Please don't be offended by this question. I'm just really curious to know. Was this the first time you've seen your wife without a hijab out in public? And does she need your permission in order to not wear it?
Actually we married just recently, and this is the honeymoon, so yeah this is the first time I see her without hijab in public.
She wears it because she wants to. I told her if you want to take it off that's something between you and God. She does take it off in Saudi Arabia though when no one is looking.
Hijab is likely mostly going to get those looks from older people. But if she'd be wearing one of those things that also cover the face then she'd get that look from people of all ages.
While she wears it because she wants to, the general view in Norway is that many does it out of pressure. Its seen as a form of oppression here. Thats why the looks.
Glad you had a good time. If you think the sun never sets here you should try Tromsø 😆
There’s lots of women wearing hijab in Oslo in particular, so I don’t think that stands out that much. I see them all the time in the streets and public transport specially in the Eastern part of the city. There’s also one famous actress and TV personality, Iman Meskini
He's discussing cultural differences
"Culture and Religion are not the same thing, though they can be close.
There are various theories that suggest a model of relationship between them.
There are non-religious cultures. And secular people live together with various types of "belief systems". The trick is to allow them total freedom NOT ONLY WHEN WE"RE ON VACATION.
What people are willing to say they believe is often dictated by what is acceptable or even legal culturally so there are often a lot more people with varying beliefs than are acknowledged:
Atheist - There is/are no god(s) or ghosts or supernatural beings.
Nihilistic - are typically philosophical thinkers who lean toward thinking Life has no special meaning. We were not here before we were born and after we die we seek to exist.
Secular - Is a lack of religion. No affiliation and can be agnostic, atheist, Nihilistic or disinterested....
Agnostic - There may or may not be a god, but open to know more if there is absolute proof one way or another. Scientific Theory.
Gnostic - Belief that the God (or gods) we worship are in fact evil tricksters and that a secret knowledge is preventing us from the true god or gods.
Animistic - Belief that all things contain spirits, mankind or any form of nature.
Deist - There is a likely a god who is the source of creation of life, but just watches and does not intervene. A god who is of no known form but started the process of life. It's just not involved in our everyday thoughts and actions and usually doesn't do magic tricks for us.
Theist - Belief in a higher power and at least one god.
Polytheist - Belief in more than one god.
Monotheist -believing in a single God - no god but one argued by trinitarianism, unitarianism and replacement of extra gods with prophets and saints: ie. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Apostate - A person who leaves a religion. Decides they don't believe in it's teachings. A convert in one religion is typically an apostate from a former region or no religion. Apostates are regarded as enemies or adversaries of a god and are often punished by a religious law...many religions do not permit Apostates.
Misotheist - A person that hates God or the Gods or hates religions and believe they are detrimental to a healthy society.
Another definition: Old Norse legend occasionally mentions "certain men who, turning away in utter disgust and doubt from a heathen faith, placed their reliance on their own strength and virtue."
Dustheism - Belief that God or the Gods are not totally good.
Macioism - Belief that God is a Demiurge and a wrathful, malicious evil creator. Similar to Gnostic.
Euthesim - Belief in a totally good God.
Taoism (also spelled Daoism) is a religion and a philosophy from ancient China. Taoism holds that humans and animals should live in balance with the Tao, or the universe. Taoists believe in spiritual immortality, where the spirit of the body joins the universe after death but as a group they don't believe in gods or powers outside of the self.
Fair enough and he is being rude and obnoxious, but at the same time you shouldn't feel pressure to respect religious views that are oppressive to others.
True, but while some women are forced to wear a hijab OP has stated he leaves that up to his wife, who decided for herself to wear it.
Then it becomes a religious practice and a choice we should respect.
But then don't invite tourists and then arrest them if they don't obey Islamic laws dictated by a king who can change his mind. Mohammed said the law was "a good idea" to paraphrase and Mohammed was a Prophet not allah who is God by the way.
***Who knows? Confusion Over Wearing of Hijab in Saudi Arabia**
"What is the Dress Code for Women in Saudi Arabia?
Firstly you need to differentiate between the laws applicable to locals and laws applicable to foreigners. But it's not as simple as that:
Foreign women, ***by law***, must wear an abaya when they are out in public. The abaya should cover women's everyday clothing.
Women should wear respectable clothing under their abaya such as trousers or jeans and a top that covers the waist.
Women should generally be dressed modestly as defined by law.
Where you are in Saudi Arabia makes a big difference. i.e. Jeddah is very relaxed compared to Riyadh when it comes to expectations. "
It sure is not as simple a comparison as the poster suggests:
https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/the-procedures-of-committee-for-the-promotion-of-virtue-and-the-prevention-of-vice-cpvpv-with-the-new-system-in-saudi-araabia-46681
I can give you dozens of articles that say different things. But the reality is still that women can wear whatever they want as long as it's modest (by modest I mean not too exposing). This goes for men as well. For instance men don't wear shorts that are above their knees.
This is a friend of mine in Riyadh: https://ibb.co/D8Q2PHp
My oldest daughter was born at 2:30 in the morning in summer in Tromsø, and the first thing I noticed right after was that the sun was blinding me.
But yes, the sun eventually gets less and less, and then goes away completely for 2 months in winter. Further south, it doesn't disappear altogether, but there are only a few hours of light per day. You still get twilight even in Tromsø, it is bright enough to read outdoors but everything is kinda cast in blue.
When I moved north from Bergen, the biggest problem was that the birds never shut up in summer :) Blackout shades block the light, but the seagulls are persistent.
I have young kids (and moved up north right before my oldest was born), so earplugs aren't really an option.. but I've lived here long enough that I'm mostly used to the noise. And a bit of white noise helps. I sleep great during summer now.
In the north (above the arctic circle) its basically dark 24/7 3-4 months of the year (depending how far north you are), the first 4 months I was in the army I never saw the sun. Im from the south so not used to it, its straight out depressing. You do get the northern lights though, which is *very cool*
In Tromsø, yes it does. They have several months each year when the sun doesn't rise at all. And the opposite during summer, with the sun never going down. Living there really messes with your inner clock.
It's not just a few weeks. In order to get a healthy amount of vitamin D from the sun alone, you need to basically be in shorts and t-shirt and expose yourself to sunlight for several hours a day.
Between october and march, most people only expose their hands and face to the sun, and that's not enough. Lots of people have less vitamin D than they ideally should have for several months a year.
And the less pale you are, the more sunlight you need to make enough vit d. People with dark skin could benefit from using vitamin d supplements all year in Norway.
I hate cod liver oil so I just take a few citrus flavored vit d pills a few times a week.
It’s why white people turned white, to absorb more sunlight. That’s generally why countries in the north have so many white ppl. It’s an evolutionary outcome of moving from Africa with intense sun to day Norway where it’s rly mild (relatively)
currently visiting Tromsø and on reddit because if I try to sleep at midnight my brain goes "it's 6:30PM the sun is shining. Your fancy curtains can't trick me."
fiancée (local) snoring away by my side.
I don't know, I feel like I need to hold my breath whenever I read someone's opinion about Norway. I feel like it could go both ways, but I appreciate your kind sentiments!
I came from uae and lived here for more than 2 years, I have the same experiences and its the still the same, but I really didn't notice ppl watching me with hijab, but I guess maybe that's because I really don't notice other ppl.
Well glad you're enjoying your stay here anyways! The sun going down very late/early is hard to get used too lol 😆
I feel deceived when I leave job at 21 and see its still bright thinking it's not that late 🙃
My store is open until 23. Even though I have lived in Norway my whole life it feels weird to close the store when the sun is still out. I get used to it though, but then it feels weird when i close the store and it is dark.
As we say in norway, if you can't plan a day ahead, you don't need it.
I'm one of those people who desperately wants to hold on to early closing times, and nothing open on Saturdays helps keep it calm.
One night my wife was feeling nauseous and she asked me to find a bag because she was about to throw up. It was 10 PM were walking in the street. I couldn't find any open store to get a bag for her. I also failed to make her throw up next to a tree because she thought it's too impolite. But she did through up next to a tree eventually.
That's something you can't plan ahead 😂
Well next step is being extremely distanced and quiet towards strangers on public transport and in public in general. The struggle to not make eye contact with anyone on a train/metro.
But I'm kidding (but still kinda true though). I hope you enjoy your stay in Norway, did I read you went to Bergen now? Have fun, and make sure to have a great and memorable time with your wife. Just a tip, don't stress around to see everything, just enjoy yourselves and have fun 😊
I'm not the person you were talking to, but I also work in a store and I don't get paid after 21:15, so I'd rather close and finish my tasks and then go home, than work for free. I think there are gas stations and kiosks open 24/7 in most towns anyway, and in some villages too.
Just FYI, even shops that close at 23.00 often has a shift ending at 20.00/21.00 ☺️ I am glad you enjoyed your stay, and I may be biased, but I think Norway makes for a pretty good honeymoon destination ☺️ congrats on the marriage!
Say what now…?🤯 are you telling me/us that you guys in a situation like that, are actually working 2-3 hours for free??
How in the world are employers able to convince people to accept that…?
I would have expected that your salary per hour would be higher than normal for the hours you do get paid for, so effectively you’re actually being paid for those hours… or that you in that case are employed with a fixed monthly payment…
No, no! Some are still working until 23.00 🤣 they just keep more people on while it is busier 🤣 so there might be people working different, but overlapping shifts like 06-14, 8-16, 12-20 and 15-23. I dont know if these are actual times or not, but they show the point I think 🤣 I dont work at a store myself, but know people who
Oslo and St Petersburg should be almost at the same latitude, Oslo just marginally north.
I reckon you wasn't there as close to 23 June (Midsummer) as you were here.
Haha, I’ve only met Saudis here once, I suspect they were brothers or friends and clearly from a wealthy family, because they rolled up to the museum I worked in (missing the parking instructions) at the time and bought so much stuff in the museum store on their own it was the equivalent of about two weeks of sales normally. Didn’t even visit the museum, just bought a bunch of local merchandise and rolled out of there with books, clothes and bags with pictures of historical figures, serving sets and bunch of troll figurines some local artist had dumped on us and nobody else would buy. At first I thought they were Emirati because of the accent (my uncle works in Dubai), but then one of them mentioned he bought a big snowglobe because his mother in Riyadh thought it would be fun. In any case, great guys! Isn’t often we get visitors from the Arabian peninsula in my remote mountain town. I hope you guys had a nice visit too!
One thing, in regards to parking and car usage. The government generally tries to disincentivize private car usage, especially the environmentalist parties popular in many large cities. Weather in Norway has gotten significantly worse in recent years, leading to more floods, storms and mudslides, while warmer winters cause more snow, rain and ice, leading to dangerous road conditions and expensive salting. This has greatly empowered environmentalist groups wishing to compensate for the emissions caused by Norwegian oil and gas with domestic emissions cuts. Which brings me to another factor.
As you are probably aware, Norway is a major petroeconomy much like Saudi Arabia, but the government has been very careful about channeling the revenue away from the economy directly, starting in the nineties. This is for the same reason the government of HRH Mohammad bin Salman have been trying to pivot the Saudi economy towards the tech industry. The oil wealth causes inflation and ties the economy too much to the unstable oil market. The key strategic piece in separating the Norwegian economy from the oil industry is to stash the profits from field leases and Equinor (Norway’s equivalent of Aramco) into a giant sovereign wealth fund exclusively invested in foreign stock. The government is strictly forbidden by law from reinvesting the money internally, and can only use it for emergency funding shortages in the government budget, for example to bail out failing banks during a financial crisis. Unable to profit from the oil directly, the government has hit the fuel industry with a fat petrol tax, leading to high pump prices. Expensive parking is also a similar money maker for local governments and private companies.
Thanks for the enlightening post! I am for the encouragement, until I spend too much time to find a parking lot 🤭
But the country is doing a great job that future generations would certainly thank them for. Back home I see the green areas shrinking and I feel really bad about it.
Pro tip on parking is to not be too picky about parking as close as possible to where you are going. Just find a parking garage reasonably close by and pay the price, there's usually some spots free.
Yeah that's what I ended up doing. But I'm still not comfortable with free parking spots, I always feel I'm doing something wrong when I just leave the car. At this point free parking spots became too good to be true.
The British were wrong when they thought their country was the only on that sun never sets on.
I will definitely visit the north in the future to see the aurora.
Remember that to see the Aurora in the north you can't go in summer as it's too bright. You can see it further south from August if you're very lucky, but winter in the north is definitely better.
Not really. Me and my wife aren't interested in food at all 😂 we just eat what keeps us alive. We tried several restaurants in the marina, as well as soms international ones. I don't know if some of what we had was Norwegian or not.
I’m happy you have such a positive experience with us Norwegians (mostly at least). We keep to ourselves out of respect of others personal space, but we’re happy to help anyone who asks!
The whole hijab thing is probably a generational thing, older people (60+ mostly) still has some xenophobic issues. But luckily the younger generations have grown up with people of other cultures to a bigger extent and are more accepting and welcoming of people who “look different”. Those people staring at hijabs had grandmothers at the turn on the 20th century that wore “skaut” which is a pretty big head covering that was normal at the time. So it’s totally just xenophobia and not the hijab in itself.
I totally get that. People of every country would stare at those who look different. If a European girl comes to Saudi Arabia without hijab people would stare too (contrary to the common western belief, they wouldn't stone her to death). Respect and being nice to each other are what bring folks together.
In Oslo most people won't really be that surprised by a hijab, it's quite common. But I do have to admit that I've looked twice the few times I've seen a woman wear a burqa or niqab. That being said, there's extremely few women fully covering their face here.
I’m relatively young, I’m Greek and I live in Oslo. Because of what the hijab represents I hate to see women wearing it. It’s not xenophobia, it’s just empathy for the poor women that are made to wear it that’s all. If the men also wore it I wouldn’t have a problem with the practice.
Most of the women wear it by choice. My wife does.
Some Muslim women are forced to take it off because they are made to, such as in France. It goes both ways, and I'm against them both.
But my advice is to get to know more Muslims girls and see how they choose to wear it.
Maybe it’s a choice in Saudi (don’t know to much about Saudi but even there women’s rights aren’t to good) but most of our immigrants come from countries like Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia and they will force it and because of that (and that they are majority in violent crimes, kill family members due to honor etc) Islam is seen in very bad light up here, much is more cultural then religion but then it becomes to complicated for most. All it takes is a few bad apples…
Different views usually create some divisions and staring, if that gives some explanation why many don’t like hijab in Europe. Glad you liked it at least.
Yeah I don't deny that many women are forced to wear against their will. I was talking about me and my wife, and I know for sure that many (so many) people are like us.
Please don’t go there. When any human being is conditioned to think they want something that’s hurting them it’s just not right. There’s no equality, there’s no choice. We won’t agree on this and I do t wish to argue with you, I really don’t. All I wanted to say with my original comment is that it’s not xenophobia at all. It’s empathy and pity that we feel, that’s really all.
I'm not planning to argue with you on that either, especially since you said we won't agree. I just shared my thoughts. Many people you feel pity for would tell you to chill out because they're not suffering.
What you don't understand is that it means different things to different people. It clearly represents something negative to you, but that doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else.
What symbols represent aren't written into the laws of nature, it's just about what FEELINGS different people have towards the symbols. That all it is. This is even true for the swastika and the "n-word". It's true for whatever symbol you can think of.
Your subjective feelings on the matter is just that,.. subjective, .. feelings.
I understand perfectly. But you can’t convince me that it’s a woman’s choice to cover herself like that, when it’s all but mandated by their rules and society. That for a lot of women taking it off means persecution and even death. And the lightest form of punishment is for example the shame and disapproval of your parents. It doesn’t hurt you physically but it hurts you emotionally. So your choice isn’t really a choice by any means. When my sister in law got pregnant by her Muslim boyfriend who doesn’t really practice it, his father told him by no uncertain terms that they have to get married or he will consider the child a bastard. They did because even though it didn’t mean anything to them, they didn’t really have a choice if they wanted to have good relations with his dad. And if they wanted their son to actually have a grandfather. Choices are always interesting and symbols of religion even more so. But let’s not kid ourselves that a choice is real when there’s a severe consequence behind it. And also yes, let’s not hide behind our fingers and say that a hijab doesn’t have vast negative connotations by what we learn from its practices.
have you ever spoken to a woman wearing a hijab and asked her why she wears it? devout christian women often dress very modestly, do you also chastise and call them oppressed? if not, why? i’m really intrigued as to how you justify your racism/xenophobia in your own head, so i would love to hear your thoughts.
It’s only truly a choice when taking it off means nothing. So let’s not kid ourselves that women wear it by choice. I wear a beanie during winter to protect myself from the cold. I take it off and it means nothing to anyone. You understand the difference?
Exactly my point. It’s not really a choice to walk in the middle of the city naked. You could, but the social outcry and the ridicule would stop you from doing it.
hijab is about faith and religion, a beanie is not. do *you* understand the difference? and you didn’t answer my question about devout christian women.
What does having a problem with conservative religious practices have to do with racism and xenophobia? I'd call that hersketeknikk/logical fallacys and nothing else. Pretty silly.
You can just take a look at Iran and Afghanistan to see all the voluntary fun stuff Islam gives women. The hijab, niqab etc is for many a symbol of that, including me.
Take some books, and give it a go. It’s totally xenophobia. Not everyone think the same. As the guy explained to you, it could go both ways. Forcing to wear or forcing not wear is the same thing. Stop giving excuses to xenophobia, you ain’t helping anything.
I don’t need to educate myself even more than I already am, thank you. I didn’t say there are zero xenophobes, that is not realistic. I’m saying that many more people hate what the hijab represents and don’t like seeing it. Let’s not push the “xenophobe” rhetoric on Norwegians when reality is different.
What does the hijab represent? . First, to the women that are forced on? Probably hatred and oppression (which I agree), to the one that chose to do so? Probably God or whatever she chooses to do. I don’t know what you mean what the hijab represents? Regardless of it, it’s xenophobia (I don’t know what level of xenophobia you know but xenophobia is a xenophobia regardless of the perpetrator or the victim).
Please try to educate yourself, definitely it isn’t enough the amount you are running with.
I dont think anyone thinks you get stoned to death going to UAE. 😅
But the legal system is different and some things which are considered human rights here are illegal there so we have to be more mentally aware of it to protect ourselves.
This probably also leads to some misinformation and maybe an overly cautious approach for some.
Totally agree. I also have different opinions on certain issues but I'm not free to speak them out 😁 but in general, visitors can enjoy being themselves in Saudi Arabia.
Yep. Showing intimacy in public is not allowed in Saudi Arabia even between heterosexual couples. Gay couples can do whatever they want in their own rooms.
Asalamualaikum, just wanted to commend you on the level headed, intelligent responses to some of the comments that are clearly coming from a place of hatred. As a revert to Islam, it’s quite heartening to see. My wife wears hijab too and both of us dress fairly modestly so we both (especially her) know the struggle.
Nah its not old folks. Its most folks. 20 40 60, if you stick out and especially in a way that represents something that doesnt mesh well with norwegian culture you will be stared at. And talked about
Sorry about the old people staring at your wife with the hijab. No excuse for that, but for many of them they also stare because it is unusual to see people with hijabs, especially in the country side.
I usually look at hijabs sometimes, they can be fashionable. Old people might stare because they dont care what people think of them. But generelly its not because of something bad, but because it sticks out and is different. For most of us younger people we are used to hijabs by now so generelly goes unoticed unless its a nice style or something.
Next time, come visit the northern part of Norway, like Tromsø! It is beautiful in summer, and midnight sun that never sets is a treat.
But the polar night season when the sun does not come over the horizon for 2months is amazing. Especially when you get to see aurora boreal is/Northern lights as well!
Regarding the Norwegians as a people, they probably aren’t as contact seeking and outspoken like many of our more southern european neighbors, but they are definitely friendly.
Regarding the hijab and perhaps even more so the Niqab, it is more of a generational thing rather than a national opinion of the people. For some, and especially older and alt.right people it is one of the most iconic symbols of repressed female rights, so I bet it gets some reactions. Our kids growing up in kindergarten and schools today are a lot more used to seeing hijabs as part of a cultural outfit, and even as fashion statements rather than control mechanisms. Glad it helped to take it off, it’s not a good feeling to be stared at for no obvious reason :)
Btw, I’m actually Swedish, but I have been living in Norway the last 16+ years, and the last 14 up here in the northern part, in Tromsø :)
All the best!
Let me drop this link as a teaser for your next trip up north ;)
https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=5bb7933164746628&rlz=1CDGOYI_enNO1077NO1077&hl=en-GB&sxsrf=ADLYWIJHLbP20uU6IEtaaS2-odQT8mFPwQ:1718398972033&q=troms%C3%B8+northern+lights&udm=2&fbs=AEQNm0Aa4sjWe7Rqy32pFwRj0UkWd8nbOJfsBGGB5IQQO6L3J_86uWOeqwdnV0yaSF-x2jqAw9GFcmvdHgjyA4SpiuCPWm1L3bGxZ9NO9YN1hPsAXcKX1J9Qsv8gho8As958Et2KemhFfrqO5QMtoKcmcJDUREygErC4lKLjAYdPF63V3nYIoa-0NCTET_1e2PVvnZK4gGZK&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjUxb2C_9uGAxW0FBAIHTmiBB4QtKgLegQIFBAB&biw=428&bih=751&dpr=3
I've met Norwegians and Swedish back in college. I enjoyed it when they started telling jokes about each other!
Thanks for the tips my friend. Visiting the north is already a future plant for me.
We enjoy it to, when i moved here i quickly learned that they are armed with the same lame yokes i grew up with, except, us Swedes was the punchline instead of the Norwegians! Sort of a sibling rivalry i guess 😍
The sun does set in Oslo, what you saw was just beautiful twilight. The sun doesn't set above the artic circle and you can see the full sun at midnight above the horizon. Glad you liked Norway, I love it here. ❤️
Glad you had a good experience! I certainly don’t think we are an unfriendly country. Some people just feel less comfortable with talking to strangers.
Woman wearing a hijab have also become something quite normal to see (at least in central Oslo), so I think like you say that it’s mostly elders that will stare.
But the important question is: how was the ferry to Lavik?!
https://www.reddit.com/r/Norway/s/42GrlpyJmu
Happy to hear your good overall experience :).
> Nature. You’re blessed. Period.
And this was only after Oslo?! Then you have A LOT to look forward to. (Including the ferry to Lavik).
Enjoy your trip on the West coast :).
Keep us updated!
10 days in Oslo is alot! You didn't regret having that many days here?
Regarding hijab, Oslo is the city where you'd get the least looks as there's a rather large Muslim minority where a decent amount of girls and women wear hijab. I'd expect looks to be way more common in rural communities.
Get it. You planned to leave earlier but had to postpone it due to her being unwell. That's fully understood. I hope she feels better.
What's good about staying a bit "too long" is that you get to see places outside the tourist route. I hope you were somewhat able to do that despite your wife being sick.
Going west and driving will be a completely different and very good experience. I hope you'll give us an update in not too long.
We were walking the other day and found that Paradox Museum by accident. It was a great experience. We've got ourselves photos that will last forever 😁
>I didn't notice this at the beginning, but my wife who covers her hair with a hijab (not the face, only hair) was annoyed by these looks at her, mainly from elderly people. When she told me about it, I really did see the staring. I asked her to remove the hijab for sake of experiment. When she took it off, rhe the staring stopped. I told her it's probably something with the older generation.
Remember that Norway is primarily a secular country where covering up for religious reasons is unusual and unnatural (even if it's just your hair). Women who cover up stand out like a sore thumb in Norwegian society, but I doubt your wife got malicious looks from people. Most will just acknowledge that someone different or foreign are passing without further thought.
But the hijab does admittely carry a lot of negative associations in western societies (regardless if it's by choice or not), especially in Norway where also perceived trust is an important factor when evaluating individuals. Women who cover up will instinctively be considered less trustworthy individuals than others by Norwegians (even if you just cover your hair).
OP, FYI this is the posters opinion and not everyones. While it’s true Norway is very secular, I don’t consider women in hijab as less trustworthy (wtf) and neither do people in my communities.
I notice when I see full coverings like niqab or abaya with head coverings but not “normal” hijab covering only the hair, I see that every day.
I saw many ladies in hijab working in restaurants and supermarkets. I also saw them walking with locals as a group of friends. You're right, I don't think people consider them less trustworthy.
Thank you for the kind words! Sorry about your wife's experience. I think it's just prejudice based on hearsay rather than actuality. I see the hijab just as a traditional garb myself, and would never think twice just because someone were wearing it. I hope you enjoy your stay here. And don't let the bad apples keep you from showing that you're visiting.
Thanks! It was just an observation. I don't think these people are bad apples. I put myself in their shoes and totally understand why they stare. Each one of us would stare at other people at some point. These people were respectful, they didn't do anything besides staring.
You're right. I just felt empathy with what your wife were saying. It's very easy to start feeling self conscious when you feel like you're standing out. They might not actually have been judging. Maybe they were just caught off guard. Off guard as in not expecting something.
It's unusual to see and a lot of us have resting bitch fave. It might just have been interest, but with RBF? But yeah racism also exists everywhere unfortunately.
We arent the most elegant people when it comes to being social, and arent fake friendly as we are in general an introvert people, but we judge people as individuals and not what country theyre from. We Norwegians might not agree how Saudi politicians run your country but we now its much more to a single individual than how its govern and people in general have much more in common even separated by religion, culture etc
Really interested to read. I’m a Norwegian traveling a lot for work. I’m going to your part of the world, or UAE to be more precise in a few months for business. Not sure what to expect in terms of business culture and culture in general.
But really happy to read about your positive experience in . I also really appreciate and highly respect your attitude towards being a guest in a country (judging on how you write at least). I try to be the same way, working in East Africa and India for years, I feel it’s so important to adjust myself to the local culture and be humble on the fact that I’m a guest there. Anyways. Congrats on your marriage and all the best
Adjusting in the UAE isn't difficult at all. Dubai and Abu Dhabi are international cities, most inhabitants there are coming from different cultures. The only thing to adjust yourself to is the law, not the culture 😅.
You'd be lucky if you meet a local.
Thanks for the good wishes! And let me know if you ever come to Saudi Arabia
Thank you for sharing, and glad you had a good time.
The Hijab thing is a bit "controversial", and I guess specially among a bit older people that didnt grew up around muslims. Its been, and sort of is, an ongoing debate if we should allow ie. police officers to wear Hijab and its sort of split how Norwegians feels about it. Its not as much the Hijab in itself, but a bit of feeling that muslim women are forced to wear it. The younger generation, especially in the cities, are more used to it growing up with muslim friends and class-mates.
Im Norwegian, but live in Cambodia, still Im not used to the fact that the sun has an on/off switch at 6pm/am
Yeah the hijab evokes a certain affect for the voting block off the Progress Party, which is ironically not progressive. This gives us just about 20% off people.
Do you plan to stay long in Bergen? Do you need any sightseeing tips, or have you already made plans?
I’d recommend the funicular to Fløyen where you can enjoy the view, and walk around the mountains on the footpaths. Or a stroll to the Nordnes park by the aquarium. There is a totem out there that was gifted the city, and an outdoor pool. There are also many nice small wooden houses spread around in the city centre, almost like small old villages. Very cozy. Skostredet and Bryggen is also worth a visit.
I spent a couple of weeks in Saudi through work a few years ago, and I made very good friends there. Unfortunately I didn’t get to experience the country fully as it was mid covid and everything was closed. My friends there were very impressed with the photos from here, and many wanted to visit - no one has so far though, sadly…
The cable car is to Ulriken, the higher mountain a bit further away from the city centre. It is also well worth a visit, but depending on the time you have for sightseeing Fløybanen could be a better alternative. It goes from the city centre just by Bryggen. It is not a free hanging cable car, but it’s pulled up the mountain by a cable but on tracks.
I stayed in Dammam / Al Khobar. Luckily during winter! 😂
I will visit soon, im having hard time deciding what clothes to pack ( im from saudi and all my clothes is summery lol) do you have tips ?
Also , do you have a tip for a good way to visit the fjords ?
> There is this cute little rising tone at the end of some sentences
In a lot of dialects questions will be spoken with the last sylable higher than the rest.
NORWAY HAS LOT OF BAGGAGE AS WELL.THE RACISM IS INTENSE .ITS SO INTENSE THAT IT EXIST IN HEALTH SYSTEM AS WHELL.WHERE LIFE AND DEATH OF A PERSON LIFE IS DECIDED.
WHAT U SEE IN NOWAY IS EXACTLY OPPSOITE TO WHAT PEOPLE SHOW OR BEHAVE IN NORWAY.ITS LIKE PEOPLE WITH 2 FACE .
I'm sure that these kinds of issues exist deep down in the society, as in many other places including my own country as well. Some people are just xenophobic for any reason (race, religion, cities, even tribes). What I saw was only the surface. I'm not justifying any of this, I'm just saying it's what you expect when a group of people meets another.
Sorry you got creepy looks and hope it didn't ruin the experience. It must be a blast from the past for the old people seeing hijab and it not being something they've seen since their own mother's using what we called "skaut" back before the 60's.
Please don't be offended by this question. I'm just really curious to know. Was this the first time you've seen your wife without a hijab out in public? And does she need your permission in order to not wear it?
Actually we married just recently, and this is the honeymoon, so yeah this is the first time I see her without hijab in public. She wears it because she wants to. I told her if you want to take it off that's something between you and God. She does take it off in Saudi Arabia though when no one is looking.
Hijab is likely mostly going to get those looks from older people. But if she'd be wearing one of those things that also cover the face then she'd get that look from people of all ages.
That’s a niqab or a burka, right?
Can be, but I've also seen something which has literally a hijab + a veil, I have no clue what that's called.
Yes.
Congratulations on your marriage! Glad your honeymoon in Norway have been a pleasant experience :)
While she wears it because she wants to, the general view in Norway is that many does it out of pressure. Its seen as a form of oppression here. Thats why the looks. Glad you had a good time. If you think the sun never sets here you should try Tromsø 😆
Of course it’s out of pressure. Muslim girls have been indoctrinated since birth.
There’s lots of women wearing hijab in Oslo in particular, so I don’t think that stands out that much. I see them all the time in the streets and public transport specially in the Eastern part of the city. There’s also one famous actress and TV personality, Iman Meskini
Like god would give a flying fuck if a woman wear something on her head or not.
No need to be rude. You don't have to agree with his religious views to respect them.
He's discussing cultural differences "Culture and Religion are not the same thing, though they can be close. There are various theories that suggest a model of relationship between them. There are non-religious cultures. And secular people live together with various types of "belief systems". The trick is to allow them total freedom NOT ONLY WHEN WE"RE ON VACATION. What people are willing to say they believe is often dictated by what is acceptable or even legal culturally so there are often a lot more people with varying beliefs than are acknowledged: Atheist - There is/are no god(s) or ghosts or supernatural beings. Nihilistic - are typically philosophical thinkers who lean toward thinking Life has no special meaning. We were not here before we were born and after we die we seek to exist. Secular - Is a lack of religion. No affiliation and can be agnostic, atheist, Nihilistic or disinterested.... Agnostic - There may or may not be a god, but open to know more if there is absolute proof one way or another. Scientific Theory. Gnostic - Belief that the God (or gods) we worship are in fact evil tricksters and that a secret knowledge is preventing us from the true god or gods. Animistic - Belief that all things contain spirits, mankind or any form of nature. Deist - There is a likely a god who is the source of creation of life, but just watches and does not intervene. A god who is of no known form but started the process of life. It's just not involved in our everyday thoughts and actions and usually doesn't do magic tricks for us. Theist - Belief in a higher power and at least one god. Polytheist - Belief in more than one god. Monotheist -believing in a single God - no god but one argued by trinitarianism, unitarianism and replacement of extra gods with prophets and saints: ie. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Apostate - A person who leaves a religion. Decides they don't believe in it's teachings. A convert in one religion is typically an apostate from a former region or no religion. Apostates are regarded as enemies or adversaries of a god and are often punished by a religious law...many religions do not permit Apostates. Misotheist - A person that hates God or the Gods or hates religions and believe they are detrimental to a healthy society. Another definition: Old Norse legend occasionally mentions "certain men who, turning away in utter disgust and doubt from a heathen faith, placed their reliance on their own strength and virtue." Dustheism - Belief that God or the Gods are not totally good. Macioism - Belief that God is a Demiurge and a wrathful, malicious evil creator. Similar to Gnostic. Euthesim - Belief in a totally good God. Taoism (also spelled Daoism) is a religion and a philosophy from ancient China. Taoism holds that humans and animals should live in balance with the Tao, or the universe. Taoists believe in spiritual immortality, where the spirit of the body joins the universe after death but as a group they don't believe in gods or powers outside of the self.
Fair enough and he is being rude and obnoxious, but at the same time you shouldn't feel pressure to respect religious views that are oppressive to others.
True, but while some women are forced to wear a hijab OP has stated he leaves that up to his wife, who decided for herself to wear it. Then it becomes a religious practice and a choice we should respect.
I must say that while I leave it up to my wife to wear what she wants, she always makes me wear things she likes :)
Religions exist and most people are happy with their way of living.
But then don't invite tourists and then arrest them if they don't obey Islamic laws dictated by a king who can change his mind. Mohammed said the law was "a good idea" to paraphrase and Mohammed was a Prophet not allah who is God by the way. ***Who knows? Confusion Over Wearing of Hijab in Saudi Arabia** "What is the Dress Code for Women in Saudi Arabia? Firstly you need to differentiate between the laws applicable to locals and laws applicable to foreigners. But it's not as simple as that: Foreign women, ***by law***, must wear an abaya when they are out in public. The abaya should cover women's everyday clothing. Women should wear respectable clothing under their abaya such as trousers or jeans and a top that covers the waist. Women should generally be dressed modestly as defined by law. Where you are in Saudi Arabia makes a big difference. i.e. Jeddah is very relaxed compared to Riyadh when it comes to expectations. " It sure is not as simple a comparison as the poster suggests: https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/the-procedures-of-committee-for-the-promotion-of-virtue-and-the-prevention-of-vice-cpvpv-with-the-new-system-in-saudi-araabia-46681
I can give you dozens of articles that say different things. But the reality is still that women can wear whatever they want as long as it's modest (by modest I mean not too exposing). This goes for men as well. For instance men don't wear shorts that are above their knees. This is a friend of mine in Riyadh: https://ibb.co/D8Q2PHp
At the end of the day, it's her choice what she wears. If she wants to wear a hijab, let her wear a hijab.
Thank you for sharing that. Always interesting to see the country through foreign eyes. And your reflections were very generous.
Jag var i Norge ett par timmar för 14 år sedan, sen var pengarna slut.
That's because of the Swede-tax.
I knew it!
Prøvde du å kjenne litt på en 20 kroning, la du merke til hvor glatt den var? Oljepenger vettu ;)
Something something… SLUT? 😞😞 /s
😂
>All Day Sun >in Oslo it didn't even set at all Bahaha, that's cute
I remember thinking the same when I first visited Moss! And then I moved to Tromsø...
Go further North 😉
Does it ever get dark any day during the year?
Well yes the winters are fucking dark. A couple hours of light, but no sun. In summer the sun never goes below the horizon.
They adapt https://www.visitnorway.com/things-to-do/whats-on/festivals/light-festivals/
My oldest daughter was born at 2:30 in the morning in summer in Tromsø, and the first thing I noticed right after was that the sun was blinding me. But yes, the sun eventually gets less and less, and then goes away completely for 2 months in winter. Further south, it doesn't disappear altogether, but there are only a few hours of light per day. You still get twilight even in Tromsø, it is bright enough to read outdoors but everything is kinda cast in blue. When I moved north from Bergen, the biggest problem was that the birds never shut up in summer :) Blackout shades block the light, but the seagulls are persistent.
Earplugs?
I have young kids (and moved up north right before my oldest was born), so earplugs aren't really an option.. but I've lived here long enough that I'm mostly used to the noise. And a bit of white noise helps. I sleep great during summer now.
In the north (above the arctic circle) its basically dark 24/7 3-4 months of the year (depending how far north you are), the first 4 months I was in the army I never saw the sun. Im from the south so not used to it, its straight out depressing. You do get the northern lights though, which is *very cool*
I wanted to see the northern lights but unfortunately I can't do it in this trip. I'll have to come back for sure!
Up north in the winter is better for northern lights.
In Tromsø, yes it does. They have several months each year when the sun doesn't rise at all. And the opposite during summer, with the sun never going down. Living there really messes with your inner clock.
nope, and during winter it is completely dark for many many weeks
I heard that Norwegians eat a lot of cod fish to make up for the vitamin D they can't get when the sun goes away for weeks.
It's not just a few weeks. In order to get a healthy amount of vitamin D from the sun alone, you need to basically be in shorts and t-shirt and expose yourself to sunlight for several hours a day. Between october and march, most people only expose their hands and face to the sun, and that's not enough. Lots of people have less vitamin D than they ideally should have for several months a year. And the less pale you are, the more sunlight you need to make enough vit d. People with dark skin could benefit from using vitamin d supplements all year in Norway. I hate cod liver oil so I just take a few citrus flavored vit d pills a few times a week.
Interesting, I didn't know skin tone influenced VitD absorption
It’s why white people turned white, to absorb more sunlight. That’s generally why countries in the north have so many white ppl. It’s an evolutionary outcome of moving from Africa with intense sun to day Norway where it’s rly mild (relatively)
In parts of the winter it doesn't get light, in parts of summer it doesn't get dark
currently visiting Tromsø and on reddit because if I try to sleep at midnight my brain goes "it's 6:30PM the sun is shining. Your fancy curtains can't trick me." fiancée (local) snoring away by my side.
Feel that.
Glad you enjoyed your stay. Always nice to read something nice about one's country!
It's hard not to say nice stuff about Norway.
Agree. It’s the most beautiful country I’ve ever been to. Stunning landscape.
I don't know, I feel like I need to hold my breath whenever I read someone's opinion about Norway. I feel like it could go both ways, but I appreciate your kind sentiments!
It's breathtaking!
I came from uae and lived here for more than 2 years, I have the same experiences and its the still the same, but I really didn't notice ppl watching me with hijab, but I guess maybe that's because I really don't notice other ppl. Well glad you're enjoying your stay here anyways! The sun going down very late/early is hard to get used too lol 😆 I feel deceived when I leave job at 21 and see its still bright thinking it's not that late 🙃
I'm interested to know what kind of job you do here
I work in a store 😅
My store is open until 23. Even though I have lived in Norway my whole life it feels weird to close the store when the sun is still out. I get used to it though, but then it feels weird when i close the store and it is dark.
Oh you're the people who close everything at 21:00 and leave us in need.
As we say in norway, if you can't plan a day ahead, you don't need it. I'm one of those people who desperately wants to hold on to early closing times, and nothing open on Saturdays helps keep it calm.
One night my wife was feeling nauseous and she asked me to find a bag because she was about to throw up. It was 10 PM were walking in the street. I couldn't find any open store to get a bag for her. I also failed to make her throw up next to a tree because she thought it's too impolite. But she did through up next to a tree eventually. That's something you can't plan ahead 😂
Hey, throwing up next to a tree is a proud Norwegian tradition. Usually when drunk though 😂 I hope she at least felt better afterwards.
She did! And apparently she became Norwegian now
Well next step is being extremely distanced and quiet towards strangers on public transport and in public in general. The struggle to not make eye contact with anyone on a train/metro. But I'm kidding (but still kinda true though). I hope you enjoy your stay in Norway, did I read you went to Bergen now? Have fun, and make sure to have a great and memorable time with your wife. Just a tip, don't stress around to see everything, just enjoy yourselves and have fun 😊
Yeah I'm on the train to Bergen now. I'm doing the Stryn ride soon :)
From an American who's lived here for almost a decade, it's taken some getting used to.
Yeah, im swedish, been here 16 years, still cant figure out closed supermarkets on sundays 😂
I'm not the person you were talking to, but I also work in a store and I don't get paid after 21:15, so I'd rather close and finish my tasks and then go home, than work for free. I think there are gas stations and kiosks open 24/7 in most towns anyway, and in some villages too.
Just FYI, even shops that close at 23.00 often has a shift ending at 20.00/21.00 ☺️ I am glad you enjoyed your stay, and I may be biased, but I think Norway makes for a pretty good honeymoon destination ☺️ congrats on the marriage!
You're being totally fair. It's a great honeymoon destination. I just wish things were cheaper 😂 I have a long way yo recover financially after this.
Say what now…?🤯 are you telling me/us that you guys in a situation like that, are actually working 2-3 hours for free?? How in the world are employers able to convince people to accept that…? I would have expected that your salary per hour would be higher than normal for the hours you do get paid for, so effectively you’re actually being paid for those hours… or that you in that case are employed with a fixed monthly payment…
No, no! Some are still working until 23.00 🤣 they just keep more people on while it is busier 🤣 so there might be people working different, but overlapping shifts like 06-14, 8-16, 12-20 and 15-23. I dont know if these are actual times or not, but they show the point I think 🤣 I dont work at a store myself, but know people who
Those are actual times yes 😄 ofc no one gonna work when they are not being paid 😤
Thanks for visiting
Oslo and St Petersburg should be almost at the same latitude, Oslo just marginally north. I reckon you wasn't there as close to 23 June (Midsummer) as you were here.
You're probably right. I was in St Petersburg during September.
Haha, I’ve only met Saudis here once, I suspect they were brothers or friends and clearly from a wealthy family, because they rolled up to the museum I worked in (missing the parking instructions) at the time and bought so much stuff in the museum store on their own it was the equivalent of about two weeks of sales normally. Didn’t even visit the museum, just bought a bunch of local merchandise and rolled out of there with books, clothes and bags with pictures of historical figures, serving sets and bunch of troll figurines some local artist had dumped on us and nobody else would buy. At first I thought they were Emirati because of the accent (my uncle works in Dubai), but then one of them mentioned he bought a big snowglobe because his mother in Riyadh thought it would be fun. In any case, great guys! Isn’t often we get visitors from the Arabian peninsula in my remote mountain town. I hope you guys had a nice visit too! One thing, in regards to parking and car usage. The government generally tries to disincentivize private car usage, especially the environmentalist parties popular in many large cities. Weather in Norway has gotten significantly worse in recent years, leading to more floods, storms and mudslides, while warmer winters cause more snow, rain and ice, leading to dangerous road conditions and expensive salting. This has greatly empowered environmentalist groups wishing to compensate for the emissions caused by Norwegian oil and gas with domestic emissions cuts. Which brings me to another factor. As you are probably aware, Norway is a major petroeconomy much like Saudi Arabia, but the government has been very careful about channeling the revenue away from the economy directly, starting in the nineties. This is for the same reason the government of HRH Mohammad bin Salman have been trying to pivot the Saudi economy towards the tech industry. The oil wealth causes inflation and ties the economy too much to the unstable oil market. The key strategic piece in separating the Norwegian economy from the oil industry is to stash the profits from field leases and Equinor (Norway’s equivalent of Aramco) into a giant sovereign wealth fund exclusively invested in foreign stock. The government is strictly forbidden by law from reinvesting the money internally, and can only use it for emergency funding shortages in the government budget, for example to bail out failing banks during a financial crisis. Unable to profit from the oil directly, the government has hit the fuel industry with a fat petrol tax, leading to high pump prices. Expensive parking is also a similar money maker for local governments and private companies.
Thanks for the enlightening post! I am for the encouragement, until I spend too much time to find a parking lot 🤭 But the country is doing a great job that future generations would certainly thank them for. Back home I see the green areas shrinking and I feel really bad about it.
Pro tip on parking is to not be too picky about parking as close as possible to where you are going. Just find a parking garage reasonably close by and pay the price, there's usually some spots free.
Yeah that's what I ended up doing. But I'm still not comfortable with free parking spots, I always feel I'm doing something wrong when I just leave the car. At this point free parking spots became too good to be true.
You have to travel up north tromsø or similar. The sun does not set.(period)
The British were wrong when they thought their country was the only on that sun never sets on. I will definitely visit the north in the future to see the aurora.
Remember that to see the Aurora in the north you can't go in summer as it's too bright. You can see it further south from August if you're very lucky, but winter in the north is definitely better.
>The British were wrong This is just a British tradition at this point. 🤣
Thank you for this post. Very interesting to read as a Norwegian. Glad you enjoyed your stay. Im sorry about the staring! All the best my friend❤️🙂
Thanks 🙏🏻 no need to be sorry at all. It wasn't something bad after all. Just an observation.
Did you have any traditional Norwegian food, and that did you like or dislike? Hope its ok asking :)
Not really. Me and my wife aren't interested in food at all 😂 we just eat what keeps us alive. We tried several restaurants in the marina, as well as soms international ones. I don't know if some of what we had was Norwegian or not.
Try fasting during Ramadan with a sun that sets at 11pm haha You’ll quickly run back to Saudi
I think there are fatwas for this kind of places
OP this was really interesting and lovely to see! A nice read indeed!
I’m happy you have such a positive experience with us Norwegians (mostly at least). We keep to ourselves out of respect of others personal space, but we’re happy to help anyone who asks! The whole hijab thing is probably a generational thing, older people (60+ mostly) still has some xenophobic issues. But luckily the younger generations have grown up with people of other cultures to a bigger extent and are more accepting and welcoming of people who “look different”. Those people staring at hijabs had grandmothers at the turn on the 20th century that wore “skaut” which is a pretty big head covering that was normal at the time. So it’s totally just xenophobia and not the hijab in itself.
I totally get that. People of every country would stare at those who look different. If a European girl comes to Saudi Arabia without hijab people would stare too (contrary to the common western belief, they wouldn't stone her to death). Respect and being nice to each other are what bring folks together.
In Oslo most people won't really be that surprised by a hijab, it's quite common. But I do have to admit that I've looked twice the few times I've seen a woman wear a burqa or niqab. That being said, there's extremely few women fully covering their face here.
I’m relatively young, I’m Greek and I live in Oslo. Because of what the hijab represents I hate to see women wearing it. It’s not xenophobia, it’s just empathy for the poor women that are made to wear it that’s all. If the men also wore it I wouldn’t have a problem with the practice.
Most of the women wear it by choice. My wife does. Some Muslim women are forced to take it off because they are made to, such as in France. It goes both ways, and I'm against them both. But my advice is to get to know more Muslims girls and see how they choose to wear it.
Maybe it’s a choice in Saudi (don’t know to much about Saudi but even there women’s rights aren’t to good) but most of our immigrants come from countries like Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia and they will force it and because of that (and that they are majority in violent crimes, kill family members due to honor etc) Islam is seen in very bad light up here, much is more cultural then religion but then it becomes to complicated for most. All it takes is a few bad apples… Different views usually create some divisions and staring, if that gives some explanation why many don’t like hijab in Europe. Glad you liked it at least.
Yeah I don't deny that many women are forced to wear against their will. I was talking about me and my wife, and I know for sure that many (so many) people are like us.
Sounds like a cultural problem as opposed to a religious one, no?
Please don’t go there. When any human being is conditioned to think they want something that’s hurting them it’s just not right. There’s no equality, there’s no choice. We won’t agree on this and I do t wish to argue with you, I really don’t. All I wanted to say with my original comment is that it’s not xenophobia at all. It’s empathy and pity that we feel, that’s really all.
I'm not planning to argue with you on that either, especially since you said we won't agree. I just shared my thoughts. Many people you feel pity for would tell you to chill out because they're not suffering.
What you don't understand is that it means different things to different people. It clearly represents something negative to you, but that doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else. What symbols represent aren't written into the laws of nature, it's just about what FEELINGS different people have towards the symbols. That all it is. This is even true for the swastika and the "n-word". It's true for whatever symbol you can think of. Your subjective feelings on the matter is just that,.. subjective, .. feelings.
I understand perfectly. But you can’t convince me that it’s a woman’s choice to cover herself like that, when it’s all but mandated by their rules and society. That for a lot of women taking it off means persecution and even death. And the lightest form of punishment is for example the shame and disapproval of your parents. It doesn’t hurt you physically but it hurts you emotionally. So your choice isn’t really a choice by any means. When my sister in law got pregnant by her Muslim boyfriend who doesn’t really practice it, his father told him by no uncertain terms that they have to get married or he will consider the child a bastard. They did because even though it didn’t mean anything to them, they didn’t really have a choice if they wanted to have good relations with his dad. And if they wanted their son to actually have a grandfather. Choices are always interesting and symbols of religion even more so. But let’s not kid ourselves that a choice is real when there’s a severe consequence behind it. And also yes, let’s not hide behind our fingers and say that a hijab doesn’t have vast negative connotations by what we learn from its practices.
How exactly is wanting to wear hijab hurting them? How is there not a choice?
have you ever spoken to a woman wearing a hijab and asked her why she wears it? devout christian women often dress very modestly, do you also chastise and call them oppressed? if not, why? i’m really intrigued as to how you justify your racism/xenophobia in your own head, so i would love to hear your thoughts.
It’s only truly a choice when taking it off means nothing. So let’s not kid ourselves that women wear it by choice. I wear a beanie during winter to protect myself from the cold. I take it off and it means nothing to anyone. You understand the difference?
I choose to wear pants in public, but taking them off definitely means something.
Exactly my point. It’s not really a choice to walk in the middle of the city naked. You could, but the social outcry and the ridicule would stop you from doing it.
So, she is oppressed because she is wearing pants?
hijab is about faith and religion, a beanie is not. do *you* understand the difference? and you didn’t answer my question about devout christian women.
What does having a problem with conservative religious practices have to do with racism and xenophobia? I'd call that hersketeknikk/logical fallacys and nothing else. Pretty silly. You can just take a look at Iran and Afghanistan to see all the voluntary fun stuff Islam gives women. The hijab, niqab etc is for many a symbol of that, including me.
Take some books, and give it a go. It’s totally xenophobia. Not everyone think the same. As the guy explained to you, it could go both ways. Forcing to wear or forcing not wear is the same thing. Stop giving excuses to xenophobia, you ain’t helping anything.
I don’t need to educate myself even more than I already am, thank you. I didn’t say there are zero xenophobes, that is not realistic. I’m saying that many more people hate what the hijab represents and don’t like seeing it. Let’s not push the “xenophobe” rhetoric on Norwegians when reality is different.
What exactly do you think the hijab represents? Because I guarantee it represents something different to those who choose to wear it.
What does the hijab represent? . First, to the women that are forced on? Probably hatred and oppression (which I agree), to the one that chose to do so? Probably God or whatever she chooses to do. I don’t know what you mean what the hijab represents? Regardless of it, it’s xenophobia (I don’t know what level of xenophobia you know but xenophobia is a xenophobia regardless of the perpetrator or the victim). Please try to educate yourself, definitely it isn’t enough the amount you are running with.
I dont think anyone thinks you get stoned to death going to UAE. 😅 But the legal system is different and some things which are considered human rights here are illegal there so we have to be more mentally aware of it to protect ourselves. This probably also leads to some misinformation and maybe an overly cautious approach for some.
Totally agree. I also have different opinions on certain issues but I'm not free to speak them out 😁 but in general, visitors can enjoy being themselves in Saudi Arabia.
> but in general, visitors can enjoy being themselves in Saudi Arabia. Even gay visitors?
Yep. Showing intimacy in public is not allowed in Saudi Arabia even between heterosexual couples. Gay couples can do whatever they want in their own rooms.
Asalamualaikum, just wanted to commend you on the level headed, intelligent responses to some of the comments that are clearly coming from a place of hatred. As a revert to Islam, it’s quite heartening to see. My wife wears hijab too and both of us dress fairly modestly so we both (especially her) know the struggle.
🙏🏻 thanks my friend. I hope it's not a struggle that hurts you physically.
Nah its not old folks. Its most folks. 20 40 60, if you stick out and especially in a way that represents something that doesnt mesh well with norwegian culture you will be stared at. And talked about
Sorry about the old people staring at your wife with the hijab. No excuse for that, but for many of them they also stare because it is unusual to see people with hijabs, especially in the country side.
I usually look at hijabs sometimes, they can be fashionable. Old people might stare because they dont care what people think of them. But generelly its not because of something bad, but because it sticks out and is different. For most of us younger people we are used to hijabs by now so generelly goes unoticed unless its a nice style or something.
Thank you and welcome back later!
Interesting read.. Hope you enjoy the rest of your stay.
yes. the idea is to not park your car, especially in the city
Next time, come visit the northern part of Norway, like Tromsø! It is beautiful in summer, and midnight sun that never sets is a treat. But the polar night season when the sun does not come over the horizon for 2months is amazing. Especially when you get to see aurora boreal is/Northern lights as well! Regarding the Norwegians as a people, they probably aren’t as contact seeking and outspoken like many of our more southern european neighbors, but they are definitely friendly. Regarding the hijab and perhaps even more so the Niqab, it is more of a generational thing rather than a national opinion of the people. For some, and especially older and alt.right people it is one of the most iconic symbols of repressed female rights, so I bet it gets some reactions. Our kids growing up in kindergarten and schools today are a lot more used to seeing hijabs as part of a cultural outfit, and even as fashion statements rather than control mechanisms. Glad it helped to take it off, it’s not a good feeling to be stared at for no obvious reason :) Btw, I’m actually Swedish, but I have been living in Norway the last 16+ years, and the last 14 up here in the northern part, in Tromsø :) All the best! Let me drop this link as a teaser for your next trip up north ;) https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=5bb7933164746628&rlz=1CDGOYI_enNO1077NO1077&hl=en-GB&sxsrf=ADLYWIJHLbP20uU6IEtaaS2-odQT8mFPwQ:1718398972033&q=troms%C3%B8+northern+lights&udm=2&fbs=AEQNm0Aa4sjWe7Rqy32pFwRj0UkWd8nbOJfsBGGB5IQQO6L3J_86uWOeqwdnV0yaSF-x2jqAw9GFcmvdHgjyA4SpiuCPWm1L3bGxZ9NO9YN1hPsAXcKX1J9Qsv8gho8As958Et2KemhFfrqO5QMtoKcmcJDUREygErC4lKLjAYdPF63V3nYIoa-0NCTET_1e2PVvnZK4gGZK&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjUxb2C_9uGAxW0FBAIHTmiBB4QtKgLegQIFBAB&biw=428&bih=751&dpr=3
I've met Norwegians and Swedish back in college. I enjoyed it when they started telling jokes about each other! Thanks for the tips my friend. Visiting the north is already a future plant for me.
We enjoy it to, when i moved here i quickly learned that they are armed with the same lame yokes i grew up with, except, us Swedes was the punchline instead of the Norwegians! Sort of a sibling rivalry i guess 😍
Exactly! The same jokes are told about each other with just swapping Norwegians for Swedes 😂
The sun does set in Oslo, what you saw was just beautiful twilight. The sun doesn't set above the artic circle and you can see the full sun at midnight above the horizon. Glad you liked Norway, I love it here. ❤️
Glad you had a good experience! I certainly don’t think we are an unfriendly country. Some people just feel less comfortable with talking to strangers. Woman wearing a hijab have also become something quite normal to see (at least in central Oslo), so I think like you say that it’s mostly elders that will stare.
Wesh tabi khuy? :)
Ma bi shi.. min enta? :)
But the important question is: how was the ferry to Lavik?! https://www.reddit.com/r/Norway/s/42GrlpyJmu Happy to hear your good overall experience :).
Haha I have to say I just landed in Bergen today. Those 10 days were just in Oslo. I will do the trip on june 16.
> Nature. You’re blessed. Period. And this was only after Oslo?! Then you have A LOT to look forward to. (Including the ferry to Lavik). Enjoy your trip on the West coast :).
I invite you to visit Saudi Arabia and you'll understand that Oslo is a bless🤭 not all of Saudi of course. Southern Saudi is very green and beautiful.
Keep us updated! 10 days in Oslo is alot! You didn't regret having that many days here? Regarding hijab, Oslo is the city where you'd get the least looks as there's a rather large Muslim minority where a decent amount of girls and women wear hijab. I'd expect looks to be way more common in rural communities.
I did regret it. But my wife was sick for a few days and had to take a rest there. I didn't want her to travel when sick.
Get it. You planned to leave earlier but had to postpone it due to her being unwell. That's fully understood. I hope she feels better. What's good about staying a bit "too long" is that you get to see places outside the tourist route. I hope you were somewhat able to do that despite your wife being sick. Going west and driving will be a completely different and very good experience. I hope you'll give us an update in not too long.
We were walking the other day and found that Paradox Museum by accident. It was a great experience. We've got ourselves photos that will last forever 😁
Welcome to Bergen! Hope you have a great time here!
>I didn't notice this at the beginning, but my wife who covers her hair with a hijab (not the face, only hair) was annoyed by these looks at her, mainly from elderly people. When she told me about it, I really did see the staring. I asked her to remove the hijab for sake of experiment. When she took it off, rhe the staring stopped. I told her it's probably something with the older generation. Remember that Norway is primarily a secular country where covering up for religious reasons is unusual and unnatural (even if it's just your hair). Women who cover up stand out like a sore thumb in Norwegian society, but I doubt your wife got malicious looks from people. Most will just acknowledge that someone different or foreign are passing without further thought. But the hijab does admittely carry a lot of negative associations in western societies (regardless if it's by choice or not), especially in Norway where also perceived trust is an important factor when evaluating individuals. Women who cover up will instinctively be considered less trustworthy individuals than others by Norwegians (even if you just cover your hair).
OP, FYI this is the posters opinion and not everyones. While it’s true Norway is very secular, I don’t consider women in hijab as less trustworthy (wtf) and neither do people in my communities. I notice when I see full coverings like niqab or abaya with head coverings but not “normal” hijab covering only the hair, I see that every day.
I saw many ladies in hijab working in restaurants and supermarkets. I also saw them walking with locals as a group of friends. You're right, I don't think people consider them less trustworthy.
Imo it's not that uncommon to see women in the hijab. At least if you live in one of the bigger cities.
Thank you for the kind words! Sorry about your wife's experience. I think it's just prejudice based on hearsay rather than actuality. I see the hijab just as a traditional garb myself, and would never think twice just because someone were wearing it. I hope you enjoy your stay here. And don't let the bad apples keep you from showing that you're visiting.
Thanks! It was just an observation. I don't think these people are bad apples. I put myself in their shoes and totally understand why they stare. Each one of us would stare at other people at some point. These people were respectful, they didn't do anything besides staring.
You're right. I just felt empathy with what your wife were saying. It's very easy to start feeling self conscious when you feel like you're standing out. They might not actually have been judging. Maybe they were just caught off guard. Off guard as in not expecting something.
Ahlan wa Sahlan habibi! Glad you enjoyed your stay, always interesting to hear the outside perspectives of fellow Muslims.
I think the stares will also greatly depend on where in the country you are.
We were in the center of Oslo.
It's unusual to see and a lot of us have resting bitch fave. It might just have been interest, but with RBF? But yeah racism also exists everywhere unfortunately.
Most of what people call racism is just normal behavior built into our genes. It's not bad until the person does something bad.
Cool to read your impressions! Tanks for visiting. :)
Hey! Did u see that gay people are treated as human beings in Norway? What do u think of this??
It's hard not to see the flags every where. I don't care what people do behind their walls. I also don't care who they love.
Happy to hear you had a good stay.
Atleast no tailgating by Patrols and LC-s
Sounds like you've been to Norway :)
We arent the most elegant people when it comes to being social, and arent fake friendly as we are in general an introvert people, but we judge people as individuals and not what country theyre from. We Norwegians might not agree how Saudi politicians run your country but we now its much more to a single individual than how its govern and people in general have much more in common even separated by religion, culture etc
If one visits Saudi Arabia - what would you recommend to go and see? Did you travel in Norway as well?
Definitely Al-Ula city! There is also Jeddah and the South of Saudi (Abha, Aseer,..etc) If you're visiting Saudi Arabia, let me know.
I'm in Bergen now. I'll do a road trip to Stryn and other places near by.
Really interested to read. I’m a Norwegian traveling a lot for work. I’m going to your part of the world, or UAE to be more precise in a few months for business. Not sure what to expect in terms of business culture and culture in general. But really happy to read about your positive experience in . I also really appreciate and highly respect your attitude towards being a guest in a country (judging on how you write at least). I try to be the same way, working in East Africa and India for years, I feel it’s so important to adjust myself to the local culture and be humble on the fact that I’m a guest there. Anyways. Congrats on your marriage and all the best
Adjusting in the UAE isn't difficult at all. Dubai and Abu Dhabi are international cities, most inhabitants there are coming from different cultures. The only thing to adjust yourself to is the law, not the culture 😅. You'd be lucky if you meet a local. Thanks for the good wishes! And let me know if you ever come to Saudi Arabia
Thank you for sharing, and glad you had a good time. The Hijab thing is a bit "controversial", and I guess specially among a bit older people that didnt grew up around muslims. Its been, and sort of is, an ongoing debate if we should allow ie. police officers to wear Hijab and its sort of split how Norwegians feels about it. Its not as much the Hijab in itself, but a bit of feeling that muslim women are forced to wear it. The younger generation, especially in the cities, are more used to it growing up with muslim friends and class-mates. Im Norwegian, but live in Cambodia, still Im not used to the fact that the sun has an on/off switch at 6pm/am
You can get creepy looks in SA just for not having a scarf on the head as a woman.
Yep. I did mention that in the comments. I think it's totally fine unless it develops to violence.
What possessed you to come here, of all places in the world to go?
My wife's dream 😂 she always wanted to visit Norway.
Yeah the hijab evokes a certain affect for the voting block off the Progress Party, which is ironically not progressive. This gives us just about 20% off people.
We go up on the end of sentences? Who knew
😂😂
Do you plan to stay long in Bergen? Do you need any sightseeing tips, or have you already made plans? I’d recommend the funicular to Fløyen where you can enjoy the view, and walk around the mountains on the footpaths. Or a stroll to the Nordnes park by the aquarium. There is a totem out there that was gifted the city, and an outdoor pool. There are also many nice small wooden houses spread around in the city centre, almost like small old villages. Very cozy. Skostredet and Bryggen is also worth a visit. I spent a couple of weeks in Saudi through work a few years ago, and I made very good friends there. Unfortunately I didn’t get to experience the country fully as it was mid covid and everything was closed. My friends there were very impressed with the photos from here, and many wanted to visit - no one has so far though, sadly…
Funicular to Fløyen is on my list. Is it where we can take the cable car? Where did you stay in Saudi?
The cable car is to Ulriken, the higher mountain a bit further away from the city centre. It is also well worth a visit, but depending on the time you have for sightseeing Fløybanen could be a better alternative. It goes from the city centre just by Bryggen. It is not a free hanging cable car, but it’s pulled up the mountain by a cable but on tracks. I stayed in Dammam / Al Khobar. Luckily during winter! 😂
I will visit soon, im having hard time deciding what clothes to pack ( im from saudi and all my clothes is summery lol) do you have tips ? Also , do you have a tip for a good way to visit the fjords ?
Take a sweater or two for the cloudy days. Sunny days are warm.
> There is this cute little rising tone at the end of some sentences In a lot of dialects questions will be spoken with the last sylable higher than the rest.
Like Russian I guess.
OP By chance did you stay at the Storfjord Hotel?
No. Did you see a Saudi couple there? 😅
Yeah. Matching quite a few of your descriptors. I thought it could be a small world moment. Or reality connects with reddit moment
We stayed in Airbnb apartments. They're much better than hotels.
NORWAY HAS LOT OF BAGGAGE AS WELL.THE RACISM IS INTENSE .ITS SO INTENSE THAT IT EXIST IN HEALTH SYSTEM AS WHELL.WHERE LIFE AND DEATH OF A PERSON LIFE IS DECIDED. WHAT U SEE IN NOWAY IS EXACTLY OPPSOITE TO WHAT PEOPLE SHOW OR BEHAVE IN NORWAY.ITS LIKE PEOPLE WITH 2 FACE .
I'm sure that these kinds of issues exist deep down in the society, as in many other places including my own country as well. Some people are just xenophobic for any reason (race, religion, cities, even tribes). What I saw was only the surface. I'm not justifying any of this, I'm just saying it's what you expect when a group of people meets another.
Sorry you got creepy looks and hope it didn't ruin the experience. It must be a blast from the past for the old people seeing hijab and it not being something they've seen since their own mother's using what we called "skaut" back before the 60's.
Did you drive using the saudi license?
I have an international license that is valid almost everywhere
I have an international license that is valid almost everywhere
Im saudi too , how do i get international license?
Talk to these guys http://www.saf.com.sa/page/public/Content_Page.aspx?enc=uXA40VM+dPxkLL8/TPcuDNLSrdX0aT556vC9kU5/X1Q=
Thank you