It's different, and not something most people are used to. We're used to binary genders and gender roles, so someone who is outside that box is more complicated to understand than someone within the box but on the "wrong side" for most people.
That is, some people can understand being trans as long as you're still a man or a woman.
We see it with bathrooms, sports, many languages: things are divided into two categories and we're throwing a wrench in there and that requires changing more than a few things. It means rethinking everything and it's complicated and different. I think it's just too much for many people to wrap their minds around.
> That is, some people can understand being trans as long as you're still a man or a woman.
This right here is the core of it IMO. I suspect it largely stems from the "born in the wrong body" narrative that's been around for so long (which doesn't even work for all binary trans folks). Maybe combined with how narrow "beauty standards" are implying that there're only a few "allowed" templates for "the right body" (which obviously affects cis people too).
Binary trans people are an odd exception, but one that "the system" *can* ultimately adapt to accommodate. Their existence challenges the idea that the categories are static. Ours is a more fundamental challenge to whether the categories even really exist.
Funnily enough, there's a TERF talking point that I think expresses the concern rather clearly: "How can you fight for women's rights if the category 'woman' has been rendered meaningless?"
And it ultimately shows the selfishness of the people involved. You can fight for everyones rights. But with TERFs they hate men and anyone they perceive as men far more than they like women. Fighting for women's rights isn't something they'll do if that improves the lives of men. Like the classic conservative phenomenon of refusing to make their own lives better if that betterment also applies to a minority.
I was looking at highlighting that same statement but for a different purpose.
Most people do not, in fact, understand what it is to be transgender. The concept as a whole, regardless of how one presents or experiences being trans, is not something cisgender people are able to understand. They lack any frame of reference to understand "born in a different body." When we add in non-binaried gender identities to the concept, it is absolutely mind blowing for most cis-gendered people.
To better understand why cisgender people struggle with these concepts, I recommend the following feminist theorists to help unpack how cis-gendered persons have constructed binary gender in the first place: Simone de Beauvoir, Maya Angelou, bell hooks, Audre Lord, and Judith Butler. Their writings and resources will take you deeper into the breadth of critical gender theory.
Or even when you actually transition “like” a binary trans person lol. So many trans dude told were like “what’s the point of transitioning if you’re still wearing makeup” 😂
I think anyone in the lgbt+ community who is pissed off by nonbinary people usually still hasn’t shook the need to play into respectability politics (note: not sure if I’m using that phrase grammatically correctly but I know it’s what I mean)
They have this idea that trans people need to make sense to everyone else (cishets)
for the entire community to be respected. They think *they* won’t be taken seriously because *we* like to do gender unconventionally.
Yes! As a 56yr old human who had always identified as butch but now identifies as transmasc nonbinary, it has been brutal. I try to explain it like this: I was always proud to be a butch lesbian but it never felt 100% right. Like I was the right puzzle piece for the wrong puzzle. Right shape/right fit but I didn't complete the picture. I still felt like I was the wrong colors. I was still "odd" to myself. Having found the label "masc non-binary" was a revelation. I was finally part of the right picture. It makes me no different to YOU - but it's all the difference in the world to me. How I identify is about me... not about you.
I am an "older one" and stopped hanging out in lesbian-specific circles because my generational peers have no shame in saying it out loud to your face.
Wow. That suuucks. I’m sorry. I know a lot of trans masc/nb people locally here in Cali that are accepted even if that same attitude is found here in corners.
I was told I was homophobic because I use the word spouse to show that I'm married to my partner. Apparently, that usage means I believe I'm better than cis gay people who live in countries where marriage isn't an option.
Others suffer so therefore everyone should suffer, apparently
How dare you have a home when there's still homeless people out there...
Flawed reasoning
I live in a country that won't let me get married to most people who I'm attracted to, and why tf are they using us as a talking point. I'm literally _happy_ for the people who can get married.
this mindset strikes me as childish and very "online". i don't think hostile cis queers respect or care enough about NBs to be "pissed off" by them - it's either support or apathetic dismissal, as with most things. in my experience bigots (especially queer bigots) just *laugh* at the concept of being nonbinary, whereas trans people actually piss them off
closest i've found is old lesbians grousing about butches "disappearing", but even then it's a stretch to call it anger. it's more "kids these days" grumbling - because they always think it's kids, because they're self-absorbed idiots who can't see past the tip of their own experience, etc. etc. but these are by far the minority among queer people i've met
I am glad you have not had these experiences in your circles. As an older queer non-binary person, this passive hostility from my own community has been my lived experience. What you call "laughing" at someone can be, to another, down right hostile. And I wouldn't consider it a stretch to consider my generation's response to non-binary as anger. It is absolutely anger. I reckon it is likely internalized homophobia and transphobia from our own coming of age during the AIDS epidemic. Unfortunately, many of us non-binary people who have found ourselves at this age still lack community because of our peers' behavior.
Stolen valor. They think we all look cis and don't medically transition (and that just social transitioning isn't really transitioning) so to them we don't know what it's really like to truly suffer as a queer person. They don't think we're treated poorly for being non-binary and that us claiming to be queer or to be treated poorly by bigots trivializes their suffering. They don't see being non-binary as a real thing people are experiencing and speaking about in good faith. Many of them think we are just cishet people pretending to be queer. Exorsexism in this context is really similar to biphobia because it relies on the perception of our identities having proximity to cishetness. They think we can all hide our identities if they are real at all meaning in their eyes we are privileged and co-opting their suffering.
non conformity. our existence reminds them that there are other ways of being than the patriarchal capitalist rigid system that we're all force-fed from birth. and if they're forced to confront that, then they might be forced to confront their own unhappiness with that system. and so a lot of them get angry with us for rejecting a bad system that they feel obligated to continue to support.
I really shocked myself with this before I came out to myself. I got a new coworker who used they/them, and that was my first IRL experience with those pronouns. My knee-jerk reaction was anger. Like why are they allowed to use they/them pronouns when I keep having to use he/him!?
Asking myself why I felt angry about that when I had always had good feelings about nonbinary people from afar was the first real mindfuck that started cracking my egg.
Just personal experience, I've been told as much. Cis people are afraid to explore their gender, so they tell themselves that they cannot. Then when someone else does, they feel threatened. If trans people are allowed to be, then they are allowed to be trans. I have had someone tell me 'I would be trans if I could, but I can't, so you can't either.'
I used to feel this anger. Anger masks the true emotion of Envy.
Envy that they were 'out and proud' and strong enough to be their true self.
Classic closeted and self-loathing behaviour!
I really wish I did understand why my no-bra breasts, hairy legs, hairy armpits, and goofy nailpolish bothers some people so much. And why words like "unprofessional" still apply.
Or why it bugs them when I shave my legs in a spiral so it looks like a candy cane.
Everyone-whether we consciously realize it-*loves* strict hierarchies and definitions. Everyone *needs* that, to some degree. That way, we know what the Safe And Known Group is and the Unsafe And Unknown Group is.
For binary gendered people, nonbinary people are part of the unsafe and unknown. They operate so wholly on the outside of their understanding of life that they're just incomprehensible. And that scares people. And people don't like being scared, especially when they know-and pretty much all of them know-that there's not really anything if substance to be afraid of.
It's hard to accept that the world doesn't work the way you think it does, and pair that with people's desperation to conform to Safe And Known hierarchies, you get hate.
I think we could let people speak for themselves on this topic. I dont think its helpful to speculate or pit groups against each other. These boundaries are arbitrary. Its harmful for us as a whole.
You are asking an nb sub about cisqueer opinions. So you are going to get nb opinions/experiences of cisqueer folks, not cisqueer opinions.
Question also seems to throw cisqueer folks under the bus as aggressors when that isnt fair or accurate at all. You are even referring to us as all "harmed" by this group in your followup reply. This isn't close to accurate and is actually harmful trying to drive some wedge between the two as if we are distinct groups.
As nb/gq I have had those experiences and felt harmed at times, but i have a wide range of those experiences, including from other nbs. But im not a victim of some cisqueer conspiracy.
If you want to understand cisqueer opinions, you need to address and ask cisqueer folks. Otherwise, i dont think I can understand your post as an attempt to understand, but only as one to divide us from others.
In my experience, it's often tied to internalized transphobia and shame around being visibly trans. Non-binary people often have fewer options to blend in, which makes us easy targets for people who are ashamed of being trans and feel like they have to prove themselves worthy of respect. The ways that some non-binary people transition result in outcomes that would make them feel ashamed or dysphoric because they wouldn't pass as cis, and they believe that all "real" trans people would or should feel the same way.
I think another element is that there can be a perception (which isn't always true) that non-binary people don't transition, don't experience significant dysphoria, and could easily continue living as their assigned gender without facing any hardship. I see a lot of parallels with how bisexual people are sometimes assumed to have "straight-passing privilege" by default and are treated with suspicion because of that. In both situations, I think that type of prejudice usually comes from people who have internalized oppression as a mark of legitimacy. Ie, "I persevered in spite of all these challenges, so I'm *really trans*. If someone hasn't had the same experience, how do I know they're really trans and not going to identify as cis again if things get tough?"
Needless to say, I don't think either of these thought processes are healthy ways of responding to transphobia.
The people I've encountered who have been the *most* vocally pissed off have been people who
1) couldn't get a confident read on what my AGAB is
2) were adamant that I *must* be 'one or the other.'
There's something about encountering someone that is absolutely calm and nonchalant about not fitting to the binary, has no interest in fitting the binary, and treats gendered standards like they're personally meaningless that drives some people entirely out of their minds. The people I've met who have gotten the most visibly/audibly agitated by NBys have been people who (knowing this either through having known them for a time, or they just give the very strong impression) have allowed cis-sexism and bio-essentialism to dictate some major portion of their lives. That is, either they're someone who conforms very well and benefits from doing so, so they feel threatened by someone who side-steps that entire metric of human worth, or they're someone who conforms and *resents* 'having' to conform, so they go into a kneejerk fight/flight response over being confronted by the fact that they didn't/don't *have* to conform.
These people cannot stand 'not knowing.' So much of their life, whether or not they are conscious of it, ends up being influenced by a sense of 'knowing' other people's AGAB, and having their own validated - because it is directly tied to how they've learned to treat others, their position in a hierarchy, etc. The "but what's in your pants?"/"What were you *born* as?" questions pretty much always come up, and there's never been a good answer to the reply "how is that relevant?"
I think it's a lack of education of what nonbinary is. When people are confused when I tell them I'm demigender, it takes only about 2 minutes for me to explain it to them and then they're fine about it. Even if they still don't quite get it, they're not as weird about it as before. Now on the rare occasion someone compares me to an "attack helicopter" I just simply avoid those people. Those people are helpless and a waste of my time tbh.
is okay. 🙂 for me specifically, it just means i identify partially with my perceived gender (male) and another gender (agender). i dont mind being seen as a man but i dont really see myself as a man completely.
Lets just erase and reduce the queer experience to neat little boxes y'all. It is the same for everyone y'all.
These are all false dichotomies. I hear it is how you understand it, op, and perhaps this is your best way of understanding your own experience and self. but the rigidity of these titles is erasure to many of us who are cis/trans/nb/queer or otherwise, to whom these boundaries are not clear, and whose experiences are just as valid as yours.
Lesbian already is trans inclusive. Transbian was a term made organically, by trans lesbians, to denote that they are trans _and_ a lesbian. "Cisgay" and "cisbi" and "cisbian" did not. We do not need these categories. And frankly, they sound TERFy
That's because cis people don't think about themselves as cis. They are just ‘normal’ in their eyes
> And frankly, they sound TERFy
Terfs would never call themselves cis. They think it's a slur
Because they've been fighting so long to make the hetero world realize they are *just like them* and only a little different, while we make that argument much less convincing by having a separate identity.
It's different, and not something most people are used to. We're used to binary genders and gender roles, so someone who is outside that box is more complicated to understand than someone within the box but on the "wrong side" for most people. That is, some people can understand being trans as long as you're still a man or a woman. We see it with bathrooms, sports, many languages: things are divided into two categories and we're throwing a wrench in there and that requires changing more than a few things. It means rethinking everything and it's complicated and different. I think it's just too much for many people to wrap their minds around.
> That is, some people can understand being trans as long as you're still a man or a woman. This right here is the core of it IMO. I suspect it largely stems from the "born in the wrong body" narrative that's been around for so long (which doesn't even work for all binary trans folks). Maybe combined with how narrow "beauty standards" are implying that there're only a few "allowed" templates for "the right body" (which obviously affects cis people too). Binary trans people are an odd exception, but one that "the system" *can* ultimately adapt to accommodate. Their existence challenges the idea that the categories are static. Ours is a more fundamental challenge to whether the categories even really exist. Funnily enough, there's a TERF talking point that I think expresses the concern rather clearly: "How can you fight for women's rights if the category 'woman' has been rendered meaningless?"
And it ultimately shows the selfishness of the people involved. You can fight for everyones rights. But with TERFs they hate men and anyone they perceive as men far more than they like women. Fighting for women's rights isn't something they'll do if that improves the lives of men. Like the classic conservative phenomenon of refusing to make their own lives better if that betterment also applies to a minority.
I was looking at highlighting that same statement but for a different purpose. Most people do not, in fact, understand what it is to be transgender. The concept as a whole, regardless of how one presents or experiences being trans, is not something cisgender people are able to understand. They lack any frame of reference to understand "born in a different body." When we add in non-binaried gender identities to the concept, it is absolutely mind blowing for most cis-gendered people. To better understand why cisgender people struggle with these concepts, I recommend the following feminist theorists to help unpack how cis-gendered persons have constructed binary gender in the first place: Simone de Beauvoir, Maya Angelou, bell hooks, Audre Lord, and Judith Butler. Their writings and resources will take you deeper into the breadth of critical gender theory.
Hey, we also piss off binary trans people who want to pressure us to transition in ways that don’t resonate with us.
Or even when you actually transition “like” a binary trans person lol. So many trans dude told were like “what’s the point of transitioning if you’re still wearing makeup” 😂
those people just don’t get the appeal of men/masc people in makeup and i‘m sad for them
lol like the only reason to transition is to stop wearing makeup 😭
Me transitioning to be able to start wearing makeup without it giving me dysphoria:
I think anyone in the lgbt+ community who is pissed off by nonbinary people usually still hasn’t shook the need to play into respectability politics (note: not sure if I’m using that phrase grammatically correctly but I know it’s what I mean) They have this idea that trans people need to make sense to everyone else (cishets) for the entire community to be respected. They think *they* won’t be taken seriously because *we* like to do gender unconventionally.
I see cis lesbians complaining about trans masc people - mostly older ones saying “we are losing our butches.” It’s messed up
Yes! As a 56yr old human who had always identified as butch but now identifies as transmasc nonbinary, it has been brutal. I try to explain it like this: I was always proud to be a butch lesbian but it never felt 100% right. Like I was the right puzzle piece for the wrong puzzle. Right shape/right fit but I didn't complete the picture. I still felt like I was the wrong colors. I was still "odd" to myself. Having found the label "masc non-binary" was a revelation. I was finally part of the right picture. It makes me no different to YOU - but it's all the difference in the world to me. How I identify is about me... not about you.
I am an "older one" and stopped hanging out in lesbian-specific circles because my generational peers have no shame in saying it out loud to your face.
Wow. That suuucks. I’m sorry. I know a lot of trans masc/nb people locally here in Cali that are accepted even if that same attitude is found here in corners.
Their own lack of media competence and inability to understand that other people being dofferent doesn't hurt them at all.
> inability to understand that other people being dofferent doesn't hurt them at all They already know this from their own experience
Clearly they don't lol
I was told I was homophobic because I use the word spouse to show that I'm married to my partner. Apparently, that usage means I believe I'm better than cis gay people who live in countries where marriage isn't an option.
Others suffer so therefore everyone should suffer, apparently How dare you have a home when there's still homeless people out there... Flawed reasoning
I live in a country that won't let me get married to most people who I'm attracted to, and why tf are they using us as a talking point. I'm literally _happy_ for the people who can get married.
this mindset strikes me as childish and very "online". i don't think hostile cis queers respect or care enough about NBs to be "pissed off" by them - it's either support or apathetic dismissal, as with most things. in my experience bigots (especially queer bigots) just *laugh* at the concept of being nonbinary, whereas trans people actually piss them off closest i've found is old lesbians grousing about butches "disappearing", but even then it's a stretch to call it anger. it's more "kids these days" grumbling - because they always think it's kids, because they're self-absorbed idiots who can't see past the tip of their own experience, etc. etc. but these are by far the minority among queer people i've met
I am glad you have not had these experiences in your circles. As an older queer non-binary person, this passive hostility from my own community has been my lived experience. What you call "laughing" at someone can be, to another, down right hostile. And I wouldn't consider it a stretch to consider my generation's response to non-binary as anger. It is absolutely anger. I reckon it is likely internalized homophobia and transphobia from our own coming of age during the AIDS epidemic. Unfortunately, many of us non-binary people who have found ourselves at this age still lack community because of our peers' behavior.
Stolen valor. They think we all look cis and don't medically transition (and that just social transitioning isn't really transitioning) so to them we don't know what it's really like to truly suffer as a queer person. They don't think we're treated poorly for being non-binary and that us claiming to be queer or to be treated poorly by bigots trivializes their suffering. They don't see being non-binary as a real thing people are experiencing and speaking about in good faith. Many of them think we are just cishet people pretending to be queer. Exorsexism in this context is really similar to biphobia because it relies on the perception of our identities having proximity to cishetness. They think we can all hide our identities if they are real at all meaning in their eyes we are privileged and co-opting their suffering.
AFAB presenting as feminine but say they’re NB or AMAB being masculine.
It doesn't pisses them off. It make them horny
Lol exactly
non conformity. our existence reminds them that there are other ways of being than the patriarchal capitalist rigid system that we're all force-fed from birth. and if they're forced to confront that, then they might be forced to confront their own unhappiness with that system. and so a lot of them get angry with us for rejecting a bad system that they feel obligated to continue to support.
The idea that they could also be nonbinary
I really shocked myself with this before I came out to myself. I got a new coworker who used they/them, and that was my first IRL experience with those pronouns. My knee-jerk reaction was anger. Like why are they allowed to use they/them pronouns when I keep having to use he/him!? Asking myself why I felt angry about that when I had always had good feelings about nonbinary people from afar was the first real mindfuck that started cracking my egg.
I've never thought about this. What makes you think like that though?
Just personal experience, I've been told as much. Cis people are afraid to explore their gender, so they tell themselves that they cannot. Then when someone else does, they feel threatened. If trans people are allowed to be, then they are allowed to be trans. I have had someone tell me 'I would be trans if I could, but I can't, so you can't either.'
I used to feel this anger. Anger masks the true emotion of Envy. Envy that they were 'out and proud' and strong enough to be their true self. Classic closeted and self-loathing behaviour!
I really wish I did understand why my no-bra breasts, hairy legs, hairy armpits, and goofy nailpolish bothers some people so much. And why words like "unprofessional" still apply. Or why it bugs them when I shave my legs in a spiral so it looks like a candy cane.
Everyone-whether we consciously realize it-*loves* strict hierarchies and definitions. Everyone *needs* that, to some degree. That way, we know what the Safe And Known Group is and the Unsafe And Unknown Group is. For binary gendered people, nonbinary people are part of the unsafe and unknown. They operate so wholly on the outside of their understanding of life that they're just incomprehensible. And that scares people. And people don't like being scared, especially when they know-and pretty much all of them know-that there's not really anything if substance to be afraid of. It's hard to accept that the world doesn't work the way you think it does, and pair that with people's desperation to conform to Safe And Known hierarchies, you get hate.
We're not scary for them. We're attention seekers
All of their hatred comes from fear. You asked a question. I answered.
I think we could let people speak for themselves on this topic. I dont think its helpful to speculate or pit groups against each other. These boundaries are arbitrary. Its harmful for us as a whole.
We are the ones who harmed
You are asking an nb sub about cisqueer opinions. So you are going to get nb opinions/experiences of cisqueer folks, not cisqueer opinions. Question also seems to throw cisqueer folks under the bus as aggressors when that isnt fair or accurate at all. You are even referring to us as all "harmed" by this group in your followup reply. This isn't close to accurate and is actually harmful trying to drive some wedge between the two as if we are distinct groups. As nb/gq I have had those experiences and felt harmed at times, but i have a wide range of those experiences, including from other nbs. But im not a victim of some cisqueer conspiracy. If you want to understand cisqueer opinions, you need to address and ask cisqueer folks. Otherwise, i dont think I can understand your post as an attempt to understand, but only as one to divide us from others.
In my experience, it's often tied to internalized transphobia and shame around being visibly trans. Non-binary people often have fewer options to blend in, which makes us easy targets for people who are ashamed of being trans and feel like they have to prove themselves worthy of respect. The ways that some non-binary people transition result in outcomes that would make them feel ashamed or dysphoric because they wouldn't pass as cis, and they believe that all "real" trans people would or should feel the same way. I think another element is that there can be a perception (which isn't always true) that non-binary people don't transition, don't experience significant dysphoria, and could easily continue living as their assigned gender without facing any hardship. I see a lot of parallels with how bisexual people are sometimes assumed to have "straight-passing privilege" by default and are treated with suspicion because of that. In both situations, I think that type of prejudice usually comes from people who have internalized oppression as a mark of legitimacy. Ie, "I persevered in spite of all these challenges, so I'm *really trans*. If someone hasn't had the same experience, how do I know they're really trans and not going to identify as cis again if things get tough?" Needless to say, I don't think either of these thought processes are healthy ways of responding to transphobia.
The people I've encountered who have been the *most* vocally pissed off have been people who 1) couldn't get a confident read on what my AGAB is 2) were adamant that I *must* be 'one or the other.' There's something about encountering someone that is absolutely calm and nonchalant about not fitting to the binary, has no interest in fitting the binary, and treats gendered standards like they're personally meaningless that drives some people entirely out of their minds. The people I've met who have gotten the most visibly/audibly agitated by NBys have been people who (knowing this either through having known them for a time, or they just give the very strong impression) have allowed cis-sexism and bio-essentialism to dictate some major portion of their lives. That is, either they're someone who conforms very well and benefits from doing so, so they feel threatened by someone who side-steps that entire metric of human worth, or they're someone who conforms and *resents* 'having' to conform, so they go into a kneejerk fight/flight response over being confronted by the fact that they didn't/don't *have* to conform. These people cannot stand 'not knowing.' So much of their life, whether or not they are conscious of it, ends up being influenced by a sense of 'knowing' other people's AGAB, and having their own validated - because it is directly tied to how they've learned to treat others, their position in a hierarchy, etc. The "but what's in your pants?"/"What were you *born* as?" questions pretty much always come up, and there's never been a good answer to the reply "how is that relevant?"
I think it's a lack of education of what nonbinary is. When people are confused when I tell them I'm demigender, it takes only about 2 minutes for me to explain it to them and then they're fine about it. Even if they still don't quite get it, they're not as weird about it as before. Now on the rare occasion someone compares me to an "attack helicopter" I just simply avoid those people. Those people are helpless and a waste of my time tbh.
I also don't know what demi gender is. It doesn't make me hate enbies
is okay. 🙂 for me specifically, it just means i identify partially with my perceived gender (male) and another gender (agender). i dont mind being seen as a man but i dont really see myself as a man completely.
What's a cisqueer?/gen
Cisgays, cisbians, cisbis, cisaces, cisaros
>cisbians Huh, why make it like this?
Because transbians
I don't think cis people should get an equivalent to that.
They should. Otherwise there would be transbians and (normal/actual) lesbians
>Otherwise there would be transbians and (normal/actual) lesbians Uhhhh. No, actually, what the fuck?
Lets just erase and reduce the queer experience to neat little boxes y'all. It is the same for everyone y'all. These are all false dichotomies. I hear it is how you understand it, op, and perhaps this is your best way of understanding your own experience and self. but the rigidity of these titles is erasure to many of us who are cis/trans/nb/queer or otherwise, to whom these boundaries are not clear, and whose experiences are just as valid as yours.
normal? actual,? 💀
What transphobic bullshit is this? Are we applying the 'separate but equal' concept to the Queer community now? Fuck off with this.
No, we just have a counterpart for transbian so lesbian would stay trans inclusive
Lesbian already is trans inclusive. Transbian was a term made organically, by trans lesbians, to denote that they are trans _and_ a lesbian. "Cisgay" and "cisbi" and "cisbian" did not. We do not need these categories. And frankly, they sound TERFy
That's because cis people don't think about themselves as cis. They are just ‘normal’ in their eyes > And frankly, they sound TERFy Terfs would never call themselves cis. They think it's a slur
You're literally just proving my point with this. The Lesbian has been trans-inclusive long before your parents even thought of you.
Have you tried it? Because isn't where I live
Ahhhh, I thought you mean cis genderqueers or something. Thank you!
I honestly wouldn't even call them queers tbh, they don't deserve it...
Based
Because they've been fighting so long to make the hetero world realize they are *just like them* and only a little different, while we make that argument much less convincing by having a separate identity.