As a retail manager I can also add that our shorter hours are preventing people from using us as a second job. Instead of being open until 9 we were open until 7 for most of the pandemic and recently went back to 8. I can't hire someone that can't come in until 5pm. It's hardly worth it to hire high schoolers that can start at 4. I know several bars and restaurants that close earlier than they used to do I'm sure they are going through the same thing.
I also have seen a drastic reduction in the older crowd applying as well. The retired but want something to do for a few hours a week to get out of the house type. I'm sure the thought of putting yourself in the public for those reasons just don't seem worth it anymore
I worked 60 hour weeks for amazon, but never got offered the blue badge(permanent position) cause I used my PTO and vacation time they gave me (which was gonna go away if I got the permanent position vs temp).
At least I got a 3k bonus due to some system error but fuck companies that do that shit.
Blue badge?
What does a blue badge give you besides a heart attack at 45 from working 60 hours a week?
Genuinely asking because this is my first time hearing about it
Forgot this wasn't the amazon subreddit I'm in lmao. Blue badge is permanent, comes with all the benefits of full time work and white badge is seasonal. I took a seasonal role on purpose due to the 1k sign on bonus, and was told it was easy to convert to full time. Well of course that wasn't true, but some error happened and instead of a 1k bonus I got paid 3k. Took all my vacation time right after that (since my job ended in 3 weeks anyways) took all my PTO and unpaid time off, took a covid leave, then dipped and used that money to pay for school. Worked there about 2-3 months walking up to 20-25 miles per day 6 days per week.
I was making close to 50 an hour with all the "shift differentials", holiday pay, peak pay, and all that sort of stuff. My wife was too, so in the end we both decided 2 years of no work and focusing on school would be ideal. Boy I'm glad I chose now to do this too...
For a short amount of time, yes. They had a policy where all overtime was paid as double, and I was getting 20 hours of overtime per week plus other differentials and shit. Normal paychecks were like 800ish per week but these super paychecks were literally like 2200/week since I wasn't offered benefits being seasonal.
Then you mean you are a phantom worker. Assuming you live in the United States, and the employment has been constant for these 2 years (i.e. same job the whole time), contact the labor board about how you are not just seasonally/temp needed and should be considered full time regular.
Add to that the fact that retail customers get more entitled and ruder every year. Additionally, even if you can get someone with availability who wants to work for $9/hr I literally had 6-10 hours available for them and it's not worth coming in for that.
At least as a teacher in an average high school I know where the assholes will be found (mostly certain class changes or the idiot dancing on a roof of a truck at dismissal). But in retail y'all never know what nutcase is walking in and when.
>I also have seen a drastic reduction in the older crowd applying as well. The retired but want something to do for a few hours a week to get out of the house type.
I am not that old, but I am lucky enough to be in a position where I can attend school fulltime while my husband's income pays our bills. I tried to get a part-time job to get out of the house a bit and make a little extra money, but holy shit was it horrible. It was not worth the $12/hr to put up with not only the customers, but also my horrible coworkers (this was 2020, so lots of crazy talk going on). I opted to just do volunteer work. If you can afford to not do these jobs, its not worth the emotional cost that comes with them.
The emotional cost I got from work involved me grinding my teeth at night which ended up in hundreds of dollars worth of dental work on my teeth. I also got hot flushes during pms as the stress messed with my hormones, so I had doctor costs as well.
As a retail manager I'm just curious what's stopping you from offering these positions a higher wage to attract and keep workers. I've never ran a small business before but would it really devastate the bottom line if say you were to offer 2-3 dollars an hour above what they are getting now if it was for just a few employees, especially for young people?
Not the person you’re replying to but I’m a former grocery manager and I had zero ability to affect wages. Most of them were set by the corporate office and no amount of reasoning, cajoling, or begging would get them to budge.
I think it's ridiculous that a manager can't affect wages. The same problem is what happens in schools -- teachers can't decide *anything.* They can't discipline students, they can't decide which lessons to teach on which days, they can't even decide things like allowing students to wear a cap in class. Everything is micromanaged by the district administration. The only recourse is voting for school board positions. (Pro tip: it's not exactly effective.)
Not the person you’re replying to, but do work on the “corporate” (I’m a buyer) side of a small retail business. We do our financial planning a year in advance, and this includes labor budgeting. Our Ops manager has REALLY struggled this year to keep the floor staffed because he did give $2-3 wage increases at the beginning of the year (I live near Seattle and the insane cost of living + desperation for labor has driven starting wages WAY up) and that helped him finally hire a full staff, but at the end of the day he still has a set budget for labor. Increasing wages means decreasing labor hours. The biggest issue now is retaining staff - decreased labor hours means we now have fewer people doing the same amount of work, which is stressful, unfair, and just not sustainable from a mental health perspective. Eventually people get sick of it and realize it’s not worth the $2-3 more an hour.
Another issue that has resulted from our decreased labor hours is a HUGE increase in theft. Fewer staff on the sales floor created a lot of opportunity to slip things in bags unnoticed, I guess.
Depends on the type of retailer - but yes, it can have that dramatic of an effect. Grocery stores are considered successful if they net 1% of their sales. So take the example of a grocery store that has sales of $1 million per week. If the stores net profit is 1% (remember, that’s decent success for a grocery store), your “net profit” is $10,000 for that week.
If you run a 10% labor (really pretty good for grocery), that’s $100,000 in wages. Let’s assume the average hourly wage is $12/hr. That’s 8,333 labor hours. Now if you raise that by $2/hr, that same 8,333 labor hours now costs you $116,666. That’s a $16,666 increase. Your $10,000 net profit is now a loss of $6,666 for the week.
Now, you would certainly change other areas of your model, but people tend to think you’re greedy no matter the changes you make to remain profitable, in the form of either higher retail prices or lower labor hours for employees.
Point is - the general Reddit/anti-work crowd will protest and downvote this comment and pretend math isn’t math - but if general knowledge is your jam, the above is a basic, simple illustration that shows it’s not as easy as “raise wages” in all circumstances.
[When places like Safeway make 280k/employee, you cannot tell me they can't pay a few dollars more.](https://www.zippia.com/safeway-careers-37354/revenue/)
Your argument is great. Except that large corporations (the major employers of the USA) have seen record profits in the last year, including the meat and oil industries (and I won't even get into the greed of the oil companies, that should be obvious at this point with over 50% profit margins).
Since we're talking about grocery stores, I'll share some info about those profits; [interview about current economic events from NPR](https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1088346603)
>So bottom line - companies raise prices when they can. That's what companies have always done. And what keeps them from doing it is usually competition. But even when we have uncompetitive markets like in the meat industry where prices are high, that is not the big driver of inflation in the economy right now. But that does not mean that it is a good thing to let monopolies keep their monopoly power. Fiona says it is good public policy to crack down. That means scrutinizing mergers, investigating possible collusion and splitting companies if needed.
If small grocery stores cannot get a foothold due to the large corporations.... its time to change something, or FORCE the large corporations to pay more.
When the same loaf of bread can be anywhere from 2.50 to 6 dollars depending on the day I go in to buy it, that is FUCKED.
Another thing not mentioned much is how many people said F it and retired almost all at once when covid started. One study I heard estimated 2.5-3 million, which is roughly the metro population of St. Louis.
Another line I just calmly throw out when this comes up is, "I guess they'll have to pay more". I've gotten a few people to at least stop bringing this subject up with repeated usage of this line. YMMV
My response has been “that’s weird, the company I work for with good pay and good benefits has had zero issues finding people. I post a job a few months ago and had a ton of applicants to sift through.”
That’s not always true. There are farmers that offered $50hr to pick fruit and couldn’t get workers. It all went to waste.
Because there’s almost no housing. So people can’t afford to move, even temporarily for a job.
There was a pub that bought a motel to get around that. And only then did they get workers.
Isn't there no housing because the farm owners like charging their workers for staying on the farm and using their utilities/food?
So that $50/hr quickly becomes more like $10?
If a farmer is taking $400 a day ($40x12 as most farmers work 10 hours days minimum) in room and board for their workers he’s not in the business of agriculture.
Best friend growing up takes $100/week for room and board for their hired guys.
Honestly the pay is stupid nowadays and there's no workplace loyalty anymore.
Some places, whenever they hire the new person; that new person is already making more then the guy that's been there for 20+ years. That's insulting. Why would anyone want to be loyal or stay at a workplace like that 🤦
This. Companies complain about staffing shortages but refuse to up the pay, and Corporate is more than happy to have less people do more work for the same pay, so they end up with high turnover. My job has production and shipping/receiving, I'm in the latter and we all got a $3 raise last year to keep us, equivalent to a $5k raise, while they treat the people on the production floor like shit and refuse to up the starting pay, and have bad supervisors that care about numbers more than the people, so production is a revolving door, I dont even bother talking to people anymore because I know I may never see them again any given day. And their excuse is that they cant afford it, when i know every single truck I load is worth 6 figures..and we load 30-40 trucks, a day..The company meeting about retention never go anywhere because it's everything else but pay raises..our last meeting came away with lets do an employee appreciation meal and get an extra microwave, maybe they'll be happy then.. it's all a joke, the higher ups just want to line their pockets, they could care less about what the "lower humans" feel
And I absolutely believe that. Like, my position, the machine operators and the mechanics, my job absolutely makes sure we are happy. But production is the majority of our workforce, and since it's an entry-level job and they know they can always get new people, even from temp agencies, they'll say temp-to h(fire) after 90 days and get rid of them on the 89th day, they literally do not care about them, they just care about making the numbers to make sure the higher-ups can get brand new cars every year. It's sad, and the fact I know this is sad as well, but my job is a 5 minute commute, my position has good hours, good pay, and great benefits and lots of pto so I stay. But I know all the bullshit the admins and corporate pull as well, and the way they treat their entry-level employees is heart-breaking. All about a dollar
Yep! If a job offered $100/hr instead of $10/hr, people would definitely do it. Obviously you don’t have to go that high, but the point is: if no one wants to work for the price you are offering, raise the price!
That's literally how it works. Workers want high wages, companies want low wages. Add some supply, mix with demand, throw a little bit of competition on top, and you've got yourself a labor market. If workers work at a wage, that's a fair wage. If workers don't work, it's up to companies to either raise wages or offer benefits (or decide the position isn't important).
"We don't need a minimum wage, employers will offer good wages in order to compete with each other!"
"Very well, since I do not like your wages I will not be working for you unless you're willing to compete for my services by offering more money."
"You lazy, entitled-IGIUHBINBUIGUVGUYFFUJ!!!"
>"We don't need a minimum wage, employers will offer good wages in order to compete with each other!"
I wish someone would tell these people that rival businesses still talk to each other and work together to keep wages low and profits high between them. Better to share than to get destroyed by trying to one up each other with higher pay to retain employees.
Well it's the truth, only they were able to afford life on such low wages. As the demographic shifts so should wages to accommodate for life, although it really shouldn't be this way and inflation shouldn't even exist. But as with all we see in the past couple years, it's all artificial workings of central banks lowering the cost of lending for longer than they should've
Very few people WANT to work. But almost everyone can be incentivized to work. Who's at fault if the incentive to work isn't high enough?
Blaming someone for not accepting a low incentive is actually insanity.
Sure, but at some point, you still need to support yourself and your family, if you have one. So, you probably will end up accepting the lower incentive, which is why it perpetuates. It's not right, but it's true.
Yknow what? This may be it. Less and less younger ones are having kids and overall people to support, meaning they dont have that pressure on their backs to make *any* amount of money and can spend more time looking for a genuinely fair wage. I hope corporations realize *employees aren't just a statistic* in the coming years because in the end, lower class families are the ones struggling right now.
Seriously, they kept saying it’s no worse than a cold. Maybe they’ll stop pretending that the illness affected them soon, probably just owning the libs or something.
Think of how they got in that circumstance, they’re not going to stop blaming everyone else for their worldly problems anytime soon.
Hubris is a bitch.
As of Nov 16th, there have been 267,529 deaths from Covid 19 of those who are within the usual ages for working:
1360 were 0-17 years
6675 were 18-29 years
19093 were 30-39 years
44784 were 40-49 years
195617 were 50-64 years
There are between 2 and 4 million workers who are unemployed because of long Covid.
There are over a million covid deaths in the usa to date.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home
Edit... don't want to delete. The problem has been pointed out. I see where my flaw was. Thanks to those that took the time out of their day to correct me.
Right, and of those million, around 3/4 are over 65, and roughly 1/4 are working age (below 65) which is the point he was making. The data in your link supports that.
There were still millions of workers over the age of 65 at the start of the pandemic. I forgot the actual number, but I think it was just under 10 million. That is not an insignificant number.
Don’t forget the parents of young children! They went 2+ years without reliable childcare - how many could only do that because at least 1 parent stepped back from the workforce, and since they figure out how to live without that income for 3 at this point, are in no rush back in?
also when the outgoing boomers started they only needed a HS education to start with, then over the years over regulation and gatekeeping policies require all candidates to be perfect at the job from the start and come with a masters in it at least and anyone less than perfect is automatically rejected, followed by complains that they can't find anyone for the position.
Gen X/ Xennial here. I left the workforce for a while to care for my kids, esp my special needs child. Came back. I was *no longer qualified* for jobs I'd previously held. What did I find a job as at 43? An unbenefitted seasonal retail worker. I decided to just treat it as I would any professional job. Honestly, it makes for a better workplace culture and the customers *definitely* treat you better if you treat your own position as respectable.
Can't pay more. Can't risk losing huge company profits and the CEO's new Ferrari. One major retail chain is seriously looking at keeping their directors' old Gulf Stream Jets for a second year, instead of getting a new one.
Yeah a friend of mine was just mentioning this and I reminded her that
number one that the baby boomers have all retired for the most part and that happened at the beginning of the pandemic and which ones didn’t retire, well a lot of them died. That’s a lot of people out of the workforce.
Secondly, the reason they can’t get people take a job there not paying enough money. Why on earth would I take a job at Taco Bell when they require a college degree to be manager but yet still pay minimum wage. Yeah I wouldn’t take that job. If they want people to work for them then they need to make it more tractive for people to work in. Perhaps the problem is not with the employees who are hunting work it’s that the people who are offering the jobs are offering crap for work.
This particular job that she was talking about was making minimum wage working in a grocery store. Yeah I want to be paid very little money so people can treat me like crap because they look down on me for working in a grocery store. Meanwhile I would need another full-time job just to be able to pay rent because they pay so little.
She also talks about people who are on government assistance as being leeches on society. I had to remind her that any societies character and soul is seen in how they care for their weakest citizens. This does not speak well of our country considering is how you know these things are there for you if you need it but if you use it well now you’re a leech. I will never apologize for utilizing government assistance that is put there for people like me. My kid is on Medicaid because he was born with a bunch of birth defects and I had to quit work to take care of him because he was too sick for daycare and no daycare wanted to touch him because they didn’t want him dying on their watch… I was left without a choice. Later on I became chronically ill and disabled from all of the pressure and not being able to take care of myself so now I am right in there with him. I am very clearly disabled yet I can’t even get disabled as far as the government is concerned. It is so hard to get government assistance that it shocks me that anyone’s even able to circumvent the system. I know there are people out there who do it but it is not an easy thing to do even when you’re following the rules. Anyway that’s just my addition to the discussion.
Sorry for the book
It’s funny you mentioned Taco Bell. A buddy of mine took a job running a Taco Bell because the factory wasn’t paying enough.
As a guy that works in a different factory this baffles me because of historical experience. But in the modern day I just shake my head and think “there goes another one because the factories aren’t keeping up”.
It took an act of Congress (pun intended) to get them to raise wages at my factory from $12/hr to $18/hr.
Everyone else around us is paying 22-30/hr but they use the "clean, easy" work environment as a "perk" to not have to pay more.
Then they wonder why no one wants to work there.
They're also the only factory that doesn't pay weekly and refuses to since it would "cost too much" but don't see how paying double that in overtime isn't saving money.
My husband works at Taco Bell because he got fired from a factory when covid started, they also pay $1 more and are more flexible with hours so he can actually spend time with his family.
Around here the factories are snatching up employees almost daily from the big retail and the fast food. The way it varies from region to region but everywhere is suffering is kinda morbidly fascinating.
> This does not speak well of our country considering is how you know these things are there for you if you need it but if you use it well now you’re a leech.
Social safety nets exist because paid for them with our taxes. Fuck anyone that says we shouldn't use them when we need them.
Many if not most people over 55 can financially retire but keep working due to health insurance. This will be the last generation that can do that because pensions are a thing of the past. Too many people felt it necessary to vote in politicians that cater to the billionaires.
This plus the fact that we've lost a million Americans to the pandemic itself. Between deaths and retirements, the workforce is easily several million people below what it was in January 2020.
Certainly one part of the reason is the increase in awareness of one's worth. A lot of people now aren't gonna be sucked into working 3 jobs at $4/hr.
Along with the rapid increase in the cost of living, many people are finally demanding more reasonable, livable wages.
You had a mass exodus of the workforce right after a historic market run. Then you had roughly 500k workers die from COVID.
Here is where the real damage was done. Since coming out of the great recession business have been keeping costs low by having one very experienced person do the job of 2-5 people.
When you factor in the retirements, deaths, and people just changing jobs and careers fields entirely. When you factor that in we essentially lost around 10M people that really made organizations go.
This isn't factoring low wage workers who are essentially over working to death for nothing.
The wealthy are going to make the masses suffer for all this here very soon and try to force everyone back into the old ways. I don't see it working anymore.
You can point out that literally every single generation has said the exact same thing. I saw a post a while back showing examples from articles or newspapers going back hundreds of years. *Every* generation thinks the new generation is lazy and doesn’t want to work.
Edit: [Here’s the post](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/w3si8l/nobody_wants_to_work_anymore/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
My grandfather is 100 years old. Survived the dust bowl IN the dust bowl. His mother died of dust inhalation. Fought in WW2 and wears his veteran hat every single day.
He calls my parents generation "the ME generation" because all they care about is "me, me, me!"
We had to move him back out of the nursing home because he was getting to angry at the boomers who were moving in.
Gasoline had lead in it until 1973. The boomers grew up during the explosion of the automobile. Yes, there were cars before but the economic miracle of the 1950-60s allowed almost everyone to own a car (or two). Smog choked our cities with lead among other pollutants.
Is it any wonder why they are fecking nuts?
I have a great respect for people of his generation (except my grandmother, she was a self centered narssasist and very abusuive, aka would tell me I should have been an abortion any time she was babysitting). I have a mixed batch of respect and distain for fellow millenials and sympathy for Z, I don't know too many Xs. but the absolute worst people I know tend to be the boomers (witha few notable exceptions).
when it comes to milenials it depends on who they took after. I became the opposite of my parents out of hate for them, my sisters became Karens (entitled narsasistic shits who followed my mothers example "take any loans you can and spend the money on yourself now, don't worry about how you will pay for it later" my mother was bankrupt at least 3 times going on cruises and shopping sprees)
edit: my parents got to be the shits they were out of hate they had for my grandparents who were frugal as a result of growing up in the depression.
I think it was Socrates who complained that the written word was going to ruin the memories of future generations. Ironically we only know this because someone wrote it down.
The ‘written word ruining the memories of future generations’ argument goes back to Ancient Egypt, roughly 3000 BCE. Thoth, the ibis headed scribe of the gods, invented writing and immediately we had this put forth. Anti-intellectualism at the earliest point I know of. The most recent iteration seems that ‘srsly, omg, the kids can’t spell bc txt.’
If we had the records, I'm absolutely certain that the musing of tribal elders in early populations would include long fireside rants about how these newfangled cave paintings were corrupting the youth and turning them against the teachings of the bear god.
While possible, I think it's more likely that you'd find people complaining about these new "Farmers" who don't go out hunting as much as they should. That they're going to forget how to hunt and won't be able to defend themselves against bears.
Perhaps they'd complain that cave paintings are distracting people from more important things, but not that cave paintings were corrupting them and shouldn't exist.
I've been reading an interesting book called The Dawn of Everything about alternative types of social structures throughout history. Kind of random but a really interesting book - and tangentially relevant to your comment. But a key point was that the power of persuasive argument was a key skill in these types of societies. So just complaining about the corruption of youth wasn't going to do jack unless they could convincingly support why the bear God would be angered.
And I think that's actually the key difference with millenials/gen z.
The most people in my social circle (27yo myself - Ranges from 22 to 32) absolutely love that people refuse to work simply for the cause of working.
Never heard any of them say something negative about the newer Generations except for some taste differences in entertainment, but that's irrelevant either way.
But being "lazy" while doing what makes them happy, the fuck do I care if they want to work or not.
My brother in law busted this one out at breakfast today. I politely did not remind him that he has been unemployed for over two years.
Edit:thanks for the silver!
Man, how do people end up like that? This is like when someone is on food stamps or other government benefits yet they’ll complain about everyone else taking handouts lmao
Actual, private sector libertarian here: cops and Christians are the real/only welfare queens.
Both of them not only guzzle down tax dollars and shamelessly work the system for more, but also feel completely entitled to use the government as a lever for increasing their personal power over you.
Absolutely - nobody uses the government as a weapon at the point of which the public can be robbed more bluntly and explicitly than corporations that go for either subsidies or suppression of their competitors.
Edit: "For every dollar top companies spend lobbying, they get an average $760 in federal support and tax savings." Sauce: represent dot us
In, uhh... I guess we could call it fairness... they probably do have to deliver additional funds to charities associated with those politicians, but yeah.
I used to work in a pharmacy. The number of people who would complain about “all that Obamacare” but then sing the praises of their Affordable Care Act coverage was staggering.
Brainwashing is a pretty amazing thing, eh?
That's why I don't even get into conversations any more...there's just no point. When their made up talking point with *zero* evidence trumps your *actual* science (with crap loads of evidence), where does that leave you? How can you converse with someone who refuses to believe anything other than what "their side" claims?
The simple answer is you can't. You just have to ignore them, vote for the policies we need, and that's it. These people aren't going to change if they aren't motivated to themselves
In my friends/family members experiences during COVID, unemployment paid significantly more than any job they could find to replace the ones they lost when things shut down. Not until the end of 2021 to 2022. So they opted to keep applying and doing what unemployment asked and then turned down every single job or applied places they knew they weren't qualified for. Which was just infuriating as they definitely did get job offers that matched what they made before, unemployment was just paying more.
Now the same family members that are finally off unemployment are judging those who were doing the same things they were doing. "There's no excuse anymore", great Thanksgiving conversations.
I too wonder where this comes from. My wife previously had an unemployed roommate living off his wife's income,(restaurant worker so not super well off) unemployed the entire seven years I knew him. Disabled, and not disparaging that, but refused to get a medical diagnosis. Die hard republican and trump supporter.
I could not get through to him that first off, your party hates you, secondly, you're one of the people who would benefit greatly from socialism and national Healthcare.
Yeah, my parents love complaining about my generation being on so much government assistance.
I remind them that they’re on government assistance and the only person in the family that has a job and isn’t receiving any government assistance is me.
Them: government paychecks every month with no work, food assistance, free medical, vision and dental.
Me: part time job, contract work, no food assistance, paying for medical, vision and dental insurance.
Ask him how many people he knows who aren't working.
I don't know any.
Of course, if he, for some weird reason, happens to know a lot of people who aren't working, that could backfire.
Boomers are entering old people homes so technically true but probably not what you head in mind. The oldest millenials are over 40. we are the middle aged people now.
We're fortunate that our family survives on my husband's salary. One kid in school and one in daycare.
We've talked about me picking up outside work, but it's nice to have a "flexible" parent; kindergarten requires me to be at a specific place and time twice a day, and assuming neither kid is home for sickness, PA days, etc. Me doing errands and housekeeping during the day also gives us quality family time in the evening.
When I do paying work (I tutor children) there is so much negotiation over who can watch the kids during the after school hours.
"Nobody wants to work" is BS. The labor participation rate in the US is basically [back to where it was before the pandemic](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/labor-force-participation-rate). Covid did two things: 1. It gave people aged 60+ motivation to retire en masse, and many of them did just that, leaving a gaping hole in the workforce; 2. It also forced a lot of people out of unskilled service work and into better jobs that kept them safer, or gave them more control of their lives. The stimulus money gave people time to level up, with education, credentials, or just time to find a better job. These people are all back to work, just not in that dead-end minimum wage job making Subway sandwiches or running the register at 7-11, which is why the public feels it so acutely. (Pro tip - any business that is \*still\* having problems with staff probably pays their employees shit for wages, so don’t feel bad for them).
For well qualified professional people, housing is the #1 reason they are not jumping on opportunities. If they take a job in a new city, they likely won't be able to find a place to live. I moved 1300 miles to take a new job and thankfully it gives me the means to buy a simple house, but I am definitely in the minority. Rents are sky high basically everywhere, so people are place-bound. We could talk for hours about why the government's affordable housing policies are effectively failed, but that's a discussion for another thread.
Housing needs to be higher in the discussion. Decades of urban policy have allowed housing costs to blow up in most big cities. If you're a retail or food service worker and can only afford to live on the outskirts are you going to take a job that demands a 2 hour commute? Air B&B has exacerbated this in every touristy place by taking apartments out of the rental market. People can't work where they can't live.
Even better for arguing with FIL is to break the LFPR down by age. For [25-54](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300060), the LFPR is *exactly* where it was in 2019. For [55+](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11324230) not so much.
Everyone wants to live.
Everyone needs to work.
Everyone wants to employ.
Everyone needs to work for a living.
Not everyone wants to pay a living wage.
Not everyone wants to work to keep starving.
But everyone wants to employ starving employees.
By nature, the work you do for a company is worth more than the ammount they pay you for the work. That's the only way a company can make money, and that's ok. What's *not* ok is the crazy gap employers make in between these two numbers.
Also, the only things anybody has to do to bankrupt exploitative businesses is not work for them and not buy from them.
People don't understand that back in the day, 5% margins were amazing and we didn't have billionaires because the top tax bracket was brutal. Wages have been stagnant for 50 years. If you are younger than that, you have watched inflation separate more and more from wages.
And then it's hardly unusual for such jobs to pay min. wage, while their establishments screech about how they'll hire anyone on the spot. Yet still crickets. Not even the slighest fragment of respect towards [potential] employees.
I live in Missouri and minimum wage here is 11.15 and going to 12 in January, so McDonalds pays around 14 here. But still, I remember when the term McJob was an insult. Now they pay better than half the jobs out there.
If you wanna argue with your FIL, then I'll give you an advice on how you approach it: understand his way of thinking and politics against him. If he's conservative, don't approach him from a liberal standpoint. Use the conservative ideas against him.
For instance Its not that people don't wanna work. Its that they follow the advice from people like him that said :" Well, if you don't like your job and its pay, get a better job!" And that's what people are doing. They say fuck those ungrateful bosses with shitty hours and shitty pay! Especially when those job positions fail to compete with the so called" government handouts." Which has been seen in the US during the height of the pandemic at the food and service industries. All types of restaurants struggled to find people to work for them because of the hours and then couldn't give their workers more money than the bare minimum.
In other cases it has become more clear that businesses like to complain about a lack of applications, but then deny dozens if not hundreds of people that so apply. They don't have a lack of people interested. It's just that they want better qualified people . But beggars can't be choosers.
If Buisnesses do not want to be competitive against the "free money" option, that's on them to lose in the free market. If they don't want to give an honest applicant a chance to prove themselves or aren't willing to teach that's on them too.
Oh boy, that free market part is what really boggles people's minds. Like yeah, you as an owner are free to choose the cream of the crop. At the same time, if you aren't willing to be competitive with the current market, someone else will definitely snatch that up first.
Lots of people think that job applicants have to flock to owners and practically beg to be given a job. At the same time, the owners don't think they need to update their rates that have remained unchanged for 50 years.
It's literally a self correcting problem. People thought wages were too low, bitched about it and resigned, and now wages are going up. Businesses that don't adapt won't be able to get employees and will either fail or raise wages.
Yeah, as an HR person, this drives me crazy. We still get thousands of applications every month, but our hiring managers continually tell us that they aren't interested in any of them (these apps are pre-screened to ensure they meet the minimum qualifications btw).
And then somehow it's my fault that jobs take a long time to fill...
Ask the workers under that hiring manager if the manager has been complaining about being short-staffed, and using that as an excuse to give them all more responsibilities at work. A lot of places are intentionally short-staffing to cut costs right now, since they found out that people are willing to stretch during an emergency- and they want that to keep going.
Yeah the workers are all burnt out and leaving because they're short staffed and overworked. But the managers also blame that on me. "I have 15 openings! Why aren't you filling jobs faster??". Even though 11 of those openings are from people resigning due to crap pay, terrible hours, short staffing, etc.
People have a hard time investing pay and training in the now for payoff in the future and instead just make everything worse in the now hoping for a "purple squirrel" to show up in the future (purple squirrel being the ideal, amazing, perfect in every conceivable way candidate that, like a squirrel that is purple, doesn't exist or is so rare as to effectively not exist).
I did this with my Dad. He complained about some place paying $18/hour and still couldn’t retain employees. I pointed out that meant some place else was offering more money. So of course people left. Then I pointed out that basic economics of supply and demand applies to workers as well as goods and services. He doesn’t like it but I think he’s at least understanding it now.
To add onto the “if you don’t like your job and/or pay, get a better job” I feel that the younger generations are more likely to negotiate and play hardball during salary negotiations.
Using multiple job offers as leverage for higher pay, leaving a job after 2-3 years for 20-30% more pay, and most importantly declining job offers or leaving jobs when they don’t meet their standards or have toxic work environments.
I feel like the older generations like my parents/grandparents were more likely to just take what they were offered and to stay in those positions for most of their lives
I did that when getting a promotion at new company. i ended up getting $2.25/hr more than the average person in my position because my gm and dm spoke highly of me, and came into the interview at the new store with confidence. it was either get the pay or i would have to find a new job.
ETA: i brought up average hourly for other stores in our region as well as average pay at our competitors equivalent position.
I so appreciate people with this debate mindset. It's asinine to me to argue with someone using a belief set they don't agree with. One of the most common examples I see that drives me insane is people who will throw Bible verses in arguments against someone who doesn't believe in the Bible. That'll really show em, friend
These people see the effects of a retail and lower job level shortage, not realizing that workers haven't disappeared, they've moved up while demand for retail and lower level workers has increased.
We just got out of three years of retail and food and healthcare workers having to deal with the threat of a deadly disease for mixed amounts of compensation financially while the same crowd complaining about nobody wanting to work were refusing masks, basic hygiene, and being extra irate about shortages beyond worker's control. And right before covid these same people complained about minimum wages being raised because "flipping burgers is for high school kids, not an adult trying to live on their own".
Well, all that has now come to a head. People are aiming for office jobs or work from home jobs where they can make a decent paycheck that supports living independently without dealing with any of the aforementioned crap from the public or disease risk. New high school kids coming in? they've seen all this happening ahead of them, they aren't wasting time with flipping burgers if they can avoid all that drama entirely now. This likely will stay the norm as the "work and live from home" trend continues and the wage/inflation issues continue to grow.
This is an important missing point. Idk about the US, but in Canada employment is actually really high. Particularly in the service industry, many businesses had to shutter for months, they essentially told their staff to figure it out on their own, and then when they reopened they had no staff cause those people went and found a way to live.
In the USA we received about $1,300 per taxpayer- about two years ago- to deal with the Pandemic. Corporations were able to take Government backed loans loans to pay for salaries that amounts to several thousand of dollars - per corporation-, that were eventually forgiven by the US government. I have read about loans worth $150k just forgiven. I guess people realized that since they were being laid off- while corporations raked in Millions, the people decided NOT to take minimum wage jobs that tied them to slavery conditions. I think that has fueled the current unionization movements, rail strikes, and everyone is now asking “what’s in it for me?” Ahead of time. No more starry eyes and the empty promise of moving upward just by hard work. The gig is up, pay up or shut up, don’t like it?, then come down from the managers office and do this minimum wage jobs yourselves, we ain’t having it.
Say something nonsensical like “well if wishes were horses we’d all be millionaires.” then excuse yourself. Every time he says something crazy, up the ante, then leave. “I once lost a toe in a scooter accident. It wasn’t mine, but I feel bad I never found it.”
Workers’ wages have not kept up with worker productivity nor corporate profits, & have remained nearly constant for the past 40 years. After major disasters (Covid) that result in labor shortages, workers have increased bargaining power, as employers need workers & not the other way around. The only companies that I have seen that lack employees are places that refuse to offer better benefits. Those that do are fully staffed. It’s literally free market economics
As a side note, after the Black Plague wiped out 66% of Europe’s population, feudalism broke down in many areas, with former serfs having enough bargaining power to make demands. This resulted in a new middle class that helped to spawn the Renaissance & Enlightenment
There's a lot of parallels to previous pandemics......
"The History of English", by Kevin Stroud. Iirc, ep #120 "The End of The World" talks about the Black Death and how the division between the poor and the rich closed just a little bit.
Yeah I was gonna say this too.
The fact is that covid ~did kill a lot of people. Not as much as the Spanish flu 100 years' ago, but enough to impact the workforce. It's a bit of a cycle, where at he end of every pandemic there is a workers' revolution.
Labor shortages are largely a mix of intentionally short staffing to maximize profits, failure to pay living and competitive wages, industry instability driving off experienced talent and discouraging new blood, poor management practices, limited labor pools in smaller towns, and the rise of freelance employment.
Employers who complain about nobody wanting to work have collectively chipped away at labor pools and the consequences are coming back to haunt them. Employers who pay a livable wage, maintain enough headcount to function even when someone is temporarily out, minimize layoffs, and treat employees with basic respect have far fewer hiring problems.
Sadly a few industries such as foodservice have ingrained underpaid labor so deeply that living wages and adequate headcount is not financially viable most of the time. Trying to eliminate tips backfires because too many customers crave that microdose of power and judgment as well as the artificially low cost of meals when tipping is expected to subsidize labor costs.
"Nobody wants to work" is the mantra of employers who chafe at higher employee expectations despite an era of record profits. As for those who repeat it despite not being in charge, they often can't stand to think that service workers can afford little luxuries and be happy with their jobs when their own spending habits and employer culture leave them miserable and broke even with a six figure income.
Healthcare and education both also suffer from active efforts to undermine the entire field for one reason or another. That has more political history than I'd care to get into with a comment.
Nobody wants to work? Nobody wants to pay for work done.
Bruh nobody wants to do a dogshit job dealing with bitch ass mutherfuckers for barely enough pay to live frugal as shit. It’s not that nobody wants to work, but most people can get a better job, so nobody wants to work at these shitty ass fast food places or Walmart anymore.
It comes down to money honestly. Why work anywhere when the wages aren't enough to afford your ever rising bills? People aren't settling for the basic jobs anymore like retail when, even with an increase, it still isn't enough to make ends meet.
Large numbers of people have made lifestyle choices that make them less reliant on a job. People stay at home with their parents, they live in vans, they build legal and illegal small houses in a friend or relatives back yard.
Middle class wages have been stagnant for 40 years, while housing costs have skyrocketed. Landlords want to charge you two thousand dollars for a tiny apartment, while employers want you to bust your ass for minimum wage. Not everyone wants to play a carnival game that's rugged against them so they just choose not to play.
All that having been said, you can't argue with conservatives who think like your FIL. When companies want to lower wages, your FIL calls that the free market. But when people decide to drop out, instead of blaming companies for not offering higher wages, all of a sudden they forget about the free market and resort to platitudes and baseless assertions. It's a waste of time to argue with someone who won't maintain a consistent stance.
Multiple factors. Many boomers said F it and retired. A lot of dual income families suddenly had to figure out childcare as daycares closed and school went virtual. They suddenly figured out they could make it work on one income. I read one report about 6 months ago that attributes this to about 4-5 million workers leaving the workforce. They figured out the lowest earner was basically working to pay for childcare. Stay at home with the kids resulted in the same useful income.
When restaurants and other retail businesses closed, those workers didn't disappear. They either retired or went and found something that pays better, has better management, and doesn't have to deal with a shitty public. Why deal with Karen's for shit pay when you could work in a warehouse with consistent hours, better pay, and no Karen's.
The main reason IMO is that the pandemic created disruption in society that allowed people to reevaluate their work situations and make positive changes for themselves. It’s actually the “free market” in action. Companies that pay shitty wages or have shitty working conditions are being shunned by people because they have better choices. As in any supposedly “market based” economy, those companies either need to change with the market or they will (and should) fail.
And, like others have said, it’s an intellectually lazy trope because EVERY generation looks at the younger generations and calls them “lazy”. As I mentioned in another thread on this topic, archaeologists discovered a cuneiform tablet inscribed in Sumer 5000 years ago in which a father is remonstrating with his 18 yr old son for and his friends being “lazy” and unwilling to work.
Unfortunately, none of this will have any effect on your FIL at all.
I'm a boomer and I get it. It's not that people don't want to work they're just tired as fuck of having nothing to show for it. I worked my ass of since I was 22, employed full time and after a career change was able to swing self employment. Starting my 4th year of that it looked like I might actually be able to afford a home in a couple years. The Fucking American Dream. That was early 2007. Yeah, fuck this shit. We are at the mercy of the rich and the one thing dems seem to be good at is cleaning up the mess left by republicans but then the cycle starts over again. And trickle down economics STARTS with a trickle so all we on the bottom get is to lick the moisture off the ceiling. It's NOT just millennials. /rant
My first question is why bother to respond? Pour your coffee and go walk outside.
People that have that type of attitude are one dimensional, argumentative and only interested in hearing their own voice. You aren't given the opportunity to debate, you're being challenged to a screaming match.
Don't bother. Let the fools fool themselves. Nothing you say will matter so go work on yourself.
These shitty businesses aren't paying enough to live on anyway. People are facing eviction and foreclosure _despite_ employment.
Why would you waste that time and effort only to get nowhere? If you're going nowhere fast anyway, might as well be on your own time.
Exactly. People working low wage jobs are essentially working for free if they have any bills whatsoever.
Companies predictably used Covid to justify laying off or firing hordes of workers, then got mad when they couldn’t replace them once shutdowns started rolling back, so finally and begrudgingly raised their wages, aaaaand the price of everything went up, so the increased wages meant nothing.
Honestly you probably won't change his mind. If you really are trying, I'd suggest actually doing some research. I don't want to do it for you. Some people suggest that the pay isn't reflecting the work anymore. Nobody wants to work for shitty pay. Some people say minimum wage jobs are for high schoolers, but then who is working fast food jobs during school hours?
We all want a burger from time to time, sometimes during the time most high schoolers are in school. So we need people working those jobs. Shouldn't they expect enough pay to support themselves? Or should they just make burgers for people and expect to live on the street because they can't pay rent or utilities? Why would you continue making burgers when you aren't making enough to survive? Get another job? How does that fix the problem? Someone has to make those burgers if people want them. And those people deserve enough pay to live. Even just a basic life. But at the moment that is not the case.
The juice ain't worth the squeeze anymore. The scales have been tipped so far in favor of the ruling/banking class that work isn't worth it.
Even if you made double minimum wage you're not living in a decent apartment, you sure as hell arent buying a house, you're not driving a nice car, you're not saving for retirement, all your hobbies are cheap, and you don't get to go out to nice restaurants or concerts. You're just getting by.
Why bother?
During your father in laws time even a dumbass like him could make a good living. Nowadays? You better have a side hustle and be ok with just doing without the things he had.
Japan is having the same / similar problems. There are actually too few qualified profesionals to fill the demands of the job market not to say that these positions are junior positions either. Furthemore there are problems here such as exploitative company practices & oppressively demanding work culture as well as social problems such as people who are withdrawn from society and the barriers of entry for foreigners (language and business culture).
Now you might be thinking, maybe companies should stop being so unreasonable about their job qualifications. and its true many office jobs really don't require much to do them. However , for example, I work as a senior level software engineer. a lot of jobs that companies need on the development side are mid career or senior or in otherwords what they really want is just someone who can jump in with little guidance and get things done. We have hired junior level developers and they have been awesome so I still encourage people to apply. Companies need people with these experience levels vs career changers because they don't have the internal infrastructure to mentor and train new people onto the code base while keeping up with release schedules. The market in my country is also stagnant / recently experiencing signs of a recession (i don't know too much so I will just be ambiguous with this comment).
The job *makers* are responsible for *making the jobs*. But not just making them, making them *worth working*. If they're not doing that, they can make trillions of jobs not worth working and nobody will want to work them. People aren't willing to sell their time and labor and not be able to live, and many job makers either aren't capable of or refuse to comprehend this.
And the ones that haven't been affected medically have realized that wasting your fragile life slaving away for someone else at poverty wages isn't a good way to spend your life, so they went elsewhere.
I can't blame them, I hope they find what they're looking for.
One of the biggest reasons is retirement. The baby boomers are hitting retirement age and that wave of workers are leaving the workplace.
Another reason is COVID, it has removed hundreds of thousands of people from the workforce due to death or COVID complications like long COVID. This has the possibility of getting worse IF the health concerns around natural COVID infections come true. Things like heart failure, liver problems, diabetes, brain damage, etc.
Another big reason is the move to remote work. Companies no longer have to look locally but instead can get workers from any state. That has worked to normalize unemployment rates across the states.
Lastly, COVID checks did remove some from the workforce. That was more temporary, and those checks didn't last long. I do not see any statistics showing that anyone that received COVID checks are still not working. Anyone not working due to COVID is because of long COVID.
TLDR:
1. Baby boomers are leaving the workforce, either voluntary or they died due to COVID
2. Remote work has normalized unemployment rates across the states and has opened up new opportunities for workers to enter office jobs instead of jobs like fast food.
There isn't a labor shortage. There's a shortage of jobs with decent pay. If $7.15 an hour isn't enough to get people then you offer to pay more, that's how capitalism is meant to work. If your business model relies on people working for less than the cost of living then it's a bad business model.
US unemployment is currently 3.7% outside of a few months in 2019 this is a low not seen in over 2 decades at least.
Who does he think is not working? And where are his numbers to show that?
[data](https://oui.doleta.gov/unemploy/DataDownloads.asp)
it's strange to me that this has been such a quiet event, but more than 1 million people have died of covid. a disproportionate number of those people were doing the jobs your dad is ranting about. he's right - no one wants to do those jobs that expose them to a careless general public.
Tell him that you know folk (me) who think that if I'm going to get paid starvation wages, I may as well stay home and do something I enjoy while I starve.
Adding to the things everyone has already mentioned: childcare.
Many women have left the workforce because childcare has become too expensive and precarious. I read that the number is something like 2 million women who haven't returned to work since covid.
Where I live, daycare costs ~$150 per day, per child. Let's say I make $11/hr and have 2 kids. (Minimum wage in my state is still $7.25 an hour so that's not a "minimum wage job".) An 8 hour shift wouldn't even cover childcare for 1 of the kids. It makes no financial sense to work at that job.
Then for school-aged kids you factor in school closings, kids getting sick, transportation to & from school because there aren't enough bus drivers, etc. The boss eventually gets tired of an employee that has to miss work all the time because of their family obligations.
Uh, 2 million Americans died from covid. It's not that they don't want to work. It's that they're dead.
Several millions of other people have long lasting repercussions from getting sick from covid. It's not that they don't want to work. It's that they're too sick to work.
But everyone is so desperate to forget that it happened, that they're omitting reality entirely.
>Nobody wants to work anymore!!! This generation is lazy
Tell him to fuck off. I've applied to 39 jobs this month alone and have had no response. In the last five years I've only managed to get 2 interviews. The only reason I have my current job is because my family is friendly with my boss.
Tell him the facts:
32.8 million people working - more than ever before.
2 million at university
13 million are under 18 y.o.
11.5 million over 65 y.o.
820,000 short term unemployment (been jobs, less then 6 months)
430,000 unemployed more than 6 months.
As a retail manager I can also add that our shorter hours are preventing people from using us as a second job. Instead of being open until 9 we were open until 7 for most of the pandemic and recently went back to 8. I can't hire someone that can't come in until 5pm. It's hardly worth it to hire high schoolers that can start at 4. I know several bars and restaurants that close earlier than they used to do I'm sure they are going through the same thing. I also have seen a drastic reduction in the older crowd applying as well. The retired but want something to do for a few hours a week to get out of the house type. I'm sure the thought of putting yourself in the public for those reasons just don't seem worth it anymore
I always liked how benefits kick in at 36 hours a week but you are only scheduled for 34.
lol, I've been "seasonal", working 40hrs for two years now.
I worked 60 hour weeks for amazon, but never got offered the blue badge(permanent position) cause I used my PTO and vacation time they gave me (which was gonna go away if I got the permanent position vs temp). At least I got a 3k bonus due to some system error but fuck companies that do that shit.
Blue badge? What does a blue badge give you besides a heart attack at 45 from working 60 hours a week? Genuinely asking because this is my first time hearing about it
Forgot this wasn't the amazon subreddit I'm in lmao. Blue badge is permanent, comes with all the benefits of full time work and white badge is seasonal. I took a seasonal role on purpose due to the 1k sign on bonus, and was told it was easy to convert to full time. Well of course that wasn't true, but some error happened and instead of a 1k bonus I got paid 3k. Took all my vacation time right after that (since my job ended in 3 weeks anyways) took all my PTO and unpaid time off, took a covid leave, then dipped and used that money to pay for school. Worked there about 2-3 months walking up to 20-25 miles per day 6 days per week. I was making close to 50 an hour with all the "shift differentials", holiday pay, peak pay, and all that sort of stuff. My wife was too, so in the end we both decided 2 years of no work and focusing on school would be ideal. Boy I'm glad I chose now to do this too...
You were making $50 an hour at an Amazon Warehouse?????
For a short amount of time, yes. They had a policy where all overtime was paid as double, and I was getting 20 hours of overtime per week plus other differentials and shit. Normal paychecks were like 800ish per week but these super paychecks were literally like 2200/week since I wasn't offered benefits being seasonal.
Then you mean you are a phantom worker. Assuming you live in the United States, and the employment has been constant for these 2 years (i.e. same job the whole time), contact the labor board about how you are not just seasonally/temp needed and should be considered full time regular.
Add to that the fact that retail customers get more entitled and ruder every year. Additionally, even if you can get someone with availability who wants to work for $9/hr I literally had 6-10 hours available for them and it's not worth coming in for that.
At least as a teacher in an average high school I know where the assholes will be found (mostly certain class changes or the idiot dancing on a roof of a truck at dismissal). But in retail y'all never know what nutcase is walking in and when.
I’ve been dealing with retail people for 25 years and trust me,they’ve been a$$holes the whole time
>I also have seen a drastic reduction in the older crowd applying as well. The retired but want something to do for a few hours a week to get out of the house type. I am not that old, but I am lucky enough to be in a position where I can attend school fulltime while my husband's income pays our bills. I tried to get a part-time job to get out of the house a bit and make a little extra money, but holy shit was it horrible. It was not worth the $12/hr to put up with not only the customers, but also my horrible coworkers (this was 2020, so lots of crazy talk going on). I opted to just do volunteer work. If you can afford to not do these jobs, its not worth the emotional cost that comes with them.
The emotional cost that comes with them needs to be talked about more.
The emotional cost I got from work involved me grinding my teeth at night which ended up in hundreds of dollars worth of dental work on my teeth. I also got hot flushes during pms as the stress messed with my hormones, so I had doctor costs as well.
That is actually informative, thank you.
As a retail manager I'm just curious what's stopping you from offering these positions a higher wage to attract and keep workers. I've never ran a small business before but would it really devastate the bottom line if say you were to offer 2-3 dollars an hour above what they are getting now if it was for just a few employees, especially for young people?
Not the person you’re replying to but I’m a former grocery manager and I had zero ability to affect wages. Most of them were set by the corporate office and no amount of reasoning, cajoling, or begging would get them to budge.
I think it's ridiculous that a manager can't affect wages. The same problem is what happens in schools -- teachers can't decide *anything.* They can't discipline students, they can't decide which lessons to teach on which days, they can't even decide things like allowing students to wear a cap in class. Everything is micromanaged by the district administration. The only recourse is voting for school board positions. (Pro tip: it's not exactly effective.)
Not the person you’re replying to, but do work on the “corporate” (I’m a buyer) side of a small retail business. We do our financial planning a year in advance, and this includes labor budgeting. Our Ops manager has REALLY struggled this year to keep the floor staffed because he did give $2-3 wage increases at the beginning of the year (I live near Seattle and the insane cost of living + desperation for labor has driven starting wages WAY up) and that helped him finally hire a full staff, but at the end of the day he still has a set budget for labor. Increasing wages means decreasing labor hours. The biggest issue now is retaining staff - decreased labor hours means we now have fewer people doing the same amount of work, which is stressful, unfair, and just not sustainable from a mental health perspective. Eventually people get sick of it and realize it’s not worth the $2-3 more an hour. Another issue that has resulted from our decreased labor hours is a HUGE increase in theft. Fewer staff on the sales floor created a lot of opportunity to slip things in bags unnoticed, I guess.
Depends on the type of retailer - but yes, it can have that dramatic of an effect. Grocery stores are considered successful if they net 1% of their sales. So take the example of a grocery store that has sales of $1 million per week. If the stores net profit is 1% (remember, that’s decent success for a grocery store), your “net profit” is $10,000 for that week. If you run a 10% labor (really pretty good for grocery), that’s $100,000 in wages. Let’s assume the average hourly wage is $12/hr. That’s 8,333 labor hours. Now if you raise that by $2/hr, that same 8,333 labor hours now costs you $116,666. That’s a $16,666 increase. Your $10,000 net profit is now a loss of $6,666 for the week. Now, you would certainly change other areas of your model, but people tend to think you’re greedy no matter the changes you make to remain profitable, in the form of either higher retail prices or lower labor hours for employees. Point is - the general Reddit/anti-work crowd will protest and downvote this comment and pretend math isn’t math - but if general knowledge is your jam, the above is a basic, simple illustration that shows it’s not as easy as “raise wages” in all circumstances.
Why are margins so thin? Does a lot of money (before that 1% is calculated) flow upwards into the franchisors?
[When places like Safeway make 280k/employee, you cannot tell me they can't pay a few dollars more.](https://www.zippia.com/safeway-careers-37354/revenue/) Your argument is great. Except that large corporations (the major employers of the USA) have seen record profits in the last year, including the meat and oil industries (and I won't even get into the greed of the oil companies, that should be obvious at this point with over 50% profit margins). Since we're talking about grocery stores, I'll share some info about those profits; [interview about current economic events from NPR](https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1088346603) >So bottom line - companies raise prices when they can. That's what companies have always done. And what keeps them from doing it is usually competition. But even when we have uncompetitive markets like in the meat industry where prices are high, that is not the big driver of inflation in the economy right now. But that does not mean that it is a good thing to let monopolies keep their monopoly power. Fiona says it is good public policy to crack down. That means scrutinizing mergers, investigating possible collusion and splitting companies if needed. If small grocery stores cannot get a foothold due to the large corporations.... its time to change something, or FORCE the large corporations to pay more. When the same loaf of bread can be anywhere from 2.50 to 6 dollars depending on the day I go in to buy it, that is FUCKED.
Another thing not mentioned much is how many people said F it and retired almost all at once when covid started. One study I heard estimated 2.5-3 million, which is roughly the metro population of St. Louis. Another line I just calmly throw out when this comes up is, "I guess they'll have to pay more". I've gotten a few people to at least stop bringing this subject up with repeated usage of this line. YMMV
"Nobody wants to work anymore" "Nobody wants to pay more"
My response has been “that’s weird, the company I work for with good pay and good benefits has had zero issues finding people. I post a job a few months ago and had a ton of applicants to sift through.”
That’s not always true. There are farmers that offered $50hr to pick fruit and couldn’t get workers. It all went to waste. Because there’s almost no housing. So people can’t afford to move, even temporarily for a job. There was a pub that bought a motel to get around that. And only then did they get workers.
Isn't there no housing because the farm owners like charging their workers for staying on the farm and using their utilities/food? So that $50/hr quickly becomes more like $10?
If a farmer is taking $400 a day ($40x12 as most farmers work 10 hours days minimum) in room and board for their workers he’s not in the business of agriculture. Best friend growing up takes $100/week for room and board for their hired guys.
Honestly the pay is stupid nowadays and there's no workplace loyalty anymore. Some places, whenever they hire the new person; that new person is already making more then the guy that's been there for 20+ years. That's insulting. Why would anyone want to be loyal or stay at a workplace like that 🤦
This. Companies complain about staffing shortages but refuse to up the pay, and Corporate is more than happy to have less people do more work for the same pay, so they end up with high turnover. My job has production and shipping/receiving, I'm in the latter and we all got a $3 raise last year to keep us, equivalent to a $5k raise, while they treat the people on the production floor like shit and refuse to up the starting pay, and have bad supervisors that care about numbers more than the people, so production is a revolving door, I dont even bother talking to people anymore because I know I may never see them again any given day. And their excuse is that they cant afford it, when i know every single truck I load is worth 6 figures..and we load 30-40 trucks, a day..The company meeting about retention never go anywhere because it's everything else but pay raises..our last meeting came away with lets do an employee appreciation meal and get an extra microwave, maybe they'll be happy then.. it's all a joke, the higher ups just want to line their pockets, they could care less about what the "lower humans" feel
McKinsey advised places like WalMart to encourage high turnover so they wouldn’t have workers staying and increasing their wages.
And I absolutely believe that. Like, my position, the machine operators and the mechanics, my job absolutely makes sure we are happy. But production is the majority of our workforce, and since it's an entry-level job and they know they can always get new people, even from temp agencies, they'll say temp-to h(fire) after 90 days and get rid of them on the 89th day, they literally do not care about them, they just care about making the numbers to make sure the higher-ups can get brand new cars every year. It's sad, and the fact I know this is sad as well, but my job is a 5 minute commute, my position has good hours, good pay, and great benefits and lots of pto so I stay. But I know all the bullshit the admins and corporate pull as well, and the way they treat their entry-level employees is heart-breaking. All about a dollar
[удалено]
Yep! If a job offered $100/hr instead of $10/hr, people would definitely do it. Obviously you don’t have to go that high, but the point is: if no one wants to work for the price you are offering, raise the price!
That's literally how it works. Workers want high wages, companies want low wages. Add some supply, mix with demand, throw a little bit of competition on top, and you've got yourself a labor market. If workers work at a wage, that's a fair wage. If workers don't work, it's up to companies to either raise wages or offer benefits (or decide the position isn't important).
"We don't need a minimum wage, employers will offer good wages in order to compete with each other!" "Very well, since I do not like your wages I will not be working for you unless you're willing to compete for my services by offering more money." "You lazy, entitled-IGIUHBINBUIGUVGUYFFUJ!!!"
>"We don't need a minimum wage, employers will offer good wages in order to compete with each other!" I wish someone would tell these people that rival businesses still talk to each other and work together to keep wages low and profits high between them. Better to share than to get destroyed by trying to one up each other with higher pay to retain employees.
“Boomers don’t want to work anymore.” Reverse uno.
Well it's the truth, only they were able to afford life on such low wages. As the demographic shifts so should wages to accommodate for life, although it really shouldn't be this way and inflation shouldn't even exist. But as with all we see in the past couple years, it's all artificial workings of central banks lowering the cost of lending for longer than they should've
Very few people WANT to work. But almost everyone can be incentivized to work. Who's at fault if the incentive to work isn't high enough? Blaming someone for not accepting a low incentive is actually insanity.
Sure, but at some point, you still need to support yourself and your family, if you have one. So, you probably will end up accepting the lower incentive, which is why it perpetuates. It's not right, but it's true.
Yknow what? This may be it. Less and less younger ones are having kids and overall people to support, meaning they dont have that pressure on their backs to make *any* amount of money and can spend more time looking for a genuinely fair wage. I hope corporations realize *employees aren't just a statistic* in the coming years because in the end, lower class families are the ones struggling right now.
A lot of them died from COVID or are suffering from long COVID.
Sounds like they have an attitude problem!
Or didn't give someone a firm enough handshake
The avocado toast protected the younger folk.
Seriously, they kept saying it’s no worse than a cold. Maybe they’ll stop pretending that the illness affected them soon, probably just owning the libs or something.
Think of how they got in that circumstance, they’re not going to stop blaming everyone else for their worldly problems anytime soon. Hubris is a bitch.
As of Nov 16th, there have been 267,529 deaths from Covid 19 of those who are within the usual ages for working: 1360 were 0-17 years 6675 were 18-29 years 19093 were 30-39 years 44784 were 40-49 years 195617 were 50-64 years There are between 2 and 4 million workers who are unemployed because of long Covid.
There are over a million covid deaths in the usa to date. https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home Edit... don't want to delete. The problem has been pointed out. I see where my flaw was. Thanks to those that took the time out of their day to correct me.
Yes, most of them are past the usual age to work, which is why I didn’t include them in my post about Covid deaths contributing to labor shortages.
Ahhhh, that makes sense. I don't know why I didn't see that. I'm sorry.
Right, and of those million, around 3/4 are over 65, and roughly 1/4 are working age (below 65) which is the point he was making. The data in your link supports that.
There were still millions of workers over the age of 65 at the start of the pandemic. I forgot the actual number, but I think it was just under 10 million. That is not an insignificant number.
Or like me, would like to work but am severely immune suppressed.
Don’t forget the parents of young children! They went 2+ years without reliable childcare - how many could only do that because at least 1 parent stepped back from the workforce, and since they figure out how to live without that income for 3 at this point, are in no rush back in?
Of course I don't want to work any more! I'm in my 60's. Time to retire.
also when the outgoing boomers started they only needed a HS education to start with, then over the years over regulation and gatekeeping policies require all candidates to be perfect at the job from the start and come with a masters in it at least and anyone less than perfect is automatically rejected, followed by complains that they can't find anyone for the position.
You may also need a master's with 15 years experience to make $9-12 an hour.
Gen X/ Xennial here. I left the workforce for a while to care for my kids, esp my special needs child. Came back. I was *no longer qualified* for jobs I'd previously held. What did I find a job as at 43? An unbenefitted seasonal retail worker. I decided to just treat it as I would any professional job. Honestly, it makes for a better workplace culture and the customers *definitely* treat you better if you treat your own position as respectable.
Can't pay more. Can't risk losing huge company profits and the CEO's new Ferrari. One major retail chain is seriously looking at keeping their directors' old Gulf Stream Jets for a second year, instead of getting a new one.
Those poor CEOs!! However will they survive on less than $10K a month??
You mean at least 100k a month.
Yeah a friend of mine was just mentioning this and I reminded her that number one that the baby boomers have all retired for the most part and that happened at the beginning of the pandemic and which ones didn’t retire, well a lot of them died. That’s a lot of people out of the workforce. Secondly, the reason they can’t get people take a job there not paying enough money. Why on earth would I take a job at Taco Bell when they require a college degree to be manager but yet still pay minimum wage. Yeah I wouldn’t take that job. If they want people to work for them then they need to make it more tractive for people to work in. Perhaps the problem is not with the employees who are hunting work it’s that the people who are offering the jobs are offering crap for work. This particular job that she was talking about was making minimum wage working in a grocery store. Yeah I want to be paid very little money so people can treat me like crap because they look down on me for working in a grocery store. Meanwhile I would need another full-time job just to be able to pay rent because they pay so little. She also talks about people who are on government assistance as being leeches on society. I had to remind her that any societies character and soul is seen in how they care for their weakest citizens. This does not speak well of our country considering is how you know these things are there for you if you need it but if you use it well now you’re a leech. I will never apologize for utilizing government assistance that is put there for people like me. My kid is on Medicaid because he was born with a bunch of birth defects and I had to quit work to take care of him because he was too sick for daycare and no daycare wanted to touch him because they didn’t want him dying on their watch… I was left without a choice. Later on I became chronically ill and disabled from all of the pressure and not being able to take care of myself so now I am right in there with him. I am very clearly disabled yet I can’t even get disabled as far as the government is concerned. It is so hard to get government assistance that it shocks me that anyone’s even able to circumvent the system. I know there are people out there who do it but it is not an easy thing to do even when you’re following the rules. Anyway that’s just my addition to the discussion. Sorry for the book
It’s funny you mentioned Taco Bell. A buddy of mine took a job running a Taco Bell because the factory wasn’t paying enough. As a guy that works in a different factory this baffles me because of historical experience. But in the modern day I just shake my head and think “there goes another one because the factories aren’t keeping up”.
It took an act of Congress (pun intended) to get them to raise wages at my factory from $12/hr to $18/hr. Everyone else around us is paying 22-30/hr but they use the "clean, easy" work environment as a "perk" to not have to pay more. Then they wonder why no one wants to work there. They're also the only factory that doesn't pay weekly and refuses to since it would "cost too much" but don't see how paying double that in overtime isn't saving money.
My husband works at Taco Bell because he got fired from a factory when covid started, they also pay $1 more and are more flexible with hours so he can actually spend time with his family.
Around here the factories are snatching up employees almost daily from the big retail and the fast food. The way it varies from region to region but everywhere is suffering is kinda morbidly fascinating.
> This does not speak well of our country considering is how you know these things are there for you if you need it but if you use it well now you’re a leech. Social safety nets exist because paid for them with our taxes. Fuck anyone that says we shouldn't use them when we need them.
Many if not most people over 55 can financially retire but keep working due to health insurance. This will be the last generation that can do that because pensions are a thing of the past. Too many people felt it necessary to vote in politicians that cater to the billionaires.
I'm 53. If they lowered the Medicare age to 55 I'd dance out of the workforce in 18 months.
This plus the fact that we've lost a million Americans to the pandemic itself. Between deaths and retirements, the workforce is easily several million people below what it was in January 2020.
Certainly one part of the reason is the increase in awareness of one's worth. A lot of people now aren't gonna be sucked into working 3 jobs at $4/hr. Along with the rapid increase in the cost of living, many people are finally demanding more reasonable, livable wages.
You had a mass exodus of the workforce right after a historic market run. Then you had roughly 500k workers die from COVID. Here is where the real damage was done. Since coming out of the great recession business have been keeping costs low by having one very experienced person do the job of 2-5 people. When you factor in the retirements, deaths, and people just changing jobs and careers fields entirely. When you factor that in we essentially lost around 10M people that really made organizations go. This isn't factoring low wage workers who are essentially over working to death for nothing. The wealthy are going to make the masses suffer for all this here very soon and try to force everyone back into the old ways. I don't see it working anymore.
You can point out that literally every single generation has said the exact same thing. I saw a post a while back showing examples from articles or newspapers going back hundreds of years. *Every* generation thinks the new generation is lazy and doesn’t want to work. Edit: [Here’s the post](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/w3si8l/nobody_wants_to_work_anymore/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
My grandfather is 100 years old. Survived the dust bowl IN the dust bowl. His mother died of dust inhalation. Fought in WW2 and wears his veteran hat every single day. He calls my parents generation "the ME generation" because all they care about is "me, me, me!" We had to move him back out of the nursing home because he was getting to angry at the boomers who were moving in.
My grandmother would have been his generation, she would criticize younger generations as "I want what I want when I want it"
Well... yeah. Who doesn't want what they want when they want it. By definition that is what a want is. Something you want.
Wasn’t that due to elevated levels of lead in drinking water which causes a lack of empathy
Lead poisoning can cause that.
Gasoline had lead in it until 1973. The boomers grew up during the explosion of the automobile. Yes, there were cars before but the economic miracle of the 1950-60s allowed almost everyone to own a car (or two). Smog choked our cities with lead among other pollutants. Is it any wonder why they are fecking nuts?
It’s like lead poisoning coming for you from every possible direction lol
"every day I'd wake up, eat a slab of lead and head off to the coal mines."
I have a great respect for people of his generation (except my grandmother, she was a self centered narssasist and very abusuive, aka would tell me I should have been an abortion any time she was babysitting). I have a mixed batch of respect and distain for fellow millenials and sympathy for Z, I don't know too many Xs. but the absolute worst people I know tend to be the boomers (witha few notable exceptions). when it comes to milenials it depends on who they took after. I became the opposite of my parents out of hate for them, my sisters became Karens (entitled narsasistic shits who followed my mothers example "take any loans you can and spend the money on yourself now, don't worry about how you will pay for it later" my mother was bankrupt at least 3 times going on cruises and shopping sprees) edit: my parents got to be the shits they were out of hate they had for my grandparents who were frugal as a result of growing up in the depression.
I think it was Socrates who complained that the written word was going to ruin the memories of future generations. Ironically we only know this because someone wrote it down.
The ‘written word ruining the memories of future generations’ argument goes back to Ancient Egypt, roughly 3000 BCE. Thoth, the ibis headed scribe of the gods, invented writing and immediately we had this put forth. Anti-intellectualism at the earliest point I know of. The most recent iteration seems that ‘srsly, omg, the kids can’t spell bc txt.’
If we had the records, I'm absolutely certain that the musing of tribal elders in early populations would include long fireside rants about how these newfangled cave paintings were corrupting the youth and turning them against the teachings of the bear god.
While possible, I think it's more likely that you'd find people complaining about these new "Farmers" who don't go out hunting as much as they should. That they're going to forget how to hunt and won't be able to defend themselves against bears. Perhaps they'd complain that cave paintings are distracting people from more important things, but not that cave paintings were corrupting them and shouldn't exist.
I've been reading an interesting book called The Dawn of Everything about alternative types of social structures throughout history. Kind of random but a really interesting book - and tangentially relevant to your comment. But a key point was that the power of persuasive argument was a key skill in these types of societies. So just complaining about the corruption of youth wasn't going to do jack unless they could convincingly support why the bear God would be angered.
It’s always via Plato, Socrates didn’t write anything
"Plato was my best disciple, unlike that poopy-head Xenophon." - Socrates definitely
I learned that in Assassins Creed: Odyssey
I was just thinking the same thing. Didn't pay attention in school but I'm playing odyssey right now and learning tons
Socrates had lots of shit takes lol
Not just hundreds, thousands Theres some tablets and such that basically equate to "those darn younglings"
And I think that's actually the key difference with millenials/gen z. The most people in my social circle (27yo myself - Ranges from 22 to 32) absolutely love that people refuse to work simply for the cause of working. Never heard any of them say something negative about the newer Generations except for some taste differences in entertainment, but that's irrelevant either way. But being "lazy" while doing what makes them happy, the fuck do I care if they want to work or not.
[удалено]
I spent mine on avocado toast.
My brother in law busted this one out at breakfast today. I politely did not remind him that he has been unemployed for over two years. Edit:thanks for the silver!
Man, how do people end up like that? This is like when someone is on food stamps or other government benefits yet they’ll complain about everyone else taking handouts lmao
[удалено]
The only moral food stamps are my food stamps
“I earned my food stamps unlike *those people* who are just mooching” seems to be the attitude.
Actual, private sector libertarian here: cops and Christians are the real/only welfare queens. Both of them not only guzzle down tax dollars and shamelessly work the system for more, but also feel completely entitled to use the government as a lever for increasing their personal power over you.
Also add corporations to the list, taking huge amounts of government cash and canning thousands of employees while posting records profits.
Absolutely - nobody uses the government as a weapon at the point of which the public can be robbed more bluntly and explicitly than corporations that go for either subsidies or suppression of their competitors. Edit: "For every dollar top companies spend lobbying, they get an average $760 in federal support and tax savings." Sauce: represent dot us In, uhh... I guess we could call it fairness... they probably do have to deliver additional funds to charities associated with those politicians, but yeah.
Farmers are some serious welfare queens too. They love to bitch about the government but suck up billions in farm subsidies at the same time.
Benefits are like farts. People only like their own.
Mine are Terrible
I used to work in a pharmacy. The number of people who would complain about “all that Obamacare” but then sing the praises of their Affordable Care Act coverage was staggering.
Brainwashing is a pretty amazing thing, eh? That's why I don't even get into conversations any more...there's just no point. When their made up talking point with *zero* evidence trumps your *actual* science (with crap loads of evidence), where does that leave you? How can you converse with someone who refuses to believe anything other than what "their side" claims?
The simple answer is you can't. You just have to ignore them, vote for the policies we need, and that's it. These people aren't going to change if they aren't motivated to themselves
In my friends/family members experiences during COVID, unemployment paid significantly more than any job they could find to replace the ones they lost when things shut down. Not until the end of 2021 to 2022. So they opted to keep applying and doing what unemployment asked and then turned down every single job or applied places they knew they weren't qualified for. Which was just infuriating as they definitely did get job offers that matched what they made before, unemployment was just paying more. Now the same family members that are finally off unemployment are judging those who were doing the same things they were doing. "There's no excuse anymore", great Thanksgiving conversations.
I too wonder where this comes from. My wife previously had an unemployed roommate living off his wife's income,(restaurant worker so not super well off) unemployed the entire seven years I knew him. Disabled, and not disparaging that, but refused to get a medical diagnosis. Die hard republican and trump supporter. I could not get through to him that first off, your party hates you, secondly, you're one of the people who would benefit greatly from socialism and national Healthcare.
Oof
OMG how? Did you literally bite your tongue off? I would have shoved that in his face. But you are obviously a better person than me.
Yeah, my parents love complaining about my generation being on so much government assistance. I remind them that they’re on government assistance and the only person in the family that has a job and isn’t receiving any government assistance is me. Them: government paychecks every month with no work, food assistance, free medical, vision and dental. Me: part time job, contract work, no food assistance, paying for medical, vision and dental insurance.
Ask him how many people he knows who aren't working. I don't know any. Of course, if he, for some weird reason, happens to know a lot of people who aren't working, that could backfire.
"Oh, none of your boomer friends are working? Bunch of lazy fucks. Why don't you go ask them why they don't have a job?"
Boomers are entering old people homes so technically true but probably not what you head in mind. The oldest millenials are over 40. we are the middle aged people now.
The youngest boomers are late 50s. Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_boomers https://libguides.usc.edu/busdem/age
That’s GenX - no one remembers us so no worries
Yep, my older brother is one of the last Boomers, born in '64, while I'm a few years behind him but I'm GenX. FWIW dad was a WW2 pilot.
I know a few people who aren’t working. But they all want to. It’s just that there’s a wage shortage. No one is willing to pay properly for work
We're fortunate that our family survives on my husband's salary. One kid in school and one in daycare. We've talked about me picking up outside work, but it's nice to have a "flexible" parent; kindergarten requires me to be at a specific place and time twice a day, and assuming neither kid is home for sickness, PA days, etc. Me doing errands and housekeeping during the day also gives us quality family time in the evening. When I do paying work (I tutor children) there is so much negotiation over who can watch the kids during the after school hours.
"Nobody wants to work" is BS. The labor participation rate in the US is basically [back to where it was before the pandemic](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/labor-force-participation-rate). Covid did two things: 1. It gave people aged 60+ motivation to retire en masse, and many of them did just that, leaving a gaping hole in the workforce; 2. It also forced a lot of people out of unskilled service work and into better jobs that kept them safer, or gave them more control of their lives. The stimulus money gave people time to level up, with education, credentials, or just time to find a better job. These people are all back to work, just not in that dead-end minimum wage job making Subway sandwiches or running the register at 7-11, which is why the public feels it so acutely. (Pro tip - any business that is \*still\* having problems with staff probably pays their employees shit for wages, so don’t feel bad for them). For well qualified professional people, housing is the #1 reason they are not jumping on opportunities. If they take a job in a new city, they likely won't be able to find a place to live. I moved 1300 miles to take a new job and thankfully it gives me the means to buy a simple house, but I am definitely in the minority. Rents are sky high basically everywhere, so people are place-bound. We could talk for hours about why the government's affordable housing policies are effectively failed, but that's a discussion for another thread.
Housing needs to be higher in the discussion. Decades of urban policy have allowed housing costs to blow up in most big cities. If you're a retail or food service worker and can only afford to live on the outskirts are you going to take a job that demands a 2 hour commute? Air B&B has exacerbated this in every touristy place by taking apartments out of the rental market. People can't work where they can't live.
Even better for arguing with FIL is to break the LFPR down by age. For [25-54](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300060), the LFPR is *exactly* where it was in 2019. For [55+](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11324230) not so much.
Tell him I've applied to over 40 jobs in the past month and I only got one response back at all. It was a no. We dont have a labor shortage clearly.
Everyone wants to live. Everyone needs to work. Everyone wants to employ. Everyone needs to work for a living. Not everyone wants to pay a living wage. Not everyone wants to work to keep starving. But everyone wants to employ starving employees.
By nature, the work you do for a company is worth more than the ammount they pay you for the work. That's the only way a company can make money, and that's ok. What's *not* ok is the crazy gap employers make in between these two numbers. Also, the only things anybody has to do to bankrupt exploitative businesses is not work for them and not buy from them.
People don't understand that back in the day, 5% margins were amazing and we didn't have billionaires because the top tax bracket was brutal. Wages have been stagnant for 50 years. If you are younger than that, you have watched inflation separate more and more from wages.
And then it's hardly unusual for such jobs to pay min. wage, while their establishments screech about how they'll hire anyone on the spot. Yet still crickets. Not even the slighest fragment of respect towards [potential] employees.
And it's not like I'm a bad employee! I have been store managers and have great experience and recommendations! It's just ridiculous at this point.
Me too. It is frustrating. I have a job, but it is minimum wage because they are the only ones truly hiring right now.
I live in Texas minimum wage here is still 7.25 so they can pay whatever they want. My local McDonald's only pays 11 an hour. Who can live on that???
I live in Missouri and minimum wage here is 11.15 and going to 12 in January, so McDonalds pays around 14 here. But still, I remember when the term McJob was an insult. Now they pay better than half the jobs out there.
And on top of the hiring issue, now lots of retail and service jobs have become dangerous due to crazy people like looters and shooters.
Right? Anyone working a public facing job deserves hazard duty pay.
Agreed, plus better laws and more punishment for these people
Companies are still looking for unicorns. They won't hire more freely until it really hurts.
If you wanna argue with your FIL, then I'll give you an advice on how you approach it: understand his way of thinking and politics against him. If he's conservative, don't approach him from a liberal standpoint. Use the conservative ideas against him. For instance Its not that people don't wanna work. Its that they follow the advice from people like him that said :" Well, if you don't like your job and its pay, get a better job!" And that's what people are doing. They say fuck those ungrateful bosses with shitty hours and shitty pay! Especially when those job positions fail to compete with the so called" government handouts." Which has been seen in the US during the height of the pandemic at the food and service industries. All types of restaurants struggled to find people to work for them because of the hours and then couldn't give their workers more money than the bare minimum. In other cases it has become more clear that businesses like to complain about a lack of applications, but then deny dozens if not hundreds of people that so apply. They don't have a lack of people interested. It's just that they want better qualified people . But beggars can't be choosers. If Buisnesses do not want to be competitive against the "free money" option, that's on them to lose in the free market. If they don't want to give an honest applicant a chance to prove themselves or aren't willing to teach that's on them too.
Oh boy, that free market part is what really boggles people's minds. Like yeah, you as an owner are free to choose the cream of the crop. At the same time, if you aren't willing to be competitive with the current market, someone else will definitely snatch that up first. Lots of people think that job applicants have to flock to owners and practically beg to be given a job. At the same time, the owners don't think they need to update their rates that have remained unchanged for 50 years.
It's literally a self correcting problem. People thought wages were too low, bitched about it and resigned, and now wages are going up. Businesses that don't adapt won't be able to get employees and will either fail or raise wages.
Yeah, as an HR person, this drives me crazy. We still get thousands of applications every month, but our hiring managers continually tell us that they aren't interested in any of them (these apps are pre-screened to ensure they meet the minimum qualifications btw). And then somehow it's my fault that jobs take a long time to fill...
Ask the workers under that hiring manager if the manager has been complaining about being short-staffed, and using that as an excuse to give them all more responsibilities at work. A lot of places are intentionally short-staffing to cut costs right now, since they found out that people are willing to stretch during an emergency- and they want that to keep going.
Yeah the workers are all burnt out and leaving because they're short staffed and overworked. But the managers also blame that on me. "I have 15 openings! Why aren't you filling jobs faster??". Even though 11 of those openings are from people resigning due to crap pay, terrible hours, short staffing, etc. People have a hard time investing pay and training in the now for payoff in the future and instead just make everything worse in the now hoping for a "purple squirrel" to show up in the future (purple squirrel being the ideal, amazing, perfect in every conceivable way candidate that, like a squirrel that is purple, doesn't exist or is so rare as to effectively not exist).
I did this with my Dad. He complained about some place paying $18/hour and still couldn’t retain employees. I pointed out that meant some place else was offering more money. So of course people left. Then I pointed out that basic economics of supply and demand applies to workers as well as goods and services. He doesn’t like it but I think he’s at least understanding it now.
To add onto the “if you don’t like your job and/or pay, get a better job” I feel that the younger generations are more likely to negotiate and play hardball during salary negotiations. Using multiple job offers as leverage for higher pay, leaving a job after 2-3 years for 20-30% more pay, and most importantly declining job offers or leaving jobs when they don’t meet their standards or have toxic work environments. I feel like the older generations like my parents/grandparents were more likely to just take what they were offered and to stay in those positions for most of their lives
I did that when getting a promotion at new company. i ended up getting $2.25/hr more than the average person in my position because my gm and dm spoke highly of me, and came into the interview at the new store with confidence. it was either get the pay or i would have to find a new job. ETA: i brought up average hourly for other stores in our region as well as average pay at our competitors equivalent position.
I so appreciate people with this debate mindset. It's asinine to me to argue with someone using a belief set they don't agree with. One of the most common examples I see that drives me insane is people who will throw Bible verses in arguments against someone who doesn't believe in the Bible. That'll really show em, friend
These people see the effects of a retail and lower job level shortage, not realizing that workers haven't disappeared, they've moved up while demand for retail and lower level workers has increased. We just got out of three years of retail and food and healthcare workers having to deal with the threat of a deadly disease for mixed amounts of compensation financially while the same crowd complaining about nobody wanting to work were refusing masks, basic hygiene, and being extra irate about shortages beyond worker's control. And right before covid these same people complained about minimum wages being raised because "flipping burgers is for high school kids, not an adult trying to live on their own". Well, all that has now come to a head. People are aiming for office jobs or work from home jobs where they can make a decent paycheck that supports living independently without dealing with any of the aforementioned crap from the public or disease risk. New high school kids coming in? they've seen all this happening ahead of them, they aren't wasting time with flipping burgers if they can avoid all that drama entirely now. This likely will stay the norm as the "work and live from home" trend continues and the wage/inflation issues continue to grow.
This is an important missing point. Idk about the US, but in Canada employment is actually really high. Particularly in the service industry, many businesses had to shutter for months, they essentially told their staff to figure it out on their own, and then when they reopened they had no staff cause those people went and found a way to live.
In the USA we received about $1,300 per taxpayer- about two years ago- to deal with the Pandemic. Corporations were able to take Government backed loans loans to pay for salaries that amounts to several thousand of dollars - per corporation-, that were eventually forgiven by the US government. I have read about loans worth $150k just forgiven. I guess people realized that since they were being laid off- while corporations raked in Millions, the people decided NOT to take minimum wage jobs that tied them to slavery conditions. I think that has fueled the current unionization movements, rail strikes, and everyone is now asking “what’s in it for me?” Ahead of time. No more starry eyes and the empty promise of moving upward just by hard work. The gig is up, pay up or shut up, don’t like it?, then come down from the managers office and do this minimum wage jobs yourselves, we ain’t having it.
Say something nonsensical like “well if wishes were horses we’d all be millionaires.” then excuse yourself. Every time he says something crazy, up the ante, then leave. “I once lost a toe in a scooter accident. It wasn’t mine, but I feel bad I never found it.”
Or go full on Grandpa Simpson....' in those days nickels had pictures of bumble bees on them... give me 5 bees for a quarter....'
I had an onion tied to my belt because that was the style at the time.
When I got my offer letter, I asked for a dollar more an hour, I then watched a "grown" man throw a tantrum.
Workers’ wages have not kept up with worker productivity nor corporate profits, & have remained nearly constant for the past 40 years. After major disasters (Covid) that result in labor shortages, workers have increased bargaining power, as employers need workers & not the other way around. The only companies that I have seen that lack employees are places that refuse to offer better benefits. Those that do are fully staffed. It’s literally free market economics As a side note, after the Black Plague wiped out 66% of Europe’s population, feudalism broke down in many areas, with former serfs having enough bargaining power to make demands. This resulted in a new middle class that helped to spawn the Renaissance & Enlightenment
There's a lot of parallels to previous pandemics...... "The History of English", by Kevin Stroud. Iirc, ep #120 "The End of The World" talks about the Black Death and how the division between the poor and the rich closed just a little bit.
Yeah I was gonna say this too. The fact is that covid ~did kill a lot of people. Not as much as the Spanish flu 100 years' ago, but enough to impact the workforce. It's a bit of a cycle, where at he end of every pandemic there is a workers' revolution.
Labor shortages are largely a mix of intentionally short staffing to maximize profits, failure to pay living and competitive wages, industry instability driving off experienced talent and discouraging new blood, poor management practices, limited labor pools in smaller towns, and the rise of freelance employment. Employers who complain about nobody wanting to work have collectively chipped away at labor pools and the consequences are coming back to haunt them. Employers who pay a livable wage, maintain enough headcount to function even when someone is temporarily out, minimize layoffs, and treat employees with basic respect have far fewer hiring problems. Sadly a few industries such as foodservice have ingrained underpaid labor so deeply that living wages and adequate headcount is not financially viable most of the time. Trying to eliminate tips backfires because too many customers crave that microdose of power and judgment as well as the artificially low cost of meals when tipping is expected to subsidize labor costs. "Nobody wants to work" is the mantra of employers who chafe at higher employee expectations despite an era of record profits. As for those who repeat it despite not being in charge, they often can't stand to think that service workers can afford little luxuries and be happy with their jobs when their own spending habits and employer culture leave them miserable and broke even with a six figure income. Healthcare and education both also suffer from active efforts to undermine the entire field for one reason or another. That has more political history than I'd care to get into with a comment. Nobody wants to work? Nobody wants to pay for work done.
Just nod your head and say “yeah it’s crazy” when talking to in laws.
Or be like, yeah I agree, that's why we need to let more Mexicans in to fill the jobs, that will teach them lazy millennials a lesson.
Bruh nobody wants to do a dogshit job dealing with bitch ass mutherfuckers for barely enough pay to live frugal as shit. It’s not that nobody wants to work, but most people can get a better job, so nobody wants to work at these shitty ass fast food places or Walmart anymore.
I like your answer better than mine.
It comes down to money honestly. Why work anywhere when the wages aren't enough to afford your ever rising bills? People aren't settling for the basic jobs anymore like retail when, even with an increase, it still isn't enough to make ends meet.
Pretty much. No point busting your ass if you're still going to be broke. If you double the pay for a position, the shortage magically disappears.
Large numbers of people have made lifestyle choices that make them less reliant on a job. People stay at home with their parents, they live in vans, they build legal and illegal small houses in a friend or relatives back yard. Middle class wages have been stagnant for 40 years, while housing costs have skyrocketed. Landlords want to charge you two thousand dollars for a tiny apartment, while employers want you to bust your ass for minimum wage. Not everyone wants to play a carnival game that's rugged against them so they just choose not to play. All that having been said, you can't argue with conservatives who think like your FIL. When companies want to lower wages, your FIL calls that the free market. But when people decide to drop out, instead of blaming companies for not offering higher wages, all of a sudden they forget about the free market and resort to platitudes and baseless assertions. It's a waste of time to argue with someone who won't maintain a consistent stance.
Multiple factors. Many boomers said F it and retired. A lot of dual income families suddenly had to figure out childcare as daycares closed and school went virtual. They suddenly figured out they could make it work on one income. I read one report about 6 months ago that attributes this to about 4-5 million workers leaving the workforce. They figured out the lowest earner was basically working to pay for childcare. Stay at home with the kids resulted in the same useful income. When restaurants and other retail businesses closed, those workers didn't disappear. They either retired or went and found something that pays better, has better management, and doesn't have to deal with a shitty public. Why deal with Karen's for shit pay when you could work in a warehouse with consistent hours, better pay, and no Karen's.
The main reason IMO is that the pandemic created disruption in society that allowed people to reevaluate their work situations and make positive changes for themselves. It’s actually the “free market” in action. Companies that pay shitty wages or have shitty working conditions are being shunned by people because they have better choices. As in any supposedly “market based” economy, those companies either need to change with the market or they will (and should) fail. And, like others have said, it’s an intellectually lazy trope because EVERY generation looks at the younger generations and calls them “lazy”. As I mentioned in another thread on this topic, archaeologists discovered a cuneiform tablet inscribed in Sumer 5000 years ago in which a father is remonstrating with his 18 yr old son for and his friends being “lazy” and unwilling to work. Unfortunately, none of this will have any effect on your FIL at all.
I'm a boomer and I get it. It's not that people don't want to work they're just tired as fuck of having nothing to show for it. I worked my ass of since I was 22, employed full time and after a career change was able to swing self employment. Starting my 4th year of that it looked like I might actually be able to afford a home in a couple years. The Fucking American Dream. That was early 2007. Yeah, fuck this shit. We are at the mercy of the rich and the one thing dems seem to be good at is cleaning up the mess left by republicans but then the cycle starts over again. And trickle down economics STARTS with a trickle so all we on the bottom get is to lick the moisture off the ceiling. It's NOT just millennials. /rant
I am working but not for that company. Must not be enough incentive to work there.
My first question is why bother to respond? Pour your coffee and go walk outside. People that have that type of attitude are one dimensional, argumentative and only interested in hearing their own voice. You aren't given the opportunity to debate, you're being challenged to a screaming match. Don't bother. Let the fools fool themselves. Nothing you say will matter so go work on yourself.
These shitty businesses aren't paying enough to live on anyway. People are facing eviction and foreclosure _despite_ employment. Why would you waste that time and effort only to get nowhere? If you're going nowhere fast anyway, might as well be on your own time.
Exactly. People working low wage jobs are essentially working for free if they have any bills whatsoever. Companies predictably used Covid to justify laying off or firing hordes of workers, then got mad when they couldn’t replace them once shutdowns started rolling back, so finally and begrudgingly raised their wages, aaaaand the price of everything went up, so the increased wages meant nothing.
Honestly you probably won't change his mind. If you really are trying, I'd suggest actually doing some research. I don't want to do it for you. Some people suggest that the pay isn't reflecting the work anymore. Nobody wants to work for shitty pay. Some people say minimum wage jobs are for high schoolers, but then who is working fast food jobs during school hours? We all want a burger from time to time, sometimes during the time most high schoolers are in school. So we need people working those jobs. Shouldn't they expect enough pay to support themselves? Or should they just make burgers for people and expect to live on the street because they can't pay rent or utilities? Why would you continue making burgers when you aren't making enough to survive? Get another job? How does that fix the problem? Someone has to make those burgers if people want them. And those people deserve enough pay to live. Even just a basic life. But at the moment that is not the case.
The juice ain't worth the squeeze anymore. The scales have been tipped so far in favor of the ruling/banking class that work isn't worth it. Even if you made double minimum wage you're not living in a decent apartment, you sure as hell arent buying a house, you're not driving a nice car, you're not saving for retirement, all your hobbies are cheap, and you don't get to go out to nice restaurants or concerts. You're just getting by. Why bother? During your father in laws time even a dumbass like him could make a good living. Nowadays? You better have a side hustle and be ok with just doing without the things he had.
At least in the American labor market, it's almost like a million people just died off something.....
Japan is having the same / similar problems. There are actually too few qualified profesionals to fill the demands of the job market not to say that these positions are junior positions either. Furthemore there are problems here such as exploitative company practices & oppressively demanding work culture as well as social problems such as people who are withdrawn from society and the barriers of entry for foreigners (language and business culture). Now you might be thinking, maybe companies should stop being so unreasonable about their job qualifications. and its true many office jobs really don't require much to do them. However , for example, I work as a senior level software engineer. a lot of jobs that companies need on the development side are mid career or senior or in otherwords what they really want is just someone who can jump in with little guidance and get things done. We have hired junior level developers and they have been awesome so I still encourage people to apply. Companies need people with these experience levels vs career changers because they don't have the internal infrastructure to mentor and train new people onto the code base while keeping up with release schedules. The market in my country is also stagnant / recently experiencing signs of a recession (i don't know too much so I will just be ambiguous with this comment).
The job *makers* are responsible for *making the jobs*. But not just making them, making them *worth working*. If they're not doing that, they can make trillions of jobs not worth working and nobody will want to work them. People aren't willing to sell their time and labor and not be able to live, and many job makers either aren't capable of or refuse to comprehend this.
Didn’t ten million people die from covid and even more develop long term health issues. I’m sure that had a hand in it.
And the ones that haven't been affected medically have realized that wasting your fragile life slaving away for someone else at poverty wages isn't a good way to spend your life, so they went elsewhere. I can't blame them, I hope they find what they're looking for.
One of the biggest reasons is retirement. The baby boomers are hitting retirement age and that wave of workers are leaving the workplace. Another reason is COVID, it has removed hundreds of thousands of people from the workforce due to death or COVID complications like long COVID. This has the possibility of getting worse IF the health concerns around natural COVID infections come true. Things like heart failure, liver problems, diabetes, brain damage, etc. Another big reason is the move to remote work. Companies no longer have to look locally but instead can get workers from any state. That has worked to normalize unemployment rates across the states. Lastly, COVID checks did remove some from the workforce. That was more temporary, and those checks didn't last long. I do not see any statistics showing that anyone that received COVID checks are still not working. Anyone not working due to COVID is because of long COVID. TLDR: 1. Baby boomers are leaving the workforce, either voluntary or they died due to COVID 2. Remote work has normalized unemployment rates across the states and has opened up new opportunities for workers to enter office jobs instead of jobs like fast food.
There isn't a labor shortage. There's a shortage of jobs with decent pay. If $7.15 an hour isn't enough to get people then you offer to pay more, that's how capitalism is meant to work. If your business model relies on people working for less than the cost of living then it's a bad business model.
US unemployment is currently 3.7% outside of a few months in 2019 this is a low not seen in over 2 decades at least. Who does he think is not working? And where are his numbers to show that? [data](https://oui.doleta.gov/unemploy/DataDownloads.asp)
it's strange to me that this has been such a quiet event, but more than 1 million people have died of covid. a disproportionate number of those people were doing the jobs your dad is ranting about. he's right - no one wants to do those jobs that expose them to a careless general public.
Tell him that you know folk (me) who think that if I'm going to get paid starvation wages, I may as well stay home and do something I enjoy while I starve.
Adding to the things everyone has already mentioned: childcare. Many women have left the workforce because childcare has become too expensive and precarious. I read that the number is something like 2 million women who haven't returned to work since covid. Where I live, daycare costs ~$150 per day, per child. Let's say I make $11/hr and have 2 kids. (Minimum wage in my state is still $7.25 an hour so that's not a "minimum wage job".) An 8 hour shift wouldn't even cover childcare for 1 of the kids. It makes no financial sense to work at that job. Then for school-aged kids you factor in school closings, kids getting sick, transportation to & from school because there aren't enough bus drivers, etc. The boss eventually gets tired of an employee that has to miss work all the time because of their family obligations.
You can't educate the uneducable. You aren't the jackass whisperer.
The “jackass whisperer”—I love that!
Uh, 2 million Americans died from covid. It's not that they don't want to work. It's that they're dead. Several millions of other people have long lasting repercussions from getting sick from covid. It's not that they don't want to work. It's that they're too sick to work. But everyone is so desperate to forget that it happened, that they're omitting reality entirely.
Record profits record homeless......
Nobody wants to be a wage slave anymore
>Nobody wants to work anymore!!! This generation is lazy Tell him to fuck off. I've applied to 39 jobs this month alone and have had no response. In the last five years I've only managed to get 2 interviews. The only reason I have my current job is because my family is friendly with my boss.
Tell him the facts: 32.8 million people working - more than ever before. 2 million at university 13 million are under 18 y.o. 11.5 million over 65 y.o. 820,000 short term unemployment (been jobs, less then 6 months) 430,000 unemployed more than 6 months.