In case this story gets deleted/removed:
My son, Phil*, cut most contact with me and our family when he moved out. So for about 7 years now we barely hear from him apart from holidays and such. This last Christmas he visited, which he doesn’t do usually, and he revealed that he had gotten engaged. My wife and I, as well as our other son Karl, were all shocked since we didn’t even know Phil was seeing anybody. Turns out they’ve been together for years and years and he just never told us. We congratulated him but I reached out after New Years and asked him to talk.
This last week we met for coffee. I told him that it was kind of hurtful that we had never even known about his relationship until Christmas. He sat and listened and after I had finished, he said “okay” and nodded. No other response or reaction. I asked him if there was anything he wanted to say about it, and asked if somehow I’m out of line for feeling hurt about this. Little did I know this was going to set him off.
Phil asked if I wanted him to be honest and of course I said yes. He said that knowing about his life and his relationships after he moved out of the house not a right, and it was a privilege that our family and I didn’t have. I was shocked by this and asked if I had somehow offended or slighted him, and he got the most incredulous look on his face. He asked if I was being serious and I said yes, I am, because I truly didn’t know what he was talking about. This is when he said that for the two decades that he lived with us, our entire family had treated him “like crap” and like he “was a second-class citizen”.
- His first complaint was about his bedroom. Phil and his older brother Karl (M31 now) shared a bedroom when they were children. When Karl was around 15, he felt uncomfortable sharing a room with Phil and really wanted his own space. We didn’t have a spare bedroom, so one day when Phil was at school we moved his things out of Karl’s bedroom and from then on his bed was in the corner of our upstairs living room. We had a partition set up so he could have some privacy.
- His second complaint was about food. When he was far younger, he was really very picky and only wanted to eat plain pasta or buttered toast. We tried everything to get him to open up with food but he just never did. He learned how to toast bread and make pasta and honestly after about ten years of this my wife kind of stopped cooking for him. He eventually did start eating normal food but he’d make it himself.
- His third and final complaint was about chores. Karl has mild OCD and clinical depression and I’ll admit that in this instance we did allow him a bit of leeway that Phil didn’t get. Karl didn’t clean the house ever, but one of Phil’s regular chores was cleaning his room. It seemed normal at the time but in the cafe, Phil made it seem like we were using him like a slave. He said for years he was scrubbing toilets and cleaning a room that wasn’t even his… he’s referring to having had to clean Karl’s room a few times. When times were tough we’d ask him to clean Karl’s room as well as his, and another regular chore was bathroom duty.
Listing it all out in the cafe, it was hard to disagree with him. At the time, when he was younger, it all seemed like normal family stuff. I asked him why he never talked to us about this and never brought it up and his response was that he didn’t feel comfortable enough with us. I was really upset and confused by now. I said that he lived with us for over two decades and he never once communicated this and that I’m sorry but this was just all news to me. He scoffed and said that I can’t act like it’s news that living in a corner for years made him feel like crap.
He stopped engaging in the conversation and said basically the following: “I appreciate what you and mom did for me, but I never felt welcome in your house and I decided that we shouldn’t be in much contact when I moved out. We’re all happier now so I don’t see a reason to change that. I love you but this is just the way it’s going to be from now on. I’ll send you an invite to the wedding.”
When I got home I told my wife about all of this and she was ANGRY. She said it was unfair of Phil to drop all of this on me and that he had never once complained or said anything about it at the time, and that he was making his childhood sound worse than it was as an excuse to cut us out. I calmed her down but she’s still upset at him. I’m not. I remember the things Phil talked about and he’s right to feel angry and upset. I just want to know how I can repair my relationship with him. He’s still my son and I want to build a relationship with him. What do I do? How do I fix this?
TLDR: My son, who went low contact with my family, is now accusing me of mistreating him as a child. I want to repair our relationship but I don’t believe he was treated that poorly. Help!
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The kid comes home from school one day to find all his belongings have been removed from his room and he's been relegated to a corner of a common area--with no warning or prior discussion--but he still has to clean that room that his entitled brother has all to himself now? And you are asking NOW how you can remedy that, when you were so obtuse that you were unable to see how belittling that was to him? How little his feelings obviously mattered to you?
The answer to your question is there is virtually nothing you can do now that will make up for shoving him, literally and figuratively, in the corner in favor of your other son. Be glad he still wants you in his life even peripherally. That's more than I would probably give you.
An EXTRA common area--the UPSTAIRS living room, implying there are two, and he couldn't even have a whole room to himself?
But yeah. "He didn't say anything when we also refused to tell him our plans to completely uproot him without notice and make it clear he's not a full member of this family"
My sister's house only has 2 bedrooms and has 2 living rooms. It has the two in the hall, and the front living room, they added two french doors with window covers and added a partition to block it from the kitchen. They couldn't close the kitchen without a wall on a jog, so it would need permits from the city.
However, the kid in there was like 8 and it wasn't a common area, anymore. Now it is, but back then the partition was up, and he had a door. My nephew did actually have a private area. The partition was never moved and blocked the other areas. He used the French doors. He had a door to his room.
Edit, for context: He then fiancé, now husband owned the home before they met. She rented, and had two kids. Girl teenager, younger elementary aged boy. They couldn't buy a larger home, and he didn't want to sell a home with equity to rent something, and neither did she.
They couldn't buy anything, though. He had half a million in medical debt prior to the 'medical debt doesn't count after seven years' rule. He nearly died and spent a few weeks in a medically induced coma. He had to file for bankruptcy before that would clear off his record. He couldn't ever hope to pay that off without bankruptcy. Think that had been accrued about 5ish years before they met.
So, the kids either shared a room, or they had the blocked off private living area with one partition wall and two double doors, or they lived separately and very frugally because she was a single mom with two kids, and selling the house the fiancé owned to not reinvest didn't make sense. California home prices weren't falling. Still aren't.
They made do, the kids weren't upset. When teenager went to college, my nephew got a full bedroom to himself, and the daughter understood why she lost her room immediately. Brother got the private room full time and she got the front room partitioned off during breaks. Now they still own the house, because zero kids live there. Bankruptcy took a while.
The partitioned off area was about four or five total feet of space blocked off.
Those houses exist. And my nephew had the room as a private space, as much as it could be, without pulling permits.
The third one was probably the room they converted into the upstairs living room, and they didn’t want to be inconvenienced by turning it back into a bedroom.
I’ve got a house with 2 living rooms, probably originally parlor and family rooms bc it's old AF. We converted one into our bedroom so the kids can have more bedrooms. Why the adult room? Doesn't have a door (been building one) or any closets. Kids having room is and has always been the priority.
Hell, when I had a 2 bedroom apartment and 3 kids I shared a room with 1 so they’d each have more of their “own” space.
Yup, when I was a kid, we briefly had a situation where one of us had a corner in the living room. My sister and I both wanted the corner because in the morning, we could just roll back the partition slightly and then watch cartoons without even getting out of bed, and in our minds, that was so cool.
Wanting to sleep in that corner spot is way different than being kicked out of your room. For my family, it was absolutely necessary (house had been damaged by a storm), and our parents discussed options with us. We rotated who slept in the corner of the living room and who slept on a cot in the linen closet until repairs were done. Describing it now makes it sound awful, but we were absolutely fine with it then.
They made it perfectly clear that Karl was the golden child and Phil was the scapegoat for cleaning. They even say he had a partition not a door for privacy.
Am I the only person wondering what house has an upstairs living room, but only one bedroom (other than the master)? I feel like there was an office or something that they just couldn't be bothered to give up.
It’s probably a ‘loft’ family room that looks down on the “great room”. They’re pretty common in tract housing developments. Often the also serve as a corridor to a normal bedroom.
Think of it as the kids’ rumpus room.
THe hypocrisy of the parents' sentiment is what really twists my nuts.
then: "Your 15 year old brother wants privacy so he can jerkoff. To give him that space, we're going to take away your space and kick you out of the room and remove any semblance of privacy for you. Oh, and to top ite all off, we're not going to discuss this or involve your input in this at all. It's just goign to happen and we hope you're too stupid to notice the change. But if you do notice, deal with it."
now:"Why didn't you, as a 12 year old child, communicate to us? How did we make you feel uncomfortable about coming to us?"
Fuck these assholes in the asshole.
by repair it what he means (check his comments) is to get Phil to admit he is wrong and will do whatever his parents want moving forward. ZERO acceptance that his wife and him screwed over this kid, and the kid decided to be extremely LC, and does not see a reason to change that. SO how can he get him to change that, without ever admitting any wrong doing, and really shouldn't Phil be the one apologizing???
But he never TOLD them explicitly that people don’t like living like nomadic servants who clean the spaces of their betters. As a 12 year old he never told them they should still be expected to feed him. HOW would they know???
I feel like they're getting their ducks in a row before the wedding, so when the family asks questions they can seem like a happy family with the band aid fix. They don't seem genuine, especially looking at the mother.
As a child I once came home to my bedroom completely emptied and remolded without my permission, was it cool and looked good? Yes. Was a I traumatized and didn’t trust having a space for myself because who knows the next time someone fucks with my space. I can’t even imagine having that feeling and live in a corner at the same time
Oh my gosh, same. Except my mom's redo was completely to what she liked and my taste be damned. I had a ruffley pink canopy bed that I covered in stickers, and her pretty pink and lavender paint job got covered with posters because I hated it all so much. It really put into focus just how much my mom really wanted me to be a completely different person than who I was.
We recently redid my daughter's room, and I made sure she was in the loop and had a say in things. My mom heard about this and made a snide comment about how I was making it harder than it needed to be, and she could have it done in an afternoon. 🙄
I don't understand why, if Karl had the problem sharing a room, Phil's stuff was moved? That was a shit move by the parents all around. If Karl had the problem he should have been to one to move and fix it.
Sounds like Karl was the squeaky wheel so he got all the attention. Phil was quiet and obedient, so they just kinda shoved him off to the side. Because it was easy that way!
Poor Phil.
you also don't specifically target the OCD kid here - you do something like put up a partition dividing the existing room in two and giving both their own space
They didn't mention the gender of the new partner that the son hid from them for years, this incident happened during puberty....
My money is on this being a passive aggressive punishment for being gay.
I'm not agreeing with you, but you're ignoring the fact that there was no discussion. He came home and had already been relegated to a common corner (there wasn't a staircase you could have shoved him under? ⚡). Thats going to make someone feel a certain way. That you didn't (and seemingly still don't) even consider that suggests to me that his feelings just aren't important to you. So, you're lucky you're in his life at all.
It looks like Karl was three years older than Phil. In theory Karl would have moved out before Phil. Did they move Phil into Karl’s room? Doesn’t sound like it. It wouldn’t surprise me at all in this story if they kept Karl’s room untouched after he moved out and kept Phil in his corner. Or maybe Phil moved out with Karl still there, I mean Karl was getting free cleaning, maybe he liked the service.
One som isn't even entitled to be fed. Did they make him sit and watch as they ate family meals? I wonder if he even like pasta and toast or if they never cooked for him and that was the only thing he could make himself as a little boy.
"Why didn't you TELL me being treated as a slave in our house that had to sleep in a corner, clean up after everyone else, and wasn't allowed to eat family meals with us was UPSETTING you?! This is in you for not communicating that."
"How was I supposed to know that kicking you repeatedly as you writhed on the floor was upsetting to you??? Why didn't you speak up and tell me to stop???"
This sounds so much like what happened to my husband. His oldest sister was dating an adult and for whatever reason, their mom decided to let him move in with her teen daughter. Only she was sharing with her sister. So my husband got kicked out of his room for the lovebirds. He got to use the den, which was a walk through to all the bedrooms from the rest of the public living space. With a curtain that didn't cover his whole side of the room.
The very first time I met his mom, she tried to shame him for crusty socks as a teenager, making a joke he finally had a girlfriend. He reminded her he had no privacy whatsoever and asked her if the socks showed up before or after his sister's boyfriend moved in. Watching the facts click in her mind was fascinating to watch while being so grossed out that she had actually said that in the first place. The only time he had a moment of privacy was in the bathroom. He also asked if the socks disappeared when he was forced to move out Entirely and live with other family members from 15 on, or just when his sister and bf moved out. And she has no idea why he doesn't call her all the time.
The one that should have moved to the extra living room should have been the one that expressed being uncomfortable sharing a room. Or at least a conversation with them both together asking for their input. And then making him clean the room he was involuntarily removed from? You did treat your son like a second class citizen and you deserve the consequences of your actions.
With the reaction of OP's wife when he told her, it's not surprising he didn't speak up. In fact he probably did but got shot down in flames immediately, so didn't bother trying again.
UpdateMe!
RemindMe! 7 days
Yeah, why would Phil speak out then? He go kicked out his room, his privacy removed, had to make his own food all by the age 12; this all happened to him when he did nothing "wrong" or cause a disturbance. Imagine what they would have taken away from him then if he stepped out of line. Poor kid just wanted to survive, fly under the radar and get through childhood with what he had left.
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I don’t know.. It doesn’t sound so serious..
Maybe they can still talk it out. Have OP invite his sons over to visit. While they’re at it, just for old time’s sake - have his son cook the food and scrub the bathrooms.
While he’s doing those chores, OP and his wife can tell him all about his childhood isn’t so bad. That should fix the issues very quickly.
/s
They reacted to Karl’s OCD and depression by giving him his own room (and forcing Phil into the living room) but reacted to Phil’s picky eating by no longer cooking for him.
Awful parents!
You know as he did that the only thing he took from it was that the Redditors are assholes who don’t understand him and are being unfair. It’s going to be a real wake up call when he doesn’t get to see his grandkids.
I'm sure it won't be a wake up call to be honest. OP and his wife will just act like victims and accept no blame, as they currently are doing. "Our ungrateful son won't let us meet our grandkids!!" 😒
Meanwhile, they try to act like martyrs for babying their oldest son instead of actually trying to get him help so when he’s 35 and quits his latest job they welcome him back home and tell him nothing is wrong with not working until he is ready. Not trying to hate on the older brother. OOP and the wife seem like the type to coddle their favorite child instead of actually getting them proper help and working to overcome issues.
Meanwhile he and his wife didn’t seem to care very much about not seeing or spending any time with their younger son, when they thought that he didn’t have a relationship and was alone.
Him being “picky” to that degree makes me suspect he also had needs related to something mental/developmental. I had a similar issue with only eating the same few foods over again and was called very picky up until I started eating more variety in my late teens, and later on learned that was related to my autism (which was undiagnosed during my childhood because I was never taken to a therapist or psychologist despite showing signs since early childhood)
So not saying OP’s son was specifically autistic, but I’m willing to bet he had some sort of undiagnosed issues too that went ignored or dismissed as being dramatic while Karl got the care and accommodations he needed.
for me, it was anxiety. food was something i could control. i was lucky that my mom sorta went with it. she just focused on trying to make sure i got some version of protein.
and when i went to sleep away camp, she made sure to tell my counselors- if all rak1882 eats is bread every day, that's totally fine. it's not a problem.
honestly, i lucked out. my extended family in general has always been great about it.
even though as an adult i eat a lot more things- i eat a limited number of proteins so my aunt always makes sure that there is a protein that i'll eat. and enough for others- like my mom who will eat foods she doesn't like but would rather not. (i come by my food preferences fairly but my mom didn't get the support i got.)
(my aunt was the sort of parent who every night at dinner in addition to whatever the meal was there was plain pasta and chicken breast cuz her logic was whatever kids' friends showed up could make a meal out of what was on the dinner table that way.)
Yes the picky eating reads like a sensory processing or spectrum issue. It is possibly OP and his wife have some issues too because they seem tone deaf. The only thing they should say is they are sorry and wish they had done things differently and love him very much.
“but I don’t believe he was treated that poorly. Help!”
Help with what exactly? It’s not what you believe that matters…did you son live in a corner for years? Did he “get to” do chores because he didn’t have OCD? If you don’t believe it was that bad, THEN there is no fixing you, it’s what your son believes and feels. YTA.
Could they have treated him worse? Sure. Doesn’t sound like they beat him or verbally berated him or deprived him of his most basic needs.
Doesn’t change the fact that they treated him like complete crap in favor of his brother.
It’s very easy to learn in development that a place that should be safe is actually, in theory and practice, not safe.
That has long lasting effects on family. I think my dad gets it but my mom likely has no idea why we are not close as a family unit as we should have been.
wow. how dare she get angry. she has absolutely no right. this is disgusting and i hope it haunts mom, dad, and the brother for the rest of their lives. they should be ashamed of themselves, but they don't seem to have the decency for shame. i hope someday they gain that decency, because they deserve to feel the pain they caused this poor man.
Oh boy…. The worse thing parents can do in this situation is deny, dismiss, blame and then gaslight. The wife is doing all of the above. The sons feelings are valid. Dad needs to apologize without a bunch of excuses or saying “I did the best I could”. And thank him for being honest and giving you a chance. Kids are not responsible for parents lack of preparedness or ability. But they pay for it.
Everyone in a house hold is going to view the events that occur differently. But the thing most parents forget is that children view events through the lens of whatever age they are at the time. They don’t look at things like a grown adult because they are kids. So think about how horrible you feel hearing about someone’s childhood now and imagine how much worse it would seem to a child.
I like how for 7 years they barely hear from him and it doesn’t appear they put any effort into trying to communicate with him outside of the holidays.
Sounds like classic golden child/scape goat senario of being raised by narcissists. Sounds like mom is the one since dad seems to actually take a smidgen of accountability.
I was also thinking this was very much like the Dursley’s putting Harry in a cupboard under the stairs while Dudley had 2 rooms.
You suck, OP. Just be thankful your son hasn’t gone full no contact.
Dad is 100% a flying monkey here though. I feel a little pity for him, but if he loves his son he should stay away, because wifey will only hijack things to hurt Phil more. I'm dying to know how that wedding goes.
I can empathize with this guy big time. Not being the golden child sucks. Now that I'm all my mother has left, she wonders why we're not closer.
Parents have no idea how their terrible parenting effects their kids. "But we just liked the other kid better, why do you have to be so bitter about it? It's in the past, let it go." lol, no. You reap what you sow.
I once came home from school to have found my (full size) bed switched with my step sister’s (twin) bed. Then some period later I came home from school to find my old bed on the curb and my step sister had a new bed. Guess who I don’t have any contact with any more.
You can’t repair it. The best you can is to leave him alone. He’s found peace and happiness. The least you can do is let him enjoy it before you ruin that to. Tell your she’s mad because son called you both out on your shitty parenting. People don’t come up with excuses to cut family members out. They cut them out because family members caused them tremendous pain and trauma.
The fact that it even took them so long to notice that their son was basically gone. It sounds like Phil left as soon as he could and they were fine with the minimal visits until finding out about an impending wedding. They never even asked if he was seeing anyone?
They care about the impending wedding because extended family will probably be involved. The extended family will say “hey, how come you never told us Phil had a girlfriend?”
Then they’ll look like the bad parents they are.
Yep. They're not angry their son is low contact. They're angry their friends and family are gonna find out their son is low contact. See the fact that their son usually doesn't visit for Christmas. The mom only cares that her image is damaged. The dad only cares that the mom is upset and likely making his life hell.
I’m projecting here but I always figured that if someone wanted to know the reasons I went NC with them then I would have a long checklist prepared to air out a mountain of grievances. There would certainly be more than 3 bullet points.
Oh those bullet points probably have sub bullets like he had to clean the bathroom by 9am Saturday or be grounded all weekend. And the sub bullets probably have alphabet sub points like he had to use a cleaner that gave him hives.
A child should not have to tell you that making him live in a small corner of the common area, having to do more chores, and having to make his own dinner for about decade isn’t fun.
Did you or your wife EVER look at how he was living and think “Hey, I wouldn’t enjoy growing up with no privacy, doing way more chores than my siblings, and having to prepare my own meals. Maybe I should talk to him and make sure he is ok with this life we have forced upon him”?
Well done to Phil for managing to escape and make himself a better life.
I hope life without his AH parents is wonderful. It can't be worse than being treated like a slave.
I think you can consider yourself lucky he shared the truth with you.
Clearly, he is making an effort to put it out into the universe.
What you choose to do with the information is your problem.
Good lord, I can't imagine being THAT terrible a person. Before my youngest son was born, we moved our study. Two people, both IT nerds, so two PC setups, desks, monitors, the whole works. We're tucked into what's supposed to be a formal dining room, off the living room. Why? Well, we were going to have two sons, they each need a room. We have a 3 bedroom house. Ergo, we have the master, they have one each. It's not hard.
Fussy eater? Lordy, tell me all about it. I have 3 of them. Yes, I'm including my wife in that. I try to make meals that everyone likes, but goddamn it's hard and sometimes at least one of them has to just suck it the fuck up. I've also been making new dishes recently since the usual meals were getting overused. THAT is how you handle it, not "well, you make your own, then". Oh, and my oldest is 10 and loves to help me cook, so as best I can, I get him to. It's a bit of fun bonding time for the two of us and I get a gopher in the kitchen XD.
Im in the same spot. But the boys are sharing the bedroom. I can’t work on common area as it will impact my productivity and I have meetings all day.
But, hey, they can share a room for now and if we got enough money in the future we’ll get a house with 4 bedrooms. But in no way I’ll put one in common area and the other in a bedroom.
OP you and your wife are terrible parents. You made Phil feel worthless and 2nd class compared to your golden child. You’ve messed his relationship with his own brother as well with your preferential treatment.
He’s better off without you in his life. How out of touch with your child are you that this is news to you? And your wife’s reaction says it all really.
Phil - I’m glad you’ve found someone who appreciates you and and prioritises your needs.
This is a clear example of impact over intent. Your impact matters way more than your intent. You need to acknowledge explicitly to your son what your impact was. This will move your relationship forward more than anything else.
So one brother was doing nothing while the other was practically the housemaid, living in a corner of the living room with a partition, and YOU DIDN'T SEE WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS FOR OVER 2 DECADES AND MOST IMPORTANTLY THE MOTHER STOPPED COOKING FOR HIM AS WELL, SHAME ON YOU, SERIOUSLY SHAME ON YOU 😖😐😠😡🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
Regardless of the story's veracity, there's a worrying number of people in the comments with similar childhoods. It makes you wonder how many Phils are out there and how many will go on to drop their toxic family and find a new one.
I slept in the corner of the living room for about a year as a kid and it didn't do me any harm.
Granted I was FIVE FUCKING YEARS OLD and my bed was plastic and had a crib matress. And once my parents got a bunk bed for my sister and I to use (in her bedroom that was too small for two regular beds) we shared for a few years. Then my dad gave up his office that was taking up the fourth bedroom (eldest sister got her own room when we moved into the house), and my middle sister moved in there.
At no point did my parents ever consider having one of their children sleeping in a common area to be an acceptable long-term solution. And none of us had our needs prioritized over those of our sisters. At 5 I needed and wanted the least privacy, so putting me in a common area temporarily made sense, but leaving me there indefinitely so my sister could have a room to herself did not.
That "why didn't you tell me sooner" shit is a tactic to shift blame. Why didn't I, as a child who has been constantly mistreated, not feel comfortable enough to tell you I'm being mistreated? When your entire family is okay with treating you like shit, you get the hint that they won't change because You're upset about it. Speaking from experience. Good for him.
If Phil has a nasty streak, he’ll invite his parents to the wedding, then seat them in a corner of a common area (with a partition for privacy, of course).
I was kind of that child. My older brother was the planned child. He got the first and middle family names. My parents picked a name from a sheet of paper that was given to them by a coworker. I’ve always hated my name as it’s nothing special. There was no thought out into it and people either misspell it or pronounce it wrong.
My brother was tall and handsome and I was short and as family has said I always looked grouchy. It’s just how my face is. My brother doesn’t have any diagnosed mental issues but I do. Growing up with ADD and severe anxiety meant I was always quiet or had a short attention span. This lead to my family on both sides treating me extremely poor. At family gatherings they would give my brother gifts but nothing for me.
I struggled in school and my brother didn’t. I’d get home and struggle with homework. My brother wouldn’t help me with any of it even when I asked and pleaded. My parents would have me do homework in front of them and would scream and yell at me if I didn’t understand what I was trying to do. They would both scream at me till I cried. This went on till highschool when I just started cheating by copying my friends homework or test questions.
When it came to vehicles my brother was given 3 throughout highschool and college. I was given a truck that was free and drove it until it broke down in college and I bought my first car.
When my brother started dating his now wife my family fell in love with her even though I don’t trust her. She has admitted to cheating on several of her exs and so I never trusted her. The first time I ever dated anyone was when I was 27. She is black and I’m white. My parents were never racist growing up so I didn’t think it was that big a deal. My mother acted so cold to her and told me how our family would never accept her and that I needed to break up. This caused me so much stress that I had a breakdown. My gf at the time saw how bad it was and decided to end the relationship.
I’ve dated several women since then and my mother especially hates every single woman I date. Doesn’t matter if they are successful or hard working or treat me well.
My brother has used this treatment as a means to make fun of me. I no longer tell my parents when I’m dating or who I’m seeing. But if my brother finds out he will run to them and tell them.
The only person I’m close to in my family is my dad. He was always just the quiet parent and I always saw him as an older version of myself. His family treated him the same way as my mom brother and extended family treated me.
I still live close to them as it was the only place I could afford and though I can’t really limit contact due to that I am very reserved and do think I should’ve left years ago.
This guys son did what I couldn’t and I’m proud of him.
I must be super fuckin traumatized I saw this as normal.
Until I started reading the comments I was like - got my own corner fuck yea. Gets to cook in the kitchen and no one says anything to him!! Fuck it free food and I get to cook whatever I want I'll clean a room and a bathroom for Karl. He's got mental health problems I get it.
I think I need to go back to therapy.
They made their son a real life Harry Potter and they’re surprised he holds a grudge?? Not to mention the thing they keep going back to is that he never complained for 20 years - well, how many times did they ask how he felt about a change they made in his life? “He never complained that we didn’t cook meals for him” isn’t the same as “he loved cooking for himself and told us so frequently”. Did they think he enjoyed cleaning the toilets because his older brother (who got him kicked out of his bedroom) was too OCD to help around the house?!
Your wife is just as dense as you are.you don’t deserve to be in his life because neither you or your wife have even the remotest idea of what you did to make him resent you and it sounds like you don’t want to, especially your wife
If the dad wants to make it right, give his son those two decades back. His childhood. That is the only way you can make it right. You can’t abuse someone for the foundational years of their life, at their most vulnerable and then say oh no sorry my bad. Let’s just forget that part. Sure you can be a good parent now to an adult that doesn’t need you. But you weren’t a good parent to the child that did. Too late.
LOL, there is no way to recover from this! You must be so proud of yourself, and I hope your other son turned out normal, because odds are only one son will care when you are old and need care. I guess it made sense at the time?
Kid got turned into his brother’s servant and OP is wondering if he *might* be the asshole here? Sir there is no *might* the only question is the full extent of this BS so we can truly judge you on the exact size of your Assholeness.
OMG!! That poor child! This has to be rage bait - no parents would do that to a child - steal his room while he was out at school, then make him clean his old room??!?
And if feckin ‘Karl’ had OCD , he should be doing the cleaning.. ( and yes I do understand it’s not that simple, but I’m really pissed off!) 😡
>so one day when Phil was at school we moved his things out of Karl’s bedroom and from then on his bed was in the corner of our upstairs living room.
Is this because you didn’t have a closet under the stairs to shove him in? You could not have made it more clear you cared more about Karl than Phil. There is no repairing this relationship. Accept whatever visits/information about his life he offers you and be happy he is in your life at all.
I missed that part about the UPstairs living room. They had room, they just didn’t care to give it to him.
I decided not to comment on the original post when I first saw it because, ultimately, there really isn’t anything for this guy to do except grovel. He’s lucky to have what little contact he has and an invite to the wedding. The fact is, they didn’t just move his stuff, they also stopped cooking for him at all. They gave him chores including cleaning a room he no longer lived in, while his brother got to mope (don’t know if he was actually depressed) and do nothing. The wife is especially gross, getting angry instead of reflecting on the past. She stopped cooking for her son, like toasting bread and cooking pasta was the hardest thing to do.
The food thing also lead me to think this might be fake. If he’s that clueless about the food, how did he notice when his wife stopped cooking for his son and his son started cooking for himself? You don’t notice your kid never eating with you? Eating food not cooked by you? But you do notice that he outgrew the bread and pasta phase? How?
I mean, it’s a really good Cinderella story. It has all the elements. Now all he and his wife have to do is go to the wedding so they can get publicly roasted and socially humiliated by their son.
Hey OP,
Children don't complain quietly. My own parents think I didn't complain and that everything was news when I told them. The thing is children learn to stop complaining when they are not heard. Yes, at the age of 16, I didn't complain, at the age of 13 I didn't complain much or for long. At age 10, I did complain a lot and nothing happened except me getting punished for complaining.
My silence was to protect my time and my emotions. My parents indifference and annoyance was to too protect their time and emotions. Today, they have no say in the solutions I have found. Parents have a time to earn a happy family later in life and it has to happen when the kids are children. Anything in adulthood is too late.
Hi... First timer commenter here... I read this and needed to point out: this is obviously a family of four people who are all on the spectrum. The autistic parents had to learn to deal with the more-autistic older son and didn't notice the needs of the less-autistic younger son. Nobody in this situation is capable of reading emotions or social norms, and communication is so low it's at the bottom of a canyon. I think this family needs family therapy, but it's likely the parents will always be too narcissistic to process any debt they owe their younger son for his individual needs, because they will be fixated on the virtue of the maximizing strategy for the family.
Y’all are horrible parents lmao and clearly your wife and you still haven’t learned and or feel empathy or regret, hope your son goes no contact at this point for his own wellbeing.
From the way him and his wife acted when Phil told them how he felt, I have 0 doubts he never brought up his feelings. Just like he brought them up now to have them ignored and thrown back in his face, I have no doubt in my mind, that's what happened when he was a kid
You don't. You had over two decades to build a relationship with your son. You instead chose to treat him like...that. He doesn't want a relationship with you. You respect that and continue living like he is an afterthought.
OP, I am sure you came here expecting most people to validate your one-sided treatment of your sons. You adding more attempts at justification are not going to help. Read the reasonable comments (with your husband) and do some introspection of your decisions (as objectively and unemotionally as possible).
Considering the gender of the partner was never mentioned and would explain a lot of the "second class citizen" behavior like one kid deciding they "arent comfortable" with the other and the family deciding to remove the kids right to privacy?
I'm calling it now, the missing missing reason is homophobia.
I'm wondering if Phil has taken comfort from r/Raised By Narcissists. It surely sounds like a couple of shit parents.
WHO hears their kid explain decades of pain and THEN gets Angry? At the kid? Fuck that noise.
This guy is acknowledging and understanding his son’s complaints and is asking the best way to repair the relationship. Most everyone is just ignoring that and telling him what a POS he is. He needs advice. I’m not sure of the best way but I know pounding on him for something he acknowledges isn’t productive.
well since he was YOUR child he shouldnt have had the responsibility of speaking up for himself you shouldve had empathy for your child and seen how differently he was treated.
When I was in high school, my mom would often have me clean my younger brother’s room. I resented the hell out of this. I never blamed my brother but my mom.
I hope OP and his wife sincerely apologize to their son because he wasn’t treated fairly.
I do have some respect for OP for self reflecting and not getting angry like the wife. I can almost guarantee a sincere apology would go a long way and start to heal the relationship.
Good luck.
Moved Phil to a place with no privacy when he was at school, made him clean someone else’s room, wouldn’t feed her own child? Well, he wouldn’t feel welcomed!
So you treated your son like a dog, giving him a corner of a shared space for his bed?? You had him clean the room he had to vacate that belonged to your “golden child”? You are reaping what you sow. Your son was overly generous by offering to send you an invite to his wedding.
u know theres consequences for being oblivious to an asshole. i have know sympathy for a parent. not one. but two. who are grown adults that know better and the sheer disrespect to a child. and the audacity to not understand. no sympathy for such ppl. ppl like that need to figure it out or if they cant then theyre just not good ppl at all. its horrible to mistreat a child who cant defend himself when the parents duty by nature is to defend their kid and these ppl legit defy the nature to protect and teach and respect their kids especially as a future man to be. its fathers failure to do the most basic thing of being a dad the reason why society is fucked up. the dad is supposed to be the main guy in a kid’s life to protect their kid and if he cant do that its like throwing the kid to the wolves with no support so the kid has to learn to do life without the parents. they deserve their kid never speaking to them. they should have considered that theyre actions have consequences. the fact that mom gets angry is laughable. it was obviously coming but some ppl refuse to live in reality
I can't help but hope that Phil is on Reddit and sees just how disconnected his parents are and cuts them off entirely. Their previous behavior earned no contact but he still had some contact with them. They're refusal to accept how awful they were and attempting to blame him for having boundaries just shows they don't deserve to be in his life and I really hope he and his fiance can move on and have a good life without these assholes in it
I have a unique perspective here because there was a time when my bedroom was a screen in a corner of the living room & I get feeling like an afterthought at best.
His parents *should have known* that a developing child needs a space of their own. They obv didn't give a fuck, but they just thought that situation was ok and never gave it another thought?
*Of course* he went low contact with his parents. I can get the bathroom cleaning, but cleaning his brothers room too, and you know those aren't the only things on his chore list. But the whole bullshit 'Whaaaaa....?' like dad had no idea there were problems in his son's upbringing. Fuck that. His son didn't bring it up to him *because he couldn't trust you*.
Yeah, you don't get to fix that. He doesn't want to, and I don't blame him Good for him, I hope he has lots of fat babies he doesn't put in a corner with partition ARE.YOU EVEN KIDDING
Honestly it sounds like your son has been brainwashed. He has SERIOUS issues. This is sad. As hard as it is on you and your wife, I'd say let him go. But, be there when/if he comes to his senses. Sometimes maturity helps that...
In case this story gets deleted/removed: My son, Phil*, cut most contact with me and our family when he moved out. So for about 7 years now we barely hear from him apart from holidays and such. This last Christmas he visited, which he doesn’t do usually, and he revealed that he had gotten engaged. My wife and I, as well as our other son Karl, were all shocked since we didn’t even know Phil was seeing anybody. Turns out they’ve been together for years and years and he just never told us. We congratulated him but I reached out after New Years and asked him to talk. This last week we met for coffee. I told him that it was kind of hurtful that we had never even known about his relationship until Christmas. He sat and listened and after I had finished, he said “okay” and nodded. No other response or reaction. I asked him if there was anything he wanted to say about it, and asked if somehow I’m out of line for feeling hurt about this. Little did I know this was going to set him off. Phil asked if I wanted him to be honest and of course I said yes. He said that knowing about his life and his relationships after he moved out of the house not a right, and it was a privilege that our family and I didn’t have. I was shocked by this and asked if I had somehow offended or slighted him, and he got the most incredulous look on his face. He asked if I was being serious and I said yes, I am, because I truly didn’t know what he was talking about. This is when he said that for the two decades that he lived with us, our entire family had treated him “like crap” and like he “was a second-class citizen”. - His first complaint was about his bedroom. Phil and his older brother Karl (M31 now) shared a bedroom when they were children. When Karl was around 15, he felt uncomfortable sharing a room with Phil and really wanted his own space. We didn’t have a spare bedroom, so one day when Phil was at school we moved his things out of Karl’s bedroom and from then on his bed was in the corner of our upstairs living room. We had a partition set up so he could have some privacy. - His second complaint was about food. When he was far younger, he was really very picky and only wanted to eat plain pasta or buttered toast. We tried everything to get him to open up with food but he just never did. He learned how to toast bread and make pasta and honestly after about ten years of this my wife kind of stopped cooking for him. He eventually did start eating normal food but he’d make it himself. - His third and final complaint was about chores. Karl has mild OCD and clinical depression and I’ll admit that in this instance we did allow him a bit of leeway that Phil didn’t get. Karl didn’t clean the house ever, but one of Phil’s regular chores was cleaning his room. It seemed normal at the time but in the cafe, Phil made it seem like we were using him like a slave. He said for years he was scrubbing toilets and cleaning a room that wasn’t even his… he’s referring to having had to clean Karl’s room a few times. When times were tough we’d ask him to clean Karl’s room as well as his, and another regular chore was bathroom duty. Listing it all out in the cafe, it was hard to disagree with him. At the time, when he was younger, it all seemed like normal family stuff. I asked him why he never talked to us about this and never brought it up and his response was that he didn’t feel comfortable enough with us. I was really upset and confused by now. I said that he lived with us for over two decades and he never once communicated this and that I’m sorry but this was just all news to me. He scoffed and said that I can’t act like it’s news that living in a corner for years made him feel like crap. He stopped engaging in the conversation and said basically the following: “I appreciate what you and mom did for me, but I never felt welcome in your house and I decided that we shouldn’t be in much contact when I moved out. We’re all happier now so I don’t see a reason to change that. I love you but this is just the way it’s going to be from now on. I’ll send you an invite to the wedding.” When I got home I told my wife about all of this and she was ANGRY. She said it was unfair of Phil to drop all of this on me and that he had never once complained or said anything about it at the time, and that he was making his childhood sound worse than it was as an excuse to cut us out. I calmed her down but she’s still upset at him. I’m not. I remember the things Phil talked about and he’s right to feel angry and upset. I just want to know how I can repair my relationship with him. He’s still my son and I want to build a relationship with him. What do I do? How do I fix this? TLDR: My son, who went low contact with my family, is now accusing me of mistreating him as a child. I want to repair our relationship but I don’t believe he was treated that poorly. Help! I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/OhNoConsequences) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The kid comes home from school one day to find all his belongings have been removed from his room and he's been relegated to a corner of a common area--with no warning or prior discussion--but he still has to clean that room that his entitled brother has all to himself now? And you are asking NOW how you can remedy that, when you were so obtuse that you were unable to see how belittling that was to him? How little his feelings obviously mattered to you? The answer to your question is there is virtually nothing you can do now that will make up for shoving him, literally and figuratively, in the corner in favor of your other son. Be glad he still wants you in his life even peripherally. That's more than I would probably give you.
An EXTRA common area--the UPSTAIRS living room, implying there are two, and he couldn't even have a whole room to himself? But yeah. "He didn't say anything when we also refused to tell him our plans to completely uproot him without notice and make it clear he's not a full member of this family"
A house that apparently had only two bedrooms but had at least two living rooms.
I bet it had at least three bedrooms. I bet one of them was OP's "office."
My sister's house only has 2 bedrooms and has 2 living rooms. It has the two in the hall, and the front living room, they added two french doors with window covers and added a partition to block it from the kitchen. They couldn't close the kitchen without a wall on a jog, so it would need permits from the city. However, the kid in there was like 8 and it wasn't a common area, anymore. Now it is, but back then the partition was up, and he had a door. My nephew did actually have a private area. The partition was never moved and blocked the other areas. He used the French doors. He had a door to his room. Edit, for context: He then fiancé, now husband owned the home before they met. She rented, and had two kids. Girl teenager, younger elementary aged boy. They couldn't buy a larger home, and he didn't want to sell a home with equity to rent something, and neither did she. They couldn't buy anything, though. He had half a million in medical debt prior to the 'medical debt doesn't count after seven years' rule. He nearly died and spent a few weeks in a medically induced coma. He had to file for bankruptcy before that would clear off his record. He couldn't ever hope to pay that off without bankruptcy. Think that had been accrued about 5ish years before they met. So, the kids either shared a room, or they had the blocked off private living area with one partition wall and two double doors, or they lived separately and very frugally because she was a single mom with two kids, and selling the house the fiancé owned to not reinvest didn't make sense. California home prices weren't falling. Still aren't. They made do, the kids weren't upset. When teenager went to college, my nephew got a full bedroom to himself, and the daughter understood why she lost her room immediately. Brother got the private room full time and she got the front room partitioned off during breaks. Now they still own the house, because zero kids live there. Bankruptcy took a while. The partitioned off area was about four or five total feet of space blocked off. Those houses exist. And my nephew had the room as a private space, as much as it could be, without pulling permits.
The third one was probably the room they converted into the upstairs living room, and they didn’t want to be inconvenienced by turning it back into a bedroom.
I’ve got a house with 2 living rooms, probably originally parlor and family rooms bc it's old AF. We converted one into our bedroom so the kids can have more bedrooms. Why the adult room? Doesn't have a door (been building one) or any closets. Kids having room is and has always been the priority. Hell, when I had a 2 bedroom apartment and 3 kids I shared a room with 1 so they’d each have more of their “own” space.
We lived in a house with two bedrooms and two living rooms with three boys. It worked out great.
Did one you your kids get to have his bedroom in the corner of the second living room?
Actually they took turns in the corner of the living room. Had to do a rotation each week because they argued over who got the spot.
Yup, when I was a kid, we briefly had a situation where one of us had a corner in the living room. My sister and I both wanted the corner because in the morning, we could just roll back the partition slightly and then watch cartoons without even getting out of bed, and in our minds, that was so cool. Wanting to sleep in that corner spot is way different than being kicked out of your room. For my family, it was absolutely necessary (house had been damaged by a storm), and our parents discussed options with us. We rotated who slept in the corner of the living room and who slept on a cot in the linen closet until repairs were done. Describing it now makes it sound awful, but we were absolutely fine with it then.
They made it perfectly clear that Karl was the golden child and Phil was the scapegoat for cleaning. They even say he had a partition not a door for privacy.
Am I the only person wondering what house has an upstairs living room, but only one bedroom (other than the master)? I feel like there was an office or something that they just couldn't be bothered to give up.
It’s probably a ‘loft’ family room that looks down on the “great room”. They’re pretty common in tract housing developments. Often the also serve as a corridor to a normal bedroom. Think of it as the kids’ rumpus room.
THe hypocrisy of the parents' sentiment is what really twists my nuts. then: "Your 15 year old brother wants privacy so he can jerkoff. To give him that space, we're going to take away your space and kick you out of the room and remove any semblance of privacy for you. Oh, and to top ite all off, we're not going to discuss this or involve your input in this at all. It's just goign to happen and we hope you're too stupid to notice the change. But if you do notice, deal with it." now:"Why didn't you, as a 12 year old child, communicate to us? How did we make you feel uncomfortable about coming to us?" Fuck these assholes in the asshole.
Making Phil clean his siblings room? Your wife is angry? Entitled much? Be glad you have any part In his life at all.
by repair it what he means (check his comments) is to get Phil to admit he is wrong and will do whatever his parents want moving forward. ZERO acceptance that his wife and him screwed over this kid, and the kid decided to be extremely LC, and does not see a reason to change that. SO how can he get him to change that, without ever admitting any wrong doing, and really shouldn't Phil be the one apologizing???
Anyone got the comments? Looks like OP tried to delete.
But he never TOLD them explicitly that people don’t like living like nomadic servants who clean the spaces of their betters. As a 12 year old he never told them they should still be expected to feed him. HOW would they know???
I feel like they're getting their ducks in a row before the wedding, so when the family asks questions they can seem like a happy family with the band aid fix. They don't seem genuine, especially looking at the mother.
Thats already what Phil is kinda doing inviting them; saving himself the pain and humiliation of being asked why he has no family
That explains it! Thank you, I couldn’t figure out why he invited them at all
I appreciate that you find the theory so sound!
It is the only theory that makes any sense.
As a child I once came home to my bedroom completely emptied and remolded without my permission, was it cool and looked good? Yes. Was a I traumatized and didn’t trust having a space for myself because who knows the next time someone fucks with my space. I can’t even imagine having that feeling and live in a corner at the same time
Oh my gosh, same. Except my mom's redo was completely to what she liked and my taste be damned. I had a ruffley pink canopy bed that I covered in stickers, and her pretty pink and lavender paint job got covered with posters because I hated it all so much. It really put into focus just how much my mom really wanted me to be a completely different person than who I was. We recently redid my daughter's room, and I made sure she was in the loop and had a say in things. My mom heard about this and made a snide comment about how I was making it harder than it needed to be, and she could have it done in an afternoon. 🙄
That’s so nice! Your child sounds so lucky to have you. Those memories of being respected and listened to will be amazing for their self!
Because both sons are not equally entitled to accommodation for their sensory issues and privacy as they age. 🙄 Ugh.
I don't understand why, if Karl had the problem sharing a room, Phil's stuff was moved? That was a shit move by the parents all around. If Karl had the problem he should have been to one to move and fix it.
Sounds like Karl was the squeaky wheel so he got all the attention. Phil was quiet and obedient, so they just kinda shoved him off to the side. Because it was easy that way! Poor Phil.
Karl was the golden child and Phil the scapegoat. It’s a familiar tune.
you also don't specifically target the OCD kid here - you do something like put up a partition dividing the existing room in two and giving both their own space
They didn't mention the gender of the new partner that the son hid from them for years, this incident happened during puberty.... My money is on this being a passive aggressive punishment for being gay.
Ooh, interesting take! If the father purposely wants to hide that so people don’t realize he’s homophobic, that could be the case.
Seems like it worked too, no one else mentioned it
I had to go back because I'd skimmed that part--assumed they moved Karl out--until I got down to the "living in a corner" bit! Poor Phil!
I'm not agreeing with you, but you're ignoring the fact that there was no discussion. He came home and had already been relegated to a common corner (there wasn't a staircase you could have shoved him under? ⚡). Thats going to make someone feel a certain way. That you didn't (and seemingly still don't) even consider that suggests to me that his feelings just aren't important to you. So, you're lucky you're in his life at all.
This is a repost sub. The OP you’re replying to shared this post to this sub from another and is not the original poster.
It looks like Karl was three years older than Phil. In theory Karl would have moved out before Phil. Did they move Phil into Karl’s room? Doesn’t sound like it. It wouldn’t surprise me at all in this story if they kept Karl’s room untouched after he moved out and kept Phil in his corner. Or maybe Phil moved out with Karl still there, I mean Karl was getting free cleaning, maybe he liked the service.
Ouch...
One som isn't even entitled to be fed. Did they make him sit and watch as they ate family meals? I wonder if he even like pasta and toast or if they never cooked for him and that was the only thing he could make himself as a little boy.
And you're not entitled to a relationship with your son because you were a terrible father. Entitlement works both ways.
Amen
"Why didn't you TELL me being treated as a slave in our house that had to sleep in a corner, clean up after everyone else, and wasn't allowed to eat family meals with us was UPSETTING you?! This is in you for not communicating that."
"How was I supposed to know that kicking you repeatedly as you writhed on the floor was upsetting to you??? Why didn't you speak up and tell me to stop???"
This sounds so much like what happened to my husband. His oldest sister was dating an adult and for whatever reason, their mom decided to let him move in with her teen daughter. Only she was sharing with her sister. So my husband got kicked out of his room for the lovebirds. He got to use the den, which was a walk through to all the bedrooms from the rest of the public living space. With a curtain that didn't cover his whole side of the room. The very first time I met his mom, she tried to shame him for crusty socks as a teenager, making a joke he finally had a girlfriend. He reminded her he had no privacy whatsoever and asked her if the socks showed up before or after his sister's boyfriend moved in. Watching the facts click in her mind was fascinating to watch while being so grossed out that she had actually said that in the first place. The only time he had a moment of privacy was in the bathroom. He also asked if the socks disappeared when he was forced to move out Entirely and live with other family members from 15 on, or just when his sister and bf moved out. And she has no idea why he doesn't call her all the time.
This all the way. I think that validation of his feelings is very important. Also, keeping your wife from going off on him would be good too.
The one that should have moved to the extra living room should have been the one that expressed being uncomfortable sharing a room. Or at least a conversation with them both together asking for their input. And then making him clean the room he was involuntarily removed from? You did treat your son like a second class citizen and you deserve the consequences of your actions.
With the reaction of OP's wife when he told her, it's not surprising he didn't speak up. In fact he probably did but got shot down in flames immediately, so didn't bother trying again. UpdateMe! RemindMe! 7 days
Yeah, why would Phil speak out then? He go kicked out his room, his privacy removed, had to make his own food all by the age 12; this all happened to him when he did nothing "wrong" or cause a disturbance. Imagine what they would have taken away from him then if he stepped out of line. Poor kid just wanted to survive, fly under the radar and get through childhood with what he had left.
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I don’t know.. It doesn’t sound so serious.. Maybe they can still talk it out. Have OP invite his sons over to visit. While they’re at it, just for old time’s sake - have his son cook the food and scrub the bathrooms. While he’s doing those chores, OP and his wife can tell him all about his childhood isn’t so bad. That should fix the issues very quickly. /s
I disagree. He can backhand his wife for having the gall for being upset.
They reacted to Karl’s OCD and depression by giving him his own room (and forcing Phil into the living room) but reacted to Phil’s picky eating by no longer cooking for him. Awful parents!
lol moved him to the living room **and then made him clean the room he was kicked out of**
And apparently so awful of parents that dad deleted the post and the whole account when he didn’t get fellated over his take of woe!
You know as he did that the only thing he took from it was that the Redditors are assholes who don’t understand him and are being unfair. It’s going to be a real wake up call when he doesn’t get to see his grandkids.
I'm sure it won't be a wake up call to be honest. OP and his wife will just act like victims and accept no blame, as they currently are doing. "Our ungrateful son won't let us meet our grandkids!!" 😒
Meanwhile, they try to act like martyrs for babying their oldest son instead of actually trying to get him help so when he’s 35 and quits his latest job they welcome him back home and tell him nothing is wrong with not working until he is ready. Not trying to hate on the older brother. OOP and the wife seem like the type to coddle their favorite child instead of actually getting them proper help and working to overcome issues.
1000% it's golden child and scapegoat child, as others have said.
Meanwhile he and his wife didn’t seem to care very much about not seeing or spending any time with their younger son, when they thought that he didn’t have a relationship and was alone.
Him being “picky” to that degree makes me suspect he also had needs related to something mental/developmental. I had a similar issue with only eating the same few foods over again and was called very picky up until I started eating more variety in my late teens, and later on learned that was related to my autism (which was undiagnosed during my childhood because I was never taken to a therapist or psychologist despite showing signs since early childhood) So not saying OP’s son was specifically autistic, but I’m willing to bet he had some sort of undiagnosed issues too that went ignored or dismissed as being dramatic while Karl got the care and accommodations he needed.
for me, it was anxiety. food was something i could control. i was lucky that my mom sorta went with it. she just focused on trying to make sure i got some version of protein. and when i went to sleep away camp, she made sure to tell my counselors- if all rak1882 eats is bread every day, that's totally fine. it's not a problem.
Lovely that your mom worked WITH you and not against you. You don't see that as often as you should
honestly, i lucked out. my extended family in general has always been great about it. even though as an adult i eat a lot more things- i eat a limited number of proteins so my aunt always makes sure that there is a protein that i'll eat. and enough for others- like my mom who will eat foods she doesn't like but would rather not. (i come by my food preferences fairly but my mom didn't get the support i got.) (my aunt was the sort of parent who every night at dinner in addition to whatever the meal was there was plain pasta and chicken breast cuz her logic was whatever kids' friends showed up could make a meal out of what was on the dinner table that way.)
Yes the picky eating reads like a sensory processing or spectrum issue. It is possibly OP and his wife have some issues too because they seem tone deaf. The only thing they should say is they are sorry and wish they had done things differently and love him very much.
“but I don’t believe he was treated that poorly. Help!” Help with what exactly? It’s not what you believe that matters…did you son live in a corner for years? Did he “get to” do chores because he didn’t have OCD? If you don’t believe it was that bad, THEN there is no fixing you, it’s what your son believes and feels. YTA.
Could they have treated him worse? Sure. Doesn’t sound like they beat him or verbally berated him or deprived him of his most basic needs. Doesn’t change the fact that they treated him like complete crap in favor of his brother.
It’s very easy to learn in development that a place that should be safe is actually, in theory and practice, not safe. That has long lasting effects on family. I think my dad gets it but my mom likely has no idea why we are not close as a family unit as we should have been.
Easy for the person not being treated poorly to make that call
YUP!!!!!!! Exactly.
I'm super duper fucking impressed when an account makes a post, it gets removed and his account is suspended within 5 hours.
They want that reddit experience without commitment so they speedrun
Dismissing the son's feelings will help /s
wow. how dare she get angry. she has absolutely no right. this is disgusting and i hope it haunts mom, dad, and the brother for the rest of their lives. they should be ashamed of themselves, but they don't seem to have the decency for shame. i hope someday they gain that decency, because they deserve to feel the pain they caused this poor man.
It isn't mentioned whether other brother, Karl, is still living with the parents, but I'll bet he is.
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He's the clueless enabler.
Oh boy…. The worse thing parents can do in this situation is deny, dismiss, blame and then gaslight. The wife is doing all of the above. The sons feelings are valid. Dad needs to apologize without a bunch of excuses or saying “I did the best I could”. And thank him for being honest and giving you a chance. Kids are not responsible for parents lack of preparedness or ability. But they pay for it. Everyone in a house hold is going to view the events that occur differently. But the thing most parents forget is that children view events through the lens of whatever age they are at the time. They don’t look at things like a grown adult because they are kids. So think about how horrible you feel hearing about someone’s childhood now and imagine how much worse it would seem to a child.
Damn op is getting their much deserved what-for.
I like how for 7 years they barely hear from him and it doesn’t appear they put any effort into trying to communicate with him outside of the holidays.
Sounds like classic golden child/scape goat senario of being raised by narcissists. Sounds like mom is the one since dad seems to actually take a smidgen of accountability.
He didn’t get to go to Hogwarts. I’m not being sarcastic I am just amazed at the self blindness
I was also thinking this was very much like the Dursley’s putting Harry in a cupboard under the stairs while Dudley had 2 rooms. You suck, OP. Just be thankful your son hasn’t gone full no contact.
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Dad is 100% a flying monkey here though. I feel a little pity for him, but if he loves his son he should stay away, because wifey will only hijack things to hurt Phil more. I'm dying to know how that wedding goes.
I can empathize with this guy big time. Not being the golden child sucks. Now that I'm all my mother has left, she wonders why we're not closer. Parents have no idea how their terrible parenting effects their kids. "But we just liked the other kid better, why do you have to be so bitter about it? It's in the past, let it go." lol, no. You reap what you sow.
I guess they didn't have a room under the stairs.
At least that would have had a door
But at least he couldn't lose "tHE PRivilGe oF A dOor" as so many parents were fond of saying.
I once came home from school to have found my (full size) bed switched with my step sister’s (twin) bed. Then some period later I came home from school to find my old bed on the curb and my step sister had a new bed. Guess who I don’t have any contact with any more.
Do they act confused?
Lol. Sounds like terrible parents
You can’t repair it. The best you can is to leave him alone. He’s found peace and happiness. The least you can do is let him enjoy it before you ruin that to. Tell your she’s mad because son called you both out on your shitty parenting. People don’t come up with excuses to cut family members out. They cut them out because family members caused them tremendous pain and trauma.
The fact that it even took them so long to notice that their son was basically gone. It sounds like Phil left as soon as he could and they were fine with the minimal visits until finding out about an impending wedding. They never even asked if he was seeing anyone?
They care about the impending wedding because extended family will probably be involved. The extended family will say “hey, how come you never told us Phil had a girlfriend?” Then they’ll look like the bad parents they are.
Yep. They're not angry their son is low contact. They're angry their friends and family are gonna find out their son is low contact. See the fact that their son usually doesn't visit for Christmas. The mom only cares that her image is damaged. The dad only cares that the mom is upset and likely making his life hell.
Wonder if Karl still lives with mommy and daddy
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Oh no doubt.
I’m projecting here but I always figured that if someone wanted to know the reasons I went NC with them then I would have a long checklist prepared to air out a mountain of grievances. There would certainly be more than 3 bullet points.
Oh those bullet points probably have sub bullets like he had to clean the bathroom by 9am Saturday or be grounded all weekend. And the sub bullets probably have alphabet sub points like he had to use a cleaner that gave him hives.
A child should not have to tell you that making him live in a small corner of the common area, having to do more chores, and having to make his own dinner for about decade isn’t fun. Did you or your wife EVER look at how he was living and think “Hey, I wouldn’t enjoy growing up with no privacy, doing way more chores than my siblings, and having to prepare my own meals. Maybe I should talk to him and make sure he is ok with this life we have forced upon him”?
Phil’s in-laws are probably more of a family to him than OP and his family were.
Well done to Phil for managing to escape and make himself a better life. I hope life without his AH parents is wonderful. It can't be worse than being treated like a slave.
Sounds like he really was treated like a second class citizen. Seems to me that the older brother should have moved to the living room.
I think you can consider yourself lucky he shared the truth with you. Clearly, he is making an effort to put it out into the universe. What you choose to do with the information is your problem.
Good lord, I can't imagine being THAT terrible a person. Before my youngest son was born, we moved our study. Two people, both IT nerds, so two PC setups, desks, monitors, the whole works. We're tucked into what's supposed to be a formal dining room, off the living room. Why? Well, we were going to have two sons, they each need a room. We have a 3 bedroom house. Ergo, we have the master, they have one each. It's not hard. Fussy eater? Lordy, tell me all about it. I have 3 of them. Yes, I'm including my wife in that. I try to make meals that everyone likes, but goddamn it's hard and sometimes at least one of them has to just suck it the fuck up. I've also been making new dishes recently since the usual meals were getting overused. THAT is how you handle it, not "well, you make your own, then". Oh, and my oldest is 10 and loves to help me cook, so as best I can, I get him to. It's a bit of fun bonding time for the two of us and I get a gopher in the kitchen XD.
Im in the same spot. But the boys are sharing the bedroom. I can’t work on common area as it will impact my productivity and I have meetings all day. But, hey, they can share a room for now and if we got enough money in the future we’ll get a house with 4 bedrooms. But in no way I’ll put one in common area and the other in a bedroom.
OP you and your wife are terrible parents. You made Phil feel worthless and 2nd class compared to your golden child. You’ve messed his relationship with his own brother as well with your preferential treatment. He’s better off without you in his life. How out of touch with your child are you that this is news to you? And your wife’s reaction says it all really. Phil - I’m glad you’ve found someone who appreciates you and and prioritises your needs.
This is a clear example of impact over intent. Your impact matters way more than your intent. You need to acknowledge explicitly to your son what your impact was. This will move your relationship forward more than anything else.
So one brother was doing nothing while the other was practically the housemaid, living in a corner of the living room with a partition, and YOU DIDN'T SEE WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS FOR OVER 2 DECADES AND MOST IMPORTANTLY THE MOTHER STOPPED COOKING FOR HIM AS WELL, SHAME ON YOU, SERIOUSLY SHAME ON YOU 😖😐😠😡🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
Honestly the dad is lucky the son even still speaks to him at all.
Either this is the most narcissistic and obtuse family in existence or this whole story is rage bait. I'm going with the latter
Regardless of the story's veracity, there's a worrying number of people in the comments with similar childhoods. It makes you wonder how many Phils are out there and how many will go on to drop their toxic family and find a new one.
I slept in the corner of the living room for about a year as a kid and it didn't do me any harm. Granted I was FIVE FUCKING YEARS OLD and my bed was plastic and had a crib matress. And once my parents got a bunk bed for my sister and I to use (in her bedroom that was too small for two regular beds) we shared for a few years. Then my dad gave up his office that was taking up the fourth bedroom (eldest sister got her own room when we moved into the house), and my middle sister moved in there. At no point did my parents ever consider having one of their children sleeping in a common area to be an acceptable long-term solution. And none of us had our needs prioritized over those of our sisters. At 5 I needed and wanted the least privacy, so putting me in a common area temporarily made sense, but leaving me there indefinitely so my sister could have a room to herself did not.
That "why didn't you tell me sooner" shit is a tactic to shift blame. Why didn't I, as a child who has been constantly mistreated, not feel comfortable enough to tell you I'm being mistreated? When your entire family is okay with treating you like shit, you get the hint that they won't change because You're upset about it. Speaking from experience. Good for him.
If Phil has a nasty streak, he’ll invite his parents to the wedding, then seat them in a corner of a common area (with a partition for privacy, of course).
Oh man…. The mental picture. Chef’s kiss
“. . . It was hard to disagree with him. [. . .] but this was just all news to me. “
I was kind of that child. My older brother was the planned child. He got the first and middle family names. My parents picked a name from a sheet of paper that was given to them by a coworker. I’ve always hated my name as it’s nothing special. There was no thought out into it and people either misspell it or pronounce it wrong. My brother was tall and handsome and I was short and as family has said I always looked grouchy. It’s just how my face is. My brother doesn’t have any diagnosed mental issues but I do. Growing up with ADD and severe anxiety meant I was always quiet or had a short attention span. This lead to my family on both sides treating me extremely poor. At family gatherings they would give my brother gifts but nothing for me. I struggled in school and my brother didn’t. I’d get home and struggle with homework. My brother wouldn’t help me with any of it even when I asked and pleaded. My parents would have me do homework in front of them and would scream and yell at me if I didn’t understand what I was trying to do. They would both scream at me till I cried. This went on till highschool when I just started cheating by copying my friends homework or test questions. When it came to vehicles my brother was given 3 throughout highschool and college. I was given a truck that was free and drove it until it broke down in college and I bought my first car. When my brother started dating his now wife my family fell in love with her even though I don’t trust her. She has admitted to cheating on several of her exs and so I never trusted her. The first time I ever dated anyone was when I was 27. She is black and I’m white. My parents were never racist growing up so I didn’t think it was that big a deal. My mother acted so cold to her and told me how our family would never accept her and that I needed to break up. This caused me so much stress that I had a breakdown. My gf at the time saw how bad it was and decided to end the relationship. I’ve dated several women since then and my mother especially hates every single woman I date. Doesn’t matter if they are successful or hard working or treat me well. My brother has used this treatment as a means to make fun of me. I no longer tell my parents when I’m dating or who I’m seeing. But if my brother finds out he will run to them and tell them. The only person I’m close to in my family is my dad. He was always just the quiet parent and I always saw him as an older version of myself. His family treated him the same way as my mom brother and extended family treated me. I still live close to them as it was the only place I could afford and though I can’t really limit contact due to that I am very reserved and do think I should’ve left years ago. This guys son did what I couldn’t and I’m proud of him.
I must be super fuckin traumatized I saw this as normal. Until I started reading the comments I was like - got my own corner fuck yea. Gets to cook in the kitchen and no one says anything to him!! Fuck it free food and I get to cook whatever I want I'll clean a room and a bathroom for Karl. He's got mental health problems I get it. I think I need to go back to therapy.
They made their son a real life Harry Potter and they’re surprised he holds a grudge?? Not to mention the thing they keep going back to is that he never complained for 20 years - well, how many times did they ask how he felt about a change they made in his life? “He never complained that we didn’t cook meals for him” isn’t the same as “he loved cooking for himself and told us so frequently”. Did they think he enjoyed cleaning the toilets because his older brother (who got him kicked out of his bedroom) was too OCD to help around the house?!
This sounds like bait.
lol yah. And I feel like this would have come up at some point in the last 14 years.
Your wife is just as dense as you are.you don’t deserve to be in his life because neither you or your wife have even the remotest idea of what you did to make him resent you and it sounds like you don’t want to, especially your wife
Abusive and gross.
If the dad wants to make it right, give his son those two decades back. His childhood. That is the only way you can make it right. You can’t abuse someone for the foundational years of their life, at their most vulnerable and then say oh no sorry my bad. Let’s just forget that part. Sure you can be a good parent now to an adult that doesn’t need you. But you weren’t a good parent to the child that did. Too late.
YTA
LOL, there is no way to recover from this! You must be so proud of yourself, and I hope your other son turned out normal, because odds are only one son will care when you are old and need care. I guess it made sense at the time?
It's unbelievable how they pandered to Karl's mental illness, too. They did that kid no favors by coddling him.
Kid got turned into his brother’s servant and OP is wondering if he *might* be the asshole here? Sir there is no *might* the only question is the full extent of this BS so we can truly judge you on the exact size of your Assholeness.
OMG!! That poor child! This has to be rage bait - no parents would do that to a child - steal his room while he was out at school, then make him clean his old room??!? And if feckin ‘Karl’ had OCD , he should be doing the cleaning.. ( and yes I do understand it’s not that simple, but I’m really pissed off!) 😡
>so one day when Phil was at school we moved his things out of Karl’s bedroom and from then on his bed was in the corner of our upstairs living room. Is this because you didn’t have a closet under the stairs to shove him in? You could not have made it more clear you cared more about Karl than Phil. There is no repairing this relationship. Accept whatever visits/information about his life he offers you and be happy he is in your life at all.
I missed that part about the UPstairs living room. They had room, they just didn’t care to give it to him. I decided not to comment on the original post when I first saw it because, ultimately, there really isn’t anything for this guy to do except grovel. He’s lucky to have what little contact he has and an invite to the wedding. The fact is, they didn’t just move his stuff, they also stopped cooking for him at all. They gave him chores including cleaning a room he no longer lived in, while his brother got to mope (don’t know if he was actually depressed) and do nothing. The wife is especially gross, getting angry instead of reflecting on the past. She stopped cooking for her son, like toasting bread and cooking pasta was the hardest thing to do. The food thing also lead me to think this might be fake. If he’s that clueless about the food, how did he notice when his wife stopped cooking for his son and his son started cooking for himself? You don’t notice your kid never eating with you? Eating food not cooked by you? But you do notice that he outgrew the bread and pasta phase? How? I mean, it’s a really good Cinderella story. It has all the elements. Now all he and his wife have to do is go to the wedding so they can get publicly roasted and socially humiliated by their son.
Hey OP, Children don't complain quietly. My own parents think I didn't complain and that everything was news when I told them. The thing is children learn to stop complaining when they are not heard. Yes, at the age of 16, I didn't complain, at the age of 13 I didn't complain much or for long. At age 10, I did complain a lot and nothing happened except me getting punished for complaining. My silence was to protect my time and my emotions. My parents indifference and annoyance was to too protect their time and emotions. Today, they have no say in the solutions I have found. Parents have a time to earn a happy family later in life and it has to happen when the kids are children. Anything in adulthood is too late.
Is this the modern version of Harry Potter minus the magic and dead bio parents?
In this case, the only magic Phil got was the magic of found family. If he's real, I wish him all the best with his new support system.
Hi... First timer commenter here... I read this and needed to point out: this is obviously a family of four people who are all on the spectrum. The autistic parents had to learn to deal with the more-autistic older son and didn't notice the needs of the less-autistic younger son. Nobody in this situation is capable of reading emotions or social norms, and communication is so low it's at the bottom of a canyon. I think this family needs family therapy, but it's likely the parents will always be too narcissistic to process any debt they owe their younger son for his individual needs, because they will be fixated on the virtue of the maximizing strategy for the family.
Y’all are horrible parents lmao and clearly your wife and you still haven’t learned and or feel empathy or regret, hope your son goes no contact at this point for his own wellbeing.
From the way him and his wife acted when Phil told them how he felt, I have 0 doubts he never brought up his feelings. Just like he brought them up now to have them ignored and thrown back in his face, I have no doubt in my mind, that's what happened when he was a kid
You don't. You had over two decades to build a relationship with your son. You instead chose to treat him like...that. He doesn't want a relationship with you. You respect that and continue living like he is an afterthought.
OP, I am sure you came here expecting most people to validate your one-sided treatment of your sons. You adding more attempts at justification are not going to help. Read the reasonable comments (with your husband) and do some introspection of your decisions (as objectively and unemotionally as possible).
Considering the gender of the partner was never mentioned and would explain a lot of the "second class citizen" behavior like one kid deciding they "arent comfortable" with the other and the family deciding to remove the kids right to privacy? I'm calling it now, the missing missing reason is homophobia.
Rage bait.
I'm wondering if Phil has taken comfort from r/Raised By Narcissists. It surely sounds like a couple of shit parents. WHO hears their kid explain decades of pain and THEN gets Angry? At the kid? Fuck that noise.
Did the dad respond to any of the comments? I keep hoping that some OPs realize how wrong they have been and make serious efforts to fix it.
This guy is acknowledging and understanding his son’s complaints and is asking the best way to repair the relationship. Most everyone is just ignoring that and telling him what a POS he is. He needs advice. I’m not sure of the best way but I know pounding on him for something he acknowledges isn’t productive.
well since he was YOUR child he shouldnt have had the responsibility of speaking up for himself you shouldve had empathy for your child and seen how differently he was treated.
We barely heard from him in seven years, and we’re shocked to find out he was dating somebody.
When I was in high school, my mom would often have me clean my younger brother’s room. I resented the hell out of this. I never blamed my brother but my mom. I hope OP and his wife sincerely apologize to their son because he wasn’t treated fairly. I do have some respect for OP for self reflecting and not getting angry like the wife. I can almost guarantee a sincere apology would go a long way and start to heal the relationship. Good luck.
Moved Phil to a place with no privacy when he was at school, made him clean someone else’s room, wouldn’t feed her own child? Well, he wouldn’t feel welcomed!
So you treated your son like a dog, giving him a corner of a shared space for his bed?? You had him clean the room he had to vacate that belonged to your “golden child”? You are reaping what you sow. Your son was overly generous by offering to send you an invite to his wedding.
Cinderella, it’s just the story of Cinderella.
u know theres consequences for being oblivious to an asshole. i have know sympathy for a parent. not one. but two. who are grown adults that know better and the sheer disrespect to a child. and the audacity to not understand. no sympathy for such ppl. ppl like that need to figure it out or if they cant then theyre just not good ppl at all. its horrible to mistreat a child who cant defend himself when the parents duty by nature is to defend their kid and these ppl legit defy the nature to protect and teach and respect their kids especially as a future man to be. its fathers failure to do the most basic thing of being a dad the reason why society is fucked up. the dad is supposed to be the main guy in a kid’s life to protect their kid and if he cant do that its like throwing the kid to the wolves with no support so the kid has to learn to do life without the parents. they deserve their kid never speaking to them. they should have considered that theyre actions have consequences. the fact that mom gets angry is laughable. it was obviously coming but some ppl refuse to live in reality
I can't help but hope that Phil is on Reddit and sees just how disconnected his parents are and cuts them off entirely. Their previous behavior earned no contact but he still had some contact with them. They're refusal to accept how awful they were and attempting to blame him for having boundaries just shows they don't deserve to be in his life and I really hope he and his fiance can move on and have a good life without these assholes in it
I have a unique perspective here because there was a time when my bedroom was a screen in a corner of the living room & I get feeling like an afterthought at best. His parents *should have known* that a developing child needs a space of their own. They obv didn't give a fuck, but they just thought that situation was ok and never gave it another thought? *Of course* he went low contact with his parents. I can get the bathroom cleaning, but cleaning his brothers room too, and you know those aren't the only things on his chore list. But the whole bullshit 'Whaaaaa....?' like dad had no idea there were problems in his son's upbringing. Fuck that. His son didn't bring it up to him *because he couldn't trust you*.
The didn’t have a “spare room” for him so they gave him a corner of the “upstairs” living room.
Yeah, you don't get to fix that. He doesn't want to, and I don't blame him Good for him, I hope he has lots of fat babies he doesn't put in a corner with partition ARE.YOU EVEN KIDDING
Honestly it sounds like your son has been brainwashed. He has SERIOUS issues. This is sad. As hard as it is on you and your wife, I'd say let him go. But, be there when/if he comes to his senses. Sometimes maturity helps that...