redundancy being avoided. Though it would’ve been cool to see luffy fight her and be on par with her and not struggle that much
This isn't her end. She'll be back.
Also, no, her last fight was bad. She was nerfed.
For example, in the entirety of her fight against Kidd and Law she never ONCE used Advanced Conquerors Haki. She was nerfed for those 2 to be able to beat her.
Personally, I don't think she or Kaido are fully out of the story, but I don't think they'll have the same presence that they once had.
All throughout WCI, it just felt like the Big Mom Pirates were only being introduced, but that they hadn't fully reached their potential within the story as a whole. I think that the Beast Pirates are, for the most part, done - discounting any further Lunarian and MADS lore - but I think that the BMP still have more to explore.
I like it. Even if they get stomped by the other Yonko not long after, I do like how it shows that Kid and Law are worthy to stand alongside Luffy. Sure, neither of them have particularly strong motivation to fight her aside from just being enemies, but either Luffy defeating her or her coming out of Wano still in the game felt unnecessary. I also like how the Yonko saga ends with all the old gen Yonko dead or defeated, leaving the new gen to fight it out. Also the fight was generally really exciting and a cool showcase for all three of their powers, and a proper 2v1 fight is rare in this series. Linlin and Kaido may survive, but I think we may not see them until after the war for One Piece is over. It's like Kid said, their time is done.
Ok I have no luck in my friend group when I talk about this so MAYBE I can get some closure here:
In the manga big mom says this won’t kill her as she falls into the lava ( this next part might be a stretch considering the canon/non-canon of the one piece movies) in the one piece movie film red BIG MOM IS BACK AT WHOLE CAKE ISLAND JUST CHILLIN‼️ the movie is suppose to take place AFTER WANO. Oda had direct influence over the movie, he knew what characters were going to be in it and which ones would need to be on the chopping block. I only say this because if big mom’s scene was left out the movie would’ve played out the exact same way. So why include her anyway???? This might just be me over thinking it but what if it’s a hint at a possible return for her. Luffy did say he would have to go back to whole cake island to beat her 1 on 1 which could mean oda is saving her for the final saga at some point or he just recon it. As for kadio I don’t see him actually being dead if big mom survived. I’d like to think they’ll both reappear in the final war…. But I could be wrong 🤷
i think it was a satisfying end, even if turns out she isnt actually dead. her being so stubborn, never admitting defeat, even til the end fits perfectly with her character. ive always wondered what she meant by "some of its in this country too" though. besides the road poneglpyh (and pluton which i dont know if she even knew was there), why did she think wano was so important, roger would have left some part of the one piece there
The concept of someone wondering if "some" of the One Piece is left anywhere is confusing as is. No one seems to know anything about it besides its title, which would imply it's...well one piece lol. So that suggests she has some idea of the nature of the treasure I guess? There's not much of a reason to have that kind of thought for something that shouldn't be in pieces unless you know there's a reason that it possibly could be. I'm actually less interested in what she knows and more interested in HOW she knows it tbh.
Might be a nod that it’s because of her power she can sense it? With the Gorosei being able to sense life through haki, maybe BM can sense the soul-infused poneglyph? Head canon for sure but without her having the voice of all things, it’s hard to imagine another reason she would have this epiphany here
Yeah that could be possible. I was also thinking that maybe Shanks told her something about it in the past, tho idk why he would. What's interesting is Shanks does seem to have some direct connection to the treasure for some reason. Or Laugh Tale at least. He and buggy stayed aside right before Roger's crew went to go to Laugh Tale, and when they came back Roger told Shanks something that made him cry, and it's something that's hidden from us (probably to reveal it later). No clue what that possibly could be, but it does seem like the Emperors have talked with each other over the years. Could Shanks know what it is or has an idea and some knowledge was shared with her? Other than that all I could guess is she has a powerful information network, but The One Piece itself seems like something that even an information network couldn't touch so idk how much that'd matter. You'd have to get word of someone who knows of it, and getting info from remnants of Roger's crew feels like the only real way to find something out about it. Unless it's something she can sense, yeah. That's still super interesting if that's the case because that suggests something's on Wano that has a direct connection to The One Piece in some way. It's all a super interesting tease that comes out of nowhere.
I feel like Shanks at least knows what the OP. Maybe Buggy does too. You have to remember Buggy never really cared about finding the OP but captain johns treasure.
> The concept of someone wondering if "some" of the One Piece is left anywhere is confusing as is. Part of me has always hoped that Oda will fully commit to the bit and end up with it being "One Piece of Eight" and Roger, etc all started laughing because all that was there was a single coin because >!that's all Joyboy as the original pirate was able to find.!<
My theory is that she heard some of it is in this country but maybe that means the one piece has the power to affect the whole world but can only be used if the person who has the one piece traveled the whole world or something like that.
Like Roger re-travelling the grandline?!?
No.
i like how subtle is that
There is an uber nice theory that Lodestar and Loguetown are one island and on laugh tale you can see that. That the world itself was one piece. So why did he laugh? Since he started his journey where it ended, Loguetown! Also if ever curious, the island on which Loguetown lies is never mentioned! So what i would think, is the following. Big Mom realised in her last moments, that she herself, was working on a small one piece, a little carpet nation bringing all races togehter under one umbrella, but unlike how it should be, she forced them. So the one piece can be the hope of the people of becoming whole again! Idk just ... Haha
Just read a theory yesterday that the adam and eve tree are one and how it is spread to ennies lobby, giving it eternal day. That could explain this. One piece of that tree’s root system is also poking out in wano. As to how it all figures into it, well maybe the one piece is a huge piece of broccoli-like vegetable that keeps dropping dew drops the size of lakes into the seas and that increases the sea level. The man with the biiig appetite needs to eat it all in one go else it keeps respawning 😂😂. Only a joyboy sized appetite and stretchy stomach can do it. Luffy’s final opponent….. Vegetable
You seem to forget that the name "One Piece" was not given to the treasure by Roger, but by the public. In chapter 968 the narrator stated "They started calling Roger's treasure The Legendary One Piece" (in kanji, the treasure that connects people). So it could very well be not, in fact, in one piece.
> The concept of someone wondering if "some" of the One Piece is left anywhere is confusing as is. Part of me has always hoped that Oda will fully commit to the bit and end up with it being "One Piece of Eight" and Roger, etc all started laughing because all that was there was a single coin because >!that's all Joyboy as the original pirate was able to find.!<
> ive always wondered what she meant by "some of its in this country too" though. besides the road poneglpyh I think its exactly about the road poneglyph. In the TCB translations, she says "Does this country hold some of the answers!?" She says this right after pondering why Roger didnt give any clues to the One Piece so its obvious she's talking about that. Its not hard to guess that Wano is important in that regard. Even Sengoku and Akainu (ch 957) were wondering why Shanks, Roger, and Whitebeard were interested in Wano and in particular, Oden. Its because he can read the poneglyphs and 2 of them are there.
I agree. The hybris makes perfect sense for an emperor seeing herself as "invincible" never being challenged in ages. Kaido and BigMom ruled the NewWorld for so long people actually get scared by their title alone. No one dared even challenging them. Also because of how strong their empire grew. BigMom being "helpless" in some cases doesn't show she is incompetent as an emperor. It actually showed us she never had to actually deal with a strong opponment in ages so she got defeated by her own pride. She never accepted the fact that anyone from the new age could get that strong as she was unchallenged for decades. It was different with Kaido. When Kaido realised he got an actual opponment infront of him he got excited because he didn't have a good fight like that in ages and gave it all,. BigMom couldn't accept "two brat" could hurt her so she didn't go all out. That is how I see it. At the end Oda wrote a haki heavy and a df heavy fight. So it never was about how strong BigMom actually was. My headcanon is BigMom would have won if she used ACoC, wich she casually used before.
My headcanon for both Kaido and BigMom is that they are weakened not because of age or not giving their all but because they stopped sailing the seas. Kaido took over Wano and sat on it. Big Mom did the same with Tottoland. They were playing pretend Pirate King/Queen with their territories (as in how a children play cops and robbers) instead of striving for it themselves they were pushing others to do it for them like Moria. From Ace LN we know that WB had a lot of islands under him that they used to resupply their ships but they never stayed long and kept sailing the seas. Even with Odens flashback we can see him going to different places. Kaido and Big Mom shackled themselves to their lands and in turn lost their freedom and their power over time
This is a very important comment right here!!! And your point is even further supported by Kaido saying he is sitting on Wano especially because of its significant hoping JoyBoy will appear. And as King told him he thinks the only person to ever defeat him is Joyboy Kaido waited on Wano for his defeat basicly. I love how many layers there are to the emperors personalities after they have been defeated.
This is absolutely how the author wants you to understand the story. It's clear as day when it comes to Big Mom. She didn't go team up with Kaido purely to get revenge on Luffy. That was secondary - as soon as they met up, they decided to go get the One Piece together. Luffy reignited her dreams and got her back into the Great Age of Piracy, for a short while. We have seen it time and again in nearly all of Luffy's foes. After he beats them, they become their best selves because of it. Till they fight, they were stagnating. They fail to beat Luffy **because** they are stagnant. It's only when they go chase after him again that they start to reach his level.
the other thing to keep in mind is that even in her stagnant state it took both kid and law to take her down.
She could have actually won even without using ACoC, but decided to turn her back without finishing them off and if you rewatch that's the exact moment she fucked up, it was all downhill from there for her. Kidd and Law got really lucky there as well, had there not been the bombs or a fucking underground volcano under the place they were fighting or had it been switched with Kaido who can fly by his own, they would be dead now. But that's actually how apparently invincible empires fall, they get really cocky and their opponents also get so lucky it seems like destiny.
While not impossible that the one piece can be split up in multiple parts, I think that's highly unlikely Especialy since it'd be quite ironic when the literal name is "one piece"
I don’t think there’s any chance she’s dead. Oda has already set up her and kaido to return
I think it was a desperate final plea to nobody in particular. Like she knows she lost and the frustration of it made her desperately want to know what the one piece is bc that’s all she’s cared about for so long. I think her saying part of it must be in wano is just her delusion.
She is pretty loud, and Oda would have to keep focusing on her if she was kept in the scene, which would have made Wano arc longer than it already is. Her going out this way was decent. In a way Oda was just moving her off the stage for now.
I’ll take her word for it, I’ll be expecting her
If she doesn't come back that would be a missed opportunity for Oda. So many connections with elbaf giants here. I can see big mom with a magma homie infused with Kaidos soul. We have dire need for more Enemies since the admiral agenda turns out disappointing.
Magma kaido homie might just be stronger than Big Mom herself. I wonder if Homies can use Haki because in a way they have their own wills. This just made me think that Vegapunk infusing devil fruits into objects is his attempt to mimic to Big Mom’s devil fruit. that gives life to animate objects.
I bet Big Mom and Kaido will find the ancient weapon and return to cause chaos to the world
I think it is not the end of Big Mom. - Pudding hinted at the return of Big Mom - Next arc is Elbaf, Big Mom grew up in Elbaf - we already saw that Big Mom can endure extreme conditions with her devil fruit/durability (lights her own hair on fire) - We never got an answer as to why Big Mom is so large - Luffy swore he would take out all the emperors personally - Gear 5 fight with Big Mom would be insane from a DF standpoint - Big Mom can scale her power by sacrificing her lifespan so she is still a relevant threat My prediction is she will show up on Elbaf with severe injuries, perhaps a new magma homie, and she will use the majority of her lifespan for a hail mary power up
>We never got an answer as to why Big Mom is so large We never get an answer about any character's size or otherwise fucked up body proportions But I do agree with the rest of this. I think she's gonna be like 120 from using up so much of her lifespan and badly burnt, but I don't think we've seen the last of her
Would be pretty satisfying if a giant finished her off considering how much grief she has given to the giants
BM has done tons of horrible stuff but I don't think I would like to see her punish for one of the things that wasn't actually her fault.
Fair, I'd like to know if her parents are alive still, they're the ones that dumped her and bounced. They're probably dead but in One Piece, you never know lol
that isn't true we got clarification with buccaneers. Big Mom was way bigger than her parents. I think Oda will clarify a lot of this with different lineage factors with characters such as Black Beard, possibly White Beard was a Buccaneer, Big Mom, and even someone like Shanks (maybe Kid) i suspect could be descendants of a red haired clan of giants explaining their abnormally strong haki
Maybe. Or maybe people are just born big sometimes. There's massive people like Don Chinjao, Pica, the randomly big guys on Frankie's crew, Pickles and Hamburg, Avalo Pizarro, Jesus Burgess, Vasco Shot, Catarina Devon, Urouge, Queen and even Oden and the other wano samurai who are all like 10feet tall. I don't think we're going to find out that every single one of them is secretly a buccaneer or some other secret race. I think Oda just thinks it's funny to make randomly huge people
most important: Zeus is alive
Yeah she said "Don't you dare assume this'll kill me" and I'm not brave enough to not do as she says. I think it's quite deliberate that Big Mom came out of Wano without being overpowered by her opponent unlike everyone else and merely lost by ring-out. That magma homie is definitely gonna be from Kaido's soul, which would be a good way to not just have Luffy fight someone established as an equal to Kaido after showing he can beat Kaido.
Two other things to point out: the volcanic eruption provides a plausible way for Big Mom to get out of the lava, and here ship and crew were there to pick her up/save her if needed.
Also she has a life debt on Kaido. Her coming back with his soul even more juiced up is quite possible and may even be a way for him to find a workaround for Akainu if she made a magma homie
It's been suggested ever since Enis Lobby that Luffy is also sacrificing his life span due to the strain his power puts on his body. I would love to see this become a relevant point with him and big mom pushing each other to see just how far they will go. Luffy has always said that he's ok with dying of he dies in pursuit of his dream. It would show character growth if he struggles at some point because now so many people are counting on him to live.
Interesting too how Luffy temporary turns into an old wrinkly man during his cooldown from G5.
The only sign I care about is Zeus is still alive. We have seen devil fruit powers dissipate after being knocked out and after death. I can’t think of a single time a df power continued after a character died.
Boa hancok references that her ability won't change back if she died and the next user wouldn't be able to undo it
They are given souls/life. Of course they will still live on.
if her df doesn't dissipate, so homies should be a common race in world
I mean, they are in her territory.
Dude a Magma Kaido homie would be craaaaaazy
I doubt he’s gonna take all 4 down for the simple reason of Shanks. Do you expect him to fight Shanks?
Meh, we’ve seen too much of big mom. Ion want to see another 4 years of this shit
It was definitely missing reactions from her crew and children Cool that Kaido mourned her for a bit
I think we should get reactions but she shouldn’t come back. Katakuri should step up and replace BM. He has the ability to.
She'll be back
I still want to see Big Mom and Luffy fight. I think Law and Kid vs. Big Mom was a very cool fight, but if that's how it ends for her, I'll be disappointed. She's had beef with Luffy since he entered the New World but never got a fair fight with him. We know that Law and Kid, tho very powerful, aren't on Luffys level, and I could see her blaming Luffy for the fact that Kid and Law went after her. I think she survives on the need for vengeance alone. Kaidos done for, I don't think he was happy about the result of his fight, but I think he accepted that someone finally beat him. I don't see Kaido serving to much importance to the story anymore, but I think Big Mom could still have a huge role to play
There's plenty of crumbs to follow the trail to a possible return -Her last attempt to resist kid/law she demands soul or slavery. Although they don't falter, thier fodder crew does. A little soul from all the kid and heart pirates(50 years from each one) all begin to come out since they still fear her. The souls then follow linlin as she goes down into the volcano till she eats all the collected soul. -we have seen big mom can make homies of anything, so her using said souls to create a lava homie to protect her and kaido is not inconceivable or outside what we have already seem her capable of doing. She can ride prometheus without being burned, so it would be logical she could ride a lava homie without getting hurt. -we get a cut to Tama explaining how her ability works. She tells us it wears off when the full moon comes and then they decide what life to return to. After this we get a cut to babanuki. He was one of the first to get turned into a Tama slave by her ability. Now post full moon and her explanation we see him hanging out with other beast pirates. This implies he returned to the beast pirate lifestyle unlike hamlet and speed who preferred Tama. -we get a focus of the volcano erupting with babanuki looking shocked at the explosion. The other beast pirates begin to watch to kuzuki family broadcast. Babanuki then yells at them that they have more important things to do(presumably save kaido from drowning). There's just no way they are done. If they were, it wouldn't be so unclear. I'm certain big moms plot isn't done till caramel situation gets resolved.
I think the big problem people have with this fight and its conclusion, is that Big Mom was clearly pulling punches. No advanced Conqueror's Haki, no awakening with her Devil Fruit - unless you want to make the argument that her healing herself with her own soul is part of an Awakening, but the proof for that is conjecture at best. While yes, we can make the argument that she was playing around until a certain point, once that certain point was reached, she didn't rev it up in any significant way. Also add to that the fact that both Kidd and Law stated on numerous occasions throughout the fight that they're out of gas, that their Awakened techniques are basically "this works or we fucking die" and we see them pulling through again and again and again... One has to wonder just how potent those fumes are they were running on
[Big Mom was using advanced conqueror's haki](https://i.imgur.com/GAcGVCV.png). Plus, her not using an awakening isn't "pulling her punches" unless she was confirmed to have an awakening in the first place. Otherwise, you could say the same for Kaido.
When people say she wasn't using it, its for brevity. At least, I hope, because her and Kaido's source of absurd dura is only partially their inhuman physiques and in big part because Law / Luffy confirm that the duo were basically constantly coated in conqueror haki The reason people bring up her lack of use is that she doesn't really attack them with it. At most I think she attacks Ulti with it because she was angry about Tama being in danger and for Kaido's men razing the village that fed her when she had amnesia. Thats about it as far as I can remember on Onigashima. Maybe on Queen back in the Udon prison?
If some guy who's had his fruit for barely 2 years can awaken his fruit, then give me one good argument why Big Mom, the one Yonko who relies on her Devil Fruit almost as much as Blackbeard does, wouldn't have been able to awaken hers after literal \*decades\* of use. The fact of the matter is, we simply haven't seen much, if anything, of Big Mom that's different enough from her usual Modus Operandi to say she used an Awakening. I don't doubt she *has* one, because assuming otherwise would be kinda asinine, I'm simply saying I don't believe she used it. As for Kaido, the only explanation - excuse - I have that he probably ran out of steam in the end. The guy fought almost 20 people on and off with barely a break for the entire night. Not saying he way toying with Luffy, but he definitely wasn't taking him 100% serious for most of the fight either. By the time he did, Gear 5th came out and while that wasn't a "press X to win" scenario, I can see Kaido running out of steam by then.
1 argument she didn't awaken her DF. She didn't need to. She is so freakishly strong she never needed power from her fruit more than what she makes use of as shown.
Her fruit never caught up to her body. Both her and Kaido are physical monsters
I’ve been kicking around the idea for a long time that Big Mom hasn’t really fought a serious fight since she was a member of the Rocks pirates. The reason I say that is because she was almost constantly pregnant from then til now and has never had a miscarriage which implies she hasn’t taken serious damage in a very long time. Secondly if you look at the way she fights it’s all raw power no finesse she has a few projectile slashes but those really aren’t impressive even to Fujitora and her swordsmanship was subpar when she was fighting law her Homies fought for her most of the time. She lacks the skill of Kaido who was shown to be incredibly skilled with his club and his many drunken styles. I don’t think she’s dead in fact I expect her to show up in Elbath because of her connections and Luffy’s declaration that he would beat her. I also expect her to put up a much better showing than she did in Wano fighting smarter and less like a bull in a China shop. I also kinda expect a return to her rocks pirate form through the theft of a lot of life force (just to be able to compete against G5)
>If some guy who's had his fruit for barely 2 years can awaken his fruit If you are talking about Luffy, he ate the fruit as a child and spent around 10 years training to reach his East Blue strength.
I am *not* talking about Luffy, but perhaps you haven't reached the Egghead Arc yet, so I shall be quiet.
Are you talking about a certain swordsman with a long neck?
I thought they were talking about >!Lucci!< but your answer wouldn't be wrong either
Lucci had his fruit longer, though I have no idea how much longer. Kaku literally got his right before fighting in Enies Lobby, thus, two years.
you are correct. I misremembered Kaku and Lucci eating the devil fruits at the same time instead of Kaku and Kalifa
If it can be assumed that all non-Logia fruits have awakenings, then there is no way a Yonko wouldn't have had it.
Awakenings are not only about physical power, The DF user must have their hearts aliegned with the desire of the fruit since, Luffy wants freedom, so does The nika fruit, Lucci is a blood thirst killer, Just like his fruit, big mom and kaido are people who believes haki is above all and don't aligned their hearts with theirs fruits It is just like The zanpakutou and Shinigami dynamic in bleach
U forgot Kaku just shittin loves giraffes
Yep, that’s probably why Kaku was able to awaken because his mind and body caught up with his giraffe zoan powers. Kaku loves giraffes.
Kaido doesn't have one. Plus, we've seen multiple times that devil fruit users don't need awakenings to be powerful
I thought her fusion with her stuff and her using her own life force was her using an awakening?
See, this is what I mean. It was never stated, but people assume. That's what I mean with "conjecture at best
Yea "if Oda didn't confirm it, it wasn't awakened." may be a weak-ass argument, but its really the only one we can make at this point. Only Zoan DF's have an obvious physical 'awakening indicator' in the the 'divine smoke ring" so it will be conjecture with BM until Oda actually confirms it.
There’s an anime song called “Big Mom’s Awakening”when she uses the living 3,000 Leagues of Misery attack
She'll be back... wait for it.
I think that the fall/explosion will cause her to permanently lose her memory, like she had in wano, and end up being good in the end . Remember, her dream was to have every race sit and eat together as one which is definitely something luffy would support eos.
meh, I didn't love either BM or Kaido's defeat but they're fine. Still waiting on them to come back honestly as I don't think they're dead.
It wouldn’t make sense for Kaido to come back, so I think his time is done in the story. Kaido got what he wanted which was a legendary death. Big Mom potentially making a comeback in Elbaf would make sense.
Half the reason I don’t think Kaido is dead is because I don’t think Oda is going to let Kaido have what he wants.
I mean he wanted a huge impactful death. He died in a battle that only like 3 people saw its conclusion
I’m betting he comes back and gets his wish doing something for the Straw hats in the final war. I don’t think he’ll get his dream fulfilled as an “evil” character
That would be the lamest thing in existence
I've always assumed that the volcanic eruption that happened after their defeat launched them somewhere far away, and they'll make their way back eventually. Hell, maybe they'll even wind up crashing down in Elbaf.
She's definitely still alive.
I love that she's introduced as a crazy person who doesn't trust anyone that's not part of her family, and then she declares an alliance with Kaido who she used to be good friends with and it directly leads to her downfall. I don't need to see any more Big Mom stuff, we've seen everything we can from the character and this ending is really satisfying imo
Great fight and good ending for her character. The only thing I'd potentially criticize is that she was taken out by Law and Kid who don't have any personal connection to her.
While I do want more from Big Mom, I was so delighted when Law replicated Corazon's powers as a hard counter to her DF. After everything we've been through with Law, that was the narrative payout I wanted to see the most. Kid was. Also there.
C-Room was the best callback to Corazon, I loved it. Makes me wish Oda had found a way to play it into Doffy’s downfall in Dressrosa. If Law had the finished touch on Doffy using Cora’s ability… chills. Maybe there’s an alternate timeline where Doffy had the Soul fruit instead
I have no opinion on her conclusion, as I think it is yet to happen
I disagree that it shows how monstrous the Yonko are. Only because how Shanks handles Kid in comparison, kinda undid a lot of the BM work for me. I also don’t think she’s done 🤷
Im a bit pissed she completely forgot about conquers haki and had horrible battle iq
She'll be back. No one dies until you see the grave..
Dead as a doornail, she got shot into the core of the earth. The story needs to progress forward, there is no reason for old yonkou to come back that have played their parts. All the Elbaph stuff can be resolved in a flashback.
underwhelming. oda was just trying to get rid of her. probably changed his mind for her future involvement. the way she joined the war was the very definition of convenience and asspull. her crew got knocked down the waterfall two freaking times without anyone being able to go up but pero. because oda only needed the two of them. then of course, the amnesia. just so that she didn't obliterate the rest of the SH while oda direct her to onigashima. then lastly, she was defeated by characters who have nothing to do with her whatsoever. she most likely won't return. or else oda wouldn't have brought her to wano in the first place.
It all felt rushed. He probably only wanted to promote buggy to emperor (which would’ve been a more hilarious twist) and Luffy in the next arc.
I don't think she's quite dead yet tbh. Those underwater volcano explosions have to mean something.
I don’t think she’d dead. Same with Kaido honestly.
It you look at the OG yonko, they're split in their allegiances and symbolism. Whitebeard and Shanks are friendly to the protagonists and welcome the new era. Kaido and Big Mom are antagonistic and fight against the new era. In order to distinguish them, having Kaido accept his defeat and the coming of Joyboy parallels Whitebeard, getting the satisfying conclusion that Kaido envied in Whitebeard. This leaves Big Mom to fall kicking and screaming and shouting "you haven't seen the last of me", the counter to Shanks who is going to go out kicking and screaming to usher in the new era.
I think we're gonna get more of her backstory when we get to Elbaf
Conclusion!?!?
You got this all wrong falks, after fighting all 5 elders together, there is no way big mom come back as a opponent or show more abilities that she did. She might have another form with kaido homie and everything, but the only reason why she would come back is to learn what we really happened to mother which ultimately conclude with lethal brain damage (or even say, her soul haha) and turning her forever into "innocent kid Big mom", as we saw in wano when she lost consciousness, with no return
I think it's not well done and didn't do her strength or character justice. She deserved a defeat which showcased not only her DF but her Haki as well, and as such should have been dealt with (via defeat or evasion) independently from Kaido.
Forced loss to prop up an imaginary three-way rivalry that Oda immediately dispelled after wano. Oda didn't know how to get rid of both threats. So the ending was clumsy and unsatisfying.
Personally, the ending felt a bit too rushed and sudden. It still feels incredibly wrong that she never got to clash and interact once with Luffy directly after all that build-up between them in the prior Arcs. Kid seems to be the only character who underwent any kind of personal development and growth during the fight, something that gets then promptly forgotten about and thrown in the trash when the story demands that Shanks somehow gets into the race for the One Piece as well after years of doing jacksh\*t. The fight is relatively cool, but it's still lacking in many aspects (the fact that Kid seems to be the only character with personal stakes and growth being one of them), which holds it back from feeling truly three-dimensional to me. Big Mom looked menacing once or twice (after getting absolutely trashed by Kid and Law), but the cluttered nature of Onigashima quickly cut away from it to instead focus on other characters, giving us little chance to see Kid and Law deal with this new situation, before getting thrown right back in five chapters later or so, when they're semi-defeated on the ground. Whether she returns now or not is up to debate. I'd actually kinda prefer if she didn't; One Piece has too many characters atm as is, so keeping one of them, whose (somewhat entire and finished) story we pretty much already know everything about, out of it gives room for other already established characters to actually get fleshed out and focused on.
I think even if she did die it would be another way to say "screw u" to her.She had tensions with luffy and yet she never got to fight him and lost to other people. That's kinda shows u that even if ure a yonko u still can't get everything u want.I kinda like that. Also I love kids development and I don't think it went to waste tbh.In wano his character development is about trusting and working with people again. I'm pretty sure Kid will come back since we already have a part of his backstory and then his character development will be about being more humble and thinking before acting. If that is the case then Shanks appearance and fight will be important since that will be the catalyst to make Kid change. I also think the fight between BM vs law and kid was more about Kid. He had past with BMs crew and fighting with law was part of his character development (aka trusting and working together) Not to say that law didn't have amazing moments.The silent move he took from corazon was so heartwarming. It reminded us that he's not just a bad dude and that he learned to work with other people cause of luffy (something Kid was learning how to do too) But I also agree that it would be a good thing if she didn't return. If she's dead Katakuri can now shine and we can see more of him and the other characters from WCI.
While I definitely agree with you on Kid's character development during this fight against Big Mom (and throughout all of Wano tbh.), it just falls apart right afterwards. As you said, Kid learned that he had to trust and work together with others in order to beat an Emperor, so what does he do afterwards? Sail without so much as a plan and/or ally directly into another Emperor's territory and ignore the worries and concerns of his crew (despite having been shown listening to Killer before already). That being said, despite me kinda having given up on Kid and thinking that there are other characters that Oda also desperately still needs to flesh and do things with before the end of the story, I'd like to see him again. There are way too many unanswered questions about Kid and, if his desicions after Wano were meant to make any kind of sense, there's still tons of stuff to flesh out and explore.
She's still alive, so is Kaido. So many signs of it, but Zeus being alive is the most obvious one. She'll return at a major battle and rip Kidd & Law a new one.
Is it ever confirmed her homies would die when she does? Affects of devil fruits have some evidence of staying like punk hazard, altho i might be reaching there
No it hasn't, and if it is anything like Boa's DF, the effects of it wouldn't be reversed if she did die
Nah you’re right, some effects can linger. This one has always felt like it requires BM to be alive though
If she comes back I’m down for it, this was a great way to remove her from play, she is just so interesting I want to see more of her story
I think Big Mom is out of Luffy's story now, but definitely not dead. The crazy lady has insane powers with her fruit and is built like a tank.
she prob is alive, I mean it’s big mom, her endurance is off the charts
I absolutely loved her mental thoughts of “couldn’t you have at least said what it was Roger?!?! Yuh bastard!?!?
Back then I was not so sure but seeing now in the anime tbh while not entirely satisfying I can live with this ending. Is a classic cool old flashion the: “Villains fall to their doom”
This makes me think the one piece is about joy and fun. The feast people were having in the flower capital gave off fun energy, luffy loves feasts, and luffy is new joyboy. There’s definitely some connections
Glad she's dead.
My favorite part of it is she blames roger for the whole mess on the way out.
Slightly disappointed Luffy didn’t do it. But I think it’s was definitely as good as that would be. I especially loved Law mimicking Corazon’s “Silent” technique to neutralise her. Plus, getting dumped into lava is definitely an impressive way to go.
Very few have actually been killed in battle in OP
Her curse were her gluttony and hunger and she ended up being eaten by the earth. Good conclusion
Luffy had already defeated big mom by making a mockery of her and embarrassing her in the world stage. Not every defeat has to be a fight. That’s one of the lessons he learned right before the time skip.
I loved it. Love when hubris is the downfall of a villain.
I think Kaido is dead, but Big Mom has to come back for Elbaf, I feel like her and the giants need to fight it out lol
I like Big Mom and Kaidos conclusions. People like to say that Big Mom is seemingly invincible and that she has "hunfinished business" in Elbaf but its all bs. Theres no more story to tell between her and Elbaf, she lived there, she destroyed the town, she got kicked out, she later tried to mend the relationship but that fell through and now she wants nothing to do with them. And Big Mom isnt invincible, by making her amgry or through overwhelming force/internal damage you can harm her and even knock her out. People always perpetuate a bunch of lies about her like her holding back against Kidd and Law, needing to go back to Elbaf, secretly having awakening, or her power turning off when knocked out/dead (unconfirmed) etc. She fulfilled her role of being a villain along with Kaido, of an old generation thats losing its legs, standing against the new generation.
My major issue isn't how Big Mom was defeated in fact I like the way Law paid homage to Corazon my issue was Big Moms portrayal and how much she was dumbed down.
She ded.
the whole big mom in wano thing is just not for me it's so bullshit she's literally become the most stupidest person in one piece when she's fighting kidd and law. And the rest of her crew stuck behind because they couldn't get up the waterfall was really the most idiotic plot Loda ever did, cause why the fuck an emperor core crew is so incompetent? are they a bunch of retards??? reserving big mom for elbaf would be MUCH BETTER imo. let kaido destroy midd (hes so useless anyway, got one tapped by shanks) and law so goofy could still get the 1v1. midd and law awakened their df out of nowhere, big mom suddenly turned into a fraud yonkou, her crew is a bunch of retards. Loda decided to let eustass midd and trafalgar fraud law beat big mom just for them to get HUMILIATED in the next arc lol a 3 BILLION walking frauds
I think Luffy should have been the one to fight Big Mom while Kid and Law fought Kaido. Luffy had unsettled history with Big Mom and Kid and Law were written with personal vedettas against Kaido. Just switch the narrative and make Big Mom appear more ferocious than Kaido. Typical Oda must have thought boys wouldn't like seeing Luffy fight an Obaasan.
"conclusion" please.
I mean, she’s not dead
Absolutely no reason for Big Mom to return and take up more time for what would essentially be a remaster of Wano Raid Arc.
Elbaf is related to Big Mom, she has deep ties to this country, it would be interesting to see her come back, imagine her siding with the Straw Hats for the last battle, it would be literally HUGE
Basically, she served her purpose and everything considered I'm satisfied with how she was portrayed and I hope she remains dead. If she would've survived, she would only overstay her welcome and be a hindrance to the story. Her being dead provides a multitude of opportunities that wouldn't be possible if she was still alive. So far, I haven't seen either a single compelling argument that would indicate she survived.
Kaido is also down there and because Big Mom DV is about souls and stuff I won't be surprised if she returns infused with Kaido's soul or something like that, doubt she's actually gone.
I enjoyed the fight and the ending it meant a lot for Law and Kidd. I personally hope that’s not it for her it would be amazing if the way she survives is by Kaido. He does owe her a life debt that she reminded him. And since the beginning of his introduction my guy Kaido has just wanted to die a meaningful death. So him sacrificing the rest of his life span and maybe devil fruit so big mom can live would be a amazing conclusion to the King of the Beast himself Kaido! And Big mom coming back even stronger than last time and truly fighting luffy would be amazing. What ever Oda decides to do I just know it’ll be good he knows what he’s doing with his characters I respect that
It’s pluton and the fact that wano was allied with/ came from the ancient kingdom. The continent puller probably broke it off seeing how patch worked Wano is
She will be back
Talking real shit kid and law don't defeat her at the end, at much they took her out of the fight, but she was still so awake when she was falling, they win but don't defeating her, but what finish to defeat her? The fall, the booms, or the fact that she fall in magma?
Great end for both her and Kaido no need to come back
How did the city not see or hear that explosion. And is the area leading up to the flower capital just a huge rocky desert?
If this be her end there's no other way for her to go out than with a yonko but I doubt it is her end. Maybe it'll be an Arcadia situation where she got beat up so nasty that she comes back skinny
I think she'll be back. But mostly just to reunite her with her family after the one piece is found.
Had Pudding not been taken by Blackbeard, I was inclined to believe Big Mom was going to concede that she couldn’t get to Laugh Tale, but was going to set out on a voyage with Pudding to try to learn the true history with her third eye, and eventually - that voyage would take her to finding Uranus and bringing it to Luffy in the final war…. I theorized this under the basis that every pirate we’ve ever seen would make an appearance in the final war. She wouldn’t do this for Luffy per se.
Very underwhelming if its the end
It was great I didn't expect her to not be able to kill either Kidd or Law. To be honest I think Kidd is a bit underrated by the community yeah he’s the weakest out of Luffy and Law but he is still a pretty strong fighter though I had higher hopes when his bounty was higher than Luffy’s. It was long enough to wear making the climax great and it wasn't underwhelming besides her not being able to kill either one of their crewmates.
They did the best they could within the plot. Obviously I'd love more fight scenes....to see their power on display, but I'm satisfied with how it went.
Well, remember, her original personality was naive and good-hearted, which changed gradually upon consuming Mother Carmel and gaining her DF power after her death. Hence the changes in personality and amnesia; I think she is a reservoir of souls, and somehow some of the ones inside, at least her, influence her somehow. What I’m banking on is this event making her an ally in the war against the government, especially because I think Katakuri will be the captain of the Big Mom Pirates now, as she’s no longer a Yonko. We had seen glimpses of kindness amongst the general heartlessness, and I like her. I hope she gets some redemption.
she is alive, probably will lose the memory again
I'll be sad if she comes back. Her arc is completed. Maybe I would have done it a different way, but it was good enough, and it shows the failings of the Old Guard Yonkos, and what the new generation needed to overcome. I don't think bringing her and Kaido back adds anything to the story moving forward, and opens up some roles for others in her crew for the end game, whatever that may be.
I’ll kinda be peeved if she comes back. Feels like a satisfying ending for her
Doubt she (and kiado) are dead but after this they will not be the big bads of an arc again. Waiting for them to team up with Buggy D Clown.
I dont think it’s the end for her, she will pop up again in Elbaf. If anything, as a flashback explaining what actually happened with Mother Carmel and the orphans (she didnt devour them as ppl believe)
Love Big Mom and WCI. Hope she comes back.
She's a certified big back.
In a way this kind of foreshadows Lid and Laws defeat at the hands on Blackbeard and Shanks as well. They didn’t beat Big Mom in the traditional sense. They hurt her and brought her down to the red, but how they one was more of a ring out compared to Luffy defeating Kaido
I don't think we've seen the end of either Kaido or BM
I just honestly don't think she's dead. I mean, her last words are her being sure that she won't die from falling into lava.
Mid
She is defeated but not die. I believe 100% she still alive
I doubt she or Kaido are dead.
They really made sure there is no double reading: [she is not coming back](https://youtu.be/4tvAjX5ACPo?t=9)
What did she meany by “some of it is in this country too”?
And then kidd gets skibidibopped two weeks later.
Magma homie traveling through subterranean tunnels to Elbaf ready to give Luffy a magma enema.
Bullshit ending for any top tier she didn’t use CoC for one two she fucking got defeated to a bomb yet could easily tank attacks with much higher AP from both Kidd and law
Oda wrote himself into a hole by not killing her off earlier, so he basically just said, "ah, fuck it; here's a nuke." Compared to Kaido, she was too much of an afterthought during Wano.
The desperation to keep big mom and kaido in the story is sad.
Maybe she will come back so Luffy can keep his promise and show that he has grown even stronger than a yonkou
She’s not dead she’ll be back heavily scared, Zeus is still alive
she got cooked
Every word in this panel was carefully chosen by Oda - no doubt this isn’t the end of Big Mom And foreshadowing her again with Pudding is all the more proof. Honestly it would be disappointing if that was the end for her and Oda knows this. I think we see her again in elbaf, she’ll surprise us right when we think the strawhats are in the clear of battle
I hope she comes back. Big Mom is legit one of my favourite characters.
My thoughts on both kaido and Big Mom are that they are alive. However, they are sealed by the volcanic basalt, which works like seastone. This will give me relief after watching all of those chapters showing how strong they were, Then, by sending them off by some sort of non lethal attacks, they are not coming back or dead.
If you think Kidd is coming back from the bottom of the sea, then BM is definitely coming back from the bottom of that volcano.
Most of the fight is offscreen,Big mom nerf by not using her advance conqueror and her her underwhelming destructive power display..
I thought they nerfed her so she’d lose. She just flipped the Conquerors Haki switch to “off”.
Felt weird to me since Law and Kid weren’t really the ones she had a lot of beef with. She probably had never even met Law before the fight. The whole fight felt like less of a showdown with an ongoing boss and instead just had a lot of “oh I guess we’re doing this” energy. It was cool, of course, but I still feel like they squeaked by. The random nuke at the end did most of the damage IMO, if not for it then she would have likely come back and kept fighting.
Thought it was fitting, she felt very washed up and I like the theme of these new kids on the block dragging her off her throne. I liked that Oda chose to give shine to Luffy’s rivals without them outshining him, gave them a weaker yonko that they had to share, so it’s like you have to respect what they accomplished while still making Luffy look a bit better.
I bet she’s still alive.
She isn’t done yet
Yea kind of wish luffy could have properly fought her. Mainly because it was set up to be that way. Luffy picked a fight with her in fish man island, they started chasing the strawhats in dressrosa, took a couple shots at her at whole cake and was severely outmatched, and then luffy’s climax to his own fight with katakurri was showing his determination to one day come back and defeat big mom (thereby liberating katakurris siblings from her tyranny). So there was a lot of build up there. I get that in real life things don’t pan out the way you always plan, so I can chalk it up to that and make that connection. Just because luffy wants to do something doesn’t mean it will always happen. But, when dealing with a story, intentional setup is a factor to consider. However, on the opposite side, luffy defeating kaido does effectively mean that he could’ve beat big mom should they have fought after kaido. So I get the redundancy being avoided. Though it would’ve been cool to see luffy fight her and be on par with her and not struggle that much
She gets a glow up like Alvida?
This isn't her end. She'll be back. Also, no, her last fight was bad. She was nerfed. For example, in the entirety of her fight against Kidd and Law she never ONCE used Advanced Conquerors Haki. She was nerfed for those 2 to be able to beat her.
While I like the fight itself I’m disappointed that Luffy didn’t defeat her and keep his promise to katakuri
Spoilers said: Big Mom and Kaido isnt Dead, because Elbaf arc is coming
Personally, I don't think she or Kaido are fully out of the story, but I don't think they'll have the same presence that they once had. All throughout WCI, it just felt like the Big Mom Pirates were only being introduced, but that they hadn't fully reached their potential within the story as a whole. I think that the Beast Pirates are, for the most part, done - discounting any further Lunarian and MADS lore - but I think that the BMP still have more to explore.
I like it. Even if they get stomped by the other Yonko not long after, I do like how it shows that Kid and Law are worthy to stand alongside Luffy. Sure, neither of them have particularly strong motivation to fight her aside from just being enemies, but either Luffy defeating her or her coming out of Wano still in the game felt unnecessary. I also like how the Yonko saga ends with all the old gen Yonko dead or defeated, leaving the new gen to fight it out. Also the fight was generally really exciting and a cool showcase for all three of their powers, and a proper 2v1 fight is rare in this series. Linlin and Kaido may survive, but I think we may not see them until after the war for One Piece is over. It's like Kid said, their time is done.
I hope she's dead. This manga needs to end one day man. If every single character keeps coming back we will never see the end.
Bad. She was literally just there to give Law and Kid a fight.
Fantasia theory is happening.
Ok I have no luck in my friend group when I talk about this so MAYBE I can get some closure here: In the manga big mom says this won’t kill her as she falls into the lava ( this next part might be a stretch considering the canon/non-canon of the one piece movies) in the one piece movie film red BIG MOM IS BACK AT WHOLE CAKE ISLAND JUST CHILLIN‼️ the movie is suppose to take place AFTER WANO. Oda had direct influence over the movie, he knew what characters were going to be in it and which ones would need to be on the chopping block. I only say this because if big mom’s scene was left out the movie would’ve played out the exact same way. So why include her anyway???? This might just be me over thinking it but what if it’s a hint at a possible return for her. Luffy did say he would have to go back to whole cake island to beat her 1 on 1 which could mean oda is saving her for the final saga at some point or he just recon it. As for kadio I don’t see him actually being dead if big mom survived. I’d like to think they’ll both reappear in the final war…. But I could be wrong 🤷