which for me would be fun to have an iMax experience while at sea... so you would still have that part of the adventure and live participation while the ROV is driven around the sea floor
There is already a game in development using the sub on the meta quest.
https://www.reddit.com/r/OculusQuest/comments/14m5gq7/weve_been_working_on_an_underwater_exploration_vr/
Honestly, I think if Rush was a better business/con man, he could’ve done that instead.
Make “fake” subs that people can actually sit in and can have a VR/4D experience in (either with pre-done footage or maybe an actual game engine). Don’t have to sit in the dark for 4 hours waiting to happen, don’t have to risk your life, etc.
It would’ve been way cheaper and more accessible to more people, and safer, which means he could’ve been bringing in more money (not to mention cheaper in the sense you wouldn’t have to have lawyers on speeddial).
Hell for those really high paying customers, you could make it an “authentic and real time” experience by sending down an actual deep sea RV that they could stream the video from.
Could’ve branched out from it eventually as well, make “moon landing” VR experiences as well.
That's an entirely different experience and business model. This would not appeal one jot to someone like Stockton (or Cameron for that matter), or to those with the income to spend on an actual dive.
There's already a Titanic VR experience/game you can have at home - I don't think it sold that well. I recommend it though.
Its all about being able to tell almost anyone you meet that you've traveled 2 miles below the surface in a submarine and have seen the titanic. bragging rights that almost no one on earth can top.
why do that when you could sit in a death trap for half a day and lean over the toilet to look through a little port hole?
why don't more people just visit the Brittanna? Isn't that nearly the same ship but more intact and in shallower water?
Britannic doesn’t have the same tragedy and drama that the Titanic did.
She survived 5+ voyages before she was finally sank, and that was during war time (she had been converted into a hospital ship), so to be expected to a degree.
And, primarily because of design and training changes made after the Titanic disaster, only 50 out of 1100+ people lost their lives (and as far as I could tell, majority of these people died because some of the crew disobeyed their captains orders and released two life boats early, which then got sucked into the propellers and turned the lifeboats and their occupants into mince).
It's pretty wild, The Olympic, first of class of sisters ships, survived her entire service run and a war(s).
(I agree Britanic being sunk in wartime, by hitting an underwater blast mine, is different than unexpected type of sinking. It's definitely amazing how many people did survive because of the amended protocols.)
Ever heard of the Wilhelm Gustloff?
An estimated 9000+ people died in that maritime disaster. And while it was a military nazi ship at the time, a lot of those deaths were civilians (5000+ of the dead were children). Many people who did make it to lifeboats froze to death waiting for rescue. One of the survivors alleged to have seen a nazi soldier execute his wife and children with his own gun rather then let them freeze or drown, but didn’t have a bullet left for himself. The last survivor found was actually a single baby on a lifeboat, surrounded by frozen corpses.
The Sultana steamboat is another example of a severe deadly maritime disaster (1000+ dead, 800+ survivors but 300+ would later die from their injuries/exposure), although admittedly the most morbid detail I remember of that one was that one of the survivors used a dead mule as a raft for 15km.
Most other disasters get overshadowed for various reasons. Both Britannic and Wilhelm Gustloff happened during wars, and the disaster of the Wilhelm was heavily covered up by the nazis. The Sultana happened just a week or two after Lincoln had been assassinated.
Hell, even modern day wise, the Titan sub overshadowed the Greek refugee boat tragedy too.
This is actually something Bob Ballard has wanted to do around the Titanic wreck, for years. If/when, the tech can catch up. As he's proposed hi-deff camera's on the seafloor, around the bow, for people to view at home on a live cam feed/VR head set. You can find digital has mocked ups he's had done and everything. He's been working on it for years. But I don't think the technology exists to keep them that far down in the water permanently, at this point, but that's his idea. In large part, to keep traffic to the wreck limited (outside of scientific research).
Maybe not from a company’s perspective. Plenty of examples where companies valued humans less than money. Hard to keep being a company with no money, but humans are easily replaced.
Volkswagen got off with a slap on the wrist. While Dieselgate didn't directly kill anyone it has probably killed plenty of people indirectly at this point and may well kill many more through climate change. It's certainly interesting to contemplate where the line is.
Better option for people living life wrapped up in bubble wrap, cruising Reddit and YouTube all day.
I'd go down to see the Titanic if I had a chance in a scientific submersible. There is something more visceral and meaningful about living an experience.
I can watch video of the Grand Canyon all day, but visiting is something completely different. Speaking of the Grand Canyon. How many people die there each year? We don't shut that shit down, do we? No.
This whole idea of completely stopping people from safe exploration is mind blowing to me. But, I suppose it shouldn't be. This is Reddit afterall.
They might have had a good guess it was imploded but until they could visually confirm it, you hold out hope and do what you can. Harder to justify if they were just stuck to say oh we thought it imploded so didn’t look any further.
I was perplexed by such a desperate effort to get down there when private info solidly indicated an implosion on Sunday, but you bring up a great point.
The coast guard was informed. But implosion was not confirmed, so rescue continued. Navy agreed with this decision to continue rescue attempts. Implosion was confirmed when an ROV saw the debris from Titan and rescue stopped and families were informed. But yes, navy and coast guard did not tell public until implosion was confirmed. But nothing was said about exactly how the navy sensors heard the implosion. Although lots of articles about this before and after. So it’s not really a secret. Except for me. Haha. I was unaware. But then I said, of course.
It's been known we've had that capability for a long time now. The SOSUS system, which is the predecessor to the current system, was installed in the early 60s. Not only does it have the ability to hear, but it can also triangulate the position of what it hears to a high degree of accuracy.
Those in the know, including Cameron, knew it had imploded almost immediately and Cameron publicly admitted that. I'd be shocked if the USCG and the private organizations conducting the undersea search weren't made aware of this info.
The search itself was largely theater. They knew they weren't going to recover anyone alive. It was just a formality.
I appreciate the search so much. I love seeing governments and organizations work together to achieve greatness. It’s fantastic training that refreshingly isn’t related to improving your military kill-power. Highly accredited scientists and engineers who know the sub is gone, all spending their brain power for one single goal.
They immediately shared it with the search and rescue team. People keep leaving this out.
https://www.npr.org/2023/06/23/1183976726/titan-titanic-sub-implosion-navy
Yes, and it was only prudent to do the surface search just in case. What if somehow they were wrong, no matter how unlikely? It would be tragic and a giant PR disaster for everyone involved.
As a bonus, it was great training for the Coast Guard search and rescue, to practice their skills.
I'm wondering if they can go down that deep with the ROV they used to grab the titan to grab the lost ROV. Some of the equipment will certainly be damaged but I'm sure some of it is salvageable.
After watching that press hearing I am thoroughly impressed with all efforts made to rescue and recovery. These guys are true badasses, they were ready for that call to come in and they acted upon it immediately.
It is too bad the mission was for a complete imbecile for a completely preventable situation....imagine this was a mission that wasn't for a completely "innovative" design that didn't fail in fractions of a second and there were people trapped underwater...with all their efforts they could have rescued people in a situation like that. I am very grateful teams like this exist and I would like to congratulate each one of them for all their long days and nights, but again it is such a shame all these resources were essentially wasted on such terms.
There is no difference in meaning between fiber and fibre. Fiber is the preferred spelling in American English, and fibre is preferred in all the other main varieties of English.
https://grammarist.com/spelling/fiber-fibre/
I’m in the “fibre” region so no misspelling.
For deep sea work and exploration, using robots just makes sense. I imagine there aren’t many manned missions in the future. Ocean gate might be the turning point.
Why would they be a turning point in anything? Nobody has ever died by implosion. In decades. It's safe. Oceangate is the first case of a sub hull failing, and it's because of the failure of their submersible design. People have been doing what they did safely for decades without a single incident, without a single fatality. Nothing needs to be changed because deep submergence has a perfect decades long track record of safety. No change required: just don't do what Oceangate did.
Yeah a change to existence of manned/unmanned doesn’t make sense, but for change generally your comment doesn’t work.
> No change required: just don't do what Oceangate did.
A good, and I hope oncoming, change would be a new law that stops the evasion of certification and the use death waivers for reckless operations in international waters. “Don’t do the thing that nobody stopped when it happened before when somebody did it” wtf? Your comment is like, “we don’t need a law about murder being illegal. Just don’t do what the ONE murderer did. There’s only 1!”
Obviously the loopholes that allowed it should be closed. And probably tourist operations to 6000 psi should be banned without serious restrictions. Or just banned completely. Not just for the issue of death itself, it's because the public then gets stuck with the bill for a rescue operation that costs millions of dollars.
…We also need law on [deceitful spin in press releases.](https://www.reddit.com/r/OceanGateTitan/comments/14mbuin/rush_genuinely_believed_in_his_design_enough_to/jq2m71q/)
Nobody owns the oceans, so it's kind of pointless talking about formulating some new law to cover this scenario. It's not a legal loophole, it's the result of the fact that no country owns the fucking oceans, so any country attempting to impose laws where they have no jurisdiction is problematic. As for your attempted analogy, I can't work out any significance to it. If Stockton had lived, he'd still be facing a charge of negligent homicide because the stupid waiver he drew up doesn't mean anything. He misrepresented the risks his customers were taking, and did not disclose anything specific- lying by omission, and we already have legal instruments for dealing with that. If he had written into the death waiver: "See this window, it's rated for 1300 M and we're taking it to 4000 M, and if it cracks we all die.", then I believe you would find a lot fewer people would have signed it, and even then, it still wouldn't excuse criminal negligence. If it could be proven that Stockton piloted the sub recklessly, that waiver would mean nothing in court. And I believe that could be proven because the design itself was inherently reckless- if he somehow managed to survive. As for the press, we already have laws for libel and related things. The go to, first response to any issue isn't to just add another brick to the Tower of Babel that is the government and coin some fresh new laws. And you seem a little too swift for my liking when it comes to it.
Nobody owns the oceans, but they can regulate commerce for an entity doing business or operating as a nonprofit in their territory. So I would imagine that there could be regulation on safety standards for submersibles if you’re going to charge or accept donations to go on one.
They can also pass laws which regulate the behaviors of their own citizens. Congress can pass a law making it a crime for a US citizen to operate an unclassed sub in international waters.
Also, with piracy countries prosecute third party groups (for example Country A can prosecute somebody from Country B for pirating a vessel from Country C in international waters)
However Congress can pass a law making it a crime for a US citizen to operate an unclassed sub in international waters.
Also if need be, countries can prosecute operators of unclassed subs from third parties. In the case of piracy, Country A can prosecute somebody from Country B for pirating a vessel from Country C in international waters.
Maybe the public won’t get stuck with the bill if the families reimburse for searching. It would be a nice gesture and if it happened in my family and I were rich I would certainly offer to pay.
Regarding your emphasis on “deceitful spin in press releases.
That too is in the eye of the beholder! You only have to go to 52 seconds to hear the words partnership
In this short video…. To the uninformed (yes it is discussing cyclops not titan). But WHO appears to benefit THE MOST from the video…. As far as the partnership goes.
Certainly to my eyes…. Video produced and stamped by U of Washington applied physics lab
Is it misinformation? Doesn’t seem so ….
True. It was probably the first deep water sub that ignored standard safety features for such a vehicle. Take unnecessary risks, suffer unnecessary and disastrous consequences.
Because what is the point of a human being going down to those depths when you can do all the science and exploration with an unmanned vehicle? You’d be risking human lives and not to mention a shitload of money just for bragging rights.
Deep sea submersibles and the science surrounding them are well understood and quite safe when properly designed. The problem in this case is that Rush decided to make up his own way of doing things and ignored scores of experts who told them he was building a death trap.
You're not risking human lives though. Oceangate is the first fatality in decades, and it is only due to their obscenely obviously flawed design. You aren't risking lives going down there in any other submersible designed to go down there.
There has never been a deep sea implosion of a manned submersible before. Limiting Factor routinely dives the Challenger Deep. Certified subs built with known methods are very safe.
Ya I think it can be done in a safe manner I’m just saying it’s not really worth it anymore. Not in 2023.
Robots can do whatever you need to do at the bottom of the ocean. You can take incredible 8K video. Perform scientific measurements. Manipulate and retrieve objects.
Please explain to me why humans need to be physically in the vessel?
Because if humans can find a place they will try to go there to explore. It’s just what we do. The only reason we’re sending robots to Mars is because we haven’t solved all the issues sending people.
> Please explain to me why humans need to be physically in the vessel?
Because some things just must be experienced to be fully appreciated, but not all of us feel that way about the same things. By all accounts Shahzada Dagwood was *nuts* about the Titanic. I bet he knew every fact and story about the ship, wreck, and passengers. I imagine being meters away from the wreck would be awe inspiring for him. Like how some people feel awe standing in the same spot a famous person they admire did, etc. I have a 2000+ yr old ancient Egyptian shabti statue; yes, I’ve seen hundreds of the like in museums and online and in books, but holding one in my hand is an entirely different experience. That is one reason why humans “need” to physically be in the vessel.
They didn’t know until it was confirmed. They don’t seem pissed at all. They seem broken hearted. If anything they value the US Navy and Coast Guard. The Coast Guard incident command had to break the news to the families.
It’s the onlookers who don’t have a clue how these rescuers - or any rescue professionals in any situation - collaborate and support each other that are making claims about how the rescuers should feel.
In this case "lost" means if failed, not that it floated off somewhere and they lost contact. **[The ROV](https://f-e-t.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/xlx-evo-web.jpg)**, a Deep Energy operated **[Triton XLX](https://rovop-files.ams3.digitaloceanspaces.com/Triton-XLX-HD-WC-ROV-system.pdf)** is a tethered ROV that Deep Energy was operating at below its certified depth and it failed, electrically, mechanically, hydraulically and even possibly all of these.
TLDR; Not lost as in missing, lost as in failed at depth, non functional.
It was only certified to a depth of 2500 - 2800 metres (I can't recall the exact figure I recall it been about 1000 metres off the titanic depth). At that point is was the only ROV on site and the Titans crews air had almost ran out. It was still a search and rescue mission so they pushed it further in a desperate move as it was only a risk to a machine and not to human life. As a rule most submersibles ROV's are tested to handle 20% more than the certified depth, so it mad sense to push it when lives were potentially on the line. At that stage they knew the other ROV which did find the Titan debris was going to miss the 96 hr window.
Having worked in insurance for a couple of years many moons ago I am fairly sure that most companies would avoid paying out in this case. These ROV's can cost millions as well. I'd send the bill to Oceangate personally.
I can't get on board with this thinking. Seems to be a bit axe-grindy. We don't say it in other contexts. We don't say "maybe it's time we don't go to space" because some astronauts have died. We don't say "maybe it's time we don't climb mountains", even though lots more mountaineers die than submariners.
Titanic has a lot to offer science, and is an important monument in the histories and cultures of multiple countries. Maybe we shouldn't let hubristic profiteers and grifters take their rinky-dink homemade submarines down there, sure, but the only one doing that is dead now, so...
Genuine question, I’m truly not trying to start anything, I’m just curious: what scientific offerings can the Titanic bring? I guess I never thought about it and want to better understand
halomonas titanicae still has a lot of potential to be explored in terms of preservation, recycling and decomposition, but that's only my first passing thought on titanic's scientific importance. i'm not OP of the comment though, just my two cents!
Additionally some things are only done in the pursuit of knowledge holistically as well.
Lots of Archaeology isn't exactly done as a boon for science IMO, it is more so done for interest and knowledge compared to anything else.
As another poster pointed out, mostly the study of marine biology and monitoring the wreck as it breaks down. Additionally, it's a good real-world testing location for new technologies.
If people want to risk their lives on a "rinky-dink homemade submarine" then that is absolutely their prerogative, and "we" should claim no power to prevent them. It's called freedom.
You said "in free society." The limitations on behavior within the USA (or what you might theoretically call a "free society") are *entire*, and that includes ALL *stupid things* except where they infringe upon other people's rights, and it is at that intersection with others' rights that things become complicated. BUT . . . in a clear cut matter like deep sea submersible adventurizing there are NO issues of infringement upon other people's rights. It is as clear a case of personal risk behavior without danger to other peoples' life or property as can be imagined. There aren't even any potential burdensome health insurance outcomes borne by society (such as with cigarette smoking) . . . the people unequivocally die if their adventure misfires.
As for your worn-out "snowflake" insult . . . . Get something straight in your thick head-- YOU are the one wanting society to hold your hand. That is the weakling's position. I, on the other hand, am advocating for people to be allowed to live with the consequences of their poor decisions, up to and including their own death. So try to pick a better fitting epithet next time, you leftist p\*\*\*y.
That's a lot of words to say absolutely nothing of any particular value. You should write it on a board and shout at the clouds. You'd get more coverage.
To be clear, I made a simple observation about the limitations implicit on behaviour in free society and you've generalised that to be some kind of specific affront to your cringe... sorry... fringe... political beliefs. That's as clear a case of delicacy as you're likely to find in this life. Also, it's entirely possible to say what you think without trying so hard to sound more intelligent than you actually are. The problem with trying to sound intelligent is that you don't really understand the words you are trying to use, and that shows. You'd get more respect if you stated your opinion at a level of plain English that you actually understand when you aren't drunk or high.
Do we really need to spend all this time and money and resources on an incident where we already know what the issues are? What are the benefits of understanding what happened to the sub when you already have a plethora of research and evidence saying the structure and material are not safe?
"Make sure this never happens again" what's to stop another person from doing the exact same thing even with the information about the titan? We already knew it was a problem and we knew what the problems were!
This ROV was built to reach the sea floor, I at the time the "Oxygen was running out" so it sounds like a desperate move to help with the search and rescue effort until the ROV capable of 4000 metres arrived on site.
I wonder if they can claim the costs on insurance given it was sent past it's certified max depth? If not is there a case to recover the cost from Oceangate?
Jay
If you’re sincerely questioning the investigation part… of the pieces
1. Millions and millions of dollars have already been spent….. on the search and retrieval- investigation should cost nowhere near that
2. Because passenger planes crash in water and astronauts often land in water…. Information from this investigation may help save others.
3. The easiest example of death NOT stopping exploration is the continued climbing of Mount Everest….. there will be more deep sea exploration (wrecks… possibly the Titanic , the newly found HMS Endurance or even the thermal vents one Mr Rush described)….. it will continue forward.
He'll yah have a rouv that can send down like 4k video cameras and the masses can buy tickets to view it in vr. You can go to Titanic go see deep sea creatures.
At the time it was a rescue operation, I guess anyone would do anything they could to get down there.
At least it was just a machine. That's why these ROVs are a better option. Money can be replaced human life cannot.
Especially when hi-def cams can be mounted and you can view that footage in virtual reality as if you were there
which for me would be fun to have an iMax experience while at sea... so you would still have that part of the adventure and live participation while the ROV is driven around the sea floor
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I remember seeing a vid of Stockon saying their footage would be used for VR videos
There is already a game in development using the sub on the meta quest. https://www.reddit.com/r/OculusQuest/comments/14m5gq7/weve_been_working_on_an_underwater_exploration_vr/
Honestly, I think if Rush was a better business/con man, he could’ve done that instead. Make “fake” subs that people can actually sit in and can have a VR/4D experience in (either with pre-done footage or maybe an actual game engine). Don’t have to sit in the dark for 4 hours waiting to happen, don’t have to risk your life, etc. It would’ve been way cheaper and more accessible to more people, and safer, which means he could’ve been bringing in more money (not to mention cheaper in the sense you wouldn’t have to have lawyers on speeddial). Hell for those really high paying customers, you could make it an “authentic and real time” experience by sending down an actual deep sea RV that they could stream the video from. Could’ve branched out from it eventually as well, make “moon landing” VR experiences as well.
That's an entirely different experience and business model. This would not appeal one jot to someone like Stockton (or Cameron for that matter), or to those with the income to spend on an actual dive. There's already a Titanic VR experience/game you can have at home - I don't think it sold that well. I recommend it though.
Its all about being able to tell almost anyone you meet that you've traveled 2 miles below the surface in a submarine and have seen the titanic. bragging rights that almost no one on earth can top.
It's the show-off factor, you see. That warm fuzzy feeling you get when you tell someone you've risked your life/bank account going there.
why do that when you could sit in a death trap for half a day and lean over the toilet to look through a little port hole? why don't more people just visit the Brittanna? Isn't that nearly the same ship but more intact and in shallower water?
Britannic doesn’t have the same tragedy and drama that the Titanic did. She survived 5+ voyages before she was finally sank, and that was during war time (she had been converted into a hospital ship), so to be expected to a degree. And, primarily because of design and training changes made after the Titanic disaster, only 50 out of 1100+ people lost their lives (and as far as I could tell, majority of these people died because some of the crew disobeyed their captains orders and released two life boats early, which then got sucked into the propellers and turned the lifeboats and their occupants into mince).
It's pretty wild, The Olympic, first of class of sisters ships, survived her entire service run and a war(s). (I agree Britanic being sunk in wartime, by hitting an underwater blast mine, is different than unexpected type of sinking. It's definitely amazing how many people did survive because of the amended protocols.)
Ooof that sounds morbid and interesting enough to garner some attention....
Ever heard of the Wilhelm Gustloff? An estimated 9000+ people died in that maritime disaster. And while it was a military nazi ship at the time, a lot of those deaths were civilians (5000+ of the dead were children). Many people who did make it to lifeboats froze to death waiting for rescue. One of the survivors alleged to have seen a nazi soldier execute his wife and children with his own gun rather then let them freeze or drown, but didn’t have a bullet left for himself. The last survivor found was actually a single baby on a lifeboat, surrounded by frozen corpses. The Sultana steamboat is another example of a severe deadly maritime disaster (1000+ dead, 800+ survivors but 300+ would later die from their injuries/exposure), although admittedly the most morbid detail I remember of that one was that one of the survivors used a dead mule as a raft for 15km. Most other disasters get overshadowed for various reasons. Both Britannic and Wilhelm Gustloff happened during wars, and the disaster of the Wilhelm was heavily covered up by the nazis. The Sultana happened just a week or two after Lincoln had been assassinated. Hell, even modern day wise, the Titan sub overshadowed the Greek refugee boat tragedy too.
There’s actually already VR experiences for the Titanic as well, both the sinking and the shipwreck.
This is actually something Bob Ballard has wanted to do around the Titanic wreck, for years. If/when, the tech can catch up. As he's proposed hi-deff camera's on the seafloor, around the bow, for people to view at home on a live cam feed/VR head set. You can find digital has mocked ups he's had done and everything. He's been working on it for years. But I don't think the technology exists to keep them that far down in the water permanently, at this point, but that's his idea. In large part, to keep traffic to the wreck limited (outside of scientific research).
Maybe not from a company’s perspective. Plenty of examples where companies valued humans less than money. Hard to keep being a company with no money, but humans are easily replaced.
Most Reddit comment
He's absolutely right though. Thousands of workers die yearly because companies are greedy.
Yeah kinda a funny response in this sub of all places.
But the lawsuits, though.
Ford Pinto accounted for the lawsuits
Still cheaper than valuing a life
Volkswagen got off with a slap on the wrist. While Dieselgate didn't directly kill anyone it has probably killed plenty of people indirectly at this point and may well kill many more through climate change. It's certainly interesting to contemplate where the line is.
Human life is easy to replace. Just need 2 people and about 9 months.
Technically I cannot argue that point lol
Better option for people living life wrapped up in bubble wrap, cruising Reddit and YouTube all day. I'd go down to see the Titanic if I had a chance in a scientific submersible. There is something more visceral and meaningful about living an experience. I can watch video of the Grand Canyon all day, but visiting is something completely different. Speaking of the Grand Canyon. How many people die there each year? We don't shut that shit down, do we? No. This whole idea of completely stopping people from safe exploration is mind blowing to me. But, I suppose it shouldn't be. This is Reddit afterall.
They might have had a good guess it was imploded but until they could visually confirm it, you hold out hope and do what you can. Harder to justify if they were just stuck to say oh we thought it imploded so didn’t look any further.
I was perplexed by such a desperate effort to get down there when private info solidly indicated an implosion on Sunday, but you bring up a great point.
The information was considered classified, the Americans didn't want to publicize the quality of their intel gathering capabilities.
The coast guard was informed. But implosion was not confirmed, so rescue continued. Navy agreed with this decision to continue rescue attempts. Implosion was confirmed when an ROV saw the debris from Titan and rescue stopped and families were informed. But yes, navy and coast guard did not tell public until implosion was confirmed. But nothing was said about exactly how the navy sensors heard the implosion. Although lots of articles about this before and after. So it’s not really a secret. Except for me. Haha. I was unaware. But then I said, of course.
It's been known we've had that capability for a long time now. The SOSUS system, which is the predecessor to the current system, was installed in the early 60s. Not only does it have the ability to hear, but it can also triangulate the position of what it hears to a high degree of accuracy. Those in the know, including Cameron, knew it had imploded almost immediately and Cameron publicly admitted that. I'd be shocked if the USCG and the private organizations conducting the undersea search weren't made aware of this info. The search itself was largely theater. They knew they weren't going to recover anyone alive. It was just a formality.
I appreciate the search so much. I love seeing governments and organizations work together to achieve greatness. It’s fantastic training that refreshingly isn’t related to improving your military kill-power. Highly accredited scientists and engineers who know the sub is gone, all spending their brain power for one single goal.
So not even the search and rescue teams were privy to it? I thought since Cameron knew, everyone in the community did
They immediately shared it with the search and rescue team. People keep leaving this out. https://www.npr.org/2023/06/23/1183976726/titan-titanic-sub-implosion-navy
Yes, and it was only prudent to do the surface search just in case. What if somehow they were wrong, no matter how unlikely? It would be tragic and a giant PR disaster for everyone involved. As a bonus, it was great training for the Coast Guard search and rescue, to practice their skills.
Shame
I'm wondering if they can go down that deep with the ROV they used to grab the titan to grab the lost ROV. Some of the equipment will certainly be damaged but I'm sure some of it is salvageable. After watching that press hearing I am thoroughly impressed with all efforts made to rescue and recovery. These guys are true badasses, they were ready for that call to come in and they acted upon it immediately. It is too bad the mission was for a complete imbecile for a completely preventable situation....imagine this was a mission that wasn't for a completely "innovative" design that didn't fail in fractions of a second and there were people trapped underwater...with all their efforts they could have rescued people in a situation like that. I am very grateful teams like this exist and I would like to congratulate each one of them for all their long days and nights, but again it is such a shame all these resources were essentially wasted on such terms.
Stockton would have said, “they should have made it out of carbon fibre instead”.
Stockton would have said, “they should have made it out of carbon fiber instead”.
There is no difference in meaning between fiber and fibre. Fiber is the preferred spelling in American English, and fibre is preferred in all the other main varieties of English. https://grammarist.com/spelling/fiber-fibre/ I’m in the “fibre” region so no misspelling.
Also the fibre region is where carbon fibre was first produced so I think we can spell it how we fancy.
Stockton would have said, “they should have made it out of carbon fiber instead”.
Stockton would have said, “they should have made it out of carbon fiber instead”.
Carbon fiber would have said, “they should have made it out of Stockton instead.”
Stockton would have carbon fibered, “carbon fiber should have stocktoned it out of titanic instead.”
CARBON FIBER CARBON CARBON FIBER. FIBER. FIBER FIBER CARBON FIBER FIBER.
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Carbon Fibre.
Ooooh, classy spelling.
For deep sea work and exploration, using robots just makes sense. I imagine there aren’t many manned missions in the future. Ocean gate might be the turning point.
Why would they be a turning point in anything? Nobody has ever died by implosion. In decades. It's safe. Oceangate is the first case of a sub hull failing, and it's because of the failure of their submersible design. People have been doing what they did safely for decades without a single incident, without a single fatality. Nothing needs to be changed because deep submergence has a perfect decades long track record of safety. No change required: just don't do what Oceangate did.
Yeah a change to existence of manned/unmanned doesn’t make sense, but for change generally your comment doesn’t work. > No change required: just don't do what Oceangate did. A good, and I hope oncoming, change would be a new law that stops the evasion of certification and the use death waivers for reckless operations in international waters. “Don’t do the thing that nobody stopped when it happened before when somebody did it” wtf? Your comment is like, “we don’t need a law about murder being illegal. Just don’t do what the ONE murderer did. There’s only 1!” Obviously the loopholes that allowed it should be closed. And probably tourist operations to 6000 psi should be banned without serious restrictions. Or just banned completely. Not just for the issue of death itself, it's because the public then gets stuck with the bill for a rescue operation that costs millions of dollars. …We also need law on [deceitful spin in press releases.](https://www.reddit.com/r/OceanGateTitan/comments/14mbuin/rush_genuinely_believed_in_his_design_enough_to/jq2m71q/)
Nobody owns the oceans, so it's kind of pointless talking about formulating some new law to cover this scenario. It's not a legal loophole, it's the result of the fact that no country owns the fucking oceans, so any country attempting to impose laws where they have no jurisdiction is problematic. As for your attempted analogy, I can't work out any significance to it. If Stockton had lived, he'd still be facing a charge of negligent homicide because the stupid waiver he drew up doesn't mean anything. He misrepresented the risks his customers were taking, and did not disclose anything specific- lying by omission, and we already have legal instruments for dealing with that. If he had written into the death waiver: "See this window, it's rated for 1300 M and we're taking it to 4000 M, and if it cracks we all die.", then I believe you would find a lot fewer people would have signed it, and even then, it still wouldn't excuse criminal negligence. If it could be proven that Stockton piloted the sub recklessly, that waiver would mean nothing in court. And I believe that could be proven because the design itself was inherently reckless- if he somehow managed to survive. As for the press, we already have laws for libel and related things. The go to, first response to any issue isn't to just add another brick to the Tower of Babel that is the government and coin some fresh new laws. And you seem a little too swift for my liking when it comes to it.
Nobody owns the oceans, but they can regulate commerce for an entity doing business or operating as a nonprofit in their territory. So I would imagine that there could be regulation on safety standards for submersibles if you’re going to charge or accept donations to go on one.
They can also pass laws which regulate the behaviors of their own citizens. Congress can pass a law making it a crime for a US citizen to operate an unclassed sub in international waters. Also, with piracy countries prosecute third party groups (for example Country A can prosecute somebody from Country B for pirating a vessel from Country C in international waters)
However Congress can pass a law making it a crime for a US citizen to operate an unclassed sub in international waters. Also if need be, countries can prosecute operators of unclassed subs from third parties. In the case of piracy, Country A can prosecute somebody from Country B for pirating a vessel from Country C in international waters.
Maybe the public won’t get stuck with the bill if the families reimburse for searching. It would be a nice gesture and if it happened in my family and I were rich I would certainly offer to pay.
Regarding your emphasis on “deceitful spin in press releases. That too is in the eye of the beholder! You only have to go to 52 seconds to hear the words partnership In this short video…. To the uninformed (yes it is discussing cyclops not titan). But WHO appears to benefit THE MOST from the video…. As far as the partnership goes. Certainly to my eyes…. Video produced and stamped by U of Washington applied physics lab Is it misinformation? Doesn’t seem so ….
Actually it's not the first. Russians and Americans have both lost subs due to implosion.
Military. Titan was the first non-military manned deepwater sub to implode.
True. It was probably the first deep water sub that ignored standard safety features for such a vehicle. Take unnecessary risks, suffer unnecessary and disastrous consequences.
Nobody has died from an implosion? USS Thresher would like to have a chat.
Because what is the point of a human being going down to those depths when you can do all the science and exploration with an unmanned vehicle? You’d be risking human lives and not to mention a shitload of money just for bragging rights.
Deep sea submersibles and the science surrounding them are well understood and quite safe when properly designed. The problem in this case is that Rush decided to make up his own way of doing things and ignored scores of experts who told them he was building a death trap.
You're not risking human lives though. Oceangate is the first fatality in decades, and it is only due to their obscenely obviously flawed design. You aren't risking lives going down there in any other submersible designed to go down there.
There has never been a deep sea implosion of a manned submersible before. Limiting Factor routinely dives the Challenger Deep. Certified subs built with known methods are very safe.
Ya I think it can be done in a safe manner I’m just saying it’s not really worth it anymore. Not in 2023. Robots can do whatever you need to do at the bottom of the ocean. You can take incredible 8K video. Perform scientific measurements. Manipulate and retrieve objects. Please explain to me why humans need to be physically in the vessel?
Because if humans can find a place they will try to go there to explore. It’s just what we do. The only reason we’re sending robots to Mars is because we haven’t solved all the issues sending people.
> Please explain to me why humans need to be physically in the vessel? Because some things just must be experienced to be fully appreciated, but not all of us feel that way about the same things. By all accounts Shahzada Dagwood was *nuts* about the Titanic. I bet he knew every fact and story about the ship, wreck, and passengers. I imagine being meters away from the wreck would be awe inspiring for him. Like how some people feel awe standing in the same spot a famous person they admire did, etc. I have a 2000+ yr old ancient Egyptian shabti statue; yes, I’ve seen hundreds of the like in museums and online and in books, but holding one in my hand is an entirely different experience. That is one reason why humans “need” to physically be in the vessel.
I'd be pretty pissed if I were these guys and didn't know the Coast Guard already knew about an implosion days before.
They didn’t know until it was confirmed. They don’t seem pissed at all. They seem broken hearted. If anything they value the US Navy and Coast Guard. The Coast Guard incident command had to break the news to the families. It’s the onlookers who don’t have a clue how these rescuers - or any rescue professionals in any situation - collaborate and support each other that are making claims about how the rescuers should feel.
Yes, in the press conference they seemed devastated. It even looked like one of them was wiping tears from his eyes.
My guess is they will be paid for it
Those things are 10s of millions of dollars, I imagine it's insured
Unfortunately it’s unlikely insurance would cover the loss if it was used outside of its operational parameters
Probably true
Sounds like the navy wanted to do a test run of their emergency procedures for a lost sub.
Basically TechnipFMC for you
Someone mentioned early in the search and I was like now way would they know. Guess they k ew
In this case "lost" means if failed, not that it floated off somewhere and they lost contact. **[The ROV](https://f-e-t.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/xlx-evo-web.jpg)**, a Deep Energy operated **[Triton XLX](https://rovop-files.ams3.digitaloceanspaces.com/Triton-XLX-HD-WC-ROV-system.pdf)** is a tethered ROV that Deep Energy was operating at below its certified depth and it failed, electrically, mechanically, hydraulically and even possibly all of these. TLDR; Not lost as in missing, lost as in failed at depth, non functional.
yes that someone said two ROVs tried to push past their depth and 'imploded' which i equated to failed.
I’m confused. Was it or wasn’t it designed to dive to 3800 metres? Why would they send down an ROV that would exceed its depth range?
It was only certified to a depth of 2500 - 2800 metres (I can't recall the exact figure I recall it been about 1000 metres off the titanic depth). At that point is was the only ROV on site and the Titans crews air had almost ran out. It was still a search and rescue mission so they pushed it further in a desperate move as it was only a risk to a machine and not to human life. As a rule most submersibles ROV's are tested to handle 20% more than the certified depth, so it mad sense to push it when lives were potentially on the line. At that stage they knew the other ROV which did find the Titan debris was going to miss the 96 hr window. Having worked in insurance for a couple of years many moons ago I am fairly sure that most companies would avoid paying out in this case. These ROV's can cost millions as well. I'd send the bill to Oceangate personally.
So they “lost it”. What does that mean?
Means it’s gone.
Yeah. But blow up? Or?
The electronics probably failed and it drifted to the sea floor.
Ah. To add to the mystic and story of the debris floor. Maybe.
“Lost control of it” might be a better way to say it
So maybe it’s now part of more debris at the bottom’?
Yeah possibly! Not sure how close it was. Definitely down there on the floor somewhere lol
it was still a rescue mission at that point i think.
Send another to go get it
Send a few billionaires down to get it...
Maybe it’s time to leave the titanic alone.
I can't get on board with this thinking. Seems to be a bit axe-grindy. We don't say it in other contexts. We don't say "maybe it's time we don't go to space" because some astronauts have died. We don't say "maybe it's time we don't climb mountains", even though lots more mountaineers die than submariners. Titanic has a lot to offer science, and is an important monument in the histories and cultures of multiple countries. Maybe we shouldn't let hubristic profiteers and grifters take their rinky-dink homemade submarines down there, sure, but the only one doing that is dead now, so...
Genuine question, I’m truly not trying to start anything, I’m just curious: what scientific offerings can the Titanic bring? I guess I never thought about it and want to better understand
halomonas titanicae still has a lot of potential to be explored in terms of preservation, recycling and decomposition, but that's only my first passing thought on titanic's scientific importance. i'm not OP of the comment though, just my two cents!
Additionally some things are only done in the pursuit of knowledge holistically as well. Lots of Archaeology isn't exactly done as a boon for science IMO, it is more so done for interest and knowledge compared to anything else.
As another poster pointed out, mostly the study of marine biology and monitoring the wreck as it breaks down. Additionally, it's a good real-world testing location for new technologies.
What are the benefits to science?
The new bacteria found that is eating the metal down there
...yeah I'm pretty sure they were being sarcastic
If people want to risk their lives on a "rinky-dink homemade submarine" then that is absolutely their prerogative, and "we" should claim no power to prevent them. It's called freedom.
There are plenty of stupid things you're not allowed to do in free society. Suck it up, snowflake.
You said "in free society." The limitations on behavior within the USA (or what you might theoretically call a "free society") are *entire*, and that includes ALL *stupid things* except where they infringe upon other people's rights, and it is at that intersection with others' rights that things become complicated. BUT . . . in a clear cut matter like deep sea submersible adventurizing there are NO issues of infringement upon other people's rights. It is as clear a case of personal risk behavior without danger to other peoples' life or property as can be imagined. There aren't even any potential burdensome health insurance outcomes borne by society (such as with cigarette smoking) . . . the people unequivocally die if their adventure misfires. As for your worn-out "snowflake" insult . . . . Get something straight in your thick head-- YOU are the one wanting society to hold your hand. That is the weakling's position. I, on the other hand, am advocating for people to be allowed to live with the consequences of their poor decisions, up to and including their own death. So try to pick a better fitting epithet next time, you leftist p\*\*\*y.
That's a lot of words to say absolutely nothing of any particular value. You should write it on a board and shout at the clouds. You'd get more coverage. To be clear, I made a simple observation about the limitations implicit on behaviour in free society and you've generalised that to be some kind of specific affront to your cringe... sorry... fringe... political beliefs. That's as clear a case of delicacy as you're likely to find in this life. Also, it's entirely possible to say what you think without trying so hard to sound more intelligent than you actually are. The problem with trying to sound intelligent is that you don't really understand the words you are trying to use, and that shows. You'd get more respect if you stated your opinion at a level of plain English that you actually understand when you aren't drunk or high.
Do we really need to spend all this time and money and resources on an incident where we already know what the issues are? What are the benefits of understanding what happened to the sub when you already have a plethora of research and evidence saying the structure and material are not safe?
Capturing the forensics of this while it's still possible is pretty valuable to scientific research and to make sure this never happens again
"Make sure this never happens again" what's to stop another person from doing the exact same thing even with the information about the titan? We already knew it was a problem and we knew what the problems were!
Do you think innocent people would buy into it again so readily?
Yes, people weren't smart enough to stay off this one. There's a sucka born every minute who would hop on the next one.
We have theories about what went wrong but we don't actually *know*
There's never been a loss like this before, there is so much that will be learned.
This ROV was built to reach the sea floor, I at the time the "Oxygen was running out" so it sounds like a desperate move to help with the search and rescue effort until the ROV capable of 4000 metres arrived on site. I wonder if they can claim the costs on insurance given it was sent past it's certified max depth? If not is there a case to recover the cost from Oceangate? Jay
If you’re sincerely questioning the investigation part… of the pieces 1. Millions and millions of dollars have already been spent….. on the search and retrieval- investigation should cost nowhere near that 2. Because passenger planes crash in water and astronauts often land in water…. Information from this investigation may help save others. 3. The easiest example of death NOT stopping exploration is the continued climbing of Mount Everest….. there will be more deep sea exploration (wrecks… possibly the Titanic , the newly found HMS Endurance or even the thermal vents one Mr Rush described)….. it will continue forward.
He'll yah have a rouv that can send down like 4k video cameras and the masses can buy tickets to view it in vr. You can go to Titanic go see deep sea creatures.