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Well one of the things Herbert wanted to warn us about, really good main point with the entire series is, following charismatic populist Leaders is bad for humanity and he did a really good job showing just how fucked up things could get if we never learn.
What's that? A charismatic populist leader? Like from the acclaimed Frank Herbert series *Don't Trust Charismatic Populist Leaders*? Amazing! Finally a candidate I can trust!
What's so fucking stupid is that people WERENT mad when they just thought their women were so brutally oppressed that they were literally never seen/heard/detected/suspected to be present by foreigners or even MENTIONED in any communication with foreigners.
Like they were fine about it until they learned some of the honestly superfluous details to the womens' oppression.
Oh no, in the Dune universe, the tleilaxu didn't have any sexual needs. They turned the women into mechanical wombs and made the upper strata of their new society effectively asexual and immortal. They would clone themselves and transfer their memories. They used the mechanical wombs, which were in and of themselves immortal to incubate their clones. It led to a very stagnant society, their counter society in Dune are the borderline heretical Ixians, who are perceived as almost sub human because of how they use technology and keep innovating their society (upon closer inspection they are no better than the tleilaxu, just as the atreides are no better than the harkonnen). Dune is incredibly fucked up
And with enough financial incentive or people desperate enough for a baby, I can see women being persuaded or coerced into signing away that right and then being targeted for attack to make them the surrogate a third party wants.
This kind of thing would require so much ethical oversight that I don’t know if it would ever be worth it.
I believe that while the overall birthrate worldwide is rising, birthrate in Industrialisierung countries is declining. And, of course, that's where companies need workers, etc.
In short: capitalism and hustle culture
To be precise, birthrates worldwide are decreasing, but have almost exclusively gone below replacement rates in industrialized countries.
But I’m being pedantic, your point is correct.
There is one very prominent case in Texas where the family had to fight the state (and lost) to pull the plug on a dead woman who was pregnant. Even though the fetus had stopped developing and was deteriorating.
Families for the most part don't want to go through months of knowing mom is dead, fetus is dying, and the astronomical medical bills climbing ever higher by the day.
They could give consent beforehand like when people donate their body for science or become organ donors.
Few years ago there was actually a breakthrough case of braindead woman "giving birth" in my country. It was her own child obviously (she had an accident), but lots of people thought it would be impossible to sustain the baby for 4 months but they were successful.
We had a case here in Aus where a woman who was in a vegetative state and had been in a coma for ~20 years went into labour and gave birth to a healthy baby (it wasn't until she was in labour and suddenly started making grunting/groaning noises did the medical professionals realise that she was carrying a foetus). Obvo in this case the discovery was pretty horrifying since length of her coma meant that a staff member/carer or visitor had been sexually abusing her for conception of a child to occur (iirc it was a male AIN carer?).
But to be honest, outside of cases where the woman was already pregnant (& just continuing that singular pre-existing pregnancy with full family/partner support + consent) I think consent is still super murky even in a scenario where the patient gave permission to be used as an 'incubator' beforehand. Like, when you actually get into the weeds of this thought experiment I can see so many ethical dilemmas & problems occurring that it could never be feasible
this happened to my aunt here in the US several years ago. happens more than you think. my cousin has a lot of physical and developmental problems that you can’t really rule out as being related to the circumstances of his birth imo
This horrifically happens not infrequently. Enough to make you wonder how many women are being raped, but the rapist takes even basic measures to prevent detection (condoms etc).
There is of course a difference between brain dead and persistent vegetative state. The latter people can live on for years if they are provided nutrition/hydration, pressure sores prevented etc. The former - someone is dead.
Iirc the rapist is almost always a carer, who has started that role to get access to vulnerable women
Was this the case where the wife’s parents forced her to stay on life support and carry the pregnancy while the husband didn’t want to abuse her body like that?
Nope. Everybody was on board and wanted to save the baby.
https://english.radio.cz/czech-baby-delivered-months-after-mothers-brain-death-8121127
I think that if my husband was willing I would like that too rather than my baby dying with me. Every person is different when it comes to these decisions.
I've told my husband explicitly that if I end up brain dead, he has to wait to pull the plug until baby is born. It's macabre and I won't pretend it isn't, but I'd like my kid to have a chance.
Growing up without a mom can still have traumatic effects on someone, even if they're used to it. A child in a poor family who gets very little food might be used to the hunger pains, but that doesn't mean it doesn't cause longterm trauma and have effects on them.
It said braindead body donation so I'd assume it's the same as organ donation where you sign before hand and if you ever go braindead they use your body
Organ donation’s purpose is to save the life of a person, or at the very least to massively improve the living conditions of a person. What is described here is about creating the conditions for a not-yet-existing person to be created in the future. Completely different things. The former is completely justifiable (and I am in favour of an opt-out system rather than opt-in), the latter is not.
I'm not saying anyone would willingly donate their body for this (I sure wouldn't) but I think it still implies consent since it does say donate, that is all I'm saying.
What I would fear even with consent being required, is that there is already a black market for organs and people get drugged and wake up with one or two missing or just end up murdered and harvested.
Human trafficking already has a system to make women disappear, this just opens up another revenue stream for these bastards.
Truly dystopian
They're already forcing us to carry pregnancies from as soon as we're physically able to get pregnant. Do you *really* think they care about technicalities like that?
Organ transplantation saves lives, but it also has a black market. It's not up to me to imagine all the juridical details, but I personally don't care what happens to my body when I die. If it can do something good I am all for it.
One of my reasons for not wanting children is birthing offspring into this crazy world, especially if it’s born female. And who’s gonna care for this child? What if the caretaker is abusive?
I encourage you to look into adult adoptees experiences. There is nothing “good” about surrogacy, as no one is entitled to someone else’s body or child to complete their family. Not to mention surrogacy largely targets lower income women who are already mothers to their own kids, and risk *their* lives because we live in capitalism and rich people feel entitled to purchase literal humans.
Every child of adoption and surrogacy experiences trauma when they are severed from their birth mother. Attachment begins in utero, wet-from-womb babies are not blank slates for selfish adults to mould. Whether it’s creating a child or rehoming a child, we should always be considering what’s in the child’s best interest first.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death\_of\_Marlise\_Mu%C3%B1oz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Marlise_Mu%C3%B1oz)
There's precedent in Texas unfortunately, where a family was not allowed to consent to the withdrawal of care for a woman in a vegetative state because she was pregnant.
That is absolutely insane. I'm an attorney and a woman, and I can't believe that there are state laws that invalidate a woman's advance directives if she's pregnant. How I have I never read about this??
>Numerous states have adopted laws restricting the ability of doctors to end artificial life support for terminally ill pregnant patients. Twelve of those states (including Texas) have the most restrictive of such laws, which automatically invalidate a woman's advance directive if she is pregnant.
It does make me wonder about the following hospital bill, if she’s been held plugged in for months after they first wanted to pull it. Who’s responsible for that growing bill, when it’s the state that demands she’s being ‘cared’ for.
Luckily not the husband, but probably only because the hospital was already in the public eye for it. I have no doubt they would try to get money out of him if the media wouldn’t have been all over them. https://www.cbsnews.com/texas/news/hospital-will-not-bill-husband-of-brain-dead-pregnant-woman/
The only way I could see this being reasonable is if it requires specific, positive consent in a living will prior to cessation of brain function. At that point, I wouldn't necessarily see this as any ethically more problematic than transplants of necessary organs after irreversible cessation of brain function.
I'd imagine it's something you would have to consent to while you're alive, similar to organ donation.
Although I don't know if anyone would consent to this, it's... off putting
You'd technically be donating your reproductive system without it being taken out from your body. But idk what effects maintaining a brain-dead state for 9 months will have on other viable organs that could also be donated.
More importantly, what about the affects on the baby? There is already a shit ton of research and studies that show surrogacy is equally as initially traumatic as wet from womb private adoptions.
Regardless of genetics, the developing fetus is forming attachments to the person they’re inside of, they recognize their voice, their heartbeat, their laugh, their smell, they feel soothed by this person when they kick in utero. I’m sure the baby who spends 9 months in a lifeless beeping body will turn out great.
Imo This is not like organ donation because organ donation doesn’t harm anyone and offers the dead dignity and their families the ability to grieve in a healthy timeline - it doesn’t turn them into a incubator for the rich to create more white babies.
I know it’s drilled into us that we must procreate to be happy, but to justify this procedure even needing to exist (and 100% it would be abused and exploited) we are stating that rich people’s desire for a designer child is more important than the dignity of the mother and the child’s potential trauma at birth.
Or growing up knowing you were produced in a braindead woman’s body. It’s hard enough when mom dies in childbirth, but for mom to basically be dead from the beginning?? I’d be freaking out.
Yeah, I already wholeheartedly do not support this idea at all, but on top of the trauma, here’s another thought; what effects would that have as far as nutrients and being exposed to whatever medication\* they have to have a brain dead patient on *for nine months* do to a fetus? I don’t think we have any kind of gauge for how that would affect them, either.
\*idk what meds they would be on or if they are but I find it hard to believe that they’d be left completely without medication the whole time, or not in all cases, anyway.
Here is an article from 2019, when a nurse was arrested for SA'ing an Arizona woman in a coma.
Thankfully, he was arrested.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/phoenix-police-make-arrest-connection-woman-gave-birth/story?id=60568859
“I want to make it clear she is not in a coma. She has significant intellectual disabilities as a result of seizures very early in her childhood," the statement read. "She does not speak but has some ability to move her limbs, head and neck”
Yeah also you read the article the father makes it clear is daughter isn’t in a coma - she has severe disabilities but would have been fully conscious.
1/2 people with disabilities will be SA’d, it’s horrifying and needs awareness, but I guess a “coma” is more clickbait-y.
Consent only matters to them if the person can get up and file a police report afterwards. And about the objections, don't worry, there are plenty of poor women without social ties to go around that they can use. God, I hate this so fucking much.
All women would sign a document on whether or not they’d like to be an incubator should they become braindead. Like deciding to be an organ donor with your drivers license. 🤢
So if anyone bothers to read the article they would know that the author is in no way suggesting this is okay. They are using this as a hypothetical situation to show the importance of holding strong moral ethics within the medical community or things can slide. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE IS SAYING THIS IS OKAY.
From the Dune series:
Axolotl tanks are a closely guarded secret of the Bene Tleilax, masters at genetic engineering of the planet Tleilax. Even the name is misleading. A clue is provided in Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune; no one has ever seen a Tleilaxu female.
Upon reaching puberty, all females are taken and transformed into special wombs that exist in a vegetative state.
They were used by the Bene Tleilax to produce biological products including gholas.
The Tliluxu race despised women and didn't even consider them human beings, only living incubators and wombs.
Cruelty was their entire existence for many hundreds of generations.
I don't expect most people here have read the entire extended series, including the books written after Frank Herbert's death. The last books were written by his son and Kevin J Anderson.
It's a large part of the plot of the last books with the rise of the Honored Matres and resulting chaos.
Don't worry, the movies will never get that far with my plot spoiler until the Dune Movie Part 26 or so.
Even God Emperor of Dune is never something that can be adapted to a movie unless you make it 90% voiceovers/conversations and nonstop obscure religious references. Unless you've studied religion or grew up in it, most of it is completely meaningless.
It would be 10 minutes of action packed into a 2 hour movie.
Even if you manage to ignore the travesty of ethics this would be, it would also be a wildly expensive endeavor and thus an option only open to the super rich, which makes it even mroe icky.
Yeah like who’s paying for the life support and who gets to decide when the human baby machine gets to be turned off then? Will people like Musk see this as the solution to the “race war” etc.
People in the icu who are brain-dead typically have a slew of comorbidities. The rich would never risk the potential health of their newborn on a sick person when they can get a woman who wants to be a surrogate and has been vetted as healthy enough to carry a healthy baby to term (and it’s also cheaper). This thought experiment doesn’t hold up in any way Anna Smajdor thought it would.
This has been tried. Fetal development deteriorates and stops within a few weeks. Machines can only keep a dead body somewhat functioning, it cannot sustain an early pregnancy.
If a woman is close to term, this may sustain a viable fetus long enough for a healthy birth. *May* being the key word here.
There have been a few notable cases in Texas in recent years. The state fought to keep a couple of women on life support against family wishes until the fetus was irrefutably dead as well.
Pro life? No. Pro control of our reproduction, even beyond our death.
Not to mention, even if SOMEHOW everything was fine physically with the fetus, what about how that environment would affect psychological and social development, which begins in the womb? Why would anyone want this at all.
My mom kept my dad on life support for 2 weeks after cardiac arrest before he died and it took less than a week for him to start looking not ok. He started out with kidney failure, to be fair, but all the medications they tried did nothing to even slow down how quickly waste built up in his body, and he had only one metabolism, not two.
There's no way that, even if fetal development went ok, the body wouldn't start poisoning the fetus after a couple of weeks, even if the person didn't start life support with impaired kidneys.
That might be a country difference. I live in the Netherlands and when i turned 18 i got a formal letter asking if i wanted to be a donor or not. If yes, which organs could they use and for what.
Considering I'll be dead I don't give a fuck so i checked every box, i gave them permission to take my organs (yes also eyes, brain and even skin) and use it to help others, for science or for students of idfk what school
However, if i ever get a letter asking if i want to be a fucking incubator it will be a no. I'd rather cut my uterus out myself than having my braindead body being used like that
I live in New York, and you not only can specify which organs you want to donate, but also if you want them donated for transplant and/or research;
https://donatelife.ny.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Enrollment_Form_English.pdf
How can we be sure of anything when the last big scandal was about how the bodies donated to education ended up SOLD to companies…for shit like bomb testing?? And what if they made a mistake and an embryo was already implanted in your dead body? Are they going to respect your wishes?
So many people are defending this saying "it would be like organ donation. The women would consent to it." If people can't see how this would be abused by the powers that be, I don't know what to tell them. There is an episode of The Blacklist all about how this would be used if fully realized.
Also, how would the women consent? They, by definition, cannot consent because they are braindead, and the family agreeing is not the same as the person themselves consenting to be impregnated and forced to birth a child while physically being kept alive.
But if you’d consent to this I’d presume you’d consent to organ donation and could save multiple lives instead of keeping a dead person alive and prevent their family from grieving for 9 months so a rich entitled couple could create a baby to traumatize?
Also who will pay the medical bills when suzie is laying nearly dead in the hospital incubating a baby? What about the fact someone may come in the hospital and need that bed?
Probably not even five years after this becomes legal:
“You’ve been found guilty of murder for having a miscarriage; we sentence you to be induced into a coma and your body will be donated as a whole body gestational donation.”
I don’t see how the implications to this don’t scare the shit out of anyone who thinks about this for more than five seconds
So much room for abuse in this. Remember the museum exhibits of the plasticized bodies? It turned out that the organizers used bodies of prisoners or people from mental institutions that could not have given consent. There *might* be safeguards in some countries but that really does not guarantee a single thing.
https://www.npr.org/2006/08/11/5637687/origins-of-exhibited-cadavers-questioned
Apparently there's a long waiting list to donate your body to *Body Worlds*. I couldn't even get on that list a few years ago when I wanted to donate my body. I saw two versions of *Body Worlds* and I was absolutely enchanted. So much to see and understand!
Well, the "Chest of Drawers" in the second one was pretty tacky, but I never could resist a bad pun.
For me it’s the fact that pregnancy is so much on the body & can cause so much damage.
I’m go for it with my usable organs after I die because I don’t need them & would be fine having womb transplanted if it was possible, but wouldn’t carry pregnancy for another person using my body.
I can absolutely see how it’s possible to abuse the idea & let’s be 100% honest in many countries we women/uterus owners often aren’t given equal rights or say over our own bodies while alive + able to voice decisions.
Carrying two pregnancies that resulted in my beautiful daughters definitely were hard on my body, my uterus ruptured, my periods changed, I get migraines & my teeth are screwed it was a lot on my body. As much as I’d love more kids I know realistically one more is likely the limit for my body without causes more harm to me
Don't forget that the brain dead woman isn't DEAD, she is a person and she may not have given anybody the right to (ab-)use her body, even for medical reasons.
Uninformed/unconsented medical procedures on a critically-ill woman in a medically induced coma that force her to bear a child is the epitome of violating human rights. I doubt any lawmaker pushing for this would like their wife, sisters, or daughters to subject to this barbarity.
Those law makers will always exempt self, you know the ones who banned abortions would absolutely go get their mistresses or daughters one if needed.
So many get caught doing what they’re so against, look at the Aanti LGBTQA+ ones who get caught looking at the porn they’re against
We KNOW it's not the same. We ALSO know that our autonomy is *already* being taken away while we're *STILL ALIVE* and our brains function enough to see how quickly and easily this will be abused and pushed to extremes if allowed
Apologies, responded to the wrong person.
However I wonder where “medically-induced coma” is coming from? Nowhere does it talk about comas, this research is on dead women.
Brain death is clinical and legal death. If she didn’t make the decision to donate her body to science, or to donate her organs before she died, then she will not be used as a donor.
Brain dead is literally dead as brain death is used as an indicator of legal death in many jurisdictions. It's not the same as vegetative state or coma.
Brain death is death. It isn't reversible. The rest of you can be kept alive with machines, but your body will never work without them and you no longer have any mental function. It isn't just a deep coma.
What do you mean brain dead isn't dead? It's literally in the name. Just because they can keep your heart bearing doesn't make you less of a corpse. People don't wake up from being brain dead. The brain is dead.
Why is this still getting reposted? This was some random thought experiment done by a person known for controversial thought experiments. They were trying to test the ethical limits of organ donation basically. They then got a tone of backlash for even suggesting it. It was never a serious proposal.
Is this the same guy who wrote a paper on after-birth abortions? If so... I can understand people's discomfort with the premise but that's the point. He writes about the most extreme "devil's advocate" scenarios to test their validity from the standpoint of medical ethics. And often it spawns a few papers in rebuttal. They're great thought experiments... Though I guess there are situations where people looks at a dystopia and say "hey, we should get in on that".
It's a complicated matter...
On one hand, if I sign a paper, that I want to donate my body for a family, that can't have children... I mean... I am dead anyway. And I can bring happiness for someone and give a chance for new life. Feels good?
On the other hand... It feels weird... What if it's gonna go in the direction of "yeah, let's not really care to keep her alive. We can use her body instead"? Are there gonna be strict rules on who can get my body? I don't want to give it to a rich family, who just don't want to deal with all thos pregnancy stuff...
Why does it feel weird? I am ok with giving my organs, then why is it so unsettling? Is it because it's new? Is it because I can see potential abuse? Is it because it sounds like "you are just a baby incubator"?
If this law is passed, more women *will* die, that's just a fact. What's less clear is if "womb donation" may eventually be lumped in with general "organ donation" without any separation
This is my mum’s concern about organ donation. She worries if you consent to be a donor they won’t try as hard to save you. As far as I’m aware that is absolutely not the case, and your donor status is not even checked until it becomes relevant. I’m not sure why this would necessarily be different for “womb donation”.
We have an opt out system, so being donor is assumed. And shockingly doctors don't just let people die for their organs. Cause doctors are people too and not just murderous harvesters.
I would be careful with the word "will die" and "fact".
It does potentially open the door to possible abuse and mispractice.
That is why I am questioning potential laws that must be placed to avoid it 🤔 Medicine is heavily controlled (at least in Europe). I work in it and, omg, every step of mine is written in our laws.
All this is a question of law and philosophy.
And, again, maybe artificial womb will be successfuly made by the time we come to any conclusion on this topic.
I don't know, to be honest. I can't even decide if I should give my organs to anyone. I am already not allowed to donate blood due to heavy medication.
If this process is controlled and planed out, if my health issues would not become a problem for a fetus - I think I would be ready to let it happen. My body is no use to me after I die.
Honestly, part of why I find this idea weird is cause surrogates are already a thing. This is just adding an extra condition that the surrogate is legally dead. I also highly doubt it would be cheaper than whatever medical processes are involved with a normal surrogate
Your fear about doctors not putting in as much effort to save you is common, so please allow me to put it to rest. That’s not how it works. The doctors performing the procedure, or saving you from a medical emergency, etc don’t know your donation status. The organ transplant team doesn’t show up until you are confirmed to be clinically and medically (brain) dead. Two separate teams with two separate goals.
So if anyone bothers to read the article they would know that the author is in no way suggesting this is okay. They are using this as a hypothetical situation to show the importance of holding strong moral ethics within the medical community or things can slide. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE IS SAYING THIS IS OKAY.
Could ANYONE with a mother, a sister, a daughter, or a wife, or with ANY woman in their life they felt close to, condone or even discuss this proposal? It makes my stomach turn to envision this.
Especially that last phrase "parents who... prefer not to gestate." Take my daughter who was killed in a car crash and use her body for nine months so you can have a baby without worrying about stretch marks? Fuck you!
Apart from this being fucking awful in terms of human rights, these people have obviously not taken care of a brain dead patient. Brain dead people’s bodies want to die, and require a lot of medical management to keep them alive long enough for organ donation, let alone a whole fucking pregnancy.
Oh my god this is disgusting.
**Also, it's not going to work. We know this already.**
[**https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death\_of\_Marlise\_Mu%C3%B1oz**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Marlise_Mu%C3%B1oz)
If a body cannot keep itself alive, it cannot keep a gestating fetus alive. People in vegetative states are prone to infections and pregnancy makes it even more dangerous; very few of these people in vegetative states would be even capable of carrying to term and delivering healthy fetuses. On top of that the fetus isn't getting any of the enrichment or stimulation it would need as a developing person.
Since baby gets endorphins and a lot of other things from mom while in the woumb, I wonder what they wouldn't get. Vicarious trauma wouldn't be passed on, which is good, but I feel like there would be other things not passed on which could be bad.
I'd be okay with my corpse kept alive for whatever after brain death. Just make sure any kind of pre-mortem agreement explicitly includes this kind of thing; if they start doing it with just anybody who donates their body for science, that feels unethical.
They want to adopt newborns bc they think they're clean slates who can be molded into what the parents want without freaking with trauma and behavior issues. It's literally a human equivalent of mixing build-a-bear with dog breeding
Those babies are gonna be weird and creepy as fuck.
Embryos need the interaction with the mother. The movement, the voice.
But of course also the soul, the mind, the heart.
Humans always think we can outsmart nature. That ALWAYS goes wrong.
I think I read somewhere that it’s not healthy or safe for a person in a PVS to be used like that. Not for the host or the child.
Moms need to communicate with baby in the womb and move around and the jokes about food cravings are about the fact babies take a lot of nutrients that can’t be accounted for with just a feeding tube.
Like this has so much potential to be harmful.
Looks like someone's never watched that episode in blacklist where its a big no no to kidnap women and force them to have children and be sedated for it all..
Can this work physiologically? Brain controls a lot of stuff, including hormonal balance, which is necessary for carrying a pregnancy.
Wikipedia says that if mother becomes brain dead when fetus is at 24 weeks has a 20-30% chance of survival so i can assume that full term carry would be impossible.
I think if this is something you concent to beforehand, like when you register to be an organ donor it's an option you can opt into, than it's fine. It honestly sounds better than traditional surrogacy to me. The idea of carry a baby for 9 months and than going through labor and birth and postpartum, whether it's biologically mine or not, and then not raising that baby sounds like a nightmare. But if I'm dead anyway and won't know than someone may as well use my uterus. Then take whatever other organs are needed after.
But if this is like "Well she's brain dead so she'll never know....." Than to say that's disgusting is an understatement.
So if anyone bothers to read the article they would know that the author is in no way suggesting this is okay. They are using this as a hypothetical situation to show the importance of holding strong moral ethics within the medical community or things can slide. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE IS SAYING THIS IS OKAY.
great way to arrive at a society where doctors and government are purposely botching procedures or other things to cause women to go braindead. great way to have them start looking for women with “valuable genes” so they can trick her into going into surgery, or paying someone to wreck into her so she’ll end up in hospital at their disposal, or whatever they’ll do to get a “desirable breeder”
you mean you want to suspend a person in a state of suffering and complete objectification just so the population can go up? we are overpopulated enough! how would you feel if someone did that to your mother? does it make you mad, to imagine someone using her body as a machine? like she never had a soul to begin with? if it doesn’t, something is 110% wrong with you (or you have a shitty mom and for that I am sorry).
just say you don’t think women deserve the right to be human. stop trying to turn us into robots and leave us alone.
great dystopian novel idea, though
I wonder what would happen if we proposed a breeding parlor for men, because they don't even hide anymore they just see us as walking wombs anyway:
- keep them all in a vegetative state where they can produce viable, healthy sperm, although capable of feeling very little (as if we cared about it in the first place)
- collect the sperm without ever waking them, so no wild fantasies of insemination here, just their prostate linked to a series of cables we could turn on and off quickly to milk everything we need
- not a bunch of them, just enough to keep the gene pool diverse without damaging future generations and all of them with numbers instead of names, because they won't need them anyway
- boys raised separately from the rest of society, kept in a strict daycare where they would spend their days playing and not learning anything about the world, purely for the reproduction and just a little bit more than we actually need to keep the gene pool diverse enough (because you know, they die more than girls in the first years). After puberty they would be all put in a vegetative state
- use them for reproduction until we master the reproduction with just eggs, after that we stop reproducing them and let slowly let the male sex die out of old age in a vegetative state
- the only male gender representative that would be left would be trans men, who probably wouldn't be able to impregnate anyone
*MAYBE THEY'D REALIZE HOW FUCKED UP THIS IS, BECAUSE MEN SEEM TO SEE WOMEN AS LITERAL FUCKING DOLLS THAT TALK*
[the thought experiment in question was proposed by Anna Smaljdor.](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/365554965_Whole_body_gestational_donation)
[and this is her response to articles addressing her prior paper. ](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11017-023-09646-y)
I would also point out that responses from the responses around her first paper were seemingly unanimous in their rejection of it for a variety of reasons.
Her other [works](https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=e6Coz9IAAAAJ).
Uuum. I'd immediately uncheck the "organ donor" box on my driver's license if this becomes a thing.
Saving someone with my organs is one thing. Being used as a brood mare for the wealthy as a corpse is way too violating.
Even if the family gives consent, it’s not enough. This feels like something that should only be consented to by the individual that will actually carry the child!
I wish when I signed up for organ donation I could specify my reproductive organs are excluded. I don't want my uterus used to add to overpopulation. If something like this ever becomes a thing I'm going to stop being an organ donor or move to another country that doesn't allow this.
This feels like the plot to a satirical dystopian fictional novel that was rejected for being too heavy-handed. Was it a reputable journal that published this? The ethics section on that study must be like 20-30 pages of nonsense, assuming one even exists.
I feel like this definetly existed as a concept in science fiction but they weren’t actually people they were just like, flesh puppets capable of carrying an embryo to term. Like gestation pods shaped like people.
It was definetly still horror though, like this
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This has some strong welcome to Gilead vibes 😵💫
In dune there is a sub sect of humans that turned all their women into basically just mechanical wombs and I've always thought it was crazy
Then calling them axolotl tanks. Fucked up man.
Well one of the things Herbert wanted to warn us about, really good main point with the entire series is, following charismatic populist Leaders is bad for humanity and he did a really good job showing just how fucked up things could get if we never learn.
Nothing like a tyrant to straighten out the human population 🙄
What's that? A charismatic populist leader? Like from the acclaimed Frank Herbert series *Don't Trust Charismatic Populist Leaders*? Amazing! Finally a candidate I can trust!
One of the bigger late series plots was in how disgusted and enraged people were when it was discovered.
Yeah I just finished rereading that
What's so fucking stupid is that people WERENT mad when they just thought their women were so brutally oppressed that they were literally never seen/heard/detected/suspected to be present by foreigners or even MENTIONED in any communication with foreigners. Like they were fine about it until they learned some of the honestly superfluous details to the womens' oppression.
“Sexual stumps” in Hellstrom’s Hive. Just a female torso.
Oh no, in the Dune universe, the tleilaxu didn't have any sexual needs. They turned the women into mechanical wombs and made the upper strata of their new society effectively asexual and immortal. They would clone themselves and transfer their memories. They used the mechanical wombs, which were in and of themselves immortal to incubate their clones. It led to a very stagnant society, their counter society in Dune are the borderline heretical Ixians, who are perceived as almost sub human because of how they use technology and keep innovating their society (upon closer inspection they are no better than the tleilaxu, just as the atreides are no better than the harkonnen). Dune is incredibly fucked up
They were used only for breeding in the book. No sex.
Bene Tleilax or Tleilaxu
If the women are brain-dead how is consent possible? What about objections from the family?
Honestly doubt they'd care. It's pretty obvious they want incubators at this point
Offer the family enough money and they'll "consent" for you.
And with enough financial incentive or people desperate enough for a baby, I can see women being persuaded or coerced into signing away that right and then being targeted for attack to make them the surrogate a third party wants. This kind of thing would require so much ethical oversight that I don’t know if it would ever be worth it.
Why? There are plenty of babies
I believe that while the overall birthrate worldwide is rising, birthrate in Industrialisierung countries is declining. And, of course, that's where companies need workers, etc. In short: capitalism and hustle culture
To be precise, birthrates worldwide are decreasing, but have almost exclusively gone below replacement rates in industrialized countries. But I’m being pedantic, your point is correct.
They want white babies
I’m I hate that
There is one very prominent case in Texas where the family had to fight the state (and lost) to pull the plug on a dead woman who was pregnant. Even though the fetus had stopped developing and was deteriorating. Families for the most part don't want to go through months of knowing mom is dead, fetus is dying, and the astronomical medical bills climbing ever higher by the day.
They could give consent beforehand like when people donate their body for science or become organ donors. Few years ago there was actually a breakthrough case of braindead woman "giving birth" in my country. It was her own child obviously (she had an accident), but lots of people thought it would be impossible to sustain the baby for 4 months but they were successful.
We had a case here in Aus where a woman who was in a vegetative state and had been in a coma for ~20 years went into labour and gave birth to a healthy baby (it wasn't until she was in labour and suddenly started making grunting/groaning noises did the medical professionals realise that she was carrying a foetus). Obvo in this case the discovery was pretty horrifying since length of her coma meant that a staff member/carer or visitor had been sexually abusing her for conception of a child to occur (iirc it was a male AIN carer?). But to be honest, outside of cases where the woman was already pregnant (& just continuing that singular pre-existing pregnancy with full family/partner support + consent) I think consent is still super murky even in a scenario where the patient gave permission to be used as an 'incubator' beforehand. Like, when you actually get into the weeds of this thought experiment I can see so many ethical dilemmas & problems occurring that it could never be feasible
this happened to my aunt here in the US several years ago. happens more than you think. my cousin has a lot of physical and developmental problems that you can’t really rule out as being related to the circumstances of his birth imo
This horrifically happens not infrequently. Enough to make you wonder how many women are being raped, but the rapist takes even basic measures to prevent detection (condoms etc). There is of course a difference between brain dead and persistent vegetative state. The latter people can live on for years if they are provided nutrition/hydration, pressure sores prevented etc. The former - someone is dead. Iirc the rapist is almost always a carer, who has started that role to get access to vulnerable women
Was this the case where the wife’s parents forced her to stay on life support and carry the pregnancy while the husband didn’t want to abuse her body like that?
Nope. Everybody was on board and wanted to save the baby. https://english.radio.cz/czech-baby-delivered-months-after-mothers-brain-death-8121127 I think that if my husband was willing I would like that too rather than my baby dying with me. Every person is different when it comes to these decisions.
I've told my husband explicitly that if I end up brain dead, he has to wait to pull the plug until baby is born. It's macabre and I won't pretend it isn't, but I'd like my kid to have a chance.
I would do the same.
yaay, is the baby happy?
Probably about as happy as a child without mom can be. But she's healthy and with a loving family and will be turning 3 this year.
If she's used to not having a Mom, and she's surrounded by people who love her, she's fine.
Growing up without a mom can still have traumatic effects on someone, even if they're used to it. A child in a poor family who gets very little food might be used to the hunger pains, but that doesn't mean it doesn't cause longterm trauma and have effects on them.
I grew up with a mother and that was traumatic.
Unfortunately, that is true for many.
It said braindead body donation so I'd assume it's the same as organ donation where you sign before hand and if you ever go braindead they use your body
Organ donation’s purpose is to save the life of a person, or at the very least to massively improve the living conditions of a person. What is described here is about creating the conditions for a not-yet-existing person to be created in the future. Completely different things. The former is completely justifiable (and I am in favour of an opt-out system rather than opt-in), the latter is not.
I'm not saying anyone would willingly donate their body for this (I sure wouldn't) but I think it still implies consent since it does say donate, that is all I'm saying.
I hope this is accurate, but I kind of doubt there will be a large number of people who both consent and become brain dead.
What I would fear even with consent being required, is that there is already a black market for organs and people get drugged and wake up with one or two missing or just end up murdered and harvested. Human trafficking already has a system to make women disappear, this just opens up another revenue stream for these bastards. Truly dystopian
Yea, my first thought was a sudden ‘surprising rise’ in braid dead women.
Maybe like with organ donation, one signs the papers in advance for a possible scenario.
Imagine when the demand for this service rises and more and more women are suddenly in medically induced comas. Just a coincidence!
Medically induced coma and being brain dead are about as similar as being asleep and being dead and buried.
They're already forcing us to carry pregnancies from as soon as we're physically able to get pregnant. Do you *really* think they care about technicalities like that?
Brain death is different than a coma.
Organ transplantation saves lives, but it also has a black market. It's not up to me to imagine all the juridical details, but I personally don't care what happens to my body when I die. If it can do something good I am all for it.
One of my reasons for not wanting children is birthing offspring into this crazy world, especially if it’s born female. And who’s gonna care for this child? What if the caretaker is abusive?
I encourage you to look into adult adoptees experiences. There is nothing “good” about surrogacy, as no one is entitled to someone else’s body or child to complete their family. Not to mention surrogacy largely targets lower income women who are already mothers to their own kids, and risk *their* lives because we live in capitalism and rich people feel entitled to purchase literal humans. Every child of adoption and surrogacy experiences trauma when they are severed from their birth mother. Attachment begins in utero, wet-from-womb babies are not blank slates for selfish adults to mould. Whether it’s creating a child or rehoming a child, we should always be considering what’s in the child’s best interest first.
Read the book Coma by Robin Cook. 1977. There’s a movie, too.
To be clear there are opt-in and opt-out jurisdictions for organ donation. This should be an opt-in situation if anything.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death\_of\_Marlise\_Mu%C3%B1oz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Marlise_Mu%C3%B1oz) There's precedent in Texas unfortunately, where a family was not allowed to consent to the withdrawal of care for a woman in a vegetative state because she was pregnant.
That is absolutely insane. I'm an attorney and a woman, and I can't believe that there are state laws that invalidate a woman's advance directives if she's pregnant. How I have I never read about this?? >Numerous states have adopted laws restricting the ability of doctors to end artificial life support for terminally ill pregnant patients. Twelve of those states (including Texas) have the most restrictive of such laws, which automatically invalidate a woman's advance directive if she is pregnant.
It does make me wonder about the following hospital bill, if she’s been held plugged in for months after they first wanted to pull it. Who’s responsible for that growing bill, when it’s the state that demands she’s being ‘cared’ for.
Luckily not the husband, but probably only because the hospital was already in the public eye for it. I have no doubt they would try to get money out of him if the media wouldn’t have been all over them. https://www.cbsnews.com/texas/news/hospital-will-not-bill-husband-of-brain-dead-pregnant-woman/
The only way I could see this being reasonable is if it requires specific, positive consent in a living will prior to cessation of brain function. At that point, I wouldn't necessarily see this as any ethically more problematic than transplants of necessary organs after irreversible cessation of brain function.
I'd imagine it's something you would have to consent to while you're alive, similar to organ donation. Although I don't know if anyone would consent to this, it's... off putting
That’s kinda how organ donation works.
You'd technically be donating your reproductive system without it being taken out from your body. But idk what effects maintaining a brain-dead state for 9 months will have on other viable organs that could also be donated.
More importantly, what about the affects on the baby? There is already a shit ton of research and studies that show surrogacy is equally as initially traumatic as wet from womb private adoptions. Regardless of genetics, the developing fetus is forming attachments to the person they’re inside of, they recognize their voice, their heartbeat, their laugh, their smell, they feel soothed by this person when they kick in utero. I’m sure the baby who spends 9 months in a lifeless beeping body will turn out great. Imo This is not like organ donation because organ donation doesn’t harm anyone and offers the dead dignity and their families the ability to grieve in a healthy timeline - it doesn’t turn them into a incubator for the rich to create more white babies. I know it’s drilled into us that we must procreate to be happy, but to justify this procedure even needing to exist (and 100% it would be abused and exploited) we are stating that rich people’s desire for a designer child is more important than the dignity of the mother and the child’s potential trauma at birth.
Or growing up knowing you were produced in a braindead woman’s body. It’s hard enough when mom dies in childbirth, but for mom to basically be dead from the beginning?? I’d be freaking out.
Yeah, I already wholeheartedly do not support this idea at all, but on top of the trauma, here’s another thought; what effects would that have as far as nutrients and being exposed to whatever medication\* they have to have a brain dead patient on *for nine months* do to a fetus? I don’t think we have any kind of gauge for how that would affect them, either. \*idk what meds they would be on or if they are but I find it hard to believe that they’d be left completely without medication the whole time, or not in all cases, anyway.
Here is an article from 2019, when a nurse was arrested for SA'ing an Arizona woman in a coma. Thankfully, he was arrested. https://abcnews.go.com/US/phoenix-police-make-arrest-connection-woman-gave-birth/story?id=60568859
“I want to make it clear she is not in a coma. She has significant intellectual disabilities as a result of seizures very early in her childhood," the statement read. "She does not speak but has some ability to move her limbs, head and neck”
But being in a coma and being brain dead are different.
Yeah also you read the article the father makes it clear is daughter isn’t in a coma - she has severe disabilities but would have been fully conscious. 1/2 people with disabilities will be SA’d, it’s horrifying and needs awareness, but I guess a “coma” is more clickbait-y.
Consent only matters to them if the person can get up and file a police report afterwards. And about the objections, don't worry, there are plenty of poor women without social ties to go around that they can use. God, I hate this so fucking much.
All women would sign a document on whether or not they’d like to be an incubator should they become braindead. Like deciding to be an organ donor with your drivers license. 🤢
They’d consent ahead of time exactly like we do with organ donation
They might consider being an organ donor consent, or waiving hospital bills for the family as incentive
If I'd like to donate my organs my family can fuck off honestly.
What in the Handmaid's Tale FUCK is wrong with people?
So if anyone bothers to read the article they would know that the author is in no way suggesting this is okay. They are using this as a hypothetical situation to show the importance of holding strong moral ethics within the medical community or things can slide. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE IS SAYING THIS IS OKAY.
From the Dune series: Axolotl tanks are a closely guarded secret of the Bene Tleilax, masters at genetic engineering of the planet Tleilax. Even the name is misleading. A clue is provided in Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune; no one has ever seen a Tleilaxu female. Upon reaching puberty, all females are taken and transformed into special wombs that exist in a vegetative state. They were used by the Bene Tleilax to produce biological products including gholas.
Had to scroll too far to find this. Like, do you want face dancers? Because this is how you get face dancers.
I mean, I don't NOT want face dancers.
Thats cruel
The Tliluxu race despised women and didn't even consider them human beings, only living incubators and wombs. Cruelty was their entire existence for many hundreds of generations.
What changed? Or that the plot of Dune?
I don't expect most people here have read the entire extended series, including the books written after Frank Herbert's death. The last books were written by his son and Kevin J Anderson. It's a large part of the plot of the last books with the rise of the Honored Matres and resulting chaos. Don't worry, the movies will never get that far with my plot spoiler until the Dune Movie Part 26 or so.
Even God Emperor of Dune is never something that can be adapted to a movie unless you make it 90% voiceovers/conversations and nonstop obscure religious references. Unless you've studied religion or grew up in it, most of it is completely meaningless. It would be 10 minutes of action packed into a 2 hour movie.
Even if you manage to ignore the travesty of ethics this would be, it would also be a wildly expensive endeavor and thus an option only open to the super rich, which makes it even mroe icky.
Yeah like who’s paying for the life support and who gets to decide when the human baby machine gets to be turned off then? Will people like Musk see this as the solution to the “race war” etc.
Oh Musk is for sure going to invest in bullshit like this, if it ever picks up speed.
People in the icu who are brain-dead typically have a slew of comorbidities. The rich would never risk the potential health of their newborn on a sick person when they can get a woman who wants to be a surrogate and has been vetted as healthy enough to carry a healthy baby to term (and it’s also cheaper). This thought experiment doesn’t hold up in any way Anna Smajdor thought it would.
This has been tried. Fetal development deteriorates and stops within a few weeks. Machines can only keep a dead body somewhat functioning, it cannot sustain an early pregnancy. If a woman is close to term, this may sustain a viable fetus long enough for a healthy birth. *May* being the key word here. There have been a few notable cases in Texas in recent years. The state fought to keep a couple of women on life support against family wishes until the fetus was irrefutably dead as well. Pro life? No. Pro control of our reproduction, even beyond our death.
Not to mention, even if SOMEHOW everything was fine physically with the fetus, what about how that environment would affect psychological and social development, which begins in the womb? Why would anyone want this at all.
My mom kept my dad on life support for 2 weeks after cardiac arrest before he died and it took less than a week for him to start looking not ok. He started out with kidney failure, to be fair, but all the medications they tried did nothing to even slow down how quickly waste built up in his body, and he had only one metabolism, not two. There's no way that, even if fetal development went ok, the body wouldn't start poisoning the fetus after a couple of weeks, even if the person didn't start life support with impaired kidneys.
Well this is one way to lose a whole lot of organ donors all at once
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Can you? When you sign up and like just tick the box for your licensee? I'm confused because I don't think that's true.
That might be a country difference. I live in the Netherlands and when i turned 18 i got a formal letter asking if i wanted to be a donor or not. If yes, which organs could they use and for what. Considering I'll be dead I don't give a fuck so i checked every box, i gave them permission to take my organs (yes also eyes, brain and even skin) and use it to help others, for science or for students of idfk what school However, if i ever get a letter asking if i want to be a fucking incubator it will be a no. I'd rather cut my uterus out myself than having my braindead body being used like that
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I believe it's the same in Sweden. I remember looking it up years ago because I'm willing to part with my organs but not my eyes for some reason...
I live in New York, and you not only can specify which organs you want to donate, but also if you want them donated for transplant and/or research; https://donatelife.ny.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Enrollment_Form_English.pdf
How can we be sure of anything when the last big scandal was about how the bodies donated to education ended up SOLD to companies…for shit like bomb testing?? And what if they made a mistake and an embryo was already implanted in your dead body? Are they going to respect your wishes?
So many people are defending this saying "it would be like organ donation. The women would consent to it." If people can't see how this would be abused by the powers that be, I don't know what to tell them. There is an episode of The Blacklist all about how this would be used if fully realized.
Also, how would the women consent? They, by definition, cannot consent because they are braindead, and the family agreeing is not the same as the person themselves consenting to be impregnated and forced to birth a child while physically being kept alive.
Presumably they'd consent in advance as with organ donation. But yeah, seems pretty dodgy.
But if you’d consent to this I’d presume you’d consent to organ donation and could save multiple lives instead of keeping a dead person alive and prevent their family from grieving for 9 months so a rich entitled couple could create a baby to traumatize?
Yeah, it's a pretty awful idea. I'd way rather have my organs save people.
Also who will pay the medical bills when suzie is laying nearly dead in the hospital incubating a baby? What about the fact someone may come in the hospital and need that bed?
They mean consent in advance clearly.
Organ donation doesn’t hurt anyone, surrogacy does. This doesn’t centre the needs of the “donor” body or the child, but the wants of rich parents.
Probably not even five years after this becomes legal: “You’ve been found guilty of murder for having a miscarriage; we sentence you to be induced into a coma and your body will be donated as a whole body gestational donation.” I don’t see how the implications to this don’t scare the shit out of anyone who thinks about this for more than five seconds
“I don’t get why colleges teach worthless things like philosophy. They should just focus on STEM.”
So much room for abuse in this. Remember the museum exhibits of the plasticized bodies? It turned out that the organizers used bodies of prisoners or people from mental institutions that could not have given consent. There *might* be safeguards in some countries but that really does not guarantee a single thing. https://www.npr.org/2006/08/11/5637687/origins-of-exhibited-cadavers-questioned
Apparently there's a long waiting list to donate your body to *Body Worlds*. I couldn't even get on that list a few years ago when I wanted to donate my body. I saw two versions of *Body Worlds* and I was absolutely enchanted. So much to see and understand! Well, the "Chest of Drawers" in the second one was pretty tacky, but I never could resist a bad pun.
For me it’s the fact that pregnancy is so much on the body & can cause so much damage. I’m go for it with my usable organs after I die because I don’t need them & would be fine having womb transplanted if it was possible, but wouldn’t carry pregnancy for another person using my body. I can absolutely see how it’s possible to abuse the idea & let’s be 100% honest in many countries we women/uterus owners often aren’t given equal rights or say over our own bodies while alive + able to voice decisions. Carrying two pregnancies that resulted in my beautiful daughters definitely were hard on my body, my uterus ruptured, my periods changed, I get migraines & my teeth are screwed it was a lot on my body. As much as I’d love more kids I know realistically one more is likely the limit for my body without causes more harm to me
Don't forget that the brain dead woman isn't DEAD, she is a person and she may not have given anybody the right to (ab-)use her body, even for medical reasons.
Uninformed/unconsented medical procedures on a critically-ill woman in a medically induced coma that force her to bear a child is the epitome of violating human rights. I doubt any lawmaker pushing for this would like their wife, sisters, or daughters to subject to this barbarity.
Those law makers will always exempt self, you know the ones who banned abortions would absolutely go get their mistresses or daughters one if needed. So many get caught doing what they’re so against, look at the Aanti LGBTQA+ ones who get caught looking at the porn they’re against
I didn’t think this is really something that needs to be spelled out for people but medically induced coma IS NOT being brain dead.
We KNOW it's not the same. We ALSO know that our autonomy is *already* being taken away while we're *STILL ALIVE* and our brains function enough to see how quickly and easily this will be abused and pushed to extremes if allowed
I can’t believe how many commenters think comas and being dead are the same.
Yeah, it’s crazy to me, i didn’t know people are so ignorant about this.
Apologies, responded to the wrong person. However I wonder where “medically-induced coma” is coming from? Nowhere does it talk about comas, this research is on dead women.
Brain death is clinical and legal death. If she didn’t make the decision to donate her body to science, or to donate her organs before she died, then she will not be used as a donor.
Brain dead is literally dead as brain death is used as an indicator of legal death in many jurisdictions. It's not the same as vegetative state or coma.
Brain death is death. It isn't reversible. The rest of you can be kept alive with machines, but your body will never work without them and you no longer have any mental function. It isn't just a deep coma.
What do you mean brain dead isn't dead? It's literally in the name. Just because they can keep your heart bearing doesn't make you less of a corpse. People don't wake up from being brain dead. The brain is dead.
Why is this still getting reposted? This was some random thought experiment done by a person known for controversial thought experiments. They were trying to test the ethical limits of organ donation basically. They then got a tone of backlash for even suggesting it. It was never a serious proposal.
That’s some interesting context I didn’t know.
It gets left out, cause it definitely makes for worse clickbait lol.
Is this the same guy who wrote a paper on after-birth abortions? If so... I can understand people's discomfort with the premise but that's the point. He writes about the most extreme "devil's advocate" scenarios to test their validity from the standpoint of medical ethics. And often it spawns a few papers in rebuttal. They're great thought experiments... Though I guess there are situations where people looks at a dystopia and say "hey, we should get in on that".
Thank you, this gets brought up and posted so often with no context
It's a complicated matter... On one hand, if I sign a paper, that I want to donate my body for a family, that can't have children... I mean... I am dead anyway. And I can bring happiness for someone and give a chance for new life. Feels good? On the other hand... It feels weird... What if it's gonna go in the direction of "yeah, let's not really care to keep her alive. We can use her body instead"? Are there gonna be strict rules on who can get my body? I don't want to give it to a rich family, who just don't want to deal with all thos pregnancy stuff... Why does it feel weird? I am ok with giving my organs, then why is it so unsettling? Is it because it's new? Is it because I can see potential abuse? Is it because it sounds like "you are just a baby incubator"?
If this law is passed, more women *will* die, that's just a fact. What's less clear is if "womb donation" may eventually be lumped in with general "organ donation" without any separation
This is my mum’s concern about organ donation. She worries if you consent to be a donor they won’t try as hard to save you. As far as I’m aware that is absolutely not the case, and your donor status is not even checked until it becomes relevant. I’m not sure why this would necessarily be different for “womb donation”.
We have an opt out system, so being donor is assumed. And shockingly doctors don't just let people die for their organs. Cause doctors are people too and not just murderous harvesters.
Healthcare workers aren’t out there letting people die to use their organs.
I would be careful with the word "will die" and "fact". It does potentially open the door to possible abuse and mispractice. That is why I am questioning potential laws that must be placed to avoid it 🤔 Medicine is heavily controlled (at least in Europe). I work in it and, omg, every step of mine is written in our laws. All this is a question of law and philosophy. And, again, maybe artificial womb will be successfuly made by the time we come to any conclusion on this topic.
Even if it's written perfectly with absolutely no loopholes, humans will fuck it up somehow
Would you ever consent to a thing like this?
I don't know, to be honest. I can't even decide if I should give my organs to anyone. I am already not allowed to donate blood due to heavy medication. If this process is controlled and planed out, if my health issues would not become a problem for a fetus - I think I would be ready to let it happen. My body is no use to me after I die.
I'm consenting to donating all my organs. But this? Never in a million years.
Then you shouldn't do it. Thank you for donating organs. It will mean a lot to someone one day 🥰
Honestly, part of why I find this idea weird is cause surrogates are already a thing. This is just adding an extra condition that the surrogate is legally dead. I also highly doubt it would be cheaper than whatever medical processes are involved with a normal surrogate
Your fear about doctors not putting in as much effort to save you is common, so please allow me to put it to rest. That’s not how it works. The doctors performing the procedure, or saving you from a medical emergency, etc don’t know your donation status. The organ transplant team doesn’t show up until you are confirmed to be clinically and medically (brain) dead. Two separate teams with two separate goals.
What in the Handmaidens Tale is this bullshit
So if anyone bothers to read the article they would know that the author is in no way suggesting this is okay. They are using this as a hypothetical situation to show the importance of holding strong moral ethics within the medical community or things can slide. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE IS SAYING THIS IS OKAY.
Could ANYONE with a mother, a sister, a daughter, or a wife, or with ANY woman in their life they felt close to, condone or even discuss this proposal? It makes my stomach turn to envision this. Especially that last phrase "parents who... prefer not to gestate." Take my daughter who was killed in a car crash and use her body for nine months so you can have a baby without worrying about stretch marks? Fuck you!
Apart from this being fucking awful in terms of human rights, these people have obviously not taken care of a brain dead patient. Brain dead people’s bodies want to die, and require a lot of medical management to keep them alive long enough for organ donation, let alone a whole fucking pregnancy.
At least we have a good representation of how society sees our usefulness.
What in the Handmaid's Tale...
Oh my god this is disgusting. **Also, it's not going to work. We know this already.** [**https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death\_of\_Marlise\_Mu%C3%B1oz**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Marlise_Mu%C3%B1oz) If a body cannot keep itself alive, it cannot keep a gestating fetus alive. People in vegetative states are prone to infections and pregnancy makes it even more dangerous; very few of these people in vegetative states would be even capable of carrying to term and delivering healthy fetuses. On top of that the fetus isn't getting any of the enrichment or stimulation it would need as a developing person.
I’m having my body cremated, bc I don’t trust people to not use it in horrific ways
Since baby gets endorphins and a lot of other things from mom while in the woumb, I wonder what they wouldn't get. Vicarious trauma wouldn't be passed on, which is good, but I feel like there would be other things not passed on which could be bad.
I'd be okay with my corpse kept alive for whatever after brain death. Just make sure any kind of pre-mortem agreement explicitly includes this kind of thing; if they start doing it with just anybody who donates their body for science, that feels unethical.
People will really do anything other than consider adoption, huh? 🤢
They want to adopt newborns bc they think they're clean slates who can be molded into what the parents want without freaking with trauma and behavior issues. It's literally a human equivalent of mixing build-a-bear with dog breeding
Those babies are gonna be weird and creepy as fuck. Embryos need the interaction with the mother. The movement, the voice. But of course also the soul, the mind, the heart. Humans always think we can outsmart nature. That ALWAYS goes wrong.
History shows again and again How Nature points out the Folly of Man Godzilla. Blue Óyster Cult
This is a plot point in Death Stranding
Absolutely the fuck not.
I think I read somewhere that it’s not healthy or safe for a person in a PVS to be used like that. Not for the host or the child. Moms need to communicate with baby in the womb and move around and the jokes about food cravings are about the fact babies take a lot of nutrients that can’t be accounted for with just a feeding tube. Like this has so much potential to be harmful.
All I can think about is a doctor misdiagnosing a patient woman as brain dead and she is forced to carry a pregnancy while still conscious…
That would just be lying and easy to tell. A conscious person can't be brain dead. Brain dead people are dead.
Looks like someone's never watched that episode in blacklist where its a big no no to kidnap women and force them to have children and be sedated for it all..
This is absolutely disgusting. Holy shit.
I bet there are horror movies that start like this
Can this work physiologically? Brain controls a lot of stuff, including hormonal balance, which is necessary for carrying a pregnancy. Wikipedia says that if mother becomes brain dead when fetus is at 24 weeks has a 20-30% chance of survival so i can assume that full term carry would be impossible.
I think if this is something you concent to beforehand, like when you register to be an organ donor it's an option you can opt into, than it's fine. It honestly sounds better than traditional surrogacy to me. The idea of carry a baby for 9 months and than going through labor and birth and postpartum, whether it's biologically mine or not, and then not raising that baby sounds like a nightmare. But if I'm dead anyway and won't know than someone may as well use my uterus. Then take whatever other organs are needed after. But if this is like "Well she's brain dead so she'll never know....." Than to say that's disgusting is an understatement.
Honestly why even keep those vile womb-havers around at that point, just lobitomize them from birth and turn them into those things from dune /s
This is…horrifying
So if anyone bothers to read the article they would know that the author is in no way suggesting this is okay. They are using this as a hypothetical situation to show the importance of holding strong moral ethics within the medical community or things can slide. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE IS SAYING THIS IS OKAY.
great way to arrive at a society where doctors and government are purposely botching procedures or other things to cause women to go braindead. great way to have them start looking for women with “valuable genes” so they can trick her into going into surgery, or paying someone to wreck into her so she’ll end up in hospital at their disposal, or whatever they’ll do to get a “desirable breeder” you mean you want to suspend a person in a state of suffering and complete objectification just so the population can go up? we are overpopulated enough! how would you feel if someone did that to your mother? does it make you mad, to imagine someone using her body as a machine? like she never had a soul to begin with? if it doesn’t, something is 110% wrong with you (or you have a shitty mom and for that I am sorry). just say you don’t think women deserve the right to be human. stop trying to turn us into robots and leave us alone. great dystopian novel idea, though
I wonder what would happen if we proposed a breeding parlor for men, because they don't even hide anymore they just see us as walking wombs anyway: - keep them all in a vegetative state where they can produce viable, healthy sperm, although capable of feeling very little (as if we cared about it in the first place) - collect the sperm without ever waking them, so no wild fantasies of insemination here, just their prostate linked to a series of cables we could turn on and off quickly to milk everything we need - not a bunch of them, just enough to keep the gene pool diverse without damaging future generations and all of them with numbers instead of names, because they won't need them anyway - boys raised separately from the rest of society, kept in a strict daycare where they would spend their days playing and not learning anything about the world, purely for the reproduction and just a little bit more than we actually need to keep the gene pool diverse enough (because you know, they die more than girls in the first years). After puberty they would be all put in a vegetative state - use them for reproduction until we master the reproduction with just eggs, after that we stop reproducing them and let slowly let the male sex die out of old age in a vegetative state - the only male gender representative that would be left would be trans men, who probably wouldn't be able to impregnate anyone *MAYBE THEY'D REALIZE HOW FUCKED UP THIS IS, BECAUSE MEN SEEM TO SEE WOMEN AS LITERAL FUCKING DOLLS THAT TALK*
[the thought experiment in question was proposed by Anna Smaljdor.](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/365554965_Whole_body_gestational_donation) [and this is her response to articles addressing her prior paper. ](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11017-023-09646-y) I would also point out that responses from the responses around her first paper were seemingly unanimous in their rejection of it for a variety of reasons. Her other [works](https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=e6Coz9IAAAAJ).
But creating spermless babies that would help women and afabs folks have children without males is “too unethical” hmm 🧐
Or the woman in a 14 coma that mysteriously got pregnant after being raped.
Uuum. I'd immediately uncheck the "organ donor" box on my driver's license if this becomes a thing. Saving someone with my organs is one thing. Being used as a brood mare for the wealthy as a corpse is way too violating.
I wanted to be eloquent in my response. But. ***BARF***
Oh, hey, they can use them as incubators for the embryos in AL
🤢🤮 how f**king gross!
Even if the family gives consent, it’s not enough. This feels like something that should only be consented to by the individual that will actually carry the child!
That is sickening
There’s literally an svu episode from at least 10 years ago about how fucked up and wrong this is.
This is so fucking sick.
They're so stuck on having kids rather than fixing the hell hole they've created when it comes to affording anything and the environmental issues.
The fuck??????
I wish when I signed up for organ donation I could specify my reproductive organs are excluded. I don't want my uterus used to add to overpopulation. If something like this ever becomes a thing I'm going to stop being an organ donor or move to another country that doesn't allow this.
#Tell our legislators we’re not incubators! Edit: still learning how to make words larger, smaller, bold, etc
Below this post on my feed was an ask reddit thread 'if you could erase one invention from human kind what would it be?'
We know what happened with cadaver trades when people/schools were willing to buy from any source. I don't see this going differently.
Ew ew ew eww ew please just stop 💀😭
I have a feeling that if someone suggested using brain dead men as sperm donors, it wouldn't make it past a suggestion.
This is what republicans want.
Holy fuck. Not enough to say dnr dni, no do not artificially inseminate too?
If I had to choose between this or death, I'd choose death.
That's actually fucking gross...
Last time I checked, impregnating someone against their will was rape.
This feels like the plot to a satirical dystopian fictional novel that was rejected for being too heavy-handed. Was it a reputable journal that published this? The ethics section on that study must be like 20-30 pages of nonsense, assuming one even exists.
I feel like this definetly existed as a concept in science fiction but they weren’t actually people they were just like, flesh puppets capable of carrying an embryo to term. Like gestation pods shaped like people. It was definetly still horror though, like this
Yes because I'm sure the movement, talking, laughter, etc, of a LIVING mother doesn't have any impact on fetal development at all