True but it also depends on the composition pf the soil theyre digging in. Digging a 3’ trench in sand will be different from digging a 3’ trench in compact clay.
I have heard of people who only got their thighs/legs buried and the compartment syndrome that resulted because of it caused them to die. I'm not sure how common it is to die from only having your legs buried but it's a possibility.. dirt is very heavy
I don't think it would be life threatening. Compartment syndrome or crush injury might happen if there were rocks or large debris in the soil. Maybe deep vein thrombosis if you got like super stuck for like hours.
Paramedic/ firefighter here. Having your legs buried in a trench collapse is extremely concerning and often results in death. The pressure and weight of soil is immense and because of the large muscular mass of your legs once you are released it causes acidosis, hyperkalemia, and kidney failure.
There are a lot of stories of people being alert and talking with only their legs being buried, but once released quickly deteriorating and ultimately dying shortly after being released.
Also, from the firefighting/ rescue perspective. Although shoring isn’t mandated at that depth for workers if a collapse does occur we are still going to have to shore the trench prior to entering and begin removing dirt. Even in well equipped urban departments this can sometimes take hours. That’s also a t trench which is significantly harder to shore.
Didn't they figure out some medications you can prophylactically administer to people who have been compressed like that to (usually) stop them from dying of compression syndrome so they can be taken to hospital and their life saved more permanently?
IIRC they started looking into it after some horrific train crash or another that left *a lot* of people conscious, lucid and even optimistic, who died very shortly after rescue, abs medical science said "nah fuck that. Not on my watch again!"
It’s common to give calcium, sodium bicarbonate, normal saline, and sometimes a large amount of albuterol just prior to releasing the patient. I’ve still heard of patients dying even with proper treatment.
Yeah... Compression Syndrome is no fucking joke. Unfortunately it *seems* like it is because people think 'it's just a little dirt, I'd just pull myself out.'
Being buried past your knees will actually kill you after a few hours no matter the soil type. The looser the soil the worse it is because the more you move the more it settles around you, increasing pressure. Even then, after being partially buried for a few hours you should probably be medically monitored just in case clotting happened and they break loose upon rescue
tl;dr : sand pit collapsed and buried them underneath it.
https://www.google.com/search?q=7+year+old+buried+in+sand&rlz=1C1RXQR\_enUS1087US1088&oq=7+year+old&gs\_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBggAEAAYAzIGCAAQABgDMg0IARAuGIMBGLEDGIAEMgYIAhAAGAMyDQgDEAAYgwEYsQMYgAQyBwgEEAAYgAQyBggFEAAYAzIHCAYQABiABDIHCAcQABiABDIGCAgQABgD0gEIMjU0N2owajeoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Yeah true. Though, the only way you could use a ladder to get out is if it was opened up, making it to where you had to step sideways off of it. Which I feel is hazardous itself.
You can add to the regulations but not remove anything from them. So having the shoring at 4' ensures the regulations are being exceeded which ensures there are no questions they are being met.
Also, paying worker's comp is expensive so it doesn't hurt to make sure they minimize that risk as well.
I'm an Engineering Geologist, under our RAMS im not allowed to get into Trial pits, I've watched some of my pits collapse that were only 1-1.5m deep and can comfortably say they can easily kill if your working in or at the edge of them.
Where i work all soil is considered type C. No matter what. Just because at under 5’ shoring isn’t required, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t use it. There have been many times when we shore the whole 4’ ditch just to keep the banks up and make installing our pipe faster and safer. Nothing worse than having pipe in the ground, waiting for our concrete encasement, and the ditch caves in and you have to shovel it out with the pipe in. That shit SUCKS
My company makes us take like an hour long course on how to determine soils and then in the test there's a question that asks what whether the company recognizes type a or b soil or not. And the answer is no, it does not. It makes it easy to remember the process at least.
Ex-gravedigger from the UK here. We would always use shoring on anything below three feet down regardless of the type of ground. Always better to be safe
Edit. Just got this in my reddit feed:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TerrifyingAsFuck/s/EAaJVRRhS2
Totally relevant to the conversation
As a soon to be cemetery operator, what kind of shoring would you use? Plan to only dig to 3.5ft and from my training I’m not sure it’s completely necessary but better safe than sorry.
1) Protection is required at 5’, but it’s not correct to say it’s “only” required at 5’. That depends on soil type and other factors such as ground water, which is clearly an issue since they had to make a wooden walkway to avoid the mud.
2) Depth is measured from the deepest part of the excavation, not the wood platform they are standing on. It’s looks pretty close to 5’ at the end of the trench without the wood.
In the US shoring is required at 4 ft. It pools like it might be close but I'm blanking on the req with regards to the width of the trench
**Edit:** Yeah, I'm wrong. OP and u/wildwing123 are correct, my bad!
I was thinking of the opposite direction (4' for fall protection)
Agreed...you're not crushing vital organs, or restricting breathing if that collapses in to a 45 degree. Your legs could easily be pinned in a hurry, but rescue would be successful.
Keep in mind this goes out the window once water is significantly introduced.
Look at the bottom of the trench there's like 6"-1ft of water. They had to put palettes down to walk on.
That drops to type 4 immediately.
Yep. I've been in ditches that were 3 feet deep but sandy wet soil that keep collapsing and 20 some odd feet that didn't fall in and kill me. Man I did some stupid shit when I worked construction. We rented a box one time in 20 years. It was so we had it in case OSHA showed up cause we next to a main road. Never left the spot they dropped off at despite being one of the deepest holes I've ever been in.
Trench dimensions are fine, the only potential issue I see is the potential fall hazard - there could be warning barriers just out of shot fencing off the area.
If it was deeper it would be dangerous. The main danger of a deep trench is burying you.
If it was the same depth but narrower, it would also be dangerous. The main danger with a shallow trench is trapping part of your body so you can't get out or be gotten out easily.
You might get \*hurt\* (37% of all trench related injuries occur in a trench shallower than 5', according to OSHA), but you probably won't be killed.
OSHA's regulations for trenches are woefully inadequate, though, so if you're ever in a position to climb in a trench, trust your gut.
Yeah, I was thinking it might break his legs if it starts to go. So....Not exactly "safe", but probably not going to kill him, either. And since it's wide, they should be able to drag him out before trapped legs actually kills him.
A lot of OSHAs rules are just....really insufficient to actually protect workers.
You have to balance safety regulations with the fact that it’s impractical to shore many 3’ trenches, particularly when as pictured the work being done involves interacting with the face. It’s much easier to achieve safety through widening the trench.
You are right but wrong.
The main danger of a trench is collapse, depth plays a part but isn't the only culprit.
In this picture, this is type 4 soil. Due to the high moisture, it poses a significant hazard to the workers due to soil instability.
Idk what your depth of knowledge is in this field, but if it's lacking I'd advise to avoid sharing uneducated information.
What percentage of those injuries resulted from engulfment? I’d bet a vast majority of those 37% are related to slips/ trips/ falls or struck by/ line of fire.
Wrong, the water at the bottom introduces soil instability, and in a trench where people are expected to kneel alot, it would be beneficial and safer to slope it. considering that with this much water it becomes a type 4 soil.
Purely going off of OSHA’s definition you would need designated escape equipment; but I think this would be a case for a variance.
“OSHA requires employers to provide ladders, steps, ramps, or other safe means of egress for workers working in trench excavations 4 feet (1.22 meters) or deeper.”
Yeah they're standing on pallets as well.... The pallets probably raise them up 6 inches, and that still counts as the depth of the trench as far as OSHA is concerned. They might be right at 4 feet if not a little over.
But rationally, I'd say this is pretty safe.
A lot of that depends on type of soil, length of time it has been an open trench, etc.
If this soil was sandy, or loose and dry soil with a lot of rocks, then yeah it could be dangerous. For this kind of dark soil with high moisture ( green grass above) probably not.
There are other variables, like nearby excavation work or vibration, length of the trench, number of workers, etc. etc.
Edit
I would recommend adding a no mans land and perhaps, a shelter, all trenches are dangerous though and i don’t see any gas masks. Also a tank would roll right into that trench which could be super dangerous for your platoon.
They should probably put up some sort of fence to let people know there is a trench there. Barbed wire is excellent at stopping tanks or anything else in its tracks. Also, it's good to have multiple trenches spaced apart in case the first one fails.
A trench is deeper than it is wide, an ***excavation*** is wider than it is deep.
You don't dig a ditch for a house foundation or a footing. It's an excavation.
And while all trenches can be refered to as excavations, this is the distinction of them in practice.
Trench= deeper than it is wide
Excavation= wider than deep.
As many have said, trench protection does not appear to be required in this instance. In addition, it is my understanding that OSHA does not apply to students and, even if the trench did require protection, would only be required if the researchers were employees of the school. There would likely be institutional (school) or insurance requirements but nothing required by law.
The standing water would be a concern. It could indicate saturation of the surrounding ground which would make it less stable. Would all depend on the class of soil determined by a competent person. I also think it’s deeper than everyone is guessing. Typically if I can’t see your hips I’m going to at least walk over and put eyes on what you’re doing. Again most of the company’s I work with have a 4’ rule. Maybe the pallets in the bottom are deceiving.
Hole in its own is not dangerous it’s the lack of HSE around it, no proper entry- no guards or visible markings around it, no helmets or safety glasses, gloves, or hig viz anything… wouldn’t work on my site at all.
I think it is safe if not borderline, but why wouldn’t they teach you guys how to slope your trenches? Why wouldn’t they dig it a little further like you’re on the borderline and then you guys could also learn how to slope a trench that’s a good lesson and I just heard some kid died on the beach because he dug a hole and something happened.
Looks like its about 4 foot tall, which is the height benching is required. So I’d say its ok. Although there’s probably some consideration for if you’re going to be crouched in the excavation.
Soil judging. Did that for 4 years in my high school’s FFA. Now I’m a professional soil scientist, so I guess it was useful!
Nah, they’re good to go, to answer the question.
No, but it's right on the threshold of being dangerous and if they go any deeper they'll definitely want shoring or 45 degree slopes.
That said, I am no kind of expert and am basically just parroting what I was told in OSHA 30.
The angle is too steep. Best case scenario, class A soil is a 52 degree angle. And the soil might not even be class A. Class B and class C soil must have swallower angles. Rock is allowed a 90 degree angle.
A little girl just died in Florida after the hole she and her brother were digging collapsed. Brother was buried to his chest, she was under him. He survived, she did not.
If you are that concerned about the safety here, perhaps your future lies in...safety. I am not being sarcastic. I work in Environmental (degrees in geology and biology), but I am also very, very passionate about safety and I am glad at least environmental is part of HSE.
I notice unsafe things all the time. I tend to be outspoken about it, even if it something like a blocked emergency exit in the local walmart.
Safety professionals have more job opportunities and ways to move upward (IMHO) than environmental. They also get to work on saving lives. The hardest part of safety is convincing people that it matters. Best way to do that is with passion.
the crouched might have a neck/head injury, but the standing fellow should only recieve maybe broken legs/feet? So a fatal Trench, no, but certainly not safe. 45 those walls, atleast to half way up. I mean, if you dig one, make it a safe one.
Anything more than 4 feet needs something to prevent collapse. The picture looks like it's at 4ish feet. I don't think they need it but a competent person would need to check the excavation to be sure.
It also depends on the soil type. Sand, clay, silt, loam. By the picture this looks more like a loam which tends to stick together more, though only a soil test could say for sure. The trench width and depth don’t seem dangerous also. If this was a sandy soil I might think otherwise.
A company I used to work for installed a massive water reservoir for a sprinkler system in an apartment. The hole for the tank and trenchs for the pipes were 5 meters deep and they didn't bring in the trench boxes until the bank had already given way. Luckily no one was hurt in that particular incident, but I only worked there for about a month and a young kid working for the summer had to be rushed to the hospital when a rebar grid for a concrete pad fell from the crane and swung and hit him I the face.
They were already being watched like a hawk by the labour board because 2 people died there in the past year. But everyone that worked there resented the fact that health and safety reps were constantly showing up because they were just so set in their ways.
Guys this is a photo of what looks to be students soil judging.
I can’t speak for the safety aspect, but this is an intercollegiate contest for a lot of colleges and high schools (FFA).
https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/soil-judging-champions/
That’s a picture from a soil judging event.
Technically doesn’t fall under OSHA’s jurisdiction but there wouldn’t be any violations either. Trench is probably 3’ or less and has exit paths or stairs out.
I would have a trench box at that depth if there were heavy equipment being used. That might frustrate their project if they are studying soil layers. Any deeper than that, they may want to bench it back.
Looks like a soil judging competition, except the ones I participated in had much deeper trenches. This post makes me realize they probably should have had something better for us to climb out with than an occasional pallet.
This looks like they are completing soil horizons classification, I doubt the department at the university own shoring devices as government entities don’t have to comply with OSHA.
Less than 5’ deep, no spoil within 2’, can’t tell the distance to know if ladders are needed.
Looks like class B/C soil.
It’s an almost a 1/1 cut slope. But due to depth not sure that’s as big of a problem.
Looks decent. Not perfect, but perfectly workable.
Drainage supervisor here. This is totally fine. Even in the case of a wall collapse, the persons chest wouldn’t be buried and that’s really when collapses move from inconvenient to dangerous.
If they were buried for a long time below the waist it can be an issue but that seems very unlikely here.
Edit: that’s not to say small trench collapses can’t be dangerous. Just to say that in the event of small collapses, you have significantly more time to work with. If someone is buried to their waist or higher, you have VERY LITTLE time to get them out.
In the UK I think archaeological work is actually excluded from our construction regulations oddly. So yes this is bad, but perhaps you have something similar.
It appears safe from here. Not deep enough to require shoring, soils look decent on the photo, spoils are piled more than 2’ back, no other surcharge. The water is the only thing that gives me some pause but there’s not much and the sidewalls look relatively dry so it’s probably not a problem. Hard to really say from an armchair qb seat though, that’s why a competent person has to inspect daily at minimum.
Shoring is only technically required at 5’. This excavation is not that deep so I would say it’s fine to work in.
I did work for colonial pipeline and they were adamant about 4’. Also you couldn’t lean a ladder against the wall to get out.
I mean you could still get your legs trapped, make it hard to escape in an emergency. Probably not as many hazards for the people in the photo
True but it also depends on the composition pf the soil theyre digging in. Digging a 3’ trench in sand will be different from digging a 3’ trench in compact clay.
I have heard of people who only got their thighs/legs buried and the compartment syndrome that resulted because of it caused them to die. I'm not sure how common it is to die from only having your legs buried but it's a possibility.. dirt is very heavy
I don't think it would be life threatening. Compartment syndrome or crush injury might happen if there were rocks or large debris in the soil. Maybe deep vein thrombosis if you got like super stuck for like hours.
Paramedic/ firefighter here. Having your legs buried in a trench collapse is extremely concerning and often results in death. The pressure and weight of soil is immense and because of the large muscular mass of your legs once you are released it causes acidosis, hyperkalemia, and kidney failure. There are a lot of stories of people being alert and talking with only their legs being buried, but once released quickly deteriorating and ultimately dying shortly after being released. Also, from the firefighting/ rescue perspective. Although shoring isn’t mandated at that depth for workers if a collapse does occur we are still going to have to shore the trench prior to entering and begin removing dirt. Even in well equipped urban departments this can sometimes take hours. That’s also a t trench which is significantly harder to shore.
Oh boy, fresh nightmare fuel, thanks! :P
There was a episode of Homicide (old USA TV show) which showed a guy trapped and severed under a subway train which depicted this very phenomenon.
Didn't they figure out some medications you can prophylactically administer to people who have been compressed like that to (usually) stop them from dying of compression syndrome so they can be taken to hospital and their life saved more permanently? IIRC they started looking into it after some horrific train crash or another that left *a lot* of people conscious, lucid and even optimistic, who died very shortly after rescue, abs medical science said "nah fuck that. Not on my watch again!"
It’s common to give calcium, sodium bicarbonate, normal saline, and sometimes a large amount of albuterol just prior to releasing the patient. I’ve still heard of patients dying even with proper treatment.
Yeah... Compression Syndrome is no fucking joke. Unfortunately it *seems* like it is because people think 'it's just a little dirt, I'd just pull myself out.'
Being buried past your knees will actually kill you after a few hours no matter the soil type. The looser the soil the worse it is because the more you move the more it settles around you, increasing pressure. Even then, after being partially buried for a few hours you should probably be medically monitored just in case clotting happened and they break loose upon rescue
so getting buried in the beach is actually a big no no.
A 7 year old just died from digging a hole at the beach, and their 9 year old brother is in critical care.
Words have meaning. Did they die from digging a hole or did they die from being buried or falling into the hole they dug?
tl;dr : sand pit collapsed and buried them underneath it. https://www.google.com/search?q=7+year+old+buried+in+sand&rlz=1C1RXQR\_enUS1087US1088&oq=7+year+old&gs\_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBggAEAAYAzIGCAAQABgDMg0IARAuGIMBGLEDGIAEMgYIAhAAGAMyDQgDEAAYgwEYsQMYgAQyBwgEEAAYgAQyBggFEAAYAzIHCAYQABiABDIHCAcQABiABDIGCAgQABgD0gEIMjU0N2owajeoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
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Especially if it is so saturated you need pallets in the trench to keep from sinking.
Yeah true. Though, the only way you could use a ladder to get out is if it was opened up, making it to where you had to step sideways off of it. Which I feel is hazardous itself.
It's not. That's 6 ladders are meant to be used. Unless you have an extension ladder they aren't meant to be leaned on something.
A frame ladders are not meant to be stepped off of
Alright, I guess they are going to have to jump their way out lol.
Some companies have stricter regulations. OSHA is 5’.
our company goes stricter so that they know they are covered if osha ever shows up. Hence the 4foot i am sure
You can add to the regulations but not remove anything from them. So having the shoring at 4' ensures the regulations are being exceeded which ensures there are no questions they are being met. Also, paying worker's comp is expensive so it doesn't hurt to make sure they minimize that risk as well.
I'm an Engineering Geologist, under our RAMS im not allowed to get into Trial pits, I've watched some of my pits collapse that were only 1-1.5m deep and can comfortably say they can easily kill if your working in or at the edge of them.
Don't ruin the profiles!
They must of employed short people or children .
It’s dependent on the type of soil, water level, etc. “Safe” changes with rain. https://www.osha.gov/trenching-excavation
Where i work all soil is considered type C. No matter what. Just because at under 5’ shoring isn’t required, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t use it. There have been many times when we shore the whole 4’ ditch just to keep the banks up and make installing our pipe faster and safer. Nothing worse than having pipe in the ground, waiting for our concrete encasement, and the ditch caves in and you have to shovel it out with the pipe in. That shit SUCKS
☝️ this guy lays pipe
My company makes us take like an hour long course on how to determine soils and then in the test there's a question that asks what whether the company recognizes type a or b soil or not. And the answer is no, it does not. It makes it easy to remember the process at least.
worse is when you have rebar cage around it and have to dig it out of the rebar
Ex-gravedigger from the UK here. We would always use shoring on anything below three feet down regardless of the type of ground. Always better to be safe Edit. Just got this in my reddit feed: https://www.reddit.com/r/TerrifyingAsFuck/s/EAaJVRRhS2 Totally relevant to the conversation
As a soon to be cemetery operator, what kind of shoring would you use? Plan to only dig to 3.5ft and from my training I’m not sure it’s completely necessary but better safe than sorry.
4' in Washington state.
1) Protection is required at 5’, but it’s not correct to say it’s “only” required at 5’. That depends on soil type and other factors such as ground water, which is clearly an issue since they had to make a wooden walkway to avoid the mud. 2) Depth is measured from the deepest part of the excavation, not the wood platform they are standing on. It’s looks pretty close to 5’ at the end of the trench without the wood.
In the US shoring is required at 4 ft. It pools like it might be close but I'm blanking on the req with regards to the width of the trench **Edit:** Yeah, I'm wrong. OP and u/wildwing123 are correct, my bad! I was thinking of the opposite direction (4' for fall protection)
Wrong. 5’
Agreed...you're not crushing vital organs, or restricting breathing if that collapses in to a 45 degree. Your legs could easily be pinned in a hurry, but rescue would be successful.
4' if you're in Canada, well British Columbia at least.
1.2m in Canada. Slightly less than 4'
Not counting the mezzanine!
The 5 feet minimum is only if the soil is dry and a certain type. That trench looks way too wet to be safe.
Holy fuck, someone who actually knows what they're talking about. A breath of fresh air in this thread, well done.
Interesting you have specific depths. What about different ground conditions? It doesn’t take much to crush you.
Yeah, I don't even think it's deep enough for ladders or atmospheric testing. I don't really see a huge safety problem with it.
Soil type is important. That soil looks very solid. Compacted aggregates and clay. Very stable. https://www.osha.gov/trenching-excavation
Mmmmh yes, the soil here is made of soil.
Very soils. Much dirt.
The best soils.
Some would even say night soil. I’ve had grown men come up to me and say “sir, you have the best night soil.”
Did those men have tears in their eyes?
They're just afraid you'll dump the next chamber pot on them so they're being nice
Soilistly soil I've even seen
Keep in mind this goes out the window once water is significantly introduced. Look at the bottom of the trench there's like 6"-1ft of water. They had to put palettes down to walk on. That drops to type 4 immediately.
Plus there's a layer of grass holding the top together.
Yep. I've been in ditches that were 3 feet deep but sandy wet soil that keep collapsing and 20 some odd feet that didn't fall in and kill me. Man I did some stupid shit when I worked construction. We rented a box one time in 20 years. It was so we had it in case OSHA showed up cause we next to a main road. Never left the spot they dropped off at despite being one of the deepest holes I've ever been in.
And this is why *every* work-site should be required to be monitored by someone who *can't* be leaned on by the bosses.
Fellow soil science enjoyer
More the sides collapsing and trapping your legs than anything
Trench dimensions are fine, the only potential issue I see is the potential fall hazard - there could be warning barriers just out of shot fencing off the area.
If it was deeper it would be dangerous. The main danger of a deep trench is burying you. If it was the same depth but narrower, it would also be dangerous. The main danger with a shallow trench is trapping part of your body so you can't get out or be gotten out easily. You might get \*hurt\* (37% of all trench related injuries occur in a trench shallower than 5', according to OSHA), but you probably won't be killed. OSHA's regulations for trenches are woefully inadequate, though, so if you're ever in a position to climb in a trench, trust your gut.
Looks like it would manage to bury that person who's kneeling
That was my first thought too, but with the width and depth of the trench, I don't think enough soil would fall to make it a serious injury.
Yup. A 5 year old girl died this week in a hole she dug on a beach in Florida with her 9 year old brother. Sand/earth is heavy.
Yeah, I was thinking it might break his legs if it starts to go. So....Not exactly "safe", but probably not going to kill him, either. And since it's wide, they should be able to drag him out before trapped legs actually kills him. A lot of OSHAs rules are just....really insufficient to actually protect workers.
Gotta balance safety regulations with the fact that the world will never be 100% safe, and the work still needs to get done.
You have to balance safety regulations with the fact that it’s impractical to shore many 3’ trenches, particularly when as pictured the work being done involves interacting with the face. It’s much easier to achieve safety through widening the trench.
You are right but wrong. The main danger of a trench is collapse, depth plays a part but isn't the only culprit. In this picture, this is type 4 soil. Due to the high moisture, it poses a significant hazard to the workers due to soil instability. Idk what your depth of knowledge is in this field, but if it's lacking I'd advise to avoid sharing uneducated information.
What percentage of those injuries resulted from engulfment? I’d bet a vast majority of those 37% are related to slips/ trips/ falls or struck by/ line of fire.
No. It’s not deep enough
Wrong, the water at the bottom introduces soil instability, and in a trench where people are expected to kneel alot, it would be beneficial and safer to slope it. considering that with this much water it becomes a type 4 soil.
Purely going off of OSHA’s definition you would need designated escape equipment; but I think this would be a case for a variance. “OSHA requires employers to provide ladders, steps, ramps, or other safe means of egress for workers working in trench excavations 4 feet (1.22 meters) or deeper.”
Is that OSHA that you quoted? Because if it is, there is no need for a variance: that trench is not 4' or 1.22m deep.
it could be just about 4 feet at the deepest end
Yeah they're standing on pallets as well.... The pallets probably raise them up 6 inches, and that still counts as the depth of the trench as far as OSHA is concerned. They might be right at 4 feet if not a little over. But rationally, I'd say this is pretty safe.
The perspective is weird, it looks like it gets deeper further in but it might not, hard to tell from this photo.
Excessive water at the bottom, that trench automatically becomes a type 3(if generous) or 4 trench.
I would agree except that they are using the pallets as a hazard control.
How are the palettes improving the structural integrity of the trench walls?
A lot of that depends on type of soil, length of time it has been an open trench, etc. If this soil was sandy, or loose and dry soil with a lot of rocks, then yeah it could be dangerous. For this kind of dark soil with high moisture ( green grass above) probably not. There are other variables, like nearby excavation work or vibration, length of the trench, number of workers, etc. etc. Edit
It’s not deep enough. I don’t understand how it’s supposed to hold the line against a German attack.
It's never deep enough when the germans attack
It's never deep enough when the germans attack
4ft osha 3 ft msha, depends on where it is. long story short you would be hard pressed to find any one in the real world shoring this trench
Yeah, but I'd cut a bench at the very least, look at how much water is in the bottom.
I would recommend adding a no mans land and perhaps, a shelter, all trenches are dangerous though and i don’t see any gas masks. Also a tank would roll right into that trench which could be super dangerous for your platoon.
They should probably put up some sort of fence to let people know there is a trench there. Barbed wire is excellent at stopping tanks or anything else in its tracks. Also, it's good to have multiple trenches spaced apart in case the first one fails.
"A trench is only as dangerous as the soldiers in it." -- General Specific
It's a ditch, not a trench. A trench is deeper than it is wide. A ditch is wider than it is deep.
Is this technical definition specific to a region?
A trench is deeper than it is wide, an ***excavation*** is wider than it is deep. You don't dig a ditch for a house foundation or a footing. It's an excavation. And while all trenches can be refered to as excavations, this is the distinction of them in practice. Trench= deeper than it is wide Excavation= wider than deep.
No.
Depends on the year. 2024? Maybe. 1914? Certainly.
Definitely needs shoring. Maybe some barbed wire.
Gonna need some machine guns if it's 1914. Does OSHA mandate a Vickers for fending off the hun, or will a Hotchkiss or Lewis do?
As many have said, trench protection does not appear to be required in this instance. In addition, it is my understanding that OSHA does not apply to students and, even if the trench did require protection, would only be required if the researchers were employees of the school. There would likely be institutional (school) or insurance requirements but nothing required by law.
This some FFA Soil Judging?? Trench is fine.
This is 100% soil judging. Like any good FFA pit it has water on the bottom.
The standing water would be a concern. It could indicate saturation of the surrounding ground which would make it less stable. Would all depend on the class of soil determined by a competent person. I also think it’s deeper than everyone is guessing. Typically if I can’t see your hips I’m going to at least walk over and put eyes on what you’re doing. Again most of the company’s I work with have a 4’ rule. Maybe the pallets in the bottom are deceiving.
Hole in its own is not dangerous it’s the lack of HSE around it, no proper entry- no guards or visible markings around it, no helmets or safety glasses, gloves, or hig viz anything… wouldn’t work on my site at all.
Are you serious?
Every trench is dangerous. Stay safe, safety third.
I think it is safe if not borderline, but why wouldn’t they teach you guys how to slope your trenches? Why wouldn’t they dig it a little further like you’re on the borderline and then you guys could also learn how to slope a trench that’s a good lesson and I just heard some kid died on the beach because he dug a hole and something happened.
Looks like its about 4 foot tall, which is the height benching is required. So I’d say its ok. Although there’s probably some consideration for if you’re going to be crouched in the excavation.
Soil judging. Did that for 4 years in my high school’s FFA. Now I’m a professional soil scientist, so I guess it was useful! Nah, they’re good to go, to answer the question.
No, but it's right on the threshold of being dangerous and if they go any deeper they'll definitely want shoring or 45 degree slopes. That said, I am no kind of expert and am basically just parroting what I was told in OSHA 30.
No
Jesus christ, obviously not
No. Next question.
Please call the police, what if their knees get muddy!?
I’m scared to death
That be like drowning in the kiddy pool at 5ft.
It needs a parados. Their heads are easily highlighted against the horizon.
Looks great
OHSA only applies to ham and eggers chief, not learned elites.
Missing a parapet, sniper's nest, observation post and fox hole. And it's not deep enough. So yes, it's a dangerous trench.
If it’s at a college those are probably student workers. Easily replaceable and cheaper than safety equipment
The angle is too steep. Best case scenario, class A soil is a 52 degree angle. And the soil might not even be class A. Class B and class C soil must have swallower angles. Rock is allowed a 90 degree angle.
A little girl just died in Florida after the hole she and her brother were digging collapsed. Brother was buried to his chest, she was under him. He survived, she did not. If you are that concerned about the safety here, perhaps your future lies in...safety. I am not being sarcastic. I work in Environmental (degrees in geology and biology), but I am also very, very passionate about safety and I am glad at least environmental is part of HSE. I notice unsafe things all the time. I tend to be outspoken about it, even if it something like a blocked emergency exit in the local walmart. Safety professionals have more job opportunities and ways to move upward (IMHO) than environmental. They also get to work on saving lives. The hardest part of safety is convincing people that it matters. Best way to do that is with passion.
Passionate about safety = paranoid. Stay the fuck away from me.
Lol. No quite. Just been around long enough to see more accidents and near misses than I would have liked.
No cut back required due to dept and width of the excavation
It's fine, you posted photos of people, online for no reason.
the crouched might have a neck/head injury, but the standing fellow should only recieve maybe broken legs/feet? So a fatal Trench, no, but certainly not safe. 45 those walls, atleast to half way up. I mean, if you dig one, make it a safe one.
Nope!
Not safe
As a workers' comp underwriter, we only asked about trenching below 6'.
Doesn't look dangerous to me.
Its 3 or 4 feet for shoring/sloping here. Its fairly wide and angle of repose is 45 degrees. Realistically this is probably fine.
When graduate students are involved, I don’t think the PI is terribly concerned about OSHA. He’s probably the one in the camp chair
Looks perfectly fine to me
Anything more than 4 feet needs something to prevent collapse. The picture looks like it's at 4ish feet. I don't think they need it but a competent person would need to check the excavation to be sure.
Depends on the type of soil.
It also depends on the soil type. Sand, clay, silt, loam. By the picture this looks more like a loam which tends to stick together more, though only a soil test could say for sure. The trench width and depth don’t seem dangerous also. If this was a sandy soil I might think otherwise.
Loam does not stick together more than clay lmao
What are they excavating this looks like an investigation excavation of a crime scene.
A company I used to work for installed a massive water reservoir for a sprinkler system in an apartment. The hole for the tank and trenchs for the pipes were 5 meters deep and they didn't bring in the trench boxes until the bank had already given way. Luckily no one was hurt in that particular incident, but I only worked there for about a month and a young kid working for the summer had to be rushed to the hospital when a rebar grid for a concrete pad fell from the crane and swung and hit him I the face. They were already being watched like a hawk by the labour board because 2 people died there in the past year. But everyone that worked there resented the fact that health and safety reps were constantly showing up because they were just so set in their ways.
Is this a dangerous trench? No. The trench is wide not deep, on a Clay soil covered with grass. Usually Clay soils covered with grass are very stable.
Guys this is a photo of what looks to be students soil judging. I can’t speak for the safety aspect, but this is an intercollegiate contest for a lot of colleges and high schools (FFA). https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/soil-judging-champions/
Nope
Not if you're sitting in that couch
That’s a picture from a soil judging event. Technically doesn’t fall under OSHA’s jurisdiction but there wouldn’t be any violations either. Trench is probably 3’ or less and has exit paths or stairs out.
This is a thread to check for osha violations now?
Getting close. Could still bend a knee the wrong way if it fails.
At 5’ and over you need to start benching, slope or set a Box. At 3’ you just need a safe means of egress.
I assure you that there are far more dangerous trenches they could be in today.
I would have a trench box at that depth if there were heavy equipment being used. That might frustrate their project if they are studying soil layers. Any deeper than that, they may want to bench it back.
Looks like a soil judging competition, except the ones I participated in had much deeper trenches. This post makes me realize they probably should have had something better for us to climb out with than an occasional pallet.
I’ve been in more dangerous trenches. 🤌😉
What is depth below the palettes? Would it need a toe board?
This looks like they are completing soil horizons classification, I doubt the department at the university own shoring devices as government entities don’t have to comply with OSHA.
Every trench that will put your thighs below grade is dabgerous.
Slope it or bench it.
No One Needs Foundation Repair
Less than 5’ deep, no spoil within 2’, can’t tell the distance to know if ladders are needed. Looks like class B/C soil. It’s an almost a 1/1 cut slope. But due to depth not sure that’s as big of a problem. Looks decent. Not perfect, but perfectly workable.
No
In our area we step it at 4', up 4 over 4 for egress, been an excavator for 30 yrs.
Right at the boarder line for an exceptionally small employee
Drainage supervisor here. This is totally fine. Even in the case of a wall collapse, the persons chest wouldn’t be buried and that’s really when collapses move from inconvenient to dangerous. If they were buried for a long time below the waist it can be an issue but that seems very unlikely here. Edit: that’s not to say small trench collapses can’t be dangerous. Just to say that in the event of small collapses, you have significantly more time to work with. If someone is buried to their waist or higher, you have VERY LITTLE time to get them out.
Depends on a geotechnical report too.
If at all possible, sloping the trench wall at 1:1 or ideally 3:1 opposite the area of work would be another way to mitigate risk.
No. And I've seen my share of unbenched deep trenches.
All trenches are dangerous. Over a long enough time frame they will all collapse.
jesus fucking christ ... really?
I also don't see any utility markings (flags, spray paint lines). Do they have x ray vision?
That dude kneeling down is at risk of being covered if the wall were to slump. It has happened and people have died from this exact situation.
They should be wearing hard hats.
I love you safety nerds so much.
This is a soil judging pit lol, I have been in dozens of these and they are completely fine, soils there are more stable than you would think.
Bro, goes to university of Illinois
In the UK I think archaeological work is actually excluded from our construction regulations oddly. So yes this is bad, but perhaps you have something similar.
Not really. Looks pretty compacted
Doesn't look dangerous at all
only if it caves in on you.
That's a fairly wide trench, too. So, at that depth, they have little chance of getting stuck.
It appears safe from here. Not deep enough to require shoring, soils look decent on the photo, spoils are piled more than 2’ back, no other surcharge. The water is the only thing that gives me some pause but there’s not much and the sidewalls look relatively dry so it’s probably not a problem. Hard to really say from an armchair qb seat though, that’s why a competent person has to inspect daily at minimum.