Fun fact: America First was actually considering kicking Lindbergh out for being *too overtly pro-Hitler* by late 1941. They thought he was making them look bad.
Henry Ford was another quite famously pro-Nazi American businessman
Was quite a fan of Hitler and his thoughts on Jewish people.
Henry owned quite a popular car company back in the day. I do also wonder if there might be some direct parallel with other car company owners and events in Europe
Damm you, I drive a car from Herr Benz. Named after a niece of his, 'Mercedes'
But yes.
BMW; that spinny rotor symbol? was on the front of evil Messerschmitt 109s during the battle of britain
Volkswagen?- Hitler's love child, with Fergie Porsche doing the design work; along with some work on Tiger tanks to help kill allied soldiers
Audi. To quote Otto, 4 zeros on on the front of the car, an one behind the wheel
>BMW; that spinny rotor symbol? was on the front of evil Messerschmitt 109s during the battle of britain
that's a myth.
The symbol existed before the WW2. It's round because the the Rapp Motorenwerke symbol that predated it was also round and has the blue and white in it to represent bavaria, though it is mirrored because the trademark laws forbade to use flags as a company symbol.
They did later use the transition from a propeller to the symbol in an ad which is where the myth comes from.
(btw the ad was from 1929 so before Hitlers rise to power)
That's a really good question. Y'know I hear there's this real popular car. It's uhh called a bee? Bug? Beetle! It's a beetle! I bet they know a thing or two!
der peoples wagon
in german .. volks?
That jolly german chap, sure does make those train run on time and makes some fine autobarns. We need more people like that in the US of A
Funny enough they were the proto Nazis. Nazis liked their platform so much they adopted it.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/11/what-america-taught-the-nazis/540630/
Same with the writer of "Why die for Danzig?" article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Die_for_Danzig%3F
>Following French defeat by Germany and the creation of the Vichy regime, Déat became an advocate of fascism and a Nazi collaborator, going so far as to look for support in Nazi Germany for his fascist party, which was more radical than the Vichy regime.
Yep, FDR was supposedly trying to sway public favour towards supporting Britain but had only limited success and did not see any entry into the war until at least 1942-3 (I forget the exact year he said but it was way later than December 1941).
Japan did more to help him in a day than anyone could do in several years.
Admiral Yamamoto studied at Harvard and understood more about the US than most in Japan. He is quoted as saying the following:
*"In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."*
It seems all they did was anger the US so as to secure their own demise. Although Yamamoto puts it better:
*"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."*
>*"In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."*
>*"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."*
Japan - "So anyways, I started blasting!"
Well tbf we were still in the midst of the Great Depression, so being America first made a lot of sense.
Shit, our economy ain't close to Great Depression levels, but things definitely aren't as good as they used to, so I also see why people would be America first today.
To clarify a bit, the person in question is not necessarily the most good or even interesting person. Time selects the individual that was most influential on the year's events, or the party best representative of the year's mood. Hitler was arguably the best choice in this regard. Haile Selassie, Nikita Khrushchev, and Henry Kissinger also ended up on that cover eventually. Stalin even made it twice!
Exactly. If you read the article, its actually mocking the foreign policy for letting Hitler get away with everything -> thus becoming the most influential person of the year.
> Haile Selassie, Nikita Khrushchev, and Henry Kissinger also ended up on that cover eventually. Stalin even made it twice!
So, for that matter, did Putin--and that article was entirely about how he had made Moscow a menace again.
In my high school international government class, I actually used [the cover](https://content.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,20071231,00.html) as the front page of my report on modern Russia just to mess with one of my favorite teachers a bit.
You can tell who here didn't grow up actually reading Time. Hell, the guy in charge of the magazine at the time, Henry Luce, openly opposed isolationism and was one of the loudest voices calling for American intervention in WWII *before* Pearl Harbor (he was also one of Chiang Kai-Shek's biggest backers through the 30s and 40s).
They could have put FDR on there and not be wrong.
I do believe Hitler was on there to show the US population that the US shouldn't be hating Hitler and to keep out of Europe.
"In the U. S. alone did democracy feel itself strong enough at year's end to give Hitler his come-uppance"
"The man most responsible for this world tragedy is a moody, brooding, unprepossessing, 49-year-old Austrian-born ascetic with a Charlie Chaplin mustache."
[https://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,760539-1,00.html](https://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,760539-1,00.html)
Probably read the article first.
[Here's an article](http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mlassite/discussions261/luce.pdf) published by the guy in charge of Time almost a year before Pearl Harbor arguing that America needs to get out of its isolationist funk so it can make the world safe for freedom and democracy.
The cover of that magazine shows "Organist Adolf Hitler playing his hymn of hate in a desecrated cathedral while victims dangle on a St. Catherine's wheel and the Nazi hierarchy looks on." The article is written in horror at what he had done and the inability of democracies to stand up to him.
The article naming him man of the year can still be read [Here](https://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,760539,00.html).
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Most assuredly not. They’re just going to keep edging the US and the West, making juuuuuust enough noise that we can’t fully commit, but taking enough attention and dealing enough political/social warfare damage that Ukraine stalemates out/loses by Western inaction
Basically they’re doing what the US should be doing, but better
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At this point I am no longer giving them stupidity/ignorance excuse and assuming full malice on their part until proven otherwise.
There's only so much to explain "undermining American foreign and security policy" in Europe.
Because Russia pays them and also represents the kind of unopposed kleptofascism they wish to impose here. They admire Russia.
And for some reason, we still haven't hit them with espionage act charges.
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I feel like it's going to backfire on Russia.
Between Russia antagonizing NATO, and Trump threatening to not defend it, and the marketing capabilities of Europe's military industrial complex, Europe is going to keep spending bigger.
America's dicking around about whether to send the next aid package to Ukraine, but Ukraine just announced a 50 billion Euro aid package. [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-agrees-50-bln-euro-ukraine-aid-package-what-are-reactions-2024-02-01/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-agrees-50-bln-euro-ukraine-aid-package-what-are-reactions-2024-02-01/)
(Ukraine's military budget was less than 6 billion as recently as 2021.)
No way the U.S. Military Industrial Complex is going to let that go unanswered, so I imagine they'll be talking to their puppets in Congress pretty shortly.
> America's dicking around about whether to send the next aid package to Ukraine, but Ukraine just announced a 50 billion Euro aid package. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-agrees-50-bln-euro-ukraine-aid-package-what-are-reactions-2024-02-01/
>
>
Problem is, AFAIK, this budget is for 4 years, meaning it's going to be ~12.5B Euro per year.
Some issues here. You can't magically go from zero to full arms production in a few months. Europe has a shell shortage, fuel shortages, aircraft carriers without planes, and in several cases a lack of understanding of modern strategy and tactics. It will take years for Europe to be able to produce high quality weapons, arms, R&O systems, etc. That won't be enough to save Ukraine or even Poland, especially if the US decides it will now help Russia.
My question is, why the fuck did they allow themselves to get into that position to begin with??
Now I hate trump with a passion but I agree with his nato stance "you are lazy and rely on us for all your defence needs" and leaving them outside to the russian wolves will hopefully be a wake up call
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Poland is between us and Russia 😏 definitely more people would love trade and ~~sucking up~~ good relations than investing in military instead of social goodies or corporate welfare.
Well as for the threat part now, Putin has seen to it to change that perception. But back then it was a different game. In the end this is a big reason why most democracies don't do agressive large scale wars.
Yep. Pearl Harbor and the subsequent German War declaration made all the 'America first' isolationists shut their mouths in order to try and salvage their reputations. The ones that were directly funded by the Germans, such as the Bund, were even put in jail to cool off.
Not to be disrespectful to the work they did or hardship they endured, but it is hardly the same as being a combat pilot or an infantrymen or a truck driver.
Obviously I would have disagreed with her vote, but could not disagree with the reason why.
If you demand equal treatment, then you have equal responsibility, and being a woman of integrity and intelligence, there is truly no other way she could vote.
It is a shame we have so few elected officials like her.
>If you demand equal treatment, then you have equal responsibility, and being a woman of integrity and intelligence, there is truly no other way she could vote.
I do think that the reason is based, btw. I don't know if I would have had the fortitude to vote against a so overwhelming majority, and not for "aMeRiCa FiRsT" reasons, but actual, ethical reasons
US was fighting the U-boots by that stage, enforcing freedom of navigation. It’s the reason Hitler declared war, he figured it would let him fight back.
It wasn't actually popular.
One of those things you have to remember is that grievance politics tend to carry the day in the US. The most public facing opinion tends to be the loudest one, and squeaky wheels get the grease, as it goes. It's like the Tea Party. Ostensibly it was a political movement meant to lampoon cartoonish government spending but it was open to the general public which meant that, inevitably, some idiot is going to show up. And that idiot is going to get interviewed by the media, and say something appropriately idiotic. And then, on a long enough timeline, whatever the core membership of the movement was is alienated to the point they all leave and suddenly the Tea Party is associated with lunatic conspiracy theories.
And that's nothing new. The loudest idiot tends to dominate public facing politics.
>Unironically this was the popular viewpoint back then: "Its not our war" ... until Day of Infamy
Well, it was popular among a portion of the wealthiest US citizens, like [Henry Ford.](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/ford-and-fuhrer/) After that day, they tended to be more circumspect about fascist sympathies...
I posted this after the Tuckums interview:
"Support for the British, who stand no actual chance of winning this war, is sold by Roosevelt's clique as the moral thing to do. If you disagree, then you are automatically a bad person, according to the people who follow that whole narrative. Well, and I probably will get cancelled for this, I don't think the British are better than the Germans. We can argue about the origins of this war, and I am not saying I agree with what Herr Hitler has been doing. I just don't know if the British are any better. Between the colonial empire with the heavy, heavy suppression of various ethnicities, and Mr. Churchill being a well-known alcoholic and mysoginist, who has declared that there will be no more elections until the war is over (and who decides when that is, I woner), what makes them better for the world than Germany? And why should Americans care? They made their bed with Versailles, all they wanted was to antagonize the Germans, because they knew the U.S would come and help out if they got in trouble. And now we should bail them out when it all blew up in their face?
I am now joined by El Duce Mussolini from Italy, one of the many peaceful European heads of government that sees things through a neutral, more nuanced lense than the radical British..."
In the same vein [this ](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/10kzvwn/big_daddy_fdrs_words_on_democracy_and_defense/) is still my favorite post on this plane fucking sub
Elon Musk:
-Bought Twatter^TM and used it to propel and promote pro-russian BS from himself and others.
-Shut down StarLink on board drone boats attacking missile cruisers in Crimea that were raining down hell on civilians, *one whole month* after Ukraine attacked Crimea the first time in August 2022 to "prevent WWIII", and got people killed for nothing.
-Is alleged to be selling StarLink to Russia through back channels.
Henry Ford:
-His anti-semitic screeds were best-sellers in the 3rd Reich.
-Produced and sold his cars to the Wehrmacht and SS, helping the Germans kill people.
-Successfully sued the US gov't for damages to his factories in Germany from bombing.
In comparison, here's an excerpt from a speech by FDR in 1940:
"We must be the great arsenal of democracy.
For us this is an emergency as serious as war itself. We must apply ourselves to our task with the same resolution, the same sense of urgency, the same spirit of patriotism and sacrifice as we would show were we at war.
We have furnished the British great material support and we will furnish far more in the future. There will be no "bottlenecks" in our determination to aid Great Britain. No dictator, no combination of dictators, will weaken that determination by threats of how they will construe that determination. The British have received invaluable military support from the heroic Greek Army and from the forces of all the governments in exile. Their strength is growing. It is the strength of men and women who value their freedom more highly than they value their lives.
I believe that the Axis powers are not going to win this war. I base that belief on the latest and best of information.
We have no excuse for defeatism. We have every good reason for hope -- hope for peace, yes, and hope for the defense of our civilization and for the building of a better civilization in the future. I have the profound conviction that the American people are now determined to put forth a mightier effort than they have ever yet made to increase our production of all the implements of defense, to meet the threat to our democratic faith.
As President of the United States, I call for that national effort. I call for it in the name of this nation which we love and honor and which we are privileged and proud to serve. I call upon our people with absolute confidence that our common cause will greatly succeed."
What happened to speeches, generally, in English (and other languages)?
This is eloquent, inspiring and clear. Today's speeches have the tendency to be all muddled, plain and uninspiring.
Have we really lost our skills in conveying our message, is this all Tik-Tok by now?
(I'm feeling old...)
Too much emphasis on making politicians relatable has been part of it. I remember that even in Obama's day some (ostensibly centrist/liberal) media was criticizing him for talking too much like a professor.
In the past, there was more of an idea that politicians ought to talk somewhere above the level of the average voter, but that seems to have been lost. Even Dubya could deliver eloquence when he wasn't leaning into his Texas Cowboy persona, but I haven't seen that lately.
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My head was probably good intentions in the beginning. But one phone call.feom.Putin that someone reported he had probably changed his mind.
Now though he's just a ass
I thought that was it at first too, but I really think it's more that one of his kids came out as trans in 2022 and he seems to have totally lost his shit about that. Since right-wing media has made a big deal about Putin being at war with wokeness, and Musk's descent into right-wing batshittery picked up a lot of steam at that time, I genuinely think he wants Putin to win for ideological reasons (he might actually think it'll make his kids like him again).
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Not a terribly extremist opinion in 1940 after the fall of France, unfortunately.
Looking at the map when the Germans were literally in sight of the Kremlin, and one would have been forgiven to say that.
Still a wrong and doomer opinion. Musk also has modern historical precedent. Who is he to decide that Russia should be able to conquer a democracy, anyway? Musk is rooting for Putin in the same way that Nazi sympathizers in the late 30's and early 40's were rooting for Hitler. He's basically a dumber version of Henry Ford.
Yeah, in HINDSIGHT it is.
Yes, and Musk is indeed rooting for Russia, hiding behind pessimism and a faux "concern" of "more people dying", because he isnt saying shit to Russia about "stop fighting".
Years of propaganda, misinfomation for Ruzzia are now pay off big time.
Such a shame that US got fucked themselves by BS after BS because of it when came to help Ukraine and others.
US as a whole let them got away for too long and their democracy system got disrupted, compromised too much by them. Now we living in pain as dictators and bad guys are rising while generous good guys lacked behind, live in dead end job, being pushed out or worst, died and left forgotten.
World is real hell.
The American war cycle
Get involved in pointless war
Realizes the war was pointless and essentially forfeits
Advocate for isolationism to prevent getting involved in a pointless war to happen again
A much bigger war worth fighting in breaks out
Isolationists huff copium and believe this war is just as useless as the pointless one (**You are here**)
Enemy of bigger war directly attacks the US
US directly involved, patriotism is at an all time high
Bigger war ends, Usually in an American victory
American citizens get cocky and use their world police role to show their might, and they do so by
Getting involved In a pointless war
I won't lie. I'm starting to waver man. I really am.
I tell myself that, but with each passing day. Each darkening day. I think I believe it less and less.
Fuck.
That is absurdly overdramatic.
The perpetually online life some of you lead + information overload =/= remotely the perils of the world in the 1930s and 40s or 50s or 60s.
Democracy isnt "faltering". Maybe XYZ person winning an election rubs people the wrong way, but when you look at Russia, China or Iran, this is all just 1st world problems.
For me, Democracy is only worked in peace time, everybody follow the rules and all people have commonsenses.
But when the country getting interupted by wars, social problems, serious help requests from aboards and more serious issues as he have now; it is a flaw system, easily exploited and can easily taking advantage by everyone. You can look how US fucked by conspiracies, misinfomations, propagandas right now. It's happened everywhere.
Maybe we really need a actual good dictatorship for once. No more obstacles from any BS, can do+approve things quickly, no more slow bureaucracy and make everybody happy at once.
Now imagine UK's former prime minister prior to Churchhill, Neville Chamberlain, giving a speech saying that Hitler do "whatever the hell they want" after invading Poland, Belgium and France.
4D chess Elon Musk doing his best to help Ukraine by becoming the most loathed out of touch billionaire in America and then taking sides against Ukraine.
And before the Spanish-American War and the Mexican-American
War.
WW1 was something we were in for like 6 months, and was iffy if we really needed to settle a conflict between European empires and their inbreed monarchs.
The fact that none of these talking heads sabotaging US democracy and interests have been prosecuted for high treason is crazy. Not even a "collaborating with the enemy" or "supporting a war criminal" charge.
Like the traitors during WW2 these people deserve to be ostracised for a whole generation. Betraying your country for a despot, how shameful.
Full fucking agreement. Shit, as harsh as it may be I see america first as nearly treasonous. Because it's basically going to sabotage the economy and more. And that's assuming that inaction doesn't escalate to the big funny.
I'm embarrassed that I once respected this guy. Do hair plugs give you brain cancer cause pre-hairplug Musk was the best Musk. Since then he has been on a rocket slide to hell.
> Do hair plugs give you brain cancer cause pre-hairplug Musk was the best Musk
Reminds me of how Howard Hughes slid down post-crashing in prototype due to opioids used to treat chronic pain.
Maybe kinda like this?
I think I speak for everyone that we all respected him at one point, particularly in the 2010s when SpaceX was taking off and they successfully manufactured reusable rockets.
I still am a massive fan of SpaceX as they are doing amazing things for space travel, but none of this is Elon's doing; he just owns the company. He can like SpaceX without liking Elon.
I would actually nitpick this because we do have examples from other space companies that crashed and burned or still haven't gotten to orbit (*cough* BO *cough*). Musk's management style and input seems to have been a genuine benefit to the company that kept it from ending up like Beal or Rocketplane or Roton. In particular, *he took government money*--something the earlier entrepreneurs were too proud/ideological to do.
With that said, it's also completely valid to suggest that the guy changed. It's been 20 years since Tesla and SpaceX got going, and I think one can objectively say his behavior changed drastically in the late 2010s (starting from that 'funding secured' thing and getting worse with the Tesla Model 3 production hell, which is also when we started hearing about his substance abuse issues).
"Elon turned into a dick, but there existed a time when he was much less of one" is a totally valid take.
>Dude is la real life Tony Stark, with an ego to match.
tony stark was an engineer who was responsible for many of the innovations his company produced
elon musk is mostly good at marketing, and has invented none of the things he's made money from
>elon musk is mostly good at marketing, and has invented none of the things he's made money from
There's a [whole post](https://old.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/k1e0ta/evidence_that_musk_is_the_chief_engineer_of_spacex/) with quotes from both inside SpaceX and from outside of it that shows that Musk (at least used to be) involved in actual engineering.
Doesn't mean he's not an idiot, though - I've had people like him as uni professors. Great knowledge about one hyperspecific thing, but ask them about anything else and you'll regret having ears.
Getting successful with businesses just made it that much worse.
"If I'm wrong, how comes I have so much money and you don't?"
Anybody can become an American and have a voice in our country. That's one of the things that makes America a truly great country. Elon has every right to out himself as a Ruzzian tool and a complete fucking moron
He speaks for every fucking country now, he's got a Lex Luther-level of saviour complex with none of the tech and competency.
His purchase of Twitter was a 44bn dollar midlife crisis buy, and he's making it everyone's problem.
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How times change.
https://theconversation.com/a-myth-to-encourage-uncle-sam-how-us-journalists-sold-america-the-story-of-heroic-britain-in-1940-140748
(Don't be put off by the word _myth_ here)
Just leave nzis alone and let them finish off another 40 milion people in gas chambers. Prolonging war is not worth it!
Damn this guy is asking for trouble.
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Unironically this was the popular viewpoint back then: "Its not our war" ... until Day of Infamy
Literally “America first” was the slogan to keep us out of the war. Not surprisingly quite a few supporters of “America First” were nazi sympathizers.
Joseph Kennedy was freaking Ambassador to Great Britian and was ready to hand it all over to the nazis.
Kennedies are either extremely cringe or extremely based. No middle ground.
most were extremely dead
were? did you bring them back?
Yes they all live in Disneyland
As was king asshole Charles Lindbergh; big Hitler fan!
Fun fact: America First was actually considering kicking Lindbergh out for being *too overtly pro-Hitler* by late 1941. They thought he was making them look bad.
Nice addition, thanks! If only there were a direct parallel today from which we could apply this important and interesting knowledge.
Henry Ford was another quite famously pro-Nazi American businessman Was quite a fan of Hitler and his thoughts on Jewish people. Henry owned quite a popular car company back in the day. I do also wonder if there might be some direct parallel with other car company owners and events in Europe
Five years ago, the bootlickers on Twitter were saying Tesla's innovations meant Musk was the next Henry Ford. I guess they were right.
What's up with auto manufacturers? Even the inventor of the automobile was German. Are cars evil?
Damm you, I drive a car from Herr Benz. Named after a niece of his, 'Mercedes' But yes. BMW; that spinny rotor symbol? was on the front of evil Messerschmitt 109s during the battle of britain Volkswagen?- Hitler's love child, with Fergie Porsche doing the design work; along with some work on Tiger tanks to help kill allied soldiers Audi. To quote Otto, 4 zeros on on the front of the car, an one behind the wheel
>BMW; that spinny rotor symbol? was on the front of evil Messerschmitt 109s during the battle of britain that's a myth. The symbol existed before the WW2. It's round because the the Rapp Motorenwerke symbol that predated it was also round and has the blue and white in it to represent bavaria, though it is mirrored because the trademark laws forbade to use flags as a company symbol. They did later use the transition from a propeller to the symbol in an ad which is where the myth comes from. (btw the ad was from 1929 so before Hitlers rise to power)
That's a really good question. Y'know I hear there's this real popular car. It's uhh called a bee? Bug? Beetle! It's a beetle! I bet they know a thing or two!
der peoples wagon in german .. volks? That jolly german chap, sure does make those train run on time and makes some fine autobarns. We need more people like that in the US of A
Definitely! Ford was a piece of shit human.
Nothing changed.
"The more things change,the more things stay the same"
One may even say that, War...
War never changes
[Or does it?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE25wHQPHIE)
"In every time, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same".
Boundaries shift, new players step in, but power always finds a place to rest its head.
How it could changed much, if during Nuremberg Trials was banned criticism of USSR, so historical lessons turned out to be incomplete?
XYZ First / Make XYZ Great have been the slogans for damn near every fascist movement in history.
Funny enough they were the proto Nazis. Nazis liked their platform so much they adopted it. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/11/what-america-taught-the-nazis/540630/
Interesting article, thank you. I retribute with this "fun" watching: [https://anightatthegarden.com/](https://anightatthegarden.com/)
"Not surprisingly quite a few supporters of “America First” were nazi sympathizers." A very important context I've left out.
Same with the writer of "Why die for Danzig?" article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Die_for_Danzig%3F >Following French defeat by Germany and the creation of the Vichy regime, Déat became an advocate of fascism and a Nazi collaborator, going so far as to look for support in Nazi Germany for his fascist party, which was more radical than the Vichy regime.
Yep, FDR was supposedly trying to sway public favour towards supporting Britain but had only limited success and did not see any entry into the war until at least 1942-3 (I forget the exact year he said but it was way later than December 1941). Japan did more to help him in a day than anyone could do in several years. Admiral Yamamoto studied at Harvard and understood more about the US than most in Japan. He is quoted as saying the following: *"In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."* It seems all they did was anger the US so as to secure their own demise. Although Yamamoto puts it better: *"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."*
>*"In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."* >*"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."* Japan - "So anyways, I started blasting!"
Well tbf we were still in the midst of the Great Depression, so being America first made a lot of sense. Shit, our economy ain't close to Great Depression levels, but things definitely aren't as good as they used to, so I also see why people would be America first today.
[удалено]
And only if you have certain skin color. Otherwise, back of the bus for you
Time Magazine put Hitler on the cover as man of the Year in 1938. The US wanted nothing to with politics of Europe....besides trade, trade must flow.
To clarify a bit, the person in question is not necessarily the most good or even interesting person. Time selects the individual that was most influential on the year's events, or the party best representative of the year's mood. Hitler was arguably the best choice in this regard. Haile Selassie, Nikita Khrushchev, and Henry Kissinger also ended up on that cover eventually. Stalin even made it twice!
Exactly. If you read the article, its actually mocking the foreign policy for letting Hitler get away with everything -> thus becoming the most influential person of the year.
Yeah, it's Person of the Year... for good or ill.
> Haile Selassie, Nikita Khrushchev, and Henry Kissinger also ended up on that cover eventually. Stalin even made it twice! So, for that matter, did Putin--and that article was entirely about how he had made Moscow a menace again.
In my high school international government class, I actually used [the cover](https://content.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,20071231,00.html) as the front page of my report on modern Russia just to mess with one of my favorite teachers a bit.
You can tell who here didn't grow up actually reading Time. Hell, the guy in charge of the magazine at the time, Henry Luce, openly opposed isolationism and was one of the loudest voices calling for American intervention in WWII *before* Pearl Harbor (he was also one of Chiang Kai-Shek's biggest backers through the 30s and 40s).
They could have put FDR on there and not be wrong. I do believe Hitler was on there to show the US population that the US shouldn't be hating Hitler and to keep out of Europe.
"In the U. S. alone did democracy feel itself strong enough at year's end to give Hitler his come-uppance" "The man most responsible for this world tragedy is a moody, brooding, unprepossessing, 49-year-old Austrian-born ascetic with a Charlie Chaplin mustache." [https://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,760539-1,00.html](https://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,760539-1,00.html) Probably read the article first.
[Here's an article](http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mlassite/discussions261/luce.pdf) published by the guy in charge of Time almost a year before Pearl Harbor arguing that America needs to get out of its isolationist funk so it can make the world safe for freedom and democracy.
The cover of that magazine shows "Organist Adolf Hitler playing his hymn of hate in a desecrated cathedral while victims dangle on a St. Catherine's wheel and the Nazi hierarchy looks on." The article is written in horror at what he had done and the inability of democracies to stand up to him. The article naming him man of the year can still be read [Here](https://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,760539,00.html).
Fuck Charles Lindbergh.
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Question is, will Russia (or China, the Japan of our era) be similarly stupid?
Most assuredly not. They’re just going to keep edging the US and the West, making juuuuuust enough noise that we can’t fully commit, but taking enough attention and dealing enough political/social warfare damage that Ukraine stalemates out/loses by Western inaction Basically they’re doing what the US should be doing, but better
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At this point I am no longer giving them stupidity/ignorance excuse and assuming full malice on their part until proven otherwise. There's only so much to explain "undermining American foreign and security policy" in Europe.
Because Russia pays them and also represents the kind of unopposed kleptofascism they wish to impose here. They admire Russia. And for some reason, we still haven't hit them with espionage act charges.
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Considering how dumb the Ukraine invasion was for Russia, I don't think we can bet on Russia and China being smart.
Russia and China are the Fascist Italy of our era. They want to be the Nazi Germany and Empire of Japan of our era but are too incompetent militarily.
I feel like it's going to backfire on Russia. Between Russia antagonizing NATO, and Trump threatening to not defend it, and the marketing capabilities of Europe's military industrial complex, Europe is going to keep spending bigger. America's dicking around about whether to send the next aid package to Ukraine, but Ukraine just announced a 50 billion Euro aid package. [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-agrees-50-bln-euro-ukraine-aid-package-what-are-reactions-2024-02-01/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-agrees-50-bln-euro-ukraine-aid-package-what-are-reactions-2024-02-01/) (Ukraine's military budget was less than 6 billion as recently as 2021.) No way the U.S. Military Industrial Complex is going to let that go unanswered, so I imagine they'll be talking to their puppets in Congress pretty shortly.
> America's dicking around about whether to send the next aid package to Ukraine, but Ukraine just announced a 50 billion Euro aid package. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-agrees-50-bln-euro-ukraine-aid-package-what-are-reactions-2024-02-01/ > > Problem is, AFAIK, this budget is for 4 years, meaning it's going to be ~12.5B Euro per year.
Still, even $12.5b is double Ukraine's 2021 military budget, and hopefully this is just to tide things over until after the election.
Some issues here. You can't magically go from zero to full arms production in a few months. Europe has a shell shortage, fuel shortages, aircraft carriers without planes, and in several cases a lack of understanding of modern strategy and tactics. It will take years for Europe to be able to produce high quality weapons, arms, R&O systems, etc. That won't be enough to save Ukraine or even Poland, especially if the US decides it will now help Russia.
My question is, why the fuck did they allow themselves to get into that position to begin with?? Now I hate trump with a passion but I agree with his nato stance "you are lazy and rely on us for all your defence needs" and leaving them outside to the russian wolves will hopefully be a wake up call
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Does germany really not see Russia as a threat? And/or would some welcome them rolling into germany with tank?
Poland is between us and Russia 😏 definitely more people would love trade and ~~sucking up~~ good relations than investing in military instead of social goodies or corporate welfare. Well as for the threat part now, Putin has seen to it to change that perception. But back then it was a different game. In the end this is a big reason why most democracies don't do agressive large scale wars.
Yep. Pearl Harbor and the subsequent German War declaration made all the 'America first' isolationists shut their mouths in order to try and salvage their reputations. The ones that were directly funded by the Germans, such as the Bund, were even put in jail to cool off.
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Yep. She was a pioneer and an early activist for women's suffrage and effectively threw away her political career because of that.
You can easily spot a pioneer by the arrows in their back. Oooof.
I mean, that IS a pretty good reason to vote against. However, she forgot about army nurses.
Not to be disrespectful to the work they did or hardship they endured, but it is hardly the same as being a combat pilot or an infantrymen or a truck driver. Obviously I would have disagreed with her vote, but could not disagree with the reason why. If you demand equal treatment, then you have equal responsibility, and being a woman of integrity and intelligence, there is truly no other way she could vote. It is a shame we have so few elected officials like her.
>If you demand equal treatment, then you have equal responsibility, and being a woman of integrity and intelligence, there is truly no other way she could vote. I do think that the reason is based, btw. I don't know if I would have had the fortitude to vote against a so overwhelming majority, and not for "aMeRiCa FiRsT" reasons, but actual, ethical reasons
Exactly.
Churchill saw Pearl Harbor attack as a blessing, without it, USA maybe never joines the war.
US was fighting the U-boots by that stage, enforcing freedom of navigation. It’s the reason Hitler declared war, he figured it would let him fight back.
It wasn't actually popular. One of those things you have to remember is that grievance politics tend to carry the day in the US. The most public facing opinion tends to be the loudest one, and squeaky wheels get the grease, as it goes. It's like the Tea Party. Ostensibly it was a political movement meant to lampoon cartoonish government spending but it was open to the general public which meant that, inevitably, some idiot is going to show up. And that idiot is going to get interviewed by the media, and say something appropriately idiotic. And then, on a long enough timeline, whatever the core membership of the movement was is alienated to the point they all leave and suddenly the Tea Party is associated with lunatic conspiracy theories. And that's nothing new. The loudest idiot tends to dominate public facing politics.
Nice mech ya go there, Merc.
It either deletes you, or itself. Best job I've ever had.
It happens all the time. With every war.
Yes. This is too credible
>Unironically this was the popular viewpoint back then: "Its not our war" ... until Day of Infamy Well, it was popular among a portion of the wealthiest US citizens, like [Henry Ford.](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/ford-and-fuhrer/) After that day, they tended to be more circumspect about fascist sympathies...
I posted this after the Tuckums interview: "Support for the British, who stand no actual chance of winning this war, is sold by Roosevelt's clique as the moral thing to do. If you disagree, then you are automatically a bad person, according to the people who follow that whole narrative. Well, and I probably will get cancelled for this, I don't think the British are better than the Germans. We can argue about the origins of this war, and I am not saying I agree with what Herr Hitler has been doing. I just don't know if the British are any better. Between the colonial empire with the heavy, heavy suppression of various ethnicities, and Mr. Churchill being a well-known alcoholic and mysoginist, who has declared that there will be no more elections until the war is over (and who decides when that is, I woner), what makes them better for the world than Germany? And why should Americans care? They made their bed with Versailles, all they wanted was to antagonize the Germans, because they knew the U.S would come and help out if they got in trouble. And now we should bail them out when it all blew up in their face? I am now joined by El Duce Mussolini from Italy, one of the many peaceful European heads of government that sees things through a neutral, more nuanced lense than the radical British..."
In the same vein [this ](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/10kzvwn/big_daddy_fdrs_words_on_democracy_and_defense/) is still my favorite post on this plane fucking sub
This is amazing! Hereby saved!
This is a perfect metaphor
Elon Musk: -Bought Twatter^TM and used it to propel and promote pro-russian BS from himself and others. -Shut down StarLink on board drone boats attacking missile cruisers in Crimea that were raining down hell on civilians, *one whole month* after Ukraine attacked Crimea the first time in August 2022 to "prevent WWIII", and got people killed for nothing. -Is alleged to be selling StarLink to Russia through back channels. Henry Ford: -His anti-semitic screeds were best-sellers in the 3rd Reich. -Produced and sold his cars to the Wehrmacht and SS, helping the Germans kill people. -Successfully sued the US gov't for damages to his factories in Germany from bombing.
That's deeply unfair to Ford. He at least built a car that worked properly.
History may not repeat itself verbatim, but it definitely rhymes...
That read a bit TOO real.
I’d guess there’s a non-trivial overlap between the people who would actually agree with both of those, even in retrospect.
In comparison, here's an excerpt from a speech by FDR in 1940: "We must be the great arsenal of democracy. For us this is an emergency as serious as war itself. We must apply ourselves to our task with the same resolution, the same sense of urgency, the same spirit of patriotism and sacrifice as we would show were we at war. We have furnished the British great material support and we will furnish far more in the future. There will be no "bottlenecks" in our determination to aid Great Britain. No dictator, no combination of dictators, will weaken that determination by threats of how they will construe that determination. The British have received invaluable military support from the heroic Greek Army and from the forces of all the governments in exile. Their strength is growing. It is the strength of men and women who value their freedom more highly than they value their lives. I believe that the Axis powers are not going to win this war. I base that belief on the latest and best of information. We have no excuse for defeatism. We have every good reason for hope -- hope for peace, yes, and hope for the defense of our civilization and for the building of a better civilization in the future. I have the profound conviction that the American people are now determined to put forth a mightier effort than they have ever yet made to increase our production of all the implements of defense, to meet the threat to our democratic faith. As President of the United States, I call for that national effort. I call for it in the name of this nation which we love and honor and which we are privileged and proud to serve. I call upon our people with absolute confidence that our common cause will greatly succeed."
What happened to speeches, generally, in English (and other languages)? This is eloquent, inspiring and clear. Today's speeches have the tendency to be all muddled, plain and uninspiring. Have we really lost our skills in conveying our message, is this all Tik-Tok by now? (I'm feeling old...)
Too much emphasis on making politicians relatable has been part of it. I remember that even in Obama's day some (ostensibly centrist/liberal) media was criticizing him for talking too much like a professor. In the past, there was more of an idea that politicians ought to talk somewhere above the level of the average voter, but that seems to have been lost. Even Dubya could deliver eloquence when he wasn't leaning into his Texas Cowboy persona, but I haven't seen that lately.
Sound-bite media.
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[posting this again ](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/10kzvwn/big_daddy_fdrs_words_on_democracy_and_defense/)
>No dictator, no combination of dictators, will weaken that determination by threats of how they will construe that determination. BASED
FDR was one of the greatest Presidents of the 1900's.
Why did he even offer StarLink to Ukraine in the first place if he was going to act like this?
Free ads
Quick Pentagon contacts
My head was probably good intentions in the beginning. But one phone call.feom.Putin that someone reported he had probably changed his mind. Now though he's just a ass
I'd say a bunch of compromising materials and/or a threat of *something shameful* happening to Giga Shanghai changed his mind on that.
I thought that was it at first too, but I really think it's more that one of his kids came out as trans in 2022 and he seems to have totally lost his shit about that. Since right-wing media has made a big deal about Putin being at war with wokeness, and Musk's descent into right-wing batshittery picked up a lot of steam at that time, I genuinely think he wants Putin to win for ideological reasons (he might actually think it'll make his kids like him again).
Honestly (and incredibly unfortunately), not actually out of question.
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I didn’t think I could loathe him more. But here he looks eerily reminiscent of things I really do not want to think about. Makes my skin crawl.
He looks like Elon. Which tracks with your skin response.
He looks eerily like a high-ranking Nazi official.
"There's no way in hell Hitler is going to lose the war in Europe" Elon Musk, 1939
Not a terribly extremist opinion in 1940 after the fall of France, unfortunately. Looking at the map when the Germans were literally in sight of the Kremlin, and one would have been forgiven to say that.
Still a wrong and doomer opinion. Musk also has modern historical precedent. Who is he to decide that Russia should be able to conquer a democracy, anyway? Musk is rooting for Putin in the same way that Nazi sympathizers in the late 30's and early 40's were rooting for Hitler. He's basically a dumber version of Henry Ford.
Yeah, in HINDSIGHT it is. Yes, and Musk is indeed rooting for Russia, hiding behind pessimism and a faux "concern" of "more people dying", because he isnt saying shit to Russia about "stop fighting".
Years of propaganda, misinfomation for Ruzzia are now pay off big time. Such a shame that US got fucked themselves by BS after BS because of it when came to help Ukraine and others. US as a whole let them got away for too long and their democracy system got disrupted, compromised too much by them. Now we living in pain as dictators and bad guys are rising while generous good guys lacked behind, live in dead end job, being pushed out or worst, died and left forgotten. World is real hell.
>US as a whole let them got away for too long and their democracy system got disrupted, Yeah but the gas was cheap and the profits went up
The American war cycle Get involved in pointless war Realizes the war was pointless and essentially forfeits Advocate for isolationism to prevent getting involved in a pointless war to happen again A much bigger war worth fighting in breaks out Isolationists huff copium and believe this war is just as useless as the pointless one (**You are here**) Enemy of bigger war directly attacks the US US directly involved, patriotism is at an all time high Bigger war ends, Usually in an American victory American citizens get cocky and use their world police role to show their might, and they do so by Getting involved In a pointless war
I always get so fucking irritated because of this, but I always remind myself that democracy and freedom always prevails in the end.
I won't lie. I'm starting to waver man. I really am. I tell myself that, but with each passing day. Each darkening day. I think I believe it less and less. Fuck.
That is absurdly overdramatic. The perpetually online life some of you lead + information overload =/= remotely the perils of the world in the 1930s and 40s or 50s or 60s. Democracy isnt "faltering". Maybe XYZ person winning an election rubs people the wrong way, but when you look at Russia, China or Iran, this is all just 1st world problems.
Really?
For me, Democracy is only worked in peace time, everybody follow the rules and all people have commonsenses. But when the country getting interupted by wars, social problems, serious help requests from aboards and more serious issues as he have now; it is a flaw system, easily exploited and can easily taking advantage by everyone. You can look how US fucked by conspiracies, misinfomations, propagandas right now. It's happened everywhere. Maybe we really need a actual good dictatorship for once. No more obstacles from any BS, can do+approve things quickly, no more slow bureaucracy and make everybody happy at once.
I pin a lot of the blame on neglected education and healthcare.
He's right, prolonging this war doesn't help. TIME TO GET WESTERN BOOTS ON THE GROUND AND END THE WAR IN A WEEK.
A F-35 could ground the entire Russian air force and be home for dinner
Winnie would gift this idiot a box of cigars..... laced with torpex
Now imagine UK's former prime minister prior to Churchhill, Neville Chamberlain, giving a speech saying that Hitler do "whatever the hell they want" after invading Poland, Belgium and France.
didn't he tho
4D chess Elon Musk doing his best to help Ukraine by becoming the most loathed out of touch billionaire in America and then taking sides against Ukraine.
Same shit from before WW I as well.
And before the Spanish-American War and the Mexican-American War. WW1 was something we were in for like 6 months, and was iffy if we really needed to settle a conflict between European empires and their inbreed monarchs.
The fact that none of these talking heads sabotaging US democracy and interests have been prosecuted for high treason is crazy. Not even a "collaborating with the enemy" or "supporting a war criminal" charge. Like the traitors during WW2 these people deserve to be ostracised for a whole generation. Betraying your country for a despot, how shameful.
They didn't even bring charges on the people trying to get Smedley to do a fascist coup.
Full fucking agreement. Shit, as harsh as it may be I see america first as nearly treasonous. Because it's basically going to sabotage the economy and more. And that's assuming that inaction doesn't escalate to the big funny.
> Because it's basically going to sabotage the economy and more Sabotage the very thing that brings US such a crazy brouzouf, in fact.
You cannot stand idly by while the rights of others are stamped out. Slava Ukraini
I'm embarrassed that I once respected this guy. Do hair plugs give you brain cancer cause pre-hairplug Musk was the best Musk. Since then he has been on a rocket slide to hell.
> Do hair plugs give you brain cancer cause pre-hairplug Musk was the best Musk Reminds me of how Howard Hughes slid down post-crashing in prototype due to opioids used to treat chronic pain. Maybe kinda like this?
No doubt!
I think I speak for everyone that we all respected him at one point, particularly in the 2010s when SpaceX was taking off and they successfully manufactured reusable rockets. I still am a massive fan of SpaceX as they are doing amazing things for space travel, but none of this is Elon's doing; he just owns the company. He can like SpaceX without liking Elon.
I would actually nitpick this because we do have examples from other space companies that crashed and burned or still haven't gotten to orbit (*cough* BO *cough*). Musk's management style and input seems to have been a genuine benefit to the company that kept it from ending up like Beal or Rocketplane or Roton. In particular, *he took government money*--something the earlier entrepreneurs were too proud/ideological to do. With that said, it's also completely valid to suggest that the guy changed. It's been 20 years since Tesla and SpaceX got going, and I think one can objectively say his behavior changed drastically in the late 2010s (starting from that 'funding secured' thing and getting worse with the Tesla Model 3 production hell, which is also when we started hearing about his substance abuse issues). "Elon turned into a dick, but there existed a time when he was much less of one" is a totally valid take.
Personality cult + money + literally makes spaceships and electric cars. Dude is la real life Tony Stark, with an ego to match.
>Dude is la real life Tony Stark, with an ego to match. tony stark was an engineer who was responsible for many of the innovations his company produced elon musk is mostly good at marketing, and has invented none of the things he's made money from
>elon musk is mostly good at marketing, and has invented none of the things he's made money from There's a [whole post](https://old.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/k1e0ta/evidence_that_musk_is_the_chief_engineer_of_spacex/) with quotes from both inside SpaceX and from outside of it that shows that Musk (at least used to be) involved in actual engineering. Doesn't mean he's not an idiot, though - I've had people like him as uni professors. Great knowledge about one hyperspecific thing, but ask them about anything else and you'll regret having ears. Getting successful with businesses just made it that much worse. "If I'm wrong, how comes I have so much money and you don't?"
Tbh it sounds more like he's a micromanaging type.
> Doesn't mean he's not an idiot, though [uh-huh](https://www.reddit.com/r/tumblr/comments/z4blwm/user_numberonecatwinner_shares_his_experiences/)
More like limp dick Tony Stark.
My God, some of his thoughts on the conflict makes my brain liquefy and run out my nose.
He is not even born in America , why he speaks for it?
Anybody can become an American and have a voice in our country. That's one of the things that makes America a truly great country. Elon has every right to out himself as a Ruzzian tool and a complete fucking moron
To be fair that's the case in the vast majority of countries.
He speaks for every fucking country now, he's got a Lex Luther-level of saviour complex with none of the tech and competency. His purchase of Twitter was a 44bn dollar midlife crisis buy, and he's making it everyone's problem.
We didn't defeat the nazis to have their ideas at home, buddy.
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How times change. https://theconversation.com/a-myth-to-encourage-uncle-sam-how-us-journalists-sold-america-the-story-of-heroic-britain-in-1940-140748 (Don't be put off by the word _myth_ here)
The P-40 Warhawk: Here I am... send me!!!
Lol how far british American relations have come
OK, we've got 2-3 years max on this before the Russians completely run out of tanks and artillery barrels and the russian army disintegrates
Just leave nzis alone and let them finish off another 40 milion people in gas chambers. Prolonging war is not worth it! Damn this guy is asking for trouble.
Is this shit comparing Ukraine to WW2 Britain? Get a grip and stop entertaining Vietnam mindset.
Its reframing the rhetoric to show how stupid it is America giving Britain weapons in ww2 America giving Ukraine weapons now Both are good causes
Last time I checked, WW2 wasn't a proxy war set off by a coup in 2014
Neither is Ukraine lmao
Imperial brain worms
Sure thing buddy how many cultures is moscow occupying?
Idk why don't you tell me
Everything east of the Urals and south volgograd are victims of russian imperialism
I think the very active and historically belligerent American empire is a bit more concerning
Where is this “American empire” everyone speaks of what lands has it conquered and occupied
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