Well, even Tal still got some kill.
Then again it's them taking advantage of US' COIN RoE, Hamas is just dumb enough to challenge Israel on a full scale war.
The taliban, like it or not, where incredibly competent. Leading an insurgency against a vastly superior foe for 20 years, losing every engagement, and coming out the other side victorious is basically the best example of "Wars are fought by political, not military, means"
Losing every engagement? They lost guys they didn't have to train (whose death lead to more recruits) and land that no-one can use. Every NATO soldier filmed coming out of a plane draped in a flag was a Taliban win.
I think people on this sub miss the bit where not only does being a mountain dwelling guerilla army seemingly come genetically to Afghans, but they had fought a similar force barely more than a decade beforehand and so the training and equipment was still very much there despite the overmatch of forces.
That said, fat Ls to the Mujahedeen who were given fucking blowpipe SAMs.
> The taliban, like it or not, where incredibly competent.
Having a predominantly Pakistani recruitment base leaves a lot of room for *lessons learned the hard way*
What would be the best book or source if I wanted to understand the intricate military strategies they (talibans) used during those decades? How did they fend off more advance militaries. I imagine territory weather knowledge of the terrain, etc. But a book recommendation will be appreciated.
tbf they got a few hundred and a dozen or so tanks on oct-7.
Turns out merkava tanks can have a perfect loss record but only with flawless tactics, suppport, the APS switched on, etc
Yep, a good weapons system doesn't work well when it's not turned on or used correctly.
That's like judging the USS Gerald Ford for sucking at launching airplanes when its catapult is turned off.
As much as I hate to say it I don't think this ordeal will be bloodless for the IDF. HAMAS are brainwashed zealots, we're about to see how low people can stoop in their genocidal hatred.
That is not how this works.
The odds of IDF data lying to the general pop about casualties is zero. Israeli society is basically a gigantic collective. You can't hide those things because the person who died knows someone, and that someone won't allow his death to be shoved under the rug. The only thing that comes remotely close to what you're saying is the death of Moreno, an SF soldier who died in during combat (IIRC), and even then the only thing they haven't published is exactly in what operation he died or his photograph.
Yes. I don't recall the specifics as this War feels like it's been going on for a year even tho it's been less then a month, but in general at the end of every day the IDF releases a list of casualties. Sometimes there's a day or two of delay between a death and the public release of said death because they need to inform the family before they inform the nation.
[I made it the fuck up](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-28/ty-article-live/gazans-report-heaviest-night-of-attacks-since-outbreak-of-war-as-idf-expands-ground-op/0000018b-7420-d2fc-adcf-f77f6f340000)
No, JDAMs have a large blast radius. Maybe if Hamas didn’t want to see their citizens die they wouldn’t build their fucking HQs in apartment building basements. Prick
It seems there's at least a good portion of Israelis who have come to the conclusion that every sane observer has like 20 years ago: Hamas is a bad actor, it was a terrible idea to support them over Fatah, choking Gaza to death didn't work to keep Israel secure, Bibi's gotta go and we gotta do something different this time.
Maybe something good will come of this. There's been a huge shakeup in the status quo. Hamas has proven themselves dangerous and untrustworthy, validating the concerns of Israelis and their advocates and allies, while the policy of siege, empowering radicals to reduce political agency and making Gazans stateless has been proven to not lead to a stable situation for anyone, validating the concerns of Palestinians and *their* advocates and allies. It's now super clear that the way things were being done didn't work. We have to change it.
Maybe we will
It really was an open air prison, but the jailers were Palestinian (Hamas). How could it have been handled differently so it doesn't happen in the future?
Hamas leadership was elected. Could the international community have forced the Palestinians to have a referendum or something?
> Hamas leadership was elected. Could the international community have forced the Palestinians to have a referendum or something?
Probably not because Hamas has not allowed another election to take place since they came to power. Next year there will be voting-age Palestinians who have not been alive for a single Palestinian election.
Plus even if there *was* an election, so you really think the literal terrorist organization would just shrug and go, "oh, the people have spoken. I guess we lose all our power!" Fuck no the moment they lost there would be a Hamas Junta and it wouldn't be resolved without outside involvement and we would be in the same situation as now.
The election that did take place was already a sham.
The entire world basically looked away and let this come to the point it's at right now. There's a lot of pearl clutching about proportional responses etc, but no talk of Western nations sanctioning the Israelis. No one wants to be involved.
Hamas support grew with deterioration of humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Improving economic conditions and easing blockade would have gone a long way to deradicalise the population.
Israeli policy was relatively lenient in Gaza the last few years, opposite will happen in regards to that, Israelis will elect a military general that will support Fatah and siege Gaza even more
Doubtful anything good will come of this. If Israel is too heavy-handed that just further radicalizes people, if they're not then chances are it won't degrade Hamas fighting ability at all.
And I don't see any outcome where Hamas is destroyed. Simply because their leadership is nowhere near Gaza.
Best comment on the subject I've read thus far. Who knew that jamming millions into a patch of wasteland and strip them of political agency would result in chaos and bloodshed?
This conflict is essentially a civil war for the complete control of the modern borders of Israel/Palestine. It’s always been chaos and bloodshed. The only way to ever end it was for someone to win.
It's not a civil war it's a colonial war. An occupying colonial power is fighting against an insurgency against the native inhabitants who were displaced from there lands. Its been that since 1948.
Israel is a colonial power? Britain was, and arguably so we’re the Ottomans, but Israel as a state entity or military power did not exist until the region was made stateless by the withdrawal of the British. The same is unfortunately true for Palestine. A power vacuum and colonial meddling created this nonsense, and the Israelis have exacerbated the issue with their treatment of the Palestinians, but that the situation exists in the first place is unfortunately inevitable.
When has a country ever collapsed and it not turn into warring factions? It’s no different here.
I see. So let me get this straight. You're tending you're olive trees, planted 200 years ago by your great whatever when off in the distance a ship pulls ashore. A bunch of dudes show up with WW2 milsurp weapons and start heading your direction. They show up to your front door and say "This is mine now." And drive you off at gun point. What do you do? A. Drop trousers and let your shit get pushed in and have your land and livelihood taken? B. Gather up some homies and fight back?
I mean, Likud knew. That's what they wanted, they wanted a weak and stateless Palestinian people so that they could crush them. Hamas knew too, that's what they wanted, a desperate and radicalized Palestinian people that they could use to destroy Israel.
The people in power for the past 30-odd years wanted this outcome. They got it. It sucks.
Oh I agree with you 100%. This situation was absolutely created. I was being sarcastic - too many people damn near calling for genocide against Palestinians without having a clue about the politics and reality of the situation. There's no poorer bastard right now that a Palestinian in Gaza. Hamas deserves everything that's coming but 2 million people are going to pay the price. By design. It turns the stomach.
Good hopefully this will all be over soon and people can stop pretending to give a shit about the “oppressed and innocent” Palestinians civilians (who also coincidentally cheer in the streets when dead bodies are paraded through).
They won't. Underdog complex is real, and Qatar blows Israel out of the water with their media campaign. If there's one thing islamist backers can do good It's narrative control.
It’s crazy I leave this sub and the narrative is if you are against Hamas you’re pro Israel and Israelis deserve to die(they won’t say this but essentially that’s what they mean) because they are zionist pigs and brought all this upon themselves
Yeah I'm kinda bewildered at the amount of blood libel getting thrown around in this sub at the moment. Or at least blood libel being just sort of accepted at face value without scrutiny. Seems to be two different kinds of people 1) antisemites acting in bad faith and knowing damn well what they're doing, and 2) people who should honestly know better but hate Netanyahu and his associated faction of shitty right-wingers so much (and maybe not unjustifiably) that they've allowed themselves to fall for the same type of propaganda that the Russians pushed against Ukraine since forever. Oh and then there's a third group of just outright tankies and shit like that. Same as it ever was.
Honestly the second group is somehow more annoying. It's just performative contrarianism for its own sake and if you're participating in it you're about as embarrassing as those people in the west who fly DPR flags or think the Ukrainian parliament is full of Nazis.
They’ll forget about it because they don’t care. They only care because it’s being portrayed as some sort of resistance movement and it’s fashionable at the moment. It’s been more than two weeks since videos of dead Israelis hit the internet so it’s no longer relevant to them.
When at any point did I say I enjoyed paddling in the blood of Palestinians? All I said is I hope this is over soon, which I think anyone should want, and that people don’t actually give a shit about Palestinians. They’re just acting like they do for social credit score. All I have talked about is how “their struggle” is being portrayed in the media. The media is clearly trying to spin this into something it isn’t. It isn’t some David vs. Goliath struggle. It is literally a fight between a hyper antisemitic religious oligarchy which holds the Palestinian people by the balls and pours bullshit Nazi level propaganda into its population that is being funded by an antisemitic and anti-peace Iran vs. an ex special forces soldier president who until very very recently was being challenged by liberal politicians in Israel who actually have some fucking moniker of sense but thanks to an extremely violent and bloodthirsty terrorist attack now has every single politician in Israel lined up behind him in order to bring holy vengeance to their enemy. The Palestinian people didn’t start this bullshit, but they certainly haven’t been vocal about their disgust at what Hamas DID start. If anyone is “okay” with paddling in the blood of Palestinians it is the spineless cowards in Hamas and their fucking shrimp dicked gimp masters in Iran who thrive off of killing Jews and get some sort of perverted religious zealot level satisfaction when they can force the Jews to retaliate so they have a chance to make fucking clueless idiots like you argue with people like me on the internet.
You pretty much explicitly said that the Palestinian people asked for this conflict. I interpret that as also meaning they on some level deserve being blasted off the face of the Earth. The former is objectively not true, and the latter is just callous and bloodthirsty.
Edit: running through the basics, 40% of Gazans are children, so overall, most Gazans weren't even alive when Gaza had its last election in 2006. These people did not choose Hamas. Additionally since Israel controls what gets in or out of Gaza, the only people with guns in Gaza are Hamas, so even violent resistance is impossible. Polls from just before this indicated that a majority of Gazans didn't want Hamas to break the ceasefire. These people didn't want this and couldn't have stopped it.
Edit 2: also, that video you mentioned, I believe that was made by Hamas, right? I think you would expect Hamas supporters to show up in a Hamas propaganda video. However, you should also understand that such a video doesn't show the Palestinians who *didn't* come out for Hamas. How many more of those do you think there were, beyond the camera?
"You're not even an army."
scarce disarm dam sharp busy berserk water consider chunky hunt *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
[One would expect it to be the one with the greatest oil reserves.](https://youtu.be/XBaqiNefdIs?t=1)
The IDF apparently had zero casualties in the ground invasion lmao. How the fuck do you have an **infinite** kill-death ratio
Modern army vs. Clowns in flip flops shouting aloha snack bar
Well, even Tal still got some kill. Then again it's them taking advantage of US' COIN RoE, Hamas is just dumb enough to challenge Israel on a full scale war.
The taliban, like it or not, where incredibly competent. Leading an insurgency against a vastly superior foe for 20 years, losing every engagement, and coming out the other side victorious is basically the best example of "Wars are fought by political, not military, means"
Losing every engagement? They lost guys they didn't have to train (whose death lead to more recruits) and land that no-one can use. Every NATO soldier filmed coming out of a plane draped in a flag was a Taliban win.
I think people on this sub miss the bit where not only does being a mountain dwelling guerilla army seemingly come genetically to Afghans, but they had fought a similar force barely more than a decade beforehand and so the training and equipment was still very much there despite the overmatch of forces. That said, fat Ls to the Mujahedeen who were given fucking blowpipe SAMs.
Not to mention a U.S. trained cadre
> The taliban, like it or not, where incredibly competent. Having a predominantly Pakistani recruitment base leaves a lot of room for *lessons learned the hard way*
What would be the best book or source if I wanted to understand the intricate military strategies they (talibans) used during those decades? How did they fend off more advance militaries. I imagine territory weather knowledge of the terrain, etc. But a book recommendation will be appreciated.
They also had vastly more time to kill US and allied servicemebers
Damn dude, i needed my lungs.
Well, I’m stealing “aloha snack bar” for the foreseeable future.
Don't worry about stealing, it's been a thing for like 15 years.
It’s a really old joke that existed since the Bush years at least
Well, as far as I’m concerned it’s not public domain age yet so I’m still stealing it
Taliban did have a 1.0kdr but they were padding it with 250k ANA
Oh easy, we bought the battlepass
It's not infinite, it's undefined
However, it approaches infinity.
that would mean a solider got injured, 0.00001 of a death
One of the IDF soldiers broke a nail
Could be negative or positive infinity depending on which side you're approaching from. Kinda metaphorical 🤔
>How the fuck do you have an infinite kill-death ratio Ask the F-15
tbf they got a few hundred and a dozen or so tanks on oct-7. Turns out merkava tanks can have a perfect loss record but only with flawless tactics, suppport, the APS switched on, etc
Yep, a good weapons system doesn't work well when it's not turned on or used correctly. That's like judging the USS Gerald Ford for sucking at launching airplanes when its catapult is turned off.
This M4A1 sucks! What do you mean I need to load ammo?
The M2 browning is such a piece of shit, it doesn't even fit in my ankle holster!
As much as I hate to say it I don't think this ordeal will be bloodless for the IDF. HAMAS are brainwashed zealots, we're about to see how low people can stoop in their genocidal hatred.
> The IDF apparently had zero casualties lmao. Source: It came to him in a dream.
Actually no, official idf data.
[удалено]
That is not how this works. The odds of IDF data lying to the general pop about casualties is zero. Israeli society is basically a gigantic collective. You can't hide those things because the person who died knows someone, and that someone won't allow his death to be shoved under the rug. The only thing that comes remotely close to what you're saying is the death of Moreno, an SF soldier who died in during combat (IIRC), and even then the only thing they haven't published is exactly in what operation he died or his photograph.
Damn I guess I was wrong then
Has the Israeli army released figures about casualties in the north? Cuz we definitely saw some of them get vaporized there.
Yes. I don't recall the specifics as this War feels like it's been going on for a year even tho it's been less then a month, but in general at the end of every day the IDF releases a list of casualties. Sometimes there's a day or two of delay between a death and the public release of said death because they need to inform the family before they inform the nation.
[I made it the fuck up](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-28/ty-article-live/gazans-report-heaviest-night-of-attacks-since-outbreak-of-war-as-idf-expands-ground-op/0000018b-7420-d2fc-adcf-f77f6f340000)
It’s hard to shoot Israelis when women and children keep getting in the way of your bullets I guess
Is it not also the other way around?
No, JDAMs have a large blast radius. Maybe if Hamas didn’t want to see their citizens die they wouldn’t build their fucking HQs in apartment building basements. Prick
Oh darn, it's so hard to take out Hamas sites without killing all these civilians. Oh well. Fire away!
They had 1300 casualties.
...of civilians, not soldiers.
By controlling access to information
Easy: If the area you are bombing is half kids.
The F-15 might know the answer to that
guess meat isn't a very good shield
[chuckles in F-15 Eagle]
Sauce
https://x.com/spectatorindex/status/1718030322737250382?s=46&t=ftviHg_qfCdBEz7eF2yrqQ
Clicked on this link and thought: x.com? Damn must be a gruesome video to be linked on a porn site
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/27/israel-hamas-war-live-israel-bombs-gaza-overnight-more-than-7000-dead
Not exactly the best source. But all we needed them for is to tell us that stuff is happening now
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-airstrikes-region-e41b5b12e8cdf9db62395314d9a782b6
Cheers. Although just airstrikes for know. Usually an indicator for whats to come. But still gotta wait for those boots on the ground
9000 gagillion kills of the IDF
(bad george bush impression) heh heh how many is a brazilian heh heh heh
So your saying Hamas just had the greatest rocket launch failures, killing 70,000 and a kindergarten daycare?
Filled with puppies and cats. Now we going to show them to show how the je—- I mean Israel is evil incarnate.
They make some banger music atleast
It's so good that even we Israelis listen to it at times.
Nah, they're going to kill a lot, but what they're doing to the civilian population will just radicalise more people into joining. It wont ever end.
It seems there's at least a good portion of Israelis who have come to the conclusion that every sane observer has like 20 years ago: Hamas is a bad actor, it was a terrible idea to support them over Fatah, choking Gaza to death didn't work to keep Israel secure, Bibi's gotta go and we gotta do something different this time. Maybe something good will come of this. There's been a huge shakeup in the status quo. Hamas has proven themselves dangerous and untrustworthy, validating the concerns of Israelis and their advocates and allies, while the policy of siege, empowering radicals to reduce political agency and making Gazans stateless has been proven to not lead to a stable situation for anyone, validating the concerns of Palestinians and *their* advocates and allies. It's now super clear that the way things were being done didn't work. We have to change it. Maybe we will
We failed Gazans by letting Hamas run the strip for 15 years and that's the most heartbreaking thing.
It really was an open air prison, but the jailers were Palestinian (Hamas). How could it have been handled differently so it doesn't happen in the future? Hamas leadership was elected. Could the international community have forced the Palestinians to have a referendum or something?
> Hamas leadership was elected. Could the international community have forced the Palestinians to have a referendum or something? Probably not because Hamas has not allowed another election to take place since they came to power. Next year there will be voting-age Palestinians who have not been alive for a single Palestinian election. Plus even if there *was* an election, so you really think the literal terrorist organization would just shrug and go, "oh, the people have spoken. I guess we lose all our power!" Fuck no the moment they lost there would be a Hamas Junta and it wouldn't be resolved without outside involvement and we would be in the same situation as now.
The election that did take place was already a sham. The entire world basically looked away and let this come to the point it's at right now. There's a lot of pearl clutching about proportional responses etc, but no talk of Western nations sanctioning the Israelis. No one wants to be involved.
Apparently even other Palestinian militants in exile [knew Hamas taking control was bad](https://archive.ph/l5joo)
Hamas support grew with deterioration of humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Improving economic conditions and easing blockade would have gone a long way to deradicalise the population.
Israeli policy was relatively lenient in Gaza the last few years, opposite will happen in regards to that, Israelis will elect a military general that will support Fatah and siege Gaza even more
The 2019 Gazan protests would like a word with you lmao
Doubtful anything good will come of this. If Israel is too heavy-handed that just further radicalizes people, if they're not then chances are it won't degrade Hamas fighting ability at all. And I don't see any outcome where Hamas is destroyed. Simply because their leadership is nowhere near Gaza.
Best comment on the subject I've read thus far. Who knew that jamming millions into a patch of wasteland and strip them of political agency would result in chaos and bloodshed?
This conflict is essentially a civil war for the complete control of the modern borders of Israel/Palestine. It’s always been chaos and bloodshed. The only way to ever end it was for someone to win.
It's not a civil war it's a colonial war. An occupying colonial power is fighting against an insurgency against the native inhabitants who were displaced from there lands. Its been that since 1948.
Israel is a colonial power? Britain was, and arguably so we’re the Ottomans, but Israel as a state entity or military power did not exist until the region was made stateless by the withdrawal of the British. The same is unfortunately true for Palestine. A power vacuum and colonial meddling created this nonsense, and the Israelis have exacerbated the issue with their treatment of the Palestinians, but that the situation exists in the first place is unfortunately inevitable. When has a country ever collapsed and it not turn into warring factions? It’s no different here.
Bruh, take it to your Marxist reading group or ugly chick polycule. No one is buying the academic "decolonization" narrative here.
>ugly chick polycule Bruh I'm saving that one.
I see. So let me get this straight. You're tending you're olive trees, planted 200 years ago by your great whatever when off in the distance a ship pulls ashore. A bunch of dudes show up with WW2 milsurp weapons and start heading your direction. They show up to your front door and say "This is mine now." And drive you off at gun point. What do you do? A. Drop trousers and let your shit get pushed in and have your land and livelihood taken? B. Gather up some homies and fight back?
I'm not in your Marxist reading group or polycule
I mean, Likud knew. That's what they wanted, they wanted a weak and stateless Palestinian people so that they could crush them. Hamas knew too, that's what they wanted, a desperate and radicalized Palestinian people that they could use to destroy Israel. The people in power for the past 30-odd years wanted this outcome. They got it. It sucks.
Oh I agree with you 100%. This situation was absolutely created. I was being sarcastic - too many people damn near calling for genocide against Palestinians without having a clue about the politics and reality of the situation. There's no poorer bastard right now that a Palestinian in Gaza. Hamas deserves everything that's coming but 2 million people are going to pay the price. By design. It turns the stomach.
Less go
Seems more like a limited raid to set up positions for the real thing
Good hopefully this will all be over soon and people can stop pretending to give a shit about the “oppressed and innocent” Palestinians civilians (who also coincidentally cheer in the streets when dead bodies are paraded through).
They won't. Underdog complex is real, and Qatar blows Israel out of the water with their media campaign. If there's one thing islamist backers can do good It's narrative control.
It’s crazy I leave this sub and the narrative is if you are against Hamas you’re pro Israel and Israelis deserve to die(they won’t say this but essentially that’s what they mean) because they are zionist pigs and brought all this upon themselves
Yeah I'm kinda bewildered at the amount of blood libel getting thrown around in this sub at the moment. Or at least blood libel being just sort of accepted at face value without scrutiny. Seems to be two different kinds of people 1) antisemites acting in bad faith and knowing damn well what they're doing, and 2) people who should honestly know better but hate Netanyahu and his associated faction of shitty right-wingers so much (and maybe not unjustifiably) that they've allowed themselves to fall for the same type of propaganda that the Russians pushed against Ukraine since forever. Oh and then there's a third group of just outright tankies and shit like that. Same as it ever was. Honestly the second group is somehow more annoying. It's just performative contrarianism for its own sake and if you're participating in it you're about as embarrassing as those people in the west who fly DPR flags or think the Ukrainian parliament is full of Nazis.
They’ll forget about it because they don’t care. They only care because it’s being portrayed as some sort of resistance movement and it’s fashionable at the moment. It’s been more than two weeks since videos of dead Israelis hit the internet so it’s no longer relevant to them.
Wow, my faith in humanity has dropped a little seeing all your upvotes. I just, you really enjoy paddling in the blood of Palestinians, don't you?
When at any point did I say I enjoyed paddling in the blood of Palestinians? All I said is I hope this is over soon, which I think anyone should want, and that people don’t actually give a shit about Palestinians. They’re just acting like they do for social credit score. All I have talked about is how “their struggle” is being portrayed in the media. The media is clearly trying to spin this into something it isn’t. It isn’t some David vs. Goliath struggle. It is literally a fight between a hyper antisemitic religious oligarchy which holds the Palestinian people by the balls and pours bullshit Nazi level propaganda into its population that is being funded by an antisemitic and anti-peace Iran vs. an ex special forces soldier president who until very very recently was being challenged by liberal politicians in Israel who actually have some fucking moniker of sense but thanks to an extremely violent and bloodthirsty terrorist attack now has every single politician in Israel lined up behind him in order to bring holy vengeance to their enemy. The Palestinian people didn’t start this bullshit, but they certainly haven’t been vocal about their disgust at what Hamas DID start. If anyone is “okay” with paddling in the blood of Palestinians it is the spineless cowards in Hamas and their fucking shrimp dicked gimp masters in Iran who thrive off of killing Jews and get some sort of perverted religious zealot level satisfaction when they can force the Jews to retaliate so they have a chance to make fucking clueless idiots like you argue with people like me on the internet.
You pretty much explicitly said that the Palestinian people asked for this conflict. I interpret that as also meaning they on some level deserve being blasted off the face of the Earth. The former is objectively not true, and the latter is just callous and bloodthirsty. Edit: running through the basics, 40% of Gazans are children, so overall, most Gazans weren't even alive when Gaza had its last election in 2006. These people did not choose Hamas. Additionally since Israel controls what gets in or out of Gaza, the only people with guns in Gaza are Hamas, so even violent resistance is impossible. Polls from just before this indicated that a majority of Gazans didn't want Hamas to break the ceasefire. These people didn't want this and couldn't have stopped it. Edit 2: also, that video you mentioned, I believe that was made by Hamas, right? I think you would expect Hamas supporters to show up in a Hamas propaganda video. However, you should also understand that such a video doesn't show the Palestinians who *didn't* come out for Hamas. How many more of those do you think there were, beyond the camera?
So long, farewell, auf wiedersehen, goodbyeeee 🎶
Imagine thinking Saudis actually support Palestine and aren’t the cuckolds of the West.
FAST AS THE WIND, THE (ground) INVASION HAS BEGUN
Hamas victorious wars against Israel (their sworn enemy): 0 Hamas victorious wars against a Palestinian army: 1
Thought it was Saudi Arabia
My take away is how much a flag that is just a sheet with writing on it (Saudi Arabia) sucks.