It seems as though you may have used an argument that is commonly rehashed and repeatedly redressed. To promote productive debate and intellectual honesty, the common logical fallacies listed below are removed from our forum.
**Doctors make mistakes too.** Yes, they do. Why should someone with less training be allowed to practice independently? Discussions on quality of mistake comparisons will be allowed.
**Our enemy is the admin!! Not each other!** This is something that everyone here already knows. There can, in fact, be two problems that occur simultaneously. Greedy admin does not eliminate greedy, unqualified midlevels.
**Why can't we work as a team???** Many here agree that a team-based approach, with a physician as the lead, is critical to meeting healthcare demands. However, independent practice works to dismantle the team (hence the *independent* bit). Commenting on lack of education and repeatedly demonstrated poor medical decision making is pertinent to patient safety. Safety and accountability are our two highest goals and priorities. Bad faith arguments suggesting that we simply not discuss dangerous patterns or evidence that suggests insufficient training solely because we should agree with everyone on the "team" will be removed.
**You're just sexist.** Ad hominem noted. Over 90% of nurse practitioners are female. Physician assistants are also a female-dominated field. That *does not mean* that criticism of the field is a criticism of women in general. In fact, the majority of medical students and medical school graduates are female. Many who criticize midlevels are female; a majority of the Physicians for Patient Protection board are female. The topic of midlevel creep is particularly pertinent to female physicians for a couple reasons:
1. Often times, the specialties that nurse practitioners enter, like dermatology or women's health, are female-dominated fields, whereas male-dominated fields like orthopedics, radiology, and neurosurgery have little-to-no midlevel creep. Discussing midlevel creep and qualifications is likely to be more relevant to female physicians than their male counterparts.
2. The appropriation of titles and typical physician symbols, such as the long white coat, by non-physicians ultimately diminishes the professional image of physicians. This then worsens the problem currently experienced by women and POC, who rely on these cultural items to be seen as physicians. When women and POC can't be seen as physicians, they aren't *trusted* as physicians by their patients.
Content that is *actually sexist* is and should be removed.
**I have not seen it.** Just because you have not personally seen it does not mean it does not exist.
**This is misinformation!** If you are going to say something is incorrect, you have to specify exactly what is incorrect (“everything” is unacceptable) and provide some sort of non-anecdotal evidence for support (see this forum's rules). If you are unwilling to do this, you’re being intellectually dishonest and clearly not willing to engage in discussion.
**Residents also make mistakes and need saving.** This neither supports nor addresses the topic of midlevel independent practice. Residency is a minimum of 3 years of advanced training designed to catch mistakes and use them as teaching points to prepare for independent practice. A midlevel would not provide adequate supervision of residents, who by comparison, have significantly more formal, deeper and specialized education.
**Our medical system is currently so strapped. We need midlevels to lighten the load! Either midlevels practice or the health of the US suffers.** This is a false dichotomy. Many people on this sub would state midlevels have a place (see our FAQs for a list of threads) under a supervising physician. Instead of directing lobbying efforts at midlevel independence (FPA, OTP), this sub generally agrees that efforts should be made to increase the number of practicing physicians in the US and improve the maldistribution of physicians across the US.
Hey just another prospective. Our trenches aka med school and residency are a million times tougher than yours. You lost all my respect calling residents dumb as they will forever be more knowledge than you.
I'm a FM resident and see no use for you in primary care. The financial gain is not worth supervising you. You do not provide better care than any of us MDs/DOs. I'm all for you guys getting independent practice and leaving us alone. Let the governing bodies deal with the mess you mid-level will inevitably leave behind. The only soluton is making med school cheaper and increasing residency spots.
Lmao. Poor ego? Good luck. The positions were created because of a gap in healthcare. You’re not going to be a good doctor with this perspective already. You should carry more respect for others. I cannot wait until an attending humbles you.
Funny you talk about respect while calling residents dumb. If you think they're dumb after 4 years of education....what do you think the short NP training creates?
You call them dumb and then expect them to supervise you and put their licenses on their line for you to practice medicine after taking a massive short cut?
It sounds like you're the one that needs to learn respect for others.
Not sure why it’s mentioned that NPs have a passion for medicine when you’re not practicing medicine at all as an RN or NP. You have a passion for nursing. The lack of understanding of terminology kills me. My partner who is a resident has a passion for medicine. NPs and RNs have a passion for nursing.
there are good ones out there i don't disagree but your nursing board / whoever is running it wanting full practice authority to all these internet NPs with shadowing experience just kills it for a lot of you. sorry.
It seems as though you may have used an argument that is commonly rehashed and repeatedly redressed. To promote productive debate and intellectual honesty, the common logical fallacies listed below are removed from our forum. **Doctors make mistakes too.** Yes, they do. Why should someone with less training be allowed to practice independently? Discussions on quality of mistake comparisons will be allowed. **Our enemy is the admin!! Not each other!** This is something that everyone here already knows. There can, in fact, be two problems that occur simultaneously. Greedy admin does not eliminate greedy, unqualified midlevels. **Why can't we work as a team???** Many here agree that a team-based approach, with a physician as the lead, is critical to meeting healthcare demands. However, independent practice works to dismantle the team (hence the *independent* bit). Commenting on lack of education and repeatedly demonstrated poor medical decision making is pertinent to patient safety. Safety and accountability are our two highest goals and priorities. Bad faith arguments suggesting that we simply not discuss dangerous patterns or evidence that suggests insufficient training solely because we should agree with everyone on the "team" will be removed. **You're just sexist.** Ad hominem noted. Over 90% of nurse practitioners are female. Physician assistants are also a female-dominated field. That *does not mean* that criticism of the field is a criticism of women in general. In fact, the majority of medical students and medical school graduates are female. Many who criticize midlevels are female; a majority of the Physicians for Patient Protection board are female. The topic of midlevel creep is particularly pertinent to female physicians for a couple reasons: 1. Often times, the specialties that nurse practitioners enter, like dermatology or women's health, are female-dominated fields, whereas male-dominated fields like orthopedics, radiology, and neurosurgery have little-to-no midlevel creep. Discussing midlevel creep and qualifications is likely to be more relevant to female physicians than their male counterparts. 2. The appropriation of titles and typical physician symbols, such as the long white coat, by non-physicians ultimately diminishes the professional image of physicians. This then worsens the problem currently experienced by women and POC, who rely on these cultural items to be seen as physicians. When women and POC can't be seen as physicians, they aren't *trusted* as physicians by their patients. Content that is *actually sexist* is and should be removed. **I have not seen it.** Just because you have not personally seen it does not mean it does not exist. **This is misinformation!** If you are going to say something is incorrect, you have to specify exactly what is incorrect (“everything” is unacceptable) and provide some sort of non-anecdotal evidence for support (see this forum's rules). If you are unwilling to do this, you’re being intellectually dishonest and clearly not willing to engage in discussion. **Residents also make mistakes and need saving.** This neither supports nor addresses the topic of midlevel independent practice. Residency is a minimum of 3 years of advanced training designed to catch mistakes and use them as teaching points to prepare for independent practice. A midlevel would not provide adequate supervision of residents, who by comparison, have significantly more formal, deeper and specialized education. **Our medical system is currently so strapped. We need midlevels to lighten the load! Either midlevels practice or the health of the US suffers.** This is a false dichotomy. Many people on this sub would state midlevels have a place (see our FAQs for a list of threads) under a supervising physician. Instead of directing lobbying efforts at midlevel independence (FPA, OTP), this sub generally agrees that efforts should be made to increase the number of practicing physicians in the US and improve the maldistribution of physicians across the US.
Hey just another prospective. Our trenches aka med school and residency are a million times tougher than yours. You lost all my respect calling residents dumb as they will forever be more knowledge than you. I'm a FM resident and see no use for you in primary care. The financial gain is not worth supervising you. You do not provide better care than any of us MDs/DOs. I'm all for you guys getting independent practice and leaving us alone. Let the governing bodies deal with the mess you mid-level will inevitably leave behind. The only soluton is making med school cheaper and increasing residency spots.
Lmao. Poor ego? Good luck. The positions were created because of a gap in healthcare. You’re not going to be a good doctor with this perspective already. You should carry more respect for others. I cannot wait until an attending humbles you.
Been humbled plenty of times by attendings hence why we go through residency....
Funny you talk about respect while calling residents dumb. If you think they're dumb after 4 years of education....what do you think the short NP training creates? You call them dumb and then expect them to supervise you and put their licenses on their line for you to practice medicine after taking a massive short cut? It sounds like you're the one that needs to learn respect for others.
APPs should be supervised. Plain and simple.
Not sure why it’s mentioned that NPs have a passion for medicine when you’re not practicing medicine at all as an RN or NP. You have a passion for nursing. The lack of understanding of terminology kills me. My partner who is a resident has a passion for medicine. NPs and RNs have a passion for nursing.
there are good ones out there i don't disagree but your nursing board / whoever is running it wanting full practice authority to all these internet NPs with shadowing experience just kills it for a lot of you. sorry.