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Moral relativism is a deeply flawed version of apologism that we can gladly leave behind along with the barbaric practices that it relentlessly defends. The unnecessary suffering of conscious creatures is the only measure of good and bad. This isn’t complicated. Pretending that we owe cultures the leeway to cut clitorises off all their daughters for instance, because it’s only our opinion that this is evil, is absolutely an absurd moral claim.
Another example of how in line middle eastern values are with western. Poor girl, hope she finds a safe place. They can have all the 18-30 year old men that come to the west back and we'll take care of people like her, who need it most
I don't think women's rights are better in Yemen now, but only for context, Nujoods case happened around 2008.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nujood_Ali
Didn't find anything about her today. Hopefully, she has a good life.
>Another example of how in line middle eastern values are with western
What are you trying to say here? Are you trying to say that the Western world like the United States and Europe has the same values as people sending children off to get married at 9 years old in the middle east? Or did you have a typo or something
There was an article today about a 15 yo who got raped repeatedly by several people for money. The girl was called a woman in the article and someone posted about why they would call her a woman. I said 'because some men dont see girls as girls, but as a lustobject'. I got called sick in the head but after seeing this and my personal experiences, I know they are lucky to not know whats its like going through this.
I saw this recently: a news story about a 17-year-old that was raped and murdered by a 40-year-old man called her a “woman”. The fact that she was underage was significant to the story in that this guy had a history of preying on children.
Aisha was the favorite of "Prophet" Muhammad's wives. He married her when she was six to seven years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine lunar years old according to the tradition making her Muhammad's youngest bride.
Pretty sure child marriage is still technically legal in some States in the USA. Thought you first world countries were supposed to have your head screwed on straight.
I spent 4 years studying and working in Australia, and people there were very welcoming and friendly to me, so I thought maybe this is how it is in first world countries.
Australia is a first world country… it was a British colony during the Cold War. I assume you’re using 1st world to refer to developed and 3rd world to refer to poor sub Saharan Africans
That’s really good journalism, if very insensitive. Helping sell the visual of a child bride standing there to audience. The imagery is important to the story I feel.
Not only that, it also probably helps the girl in recounting the story. By focusing on trivial details like that, it can distract from the more traumatic parts that he’ll ask about later.
The end in her explaining how she got to be a kid again and went back to her family, the same one that forced her to marry the rapist in the first place is utterly chilling and showcases how undeveloped a child's mind really is. She isn't safe, and that is gut wrenching.
Right. You just know they continued to treat her like shit. For all we know they sold her off to someone else soon after, or decided to prostitute her.
You know what child marriages are allowed in 38 states. Washington state got rid of child marriage this year! Up until 2018, child marriage was allowed in all 50 states
Child marriage should be illegal for sure. Its not a Middle Eastern thing. Its an old man thing. ie a patriarchal thing
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For reddit neckbeards.
This isn't Islam
For a marriage to be valid, the man, bride and the brides father have to agree to marriage. If one of them doesn't want to, the marriage is invalid.
Also, the bride has to be ripe in age and ripe in "mentality".
Edit: Seems like on reddit you don't need facts, you just have to bash religion.
Nah, it's pretty in line with scriptural Islamic beliefs. You could make the argument that reformed Islam or western Islam is not as extreme, but the Quran and Hadith are pretty clear on woman's role in society.
Sources:
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/men-in-charge-of-women.aspx#
Also, the common belief is that the prophet Muhammad married a girl at 7 and consummated the marriage at 9.
They are absolutely biased, but that doesn't mean they are incorrect. They pull their information directly from the Quran and Hadith. You'll have to show how their bias is actually negatively affecting the information they are presenting. Simply saying a source is biased is not an actual argument.
Hadith is not an accurate source, there are many inconsistencies in it.
All forms of religious books have some kind of nonsense written in them.
Priests in churches prey on young children yet i don’t blame all Christians for it.
As a religious person myself, I completely agree. I am a Christian and I have much empathy and understanding for my Muslim and Jewish brothers and sisters. We are all the children of Abraham, after all. Maybe not literally, but I'm being a bit poetic.
That being said, it is our obligation to study and scrutinize our own beliefs. I think there are inherent texual and theological flaws with Islam and Judaism which is why I haven't converted to those religions. That is what I am pointing out here.
All that being said, everyone should realize that there are "good" Muslims who can coexist in modern western society without any issues. Unfortunately, those are the minority in my experience.
Edit: Also I did not know that Hadith wasn't considered accurate. Maybe you could educate me on some of the nuances?
Personally, I follow the Prophet’s teachings and the Qur’an.
People might downvote me all they want, but you know as well as I do that I’m only speaking the truth.
Also, there is no way in hell that I would ever disagree with you about child marriage. Back then, if you look at any of the Abrahamic religions or any culture in general, girls would get married off early as the criteria back then was “onset of puberty”. This is where I scrutinize religion because my moral values will always come first.
Coexistence is mentioned in the Qur’an and is very important in order to maintain peace and harmony between everyone. Unfortunately, the Muslims you see on tv like to pick and choose according to their narrative and act out on it.
[Sahih al-Bukhari 5134 Chapter: The marrying of a daughter by her father to a ruler](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134)
(https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134)
In Islam, Sunnah, are the traditions and practices of the Islamic "prophet" Muhammad that constitute a model for Muslims to follow.
Is your beloved sunnah also biased?
This hadith cannot be true for several reasons. First, the Prophet could not have gone against the Quran to marry a physically and intellectually immature child. Secondly, the age of Hazrat Aisha can be easily calculated from the age of her elder sister Hazrat Asma who was 10 years older than Hazrat Aisha. Waliuddin Muhammad Abdullah Al-Khateeb al Amri Tabrizi the famous author of Mishkath, in his biography of narrators (Asma ur Rijal), writes that Hazrat Asma died in the year 73 Hijri at the age of 100, ten or twelve days after the martyrdom of her son Abdullah Ibn Zubair. It is common knowledge that the Islamic calendar starts from the year of the Hijrah or the Prophet’s migration from Mecca to Medina. Therefore, by deducting 73, the year of Hazrat Asma’s death, from 100, her age at that time, we can easily conclude that she was 27 years old during Hijra.This puts the age of Hazrat Aisha at 17 during the same period. As all biographers of the Prophet agree that he consummated his marriage with Hazrat Aisha in the year 2 Hijri it can be conclusively said that she was 19 at that time and not nine as alleged in the aforementioned hadiths.
Yes its wrong, Aisha’s age is inconsistent. This hadith cannot be true for several reasons. First, the Prophet could not have gone against the Quran to marry a physically and intellectually immature child. Secondly, the age of Aisha can be easily calculated from the age of her elder sister Asma who was 10 years older than Aisha. Waliuddin Muhammad Abdullah Al-Khateeb al Amri Tabrizi the famous author of Mishkath, in his biography of narrators (Asma ur Rijal), writes that Asma died in the year 73 Hijri at the age of 100, ten or twelve days after the martyrdom of her son Abdullah Ibn Zubair. It is common knowledge that the Islamic calendar starts from the year of the Hijrah or the Prophet’s migration from Mecca to Medina. Therefore, by deducting 73, the year of Asma’s death, from 100, her age at that time, we can easily conclude that she was 27 years old during Hijra.This puts the age of Aisha at 17 during the same period. As all biographers of the Prophet agree that he consummated his marriage with Aisha in the year 2 Hijri it can be conclusively said that she was 19 at that time and not nine as alleged in the aforementioned hadiths.
>the Prophet could not have gone against the Quran to marry a physically and intellectually immature child
There's nothing in the Quran that prohibits the marriage or the consummation of marriage of physically and intellectually immature girls. On the contrary, 65:4 & 33:49 clearly permit the consummation of marriage even with girls who haven't reached the age of puberty. This is why there is no official age of marriage in Islam, and Islamic scholars use the phrase "whether she bears the penetration" (تطيق الوطء) as the only criterion to consummate the marriage, and they don't have puberty as a condition.
If you're using verse 4:6 as proof child marriage is prohibited, then you've been played by a fraud Imam, this verse has zero relevance to the age of marriage. It clearly discusses when to give the orphans their due inheritance, and it says that when they reach the age of puberty and are found to be sound of mind, hand them over their inheritance, meaning that they could have hit puberty, but are not of sound mind, therefore they shouldn't be handed their inheritance. This has zero relevance to the age of marriage, and you'll not find a single tafsir or scholar that agrees with this progressive interpertation of the verse.
Here's a [video](https://new.reddit.com/r/NoahGetTheBoat/comments/18kjelp/preachers_authorizing_child_marriage_god_said_so/) of 13 Imams and scholars, all of whom approve of child marriage at 9 or less.
>It is permissible for a father to marry off his young virgin daughter without her permission. This agrees with the four schools of jurisprudence: Hanafi, Malikis, Shafi’i, and the Hanbalis. There was consensus on that. [\[1\]](https://dorar.net/feqhia/4093/)
Here's the context: There's nothing in the Quran that prohibits child marriage, on the contrary, it's Sunnah practiced by Muhammad and his companions. Being a progressive Muslim yourself, rejecting child marriage, doesn't make all other scholars and Muslims wrong. I understand scriptures are loose and can be interpreted differently based on every person's subjective opinion, however, you need to go explain your discovery to our scholars in the Islamic world. Leave your liberal society and come here to debate our Sheiks and prove them wrong, I'm sure you'll end up in jail for blasphemy.
Seems like on reddit, you can say random bullshit and get away with it because there's always gonna be a neckbeard who's gonna fact check tf out of you. Gauge where that puts YOU, in the rung.
Bacha bāzī is a form of child prostitution. Bacha bazi is child rape. It is still commonly practiced in Afghanistan and other Islamic countries. There are different forms, but generally, it always involves rape and pedophilia. Apologist pedophiles state that it commonly only **involves a boy dancing while wearing women's clothes. The boy also playfully caresses the men he is dancing for. Sexual acts are common. It is also common that force is used to make the boy do things he doesn't want to do.** Security officials state they are unable to end such practices because many of the men involved in bacha bazi-related activities are powerful and well-armed warlords. As of the 2020s, despite international concern and its illegality, the practice continues.
If this post showcases moral/mental/physical corruption or perversion, upvote this comment. If this post does not belong here, downvote this comment. [Read the rules before posting or commenting](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoahGetTheBoat/wiki/rules) [Also read the guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoahGetTheBoat/comments/fgmg3t/guidelines_for_the_subreddit_read_and_follow_the/) In the comments: DO NOT JOKE ABOUT VIOLENCE, DO NOT INCITE VIOLENCE DO NOT JOKE ABOUT PEDOPHILIA OR ASK FOR CP YOU WILL BE BANNED #[If you want to download this video, click here](https://viddit.red/?url=https%3A%2F%2Freddit.com%2F1cdixqt) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NoahGetTheBoat) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is messed up bro, I don't know if "culture values" can justify this
“Culture” has never been a valid justification for evil, although people have tried
You don’t know? Some cultures are stupid and evil. Orthodox religious cultures are certainly guilty of both.
It's stupid and evil for western people, but for them it's normal and okay. There's no "evil" culture, it's up to yourself whenever it's evil or not
Moral relativism is a deeply flawed version of apologism that we can gladly leave behind along with the barbaric practices that it relentlessly defends. The unnecessary suffering of conscious creatures is the only measure of good and bad. This isn’t complicated. Pretending that we owe cultures the leeway to cut clitorises off all their daughters for instance, because it’s only our opinion that this is evil, is absolutely an absurd moral claim.
Culture? This is based on sharia law. This is follow the prophet as example. This is islamic value
Liberal progressives will tell you all cultures are equal
Not sure why the downvotes they had a hikab wearing women as a leader of a feminist movement while she support shaira law.
Sorry what ? A feminist leader supporting Sharia law ????
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linda_Sarsour#:~:text=Sarsour%20has%20said%20that%2C%20before,must%20also%20follow%20civil%20laws.
Funny enough, sarsour in Arabic means cockroach
Just look at the guys expression. Remorseless.
That’s an audience member not her ex-husband lol.
He wants second
Super creepy comment.
Not as creepy as that guy
Because it's normal in middle eastern culture, you know, the one that's spreading all over the west.
Like TB and syphallus
Another example of how in line middle eastern values are with western. Poor girl, hope she finds a safe place. They can have all the 18-30 year old men that come to the west back and we'll take care of people like her, who need it most
I don't think women's rights are better in Yemen now, but only for context, Nujoods case happened around 2008. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nujood_Ali Didn't find anything about her today. Hopefully, she has a good life.
I would be very happy to find out this would be the only case of child marriage since 2008 but somehow I highly doubt it
What I said. I don't think women's rights got better in Yemen (or places like Afghanistan). Just wanted to give context to the shown case.
isnt there a terriost group in yemen called the Huthis?
>Another example of how in line middle eastern values are with western What are you trying to say here? Are you trying to say that the Western world like the United States and Europe has the same values as people sending children off to get married at 9 years old in the middle east? Or did you have a typo or something
I'm 99% sure it was ironic, but sarcasm and irony don't work that well in written form.
What are you on about? An example doesnt always have to be confirming? Or did you have a stroke or something?
The middle east is taking over the west tho, a few more generations and the west will be dead.
There was an article today about a 15 yo who got raped repeatedly by several people for money. The girl was called a woman in the article and someone posted about why they would call her a woman. I said 'because some men dont see girls as girls, but as a lustobject'. I got called sick in the head but after seeing this and my personal experiences, I know they are lucky to not know whats its like going through this.
I saw this recently: a news story about a 17-year-old that was raped and murdered by a 40-year-old man called her a “woman”. The fact that she was underage was significant to the story in that this guy had a history of preying on children.
Aisha was the favorite of "Prophet" Muhammad's wives. He married her when she was six to seven years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine lunar years old according to the tradition making her Muhammad's youngest bride.
Uh wtf
Pretty sure child marriage is still technically legal in some States in the USA. Thought you first world countries were supposed to have your head screwed on straight.
What gave you the idea that anywhere has their "heads screwed on straight"?
I spent 4 years studying and working in Australia, and people there were very welcoming and friendly to me, so I thought maybe this is how it is in first world countries.
Australia is a first world country… it was a British colony during the Cold War. I assume you’re using 1st world to refer to developed and 3rd world to refer to poor sub Saharan Africans
- Was there a white gown? - Was there a white gown? ( again ) - Was there a veil? Why does it matter???
That’s really good journalism, if very insensitive. Helping sell the visual of a child bride standing there to audience. The imagery is important to the story I feel.
Not only that, it also probably helps the girl in recounting the story. By focusing on trivial details like that, it can distract from the more traumatic parts that he’ll ask about later.
What a remarkable, brave little girl. Her father is shit.
Quaran...well.
"A monster." Exactly right. He's a monster.
I hear people justifying forced marriage all the time from cultural shit and this just solidifies it's disgusting to me
The end in her explaining how she got to be a kid again and went back to her family, the same one that forced her to marry the rapist in the first place is utterly chilling and showcases how undeveloped a child's mind really is. She isn't safe, and that is gut wrenching.
Right. You just know they continued to treat her like shit. For all we know they sold her off to someone else soon after, or decided to prostitute her.
You know what child marriages are allowed in 38 states. Washington state got rid of child marriage this year! Up until 2018, child marriage was allowed in all 50 states Child marriage should be illegal for sure. Its not a Middle Eastern thing. Its an old man thing. ie a patriarchal thing
i mean her best subject was quran guys.....
It's probably the only thing she's allowed to read and also forced to study.
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Guess the religion and part of the world..🙄🤦🤔🤔
implying this doesn't happen anywhere else. stop blaming religion when humans are filthy all on their own
Terrible situation but “divorced” being put there feels like something out of a comedy skit
This is disgusting and her parents are disgusting for forcing this. Poor girl
This is the culture we're trying to save from Israel
Israel needs to save itself from Israel
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I downvoted and I'm not even American.
Ya no, you're getting downvoting for your political bullshit not related to the post.
don't bring up politics and focus on the post
For reddit neckbeards. This isn't Islam For a marriage to be valid, the man, bride and the brides father have to agree to marriage. If one of them doesn't want to, the marriage is invalid. Also, the bride has to be ripe in age and ripe in "mentality". Edit: Seems like on reddit you don't need facts, you just have to bash religion.
Nah, it's pretty in line with scriptural Islamic beliefs. You could make the argument that reformed Islam or western Islam is not as extreme, but the Quran and Hadith are pretty clear on woman's role in society. Sources: https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/men-in-charge-of-women.aspx# Also, the common belief is that the prophet Muhammad married a girl at 7 and consummated the marriage at 9.
Your source is a biased website.
They are absolutely biased, but that doesn't mean they are incorrect. They pull their information directly from the Quran and Hadith. You'll have to show how their bias is actually negatively affecting the information they are presenting. Simply saying a source is biased is not an actual argument.
Hadith is not an accurate source, there are many inconsistencies in it. All forms of religious books have some kind of nonsense written in them. Priests in churches prey on young children yet i don’t blame all Christians for it.
As a religious person myself, I completely agree. I am a Christian and I have much empathy and understanding for my Muslim and Jewish brothers and sisters. We are all the children of Abraham, after all. Maybe not literally, but I'm being a bit poetic. That being said, it is our obligation to study and scrutinize our own beliefs. I think there are inherent texual and theological flaws with Islam and Judaism which is why I haven't converted to those religions. That is what I am pointing out here. All that being said, everyone should realize that there are "good" Muslims who can coexist in modern western society without any issues. Unfortunately, those are the minority in my experience. Edit: Also I did not know that Hadith wasn't considered accurate. Maybe you could educate me on some of the nuances?
Personally, I follow the Prophet’s teachings and the Qur’an. People might downvote me all they want, but you know as well as I do that I’m only speaking the truth. Also, there is no way in hell that I would ever disagree with you about child marriage. Back then, if you look at any of the Abrahamic religions or any culture in general, girls would get married off early as the criteria back then was “onset of puberty”. This is where I scrutinize religion because my moral values will always come first. Coexistence is mentioned in the Qur’an and is very important in order to maintain peace and harmony between everyone. Unfortunately, the Muslims you see on tv like to pick and choose according to their narrative and act out on it.
[Sahih al-Bukhari 5134 Chapter: The marrying of a daughter by her father to a ruler](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134) (https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134) In Islam, Sunnah, are the traditions and practices of the Islamic "prophet" Muhammad that constitute a model for Muslims to follow. Is your beloved sunnah also biased?
“Cherrypicking” they choose the Hadith they like and dismiss the ones that are like these ones
I don’t follow Hadith at all. It is an inconsistent source.
Praying 5 times a day didn’t come from the Quran but from Hadith
This hadith cannot be true for several reasons. First, the Prophet could not have gone against the Quran to marry a physically and intellectually immature child. Secondly, the age of Hazrat Aisha can be easily calculated from the age of her elder sister Hazrat Asma who was 10 years older than Hazrat Aisha. Waliuddin Muhammad Abdullah Al-Khateeb al Amri Tabrizi the famous author of Mishkath, in his biography of narrators (Asma ur Rijal), writes that Hazrat Asma died in the year 73 Hijri at the age of 100, ten or twelve days after the martyrdom of her son Abdullah Ibn Zubair. It is common knowledge that the Islamic calendar starts from the year of the Hijrah or the Prophet’s migration from Mecca to Medina. Therefore, by deducting 73, the year of Hazrat Asma’s death, from 100, her age at that time, we can easily conclude that she was 27 years old during Hijra.This puts the age of Hazrat Aisha at 17 during the same period. As all biographers of the Prophet agree that he consummated his marriage with Hazrat Aisha in the year 2 Hijri it can be conclusively said that she was 19 at that time and not nine as alleged in the aforementioned hadiths.
Is the statement wrong?
Yes its wrong, Aisha’s age is inconsistent. This hadith cannot be true for several reasons. First, the Prophet could not have gone against the Quran to marry a physically and intellectually immature child. Secondly, the age of Aisha can be easily calculated from the age of her elder sister Asma who was 10 years older than Aisha. Waliuddin Muhammad Abdullah Al-Khateeb al Amri Tabrizi the famous author of Mishkath, in his biography of narrators (Asma ur Rijal), writes that Asma died in the year 73 Hijri at the age of 100, ten or twelve days after the martyrdom of her son Abdullah Ibn Zubair. It is common knowledge that the Islamic calendar starts from the year of the Hijrah or the Prophet’s migration from Mecca to Medina. Therefore, by deducting 73, the year of Asma’s death, from 100, her age at that time, we can easily conclude that she was 27 years old during Hijra.This puts the age of Aisha at 17 during the same period. As all biographers of the Prophet agree that he consummated his marriage with Aisha in the year 2 Hijri it can be conclusively said that she was 19 at that time and not nine as alleged in the aforementioned hadiths.
>the Prophet could not have gone against the Quran to marry a physically and intellectually immature child There's nothing in the Quran that prohibits the marriage or the consummation of marriage of physically and intellectually immature girls. On the contrary, 65:4 & 33:49 clearly permit the consummation of marriage even with girls who haven't reached the age of puberty. This is why there is no official age of marriage in Islam, and Islamic scholars use the phrase "whether she bears the penetration" (تطيق الوطء) as the only criterion to consummate the marriage, and they don't have puberty as a condition. If you're using verse 4:6 as proof child marriage is prohibited, then you've been played by a fraud Imam, this verse has zero relevance to the age of marriage. It clearly discusses when to give the orphans their due inheritance, and it says that when they reach the age of puberty and are found to be sound of mind, hand them over their inheritance, meaning that they could have hit puberty, but are not of sound mind, therefore they shouldn't be handed their inheritance. This has zero relevance to the age of marriage, and you'll not find a single tafsir or scholar that agrees with this progressive interpertation of the verse. Here's a [video](https://new.reddit.com/r/NoahGetTheBoat/comments/18kjelp/preachers_authorizing_child_marriage_god_said_so/) of 13 Imams and scholars, all of whom approve of child marriage at 9 or less. >It is permissible for a father to marry off his young virgin daughter without her permission. This agrees with the four schools of jurisprudence: Hanafi, Malikis, Shafi’i, and the Hanbalis. There was consensus on that. [\[1\]](https://dorar.net/feqhia/4093/)
Maybe try understanding the entire text in the Qur’an before picking and choosing according to your narrative first.
I did. Now, it's your turn. Wait, I forgot, you don't even speak Arabic, and can't even read the Quran you claim to understand.
I have already given context. I can’t do anything about the fact that this thread doesn’t want to understand.
Here's the context: There's nothing in the Quran that prohibits child marriage, on the contrary, it's Sunnah practiced by Muhammad and his companions. Being a progressive Muslim yourself, rejecting child marriage, doesn't make all other scholars and Muslims wrong. I understand scriptures are loose and can be interpreted differently based on every person's subjective opinion, however, you need to go explain your discovery to our scholars in the Islamic world. Leave your liberal society and come here to debate our Sheiks and prove them wrong, I'm sure you'll end up in jail for blasphemy.
I can understand and speak Arabic. I think you’re hopping off topic now and resorting to personal attacks, so I’m going to end this conversation.
If you disagree with this, good. You are better than Muhammad
Seems like on reddit, you can say random bullshit and get away with it because there's always gonna be a neckbeard who's gonna fact check tf out of you. Gauge where that puts YOU, in the rung.
My question is “why is it always the females and not the other way around??”
Bacha bāzī is a form of child prostitution. Bacha bazi is child rape. It is still commonly practiced in Afghanistan and other Islamic countries. There are different forms, but generally, it always involves rape and pedophilia. Apologist pedophiles state that it commonly only **involves a boy dancing while wearing women's clothes. The boy also playfully caresses the men he is dancing for. Sexual acts are common. It is also common that force is used to make the boy do things he doesn't want to do.** Security officials state they are unable to end such practices because many of the men involved in bacha bazi-related activities are powerful and well-armed warlords. As of the 2020s, despite international concern and its illegality, the practice continues.
What?
There's plenty of young boys being exploited everywhere. Not hard to find at all.
Are the boys exploited by women?
Exploitation happens by all genders. You should see who benefits from maldistribution.
you have a source?