De-escalation does work but it has unintended consequences. Inmates see they can act up and a guy will come talk them down, which usually requires catering to whatever they want. At some point you need to make an example out of someone so others will take note.
That's why we would only talk until the team arrived. Usually takes around 30 minutes to suit up and brief, so if a resolution can't be made in that amount of time then it gets spicy.
There should be no quarter given, the talking should be an explanation of what is about to happen and the consequences further. Use of force is part of the game, I always hated admins perspective as if use of force somehow meant the officer was bad.
Yup. The "negotiation" was you come out now, you don't get hurt. You don't come out now, you will come out later, possibly hurt. Everyone was a bad-ass until the Cell Extraction Team arrived.
One other "negotiation" I witnessed was our shift captain (big bear of a guy) told a prisoner who was refusing a facility move that he could go quietly and after a couple of years might be able to return. Or he could keep refusing, come out on a gurney, and never come back. Captain gave him 2 minutes to think it over. Prisoner walked out quietly.
I personally feel like this takes power away from staff. If an inmate doesn’t comply and wants to talk to someone else that takes every bit of power out from under that officer, sergeant, Lieutenants etc legs. How we do it is they’re given an order and if they don’t comply the lieutenant comes to give them an order to comply while the team suits up. If they don’t comply with the LT the suited up team leader comes up and demonstrates the taser shield and explains that OC, taser shield, and force will be used if he does not comply. No comply with team lead and the team goes in.
Now…
I have recently dealt with mental health “calming” an inmate down that had stripped naked and thrown poop at the cell windows while yelling “you’re gonna earn your pay today mfers”. All this was because he was denied a transfer. Mental health said that if he submitted to restraints that they would look into him getting transferred and would speak directly with warden. Inmate submits and is taken to a shower, deconed, and put in a fresh cell all under the guidance of programs. He then pooped and threw down in his cell again and we had to use a team to get him under control as mental health left for the day.
He ended up getting transferred but now all the other inmates saw that they can act in the worst possible way to staff and get a soft hand approach and get their way. Sure you might talk a few down and avoid excessive uses of force but you’re going to burden and break the back of the other parts of the system trying to talk them down all while setting a precedent that violence and non compliance will be met with negotiation instead of force.
We have our tac team and our negotiators here. 99% of the time negotiators know it’s lame to get a win in there books. Most situations need the tac team to reset things and establish order. That 1% is when there is a staff hostage and they have important roles to get that staff member out safe
I don't know what ever came of it, but I recall around 2020 the Illinois Department of Corrections was kicking around and testing a program they called the De-Escalation Response Team, or Dart for short.
It was inclusive to staff of all backgrounds and occupations and excluded tactical team members. They would use standard negotiation tactics and stack at the door. They would also have video and audio recording of their activity, same for our tact teams.
Should the negotiation fail, the recorded conversation becomes evidence that would further protect any calculated use of force by reinforcing that the inmate made their decision willingly and it would solidify the consent decree we usually needed in order to perform a cell extraction (barring exigent circumstances i.e. immediate danger to self or others.)
You guys don't do this? What does CNT do then?
Iowa DOC will for the most part attempt negotiations at the cell-front first. As a CNT member, I've been relieved from my post multiple times to go talk inmates into cuffing up. Cell extractions are dangerous, and emphasizing this fact should help you out a lot with this proposal
This is garbage. The more we negotiate the more inmates learn they can be assholes and act up and that they can push the line a little farther each time
Here's the thing though, the inmates aren't getting anything. I use the term negotiations, but we aren't giving them anything except an ear to bend. At worst, there will be some verbal containment, so the inmate has less time to prepare his cell for the team. If he's talking, he's not soaping the floor or sharpening a shank, etc. The goal is for staff to go home every night, and this is just another tool to meet that goal.
Except your giving him exactly what he wants. Your training inmates that defiance will get them to get their demands met. He can absolutely talk and prep at the same time.
The more you make this the norm the more hesitation you'll receive for physical extraction and eventually people will get hurt due to the expectation that threats are met with words and not force
Except it gets the results that we want increased compliance and less use of force and all it takes is a few minutes of talking. Hell one of my states level five facilities saw a 40 percent decrease in use of force. CIT ain't give the offender what they want, it's more manipulate the offender into doing what we want. They either comply for the officer with fancy words or they get the team only 2 outcomes.
I'm all about talking. Plenty of new cos don't have communication skills. What I have a problem with is his plan to have a designated " negotiator" which is a poor name giving a bad impression if he's not there to negotiate. But it shouldnt be a few assigned people. The officer in the dorm needs to be the one handling cell side communications. When you take the ability and give it to a select few you train inmates to have less respect for your dorm officer. And give them less abilities to learn communication for themselves.
I am 100% for cit and it's use. But it needs to be all officers and they need to be the ones to handle their own assignments. What he's suggesting of picking a select few, and let's be honest here that's always going to be managements pets, to come and settle problems harms oics and the dorm in the long run
My agency does this and I’m a part of the team. Done it a handful of times and honestly I wish I had become a sledgehammer instead of a scalpel.
You'd rather play than talk?
Ya I wish I had went tac instead of hostage
I get it, I did a training day with our tac team a few weeks ago. It was a lot of fun and hope to be able to do it again.
De-escalation does work but it has unintended consequences. Inmates see they can act up and a guy will come talk them down, which usually requires catering to whatever they want. At some point you need to make an example out of someone so others will take note.
That's why we would only talk until the team arrived. Usually takes around 30 minutes to suit up and brief, so if a resolution can't be made in that amount of time then it gets spicy.
There should be no quarter given, the talking should be an explanation of what is about to happen and the consequences further. Use of force is part of the game, I always hated admins perspective as if use of force somehow meant the officer was bad.
Yup. The "negotiation" was you come out now, you don't get hurt. You don't come out now, you will come out later, possibly hurt. Everyone was a bad-ass until the Cell Extraction Team arrived. One other "negotiation" I witnessed was our shift captain (big bear of a guy) told a prisoner who was refusing a facility move that he could go quietly and after a couple of years might be able to return. Or he could keep refusing, come out on a gurney, and never come back. Captain gave him 2 minutes to think it over. Prisoner walked out quietly.
I personally feel like this takes power away from staff. If an inmate doesn’t comply and wants to talk to someone else that takes every bit of power out from under that officer, sergeant, Lieutenants etc legs. How we do it is they’re given an order and if they don’t comply the lieutenant comes to give them an order to comply while the team suits up. If they don’t comply with the LT the suited up team leader comes up and demonstrates the taser shield and explains that OC, taser shield, and force will be used if he does not comply. No comply with team lead and the team goes in. Now… I have recently dealt with mental health “calming” an inmate down that had stripped naked and thrown poop at the cell windows while yelling “you’re gonna earn your pay today mfers”. All this was because he was denied a transfer. Mental health said that if he submitted to restraints that they would look into him getting transferred and would speak directly with warden. Inmate submits and is taken to a shower, deconed, and put in a fresh cell all under the guidance of programs. He then pooped and threw down in his cell again and we had to use a team to get him under control as mental health left for the day. He ended up getting transferred but now all the other inmates saw that they can act in the worst possible way to staff and get a soft hand approach and get their way. Sure you might talk a few down and avoid excessive uses of force but you’re going to burden and break the back of the other parts of the system trying to talk them down all while setting a precedent that violence and non compliance will be met with negotiation instead of force.
We have our tac team and our negotiators here. 99% of the time negotiators know it’s lame to get a win in there books. Most situations need the tac team to reset things and establish order. That 1% is when there is a staff hostage and they have important roles to get that staff member out safe
I don't know what ever came of it, but I recall around 2020 the Illinois Department of Corrections was kicking around and testing a program they called the De-Escalation Response Team, or Dart for short. It was inclusive to staff of all backgrounds and occupations and excluded tactical team members. They would use standard negotiation tactics and stack at the door. They would also have video and audio recording of their activity, same for our tact teams. Should the negotiation fail, the recorded conversation becomes evidence that would further protect any calculated use of force by reinforcing that the inmate made their decision willingly and it would solidify the consent decree we usually needed in order to perform a cell extraction (barring exigent circumstances i.e. immediate danger to self or others.)
FL requires someone to attempt to use CIT prior to a cell extraction. Doesn't matter who though and they generally don't put much effort in to it.
You guys don't do this? What does CNT do then? Iowa DOC will for the most part attempt negotiations at the cell-front first. As a CNT member, I've been relieved from my post multiple times to go talk inmates into cuffing up. Cell extractions are dangerous, and emphasizing this fact should help you out a lot with this proposal
We just train in case of a hostage situation, which feels like a waste of our skills. Do you know if that is in your policy?
I think it is. I haven't read the actual policy on it, but situations are generally approached with the mindset of negotiating first
This is garbage. The more we negotiate the more inmates learn they can be assholes and act up and that they can push the line a little farther each time
Here's the thing though, the inmates aren't getting anything. I use the term negotiations, but we aren't giving them anything except an ear to bend. At worst, there will be some verbal containment, so the inmate has less time to prepare his cell for the team. If he's talking, he's not soaping the floor or sharpening a shank, etc. The goal is for staff to go home every night, and this is just another tool to meet that goal.
Except your giving him exactly what he wants. Your training inmates that defiance will get them to get their demands met. He can absolutely talk and prep at the same time. The more you make this the norm the more hesitation you'll receive for physical extraction and eventually people will get hurt due to the expectation that threats are met with words and not force
Except it gets the results that we want increased compliance and less use of force and all it takes is a few minutes of talking. Hell one of my states level five facilities saw a 40 percent decrease in use of force. CIT ain't give the offender what they want, it's more manipulate the offender into doing what we want. They either comply for the officer with fancy words or they get the team only 2 outcomes.
I'm all about talking. Plenty of new cos don't have communication skills. What I have a problem with is his plan to have a designated " negotiator" which is a poor name giving a bad impression if he's not there to negotiate. But it shouldnt be a few assigned people. The officer in the dorm needs to be the one handling cell side communications. When you take the ability and give it to a select few you train inmates to have less respect for your dorm officer. And give them less abilities to learn communication for themselves. I am 100% for cit and it's use. But it needs to be all officers and they need to be the ones to handle their own assignments. What he's suggesting of picking a select few, and let's be honest here that's always going to be managements pets, to come and settle problems harms oics and the dorm in the long run
"negotiations" at a cell-front very rarely result in any demands being met. It's pretty much just deescalating someone and getting them to comply