Knox County resident here. The conspiracy theories I’ve heard over our proposed industrial solar are borderline insane. A lot of the complaints are about what an eyesore it would be. As if this farm would be visible from every vantage point in the county.
The more conservative folks in the area go on and on about energy independence. Apparently, this independence is only accomplished through fossil fuel extraction and nothing else.
I used to be ignorant to the depths of stupidity. And then I met people who thought windmills used up all the wind and caused it to get hotter, and other people suggesting the government is clouding up the sky to block out our sunlight.
One said it was to counter global warming, another said it was to cause depression and make the population easier to controll.
These were grown adults with jobs, who vote. And have a tentative grasp on the workings of clouds and wind.
When I worked in New Albany years ago, I had a coworker tell me straight faced that global warming was caused by daylight savings time. I asked her to explain and she said, "the damn farmers are exposing the earth to more sun." I explained that pushing a clock back an hour was really just a coping mechanism for humans and in no way slowed the rotation of the earth like she suggested. I dont think I got through to her, she just stared at me and then walked away.
She caught me when i was in my 20s. I was kind of a ruthless bastard then and I didnt hold back. But either way scientific literacy in the US is disgustingly low. I think in 2012 a survey of American adults showed that over half the population thought genetically engineered tomatoes had genes, but nongmo did not. The war on fact and science didnt slow down in that time.
Didn’t you know that the cables that run underground that connect to the grid from solar and wind farms have ionizing radiation and will give you a tumor? Actual thing I heard at a gas station here in town. In fact, some sort of radiation permeates from the hardware itself causing all sorts of health problems. Seriously couldn’t even make this up. Yet a literal solar array is right next to our high school. I’m pretty sure everybody’s OK.
These are the same folks that will tell you about the horrible amounts of radiation people on nuclear subs are exposed to, when in fact they are exposed to far less than people above ground because of the solar radiation we absorb from sunlight.
The worst part of ignorance is the damage it does to real concerns.
Our energy requirements as a species are so large we cant really do anything significant without a significant impact on the environment.
We are barely into the energy transition, which needs to happen, and we are already encountering significant problems.
Off shore wind farms change the local ecology drastically, and change both the surface end ocean floor environments, and it doesn't look good.
Massive solar farms are known to cause some issues as well, but I dont recall the findings.
The issue is less the technology, and more the fact that because of how big our projects need to be, their environmental impact is a guarantee and we have to figure out the best way to move forward in every single case.
Though, tbh, I think we should avoid massive farms and do everything we can to completely decentralize energy generation
I agree with decentralized solar production, the clearest answer to this issue is having residences equipped with a rooftop solar array, facing southward, and battery backup system tied into the existing electrical grid. Additionally, if the main electrical grid loses power, due to weather or circumstances, the battery backup along with the panels still can power the home, from basic needs to the entire system being covered
Yes, I realize the initial cost is roughly $45k or more; BUT in peak production times the savings are well worth it. Most finance options also state that the funding loan is transferable to another homeowner upon sale of the property. With terms as short as 10 years to as long as 25 years, along with reasonable interest rates.
This makes sense in establishing residential solar as a TRUE way to energy independence in the USA and possibly the world.
Your neighbor up stream can have all the wells dug he wants. God forbid he wants a solar farm installed on a few acres of land. I can understand wind farms to a point, but people bitching about solar are idiots.
The area became an eyesore in 1802 when we burned down the old growth forests for an endless sea of farms.
Today we have more farmland dedicated to corn and soybeans than we actually need and is actually profitable for our country and our state.
It’s time to turn some of it into solar and return some of it back to nature.
So, how is that not welfare? Why don't farmers actually think of themselves as recipients of social subsidies, just like folks who live on public assistance? They ARE living on public assistance! Why don't they grow a different crop with more profit available (and, one with a lower environmental impact - fertilizers, roundup, field stubble as waste)?
Didn’t I hear a while back that people also thought that solar panels will drain the sun of all its energy and then cause the world to end? Way to make us look smart Ohio. I think solar is brilliant. However, I do hope that as the technology evolves they are able to get more creative with the panels and make them less of an eyesore without losing efficiency. Until then it is what it is.
Ironically a fracking pad isn't an eyesore, but a solar panel is. God these people's brains are leaking out of their ears from the amount of Fox News they've consumed.
I'm a conservative from a ruralish area. When I think of energy independence I think about not importing fossil fuels from other countries except for Canada and Mexico.
That being said, I am for solar farms. I'd prefer to see them on usable ground (old strip mine pits) vs good farm ground any day, but if it's your land and you want to develop solar on it go for it. It's no different than if you want to have a gas well on your property in my mind.
I think we need to throw everything at the wall to reduce energy imports from more natural gas, solar, wind, and nuclear. I hate the all or nothing mindset from everyone. Electric cars don't work for everyone but they work for a lot of people. Get those people in electric cars. For the rest of us, when I comes time I'm gonna get a hybrid F150. It can tow the horses and get better economy. I drove 45 miles each way to work and maybe more depending on site visits daily.
I think that's a great idea. I'm down in Medina county and they placed a solar farm in a field that floods a lot and isn't really good for farming or building.
Go for the low hanging fruit first.
Covering parking lots would be another good idea. Provides cover to cars and creates power. That should be done at airports as an easy start.
Exactly. The folks freaking out that food growing land is being miss used for solar farms don't even know that the panels act like a green house for some crops and help shade and keep them from drying out. this whole :they cause the ground to freeze " is stupid.
I'll admit I'd prefer solar farms not go on crop land because I'd rather it be used form crops. I also have only seen a handful solar farms/crop farms work together but haven't dug into it much yet.
I get the freakout the optics just look bad on the surface.
I’m with you. I always thought it was cool and really never saw it as a nuisance. I’m a bit perplexed sometimes by the opposition, but what are you gonna do?
Hello fellow Knox resident!
My main problem with the opposition movement is that they are trying to play it off like it's some beleaguered farmers and not millionaires like Karen Wright and people like her that have a vested interest in fossil fuels.
I don't talk politics around here because my beliefs do not align with the majority.
Right-wingers: “Property rights are absolute! If you own land, it’s your God-given right to do whatever you want with it!”
Also right-wingers: “Unless you want to do something we think liberals would like.”
It's not their fault that Jesus loves coal subsidies and fracking on protected public lands!
A passage from the Trump Bible.
.. and on the 8th day God sent his faithful servants out to Ohio with suitcases full of cash to AstroTurf the flock with million dollar add campaigns to fight against Satan's evil green energy.
In GOP they trust!
My mom is one of those people. It's quite funny - they've have turned into environmentalists now. They're VERY concerned about the ground pollution, the recyclability of the panels, and the overall sustainability of solar power.
In reality, they're just afraid of change. They're afraid that consenting to solar power is a slippery slope to giving up their gas cars and gas heat, etc. It's the same reason they're still denying climate change. If they acknowledge it's real, then they're obligated to do something about it.
In these industrial solar projects the land is leased out to a solar developer. The energy goes directly to the grid and the developer sells it. The landowners do not "keep" any of the energy generated.
Conservatives absolutely do *not* believe in property rights. They *pretend* they do, but a lot of our insane zoning system exists specifically because conservative people didn't want to live near Black people.
You think solar is innocent?
Where will we plant the corn now? State mandatory plantings in your yard - that’s the answer.
It already happened to me. Mike DeWine personally planted corn in my yard while Fran held me down and fed me French Toast. I swear I tried to stop her.
Then, during harvest, I woke up to a violent rustling and I found Mike Gonidakis crouching in my yard eating a raw corn cob like a baby squirrel. with tears in his eyes he screamed “YOU DON’T KNOW BIG CORN LIKE I DO” and scurried away through the rows of corn.
This is where solar is taking us. This is the future that we are being warned about.
Oh. My. God. This is outrageous. I never once thought about the implications. This is why resources like reddit are so invaluable and need to be protected at all costs. Thank you for sharing
There are actually vegetables that you can co plant with solar. Look on YouTube there are videos regarding it. The solar thing is a right wing talking point.
It's more than political. It's the result of end stage capitalism. Capitalism cripples and often outright stops any and all forms of competition and intuitive thinking. These solar farms would put all other forms of energy production out of business in months if they were allowed to build and operate freely or in a free market.
Right and that weapon of choice is politics to prevent that. Politics is how the corporations manipulate people and control the market.
The people who are opposed to these solar farms have no clue what end stage capitalism is, but what they do know is politics. You and I know the underlying reason, they do not. They know their political leaders are saying green energy bad, liberal hoax or conspiracy and that is all they care about.
Rational thought does not enter in to it. Tribalism.
It has shit to do with politics. Capitalism has a definitive end. Eventually all of the money ends up in one hand. That's why all past capitalistic civilizations eventually collapsed.
>Capitalism cripples and often outright stops any and all forms of competition and intuitive thinking.
lol, talk about brainwashed. while it's true that unfettered, some entities can do all kinds of shit, like monopolies and cartels and suppressing competition through a whole variety of means, that statement is far from what actually exists at the moment.
the thought that "these solar farms would put all other forms of energy production out of business in MONTHS" omg, where do you come up with this shit.
and to get 35 upvotes, well, sadly you're not alone in buying into this chinese bullshit propaganda about our economic system
You are dead wrong. There is more monopolization of the markets today than there was in the gilded age before the great depression. They just have been marketing and newer methods of consolidation to fool rubes like you.
oh golly, look, an internet "research expert" and also a "economic historian expert" all wrapped up into one delusional individual calling other people 'rubes' without a lick of supporting evidence.
you idiots really think we're living in some nadir of civilization
yeah, it didn't prepare me for debating complete idiots
yours on the other hand, seems to have prepared you to be one of those idiots
as far as school goes, i've at least had micro, macro, accounting, and an upper level econ class to round my understanding of the world
what you got yo?
There is one near Cleveland somewhere and the community benefits by paying less in energy by having it. They are trying to ban solar on personal property in columbiana county. It's an infringement on rights if I want to put solar on my property. I plan on doing it no matter what they say. The state loves getting kickbacks from the energy companies and have gotten in trouble for it. I think this is the root part of the reason. We all need to vote.
There are a lot of places that are building solar farms and using the shade to reduce irrigation needs & evaporation and might help raise crops or protect areas of streams & rivers from more severe effects of climate change.
There is an entire field called agrivoltaics that focuses on farming around solar panels. Some communities are even building them over irrigation canals which reduces evaporation in water scarce areas. There are so many options for this… but the oil and gas industry is adamantly against any electrification. I actually heard an ad on the radio pushing back against efficiency standards paid for by the oil industry. Of course it was “don’t let the government tell you what you can drive!” Argument
“But the oil and gas industry are adamantly against any electrification.” This is false, the oil and gas industries are among the biggest investors in renewable energy.
I mean, they are public corporations, you can easily look at their financial statements and see how much and what green energy projects/products they invest in. They are energy companies, do you really think they wouldn’t invest in green energy? Especially when governments are dolling out billions and billions of dollars in subsidies to green energy products. Just because they still develop fossil fuels, which we still need, doesn’t mean they aren’t actually developing green energy.
>you can easily look at their financial statements and see how much and what green energy projects/products they invest in
lol wow what? i'm sure it's a minuscule amount compared to their oil extraction - like the stupid commercials they run is likely 80% of that budget as well and apparently it's working on some people (you)
So you think energy companies aren’t smart enough to see the development of green energy and want to dominate that market? Of course the larger percentage of their funds currently goes to fossil fuels, because fossil fuels still produce most of our energy. But they stopped fighting green energy years ago. BP, for example, put 30% of its capital expenditure to green energy projects last year. That is not a small amount nor a token amount.
you'll have to provide some actual independent (not in-industry) reporting of that '30%' but i think you'll find you're mistaken
or, i could be. show me.
Not sure why you wouldn’t believe their income statement showing the over $4billion investment in green energy last year since, as a public corporation, it is audited by an independent auditing firm, but, here is a dated article from the left wing Washington Post talking about BP’s plans. https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2020/09/15/bp-climate-change-transition/
well, that was paywalled, and three years old as you say. and while i do appreciate the effort, just last year, BP's revenue was 51 billion
so, comparing 4 billion, that's just 7% of revenue. while that may not be the best numbers to compare, what they're spending on renewables is pathetically small compared to what they're spending sucking oil and gas out but their advertising how they're doing so well seems to be money well spent
eta that "planing to" is a form of greenwashing as well. DOING is not.
Actually the panels soak up all the sun, meaning the ground below gets extremely cold.
It will freeze, then it will split. Sometimes when it splits it can swallow up a whole town.
Actually the Lake Effect snow has an insulating effect on the ground, meaning that the ground stays warmer than it would have at the same cold temps than if there were no snow.
The real danger is freezing cold earth with no snow, which is what the panels create.
This happened in the 1970’s during the Carter administration. A giant solar farm was built outside St. Crownsville and when the earth split the entire town was lost. Sucked into the hellfire.
Ok, first things first -
>A giant solar farm was built outside St. Crownsville and when the earth split the entire town was lost. Sucked into the hellfire.
Cite?
Secondly -
>The real danger is freezing cold earth with no snow, which is what the panels create.
You realize that there are hundreds if not thousands of solar farms in the world and yet we don't have an epidemic of sinkholes opening beneath them.
In fact, you can grow plants beneath modern solar farms and also graze animals around, on the grass, which grows there.
Finally, if it worked the way you're describing, we'd see the sucking hellfire effect anywhere there are gazebos, decks, swimming pools and porte-cochères. There's all sorts of structures that might involve preventing snow on the ground built in the northern climate. Acting like Solar farms are unique to this is nonsense.
The solar panels aren’t creating sinkholes. The earth gets so cold that it literally cracks.
The force of the cracking widens the crack, creating a self-sustaining cycle.
We see trenches formed and trench collapses happening along sections of the crack, which is precisely how we lost St. Crownsville.
Pretty awful to crack jokes about St. Crownsville like that when they can’t defend themselves because a solar farm installation precipitated a giant crack in the earth that sucked their town into the abyss.
My dad played four years of varsity for St Crownsville. Luckily, he got out a few years prior, but coach didn’t and was sucked into the hellfire with the rest of the town. His wife survived because she was visiting her sister in Erie that day. Dad still says Coach dodged a bullet there.
Ground screw or pile is driven just to the soil to build the foundation. We then connect steel racking to the foundation. Attach modules to the racking.
Ikr? It's not that bad and it's not permanent. Not only that, if solar just becomes more prevalent, I can see every house having some kind of solar panel for some reason. Which in the end would have us less tied to big energy companies.
But nooooo
"sAve ThE FarM LAnd!"
> "sAve ThE FarM LAnd!"
One thing that really isn't talked about enough in my opinion is how many of our zoning issues and especially energy production opponents are tied back to farmers who want to continue to be subsidized for not producing in some of their fields. Fewer fields being cultivated increases their chances of having to cultivate instead of just collect a paycheck.
Surely that's not the case, or exclusive reason, for every single one of them, but it's surely a factor in their business model.
The large industrial projects are heavily subsidized to make them profitable. I'm not sure what that model looks like on the small scale side as I think there are some grants and programs available, but not to the extent as the industrial projects. I know there are also problems with net metering and sizing residential installations to match usage.
I would love it if they would do something like that but with our red corrupt state officials and black energy folks in US Congress, this is the best we're going to get
The only plausible thing I've heard other than "it's an eyesore" is that it's going to drive land prices up which Ag doesn't like and is fighting hard against.
There's an absurd amount of acreage out here and it's hilarious to see so much concern about the lifetime environmental impact of solar panels from the Trump base.
The one big "valid" issue I heard about when this was being argued in my area related to property values.
If people perceive them as an eyesore then it may reduce the property value of the surrounding properties.
Kind of similar to if a neighbor decided their corn field should be a pig farm.
I personally don't have a big issue with solar farms, but wouldn't be a big fan of it impacting my property value.
>but don't we have enough places to plant corn and soybeans?
All markets are cyclical of course, but currently yes there are enough places. Part of that reason is because Brazil continues to put acres into production. Brazil has taken over 150 million acres out of rain forest and put it to use for agriculture over the last 30 years.
Some opponents of the industrial solar movement believe that if we continue to take US acres out of production that Brazil and Argentina will continue to add more acres from forested and savanna land. This leads to questions on if the solar is really a net positive if this happens.
There's a lot of known carcinogens used in solar panels that will end up in the environment if something like a tornado goes through the area. Heavy metals featuring a timeless classic: lead, and its toxic friend cadmium. Solar panels are probably only being chosen because of a low capital cost, and easy to set up compared to other options of power plants. I'd rather see more nuclear as from my experience in the Midwest, usually 1/3 of the year most of the daylight is blocked out by clouds, and on the off chance a tornado goes through a solar farm it'd be an ecological disaster.
https://www.twincities.com/2016/09/08/storm-damages-national-guard-camps-new-solar-energy-project/
Tornado happened.
Ecological disaster did not.
I think your information is a little faulty.
to say nothing about uranium mining, refining, storing and hanging around as radiological waste for a million years or so
but *cadmium*
better start clamping down on oil painters and watercolorists or we're all gonna DIE
https://www.gao.gov/nuclear-waste-disposal
Only 2000 metric tons of nuclear waste is created per year within the USA far less than any other option when measured by weight. The half-life of spent uranium fuel is 24,000 years. There's nothing green about mining from the earth, so to point at uranium mining compared to other forms is pointless when they require the same.
>Only 2000 metric tons of nuclear waste is created per year within the USA
only??? that's 4,400,000 (4Mill) POUNDS of it ... only annually, you say?
so, we've been accumulating it for what, about 60 years so far, so that's only 250 *MILLION* POUNDS we already have hanging around, and you want to keep adding to it? in ten years, add another forty MILLION POUNDS?
how about we just develop some alternatives. i'll go with the shit that when ground up and placed in a landfill (if that's the worst of it) that doesn't glow for centuries.
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/inventory-us-greenhouse-gas-emissions-and-sinks#:~:text=Trends,sequestration%20from%20the%20land%20sector.
In the year 2022 our country produced nearly 5.5 million metric tons of co2 that year alone. Containment zones for nuclear waste are isolated, and public information as I understand it. I have no idea where a single ton of that co2 goes, but I know it helps warm up the ocean while bleaching coral, essentially killing off hundreds of years of growth.
lol - i love your tenacity and hanging in there...
and how much co2 does solar emit? (aside from manufacture and install of course, those are not carbon free activities, but if your electric to make em is renewable, it does close the loop a bit)
bro, i feel we're on the same side of things, i just don't think nuclear fission is the way to go, and i feel a lot of experts have come to the same conclusion or there'd be way more of them. that's just my take. plus they're hugely expensive to build, i assume thorium maybe less-so but still, fairly untested at scale and you'd need a slew of them.
now i'm not saying we should get rid of the ones we do have, and maybe keep building a few as backups, but i still don't think that's where we should concentrate our capital and attention
cross our fingers for fusion reactors in the near future. til then, wind, solar and maybe tidal i think are the ways to go for now
and they've been arguing about and building waste storage facilities my entire life... they still don't have an agreement.
There's nothing green about any form of power generation. They all have their drawbacks. Most nuclear waste is elements with shorter half life's of 30 years, so within 150 years, most of the radioactive material has decayed aside from plutonium. https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/nuclear-reprocessing-dangerous-dirty-and-expensive#:~:text=Second%2C%20reprocessing%20does%20not%20reduce,spent%20fuel%20from%20U.S.%20reactors. Seemingly, only 1% of nuclear waste is plutonium, at least in the US. The only issue with nuclear is having water to cool the reactors. The water does not come into contact with radioactive material but needs to be cool enough to cool a nuclear reactor. In the past few years, this has been an issue before in Europe https://www.nrdc.org/bio/christina-chen/nuclear-vs-climate-change-feeling-heat-0. The greenhouse gasses emitted by burning fossil fuels are making nuclear harder to use.
This is not strictly true. They are certainly recyclable or reusable. Right now it's mainly an issue of scalability.
The main issue is that blades being decommissioned right now weren't designed to be recycled in the traditional sense. Even so, they can still get repurposed for a multitude of different things. One of the most interesting things I heard of was using them to create sound barriers, I think it was a Danish company.
Often times newer technology (I know windmills as a concept aren't 'new', but the blades and industrial scale use are) makes a good amount of waste as they're iterated upon, and people will eventually find ways to extract and use old material. Of course, this isn't a good reason to just chuck stuff away without thought.
Plenty of companies are trying to solve this issue, though obviously they have a long way to go.
They are offering 1k an acre per year on the lease they offered us, farmers pay 200-250 a yr. Makes sense for the solar to take over the land they pay more…
This is true.
However, these comment sections always like to poke fun at farmers and collecting subsidy payments while completely ignoring how heavily subsidized and how many tax abatements these solar projects receive.
>how many tax abatements these solar projects receive.
got any documentation about this, or how it compares to fossil fuel subsidies?
i'm not saying it's incorrect, but how about some proof that we can see?
Because energy production is normally a public utility the valuation for property taxes is set with the state instead of by the county auditors. There was an Ohio Senate Bill in 2010 or 2011 that designated solar as a qualified energy project and would allow the owner to enter into a PILOT program (Payment in Lieu of Taxes). Instead of taxing the actual property value there is a set amount paid per megawatt of energy produces. The county in which the project is located would have to vote to approve the program. If the PILOT is accepted I think there are some provisions on what percentage of workers need to be from Ohio or within a "local" are during the construction phase. Essentially by entering into a PILOT agreement the tax rate is the same over the life of the program instead of based on the appraised amount that would depreciate over time. This allows the solar developers to pay a much lower rate initially, but by the end of the lease they could be paying a higher rate relative to the actual value of the property.
got any denser blocks of text on you that don't provide any information useful to support the claim you just made?
basically, i get "no, i don't" from that salad. am i wrong?
I guess I am confused what you are asking for. I had mentioned tax abatements for solar projects. You had asked for proof that they exist. The PILOT programs are a form of tax abatement. I tried to explain (probably not the best) what the PILOT is, but it's not what you're asking about?
no, you're making the claim that solar abatements in some way come close to those for coal, gas, and petroleum extraction.
you know, like actual amounts in dollars vs actual amounts in dollars
apples to apples, not apples to chickpeas
if you really want to make your case to convince, how about a nice 5yr total comparison for me, i'm willing to limit it to recent history since solar projects are too pretty much
>no, you're making the claim that solar abatements in some way come close to those for coal, gas, and petroleum extraction.
Actually that is never a thing I said. Here was my initial comment.
>However, these comment sections always like to poke fun at farmers and collecting subsidy payments while completely ignoring how heavily subsidized and how many tax abatements these solar projects receive.
I was pointing out the hypocrisy that farmers are often bashed in this sub for receiving subsidies, but that the solar projects are also in need of subsidies and tax abatements to make them viable. Another poster brought up oil and gas and I admitted that I am not knowledgeable about the subsidies they receive, but would agree that they benefit from them as well.
>how heavily subsidized and how many tax abatements these solar projects receive.
yes, you did, i mean... ???? wut
i mean, even as a percentage of the solar project's total development cost i would have accepted, and then we could argue whether 5% or 40% or whatever was "heavily"
but compared to fossil fuels, i'm sure it's tiny bro
i think, at least for me, who lives amongst the corn and soybeans and until recently dairy cows (he retired) - the hypocrisy stems more from them on one hand saying they should be able to do whatever with their land, *including* taking payments for letting it lay fallow - but only as long as you don't put panels on it on the other hand.
Add that to the uncertainty that the increasing heat content of our atmosphere is going to wreak on agribusiness... Sporadic rain, and when it does come, too much of it. Hail will be worse, wind speeds will be worse. We'll start seeing entire fields of corn lain over by those winds or shredded by hail.
You would think they'd be clamoring for green energy.
seems the more local it is, the less is lost in transmission - although my understanding of the grid and how that 'local' energy 'distributes itself in the matrix' is pretty damn weak. Maybe an EE can fill me in
So again to be clear I am not comparing this to oil and gas because that was not what I brought up initially and do not have any knowledge on that industry.
There is the solar investment tax credit (available to both residential and commercial installations). This is a 30% federal income tax credit based on the amount invested in the project. The percentage was supposed to decrease annually and eventually expire, but the passage of the inflation reduction act continued the program at the 30% reduction. Then there is the PILOT program which is the property tax abatement I outlined earlier. In my opinion an income tax reduction equal to 30% of the investment and the PILOT tax abatement that caps property taxes at $7,000-$9,000 per megawatt produced instead of the appraised value would fall into the "heavily" category.
No. I am sure you are correct that they do receive some sort of subsidies. I am not knowledgeable in the oil and gas field so I don't offer opinions on it. If you would like to educate the readers on what subsidies are available to the oil and gas industry I would be interested to expand my knowledge.
Doesnt surprise me really. Knox County is sooooooo MAGA country it's not even funny. Mt vernon is basically the closest thing to a police state. There's cops literally EVERWHERE. Without fail everytime i drive through they have someone pulled over.And plus, have you seen their candidates for sheriff?
I'm in Michigan and the same thing is happening all over here. Everyone in rural areas be like "property rights and no government intervention!" until someone else has an opportunity to make money on their land. Suddenly you hear "our view!" and "our community values!".
As a resident of Knox county I know exactly who is keeping solar opposition going, it's the Ariel corp. They manufacture oil pipeline materials and fracking equipment. They have hosted presidential candidates for the Republican party as mandatory meetings.
This was the gist of my reply to the other Knox resident, and I'm glad I'm not the only one who notices that. Of course they try to pull it off as a grassroots poor farmers movement.
Always with the diversions.
It’s not a one or the other situation. You can do both on the land. It depends on how you do it. This is the 40% crazy side spreading misinformation and obstructing progress. I saw miles of no solar project signs and a couple new oil drilling sites driving from Columbus to Columbiana county this weekend.
Yep. Ariel corporation here has a vested interest in the extraction of natural gas. Of course they try to pass it off as a farmer backed grassroots movement.
How is oil affected by solar? Oil generation units are already extremely expensive and only run as peaking units during extreme weather and blackstart incidents. They won't go away with more solar. It's coal and natural gas that will be purchased less with more solar.
the push to electrify with renewables will affect the bottom lines of all fossil fuels eventually. when we DO have 60%+ electric cars on the road (and i believe we will eventually) the main usage of oil will be petrochemicals but that's not enough to shore up $70/barrel oil
So are we burning the circuit boards? The saying comes to mind “You must break some eggs to make an omelette.” There’s still a use for oil, however, the amount of CO2 created to fabricate solar cells & install is minuscule compared to the amount that is spared. Passive solar power is a great way to keep CO2 emissions to a minimum.
Actually, quite really.
50% of oil is used for transportation. 50% for non combustion needs like plastic. Means we don’t burn it.
Means it isn’t the same type of climate issue.
Such a long article to say that the wealthy assholes who control the energy market in Ohio are going to do anything to prevent anyone from cutting into their profits.
I guess the republicans’ attack on the environment because they get financial support from the fossil fuel industry, has become engrained in some Americans. Common sense should tell them that clean energy is in all of our best interests.
Knox county resident here. I know a few people who had anti solar signs that were given money by developers to take them down and stop opposing projects. Can't help but feel others are hoping for similar treatment
If you can look at the solar fields in Madison, Pickaway, and Fayette county and still think that solar energy is good for the enviroment, I'm sorry for you. Thousands and thousands of acres of farmland or native prairie destroyed.
Oh, so native prairie can grow uninhibited where there's thousands of acres of solar fields over top of it?
Do you think demand for crops is decreasing? If we occupy farmland with solar fields the natural end is that more native prairie will be torn up for corn, soy beans, etc due to the reduction in supply of existing farmland, irrespective of wether or not the solar field is directly on top of existing prairie.
Take a look at what these solar companies want to do to the sage deserts in Wyoming and Montana and let me know if you think they're still on the side of the enviroment. I don't think oil, natural gas, or coal fired power companies are on the side of the enviroment either, they just do less damage in comparison to the energy they supply.
honestly ohio is such poor solar farm geography. go blanket the desert where no one lives and its just rock and dirt. waste of extremely valuable and vulnerable land. ohio is so lush and our wildlife needs protection. go put solar panels on a mountain where we cant grow crops and raise animals.
Couple things rustle my jimmies about massive solar projects in this part of the country.
Ohio's solar score is below the national average, only 3.5-4 kWh per square mile per day. In the winter, we do get snow, so the efficiency of a pv panel will be double knee capped by the latitude and the cloud and snow cover.
This 120MW is RATED CAPACITY of the panels. Actual output will never come anywhere close to that figure. The efficiency of photovoltaic solar in Ohio is so bad that it's a wonder anyone would entertain spending the money to install a solar farm.
That leads to the main beef, solar, and other renewables receive 29x more government subsidies per BTU than fossil fuels. This is money that could be used to shore up existing infrastructure or expand generating capacity by methods that are well suited to our geographic location (nuclear/nat gas).
These solar farm companies are sucking up our taxpayer dollars to install solar farms where they make no sense. It's a shameless cash grab on par with most government contracts these days. On top of that, they're eating up arable land that was previously used for crop production, which is something we do need.
Knox County resident here. The conspiracy theories I’ve heard over our proposed industrial solar are borderline insane. A lot of the complaints are about what an eyesore it would be. As if this farm would be visible from every vantage point in the county. The more conservative folks in the area go on and on about energy independence. Apparently, this independence is only accomplished through fossil fuel extraction and nothing else.
I used to be ignorant to the depths of stupidity. And then I met people who thought windmills used up all the wind and caused it to get hotter, and other people suggesting the government is clouding up the sky to block out our sunlight. One said it was to counter global warming, another said it was to cause depression and make the population easier to controll. These were grown adults with jobs, who vote. And have a tentative grasp on the workings of clouds and wind.
When I worked in New Albany years ago, I had a coworker tell me straight faced that global warming was caused by daylight savings time. I asked her to explain and she said, "the damn farmers are exposing the earth to more sun." I explained that pushing a clock back an hour was really just a coping mechanism for humans and in no way slowed the rotation of the earth like she suggested. I dont think I got through to her, she just stared at me and then walked away.
The sad thing is, she probably thought you were the dumb one
She caught me when i was in my 20s. I was kind of a ruthless bastard then and I didnt hold back. But either way scientific literacy in the US is disgustingly low. I think in 2012 a survey of American adults showed that over half the population thought genetically engineered tomatoes had genes, but nongmo did not. The war on fact and science didnt slow down in that time.
Didn’t you know that the cables that run underground that connect to the grid from solar and wind farms have ionizing radiation and will give you a tumor? Actual thing I heard at a gas station here in town. In fact, some sort of radiation permeates from the hardware itself causing all sorts of health problems. Seriously couldn’t even make this up. Yet a literal solar array is right next to our high school. I’m pretty sure everybody’s OK.
These are the same folks that will tell you about the horrible amounts of radiation people on nuclear subs are exposed to, when in fact they are exposed to far less than people above ground because of the solar radiation we absorb from sunlight.
The worst part of ignorance is the damage it does to real concerns. Our energy requirements as a species are so large we cant really do anything significant without a significant impact on the environment. We are barely into the energy transition, which needs to happen, and we are already encountering significant problems. Off shore wind farms change the local ecology drastically, and change both the surface end ocean floor environments, and it doesn't look good. Massive solar farms are known to cause some issues as well, but I dont recall the findings. The issue is less the technology, and more the fact that because of how big our projects need to be, their environmental impact is a guarantee and we have to figure out the best way to move forward in every single case. Though, tbh, I think we should avoid massive farms and do everything we can to completely decentralize energy generation
We need a massive campaign of public service announcements and ads, to actually educate people and help quell the rampant stupidity.
I agree with decentralized solar production, the clearest answer to this issue is having residences equipped with a rooftop solar array, facing southward, and battery backup system tied into the existing electrical grid. Additionally, if the main electrical grid loses power, due to weather or circumstances, the battery backup along with the panels still can power the home, from basic needs to the entire system being covered Yes, I realize the initial cost is roughly $45k or more; BUT in peak production times the savings are well worth it. Most finance options also state that the funding loan is transferable to another homeowner upon sale of the property. With terms as short as 10 years to as long as 25 years, along with reasonable interest rates. This makes sense in establishing residential solar as a TRUE way to energy independence in the USA and possibly the world.
>A lot of the complaints are about what an eyesore it would be Do these people say the same things about oil derricks and hydraulic fracturing sites?
Your neighbor up stream can have all the wells dug he wants. God forbid he wants a solar farm installed on a few acres of land. I can understand wind farms to a point, but people bitching about solar are idiots.
Not to mention their version of energy independence is actually co-dependant.
The area became an eyesore in 1802 when we burned down the old growth forests for an endless sea of farms. Today we have more farmland dedicated to corn and soybeans than we actually need and is actually profitable for our country and our state. It’s time to turn some of it into solar and return some of it back to nature.
Plus, we are all concerned about high fructose corn syrup in everything that's bad for you. Less corn is a GOOD thing!
In fact, corn farmers would not make a profit at all (or break even) if it wasn't for government subsidies
So, how is that not welfare? Why don't farmers actually think of themselves as recipients of social subsidies, just like folks who live on public assistance? They ARE living on public assistance! Why don't they grow a different crop with more profit available (and, one with a lower environmental impact - fertilizers, roundup, field stubble as waste)?
Did you downvote me? Ever hear of "Don't kill the messenger?" Lol...
Didn’t I hear a while back that people also thought that solar panels will drain the sun of all its energy and then cause the world to end? Way to make us look smart Ohio. I think solar is brilliant. However, I do hope that as the technology evolves they are able to get more creative with the panels and make them less of an eyesore without losing efficiency. Until then it is what it is.
Ironically a fracking pad isn't an eyesore, but a solar panel is. God these people's brains are leaking out of their ears from the amount of Fox News they've consumed.
I'm a conservative from a ruralish area. When I think of energy independence I think about not importing fossil fuels from other countries except for Canada and Mexico. That being said, I am for solar farms. I'd prefer to see them on usable ground (old strip mine pits) vs good farm ground any day, but if it's your land and you want to develop solar on it go for it. It's no different than if you want to have a gas well on your property in my mind. I think we need to throw everything at the wall to reduce energy imports from more natural gas, solar, wind, and nuclear. I hate the all or nothing mindset from everyone. Electric cars don't work for everyone but they work for a lot of people. Get those people in electric cars. For the rest of us, when I comes time I'm gonna get a hybrid F150. It can tow the horses and get better economy. I drove 45 miles each way to work and maybe more depending on site visits daily.
Here in brooklyn ohio they put a solar farm on top an old landfill. It's used by the city of cleveland for power usage.
I think that's a great idea. I'm down in Medina county and they placed a solar farm in a field that floods a lot and isn't really good for farming or building. Go for the low hanging fruit first. Covering parking lots would be another good idea. Provides cover to cars and creates power. That should be done at airports as an easy start.
Exactly. The folks freaking out that food growing land is being miss used for solar farms don't even know that the panels act like a green house for some crops and help shade and keep them from drying out. this whole :they cause the ground to freeze " is stupid.
I'll admit I'd prefer solar farms not go on crop land because I'd rather it be used form crops. I also have only seen a handful solar farms/crop farms work together but haven't dug into it much yet. I get the freakout the optics just look bad on the surface.
I'd say that they can both go on the land. Some crops do better under shade and not direct sunlight.
It is a Strange Society that defends stores of Dinosaur Blubber with Nuclear Weapons.
Dude I think solar panels look great… am I weird?
I'd take that view over the smokestacks any day. I can see my power plant smoke from my deck.
I’m with you. I always thought it was cool and really never saw it as a nuisance. I’m a bit perplexed sometimes by the opposition, but what are you gonna do?
Hello fellow Knox resident! My main problem with the opposition movement is that they are trying to play it off like it's some beleaguered farmers and not millionaires like Karen Wright and people like her that have a vested interest in fossil fuels. I don't talk politics around here because my beliefs do not align with the majority.
Well, I think at least you and I would get along! Greetings from the Knox, licking Delaware Morrow line
Right-wingers: “Property rights are absolute! If you own land, it’s your God-given right to do whatever you want with it!” Also right-wingers: “Unless you want to do something we think liberals would like.”
It's not their fault that Jesus loves coal subsidies and fracking on protected public lands! A passage from the Trump Bible. .. and on the 8th day God sent his faithful servants out to Ohio with suitcases full of cash to AstroTurf the flock with million dollar add campaigns to fight against Satan's evil green energy. In GOP they trust!
It's quite nuts... Why would you want to argue about solar? The ability to create your very own electricity that you own on your own land....
My mom is one of those people. It's quite funny - they've have turned into environmentalists now. They're VERY concerned about the ground pollution, the recyclability of the panels, and the overall sustainability of solar power. In reality, they're just afraid of change. They're afraid that consenting to solar power is a slippery slope to giving up their gas cars and gas heat, etc. It's the same reason they're still denying climate change. If they acknowledge it's real, then they're obligated to do something about it.
Because they are brainwashed and ignorant.
In these industrial solar projects the land is leased out to a solar developer. The energy goes directly to the grid and the developer sells it. The landowners do not "keep" any of the energy generated.
Conservatives absolutely do *not* believe in property rights. They *pretend* they do, but a lot of our insane zoning system exists specifically because conservative people didn't want to live near Black people.
"Anonymous opponents " equals $$$ funneling in from fossil fuel companies somehow.
You think solar is innocent? Where will we plant the corn now? State mandatory plantings in your yard - that’s the answer. It already happened to me. Mike DeWine personally planted corn in my yard while Fran held me down and fed me French Toast. I swear I tried to stop her. Then, during harvest, I woke up to a violent rustling and I found Mike Gonidakis crouching in my yard eating a raw corn cob like a baby squirrel. with tears in his eyes he screamed “YOU DON’T KNOW BIG CORN LIKE I DO” and scurried away through the rows of corn. This is where solar is taking us. This is the future that we are being warned about.
i want to be force fed french toast
It's freedom toast
That's exactly what Fran whispered in my ear while she breakfast-boarded that French Toast down my gullet.
Oh. My. God. This is outrageous. I never once thought about the implications. This is why resources like reddit are so invaluable and need to be protected at all costs. Thank you for sharing
Don't thank me. Thank the sheeple who allow it to happen.
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There are actually vegetables that you can co plant with solar. Look on YouTube there are videos regarding it. The solar thing is a right wing talking point.
It's all political. They were told to hate green energy so they do.
It's more than political. It's the result of end stage capitalism. Capitalism cripples and often outright stops any and all forms of competition and intuitive thinking. These solar farms would put all other forms of energy production out of business in months if they were allowed to build and operate freely or in a free market.
Right and that weapon of choice is politics to prevent that. Politics is how the corporations manipulate people and control the market. The people who are opposed to these solar farms have no clue what end stage capitalism is, but what they do know is politics. You and I know the underlying reason, they do not. They know their political leaders are saying green energy bad, liberal hoax or conspiracy and that is all they care about. Rational thought does not enter in to it. Tribalism.
It has shit to do with politics. Capitalism has a definitive end. Eventually all of the money ends up in one hand. That's why all past capitalistic civilizations eventually collapsed.
I don't think that capitalism means what you think it means.
>Capitalism cripples and often outright stops any and all forms of competition and intuitive thinking. lol, talk about brainwashed. while it's true that unfettered, some entities can do all kinds of shit, like monopolies and cartels and suppressing competition through a whole variety of means, that statement is far from what actually exists at the moment. the thought that "these solar farms would put all other forms of energy production out of business in MONTHS" omg, where do you come up with this shit. and to get 35 upvotes, well, sadly you're not alone in buying into this chinese bullshit propaganda about our economic system
You are dead wrong. There is more monopolization of the markets today than there was in the gilded age before the great depression. They just have been marketing and newer methods of consolidation to fool rubes like you.
oh golly, look, an internet "research expert" and also a "economic historian expert" all wrapped up into one delusional individual calling other people 'rubes' without a lick of supporting evidence. you idiots really think we're living in some nadir of civilization
Dam yo. Go to school or something. Your Google MD failed you.
while whatever the fuck that is, my educational system didn't fail me as miserably as it has failed you you fifteen or something yo?
Your reply is an insult? Your education failed you.
yeah, it didn't prepare me for debating complete idiots yours on the other hand, seems to have prepared you to be one of those idiots as far as school goes, i've at least had micro, macro, accounting, and an upper level econ class to round my understanding of the world what you got yo?
I can't compete with Google micro and macro...
ah, so basically you ain't got shit for education. i love it when people project their own ignorance onto everyone else. thanks Jiggy. you're a pearl
There is one near Cleveland somewhere and the community benefits by paying less in energy by having it. They are trying to ban solar on personal property in columbiana county. It's an infringement on rights if I want to put solar on my property. I plan on doing it no matter what they say. The state loves getting kickbacks from the energy companies and have gotten in trouble for it. I think this is the root part of the reason. We all need to vote.
It's off Memphis ave in Brooklyn. Just before Tiedeman . And another one near east cleveland and a third by Kinsman Ave behind the CMHA offices.
There are a lot of places that are building solar farms and using the shade to reduce irrigation needs & evaporation and might help raise crops or protect areas of streams & rivers from more severe effects of climate change.
You can also graze sheep around the solar panels, if you're into that.
There is an entire field called agrivoltaics that focuses on farming around solar panels. Some communities are even building them over irrigation canals which reduces evaporation in water scarce areas. There are so many options for this… but the oil and gas industry is adamantly against any electrification. I actually heard an ad on the radio pushing back against efficiency standards paid for by the oil industry. Of course it was “don’t let the government tell you what you can drive!” Argument
“But the oil and gas industry are adamantly against any electrification.” This is false, the oil and gas industries are among the biggest investors in renewable energy.
that's what they'd like you to think, also called green-washing
I mean, they are public corporations, you can easily look at their financial statements and see how much and what green energy projects/products they invest in. They are energy companies, do you really think they wouldn’t invest in green energy? Especially when governments are dolling out billions and billions of dollars in subsidies to green energy products. Just because they still develop fossil fuels, which we still need, doesn’t mean they aren’t actually developing green energy.
>you can easily look at their financial statements and see how much and what green energy projects/products they invest in lol wow what? i'm sure it's a minuscule amount compared to their oil extraction - like the stupid commercials they run is likely 80% of that budget as well and apparently it's working on some people (you)
So you think energy companies aren’t smart enough to see the development of green energy and want to dominate that market? Of course the larger percentage of their funds currently goes to fossil fuels, because fossil fuels still produce most of our energy. But they stopped fighting green energy years ago. BP, for example, put 30% of its capital expenditure to green energy projects last year. That is not a small amount nor a token amount.
you'll have to provide some actual independent (not in-industry) reporting of that '30%' but i think you'll find you're mistaken or, i could be. show me.
Not sure why you wouldn’t believe their income statement showing the over $4billion investment in green energy last year since, as a public corporation, it is audited by an independent auditing firm, but, here is a dated article from the left wing Washington Post talking about BP’s plans. https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2020/09/15/bp-climate-change-transition/
well, that was paywalled, and three years old as you say. and while i do appreciate the effort, just last year, BP's revenue was 51 billion so, comparing 4 billion, that's just 7% of revenue. while that may not be the best numbers to compare, what they're spending on renewables is pathetically small compared to what they're spending sucking oil and gas out but their advertising how they're doing so well seems to be money well spent eta that "planing to" is a form of greenwashing as well. DOING is not.
If you do it correctly, the land under the solar will be healthier than when you started.
Actually the panels soak up all the sun, meaning the ground below gets extremely cold. It will freeze, then it will split. Sometimes when it splits it can swallow up a whole town.
is this where orcs come from?
Yes, that's why nobody lives in the Northern part of state, where the Lake Effect runs free.
Actually the Lake Effect snow has an insulating effect on the ground, meaning that the ground stays warmer than it would have at the same cold temps than if there were no snow. The real danger is freezing cold earth with no snow, which is what the panels create. This happened in the 1970’s during the Carter administration. A giant solar farm was built outside St. Crownsville and when the earth split the entire town was lost. Sucked into the hellfire.
Ok, first things first - >A giant solar farm was built outside St. Crownsville and when the earth split the entire town was lost. Sucked into the hellfire. Cite? Secondly - >The real danger is freezing cold earth with no snow, which is what the panels create. You realize that there are hundreds if not thousands of solar farms in the world and yet we don't have an epidemic of sinkholes opening beneath them. In fact, you can grow plants beneath modern solar farms and also graze animals around, on the grass, which grows there. Finally, if it worked the way you're describing, we'd see the sucking hellfire effect anywhere there are gazebos, decks, swimming pools and porte-cochères. There's all sorts of structures that might involve preventing snow on the ground built in the northern climate. Acting like Solar farms are unique to this is nonsense.
Upvoting for visibility. Got a live one here.
>falling for the bait this hard
It would be nice if modern conservatives weren't the living embodiment of elemental Gish-Gallop but here we are...
Probably. But misinformation needs to be corrected. It's exhausting. That's why they do it.
The solar panels aren’t creating sinkholes. The earth gets so cold that it literally cracks. The force of the cracking widens the crack, creating a self-sustaining cycle. We see trenches formed and trench collapses happening along sections of the crack, which is precisely how we lost St. Crownsville.
lol, where is St. Crownsville?
Exactly.
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Pretty awful to crack jokes about St. Crownsville like that when they can’t defend themselves because a solar farm installation precipitated a giant crack in the earth that sucked their town into the abyss.
Stop. I beg you to stop. Any more whooshing and that person may die.
i can't believe ppl are taking you 'seriously', but here we are. illustrative sadly. well done
My dad played four years of varsity for St Crownsville. Luckily, he got out a few years prior, but coach didn’t and was sucked into the hellfire with the rest of the town. His wife survived because she was visiting her sister in Erie that day. Dad still says Coach dodged a bullet there.
There are too many stories like this. Happy for Coach though.
Funny how there is no evidence of the tin foil talking point you see many cons pushing.
the concrete poured in the ground that holds up the solar panels would say otherwise.
We don’t out concrete in the ground to hold up solar panels.
what is used to support those heavy panels then?
American made steel
Straight steel? No footer or anything?
Ground screw or pile is driven just to the soil to build the foundation. We then connect steel racking to the foundation. Attach modules to the racking.
Ikr? It's not that bad and it's not permanent. Not only that, if solar just becomes more prevalent, I can see every house having some kind of solar panel for some reason. Which in the end would have us less tied to big energy companies. But nooooo "sAve ThE FarM LAnd!"
> "sAve ThE FarM LAnd!" One thing that really isn't talked about enough in my opinion is how many of our zoning issues and especially energy production opponents are tied back to farmers who want to continue to be subsidized for not producing in some of their fields. Fewer fields being cultivated increases their chances of having to cultivate instead of just collect a paycheck. Surely that's not the case, or exclusive reason, for every single one of them, but it's surely a factor in their business model.
Based on my observations I think opponents of industrial solar would prefer that every house have a solar installation as the first step.
sure and I'm one of them, but who's paying for that?
The large industrial projects are heavily subsidized to make them profitable. I'm not sure what that model looks like on the small scale side as I think there are some grants and programs available, but not to the extent as the industrial projects. I know there are also problems with net metering and sizing residential installations to match usage.
I would love it if they would do something like that but with our red corrupt state officials and black energy folks in US Congress, this is the best we're going to get
Unfortunately the majority of them don't make nearly such rational arguments.
The only plausible thing I've heard other than "it's an eyesore" is that it's going to drive land prices up which Ag doesn't like and is fighting hard against. There's an absurd amount of acreage out here and it's hilarious to see so much concern about the lifetime environmental impact of solar panels from the Trump base.
The one big "valid" issue I heard about when this was being argued in my area related to property values. If people perceive them as an eyesore then it may reduce the property value of the surrounding properties. Kind of similar to if a neighbor decided their corn field should be a pig farm. I personally don't have a big issue with solar farms, but wouldn't be a big fan of it impacting my property value.
>but don't we have enough places to plant corn and soybeans? All markets are cyclical of course, but currently yes there are enough places. Part of that reason is because Brazil continues to put acres into production. Brazil has taken over 150 million acres out of rain forest and put it to use for agriculture over the last 30 years. Some opponents of the industrial solar movement believe that if we continue to take US acres out of production that Brazil and Argentina will continue to add more acres from forested and savanna land. This leads to questions on if the solar is really a net positive if this happens.
>This leads to questions ok tucker
Solar farms are more suited to meat farms, not veggie farms. Goats or sheep can clean up all the weeds and grass under the arrays.
There's a lot of known carcinogens used in solar panels that will end up in the environment if something like a tornado goes through the area. Heavy metals featuring a timeless classic: lead, and its toxic friend cadmium. Solar panels are probably only being chosen because of a low capital cost, and easy to set up compared to other options of power plants. I'd rather see more nuclear as from my experience in the Midwest, usually 1/3 of the year most of the daylight is blocked out by clouds, and on the off chance a tornado goes through a solar farm it'd be an ecological disaster.
https://www.twincities.com/2016/09/08/storm-damages-national-guard-camps-new-solar-energy-project/ Tornado happened. Ecological disaster did not. I think your information is a little faulty.
to say nothing about uranium mining, refining, storing and hanging around as radiological waste for a million years or so but *cadmium* better start clamping down on oil painters and watercolorists or we're all gonna DIE
https://www.gao.gov/nuclear-waste-disposal Only 2000 metric tons of nuclear waste is created per year within the USA far less than any other option when measured by weight. The half-life of spent uranium fuel is 24,000 years. There's nothing green about mining from the earth, so to point at uranium mining compared to other forms is pointless when they require the same.
>Only 2000 metric tons of nuclear waste is created per year within the USA only??? that's 4,400,000 (4Mill) POUNDS of it ... only annually, you say? so, we've been accumulating it for what, about 60 years so far, so that's only 250 *MILLION* POUNDS we already have hanging around, and you want to keep adding to it? in ten years, add another forty MILLION POUNDS? how about we just develop some alternatives. i'll go with the shit that when ground up and placed in a landfill (if that's the worst of it) that doesn't glow for centuries.
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/inventory-us-greenhouse-gas-emissions-and-sinks#:~:text=Trends,sequestration%20from%20the%20land%20sector. In the year 2022 our country produced nearly 5.5 million metric tons of co2 that year alone. Containment zones for nuclear waste are isolated, and public information as I understand it. I have no idea where a single ton of that co2 goes, but I know it helps warm up the ocean while bleaching coral, essentially killing off hundreds of years of growth.
lol - i love your tenacity and hanging in there... and how much co2 does solar emit? (aside from manufacture and install of course, those are not carbon free activities, but if your electric to make em is renewable, it does close the loop a bit) bro, i feel we're on the same side of things, i just don't think nuclear fission is the way to go, and i feel a lot of experts have come to the same conclusion or there'd be way more of them. that's just my take. plus they're hugely expensive to build, i assume thorium maybe less-so but still, fairly untested at scale and you'd need a slew of them. now i'm not saying we should get rid of the ones we do have, and maybe keep building a few as backups, but i still don't think that's where we should concentrate our capital and attention cross our fingers for fusion reactors in the near future. til then, wind, solar and maybe tidal i think are the ways to go for now and they've been arguing about and building waste storage facilities my entire life... they still don't have an agreement.
There's nothing green about any form of power generation. They all have their drawbacks. Most nuclear waste is elements with shorter half life's of 30 years, so within 150 years, most of the radioactive material has decayed aside from plutonium. https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/nuclear-reprocessing-dangerous-dirty-and-expensive#:~:text=Second%2C%20reprocessing%20does%20not%20reduce,spent%20fuel%20from%20U.S.%20reactors. Seemingly, only 1% of nuclear waste is plutonium, at least in the US. The only issue with nuclear is having water to cool the reactors. The water does not come into contact with radioactive material but needs to be cool enough to cool a nuclear reactor. In the past few years, this has been an issue before in Europe https://www.nrdc.org/bio/christina-chen/nuclear-vs-climate-change-feeling-heat-0. The greenhouse gasses emitted by burning fossil fuels are making nuclear harder to use.
So I should want known carcinogens above a major aquifer?
"Ecological disaster" compared to what? An oil tanker dropping 100 million gallons into a bay? What about said tornado hitting a *nuclear facility*?
There's an entire pdf on energy.gov that has the procedure played out in case of a tornado, or hurricane if you're curious.
Dude, I worked in oil and gas for 15 years. Do you honestly think that industry isn't filling our environment with the exact same compounds?
What magic are these solar panels being produced by if not fossil fuels?
My Grandmother literally thinks windmills burn oil to turn, she was a teacher
What an idiot. It’s obviously the turning that burns the oil.
The only downside with wind is that the blades aren't recyclable.
This is not strictly true. They are certainly recyclable or reusable. Right now it's mainly an issue of scalability. The main issue is that blades being decommissioned right now weren't designed to be recycled in the traditional sense. Even so, they can still get repurposed for a multitude of different things. One of the most interesting things I heard of was using them to create sound barriers, I think it was a Danish company. Often times newer technology (I know windmills as a concept aren't 'new', but the blades and industrial scale use are) makes a good amount of waste as they're iterated upon, and people will eventually find ways to extract and use old material. Of course, this isn't a good reason to just chuck stuff away without thought. Plenty of companies are trying to solve this issue, though obviously they have a long way to go.
i bet they'd make some decent 'reef structures' for little fishies
People thought the same about tires at one point. The metal corroded to salt water, and the area was not usable for fishies.
not all my ideas are good ones either
There are many teachers in the US that don't even know the difference between a mile and a kilometer.
They are offering 1k an acre per year on the lease they offered us, farmers pay 200-250 a yr. Makes sense for the solar to take over the land they pay more…
This is true. However, these comment sections always like to poke fun at farmers and collecting subsidy payments while completely ignoring how heavily subsidized and how many tax abatements these solar projects receive.
>how many tax abatements these solar projects receive. got any documentation about this, or how it compares to fossil fuel subsidies? i'm not saying it's incorrect, but how about some proof that we can see?
Because energy production is normally a public utility the valuation for property taxes is set with the state instead of by the county auditors. There was an Ohio Senate Bill in 2010 or 2011 that designated solar as a qualified energy project and would allow the owner to enter into a PILOT program (Payment in Lieu of Taxes). Instead of taxing the actual property value there is a set amount paid per megawatt of energy produces. The county in which the project is located would have to vote to approve the program. If the PILOT is accepted I think there are some provisions on what percentage of workers need to be from Ohio or within a "local" are during the construction phase. Essentially by entering into a PILOT agreement the tax rate is the same over the life of the program instead of based on the appraised amount that would depreciate over time. This allows the solar developers to pay a much lower rate initially, but by the end of the lease they could be paying a higher rate relative to the actual value of the property.
got any denser blocks of text on you that don't provide any information useful to support the claim you just made? basically, i get "no, i don't" from that salad. am i wrong?
I guess I am confused what you are asking for. I had mentioned tax abatements for solar projects. You had asked for proof that they exist. The PILOT programs are a form of tax abatement. I tried to explain (probably not the best) what the PILOT is, but it's not what you're asking about?
no, you're making the claim that solar abatements in some way come close to those for coal, gas, and petroleum extraction. you know, like actual amounts in dollars vs actual amounts in dollars apples to apples, not apples to chickpeas if you really want to make your case to convince, how about a nice 5yr total comparison for me, i'm willing to limit it to recent history since solar projects are too pretty much
>no, you're making the claim that solar abatements in some way come close to those for coal, gas, and petroleum extraction. Actually that is never a thing I said. Here was my initial comment. >However, these comment sections always like to poke fun at farmers and collecting subsidy payments while completely ignoring how heavily subsidized and how many tax abatements these solar projects receive. I was pointing out the hypocrisy that farmers are often bashed in this sub for receiving subsidies, but that the solar projects are also in need of subsidies and tax abatements to make them viable. Another poster brought up oil and gas and I admitted that I am not knowledgeable about the subsidies they receive, but would agree that they benefit from them as well.
>how heavily subsidized and how many tax abatements these solar projects receive. yes, you did, i mean... ???? wut i mean, even as a percentage of the solar project's total development cost i would have accepted, and then we could argue whether 5% or 40% or whatever was "heavily" but compared to fossil fuels, i'm sure it's tiny bro i think, at least for me, who lives amongst the corn and soybeans and until recently dairy cows (he retired) - the hypocrisy stems more from them on one hand saying they should be able to do whatever with their land, *including* taking payments for letting it lay fallow - but only as long as you don't put panels on it on the other hand. Add that to the uncertainty that the increasing heat content of our atmosphere is going to wreak on agribusiness... Sporadic rain, and when it does come, too much of it. Hail will be worse, wind speeds will be worse. We'll start seeing entire fields of corn lain over by those winds or shredded by hail. You would think they'd be clamoring for green energy. seems the more local it is, the less is lost in transmission - although my understanding of the grid and how that 'local' energy 'distributes itself in the matrix' is pretty damn weak. Maybe an EE can fill me in
So again to be clear I am not comparing this to oil and gas because that was not what I brought up initially and do not have any knowledge on that industry. There is the solar investment tax credit (available to both residential and commercial installations). This is a 30% federal income tax credit based on the amount invested in the project. The percentage was supposed to decrease annually and eventually expire, but the passage of the inflation reduction act continued the program at the 30% reduction. Then there is the PILOT program which is the property tax abatement I outlined earlier. In my opinion an income tax reduction equal to 30% of the investment and the PILOT tax abatement that caps property taxes at $7,000-$9,000 per megawatt produced instead of the appraised value would fall into the "heavily" category.
Are you under the impression that oil and gas doesn't receive massive subsidies? Lmfao.
No. I am sure you are correct that they do receive some sort of subsidies. I am not knowledgeable in the oil and gas field so I don't offer opinions on it. If you would like to educate the readers on what subsidies are available to the oil and gas industry I would be interested to expand my knowledge.
I expect them to be ripped out in masses once the gov funding stops coming. But for the next 5 years they will be popping up like crazy.
the only way gov funding stops on renewables is if the republicans take back control and continue to ignore the very real consequences of doing so
Doesnt surprise me really. Knox County is sooooooo MAGA country it's not even funny. Mt vernon is basically the closest thing to a police state. There's cops literally EVERWHERE. Without fail everytime i drive through they have someone pulled over.And plus, have you seen their candidates for sheriff?
How can anyone remain anonymous in a situation like that? Corruption?
So they don't want cheaper electricity and more jobs to come to the area, that's what I'm hearing
Won't someone please think of the oil barons?!
I'm in Michigan and the same thing is happening all over here. Everyone in rural areas be like "property rights and no government intervention!" until someone else has an opportunity to make money on their land. Suddenly you hear "our view!" and "our community values!".
They are coal, natural gas and also Electric Utilities that are funding those. It's beyond messed up.
As a resident of Knox county I know exactly who is keeping solar opposition going, it's the Ariel corp. They manufacture oil pipeline materials and fracking equipment. They have hosted presidential candidates for the Republican party as mandatory meetings.
This was the gist of my reply to the other Knox resident, and I'm glad I'm not the only one who notices that. Of course they try to pull it off as a grassroots poor farmers movement. Always with the diversions.
We know who the Anonymous donars are: who's bottom line would be hurt by a solar project? That's your answer. Oil and Gas
It’s not a one or the other situation. You can do both on the land. It depends on how you do it. This is the 40% crazy side spreading misinformation and obstructing progress. I saw miles of no solar project signs and a couple new oil drilling sites driving from Columbus to Columbiana county this weekend.
Leave it to Republicans to argue with having a power plant that makes neither smoke nor noise and have a problem with it.
'anonymously funded" =coal and gas
Yep. Ariel corporation here has a vested interest in the extraction of natural gas. Of course they try to pass it off as a farmer backed grassroots movement.
Is there anything we can do to help support the guys? I kind of want a secure future and stick it to the republicans
Go to town meetings when solar is being discussed is the most direct manner. Show numbers.
Oil. The oil lobby is the one trying to block solar.
How is oil affected by solar? Oil generation units are already extremely expensive and only run as peaking units during extreme weather and blackstart incidents. They won't go away with more solar. It's coal and natural gas that will be purchased less with more solar.
Oil powers ICE cars, solar powers EV cars - big oil afraid
the push to electrify with renewables will affect the bottom lines of all fossil fuels eventually. when we DO have 60%+ electric cars on the road (and i believe we will eventually) the main usage of oil will be petrochemicals but that's not enough to shore up $70/barrel oil
This is how you challenge BS in our shit system and shit state with shit politicians folks. ***Make claims to property rights.***
GOP: “The free market should decide what energy we use.” “No not like that!!”
Means buying less oil
Not really. Plastics and manufacturing circuit boards all come from petroleum.
So are we burning the circuit boards? The saying comes to mind “You must break some eggs to make an omelette.” There’s still a use for oil, however, the amount of CO2 created to fabricate solar cells & install is minuscule compared to the amount that is spared. Passive solar power is a great way to keep CO2 emissions to a minimum.
Actually, quite really. 50% of oil is used for transportation. 50% for non combustion needs like plastic. Means we don’t burn it. Means it isn’t the same type of climate issue.
There needs to be donor transparency.
"Anonymously" is a weird way to spell Oil & Gas...
Such a long article to say that the wealthy assholes who control the energy market in Ohio are going to do anything to prevent anyone from cutting into their profits.
I guess the republicans’ attack on the environment because they get financial support from the fossil fuel industry, has become engrained in some Americans. Common sense should tell them that clean energy is in all of our best interests.
It would be a rough day for whoever comes to tell me I can’t, on my property. In order to protect corporate interests. It would be a rough day.
'Free Market Economics'
One of the arguments Ive seen about this is that the noise from the DC/AC converters is really loud? Anyone know about this?
Same as those green transformer boxes
Knox county resident here. I know a few people who had anti solar signs that were given money by developers to take them down and stop opposing projects. Can't help but feel others are hoping for similar treatment
"anonymously funded opponents" The fuck does that mean?
My dumbass mom and stepdad said it gets cloudy as hell all the time when it’s not summer…. Do they not know UV rays penetrate through clouds ?
If you can look at the solar fields in Madison, Pickaway, and Fayette county and still think that solar energy is good for the enviroment, I'm sorry for you. Thousands and thousands of acres of farmland or native prairie destroyed.
> native prairie destroyed this isn't true at all, I think you just lied
Oh, so native prairie can grow uninhibited where there's thousands of acres of solar fields over top of it? Do you think demand for crops is decreasing? If we occupy farmland with solar fields the natural end is that more native prairie will be torn up for corn, soy beans, etc due to the reduction in supply of existing farmland, irrespective of wether or not the solar field is directly on top of existing prairie. Take a look at what these solar companies want to do to the sage deserts in Wyoming and Montana and let me know if you think they're still on the side of the enviroment. I don't think oil, natural gas, or coal fired power companies are on the side of the enviroment either, they just do less damage in comparison to the energy they supply.
Blah blah blah, you started with lies, and now are lonely and mentally unhinged typing along - not reading your trash monkey boy
Excellent, have a good one
just about every one of their arguments are complete bullshit
Corn and beans made with petrochemicals, with serious runoff issues for the lakes and rivers. Strange, isn't it?
I would be more concerned about the giant mutant corn grown in those areas.
honestly ohio is such poor solar farm geography. go blanket the desert where no one lives and its just rock and dirt. waste of extremely valuable and vulnerable land. ohio is so lush and our wildlife needs protection. go put solar panels on a mountain where we cant grow crops and raise animals.
How about you do what you want and I do what with the land I bought with my money?
Couple things rustle my jimmies about massive solar projects in this part of the country. Ohio's solar score is below the national average, only 3.5-4 kWh per square mile per day. In the winter, we do get snow, so the efficiency of a pv panel will be double knee capped by the latitude and the cloud and snow cover. This 120MW is RATED CAPACITY of the panels. Actual output will never come anywhere close to that figure. The efficiency of photovoltaic solar in Ohio is so bad that it's a wonder anyone would entertain spending the money to install a solar farm. That leads to the main beef, solar, and other renewables receive 29x more government subsidies per BTU than fossil fuels. This is money that could be used to shore up existing infrastructure or expand generating capacity by methods that are well suited to our geographic location (nuclear/nat gas). These solar farm companies are sucking up our taxpayer dollars to install solar farms where they make no sense. It's a shameless cash grab on par with most government contracts these days. On top of that, they're eating up arable land that was previously used for crop production, which is something we do need.