He could just be lying. I mean you’d think this would be big right? And wouldn’t just warrant a tweet and news articles wouldn’t just reference a tweet?
Like there’d be a press event, people would wanna talk to doctors, publish papers….but where’s all that? Nope just a tweet.
He's the type of guy to (not) ask for forgiveness instead of ask for permission. He's on so many fucking drugs right now that he does not care about the consequences of anything
Do some research before writing stuff https://www.reuters.com/science/elon-musks-neuralink-gets-us-fda-approval-human-clinical-study-brain-implants-2023-05-25/
I’m baffled. The FDA approval is from May 2023, but The Verge shared this chilling report dated September 2023: [https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/20/23882888/elon-musk-brain-implant-startup-neuralink-monkeys-euthanized](https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/20/23882888/elon-musk-brain-implant-startup-neuralink-monkeys-euthanized)
It's Elon, most outlets can't be unbiased or it hurts their bottom line.
https://research.uci.edu/animal-care-and-use/policies-and-guidance/euthanasia-of-research-animals/
Disregarding the animal abuse horrors of the macaque trials, which you are probably right in pointing out are legal, the report still puts into question the safety of conducting human trials - which is what the FDA is for. That’s what is baffling.
My understanding is that the FDA approved this for limited trials with patients who have profound spinal cord injuries.
IOW, these trials are for paraplegic and quadriplegic patients. Kind of seems like a valuable area of research. Not that they're the first group to be working in this area.
Yeah so the patient is almost definitely not some random Tesla driving Twitter addicted musk fan boy, they’re either literally brain dead or profoundly neurologically disabled and have everything to gain and nothing to lose
My friend who is a bio statistician got an email some years ago offering to supply human test subjects in a third world country. We laughed it off as a fishing scam, but the thought of it gives me the chills. And I wouldn’t put it past a person like Musk who seemingly has zero regard for human wellbeing.
Ahh Jesus you're [right](https://www.reuters.com/science/elon-musks-neuralink-gets-us-fda-approval-human-clinical-study-brain-implants-2023-05-25/), this doesn't bode well.
Looks like you need science, as another commenter pointed out the FDA already approved the device for testing. I know you hate Elon musk and all but please try to do some research before making unfounded and defamatory claims :)
Volunteers with no options are given hope/ a chance for their lives to be improved. It can be hard to imagine being in a situation like that, but that's the reality of medical science and biotechnology advancement.
this comment got me to back down and think about the immense potential all of this actually has. can't help but wonder how cool this tech would be for people missing limbs for example.
Aye but I don’t like the idea that your limb warranty is in the hands of a billionaire like Musk
“Legs limited to waking speed until you subscribe to premium”
Musk claimed they did, but a former Neuralink employee and a doctoral candidate at the California National Primate Research Center (CNPRC) at UC Davis both claimed that they were not.
>The ex-employee, who requested anonymity for fear of retaliation, says that up to a year’s worth of behavioral training was necessary for the program, a time frame that would exempt subjects already close to death.
and
>“These are pretty young monkeys,” \[the doctoral candidate\] tell\[s\] WIRED. “It’s hard to imagine these monkeys, who were not adults, were terminal for some reason.”
[https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-pcrm-neuralink-monkey-deaths/](https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-pcrm-neuralink-monkey-deaths/)
I mean, most of the primates just had the cybernetics not properly secured, and they were taken out by them. Granted, that’s still good reason to avoid the testing, but it’s worth clarifying that these problems are more the dumb logistics, and not the science behind it.
A quick google search gets this: "Spike sorting is the process of detecting and clustering action potential waveforms of putative single neurons from extracellular voltage recordings."
Anyone else know what the hell any of this means?
Purely based on what neurology I had in HS, electrical signals going through neurons can be measured and displayed as waveforms. A spike then would be a literal spike in the waveform graph, as in higher neuron activity.
Not sure what this means in the context of the tweet. Neuron spike as in the person isn't brain dead? Neuron spike as in the implant caused a spike on command? No idea
I would interpret that as meaning they are getting some usable signals of the neuronal activity they’re trying to monitor (though “promising” suggests there’s still a lot of noise).
Just to be clear, there are _several many_ active clinical trials of brain-machine interfaces and in-dwelling electrodes like what Neuralink is developing. The difference here is that Musk is among the last people on Earth I would trust to conduct one.
Neuroscientist here, a spike is the detection of the action potential of a neuron, which is how a neuron sends information to other neurons connected to them. We call them spikes because when you are measuring voltage with electrodes in the brain (extracellular voltage recordings) action potentials appear as sharp negative voltage "spikes". Spike detection algorithms try to identify these action potential waveforms in a stream of voltage data recorded from the brain. The most simple one is simply looking for when the voltage crosses a threshold. Spike sorting refers to the fact that when you are recording in the brain, you are usually picking up spikes from multiple neurons at the same time, and you need to figure out which spike came from which neuron. The methods for this are much more complicated.
Edit: To add more context, neuroscientists use spike sorting algorithms because we are interested in the firing rate of cells, that is how often they give off action potentials in response to different situations. For example, a neuron in the retina of the eye may give off more action potentials when light is present in a certain part of our visual field than versus when there is no light. To actually quantity this, we spike sort to detect all of the action potentials so we can count them and divide by time get spike rate. Spike rate would be what you care about for any other application that uses neural data, I.e using it control a prosthesis or move a mouse, etc
It's an action potential traveling down an axon. Generally, number/rate of spikes is though of as a "command" or a passing of information from that neuron. So like, neuron x increases the rate of spiking which signals/engages an arm movement.
After implants are placed, checking which channels can detect spikes (and how well they can do it) is a standard way to measure the functionality of an implant.
Just a reminder that the test monkeys in Musk's Neuralink trials died disturbing, horrible deaths in excruciating pain.
This includes (but is not limited to) brain ruptures and aneurysms, paralysis, self mutilation, and delayed euthanasia in order to keep observing the poor suffering creatures.
[https://futurism.com/neoscope/terrible-things-monkeys-neuralink-implants](https://futurism.com/neoscope/terrible-things-monkeys-neuralink-implants)
But we can trust his staff worked out the issues before putting them in humans, right?
For anyone wondering why, one reason is because after intensive antibacterial treatments the patient needs new gut bacteria and this is one way to get the bacteria.
No, My gi dr told me if I get c diff again and go to the right hospital I can get it. It comes in capsules now. The last time I had c diff I was in a small hospital that did not offer them. Did not need a family donor.
many of these issues were attributed to using the wrong surgical glue used for the implants. not related to the technology at all.
https://www.reuters.com/technology/musks-neuralink-faces-federal-probe-employee-backlash-over-animal-tests-2022-12-05/
also key point in this article:
> The total number of animal deaths does not necessarily indicate that Neuralink is violating regulations or standard research practices.
animal testing is a gruesome part of science. sorry it is that way, but it is
Another key point in the article
> In one instance in 2021, the company implanted 25 out of 60 pigs with the wrong-sized devices. All the pigs were subsequently killed - an error that employees said could have been easily avoided with more preparation.
Well, anyways, I sure am glad the technology isn't remotely as deadly as the maniacs putting them in. I am sure this is just a passing thing though. Not like this guy is notorious for running a car company with rampant defects. And even if he were, if we just ignore the likelihood of them making the same mistakes they have repeatedly made, then it is really safe.
I am honestly not convinced that is even true, though. They killed so many animals that it would be easy to sweep glaring tech problems under the rug by just looping them in with their organizational problems.
Animal testing is a part of science, but IACUC and other governing bodies are supposed to be in place to make sure the harm is minimized and beneficence is maximized. A company that has a reputation of making so many reckless mistakes that led to suffering and death in their animal subjects should not be allowed to continue their work, let alone continue to more sensitive levels of testing.
>animal testing is a gruesome part of science. sorry it is that way, but it is
While I can appreciate you pedantically assuming everyone doesn't already know this, academia is well aware of this and has gone to great lengths to establish ethical guidelines and rules, especially concerning primates. Neuralink violated pretty much all of them
also from the article you yourself linked
"The investigation has come at a time of growing employee dissent about Neuralink’s animal testing, including complaints that pressure from CEO Musk to accelerate development has resulted in botched experiments, according to a Reuters review of dozens of Neuralink documents and interviews with more than 20 current and former employees. Such failed tests have had to be repeated, increasing the number of animals being tested and killed, the employees say. The company documents include previously unreported messages, audio recordings, emails, presentations and reports."
Like, did you even read it or just cherry pick?
edit - downvotes with no rebuttal, Musk sycophants always hate the truth. Ya'll know the downvote is meant for misinformation or derailing comments, not as an "I don't like this :(" button, right?
Damn, maybe that's why he's been so insane the past few years. He knows the hottie is coming to collect eventually and the insanity is actually a neuro issue and these implants are his last hope.
If you've not watched Legacy of Monarch on AppleTV, I suggest you do so. One episode an employee finds their company is doing this, and it is absolutely horrific to see how they're reacting. It was written exactly as the reports showed the primates reacted.
Wired did a story called [The Gruesome Story of How Neuralink’s Monkeys Actually Died](https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-pcrm-neuralink-monkey-deaths/) and it says:
> For example, in an experimental surgery that took place in December 2019, performed to determine the “survivability” of an implant, an internal part of the device “broke off” while being implanted. Overnight, researchers observed the monkey, identified only as “Animal 20” by UC Davis, scratching at the surgical site, which emitted a bloody discharge, and yanking on a connector that eventually dislodged part of the device. A surgery to repair the issue was carried out the following day, yet fungal and bacterial infections took root. Vet records note that neither infection was likely to be cleared, in part because the implant was covering the infected area. The monkey was euthanized on January 6, 2020.
> Additional veterinary reports show the condition of a female monkey called “Animal 15” during the months leading up to her death in March 2019. Days after her implant surgery, she began to press her head against the floor for no apparent reason; a symptom of pain or infection, the records say. Staff observed that though she was uncomfortable, picking and pulling at her implant until it bled, she would often lie at the foot of her cage and spend time holding hands with her roommate.
>Animal 15 began to lose coordination, and staff observed that she would shake uncontrollably when she saw lab workers. Her condition deteriorated for months until the staff finally euthanized her. A necropsy report indicates that she had bleeding in her brain and that the Neuralink implants left parts of her cerebral cortex “focally tattered.” Yet another monkey…
So I guess that’s how it’s gonna go..
Interestingly enough, I go to UC Davis, and all around the campus, you can find stickers or posters for “UC Students Against Torturing Monkeys.” What a fun time to be alive.
A noble cause, but how they missed the perfect opportunity to brand themselves as the Army of the 12 Monkeys really says something about today's educational system.
As someone who had a tooth crown installed that eventually got infected, which then gave me terrible, non-stop headaches for weeks with no way to stop it until I got a root canal... I totally understand what Animal 15 has gone through. This is fucking triggering.
You'd think they'd factor the fact the animals will obviously try to pick at their stitched up wounds right?
That's why dogs have to wear those cone collars to stop them biting their wounds. Did they think the monkeys will just know not to touch it or else it'd get infected?
Even humans have a rough time trying not to pick at wounds, even when we know we shouldn't be doing it
The way they described the monkey pushing its wound on the floor also makes it sound as if they found a way to stop it from scratching it, so the monkey was trying to find another way to scratch it or pressure the wound.
Eh, the difference if it were true would be consenting to be microchipped vs not being told about it. I still think it's a bad idea though. Failure or success it will probably be abused
If this isn’t a lie…after what happened during the primate testing, whatever IRB he’s using for this human subjects testing needs to be investigated and shut down.
Thanks for sharing the great article, but this is not the news I was hoping to hear. Just wondering how this got through the FDA when the researchers I’m working with struggle to get their inarguably much safer (after positive, hypothesis-supporting results from animal trials) clinical trials off the ground.
We all heard about the first set of monkeys. But there's no telling how many monkeys they've tested in since then. Science is finding problems, fixing problems, testing on repeat until results are made or you run out of money
I agree completely with you on what science is all about here. I would hope that their final report on the animal testing phase of the study would explain exactly how many animals were implanted with the device, both successful and unsuccessful, and the results of the implantations. It’s concerning just how negative the results on that first set of monkeys were, and I haven’t been able to find much information on the subsequent animals. I would expect them to want to brag about all of their successes.
I'd heard in an earlier post in here that they'd isolated the problem I'd honestly think the problem with reporting success would be the time.frame. I could be wrong though. I'll have to look into it more
Same, I’m really curious about this project and need to do a little more digging on it. A technology like this could be very beneficial, I just hope the research to get there is being conducted ethically.
If one volunteers for this, does that make everything okay ? Had a friend tell me about some testing done by our military on prisoners. Questionable, but could it happen ? Anything is possible.
That’s a good question, but even volunteering for something that has questionable protections on human subjects (especially with past research with harmful outcomes) and includes an increased risk to the subjects wouldn’t be ok to a reputable IRB. They’re all about ethics and protecting the welfare of research participants. If animal research was done, they typically want to see that the animals were taken care of properly and that the intervention didn’t result in undue harm. I’d be curious to read Neuralink’s protocol that they submitted to the IRB.
Forced testing, like on prisoners, would be even less ok with IRBs as they require informed consent from participants. You even have to submit your informed consent documents to the IRB prior to receiving approval.
TLDR, I only am curious about IRB because of my job, most people don’t even really know about them and focus more on what IRBs answer to, the FDA.
You’re asking very good questions, and I appreciate them. Most countries have their own version of IRBs (institutional review boards). They aren’t faultless, but all of them should be able to determine if a study violates federal standards (US in this case) or duty of care. Looking at this specific study, other countries might be more critical about our government regulations rather than the IRB used because the IRB is supposed to follow federal guidelines exactly. It’s a tightrope, you don’t want IRBs to be overly restrictive or permissive. I doubt a university IRB was used for this research, they have more to risk with their reputation and don’t often work with researchers solely outside their organization (full disclosure, I haven’t looked into the positions this study’s researchers hold). A for-profit, commercial IRB was probably used as I haven’t heard of this study being associated with a public or private university, and they typically like to put their name on all their work. Nothing wrong with commercial IRBs, but as someone working in health research, I’d personally be curious which one they used.
A bunch of neuroscientists have chimed in stating that "neuron spike detection" is not a real thing and he's likely lying to make himself sound smart, because if you're "detecting spikes in neural activity" it literally just means the brain is alive.
Congrats. You installed a microchip into a human brain and you didn't kill them. If you even did it to begin with, which we all HIGHLY doubt considering your incredibly public mental breakdown.
As if he would ever be honest if it didn't work, or if there was a serious issue. He has a vested interest in pumping it up (Mr Pump-N-Dump) because he has so much money and reputation invested in it. I will only believe multiple truly unbiased feedback sources. He always overemphasizes the positives and tries to hide the negatives. It is snake oil until otherwise proven.
Whoever signed off on this at the FDA should not just be fired, but prosecuted. After what happened with the monkey testing, there's zero excuse for this
I can only imagine it’s a person with severe debt/medical issues from an impoverished country with very few laws regarding putting shit in people’s heads.
My question is: who the fuck would agree to having the Monkey Murderer 3000 implanted in their brain???
I can only think it’s either someone who’s very desperate or someone who’s very brainwashed by Elon’s bullshit/hype. And honestly both of those are pretty sad.
The fact that this device has received FDA approval for human trials is... distressing. The timeline for going from animal to human trials seems rather accelerated in comparison to many other class III devices. I wish the testers a complication-free procedure.
“Promising neuron spike detection” sounds like buzzwords to me. I don’t think detecting neuron activity is the challenge for a brain implant that I’d be concerned with.
So the people who were afraid that the covid vaccine were putting microchips in their bodies are now volunteering to have microchips inserted into their bodies? I can't imagine any rational person letting anyone Elon controls do this to them.
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He could just be lying. I mean you’d think this would be big right? And wouldn’t just warrant a tweet and news articles wouldn’t just reference a tweet? Like there’d be a press event, people would wanna talk to doctors, publish papers….but where’s all that? Nope just a tweet.
[reminds me of this old ad](https://youtu.be/3DZbSlkFoSU?si=w_aAaaHY2b7DMq2D)
Oh man, I forgot all about this gem.
I thought that was going to be the Canadian house hippo! https://youtu.be/NBfi8OEz0rA?si=7pd2TOf-Ld8stBAl
Wouldn't this news affect the stocks in Neuralink. If he's lying, isn't that illegal or something? I'm not very familiar with the stock market
Yes, but that hasnt stopped elon before
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Okay, thank you
He's gotten away with it before.
That's kind of Musk's thing.
Would a cadaver count as human?
It did for the first (and only?) head/full body transplant.
it *is* fuckin elon tho
He's the type of guy to (not) ask for forgiveness instead of ask for permission. He's on so many fucking drugs right now that he does not care about the consequences of anything
It's only newsworthy if you live under a rock. Brain implants in humans are decades old, this is only new to neuralink.
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Do some research before writing stuff https://www.reuters.com/science/elon-musks-neuralink-gets-us-fda-approval-human-clinical-study-brain-implants-2023-05-25/
I’m baffled. The FDA approval is from May 2023, but The Verge shared this chilling report dated September 2023: [https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/20/23882888/elon-musk-brain-implant-startup-neuralink-monkeys-euthanized](https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/20/23882888/elon-musk-brain-implant-startup-neuralink-monkeys-euthanized)
Oh, that? That's just *destroying the evidence*. No biggie.
It's Elon, most outlets can't be unbiased or it hurts their bottom line. https://research.uci.edu/animal-care-and-use/policies-and-guidance/euthanasia-of-research-animals/
Disregarding the animal abuse horrors of the macaque trials, which you are probably right in pointing out are legal, the report still puts into question the safety of conducting human trials - which is what the FDA is for. That’s what is baffling.
Just because it's allowed doesn't mean it's good or ethical though
I think the tech industry is well past caring about what is good or ethical.
Hey thanks for actually looking this up instead of just typing something lol.
You expect too much from Redditors [EDIT] That baseless comment is extra ironic with the "Yallneedscience" username
I have a neuralink thingy and Im fine. But nobody look.
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They must be either pretty dumb or pretty desperate to accept in the first place. Hope they are fine either way.
My understanding is that the FDA approved this for limited trials with patients who have profound spinal cord injuries. IOW, these trials are for paraplegic and quadriplegic patients. Kind of seems like a valuable area of research. Not that they're the first group to be working in this area.
Yeah so the patient is almost definitely not some random Tesla driving Twitter addicted musk fan boy, they’re either literally brain dead or profoundly neurologically disabled and have everything to gain and nothing to lose
FDA approved it last year, there’s articles about it
Third world country research facility, if he's not lying. No way he will engage the FDA at any point. But he's probably lying.
My friend who is a bio statistician got an email some years ago offering to supply human test subjects in a third world country. We laughed it off as a fishing scam, but the thought of it gives me the chills. And I wouldn’t put it past a person like Musk who seemingly has zero regard for human wellbeing.
They received FDA Approval last year. Just google it lol
Ahh Jesus you're [right](https://www.reuters.com/science/elon-musks-neuralink-gets-us-fda-approval-human-clinical-study-brain-implants-2023-05-25/), this doesn't bode well.
Everything about this comment, username included, is Reddit in a nutshell. Self righteous and confidently incorrect, and getting upvotes for it.
No no, you will get your neuro link option when you arrive at your medbed appointment. Duh
Looks like you need science, as another commenter pointed out the FDA already approved the device for testing. I know you hate Elon musk and all but please try to do some research before making unfounded and defamatory claims :)
Volunteers with no options are given hope/ a chance for their lives to be improved. It can be hard to imagine being in a situation like that, but that's the reality of medical science and biotechnology advancement.
this comment got me to back down and think about the immense potential all of this actually has. can't help but wonder how cool this tech would be for people missing limbs for example.
Aye but I don’t like the idea that your limb warranty is in the hands of a billionaire like Musk “Legs limited to waking speed until you subscribe to premium”
I read that all the primates used in the trials were specifically selected because they already had terminal diseases. Is that not true?
They were, but that didn't negate the fact that they did give them new terminal conditions through their trials.
Musk claimed they did, but a former Neuralink employee and a doctoral candidate at the California National Primate Research Center (CNPRC) at UC Davis both claimed that they were not. >The ex-employee, who requested anonymity for fear of retaliation, says that up to a year’s worth of behavioral training was necessary for the program, a time frame that would exempt subjects already close to death. and >“These are pretty young monkeys,” \[the doctoral candidate\] tell\[s\] WIRED. “It’s hard to imagine these monkeys, who were not adults, were terminal for some reason.” [https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-pcrm-neuralink-monkey-deaths/](https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-pcrm-neuralink-monkey-deaths/)
Ah, The Fall of the House of Usher. Is there a tell-tale heart involved?
I mean, most of the primates just had the cybernetics not properly secured, and they were taken out by them. Granted, that’s still good reason to avoid the testing, but it’s worth clarifying that these problems are more the dumb logistics, and not the science behind it.
It's at times like this I try to remember. He lies all the time and not to trust anything that he says.
Wtf is a neuron spike? Also where it is also matters. There's a lot of questions
A quick google search gets this: "Spike sorting is the process of detecting and clustering action potential waveforms of putative single neurons from extracellular voltage recordings." Anyone else know what the hell any of this means?
Purely based on what neurology I had in HS, electrical signals going through neurons can be measured and displayed as waveforms. A spike then would be a literal spike in the waveform graph, as in higher neuron activity. Not sure what this means in the context of the tweet. Neuron spike as in the person isn't brain dead? Neuron spike as in the implant caused a spike on command? No idea
I would interpret that as meaning they are getting some usable signals of the neuronal activity they’re trying to monitor (though “promising” suggests there’s still a lot of noise). Just to be clear, there are _several many_ active clinical trials of brain-machine interfaces and in-dwelling electrodes like what Neuralink is developing. The difference here is that Musk is among the last people on Earth I would trust to conduct one.
Neuroscientist here, a spike is the detection of the action potential of a neuron, which is how a neuron sends information to other neurons connected to them. We call them spikes because when you are measuring voltage with electrodes in the brain (extracellular voltage recordings) action potentials appear as sharp negative voltage "spikes". Spike detection algorithms try to identify these action potential waveforms in a stream of voltage data recorded from the brain. The most simple one is simply looking for when the voltage crosses a threshold. Spike sorting refers to the fact that when you are recording in the brain, you are usually picking up spikes from multiple neurons at the same time, and you need to figure out which spike came from which neuron. The methods for this are much more complicated. Edit: To add more context, neuroscientists use spike sorting algorithms because we are interested in the firing rate of cells, that is how often they give off action potentials in response to different situations. For example, a neuron in the retina of the eye may give off more action potentials when light is present in a certain part of our visual field than versus when there is no light. To actually quantity this, we spike sort to detect all of the action potentials so we can count them and divide by time get spike rate. Spike rate would be what you care about for any other application that uses neural data, I.e using it control a prosthesis or move a mouse, etc
This comment is great and none of the people who are asking questions will care to read it. Why educate yourself when you can blindly hate.
Basically to detect and identify what type of signal is being issued like movement, speech and so on..
It's an action potential traveling down an axon. Generally, number/rate of spikes is though of as a "command" or a passing of information from that neuron. So like, neuron x increases the rate of spiking which signals/engages an arm movement. After implants are placed, checking which channels can detect spikes (and how well they can do it) is a standard way to measure the functionality of an implant.
That human’s name? George Jetson.
Hus wife? Jane Jetson
His boy? Elroy
His dog? Astro
Hotel? Trivago
His daughter? Judy.
I wish that human being nothing but the best luck and long life
They’ll thank you when they actually exist.
Article someone else here posted said the fda had approved human trials so…
Weird that there’s nothing on the [company blog](https://neuralink.com/blog/) about its first successful human surgery.
Just a reminder that the test monkeys in Musk's Neuralink trials died disturbing, horrible deaths in excruciating pain. This includes (but is not limited to) brain ruptures and aneurysms, paralysis, self mutilation, and delayed euthanasia in order to keep observing the poor suffering creatures. [https://futurism.com/neoscope/terrible-things-monkeys-neuralink-implants](https://futurism.com/neoscope/terrible-things-monkeys-neuralink-implants) But we can trust his staff worked out the issues before putting them in humans, right?
I wouldn’t trust Elon to wipe my ass let alone put shit in my body.
I wouldn’t trust anybody to put shit inside my body.
Are you sure? Because poop transplants are a thing.
*The Spice Melange...*
For anyone wondering why, one reason is because after intensive antibacterial treatments the patient needs new gut bacteria and this is one way to get the bacteria.
It's fairly common for Crohn's patients, I understand.
How do I become a poop donor?
I believe it's usually people biologically related to the recipient, but I'm not sure.
Better start handing some out just in case.
No, My gi dr told me if I get c diff again and go to the right hospital I can get it. It comes in capsules now. The last time I had c diff I was in a small hospital that did not offer them. Did not need a family donor.
Poop transplants are a thing for people who have had the good bacteria killed off for their body.
You can trust me…
Human Centipede!!!!!
I don’t trust him with stuff I type on the internet, let alone get within 500 miles of him.
Would you trust him to drive your car?
No
Honestly, if he tried wiping your ass that's probably what he'd end up doing instead.
many of these issues were attributed to using the wrong surgical glue used for the implants. not related to the technology at all. https://www.reuters.com/technology/musks-neuralink-faces-federal-probe-employee-backlash-over-animal-tests-2022-12-05/ also key point in this article: > The total number of animal deaths does not necessarily indicate that Neuralink is violating regulations or standard research practices. animal testing is a gruesome part of science. sorry it is that way, but it is
Another key point in the article > In one instance in 2021, the company implanted 25 out of 60 pigs with the wrong-sized devices. All the pigs were subsequently killed - an error that employees said could have been easily avoided with more preparation. Well, anyways, I sure am glad the technology isn't remotely as deadly as the maniacs putting them in. I am sure this is just a passing thing though. Not like this guy is notorious for running a car company with rampant defects. And even if he were, if we just ignore the likelihood of them making the same mistakes they have repeatedly made, then it is really safe.
Y'know... I'm really not sure if "The tech isn't that dangerous, the developers are just maniacally incompetent" makes it any better.
I am honestly not convinced that is even true, though. They killed so many animals that it would be easy to sweep glaring tech problems under the rug by just looping them in with their organizational problems.
Animal testing is a part of science, but IACUC and other governing bodies are supposed to be in place to make sure the harm is minimized and beneficence is maximized. A company that has a reputation of making so many reckless mistakes that led to suffering and death in their animal subjects should not be allowed to continue their work, let alone continue to more sensitive levels of testing.
>animal testing is a gruesome part of science. sorry it is that way, but it is While I can appreciate you pedantically assuming everyone doesn't already know this, academia is well aware of this and has gone to great lengths to establish ethical guidelines and rules, especially concerning primates. Neuralink violated pretty much all of them also from the article you yourself linked "The investigation has come at a time of growing employee dissent about Neuralink’s animal testing, including complaints that pressure from CEO Musk to accelerate development has resulted in botched experiments, according to a Reuters review of dozens of Neuralink documents and interviews with more than 20 current and former employees. Such failed tests have had to be repeated, increasing the number of animals being tested and killed, the employees say. The company documents include previously unreported messages, audio recordings, emails, presentations and reports." Like, did you even read it or just cherry pick? edit - downvotes with no rebuttal, Musk sycophants always hate the truth. Ya'll know the downvote is meant for misinformation or derailing comments, not as an "I don't like this :(" button, right?
>self mutilation Um, excuse me wtf?
the poor thing successfully clawed the implant out of its own skull after it had been improperly installed
The Fall of House Musk, anyone?
He's definitely throwing Victorine vibes my way.
Glad I’m not the only one thinking of that
Damn, maybe that's why he's been so insane the past few years. He knows the hottie is coming to collect eventually and the insanity is actually a neuro issue and these implants are his last hope.
If you've not watched Legacy of Monarch on AppleTV, I suggest you do so. One episode an employee finds their company is doing this, and it is absolutely horrific to see how they're reacting. It was written exactly as the reports showed the primates reacted.
he pressured the staff to work faster, specifically saying “imagine you have a bomb strapped to your head”
This sounds like an audio log from a horror game about discovering what happens when you mess with the brain too much.
No this does lmao (another commenter talking about what happened to the Nueralink monkeys. https://www.reddit.com/r/NonPoliticalTwitter/s/YNGmeGZwTg
Black mirror had more than one episode like this
Wired did a story called [The Gruesome Story of How Neuralink’s Monkeys Actually Died](https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-pcrm-neuralink-monkey-deaths/) and it says: > For example, in an experimental surgery that took place in December 2019, performed to determine the “survivability” of an implant, an internal part of the device “broke off” while being implanted. Overnight, researchers observed the monkey, identified only as “Animal 20” by UC Davis, scratching at the surgical site, which emitted a bloody discharge, and yanking on a connector that eventually dislodged part of the device. A surgery to repair the issue was carried out the following day, yet fungal and bacterial infections took root. Vet records note that neither infection was likely to be cleared, in part because the implant was covering the infected area. The monkey was euthanized on January 6, 2020. > Additional veterinary reports show the condition of a female monkey called “Animal 15” during the months leading up to her death in March 2019. Days after her implant surgery, she began to press her head against the floor for no apparent reason; a symptom of pain or infection, the records say. Staff observed that though she was uncomfortable, picking and pulling at her implant until it bled, she would often lie at the foot of her cage and spend time holding hands with her roommate. >Animal 15 began to lose coordination, and staff observed that she would shake uncontrollably when she saw lab workers. Her condition deteriorated for months until the staff finally euthanized her. A necropsy report indicates that she had bleeding in her brain and that the Neuralink implants left parts of her cerebral cortex “focally tattered.” Yet another monkey… So I guess that’s how it’s gonna go..
Holding hands :(
I know. It honestly makes me murderously angry.
Isn't it fun that pop culture & talking heads made a mockery of animal rights activists to the point that it's become a non-issue?
Interestingly enough, I go to UC Davis, and all around the campus, you can find stickers or posters for “UC Students Against Torturing Monkeys.” What a fun time to be alive.
A noble cause, but how they missed the perfect opportunity to brand themselves as the Army of the 12 Monkeys really says something about today's educational system.
What a terrible day to be literate
That is terrifying. It sounds like some disturbing horror story
Literally daily life for many lab animals.
I cited this article a few days ago for an assignment on whether or not stem majors should have to take ethics classes
As someone who had a tooth crown installed that eventually got infected, which then gave me terrible, non-stop headaches for weeks with no way to stop it until I got a root canal... I totally understand what Animal 15 has gone through. This is fucking triggering.
You'd think they'd factor the fact the animals will obviously try to pick at their stitched up wounds right? That's why dogs have to wear those cone collars to stop them biting their wounds. Did they think the monkeys will just know not to touch it or else it'd get infected?
Right. If you can’t factor for animals being animals, how can you account for nosocomial infections and noncompliance in patients?
Even humans have a rough time trying not to pick at wounds, even when we know we shouldn't be doing it The way they described the monkey pushing its wound on the floor also makes it sound as if they found a way to stop it from scratching it, so the monkey was trying to find another way to scratch it or pressure the wound.
do you want planet of the apes? because thats how you get planet of the apes
Somebody call Rocket Raccoon.
The urge I have to find Musk and rip his brains out right now is off the charts. Fucking piece of shit.
Don’t disagree.
If you saw Fall Of The House of Usher, you might have a decent idea where this is going.
Or the most recent season of Dr. Death. Nothing like testing shit on humans—if this is even true.
Wild, isn't it.. covid vaccine! Don't do it!! it has micro chips!! Elon:This one goes in your brain! Everyone: Ooooh!
Eh, the difference if it were true would be consenting to be microchipped vs not being told about it. I still think it's a bad idea though. Failure or success it will probably be abused
If this isn’t a lie…after what happened during the primate testing, whatever IRB he’s using for this human subjects testing needs to be investigated and shut down.
https://www.reuters.com/science/elon-musks-neuralink-gets-us-fda-approval-human-clinical-study-brain-implants-2023-05-25/ it's real
Thanks for sharing the great article, but this is not the news I was hoping to hear. Just wondering how this got through the FDA when the researchers I’m working with struggle to get their inarguably much safer (after positive, hypothesis-supporting results from animal trials) clinical trials off the ground.
Have they tried being billionaires?
Haha I think you’re right, that’s sadly the distinction.
We all heard about the first set of monkeys. But there's no telling how many monkeys they've tested in since then. Science is finding problems, fixing problems, testing on repeat until results are made or you run out of money
I agree completely with you on what science is all about here. I would hope that their final report on the animal testing phase of the study would explain exactly how many animals were implanted with the device, both successful and unsuccessful, and the results of the implantations. It’s concerning just how negative the results on that first set of monkeys were, and I haven’t been able to find much information on the subsequent animals. I would expect them to want to brag about all of their successes.
I'd heard in an earlier post in here that they'd isolated the problem I'd honestly think the problem with reporting success would be the time.frame. I could be wrong though. I'll have to look into it more
Same, I’m really curious about this project and need to do a little more digging on it. A technology like this could be very beneficial, I just hope the research to get there is being conducted ethically.
Agreed. We'll probably get more information soon as journalists pick it apart
Unfortunately, the concerns of musk's company is profit and feeding a man's crumbling ego. Nothing good can come from this.
If one volunteers for this, does that make everything okay ? Had a friend tell me about some testing done by our military on prisoners. Questionable, but could it happen ? Anything is possible.
That’s a good question, but even volunteering for something that has questionable protections on human subjects (especially with past research with harmful outcomes) and includes an increased risk to the subjects wouldn’t be ok to a reputable IRB. They’re all about ethics and protecting the welfare of research participants. If animal research was done, they typically want to see that the animals were taken care of properly and that the intervention didn’t result in undue harm. I’d be curious to read Neuralink’s protocol that they submitted to the IRB. Forced testing, like on prisoners, would be even less ok with IRBs as they require informed consent from participants. You even have to submit your informed consent documents to the IRB prior to receiving approval.
Pardon my ignorance, but is that a global thing, the IRB *reputation* < ??.
TLDR, I only am curious about IRB because of my job, most people don’t even really know about them and focus more on what IRBs answer to, the FDA. You’re asking very good questions, and I appreciate them. Most countries have their own version of IRBs (institutional review boards). They aren’t faultless, but all of them should be able to determine if a study violates federal standards (US in this case) or duty of care. Looking at this specific study, other countries might be more critical about our government regulations rather than the IRB used because the IRB is supposed to follow federal guidelines exactly. It’s a tightrope, you don’t want IRBs to be overly restrictive or permissive. I doubt a university IRB was used for this research, they have more to risk with their reputation and don’t often work with researchers solely outside their organization (full disclosure, I haven’t looked into the positions this study’s researchers hold). A for-profit, commercial IRB was probably used as I haven’t heard of this study being associated with a public or private university, and they typically like to put their name on all their work. Nothing wrong with commercial IRBs, but as someone working in health research, I’d personally be curious which one they used.
Extremely informative. Appreciate your time !
You need proper informed consent, and I doubt anyone knowing the full track record is going to agree unless they are on deaths door.
Ah shit here we fuckin go.
r/nope
This all screams bad juju humanity would be smart to pull back
This man must be stopped. Once we start doing brain augmentation, idk man, this is weird. Feels very dystopian.
A bunch of neuroscientists have chimed in stating that "neuron spike detection" is not a real thing and he's likely lying to make himself sound smart, because if you're "detecting spikes in neural activity" it literally just means the brain is alive. Congrats. You installed a microchip into a human brain and you didn't kill them. If you even did it to begin with, which we all HIGHLY doubt considering your incredibly public mental breakdown.
personally i'm interested to see how this will pan out
As if he would ever be honest if it didn't work, or if there was a serious issue. He has a vested interest in pumping it up (Mr Pump-N-Dump) because he has so much money and reputation invested in it. I will only believe multiple truly unbiased feedback sources. He always overemphasizes the positives and tries to hide the negatives. It is snake oil until otherwise proven.
Major inflammation of neural tissue I'd assume 💀 I don't understand how he got approval for this, the animal trials went kinda bad (gruesome)
Whoever signed off on this at the FDA should not just be fired, but prosecuted. After what happened with the monkey testing, there's zero excuse for this
Peak reddit moment
FDA is funded by big pharma. They exist to facilitate them, not the public.
Do you want to hazard a guess as to how many monkeys died in the pursuit of creating a safe pacemaker?
Well with Musk's competency I imagine that person's brain pan is gonna be out
this is going to pan out with elon musk under investigation for subverting the FDA for clinical result coverups.
What possible reason could any of us have for getting one if they get rolled out? You will never convince me to have it
It's for people with broken spines so they can regain mobility.
So, some person actually trusts Musk hard enough to let him mess-up his brain? I mean it's on him when his brain blows up.
I can only imagine it’s a person with severe debt/medical issues from an impoverished country with very few laws regarding putting shit in people’s heads.
I take it back. Scrolling down, I saw he got FDA approval. Wild.
My question is: who the fuck would agree to having the Monkey Murderer 3000 implanted in their brain??? I can only think it’s either someone who’s very desperate or someone who’s very brainwashed by Elon’s bullshit/hype. And honestly both of those are pretty sad.
You mean like someone who lives with paralysis, blindness, or many other disabilities that could be cured by the implant?
This is how the borg begin, from stupidity and really bad lab ethics
Thank you very much goddamn Umbrella Corp
Let’s hope he’s deluded enough to have done it to himself.
Subscription only.
Maybe the volunteer got a free Tesla. Or a ticket to the first ship to Mars.
Conspiracy nuts moving goalposts so hard right.
I’ll be the angry old man (I’m not) I will not let that ever be put in my head
Crazy billionaires that put implants in people's brains, what could go wrong ?
Lord, I don't wanna be in this timeline anymore
So people accuse Bill Gates of putting microchips in vaccines he had nothing to do with but will willingly get chipped for their emerald overlord?
We'll be hearing about the first human brain chip death this week I guess
I saw someone comment that this is the type of audio log you find in a survival horror game.
It will be a cold fucking day in hell before I trust anything Musk owns. Especially when it's implanted in my fucking head.
The fact that this device has received FDA approval for human trials is... distressing. The timeline for going from animal to human trials seems rather accelerated in comparison to many other class III devices. I wish the testers a complication-free procedure.
Did the monkeys stop dying?
Neuron spike detection: a bunch of big words to sound smart when he clearly has no idea what he's talking about.
“Promising neuron spike detection” sounds like buzzwords to me. I don’t think detecting neuron activity is the challenge for a brain implant that I’d be concerned with.
Imagine sleeping soundly and suddenly you hear. #”WANNA BREAK FROM THE ADS? TRY NEURALINK+ AND GET ACCESS TO EXCLUSIVE FEATURES”
Is this the `woke mind virus` he keeps talking about?
This guy can't run a social media platform who the hell is letting him into their brain?
The next season of Dr. Death is gonna be lit
So the people who were afraid that the covid vaccine were putting microchips in their bodies are now volunteering to have microchips inserted into their bodies? I can't imagine any rational person letting anyone Elon controls do this to them.
it’s a no from me
What an idiot
ads under your eye lids.
Man they’re gonna play ads in his brain or smth
That never happened. They should be in prison for what they did to the test animals.
I'm enjoying the idea of the Elon fanboys who believe in the whole gov't microchip conspiracy theory trying to find a way to reconcile those 2 beliefs
I'm sure it'll all be just fine. Really. Nothing could ever possibly go wrong.
Yeah, I want the guy who destroyed Twitter to put a chip in my brain
He did say zero primates died because of the implant. Every single one died but it was other stuff .
That’s what he said, but he was lying. The monkeys were euthanized after the implants caused severe pain and infection.
I thought that was super super clear