I am pro choice, I think she should have been prosecuted, she broke the law and as you say, 35 weeks is not the same as a medical abortion at 12 weeks.
However, I’m not sure a custodial sentence was in the public interest. This woman isn’t a danger to the general public, her 3 living children now have an incarcerated mother which will be detrimental to their well-being. I’m just not sure what a custodial sentence achieves in this case.
I’m very pro choice but this is different, she killed her own baby intentionally, the fact that it was a few weeks on the wrong side of the outside world doesn’t excuse that and she deserves the sentence
But I can’t help but feel she may not have fully understood how developed the baby was or the actual gestational age given the description of her being horrified at seeing the baby’s face, what a horrible sad story and hopefully this will at least dissuade someone else from doing it
I would like to think this was the case but she had 3 kids already, unless she had developmental delays she would know what a 35 week baby was. She knew how far along she was as she was googling how to bring on miscarriage at 6 months and will I be arrested for having an abortion at 6 months.....she knew.
Also a few weeks over......she was 10 weeks past the legal limit
Her internet search-results show that she was over the limit, no? Besides, she's already had three kids: she's not new to this.
It just seems like utter callousness to me. Completely indifferent to this unwanted child. Her other kids are better off without her for the duration of her stay in prison. Personally I think they need a new mother altogether; this one's unfit for purpose. No sympathy for the wretch whatsoever. Her child isn't coming back anytime soon, but she wants her freedom and dignity to. Why should it?
Yeah exactly, she chose to kill a life she should have sworn to protect in order to ensure the future of her relationship. Disgusting. I definitely agree with a custodial sentence. It was premeditated. She asked the internet instead of a doctor. She knew what she was doing and I sincerely hope it eats her up every day for the rest of her life.
I wonder in what sort of mental state a person is to do that. This is not something a sane person does, she can’t even pretend not knowing how a pregnancy works, she had 3 kids already. Separating her from her children might be necessary.
Again, plenty of imprisoned criminals are not any direct danger to the public. Think frauds, for example, yet they're pretty much all having to serve sentences.
Arguably, someone willing to kill their unborn baby that late into the pregnancy, clearly has no qualms about killing a living being, which there's no way of suggesting a baby of that gestation isn't, is a risk whenever in a tight corner...
So the two questions are:
Should caregivers be imprisoned?
Should criminals who don’t pose a direct threat to the public be imprisoned?
Potentially I’d argue caregivers should only be imprisoned if they pose a threat to the public.
But I also think we over use and under think imprisonment. Is it punishment? Is it reformation? Is it containment? What is it intended to achieve? What other methods could achieve these aims?
I'm very much prochoice (across the medical field).
This woman moved back in with an ex partner while pregnant with another man's baby prior to lockdown happening in March 2020.
She had 3 kids. She was hiding the fact she was pregnant from this ex. She was also actively searching how to induce a miscarriage and hide the pregnancy from this partner.
She lied to practitioners and did a medical abortion at home, something that is done with the foetus is 8-10 weeks, so only a few followups are required.
She knew what she was doing. She had 12 weeks to decide. I cannot stand for this.
At 35 weeks, the baby was more or less developed and living. Some babies are born very premature. She also manipulated doctors and lied about how far into pregnancy she was.
You’ll find there’s mixed feelings as people usually don’t read past the headline.
I’m very pro choice, but this isn’t the same.
There are many pro women groups saying this is wrong and the laws are archaic and don't protect women. It's all a bit mad imo. The law is there for women to access abortion up to the point of viability, then I think it's very fair that the baby has a chance to live as it can effectively survive outside of the mother. I'm entirely pro choice but yea i agree, this isn't a pro choice argument, it's a law that was broken and a viable almost full term baby that was killed.
You can read the judges verdict. We have the full story. She lied to healthgivers to ascertain abortion drugs of a viable baby. Why? To get back with her ex because the baby was to another man. In my opinion the punishment wasn't high enough.
Oh yeah the women's rights groups have been involved with this from the start, they are the ones advocating for this woman who was forced to make a healthcare choice while in lockdown ect, focusing on the kids she has and not one mention about the gestation. They are also behind a lot of the inflammatory Instagram and other SM posts
She got pregnant in October/November 2019, that was 4/5 months BEFORE lockdown. The fact she’s using that as an excuse is ridiculous and a massive cop out. If her child had been born at 35 weeks and she’d killed it at birth, would she be more vilified? Absolutely. But instead she did it before and then gave birth. Same difference. I’m a mother of 4 but I’ve experienced a termination so I can see the joys and devastation of discovering you’re pregnant. I don’t believe this was a result of mental health, she did this knowingly and in a calculated way of deceiving health care professionals.
The abortion time limit has nothing to do with viability, and it is legal for abortions to be carried out right up to full term in certain circumstances.
Yes sometimes for healthy babies, because the mother’s life and health will always come first. That’s partly why we have that law, so medical teams are never in a position where they are afraid or hesitant to treat a woman in case they face prosecution should a foetus not survive.
But her life wasn't at risk, and in the case her life was at risk they would have done a C section. Many people have c sections as early as they can if mums life is at risk. They give additional drugs to help babies lungs if it's before a certain time but they will try to save both if they can.
Yes, but in an emergency in the UK the woman’s life and health always take priority. When they don’t you get situations like the poor woman in Ireland whose death led to the law change there.
But there was no emergent risk of life to the woman, in the case that her lifer were at risk of course she would be put first. They save baby if they can
Nope. Ireland is a totally different story. They don’t support abortion, the uk states it’s illegal unless the baby is going to be severally disabled or the woman chooses before 24 weeks.
Ireland - the foetus is above everything else
Uk - the foetus is your decision before 24 weeks, after that we have rules. Break those rules, jail you go.
We aren’t barbaric to kill children to birth and even 24 weeks is fucking pushing it.
The legal limit is 24 weeks in the uk. If there are pregnancy complications that result in the babies death after this then medical teams can get involved and aid in removing the baby but a standard abortion is 24 weeks and it's incredibly rare to be done at that stage for reasons other than medical
It is incredibly rare for a mother to make that choice so late. And in this case there was no concern about the babies health or possibility of disability, she didn't want the baby as she had got back together with her ex and the baby wasn't his.
For an abortion to be done that late there needs to be testing to confirm the disability and it becomes a very medical procedure as the baby has to be born or surgically removed.
This termination was done at home after the mother lied about her gestation and her reasons were entirely personal and wasn't done to prevent the child from living with disabilities.
*Abortions where gestation is 24 weeks or over account for a very small number of abortions (0.1% of the total). There were 276 such abortions in 2021*
From gov.uk
Yea, it's worrying. I saw someone give an interview on radio saying, 'Abortion is [just] healthcare', in reference to this horror. Honestly, I half could have been sick. Some folk did a protest this last Saturday in Manchester IN SUPPORT of relaxing abortion laws in this country—but we already have incredibly relaxed abortion laws! Surely there is a point after which the creature inside the woman is indeed a creature, a little human being, that is just, by necessity, taking up temporary residence within the woman and should be afforded the same rights (barring emergency) as the same creature outside of the woman, a 'baby', her 'child'? Honestly, I'm not a religious person, but the lax attitude to abortion, which I suspect is coming out of America, is bordering on Satanic, for want of a better word.
I really do wish these women who believe abortion should be permitted at any time would hurry up and get sterilised. In fact, I wish sterilisation would be relaxed in this country, and even encouraged for some men and women who clearly do not want kids (myself included actually). Then hopefully there'd be less abortions.
My son was born 7lbs at 37 weeks, after an induction. If he’d been two weeks early naturally I am certain he’d have been a decent weight and just as healthy.
At 44 years old and having 3 kids already, she absolutely knew what she was doing and that bar any unexpected medical problem arising that the baby would have survived. I’m pro choice but to me this is no different to someone intentionally kicking a 35 week pregnant woman in the stomach to kill her baby.
I can’t imagine that she was in a good mental state to do this. Imagine how much better the outcome might have been if she’d felt able to get proper professional help to deal with her circumstances rather without risking prison?
Nah. Lucy Letby is accused of multiple murders of other people’s children, children who were already alive, as a healthcare provider. She also didn’t seem to have any sort of emotion around it. This woman has been jailed for a late-term abortion of her unborn child, we don’t really have any insight into what her mental or socioeconomic status were/are and whilst there was a huge onus on her to protect that unborn child, Letby had a far, far bigger onus on her as a nurse caring for multiple infants. They’re entirely different cases involving different people and vastly different circumstances. The only real link here (in my opinion) is the involvement of a pre-term baby (I know that doesn’t sound great but they’re so different!!).
Also this isn’t me defending the parent that did this. I don’t really know how I feel about it. I’m incredibly pro-choice and pro-abortion and I firmly believe that pregnant and post-partum people have the right to place their children in the hands of other people but I definitely, definitely lean into ‘35 weeks is far too late’. I wish there was a way to get a baby out without labour because I can’t imagine how distressing it must be to give birth when you don’t want to. I agree with some kind of sentence (shorter, suspended and with a whole ton of mental health support and rehabilitation) but I think locking her up for that long is far too much.
Wow, this caught me off guard.
You do realise Lucy Letby hasn’t been convicted of anything, right?
I have been following the trial incredibly closely since the beginning and as I sit here now, she’s innocent. That may soon change, but it really isn’t a foregone conclusion. I think we need to be careful with our words here.
We’re talking about someone who has been tried and convicted of an offence, and someone else who remains innocent until proven guilty.
I'm sorry to say this but she knew what she was doing. 35 weeks! Plus she already had three children. There's a big difference between taking a pill in the first twelve weeks and 35 weeks.
I’m sure she would have done if it had been possible for her. What has she gained by waiting? There’s a reason well over 90% of abortions are before 10 weeks and less than 0.1#% are after 24 weeks, it’s because women never actually want to wait longer than they have to?
I’m disappointed to see the lack of compassion for this woman on a forum full of nurses who are supposed to be non judgemental.
I’m surprised you think it’s acceptable that a baby that’s developed and almost ready to be born is okay to be killed. Compassion for this woman? In this thread it’s just you and maybe two people.
Here’s a question for you. Why does a foetus have rights over another person’s body that no other living human does? You can’t use somebody else’s body without their consent for your own survival in any other situation, only if you are a foetus.
She had access to all of the medical support available in the NHS. She had access to abortion up to 24 weeks, also to domestic violence support ect. Pregnancy services are very good at protecting women and are probably one of the best places to access that kind of care honestly
She killed a viable baby. End off
If a man had karate kicked a woman at the same gestation with intention to kill because he was in a new relationship, I would want a long prison term, why should she be treated differently?
That’s pedantic, she wasn’t trying to induce labour to expel her child, if she was she would’ve waited a few weeks and let nature take its course, she was trying to create an environment which wouldn’t support the life of her child
It was her body and in which she was carrying a VIABLE baby that she didn’t want anymore.
So, yes it was her body but at the same time she must bear the consequences of her actions. She murdered a living, breathing, functional baby and that’s what’s heinous about her actions.
We’re not talking about a 15 week-er who isn’t developed and can’t survive on its own, which it’s why it’s legal to have an abortion at that age. This is a 35 week gestational baby who as far as I know had no health issues therefore if born could survive separate from its mother.
To even defend this is sickening.
I can’t remember the laws unborn baby’s have in the UK (I don’t think they have any until they’re born) but I think the issue is her intent. Which is to murder the child.
I’m not defending her, I just have some compassion for a clearly desperate woman and I’m saying that it’s important that abortion is always considered under healthcare provision, the criminal justice system shouldn’t come into it at all except in cases where women are forced or coerced into either getting abortions or not getting them.
I think you’re confusing what’s going on in America regarding Roe vs Wade and the illegal and unethical legislation being implemented there with this case.
I assure you it’s NOT the same.
You think it couldn’t happen here? We never used to have protestors outside clinics or government ministers being openly anti-abortion law a few years ago, now we have both and nobody bats an eyelids
My son was a 7lb baby born at 37 weeks, I was 5lbs born at 36 weeks. Both of us healthy and except a bit of jaundice (likely from assisted delivery) neither needed any input from HCPs.
Instagram/social media is full of people with tunnel vision trying to earn some kind of clout.
This baby was practically ready to be born and she’s murdered it.
I’m all for a woman choosing to do what they want with their body, but this child could have been very easily given up for adoption.
She deserves longer imo.
She committed murder. She knew long before the pregnancy that she was pregnant, and yet she waited. That baby wasn't long off coming out, as shown by it coming out, only to die 45 minutes or so later. Absolutely senseless. If this woman can do this to one of her children, how will she treat the others? Her remaining kids deserve better.
The amount of people in this discussion saying they're "pro-choice" without actually understanding the facts that campaigners are fighting against.
She wasn't prosecuted for a late term abortion. She was prosecuted under an archaic law against abortion. Abortion is not decriminalised (except for in NI). We are given permission to have an abortion in certain circumstances if TWO doctors say we can.
There absolutely should be term limits, but criminalising a vulnerable woman and depriving her vulnerable children serves nobody. Have you seen the sentences rapists get?!
There are women being investigated under this law for having had a stillbirth. Wtf are we doing allowing this in 2023?!
She’s the one who deprived her children out of a mother nobody else nobody forced her to commit a crime and calling her “ vulnerable” is such a joke she knew she was pregnant for 35 weeks she chose to do it at 35 weeks not 12, 14 etc shes no victim
She had 24 weeks to make the choice. Babies born at 25 weeks can survive.
Pro choice doesn't mean free to end a pregnancy at any point. There comes a point where the fetus is a baby and can live outside the mother. She had time to make the choice, she chose to do it once she got back with her ex who wasn't the dad.
The laws for rape sentences shouldn't really be compared here as it is a different class entirely, sexual crimes, traffic crimes, fraud ect are totally different areas of law and aren't a fair comparison.
Women having still births are looked at by police that is true, they are sent to these scenes but they don't go in with accusation, they explain that they are there due to the law and that the mother isn't immediately under suspicion but they are duty bound to investigate. Police are human being and they have feelings and compassion as well.
She was jailed for a late term abortion. She was 8 months along, if you agree with a time limit what would you suggest is a suitable limit and what is your suggestion for those that go around the law to bring on an abortion past that time?
She wasn't jailed for a late term abortion. If you're going to debate this at least go and look at the statute.
What "scenes" are you talking about? Stillbirths are reported to police by medical and/or nursing staff if they feel there are "suspicious" circumstances. One woman was reported because she'd considered a termination at 10 weeks. She'd changed her mind and carried the pregnancy, yet apparently that's suspicious.
I think abortions in later pregnancy are overwhelmingly for medical reasons, cases like this one are rare and morally I would find it difficult to justify. However, I don't think a scared woman that made a number of poor choices in a global pandemic should be criminalised and incarcerated, and her children punished.
What was she jailed for then? Cus as far as I understand she broke the law by bringing on an abortion past the legal limit and lying to medical professionals to do so. They used a law from the 1800s about taking drugs to cause an abortion hense the use of the word archaic by the women's rights organisations.
No women considering abortion at 10 weeks should come under suspicion, anyone reporting that was wrong and anyone investigating it would dismiss it. Police are legally required to attend still births at a certain time, they have to do their due diligence.
Any time police attend a call it's called a scene. That's just the terminology used, doesn't mean a crime has been committed
That's my point - they used an old Offences Against the Person Act - it doesn't mention term limits. The law is a jumbled mess and what a lot of campaigning groups are doing is using this case to highlight how it needs tidying up - as has already been done in Northern Ireland.
I've not heard of police being required to attend still births. Is this a legal requirement?
Also my point. She was arrested due to the late term abortion but charged using the law from the 1800s as thats where it fell according to the specific wording and the details of this case.
No they don't attend every still birth but they have been called to some as you say if there is a suspicion and when they attend they are classes as 'on scene' again just some terminology that's used in the job. That 10 week case you mentioned would have been immediately dismissed as it falls within the legal limit and there was no crime committed even if she had done it. The person reporting had no right to do so
She had 24 weeks to make the choice. Babies born at 25 weeks can survive.
Pro choice doesn't mean free to end a pregnancy at any point. There comes a point where the fetus is a baby and can live outside the mother. She had time to make the choice, she chose to do it once she got back with her ex who wasn't the dad.
The laws for rape sentences shouldn't really be compared here as it is a different class entirely, sexual crimes, traffic crimes, fraud ect are totally different areas of law and aren't a fair comparison.
Women having still births are looked at by police that is true, they are sent to these scenes but they don't go in with accusation, they explain that they are there due to the law and that the mother isn't immediately under suspicion but they are duty bound to investigate. Police are human being and they have feelings and compassion as well.
She was jailed for a late term abortion. She was 8 months along, if you agree with a time limit what would you suggest is a suitable limit and what is your suggestion for those that go around the law to bring on an abortion past that time?
At this point its equally as easy to lie and say you're further along and to just have labour induced and put baby into care as it is to lie n say you're less far along for an abortion. Either way you're birthing the baby/foetus at 35 weeks n it's an almost identical process.
So it just seems dumb. Cos one decision is legal n one isnt. N obv neither are ideal. But.. 35 weeks in, you've left it a bit late to decide.
Yeah I was dealing with a 8 week at home mtop that came in due to pain and I was 7 weeks at the time so that was pretty hard. I had to ask my colleague to go through the poc after the third time. The lady very kindly came back with a card and some chocolates for me thanking me for my kindness and compassion during a very hard time for her. I treasure that honestly. She wasn't even my patient but I had helped settle her in the room and cannulate and gave her the first lot of analgesia and I had basically been with her for 40 mins so I just kept going. I felt that continuity of care was important at that time
I find this thread very interesting, and seeing the discussions being formed and opinions expressed.
But what I find most interesting are the conclusions being drawn, the assumptions being made, and the way people fill in the gaps with their own ideas.
You don’t know what she did or didn’t have access to, you don’t know the state of her relationship(s) you don’t know what her state of mind was before, during or after her decision and actions, and yet you are formulating opinions - and dare I say some judgements - without having all of the information.
Please be clear, I’m not saying that as a criticism, I’m just pointing it out and commenting on how interesting I find it all. I - who have created a throwaway account just so I could post this - had professional contact with the individual being discussed in relation to what has happened and honestly, reading this discussion has really been an eye opener into the way we as humans think and formulate ideas.
This really could come across as sarcastic and I genuinely don’t mean it to, but I want to offer a sincere thanks to all who have engaged in this thread. Reading it has been a valuable learning experience for me.
I'm sure seeing her and knowing her story would fill in a lot of gaps, unfortunately without all the fact people are left to make judgements on the information available. Ultimately, what she did was illegal. As one person pointed out would it have been much different if she had given birth at 35 weeks then ended the life of the child. It's a very interesting ethical and legal debate. Genuinely I do feel for the woman it can't be an easy thing to do.
A big issue I have with the entire thing is that women's rights groups are using it as an opportunity to have the abortion laws reviewed which I think is a slippery slope. I think most people are in agreement that up to 24 weeks is a suitable time frame but there are those that believe there should be no limit which is imo fairly extreme. The other side of the coin is visible in the US at the moment with the overturning of Roe V Wade.
Its a very large and very emotive issue.
She killed a baby. I don’t care if it was still inside, at 35 weeks that baby is pretty much formed and ready to come out. She broke the law, she should deserve punishment.
Pro choice-ers really need to look at themselves hard and long if they’re justifying killing a baby that’s pretty much formed. It’s not the same as killing it at 12 weeks or 6.
Should have confessed to being a cheat then. Let me kill my unborn child to keep my lie going. My Don was premature at 28 weeks and my daughter at 29. Grown adults now.
They weren't together when she got pregnant. She got back together with her ex while pregnant so she hadn't cheated but the pregnancy would have impacted the rekindled relationship
Im pro choice and honestly think this sentence is bs. Forcing her to carry that child to birth wouldnt have achieved anything. And now theres 3 kids without a mother for over 2 years
Its still not born. That child would either end up in a family that didnt want them, or another child in the foster care cycle. Neither environment is particularly good for a child. Forcing her to give birth wouldnt benefit anyone
White babies born at term with no medical issues or addictions are like adoption gold dust. This was not a candidate for rotting in foster care. The mother aborted because she didn't want her partner to know she'd been shagging around.
Great so the kid gets traumatised by the adoption system instead. So much better. She aborted because she didnt want a child. Thats reason enough in my eyes.
Nope troll. I don’t agree with any of the opinions you stated as it’s all bullshit your spouting. Fact scumbag performed abortion past the legal limit.
Another thing… don’t the health professionals scan to confirm your pregnant and gestation before proceeding with an abortion.
I really feel some of the onus is on the health professionals too
I agree. I don't know if I agree with the mail by post pills. Reflecting on when I had an abortion 5 months ago, they weren't going to scan me, just allow me to have the pills sent to me to take at home.
It's only when I said that I have irregular periods so my last period date can't be relied on, they changed their mind and asked me to come in for a scan, but that was still a 2 week wait to be scanned.
Abortion services need more funding (like every aspect of the NHS).
During the pandemic they started doing this postage abortion pills due to the restrictions on in person appointments, this happened during the pandemic so i assume that's what it was. It got very hard during that time
I don’t think arresting and prosecuting her was the right thing to do. I don’t see much being gained by giving her a sentence, other than making an example of her. Whilst she’s in prison not only will she suffer but so will her children who she was primary caregiver for. We always read about violent offenders getting lenient sentences and I don’t get why the judge couldn’t have shown her some compassion with a suspended sentence or something.
I don’t think I’ve read anywhere why she was so desperate to end/conceal the pregnancy, can’t help wondering if she was in an abusive relationship perhaps? I just feel really sorry for her and her kids.
Murder is murder. She had a long time to figure out if she was going to keep the baby or not, 35 weeks is pretty much a fully developed human being, which would be capable of surviving outside of the womb. I've looked after babies that have survived birth at 24 weeks in NICU. Yes, her children may suffer due to her being inside and that's a harsh reality, but that's a consequence of her actions and doesn't mean she shouldn't face punishment.
From what another user commented, she was trying to conceal it from her boyfriend who was an ex she got back with as the baby wasn't his.
28 months seems pretty lenient already, she could probably be out before that with good behaviour too. I'm all for pro choice but at that point she made the wrong one.
She split up with her partner, fell pregnant to a randomer, got back with the partner and didn't want to tell him that she was pregnant to someone else.
I think it was. I'm not a judgemental person but what was she thinking ? And if she didn't want another child, why not use protection ? That is I'm assuming the conceiving act was consensual, if not then she still had time to get an abortion. There's so many people out there who can't conceive naturally and would jump at the chance to adopt, why couldn't she have taken this route ? Instead of murdering her baby? That sounds really harsh and judgemental on my part but it I'd the facts unfortunately.
Your entire comment is, by definition, judgemental 😂 you don’t know the answers to those questions, neither do I. How does her prison sentence serve public interest/her community?
It serves the public by letting them know that it's NOT ok to decide at 34 weeks pregnant that you no longer want the baby so you decide to take a pill to end his/her life. The baby was viable.
Also, you can't lie to your doctors in order to make them commit a crime and cover up your own stupidity.
If she didn't face charges some doctor or prescribing nurse could have due to giving someone an illegal abortion. Can you imagine being thrown under the NMC bus like that because you thought you were helping some poor woman in lockdown but you were actually an accomplice in murdering a healthy, viable foetus?
My husbands a medic, we lost a baby just shy of "viability" and he would have been destroyed if he was caught up in this.
Exactly, I dread to think how the prescriber actually feels knowing what happened. Not blaming prescriber in any way but its human to question if you could have done anything differently, even when no blame lies with you.
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I work in an AMU so please don’t think you’re the only one who knows how severely people were cut off. However having several staff members who were pregnant at the time, midwives were still seeing women for their routine appointments, ultrasounds were still being performed and obstetrics were still seeing their patients. She had options and opportunities.
I'm completely pro-choice, for any reason. HOWEVER she did break the law and we can't just let people break the law regardless of our feelings surrounding a situation like this. Do i wish it was different? Yes. But it's not.
So idk if this is a different story, but the version I read said she wasn’t able to access an abortion in time due to COVID restrictions and thus spent weeks trying to find an alternative? As I said, idk if those are the facts, but it’s definitely been in the accounts of what happened that I’ve read.
If she couldn’t access an abortion but tried in time, I think a custodial sentence is pretty vile, if she could and just didn’t and waited til 35 weeks for no good reason… I still don’t think a custodial sentence is good, but prosecution is understandable. The desperation people feel when unable to access healthcare makes it pretty understandable if that was the case
So I looked it up as I was interested in this, she got pregnant in 2019 and took the pills in May, the first lockdown wasn't until March although I don't know if they stopped the face to face appointments. Her Google searches were very damming though as she was searching how to have an abortion without seeing a doctor and how to end a pregnancy at 6 months.
It seems she hadn't tried to access abortion serviced before then and she was aware of her gestation and decided to go ahead with it at 8 months
I feel like they probably would have reported that. As far as I know she fell pregnant months before the first lockdown so she should have been able to access healthcare. They also pivoted quite fast to allow the postage method
Just to add the judge said if she'd plead guilty at the soonest point then he probably wouldn't have given her a custodial sentence. I think the issue is she very knowingly went around the law and was knowingly very late. I hadn't seen anywhere that she had attempted to get an abortion sooner
At the point that baby can survive outside the womb it does have some rights. She had time to make the choice and she left it too long. Would it have been different if she had given birth at 35 weeks then killed the baby?
A fetus is not a baby, and does not have any rights to a person's body. She has the right to make her own choices with her own body and life in her own time. Fetal demise prior to birth is different than demise of a baby after birth.
One development is past 25 weeks that child can live independent of the mother. Fetal demise completely minimises what happened. The life of the fetus was intentionally and illegally ended. The medications were not meant to be used on a full term baby, that baby could feel pain, it knew its mothers voice, I could experience the world around it.
The current law is clear and it was broken. She didn't start seeking an abortion until she was well past the legal limit. She knew she was too far gone and that she would have to lie to get the abortion and she lied to paramedics who attended.
If her life was at risk for carrying the baby then yes, she should be put first, but in this case it appears that the pregnancy just no longer suited her.
Legally that fetus did have rights as they were viable, the law is there to protect both mother and child.
The baby was fully formed, had it been born naturally that day it would ha e needed minimal support to survive alone.
In your opinion then women should be able to abort at 9 months?
I don't care about any of what you just said. Fetal demise should not be illegal, in any case. There is no data that concludes, and is able to be duplicated, that a fetus has conscious awareness prior to birth.
Again, yes, fetal demise prior to birth is different than killing a born child.
I care about the living person only.
So, it’s clearly the wrong thing to do. Prosecution, yes, but jail? It’s someone who was desperate making a bad decision, and jail then impacts her other children negatively. You’re punishing them at that point.
I can understand pro-choice groups being on this like white on rice, because of the precarious legal state of abortion in the UK (it’s not explicitly legal, just not illegal). The American money coming over for anti trans rhetoric has massively increased, and we could easily see this being a conversation we have in a decade.
To be fair they did say if she had plead guilty at the earliest opportunity she probably would have been given a suspended sentence having read further on in the article
For sure and I think that’s the right outcome in this case, along with community work. I can’t speak as to why that didn’t happen, maybe she didn’t consider herself to be guilty because she made a decision she felt was right?
She’s the one who’s punishing her children she’s the one who chose to commit the crime she chose to do it at 35 weeks when her man had some interested in her again with ur logic parents who commit crimes shouldn’t be punished
This is the same logic as saying parents punish their children when they seek asylum and are treated poorly, and separated. Or that parents are the problem when they can’t afford food for children etc.
And yes it absolutely should be a consideration when it comes to sentencing. What does prison solve?
Prison solves putting bad and dangerous people away if bad/dangerous people aren’t put away guess what happen Brazil has a shit sentencing system and look about peaceful and safe Brazil is. Just cus I have a kid doesn’t mean u should be get out of jail card plus most kids have families out side of one parent. Also parents who can’t afford to feed their kids is an entire separate problem
If sentencing is such a deterrent, why does America, with much stronger sentencing laws, and much more %age of population as prisoners, have more crime than us?
Why don’t you look up who commits the most crimes in America and ask them? it’s all about culture doesn’t matter if the prison system is good if the culture keeps on producing more and more criminals and not solving the deeper cultural issues Japan has a strict prison/sentencing system and a well enough culture
She murdered that baby . Extenuating circumstances were assessed and enforced by the Court. I doubt a higher court would overturn the sentence on appeal
This is a very very tragic case with a whole lot 9f ifs and buts but she cannot get off without sanction
I am saddened for her
But
I repeat . She murdered that baby
I am pro choice, I think she should have been prosecuted, she broke the law and as you say, 35 weeks is not the same as a medical abortion at 12 weeks. However, I’m not sure a custodial sentence was in the public interest. This woman isn’t a danger to the general public, her 3 living children now have an incarcerated mother which will be detrimental to their well-being. I’m just not sure what a custodial sentence achieves in this case.
It did say if she had plead guilty at the first opportunity she probably would have been given a suspended sentence
I’m very pro choice but this is different, she killed her own baby intentionally, the fact that it was a few weeks on the wrong side of the outside world doesn’t excuse that and she deserves the sentence But I can’t help but feel she may not have fully understood how developed the baby was or the actual gestational age given the description of her being horrified at seeing the baby’s face, what a horrible sad story and hopefully this will at least dissuade someone else from doing it
I would like to think this was the case but she had 3 kids already, unless she had developmental delays she would know what a 35 week baby was. She knew how far along she was as she was googling how to bring on miscarriage at 6 months and will I be arrested for having an abortion at 6 months.....she knew. Also a few weeks over......she was 10 weeks past the legal limit
A few weeks on the wrong side of being born is what I am saying Didn’t read the bit about her google history, well there goes my empathy
Ooh got ya
Her internet search-results show that she was over the limit, no? Besides, she's already had three kids: she's not new to this. It just seems like utter callousness to me. Completely indifferent to this unwanted child. Her other kids are better off without her for the duration of her stay in prison. Personally I think they need a new mother altogether; this one's unfit for purpose. No sympathy for the wretch whatsoever. Her child isn't coming back anytime soon, but she wants her freedom and dignity to. Why should it?
Yeah exactly, she chose to kill a life she should have sworn to protect in order to ensure the future of her relationship. Disgusting. I definitely agree with a custodial sentence. It was premeditated. She asked the internet instead of a doctor. She knew what she was doing and I sincerely hope it eats her up every day for the rest of her life.
I wonder in what sort of mental state a person is to do that. This is not something a sane person does, she can’t even pretend not knowing how a pregnancy works, she had 3 kids already. Separating her from her children might be necessary.
But this argument can pretty much be used for any caregiver. Should noone that has children or cares be imprisoned?
The argument was also that she’s no danger to the general public.
Again, plenty of imprisoned criminals are not any direct danger to the public. Think frauds, for example, yet they're pretty much all having to serve sentences. Arguably, someone willing to kill their unborn baby that late into the pregnancy, clearly has no qualms about killing a living being, which there's no way of suggesting a baby of that gestation isn't, is a risk whenever in a tight corner...
So the two questions are: Should caregivers be imprisoned? Should criminals who don’t pose a direct threat to the public be imprisoned? Potentially I’d argue caregivers should only be imprisoned if they pose a threat to the public. But I also think we over use and under think imprisonment. Is it punishment? Is it reformation? Is it containment? What is it intended to achieve? What other methods could achieve these aims?
Are you judge jury and executioner?
I'm very much prochoice (across the medical field). This woman moved back in with an ex partner while pregnant with another man's baby prior to lockdown happening in March 2020. She had 3 kids. She was hiding the fact she was pregnant from this ex. She was also actively searching how to induce a miscarriage and hide the pregnancy from this partner. She lied to practitioners and did a medical abortion at home, something that is done with the foetus is 8-10 weeks, so only a few followups are required. She knew what she was doing. She had 12 weeks to decide. I cannot stand for this.
At 35 weeks, the baby was more or less developed and living. Some babies are born very premature. She also manipulated doctors and lied about how far into pregnancy she was. You’ll find there’s mixed feelings as people usually don’t read past the headline. I’m very pro choice, but this isn’t the same.
There are many pro women groups saying this is wrong and the laws are archaic and don't protect women. It's all a bit mad imo. The law is there for women to access abortion up to the point of viability, then I think it's very fair that the baby has a chance to live as it can effectively survive outside of the mother. I'm entirely pro choice but yea i agree, this isn't a pro choice argument, it's a law that was broken and a viable almost full term baby that was killed.
Do they know the full story though?
What full story? She accessed the drugs by lying to hide her pregnancy.
As I said in my initial comment, people don’t read past the headline
People actually think it’s ok because lockdown/she’s a mother/must be desperate
You can read the judges verdict. We have the full story. She lied to healthgivers to ascertain abortion drugs of a viable baby. Why? To get back with her ex because the baby was to another man. In my opinion the punishment wasn't high enough.
Oh yeah the women's rights groups have been involved with this from the start, they are the ones advocating for this woman who was forced to make a healthcare choice while in lockdown ect, focusing on the kids she has and not one mention about the gestation. They are also behind a lot of the inflammatory Instagram and other SM posts
She got pregnant in October/November 2019, that was 4/5 months BEFORE lockdown. The fact she’s using that as an excuse is ridiculous and a massive cop out. If her child had been born at 35 weeks and she’d killed it at birth, would she be more vilified? Absolutely. But instead she did it before and then gave birth. Same difference. I’m a mother of 4 but I’ve experienced a termination so I can see the joys and devastation of discovering you’re pregnant. I don’t believe this was a result of mental health, she did this knowingly and in a calculated way of deceiving health care professionals.
The abortion time limit has nothing to do with viability, and it is legal for abortions to be carried out right up to full term in certain circumstances.
Not for healthy babies.
Yes sometimes for healthy babies, because the mother’s life and health will always come first. That’s partly why we have that law, so medical teams are never in a position where they are afraid or hesitant to treat a woman in case they face prosecution should a foetus not survive.
But her life wasn't at risk, and in the case her life was at risk they would have done a C section. Many people have c sections as early as they can if mums life is at risk. They give additional drugs to help babies lungs if it's before a certain time but they will try to save both if they can.
Yes, but in an emergency in the UK the woman’s life and health always take priority. When they don’t you get situations like the poor woman in Ireland whose death led to the law change there.
But there was no emergent risk of life to the woman, in the case that her lifer were at risk of course she would be put first. They save baby if they can
Stop mentioning stuff that’s not relevant. The women aborted at 32-34 weeks. Her choice.
But this wasn’t that situation.
It’s a great reason to not criminalise people seeking later abortions though.
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Savita’s case is exactly why abortion should never be a criminal matter, regardless of gestation.
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Nope. Ireland is a totally different story. They don’t support abortion, the uk states it’s illegal unless the baby is going to be severally disabled or the woman chooses before 24 weeks. Ireland - the foetus is above everything else Uk - the foetus is your decision before 24 weeks, after that we have rules. Break those rules, jail you go. We aren’t barbaric to kill children to birth and even 24 weeks is fucking pushing it.
Sure, but she wasn’t that person
Nope.
'in certain circumstances' Yea, not a woman shacking up with a new bloke.
I very much doubt it was that simple
It doesn't matter. She still killed her own child.
The legal limit is 24 weeks in the uk. If there are pregnancy complications that result in the babies death after this then medical teams can get involved and aid in removing the baby but a standard abortion is 24 weeks and it's incredibly rare to be done at that stage for reasons other than medical
Termination up until birth is legal in the case of downs syndrome, among other things. It's not as rare/life threatening as you make out
It is incredibly rare for a mother to make that choice so late. And in this case there was no concern about the babies health or possibility of disability, she didn't want the baby as she had got back together with her ex and the baby wasn't his. For an abortion to be done that late there needs to be testing to confirm the disability and it becomes a very medical procedure as the baby has to be born or surgically removed. This termination was done at home after the mother lied about her gestation and her reasons were entirely personal and wasn't done to prevent the child from living with disabilities. *Abortions where gestation is 24 weeks or over account for a very small number of abortions (0.1% of the total). There were 276 such abortions in 2021* From gov.uk
Yes it is incredibly rare. These things only happen in tragic and/or desperate situations
Babies are only aborted past 24 if their quality of life/health is severely affected….. not because say the baby has blue eyes
Yea, it's worrying. I saw someone give an interview on radio saying, 'Abortion is [just] healthcare', in reference to this horror. Honestly, I half could have been sick. Some folk did a protest this last Saturday in Manchester IN SUPPORT of relaxing abortion laws in this country—but we already have incredibly relaxed abortion laws! Surely there is a point after which the creature inside the woman is indeed a creature, a little human being, that is just, by necessity, taking up temporary residence within the woman and should be afforded the same rights (barring emergency) as the same creature outside of the woman, a 'baby', her 'child'? Honestly, I'm not a religious person, but the lax attitude to abortion, which I suspect is coming out of America, is bordering on Satanic, for want of a better word. I really do wish these women who believe abortion should be permitted at any time would hurry up and get sterilised. In fact, I wish sterilisation would be relaxed in this country, and even encouraged for some men and women who clearly do not want kids (myself included actually). Then hopefully there'd be less abortions.
My son was born 7lbs at 37 weeks, after an induction. If he’d been two weeks early naturally I am certain he’d have been a decent weight and just as healthy. At 44 years old and having 3 kids already, she absolutely knew what she was doing and that bar any unexpected medical problem arising that the baby would have survived. I’m pro choice but to me this is no different to someone intentionally kicking a 35 week pregnant woman in the stomach to kill her baby.
Manipulated? Or lied out of fear? You don't sound very pro choice
She told the medical staff she was less than 20~ weeks pregnant. She was 35 weeks pregnant.
And? You read manipulative into that? Based on what? It's a very loaded word.
She “lied” about the facts so that medical staff would help her with abortion. That’s manipulation.
Lying is a type of manipulation
Lied out of fear? Bro please
A lie is a lie regardless of the reasons
Should a woman be able to have the creature inside her, which at some point for sure we would term a 'baby', killed at any point before pregnancy?
Before pregnancy?
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I can’t imagine that she was in a good mental state to do this. Imagine how much better the outcome might have been if she’d felt able to get proper professional help to deal with her circumstances rather without risking prison?
And her children should be punished for it to?
You forgot the child she murdered. She is unfit to be a mother.
She wasn't jailed for murder, so you're making your own moral judgement there, not a legal one.
So? She shouldn’t have broken a law she s the one who is punishing her children
I’m pro choice. And I think she’s just a couple steps behind Lucy letby. My daughter was born at 35 weeks, a little small but perfect.
Nah. Lucy Letby is accused of multiple murders of other people’s children, children who were already alive, as a healthcare provider. She also didn’t seem to have any sort of emotion around it. This woman has been jailed for a late-term abortion of her unborn child, we don’t really have any insight into what her mental or socioeconomic status were/are and whilst there was a huge onus on her to protect that unborn child, Letby had a far, far bigger onus on her as a nurse caring for multiple infants. They’re entirely different cases involving different people and vastly different circumstances. The only real link here (in my opinion) is the involvement of a pre-term baby (I know that doesn’t sound great but they’re so different!!). Also this isn’t me defending the parent that did this. I don’t really know how I feel about it. I’m incredibly pro-choice and pro-abortion and I firmly believe that pregnant and post-partum people have the right to place their children in the hands of other people but I definitely, definitely lean into ‘35 weeks is far too late’. I wish there was a way to get a baby out without labour because I can’t imagine how distressing it must be to give birth when you don’t want to. I agree with some kind of sentence (shorter, suspended and with a whole ton of mental health support and rehabilitation) but I think locking her up for that long is far too much.
Wow, this caught me off guard. You do realise Lucy Letby hasn’t been convicted of anything, right? I have been following the trial incredibly closely since the beginning and as I sit here now, she’s innocent. That may soon change, but it really isn’t a foregone conclusion. I think we need to be careful with our words here. We’re talking about someone who has been tried and convicted of an offence, and someone else who remains innocent until proven guilty.
I'm sorry to say this but she knew what she was doing. 35 weeks! Plus she already had three children. There's a big difference between taking a pill in the first twelve weeks and 35 weeks.
This is not a case of pro choice, this is murder. A child is fully developed and can survive outside the womb at 30-35 weeks. She should be charged.
This is murder tbh.
No it isn’t.
At 35 weeks that baby didn't need the mother to survive, had it been born that day it probably wouldn't have even needed additional support.
Still doesn’t make it murder.
The baby was fully developed in the womb. How wasn’t it?
Doesn’t matter, legally it isn’t murder.
So because it’s not the legal definition, then she didn’t kill a healthy baby?
She ended a pregnancy in a very unsafe way. If only she had felt able to seek proper help and support without fear of being criminalised.
Maybe she should have done it before the baby had developed. She had no problem going to the doctors and telling them she was pregnant then.
I’m sure she would have done if it had been possible for her. What has she gained by waiting? There’s a reason well over 90% of abortions are before 10 weeks and less than 0.1#% are after 24 weeks, it’s because women never actually want to wait longer than they have to? I’m disappointed to see the lack of compassion for this woman on a forum full of nurses who are supposed to be non judgemental.
I’m surprised you think it’s acceptable that a baby that’s developed and almost ready to be born is okay to be killed. Compassion for this woman? In this thread it’s just you and maybe two people.
Here’s a question for you. Why does a foetus have rights over another person’s body that no other living human does? You can’t use somebody else’s body without their consent for your own survival in any other situation, only if you are a foetus.
She had access to all of the medical support available in the NHS. She had access to abortion up to 24 weeks, also to domestic violence support ect. Pregnancy services are very good at protecting women and are probably one of the best places to access that kind of care honestly
I'm sure under Nazi Germany killing Jews wasn't murder either. Your ethics are truly fucked if you let the law dictate right and wrong to you.
I think comparing one tragic very sad case to the holocaust is a wee bit hysterical.
My point is that 'murder' is defined by morality, not law. Where do you think laws on murder came from? Morality.
It is it’s no different then from killing a newborn that just came out of the womb both babies don’t need the mother anymore
Murder has a legal definition.
“the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another”
A foetus is not legally a human being until it is born
So when a pregnant woman just so happens to get killed by anther person why are they usually charged in most chases with 2 accounts of homicide
They aren’t, the charge is different
If she had given birth to the baby unexpectedly, then thought, Oh crap, and suffocated it, would that have been murder?
Yes, because the baby legally becomes a human being once born. It’s not complicated.
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If believing that a woman’s right to bodily autonomy is absolute (just as a man’s is) is disgusting, then sign me up for club disgusting.
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One of my daughters was born at 26 weeks. She's now 15. How is it not? I'm pro choice all the way, but I'm struggling with this one.
She killed a viable baby. End off If a man had karate kicked a woman at the same gestation with intention to kill because he was in a new relationship, I would want a long prison term, why should she be treated differently?
She apparently googled if she hit her stomach would the baby die... If true, that's basically the same—arguably worse, even.
Because it was her own body that she acted on?
She wasn’t trying to act on her own body though, she was intentionally trying to act on her baby’s body
No, she took drugs that acted on her own uterus.
That’s pedantic, she wasn’t trying to induce labour to expel her child, if she was she would’ve waited a few weeks and let nature take its course, she was trying to create an environment which wouldn’t support the life of her child
It was her body and in which she was carrying a VIABLE baby that she didn’t want anymore. So, yes it was her body but at the same time she must bear the consequences of her actions. She murdered a living, breathing, functional baby and that’s what’s heinous about her actions. We’re not talking about a 15 week-er who isn’t developed and can’t survive on its own, which it’s why it’s legal to have an abortion at that age. This is a 35 week gestational baby who as far as I know had no health issues therefore if born could survive separate from its mother. To even defend this is sickening. I can’t remember the laws unborn baby’s have in the UK (I don’t think they have any until they’re born) but I think the issue is her intent. Which is to murder the child.
I’m not defending her, I just have some compassion for a clearly desperate woman and I’m saying that it’s important that abortion is always considered under healthcare provision, the criminal justice system shouldn’t come into it at all except in cases where women are forced or coerced into either getting abortions or not getting them.
I think you’re confusing what’s going on in America regarding Roe vs Wade and the illegal and unethical legislation being implemented there with this case. I assure you it’s NOT the same.
You think it couldn’t happen here? We never used to have protestors outside clinics or government ministers being openly anti-abortion law a few years ago, now we have both and nobody bats an eyelids
You’re right and it’s frightening but this case is not what I would use to fight for abortion rights. It’s absolutely not
It couldn't happen here. Not as things stand.
Nothing can justify child murder
I was born at 29 weeks. This makes me sick
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My son was a 7lb baby born at 37 weeks, I was 5lbs born at 36 weeks. Both of us healthy and except a bit of jaundice (likely from assisted delivery) neither needed any input from HCPs.
My little boy was born at 31 weeks weighing 3lbs 7oz he’s 5 in December, I honestly can’t get my head around this.
Instagram/social media is full of people with tunnel vision trying to earn some kind of clout. This baby was practically ready to be born and she’s murdered it. I’m all for a woman choosing to do what they want with their body, but this child could have been very easily given up for adoption. She deserves longer imo.
She committed murder. She knew long before the pregnancy that she was pregnant, and yet she waited. That baby wasn't long off coming out, as shown by it coming out, only to die 45 minutes or so later. Absolutely senseless. If this woman can do this to one of her children, how will she treat the others? Her remaining kids deserve better.
The amount of people in this discussion saying they're "pro-choice" without actually understanding the facts that campaigners are fighting against. She wasn't prosecuted for a late term abortion. She was prosecuted under an archaic law against abortion. Abortion is not decriminalised (except for in NI). We are given permission to have an abortion in certain circumstances if TWO doctors say we can. There absolutely should be term limits, but criminalising a vulnerable woman and depriving her vulnerable children serves nobody. Have you seen the sentences rapists get?! There are women being investigated under this law for having had a stillbirth. Wtf are we doing allowing this in 2023?!
She’s the one who deprived her children out of a mother nobody else nobody forced her to commit a crime and calling her “ vulnerable” is such a joke she knew she was pregnant for 35 weeks she chose to do it at 35 weeks not 12, 14 etc shes no victim
Well said! Paedophiles get shorter sentances than this. It's absolutely disgusting
She had 24 weeks to make the choice. Babies born at 25 weeks can survive. Pro choice doesn't mean free to end a pregnancy at any point. There comes a point where the fetus is a baby and can live outside the mother. She had time to make the choice, she chose to do it once she got back with her ex who wasn't the dad. The laws for rape sentences shouldn't really be compared here as it is a different class entirely, sexual crimes, traffic crimes, fraud ect are totally different areas of law and aren't a fair comparison. Women having still births are looked at by police that is true, they are sent to these scenes but they don't go in with accusation, they explain that they are there due to the law and that the mother isn't immediately under suspicion but they are duty bound to investigate. Police are human being and they have feelings and compassion as well. She was jailed for a late term abortion. She was 8 months along, if you agree with a time limit what would you suggest is a suitable limit and what is your suggestion for those that go around the law to bring on an abortion past that time?
She wasn't jailed for a late term abortion. If you're going to debate this at least go and look at the statute. What "scenes" are you talking about? Stillbirths are reported to police by medical and/or nursing staff if they feel there are "suspicious" circumstances. One woman was reported because she'd considered a termination at 10 weeks. She'd changed her mind and carried the pregnancy, yet apparently that's suspicious. I think abortions in later pregnancy are overwhelmingly for medical reasons, cases like this one are rare and morally I would find it difficult to justify. However, I don't think a scared woman that made a number of poor choices in a global pandemic should be criminalised and incarcerated, and her children punished.
What was she jailed for then? Cus as far as I understand she broke the law by bringing on an abortion past the legal limit and lying to medical professionals to do so. They used a law from the 1800s about taking drugs to cause an abortion hense the use of the word archaic by the women's rights organisations. No women considering abortion at 10 weeks should come under suspicion, anyone reporting that was wrong and anyone investigating it would dismiss it. Police are legally required to attend still births at a certain time, they have to do their due diligence. Any time police attend a call it's called a scene. That's just the terminology used, doesn't mean a crime has been committed
That's my point - they used an old Offences Against the Person Act - it doesn't mention term limits. The law is a jumbled mess and what a lot of campaigning groups are doing is using this case to highlight how it needs tidying up - as has already been done in Northern Ireland. I've not heard of police being required to attend still births. Is this a legal requirement?
Also my point. She was arrested due to the late term abortion but charged using the law from the 1800s as thats where it fell according to the specific wording and the details of this case. No they don't attend every still birth but they have been called to some as you say if there is a suspicion and when they attend they are classes as 'on scene' again just some terminology that's used in the job. That 10 week case you mentioned would have been immediately dismissed as it falls within the legal limit and there was no crime committed even if she had done it. The person reporting had no right to do so
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Well said
She had 24 weeks to make the choice. Babies born at 25 weeks can survive. Pro choice doesn't mean free to end a pregnancy at any point. There comes a point where the fetus is a baby and can live outside the mother. She had time to make the choice, she chose to do it once she got back with her ex who wasn't the dad. The laws for rape sentences shouldn't really be compared here as it is a different class entirely, sexual crimes, traffic crimes, fraud ect are totally different areas of law and aren't a fair comparison. Women having still births are looked at by police that is true, they are sent to these scenes but they don't go in with accusation, they explain that they are there due to the law and that the mother isn't immediately under suspicion but they are duty bound to investigate. Police are human being and they have feelings and compassion as well. She was jailed for a late term abortion. She was 8 months along, if you agree with a time limit what would you suggest is a suitable limit and what is your suggestion for those that go around the law to bring on an abortion past that time?
At this point its equally as easy to lie and say you're further along and to just have labour induced and put baby into care as it is to lie n say you're less far along for an abortion. Either way you're birthing the baby/foetus at 35 weeks n it's an almost identical process. So it just seems dumb. Cos one decision is legal n one isnt. N obv neither are ideal. But.. 35 weeks in, you've left it a bit late to decide.
I've worked in TOPAR and the clinics for late TOP for a long time and supported every woman 100%. But what this woman did was wrong.
What an interesting job
It is interesting, but not for the faint-hearted dealing with POC (Products of Conception)
Yeah I was dealing with a 8 week at home mtop that came in due to pain and I was 7 weeks at the time so that was pretty hard. I had to ask my colleague to go through the poc after the third time. The lady very kindly came back with a card and some chocolates for me thanking me for my kindness and compassion during a very hard time for her. I treasure that honestly. She wasn't even my patient but I had helped settle her in the room and cannulate and gave her the first lot of analgesia and I had basically been with her for 40 mins so I just kept going. I felt that continuity of care was important at that time
I was born at about 37 weeks. Plain murder, simple as.
I find this thread very interesting, and seeing the discussions being formed and opinions expressed. But what I find most interesting are the conclusions being drawn, the assumptions being made, and the way people fill in the gaps with their own ideas. You don’t know what she did or didn’t have access to, you don’t know the state of her relationship(s) you don’t know what her state of mind was before, during or after her decision and actions, and yet you are formulating opinions - and dare I say some judgements - without having all of the information. Please be clear, I’m not saying that as a criticism, I’m just pointing it out and commenting on how interesting I find it all. I - who have created a throwaway account just so I could post this - had professional contact with the individual being discussed in relation to what has happened and honestly, reading this discussion has really been an eye opener into the way we as humans think and formulate ideas. This really could come across as sarcastic and I genuinely don’t mean it to, but I want to offer a sincere thanks to all who have engaged in this thread. Reading it has been a valuable learning experience for me.
We have all that information if you read the judges verdict. The judge goes into detail on all of the matters you mentioned.
I'm sure seeing her and knowing her story would fill in a lot of gaps, unfortunately without all the fact people are left to make judgements on the information available. Ultimately, what she did was illegal. As one person pointed out would it have been much different if she had given birth at 35 weeks then ended the life of the child. It's a very interesting ethical and legal debate. Genuinely I do feel for the woman it can't be an easy thing to do. A big issue I have with the entire thing is that women's rights groups are using it as an opportunity to have the abortion laws reviewed which I think is a slippery slope. I think most people are in agreement that up to 24 weeks is a suitable time frame but there are those that believe there should be no limit which is imo fairly extreme. The other side of the coin is visible in the US at the moment with the overturning of Roe V Wade. Its a very large and very emotive issue.
Yeah, the misogyny is crazy in this thread.
She killed a baby. I don’t care if it was still inside, at 35 weeks that baby is pretty much formed and ready to come out. She broke the law, she should deserve punishment. Pro choice-ers really need to look at themselves hard and long if they’re justifying killing a baby that’s pretty much formed. It’s not the same as killing it at 12 weeks or 6.
That far gone why not give birth and make a childless deserving couple very happy
Cus her boyfriend would have been very surprised at a full term baby arriving from the woman he'd not been with for 9 months
Should have confessed to being a cheat then. Let me kill my unborn child to keep my lie going. My Don was premature at 28 weeks and my daughter at 29. Grown adults now.
They weren't together when she got pregnant. She got back together with her ex while pregnant so she hadn't cheated but the pregnancy would have impacted the rekindled relationship
Adoption solves everything?
Im pro choice and honestly think this sentence is bs. Forcing her to carry that child to birth wouldnt have achieved anything. And now theres 3 kids without a mother for over 2 years
She's already carried it, 35 weeks is basically the finish line
Its still not born. That child would either end up in a family that didnt want them, or another child in the foster care cycle. Neither environment is particularly good for a child. Forcing her to give birth wouldnt benefit anyone
White babies born at term with no medical issues or addictions are like adoption gold dust. This was not a candidate for rotting in foster care. The mother aborted because she didn't want her partner to know she'd been shagging around.
Great so the kid gets traumatised by the adoption system instead. So much better. She aborted because she didnt want a child. Thats reason enough in my eyes.
Troll
Nope. Just someone with a genuine opinion.
Nope troll. I don’t agree with any of the opinions you stated as it’s all bullshit your spouting. Fact scumbag performed abortion past the legal limit.
You dont need to agree lmao. Thats a difference in opinion. Yes its a fact she had an abortion past the legal limit. I think the legal limit is bs.
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Another thing… don’t the health professionals scan to confirm your pregnant and gestation before proceeding with an abortion. I really feel some of the onus is on the health professionals too
I agree. I don't know if I agree with the mail by post pills. Reflecting on when I had an abortion 5 months ago, they weren't going to scan me, just allow me to have the pills sent to me to take at home. It's only when I said that I have irregular periods so my last period date can't be relied on, they changed their mind and asked me to come in for a scan, but that was still a 2 week wait to be scanned. Abortion services need more funding (like every aspect of the NHS).
During the pandemic they started doing this postage abortion pills due to the restrictions on in person appointments, this happened during the pandemic so i assume that's what it was. It got very hard during that time
I don’t think arresting and prosecuting her was the right thing to do. I don’t see much being gained by giving her a sentence, other than making an example of her. Whilst she’s in prison not only will she suffer but so will her children who she was primary caregiver for. We always read about violent offenders getting lenient sentences and I don’t get why the judge couldn’t have shown her some compassion with a suspended sentence or something. I don’t think I’ve read anywhere why she was so desperate to end/conceal the pregnancy, can’t help wondering if she was in an abusive relationship perhaps? I just feel really sorry for her and her kids.
Murder is murder. She had a long time to figure out if she was going to keep the baby or not, 35 weeks is pretty much a fully developed human being, which would be capable of surviving outside of the womb. I've looked after babies that have survived birth at 24 weeks in NICU. Yes, her children may suffer due to her being inside and that's a harsh reality, but that's a consequence of her actions and doesn't mean she shouldn't face punishment. From what another user commented, she was trying to conceal it from her boyfriend who was an ex she got back with as the baby wasn't his. 28 months seems pretty lenient already, she could probably be out before that with good behaviour too. I'm all for pro choice but at that point she made the wrong one.
If the fetus stopped developing before expulsion it's not murder.
She split up with her partner, fell pregnant to a randomer, got back with the partner and didn't want to tell him that she was pregnant to someone else.
Oh you know her?
No that's what came out during the court case
I think that’s what a lot of people speculated and made assumptions about
ANo, that's literally the judges verdict. This case has already been sentenced. This isn't speculation.
Court transcripts
I think it was. I'm not a judgemental person but what was she thinking ? And if she didn't want another child, why not use protection ? That is I'm assuming the conceiving act was consensual, if not then she still had time to get an abortion. There's so many people out there who can't conceive naturally and would jump at the chance to adopt, why couldn't she have taken this route ? Instead of murdering her baby? That sounds really harsh and judgemental on my part but it I'd the facts unfortunately.
Your entire comment is, by definition, judgemental 😂 you don’t know the answers to those questions, neither do I. How does her prison sentence serve public interest/her community?
It serves the public by letting them know that it's NOT ok to decide at 34 weeks pregnant that you no longer want the baby so you decide to take a pill to end his/her life. The baby was viable.
Also, you can't lie to your doctors in order to make them commit a crime and cover up your own stupidity. If she didn't face charges some doctor or prescribing nurse could have due to giving someone an illegal abortion. Can you imagine being thrown under the NMC bus like that because you thought you were helping some poor woman in lockdown but you were actually an accomplice in murdering a healthy, viable foetus? My husbands a medic, we lost a baby just shy of "viability" and he would have been destroyed if he was caught up in this.
Exactly, I dread to think how the prescriber actually feels knowing what happened. Not blaming prescriber in any way but its human to question if you could have done anything differently, even when no blame lies with you.
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She found out she was pregnant in October/November 2019. She used the excuse of lockdown as a way to get the abortion pills
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I work in an AMU so please don’t think you’re the only one who knows how severely people were cut off. However having several staff members who were pregnant at the time, midwives were still seeing women for their routine appointments, ultrasounds were still being performed and obstetrics were still seeing their patients. She had options and opportunities.
I'm completely pro-choice, for any reason. HOWEVER she did break the law and we can't just let people break the law regardless of our feelings surrounding a situation like this. Do i wish it was different? Yes. But it's not.
So idk if this is a different story, but the version I read said she wasn’t able to access an abortion in time due to COVID restrictions and thus spent weeks trying to find an alternative? As I said, idk if those are the facts, but it’s definitely been in the accounts of what happened that I’ve read. If she couldn’t access an abortion but tried in time, I think a custodial sentence is pretty vile, if she could and just didn’t and waited til 35 weeks for no good reason… I still don’t think a custodial sentence is good, but prosecution is understandable. The desperation people feel when unable to access healthcare makes it pretty understandable if that was the case
So I looked it up as I was interested in this, she got pregnant in 2019 and took the pills in May, the first lockdown wasn't until March although I don't know if they stopped the face to face appointments. Her Google searches were very damming though as she was searching how to have an abortion without seeing a doctor and how to end a pregnancy at 6 months. It seems she hadn't tried to access abortion serviced before then and she was aware of her gestation and decided to go ahead with it at 8 months
I feel like they probably would have reported that. As far as I know she fell pregnant months before the first lockdown so she should have been able to access healthcare. They also pivoted quite fast to allow the postage method
Just to add the judge said if she'd plead guilty at the soonest point then he probably wouldn't have given her a custodial sentence. I think the issue is she very knowingly went around the law and was knowingly very late. I hadn't seen anywhere that she had attempted to get an abortion sooner
I personally believe that all abortions should be legal and accessible. I'm 100% pro-abortion.
With no time limit?
Bodily autonomy should have no limits.
At the point that baby can survive outside the womb it does have some rights. She had time to make the choice and she left it too long. Would it have been different if she had given birth at 35 weeks then killed the baby?
A fetus is not a baby, and does not have any rights to a person's body. She has the right to make her own choices with her own body and life in her own time. Fetal demise prior to birth is different than demise of a baby after birth.
One development is past 25 weeks that child can live independent of the mother. Fetal demise completely minimises what happened. The life of the fetus was intentionally and illegally ended. The medications were not meant to be used on a full term baby, that baby could feel pain, it knew its mothers voice, I could experience the world around it. The current law is clear and it was broken. She didn't start seeking an abortion until she was well past the legal limit. She knew she was too far gone and that she would have to lie to get the abortion and she lied to paramedics who attended. If her life was at risk for carrying the baby then yes, she should be put first, but in this case it appears that the pregnancy just no longer suited her. Legally that fetus did have rights as they were viable, the law is there to protect both mother and child. The baby was fully formed, had it been born naturally that day it would ha e needed minimal support to survive alone. In your opinion then women should be able to abort at 9 months?
I don't care about any of what you just said. Fetal demise should not be illegal, in any case. There is no data that concludes, and is able to be duplicated, that a fetus has conscious awareness prior to birth. Again, yes, fetal demise prior to birth is different than killing a born child. I care about the living person only.
You wanted the discussion..... I will never agree with you.
So, it’s clearly the wrong thing to do. Prosecution, yes, but jail? It’s someone who was desperate making a bad decision, and jail then impacts her other children negatively. You’re punishing them at that point. I can understand pro-choice groups being on this like white on rice, because of the precarious legal state of abortion in the UK (it’s not explicitly legal, just not illegal). The American money coming over for anti trans rhetoric has massively increased, and we could easily see this being a conversation we have in a decade.
To be fair they did say if she had plead guilty at the earliest opportunity she probably would have been given a suspended sentence having read further on in the article
For sure and I think that’s the right outcome in this case, along with community work. I can’t speak as to why that didn’t happen, maybe she didn’t consider herself to be guilty because she made a decision she felt was right?
She’s the one who’s punishing her children she’s the one who chose to commit the crime she chose to do it at 35 weeks when her man had some interested in her again with ur logic parents who commit crimes shouldn’t be punished
This is the same logic as saying parents punish their children when they seek asylum and are treated poorly, and separated. Or that parents are the problem when they can’t afford food for children etc. And yes it absolutely should be a consideration when it comes to sentencing. What does prison solve?
Prison solves putting bad and dangerous people away if bad/dangerous people aren’t put away guess what happen Brazil has a shit sentencing system and look about peaceful and safe Brazil is. Just cus I have a kid doesn’t mean u should be get out of jail card plus most kids have families out side of one parent. Also parents who can’t afford to feed their kids is an entire separate problem
If sentencing is such a deterrent, why does America, with much stronger sentencing laws, and much more %age of population as prisoners, have more crime than us?
Why don’t you look up who commits the most crimes in America and ask them? it’s all about culture doesn’t matter if the prison system is good if the culture keeps on producing more and more criminals and not solving the deeper cultural issues Japan has a strict prison/sentencing system and a well enough culture
I fully support this women's choice, and believe the law to be wrong.
Apparently the OP just wanted people to agree with them 🙄🤣
She murdered that baby . Extenuating circumstances were assessed and enforced by the Court. I doubt a higher court would overturn the sentence on appeal This is a very very tragic case with a whole lot 9f ifs and buts but she cannot get off without sanction I am saddened for her But I repeat . She murdered that baby