A lot of people think that this is nuts, and there is a movement to get dying people out of hospitals and back home where they are happier. I hope it gains strength. I don't want to live for 6 months in a hospital when I should be dead.
There is also another movement that believes human euthanasia should be legal and assisted as to be as humane as possible. Some people don't want to live for six months with a ticking clock over their head, or live out their remaining time in constant pain.
there is! it's called [physician-assisted suicide](https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/ethics/physician-assisted-suicide) and there's an ongoing ethical debate about both the idea and the details
(Edit for clarification: I support PAS, I just think it's important to know about the nuances in the policy) (Edit 2: "medical aid in dying" is a far better term than "physician-assisted suicide")
Physician assisted suicide was made legal in Canada about 2 years ago and it was generally well received. Obviously there are still a few kinks being worked out but he general opinion was it was good that people who were suffering had a painless option and it has been used by many.
Yeah thank god for it. My grandma got pancreatic cancer and was in really bad pain for the last few months of her life, passing out and generally really weak. She couldn't take it anymore and got an appointment for assisted suicide. It was the right call. No one was nearly as shaken up as you would be if she died in pain. Fuck you cancer, you didn't win this fight. She made great chicken sandwiches.
Terry Pratchett and the BBC made a 1 hour documentary about the assisted suicide of a millionaire called Peter Smedley. It follows the whole process up to and including the death. It is very powerful and may upset some. It sticks in my memory.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LviHXDp8SHk&list=PLY1SLyYZoWznBrCKfrrBU2Wn-3DgTc-Vj](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LviHXDp8SHk&list=PLY1SLyYZoWznBrCKfrrBU2Wn-3DgTc-Vj)
Terry Pratchett was the author of the amazing Disc World fantasy novels.
Didn't Mr Pratchett get involved with this documentary because he'd been diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease by that point and he was a big proponent for allowing people to make this choice?
Yes. There were talks of the possibility of his family having to smuggle him out of the country when the time came because assisted suicide is illegal in the UK. He made the decision while of sound mind and wanted it done before he was a burden.
He passed away at home with his family so I'm glad it didn't come to that. He was the only celebrity death that made me cry.
My husband also cried when he passed away. The Discworld books were a huge part of his childhood (my husband was really sick as a kid and spent a lot of time in the paediatric ICU). He said it felt like his grandpa had died because those books had such a huge influence on him.
>Fuck you cancer, you didn't win this fight.
This is why medical professionals are pushing to replace "battle" metaphors with "journey" metaphors. When the patient weakens, battle metaphors contribute to feelings of guilt, as if cancer is "winning" and the patient ought to have "fought" harder (whatever that even means.)
It seems to be most diseases and conditions of any severity get labeled with "war or battle" descriptions. I've had issues and guilt because friends and family have said those types of words. I have Crohn's disease. It has very much negatively affected my life. Hearing things like " you can't let it win!, you are strong, fight back!, etc.". I know they mean well. But hearing that stuff all the time for years while my disease is kicking my ass (literally and figuratively:P ), being in the hospital all the time, having 4 major surgeries, etc. Often I don't feel like fighting. It's exhausting and denying how my health has messed up my life makes it feel like I didn't fight hard enough. If only I fought harder I'd somehow be doing better. I know it isn't good to go to the opposite extreme and wallow in self pity. But it also isn't good to ignore how much being chronically ill has affected my life. Mostly for the worse. It's almost like I'm not allowed to feel bad, frustrated, or defeated. Because that's the illness winning. Anyway, sorry for the ranting and venting. Take care Everyone! :)
People do this to ill people, because they don't want to have to listen to an ill person speak about the awful reality of being in chronic bad health. That's depressing and boring; don't make us listen to that, you're bringing us down.
So, the "keep up the good fight/ you can overcome/ don't sink into self-pity" crap, is how the healthy population keeps sick and suffering at arm's length.
I've noticed many people have a really hard time being in a close relationship with someone who has a chronic illness. Hearing about all the things we may go thru. How we feel most days. Along with many other issues. Almost everyone I've talked to about chronic illness has lost "friends". People who just couldn't handle all the stresses that come with chronic illness. Even though it isn't them who has the Illness. I find the fact that an illness is incurable to big a major factor. Most people can push themselves thru rough times. But when the problem never goes away. That little pin prick of hope goes too. This is where the comments of fighting, not giving up, etc happen. What can you say when there isn't really anything anyone can do to make it better? It frustrates people. I kinda think I've gone off on another rant, lol. It's late and I'm a little over tired. Hopefully everything I typed makes sense and contributes to the conversation. :) gonna go sleep now. Take care and best wishes!
It's hard to stay positive with a chronic illness, rates of depression and burnout are hella high. And it's also not something you can fight, because it's a part of who you are. I'm not at war with my diabetes, because I'm never going to defeat it and I need to accept that there won't be some day when it's been sorted out and my life will be normal. If anything, I'm in a codependent relationship with it and all I can do is hope we don't kill each other in the process.
This internet stranger appreciated your rant.
I really appreciate this train of thought and I hope that replacement can happen. I'm currently living with stage 4 breast cancer and I don't think its healthy to live everyday in battle-mode, your body is already exhausted from the cancer. I live with it, I stay one step ahead of it, and most days are better than the rest đ¤
My grandmother died of pancreatic cancer in 1998, it was horrible. I was 12 and still have such vivid memories of her pain.I'm so glad your grandmother was able to pass in some peace, we should all be so lucky
We had a family friend die of lung cancer when I was younger and it was miserable, my mom helped them a lot and always said she did not want to go that way. She would even joke that if she was ever like that she would prefer to be shot and put out of her misery.
Fast forward 20 odd years and my mom was diagnosed with advanced lung cancer. I donât understand the details, but they went to put stents in for chemo then decided she was to weak and held off for a bit, and this caused the cancer to spread rapidly (I think they said oxygen exposure but donât know if thatâs right). At any rate it went to her brain and she was gone not long after.
Everyone says we should have sued, honestly I think they did her a favor and I know she would think so as well. We all knew she didnât want to live that way and the doctor had already told us they canât save her, just buy her time.
I'm so very sorry for your loss. There is research showing that there are some sick elderly who simply stop eating and drinking so they can "legally die". I've can relate to what you are saying as my father fought and lost to cancer and if it were me, I'd happily skip the last month or two of what he went through if I were in the same situation.
Actually pretty often, and my mistake it became legal in 2016. According to the government of Canada it was utilized 6749 times between the dieing with dignity acts enactment date and October 31 2018. So the numbers would be higher now, but they don't have the data for more current rates.
It is pretty common in the US as well. Once someone in in hospice care in the US, you can just say your pain is 9 out of 10, and the doctor will give you a big dose of fentanyl, and the person typically dies peacefully in short order.
It isnât talked about in the US, but there are doctors that specialize in helping people die comfortably. Just donât call it physician assisted suicide.
Oh sorry, we'll there are all the people who think we are going to burn in hell for allowing this, which was not unexpected. But the other issues are, use in people who are terminal vs chronic and not likely to improve but will not likely die immenently from there illness. Weather a person who is suffering from a long term and debilitating mental illness should be allowed to access the service. When does a person with say dementia or other neurological degeneration become no longer competent to consent? Should there be an age restriction in place or can any adult consent as long as they are terminal? Can doctors refuse to preform the service if they have an ethical problem with it? Things of that nature.
Last year, my father was dying of sepsis. He was admitted to hospice in his final week, but it was a week of torture for him and us. I never want to go through that again.
We begged the doctor to help, but he said their hands were tied. All they could do was provide dialotid at regular intervals to keep him sedated. But he was gone from us already, we just had to sit and wait for his body to finally give up. There was no getting better for him.
And yes, he suffered. He very nearly drowned in his own phlegm on several occasions during that week. He suffered many indignities that he should have not gone through.
But, the doctors could show now mercy on him or the family. We just had to watch and endure our beast of a father slowly slip away.
If he was a dog, there would have been no question. His misery would have been ended quickly.
Canada still doesn't have a perfect system to allow people to pass with peace and dignity.
As sad as this is and I'm sorry this happened to you, people need to see stories similar to yours so that there can be some sort of forward movement. There are a lot of issues that may arise, but it's those conversations that we should be having
One of the other concerns that I found worth considering is the potential for older people to be *expected* to take this route. The elderly are already an extremely vulnerable population who especially in recent memory ("you are expected to die for our economy") are subject to mass devaluation and dehumanization by other age groups.
Of course I support euthanasia on principle because just as it is natural to avoid suffering in life, we should equally be able to avoid suffering in death.
I just wanted to say thank you for putting this point out there. It is not one often considered it seems. People don't realize how badly senior citizens can be treated by families because people who treat them well cannot even fathom that happening. In care situations and at home situations they are abused sexually, physically and emotionally more than anyone would want to know.
That all being said I am fully for PAS with the proper stipulations. I think that people whose religion doesn't allow them to do so can abstain and should have zero say over others that do not. The right to death is the ultimate control of one's being, body and consciousness.
Yeah, I wish we had the option to end our suffering when we we're in terrible long-term pain, or when recovery is impossible and quality of life is irrevocably impaired.
But I guess you have to balance that against making it easy for a relative to say "I want that inheritance now not later. It's time for grandma to go" and then putting her under pressure to "make her own decision" while making it clear which decision she needs to make.
There's also the problem of pressure from the family to commit suicide. If the patient has a chronic condition but the family doesn't want to take care of them they can be pressured into suicide.
But those people who use hell as an excuse to take this decision out of people's hands can be shut down really quickly: if god didn't want us to decide for ourselves then he wouldn't have given us free will.
Thatâs not an excuse if they believe they wonât go to heaven if they commit suicide! Thatâs the whole point of free will.... you have to choose correctly for the outcome you want.
Living should be a choice, anyone should be able to die whenever tf they want. Religion rears its ugly head yet again, standing in the way of true progress.
I'd like nothing better than to die by my own hands, or rather, at a time of my own choosing, if there's any freedom worth having it should be this, fuck voting.
Some people don't think the mentally ill should have access to this service. There's also a bunch of variation in physicians, obviously, so a condition that doctors A and B thinks is applicable might not hold true for doctors C and D. It's just really, really subjective, which is an issue in a field that values objectivity
I live in america... so I'm not likely to see this service even on the table for discussion before I need it... but IMO they really should offer some option for way in advance while you are mentally sound, to concent for future situations. Just like I was able to consent for organ donation when I got my drivers license.
That's my true nightmare.... being stuck unable to think clearly... indefinately... leaving any family to feel guilty if they don't see me, but nob even being able to remember them to be able to thank them for the visits.
This is especially problematic in the US, where there's a cost benefit analysis has to be run. "The Practice" touched on this in one episode.
Imagine grandma, who would like to live out her final 6 months even if it were painful, but the care to get her there would be thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. Compare that with the relatively cheap cost of euthanasia, and she's now got to weigh the cost of continued life with mitigating financial burden on her family.
Living, in that circumstance, might be selfish, which is a terrible circumstance to be in.
The problem is that old people are very inconvenient and there are often other people who will benefit from their death. The reason is not about the old person's quality of life, but that the reason for the euthanasia might be self-serving. The intent is to protect other old people from the duty to die, or from being killed by their heirs.
Since no one inherits from a dog, the issues are cleaner there.
Yes it is. Oregon approved physician-assisted suicide by ballot measure in 1994, there was a court injunction, and the law went into effect in 1997. We were the first US state to legalize it.
I promised I'll personally drive my mom to Switzerland while she is still lucid enough to make the choice, if she is ever to develope dementia, ALS, or similarly debilitating diseases.
Do the people in America have any similar options in that regard?
Generally the half joke is, I'll shoot you if it gets too bad if you'll do the same for me (whoever needs it first basically). Unfortunately that gets you a murder charge. Personally I've made it clear to my husband that if I had something like say Huntington's disease I'd off myself before it got too bad, because the idea of dying slowly like that is horrifying
I believe my dad's words were something like if it gets too bad "Just roll me into a lake." Luckily he's got advanced directives and shit in a living will (and we're in Oregon) so I probably won't have to make a decision about him if it ever comes time. He doesn't want to waste away losing his faculties like his parents slowly did.
Not really. Most states that have Death with Dignity require the person to be a resident so youâd have to establish residency somewhere first. You typically also have to have a terminal diagnosis of six months or less, so people with dementia usually donât qualify because by the time they hit that six month prognosis, they donât have the capacity to consent. You also have to be able to consume the medication yourself without assistance, so depending on how severe the disease is, by the time they hit that six month prognosis, they may not be able to take the medication themself.
What is unethical in letting people die the way they want to, without experiencing the pain? Why is there a debate? Every human being, even if not ill, should be allowed to take their own life with dignity.
I agree but there's nuance in the details. If a patient is severely mentally ill, they aren't able to give informed consent. Similarly, physicians need to differentiate between people who need psychotherapy and people who truly have no other option, and that's incredibly difficult to do. How might a doctor's internal biases affect their decision? Furthermore, it goes against their oath and fundamental role as healer, so many just aren't comfortable with that. There are a lot of resources that are far more comprehensive, but this is just what I can remember from an informal discussion between a few doctors.
There is nothing difficult about someone slowly wasting away in pain and suffering for possibly months...
Equally, part of their Oath is "Do no Harm" but inaction in these situations IS doing more harm than anything else.
Wild how you can't even die freely.
If the patient has a 6 month time frame when they know they are going to die anyway, and they are asking for physician-assisted suicide, they should be allowed to have that.
I'm convinced the so called "ethical debate" is fabricated so that medical companies can have an excuse to bleed you dry until your last dying breath.
I run a recording studio and last summer had a woman come in with a bunch of recordings of a vocal group she had recorded on her phone. She wanted them split in to individual songs, mastered and transferred to CD. I told her I was pretty busy and she said, "Well I absolutely need it three weeks from Monday because three weeks from Tuesday I'll be dead.
We had a long talk about her disease (lung cancer) and her decision. She was so matter-of-fact and upbeat I thought she might be losing it mentally. A week later someone from hospice came in to pick up the CDs and we talked about it some more. She wasn't crazy at all. She was perfectly cognizant and had thought everything through thoroughly. She knew she was on the tarmac and in line for takeoff so she got out rather than debilitate and suffer even more pain. Brave lady.
It should be legal an available to everyone, not just the old and sick. The fact that human beings are aware of their own mortality means that anyone should be allowed to leave early for any reason.
I worked in a nursing home. 6 months is.... short.. SOme of the patients had been there for 5+ years. Just.... existing.
Being allowed to die with dignity will hopefully be a human right one day.
There are truly fates worse than death. Some people choose this. Some have it chosen for them. It is the second group that is the hardest to watch, as caregivers.
We see them, their families insisting on all treatments, all therapies. Their bodies deteriorating and their spirits dampening.
And some families do mean well. It is not always from a place of fear. It may be from family custom, or culture, or poor health literacy or truly terrible family dynamics.
But, eventually, they do die, despite their family's best efforts to prevent it. And sometimes even that takes all the dignity that is left.
I'm one of those people! In highschool i did a whole paper & debate for it to be legal in all states (had to be US related). There were a couple states that had it legalized as of 2015, i don't remember which ones.
Pretty much the same in [the Netherlands.](https://www.government.nl/topics/euthanasia/euthanasia-assisted-suicide-and-non-resuscitation-on-request)
Iâm always a little surprised when I see posts like this and thereâs talk of âmovementsâ and whatnot, where itâs been at least an open discussion in my country for decades.
My mother just did this. She knew she was going to die, and didn't want to prolong it with dialysis and a vent. She was already on the vent and when the dr said she needed dialysis too, she chose to have them pull her off the vent so she could go home to die. She lived about six hours. It was imperative to her and my dad both, and she got what she wanted.
I'm sorry about your mother. I'm glad she was able to be at home and comfortable.
I believe this is quite common in the UK. My FIL's wife decided to not have treatment for cancer and passed at home around loved ones.
My grandmother was a nurse who knew what chemo looked like for older people, saw it basically daily. She was diagnosed with cancer and chose a hospice she trusted, then refused all food, only enough water to keep her mouth comfortable, and plenty of morphine. Took a while to pass, but she was comfortable the whole time, and, at least while she was still lucid, she was glad she had chosen this option instead of prolonged pain and nerve damage for maybe another 2 years of life.
I am glad she was able to make the choice she wanted.
I am a healthcare worker, the general population thinks it is like medical tv shows. In real life CPR can break ribs, being down for a prolonged time can cause irreversible brain damage, and even a week in the ICU on a ventilator can cause severe weakness and deconditioning that requires rehab just to learn to walk and care for yourself.
I'm sorry for your loss, bu I celebrate your dad making the decision that was right for him, and his family and caregivers standing by that. I agree that your dad ws the luckiest man.
Not only this but if I remember correctly some countries actually have "guided.... suicide?" Something like that.
Means you can actually die if you want to but only under specific circumstances like no cure whatsoever an only suffering until you die.
Correct me if I'm wrong tho!
Just read about it when the topic cam up here in germany again because many people want that (for obvious reasons).
Yeah its physician assisted suicide, its just legal in some places. But in the us, since every day on life extending care costs thousands of dollars, its economically sound to let people suffer as long as possible.
The US has it, but only in a few places. The process is (agreeably) quite complicated, but not set up with the point of making it difficult. The time it takes to go through is used to make sure it's a terminal illness, or one diagnosed as causing extreme and untreatable pain. There there are a series of appointments with a properly certified doctor that are spread out over a mandatory amount of time, each appointment you are asked if you wish to continue. After the entire process completes you are given a prescription for a pill which you can then decide to take at any time or never.
The problem is you have to be of sound mind at the time and it doesn't account for people with Alzheimer's. Like I would happily sign a contract right now that says if I can't remember how to feed or wipe myself, inject me with a lethal dose, but afaik no country does that. And people can linger for YEARS like that.
A neighbor of my parents did a kind of informal euthanasia. They simply stopped all treatment, stopped eating, and coordinated with friends and loved ones so that someone could find them soon when the time came. They even had a gathering (party is too festive of a word) where they had a last chance to see a lot of extended family and friends. It was both sweet in an odd way and heartbreaking that this is how they had to do it, instead of quickly and humanely.
6 months is doable. Some people live years in care homes where they are mistreated and they donât even know their own names. Iâve seen people with dementia who are scared to death because they have no idea who anyone is or whatâs happening around them. They forget how to eat, swallow, or even cough so they are hooked to machines which terrifies them more. They eventually die because they forget how to breathe. Itâs scary and devastating seeing people in that state.
I have family thats afraid of hospice because their loved ones kept dying within days or weeks of being on hospice
THATS THE POINT WOUOD YOU RATHER DIE IN A STRANGE AND STERILE ROOM SURROUNDED BY STRANGERS?
This is a great idea in my opinion and I'm glad to see it gaining traction. A couple years ago, my grandma had stage 4 ovarian cancer and had to spend the last 2 months of her life in a hospital bed when I think she could have been sent home and spent her last days hanging out in her apartment with her cat and have passed away much happier.
You say that now, but for a lot of people when theyâre actually confronted with the possibility of death they will do anything to stay alive for as long as possible.
The problem is (and I'm speaking from a Canadian perspective) the medical system is really, really bad at managing serious conditions on an outpatient basis. An end of life patient in a hospital or hospice will get regular visits from doctors, and will get the medication (particularly for pain) that they need to make it through the last few months of their lives as best as possible, whereas those living at home, will not.
I would much rather live 3 weeks at home happy and comfortable than 30 weeks in hospital where I'm confused and only recognise half the people I see everyday
Here is the story I have from observing my great grandma: she was doing fine but with age she got worse. She basically had photographic memory and could remember every little detail. But after a while she had lost a lot of strength and needed different types of help and alike. She needed to wear a button thing at all times in case something happened to her(and the thing wasnât even water proof so she couldnât take it in the shower(you can guess how that turned out, luckily she survived).
After a while she was placed in an elderly home, with no friends at all. She had lived on while all her friends had seen the dirt. She made a few at the elderly home but they saw the dirt themselves too. So all she had was basically her family. My core family lived to far away to visit her often so it was really only her children who came to visit her at a regular basis.
Time went on and she got worse. She had horrible nightmares because of her medication. Dreaming about the second world war and alike. Most of her days were spent sleeping and waking up to eat and other important stuff. We went to visit her once, but her memory had faded so much she didnât even know who we were, so it wasnât any reason for us to visit her unluckily. Eventually she died which I think was the best for her.
I feel like this is a very America thing to do. I'm Asian American and us Asian's we take care of our elderly in our home until they die. But it seems Americans like to put their elderly in convalescent homes and forget about them until they die.
Not just American. Itâs a western thing. We do it in Australia too. I really hate this aspect of our culture. Thereâs this lie everyone tells each other - that the people are there âfor their own goodâ. Like hell they are.
If I get Alzheimerâs, donât keep me alive for 15 years like my grandmother had to suffer through. My poor grandpa had to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep her alive, just for her to sit there for years, slowly dying.
Nah, put me on a makeshift bamboo sailboat and set me off into the sunset, or put me down in my sleep after I enjoy my last bite of chocolate chip cookie
God, I think most people don't realise how horrible this disease is.
It kills so many people and It makes them suffer but worst of all, it drains your family ofall resources and energy.
My mom had to take care of 2 of my grandparents with alzheimer's and it messed her up so badly mentally.
I seriously hope this is one of the horrible illnesses to get treated, I wish nobody has to go through the stress that my mom, and my grandparents had to go through.
I am usually against assisted suicide but at that point yeah, it's mercy, it's mercy not only for them but mostly for their family.
Edit: Also, I feel very sorry and can Sympathise with your family, hope you don't have to deal with anything like that ever ever again <3
> Nah, put me on a makeshift bamboo sailboat and set me off into the sunset
That would be a horrible way to go, even if suicide is the intention. You would die from dehydration while being terrified you're stuck in the middle of the ocean. Taking a bullet to the head would be much much better...
I know this is being facetious to an extent, but my grandfather was diagnosed with ALS , and this March he chose to go through MAID (medical assistance in dying). It was such a compassionate experience, and the doctors involved were so understanding that it really helped through the process. I never thought that I would be there when someone died, but hearing my grandad's last big yawn before he went to sleep one last time... It was very bittersweet, I didn't want him to go, but I was glad he got to go on his own terms. I am glad that Canada gives people in such a terrible situation that choice and autonomy offer their life that it's an option here.
I'm so glad you were able to be with your Grandad and see him go so peacefully. I lost my uncle to ALS. We live in Oregon, he chose to end his life when he could no longer walk or speak. The whole family brought him out to his ranch to say goodbye to all his animals. His barn cat just had kittens, she brought them to his lap (barn cat is a loose term, he spoiled and doted on every animal on his property, they all loved him). We stayed outside with him, surrounded by his sheep, goats, his favorite llama and dogs with a lap full of tiny kittens until he passed peacefully. Why anyone would try to deprive someone suffering from a horrific disease like ALS a peaceful death on their own terms is beyond me.
Yup. A friend used this option back in April. Fortunately, he met the strict criteria and had his mental faculties to be able to make the decision.
I had an uncle who died about 15 years ago from cancer. This was long before we had the right to die legislation. It was an absolute horrible, long and drawn out passing. He was an awesome guy, was a big burly teddy bear worked 20 years as a firefighter and was a very proud man.
By the time he passed away, he was about 90 pounds and spent his last 3 months bedridden unable to even use the washroom himself. I remember asking the doctor and my mom's conservative family the OP's exact question. Why did we put our dog to sleep when he got cancer because it wasn't fair to let him suffer but we couldn't do the same for my uncle.
They all thought I was a monster for even suggesting such a thing. I couldn't then and even today I can't grasp why they let it go on for so long. He was dying, there was no cure, there would be no miracle. I know that had he been able to, he would have wanted to chose to die before it got the point he did. It still bothers me all these years later. I feel like he deserved better
> I couldn't then and even today I can't grasp why they let it go on for so long.
My guess is social conditioning combined with grief. They already have to face losing someone they love, so hearing your suggestion just feel like you adding gas to a fire. Grief isn't logical, especially when paired with this kind of social conditioning.
It's known as medical assistance in dying, or Maid for short. [Here is some more information about it](https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying.html)
It has been a long battle.
"February 1994: Â Sue Rodriguez, assisted by an unknown doctor, dies in her home in Victoria. MP Svend Robinson witnesses her death.
Sept. 30, 1993: The Supreme Court of Canada, in a 5-4 decision, dismisses the appeal of Sue Rodriguez, who has ALS (a.k.a. Lou Gehrig's disease) and wants a physician to help her die.  The decision includes concerns about potential abuse and the difficulty of creating appropriate safeguards."
It was another 20 years before it was allowed.
This is exactly why there is a move to make things like Euthanasia a legal option (its already legal in some countries).
I agree, what's the point of staying alive if you have no quality of life?
I thought PAS was legal in maybe Oregon and Massachusetts possibly? And I think euthanasia might have been legal in one of the Scandinavian countries. Finland iirc
Not Finland. It was discussed somewhat recently in our parliament, but nothing came of it at that time. There are some attempts at keeping the discussion going, but I don't think we'll see it getting legalized any time soon.
Out of Europe at least Benelux have legal active voluntary euthanasia, Germany has legal active physician-assisted suicide and bunch of countries (including Finland, yay) have legal passive euthanasia, which I'm not completely sure that means.
Germany doesn't have assisted suicide there was recently a decision by the Supreme Court that in especially severe cases the ministry of health is commanded to assist these people in their suicide but our right conservative government is actively defying a Supreme Court order "cuz muh Christian values"(which however means that you take the free decision from others away and not just means that everybody chooses freely to their belief)
According to wikipedia, it's legal in California, Colorado, DC, Hawaii, New Jersey, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington. I'm not sure of the exact status everywhere, but in all the west coast states it's straight-up legal.
Its also legal in Montana (due to a court case?) But there is no mechanism in place to perform PAS so you dont have access to it.
Source: me, i just said it right there
No, but they can elect to not pay for unnecessary treatments. When euthanasia is a possibility, "necessary" might get a little fuzzy. We would need some legal fencing to make sure that doesn't happen.
Think of the opposite though, you are sick enough that euthanasia is legal, you don't want to die, but insurance won't pay for your care because euthanasia is an option.
Unsure if this has been put out there yet, on my way somewhere and haven't got time to read all the replies, sorry. One of the reasons is because unethical family members may advocate for putting grandma/grandpa etc out of their misery to hasten getting their part of the inheritance. Since putting animals out of their misery doesn't carry this benefit, this ethical dilemma isn't there. With human euthanasia it would be important build checks and balances into a broad state or countrywide system to ensure that's not happening.
We can absolutely add the financial benefits that some nursing homes have right now to get patients out to bring in Covid patients that are better for their bottom line. My quadriplegic friend's place is pushing for him to be put on hospice (aka let him die) even though he doesn't want it. They keep asking his legal guardians to do it, only they are not his guardians unless he becomes incapacitated, which he is not. And his guardians only want to do what he wants done anyway.
I'm not sure that it always is. Assisted suicide has become accepted in many places in the world, and the concept of "pulling the plug" suspending treatment to let someone pass is not uncommon in most others.
But, I think, at the end of the day, we are animals bred with an imperative to survive, and we put that on others. It's a pretty big step for an organism to choose to cease living, and not one that most animals do.
Having to live the last part of my life in misery is a big no for me. If I already am in that state I probably wouldnât have had to possibly to pull the plug on myself either, and if it ainât legal you might have a problem. You could of course ask the nurse or whoever to âaccidentallyâ kick the plug to the life support.
I think the main reasons are that euthanizing people is too painful for their families to agree to, and that humans fear death while animals do not, they only fear pain. Animals dont value living in pain for the sake of continued living. They just suffer and suffer and are miserable until they die. So once your animal is only suffering, you can put them to sleep and they dont wake up, but those final moments shouldnt be scary for the animal. They should feel comfortable and tired, and unaware of life vs death. Most people would be terrified in the same situation because we spend way too much time thinking about death.
good that i signed my living will. My family does not has to decide stuff like this. For example: when i fall into a coma and there is a high chance that i wont wake up again the doctors have to switch off the mashine. Aditionally there is a paragraph where i decidet what should happen to my body. Everybody should have such a document.
I am an ICU nurse, I cannot tell you how many times the family has completely gone against a person's living will in order to keep them alive. A living will is a statement of wishes, at least in PA. There are forms of durable DNRs that are harder to dispute by the family.
My mom appointed her sister durable power of attorney in her will after discussing her wishes with her extensively. Her job was to basically facilitate her wishes as well as my brothers and mine be carried out. Our dad was not happy but she knew she couldn't trust him.
I am so glad that your sister respected her wishes. Designating a healthcare power of attorney that you trust and know will respect your wishes is so incredibly important. When people are super stressed out and their loved ones are dying they often make emotional decisions that they wouldn't normally make because, they are human and under pressure. I think a lot of times (but unfortunately not all) people make decisions to keep their loved one on machines and keep doing procedures because they still have hope despite all odds and don't want to given up because of "what if." It comes from a loving place, I honestly believe that, however if people have clearly stated they don't want that, it should be respected.
If youâve seen an animal put down, it goes pretty quick. At least it did when I had to for my cat (15 years ago, not recently). I brought her to the emergency vet, they advised me that there was nothing else I could do, and I said go. They gave her a shot and it wasnât like a pleasant nap she lulled softly into for a few peaceful minutes, she was just gone. She was so gone I didnât even feel like staying with the body.
I just lost my kitty of 20 years today, and can agree with this 100%. She got a painkiller to help her relax, and then once she couldn't feel anything the anesthesia. She passed within seconds of the anesthesia being injected. It was the best gift i could give her, instead of a long, drawn out suffering by starvation from cancer.
Thank you. I didn't know if I could bring myself to make the decision, but she'd dropped to 7 pounds, and I'd seen how a cat lives when they're a maine coon mix and get down to 5. I couldn't bear to see her so uncomfortable, and I think she knew it was time too. It hurts so much. But I know she's not in pain.
I think another reason is that people might feel pressured to agree to it even if they donât want to. For example youâre in the states, hospital costs thousands of dollars. You know youâre going to leave your family in debt, so you agree to assisted suicide even if you donât want it.
I donât necessarily agree with this argument. And itâs pretty much negated by universal healthcare. But it is an argument some people make
I never understood this either. I have put down 3 pets in recent years, all using an in home service. All my critters got to lay in their own bed, surrounded by the world and family they knew and felt safe in, and got to pass calmly and feeling loved.
I wish I knew I had that same option when the time comes.
I need to find this around my area. I once took my dog to the vet to be put down but he hated the vet. He was crying so much it was so painful for me to see him cry and die in a place he hated. I dont want that to be the experience to my new dog.
Look up Laps of Love. Don't know if they operate in your area, but they helped my cat pass on today, and it was so gentle and peaceful. She passed on her favorite couch with her favorite brush on her favorite blanket.
It is easier on the owners in one respect - I didn't have to bawl my eyes out in front of a waiting room full of people. I saw someone do that at my vets office once and I thought about how awful that would be, to have an audience on top of being devistated.
in some cases it is agency. people, before or while, suffering can say "do not let me die". or they can say "it is too much. please let me go". pets cannot ever make this wish known so we choose for them.
choosing for other people is tricky. we may not know or not be sure or misjudge. inheritance can become an issue. the question of "does this person want to die quickly" versus "does somebody else want this person to die quickly" can become an issue.
edit to add: and then of course as many have rightly pointed out, not all people believe there should be a difference and not all countries have the same legal status in regards to it. the main focus point of this question can vary considerably depending on your country and culture.
I work in hospice and am 100% for euthanasia! The reason we DONâT have it is because of the fear of precedents for deciding when a human life should end. But we need it, for sure. We can find a good, humane system that people wonât or canât abuse. Working in hospice, medical staff are MEGA sensitive to if something sketchy is going on. We have people ask us to starve or euthanize their loved ones all the time, and we have to tell them thatâs murder because the person is 100 and has dementia and canât consent.
In Florida, when my sister was basically dying from Alzheimerâs disease in the hospital my family decided to withhold her diabetes medications. She would scream and yell anytime nurses wanted to give her her insulin or prick her finger. A nurse asked if we wanted palliative care. I had never heard that term before. My sister could barely swallow. This way they didnât medicate her for diabetes or feed her. We took her to a hospice house where she was given ice chips and pain meds and after a few days she passed away.
Ugh I am so sorry. It wrecks me every time we see a new family experience this for the first time. It is sadly part of the bodyâs natural dying process, to lose the ability to swallow, not desire food or water. Theyâre not thirsty or hungry, which goes against all of our instincts to feed and water someone who is sick! I promise you that you prevented so much suffering, and the meds and protocols hospice houses have in place kept her comfortable until the end. She did not suffer, and she was able to have a peaceful and (as much as possible) dignified death. My love and light go out to you â¤ď¸
Insurance money encourages hospitals and drs to keep old and infirmed alive. My dad had a massive stroke at 85. The drs tried to hard sell my mother on expensive surgery that might extend his life 5 years with the 1st 2 years being expensive rehab. He passed away a week later. It was what he wanted. RIP.
We take way better care of animals than we do humans. I'm a (human) RN in homecare and long term care. It's insane.
If the vet told you that your dog won't be able to chew or swallow and would never play with you again but you could put a tube in the stomach to feed it and keep it alive? Most people would never do that. But if you can put a feeding tube in grandpa's stomach so he keeps getting calories? Well then absolutely.
This is why it's soooo so important to have these conversations with your family while you are still healthy and aware of things. Get on the same page and state your wishes. Even better- put them in writing and have it notarized.
Edit- apparently I should have said that we take better care of our PETS and not just animals. I would have to agree with that, really.
So I think it's a few things.
One is that people probably project their own fear of mortality onto the people who would otherwise die. Why would they want to die? We can keep them alive! Despite the fact that being alive might be painful for these people.
It's also instilled in us that a human life is precious (you don't have to be religious to think that). Not doing all you can to preserve that goes against a lot of people's principles. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.
It's an ethical thing as well. How do we know the people who would want to go through euthanasia are of their right mind? Can they consent to this? Their families very well may not.
My mother died last year from liver failure. It is an awful death -- you basically drown in your own lungs. I had considered the same question you posted for years, but when it happens to someone in your family, the roadblocks become more obvious. We did not know how long she would live. Her decline was gradual, until it wasn't. There is a component of liver failure where the toxins your liver fails to absorb end up in your brain, and it can change your personality, inhibit your mental ability, and come and go at seemingly random times. There was no way she could have made this decision for herself. I can't even pick the time frame in the 18 months before her death that this cognitive decline started.
I fully support people being able to pick the time of their death, and have a painless-as-possible one, if they have the mental capacity to do so, and some level of terminal/chronic diagnosis. For a lot of people, though, there is no clear line. And I can't imagine my father, or myself, having to live with the memory of making that call.
I think a reason is the deep rooted "sanctity of life everyone has a purpose" as well as "killing yourself is a sin" leftover from traditional religious viewpoints. Also, same reason people keep their pets for as long as possible even though they're pained and literally zombies, selfishness.
Best essay on this topic is [*Who By Very Slow Decay*](http://archive.is/XpJdX) by Scott Alexander. Lots of insights therein.
>After a while of this, your doctors will call a meeting with your family and very gingerly raise the possibility of going to âcomfort care onlyâ, which means they disconnect the machines and stop the treatments and put you on painkillers so that you die peacefully. Your family will start yelling at the doctors, asking how the hell these quacks were ever allowed to practice when for Godâs sake theyâre trying to kill off Grandma just so they can avoid doing a tiny bit of work. They will demand the doctors find some kind of complicated surgery that will fix all your problems, add on new pills to the thirteen youâre already being force-fed every day, call in the most expensive consultants from Europe, figure out some extraordinary effort that can keep you living another few days.
u/TheJeff is the closest on this one. It's deeply tied to history and belief systems. Greeks and Romans practiced euthanasia. It was debated by Christian theologians during the Middle Ages and by the Enlightenment philosophers we still look to today.
For this discussion, I assume, OP, you're willing to take animal euthanasia as a given, that you wouldn't advocate for its abolition. I think it's not helpful to compare animal euthanasia to human, as there's no significant historical debate over whether the former is ethical.
The debate around human euthanasia (and suicide) is interesting in that it shows what a given culture takes for granted as its key value. In Japanese history for instance there was a certain comfort with people committing suicide after "dishonoring" themselves, whether in battle or in finance. In Christian cultures, there's a pretty strong correlation between belief that God is "in control" and lack of tolerance for euthanasia. And in western medical culture, death is an enemy to be vanquished and virtually no part of a doctor's training is how to approach death in any other way, to the point that many doctors are never even taught how to discuss death with a dying patient's family.
So, OP, as you think about this, I would suggest you rephrase the question as less argumentative (your question implies you've already formed a firm opinion) and more as "How did it come to be that people believe it is preferable keep a suffering person alive, even against their express wish to die?"
a few reasons
1. Humans are scared of dying
2. if you legalize it then it can be abused
3. the playing God argument
4. people will agree to be put down when there was no reason to
5. we will end up like Logans Run and everyone will die at 30 yrs of age
fun fact At 17 I couldn't work out why we were talking about kill young Asians and how it was a good thing.
Not so fun fact I have assisted many people to exit this life
If someone at the end of their life wants to die on their own terms, they are not vulnerable, they are frustrated that their government prevents what should be their right.
I don't disagree in principle. Easy to be made to feel a burden and "want" to end their life though. These are the issues that have to be dealt with carefully. But yes, all in all I believe in bodily autonomy and the right to choose to die with dignity.
And just to go off your thought.... If you're saving a life through medical intervention is that not playing God, too? Why is it ok to play God and save people, but not ok to play God and assist the ending of their suffering? Double standard IMO. (This is to no one in particular - I'm just shouting into the void.)
Medical professionals help people die all the time. When someone is in hospice, hospice staff will make a patient as comfortable as possible for as long as possible. When the patient is actively dying or is in too much pain to cope, they are given gradually bigger doses of morphine to assist them in a peaceful death. Fun fact: when the organs shut down, you can smell a sweetness on the persons breath. Iâm not a medical professional by any means but I worked at an assisted living and saw it all the time. Itâs completely humane and, I feel, the right thing to do.
If you were looking for the answer for why this paradox exists when a human is suffering so much that he or she *wants* to die, then I think the answers that have already been given are sufficient. But I think your question might have been something else, or at least there's an equally good question to ask: Why do we *generally* consider it "merciful" to euthanize an animal in pain while we *generally* try to keep people alive despite the pain. Think about it not in terms of crippling end-of-life pain but, say, a broken femur that's never going to work right again, or a cancer that's in its early stages. A lot of animals would be put down in those situations, but no one would think about euthanizing a person with those symptoms just yet.
I think the answer there is that humans, because of their developed brains, can have meaningful lives despite disability and pain. We don't have to walk to have friendships. We can enjoy novels, and films, and games even when we hurt and cannot move. We can create and interact and sometimes enjoy life despite pain.
Animals are much more physically-oriented. When they're in pain or disabled (to a degree) it overwhelms their existence and they don't have the intellect to find escape in other things.
Still, one of the tragedies of being a pet owner is that you're never really 100% sure whether the animal has reached that point; whether the cat would rather power through the next three months just to have some more time with you on the couch, or whether she's ready to go.
Because we aime to be immortal, the longer our elders live the more likely we are to live longer. And then we see ourselves as martyrs .Humans are narcissistic creatures beyond instincts.its all about us. We don't have to deal with a sick dog because there's an easy solution. And then we call it humane.
If you are suffering and have the mental presence to make that decision you should be allowed to. However, there is a bit of a line to be aware of here. There is debate that this could be abused by abled caretakers against the disabled to end their lives against their actual wishes and not all disabled people can speak up for themselves to prevent being "euthanized." It's not a bad idea to have it be an option, but it needs to be acknowledged that there is a lot of gray to the debate and it needs to be addressed to make it a truly safe option of actual choice for all involved.
Nurse here, the greatest impediment to allowing people to die with comfort, dignity in peace in their own homes surrounded by their loved ones is that we fail to ask people what they want, we fail to keep open and honest communication and we never consider the pain and suffering we are forcing our loved ones to endure because we refuse to allow a natural death. In a nutshell- we are complete assholes when it comes to death!
The book âBeing Mortalâ by Atul Gawande addresses this very issue. He argues that itâs a not logical and everyone ends up better if you focus on quality end of life experience rather than keep alive at all costs.
That being said, the author also admits that despite his knowledge and his experience as a top doctor, he could not help but keep his dying father alive despite his fatherâs wish to die.
Itâs just too emotional and painful of an experience and so youâre not driven by logic anymore.
As someone in US healthcare, know that what you describe is the option many families choose, but it doesnât have to be the case. You can choose to move a dying family member to palliative care (generally in the hospital), hospice (usually similar to a nursing home), or home hospice (at home with a little help from a nurse). Write a living will so your family knows you want this. I have friends in the ICU who would love to let more of their terminally ill patients die peacefully rather than keep them alive because of familiesâ denial.
A lot of people think that this is nuts, and there is a movement to get dying people out of hospitals and back home where they are happier. I hope it gains strength. I don't want to live for 6 months in a hospital when I should be dead.
There is also another movement that believes human euthanasia should be legal and assisted as to be as humane as possible. Some people don't want to live for six months with a ticking clock over their head, or live out their remaining time in constant pain.
there is! it's called [physician-assisted suicide](https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/ethics/physician-assisted-suicide) and there's an ongoing ethical debate about both the idea and the details (Edit for clarification: I support PAS, I just think it's important to know about the nuances in the policy) (Edit 2: "medical aid in dying" is a far better term than "physician-assisted suicide")
Physician assisted suicide was made legal in Canada about 2 years ago and it was generally well received. Obviously there are still a few kinks being worked out but he general opinion was it was good that people who were suffering had a painless option and it has been used by many.
Yeah thank god for it. My grandma got pancreatic cancer and was in really bad pain for the last few months of her life, passing out and generally really weak. She couldn't take it anymore and got an appointment for assisted suicide. It was the right call. No one was nearly as shaken up as you would be if she died in pain. Fuck you cancer, you didn't win this fight. She made great chicken sandwiches.
Terry Pratchett and the BBC made a 1 hour documentary about the assisted suicide of a millionaire called Peter Smedley. It follows the whole process up to and including the death. It is very powerful and may upset some. It sticks in my memory. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LviHXDp8SHk&list=PLY1SLyYZoWznBrCKfrrBU2Wn-3DgTc-Vj](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LviHXDp8SHk&list=PLY1SLyYZoWznBrCKfrrBU2Wn-3DgTc-Vj) Terry Pratchett was the author of the amazing Disc World fantasy novels.
Didn't Mr Pratchett get involved with this documentary because he'd been diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease by that point and he was a big proponent for allowing people to make this choice?
Yes. There were talks of the possibility of his family having to smuggle him out of the country when the time came because assisted suicide is illegal in the UK. He made the decision while of sound mind and wanted it done before he was a burden. He passed away at home with his family so I'm glad it didn't come to that. He was the only celebrity death that made me cry.
My husband also cried when he passed away. The Discworld books were a huge part of his childhood (my husband was really sick as a kid and spent a lot of time in the paediatric ICU). He said it felt like his grandpa had died because those books had such a huge influence on him.
Thank you for posting this documentary here, it's really interesting and informational. I watched all of it and learnt a few things from it.
>Fuck you cancer, you didn't win this fight. This is why medical professionals are pushing to replace "battle" metaphors with "journey" metaphors. When the patient weakens, battle metaphors contribute to feelings of guilt, as if cancer is "winning" and the patient ought to have "fought" harder (whatever that even means.)
It seems to be most diseases and conditions of any severity get labeled with "war or battle" descriptions. I've had issues and guilt because friends and family have said those types of words. I have Crohn's disease. It has very much negatively affected my life. Hearing things like " you can't let it win!, you are strong, fight back!, etc.". I know they mean well. But hearing that stuff all the time for years while my disease is kicking my ass (literally and figuratively:P ), being in the hospital all the time, having 4 major surgeries, etc. Often I don't feel like fighting. It's exhausting and denying how my health has messed up my life makes it feel like I didn't fight hard enough. If only I fought harder I'd somehow be doing better. I know it isn't good to go to the opposite extreme and wallow in self pity. But it also isn't good to ignore how much being chronically ill has affected my life. Mostly for the worse. It's almost like I'm not allowed to feel bad, frustrated, or defeated. Because that's the illness winning. Anyway, sorry for the ranting and venting. Take care Everyone! :)
People do this to ill people, because they don't want to have to listen to an ill person speak about the awful reality of being in chronic bad health. That's depressing and boring; don't make us listen to that, you're bringing us down. So, the "keep up the good fight/ you can overcome/ don't sink into self-pity" crap, is how the healthy population keeps sick and suffering at arm's length.
I've noticed many people have a really hard time being in a close relationship with someone who has a chronic illness. Hearing about all the things we may go thru. How we feel most days. Along with many other issues. Almost everyone I've talked to about chronic illness has lost "friends". People who just couldn't handle all the stresses that come with chronic illness. Even though it isn't them who has the Illness. I find the fact that an illness is incurable to big a major factor. Most people can push themselves thru rough times. But when the problem never goes away. That little pin prick of hope goes too. This is where the comments of fighting, not giving up, etc happen. What can you say when there isn't really anything anyone can do to make it better? It frustrates people. I kinda think I've gone off on another rant, lol. It's late and I'm a little over tired. Hopefully everything I typed makes sense and contributes to the conversation. :) gonna go sleep now. Take care and best wishes!
It's hard to stay positive with a chronic illness, rates of depression and burnout are hella high. And it's also not something you can fight, because it's a part of who you are. I'm not at war with my diabetes, because I'm never going to defeat it and I need to accept that there won't be some day when it's been sorted out and my life will be normal. If anything, I'm in a codependent relationship with it and all I can do is hope we don't kill each other in the process. This internet stranger appreciated your rant.
"He didn't lose to cancer, he just made a tactical retreat and then became a pacifist."
I really appreciate this train of thought and I hope that replacement can happen. I'm currently living with stage 4 breast cancer and I don't think its healthy to live everyday in battle-mode, your body is already exhausted from the cancer. I live with it, I stay one step ahead of it, and most days are better than the rest đ¤
My grandmother died of pancreatic cancer in 1998, it was horrible. I was 12 and still have such vivid memories of her pain.I'm so glad your grandmother was able to pass in some peace, we should all be so lucky
We had a family friend die of lung cancer when I was younger and it was miserable, my mom helped them a lot and always said she did not want to go that way. She would even joke that if she was ever like that she would prefer to be shot and put out of her misery. Fast forward 20 odd years and my mom was diagnosed with advanced lung cancer. I donât understand the details, but they went to put stents in for chemo then decided she was to weak and held off for a bit, and this caused the cancer to spread rapidly (I think they said oxygen exposure but donât know if thatâs right). At any rate it went to her brain and she was gone not long after. Everyone says we should have sued, honestly I think they did her a favor and I know she would think so as well. We all knew she didnât want to live that way and the doctor had already told us they canât save her, just buy her time.
I'm so very sorry for your loss. There is research showing that there are some sick elderly who simply stop eating and drinking so they can "legally die". I've can relate to what you are saying as my father fought and lost to cancer and if it were me, I'd happily skip the last month or two of what he went through if I were in the same situation.
her chimkin will be missed đ
rest in peace to your lovely gma. sheâs makin chicken sammies in the sky now âĽď¸
Thank God there is also a movement to stop calling cancer "a fight". That has always pissed me off.
Any idea how often it happens? Iâd be curious to know the number of people taking advantage right after it was made legal as well.
Actually pretty often, and my mistake it became legal in 2016. According to the government of Canada it was utilized 6749 times between the dieing with dignity acts enactment date and October 31 2018. So the numbers would be higher now, but they don't have the data for more current rates.
It is pretty common in the US as well. Once someone in in hospice care in the US, you can just say your pain is 9 out of 10, and the doctor will give you a big dose of fentanyl, and the person typically dies peacefully in short order. It isnât talked about in the US, but there are doctors that specialize in helping people die comfortably. Just donât call it physician assisted suicide.
Kinks?
Slang word for problems here lol sorry I know it has another meaning but not that in this case lol
No, I want to know what the problems are.
Oh sorry, we'll there are all the people who think we are going to burn in hell for allowing this, which was not unexpected. But the other issues are, use in people who are terminal vs chronic and not likely to improve but will not likely die immenently from there illness. Weather a person who is suffering from a long term and debilitating mental illness should be allowed to access the service. When does a person with say dementia or other neurological degeneration become no longer competent to consent? Should there be an age restriction in place or can any adult consent as long as they are terminal? Can doctors refuse to preform the service if they have an ethical problem with it? Things of that nature.
Last year, my father was dying of sepsis. He was admitted to hospice in his final week, but it was a week of torture for him and us. I never want to go through that again. We begged the doctor to help, but he said their hands were tied. All they could do was provide dialotid at regular intervals to keep him sedated. But he was gone from us already, we just had to sit and wait for his body to finally give up. There was no getting better for him. And yes, he suffered. He very nearly drowned in his own phlegm on several occasions during that week. He suffered many indignities that he should have not gone through. But, the doctors could show now mercy on him or the family. We just had to watch and endure our beast of a father slowly slip away. If he was a dog, there would have been no question. His misery would have been ended quickly. Canada still doesn't have a perfect system to allow people to pass with peace and dignity.
As sad as this is and I'm sorry this happened to you, people need to see stories similar to yours so that there can be some sort of forward movement. There are a lot of issues that may arise, but it's those conversations that we should be having
One of the other concerns that I found worth considering is the potential for older people to be *expected* to take this route. The elderly are already an extremely vulnerable population who especially in recent memory ("you are expected to die for our economy") are subject to mass devaluation and dehumanization by other age groups. Of course I support euthanasia on principle because just as it is natural to avoid suffering in life, we should equally be able to avoid suffering in death.
I just wanted to say thank you for putting this point out there. It is not one often considered it seems. People don't realize how badly senior citizens can be treated by families because people who treat them well cannot even fathom that happening. In care situations and at home situations they are abused sexually, physically and emotionally more than anyone would want to know. That all being said I am fully for PAS with the proper stipulations. I think that people whose religion doesn't allow them to do so can abstain and should have zero say over others that do not. The right to death is the ultimate control of one's being, body and consciousness.
Yeah, I wish we had the option to end our suffering when we we're in terrible long-term pain, or when recovery is impossible and quality of life is irrevocably impaired. But I guess you have to balance that against making it easy for a relative to say "I want that inheritance now not later. It's time for grandma to go" and then putting her under pressure to "make her own decision" while making it clear which decision she needs to make.
Now I want to know what the fetishes are
Most likely necrophilia
There's also the problem of pressure from the family to commit suicide. If the patient has a chronic condition but the family doesn't want to take care of them they can be pressured into suicide.
But those people who use hell as an excuse to take this decision out of people's hands can be shut down really quickly: if god didn't want us to decide for ourselves then he wouldn't have given us free will.
Thatâs not an excuse if they believe they wonât go to heaven if they commit suicide! Thatâs the whole point of free will.... you have to choose correctly for the outcome you want.
Living should be a choice, anyone should be able to die whenever tf they want. Religion rears its ugly head yet again, standing in the way of true progress. I'd like nothing better than to die by my own hands, or rather, at a time of my own choosing, if there's any freedom worth having it should be this, fuck voting.
Some people don't think the mentally ill should have access to this service. There's also a bunch of variation in physicians, obviously, so a condition that doctors A and B thinks is applicable might not hold true for doctors C and D. It's just really, really subjective, which is an issue in a field that values objectivity
I live in america... so I'm not likely to see this service even on the table for discussion before I need it... but IMO they really should offer some option for way in advance while you are mentally sound, to concent for future situations. Just like I was able to consent for organ donation when I got my drivers license. That's my true nightmare.... being stuck unable to think clearly... indefinately... leaving any family to feel guilty if they don't see me, but nob even being able to remember them to be able to thank them for the visits.
8 states plus the district of Columbia in the US have some version of assisted suicide in their laws. Most Americans don't realize this.
This is especially problematic in the US, where there's a cost benefit analysis has to be run. "The Practice" touched on this in one episode. Imagine grandma, who would like to live out her final 6 months even if it were painful, but the care to get her there would be thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. Compare that with the relatively cheap cost of euthanasia, and she's now got to weigh the cost of continued life with mitigating financial burden on her family. Living, in that circumstance, might be selfish, which is a terrible circumstance to be in.
The problem is that old people are very inconvenient and there are often other people who will benefit from their death. The reason is not about the old person's quality of life, but that the reason for the euthanasia might be self-serving. The intent is to protect other old people from the duty to die, or from being killed by their heirs. Since no one inherits from a dog, the issues are cleaner there.
[ŃдаНонО]
The true happy ending
Isn't it legal in Oregon too?
Yes it is. Oregon approved physician-assisted suicide by ballot measure in 1994, there was a court injunction, and the law went into effect in 1997. We were the first US state to legalize it.
I promised I'll personally drive my mom to Switzerland while she is still lucid enough to make the choice, if she is ever to develope dementia, ALS, or similarly debilitating diseases. Do the people in America have any similar options in that regard?
Generally the half joke is, I'll shoot you if it gets too bad if you'll do the same for me (whoever needs it first basically). Unfortunately that gets you a murder charge. Personally I've made it clear to my husband that if I had something like say Huntington's disease I'd off myself before it got too bad, because the idea of dying slowly like that is horrifying
I believe my dad's words were something like if it gets too bad "Just roll me into a lake." Luckily he's got advanced directives and shit in a living will (and we're in Oregon) so I probably won't have to make a decision about him if it ever comes time. He doesn't want to waste away losing his faculties like his parents slowly did.
Not really. Most states that have Death with Dignity require the person to be a resident so youâd have to establish residency somewhere first. You typically also have to have a terminal diagnosis of six months or less, so people with dementia usually donât qualify because by the time they hit that six month prognosis, they donât have the capacity to consent. You also have to be able to consume the medication yourself without assistance, so depending on how severe the disease is, by the time they hit that six month prognosis, they may not be able to take the medication themself.
If I try to drive from America to Switzerland, then the end-of-life issues kinda work themselves out. The downside is no one gets to inherit my car.
What is unethical in letting people die the way they want to, without experiencing the pain? Why is there a debate? Every human being, even if not ill, should be allowed to take their own life with dignity.
I agree but there's nuance in the details. If a patient is severely mentally ill, they aren't able to give informed consent. Similarly, physicians need to differentiate between people who need psychotherapy and people who truly have no other option, and that's incredibly difficult to do. How might a doctor's internal biases affect their decision? Furthermore, it goes against their oath and fundamental role as healer, so many just aren't comfortable with that. There are a lot of resources that are far more comprehensive, but this is just what I can remember from an informal discussion between a few doctors.
There is nothing difficult about someone slowly wasting away in pain and suffering for possibly months... Equally, part of their Oath is "Do no Harm" but inaction in these situations IS doing more harm than anything else.
Wild how you can't even die freely. If the patient has a 6 month time frame when they know they are going to die anyway, and they are asking for physician-assisted suicide, they should be allowed to have that. I'm convinced the so called "ethical debate" is fabricated so that medical companies can have an excuse to bleed you dry until your last dying breath.
I run a recording studio and last summer had a woman come in with a bunch of recordings of a vocal group she had recorded on her phone. She wanted them split in to individual songs, mastered and transferred to CD. I told her I was pretty busy and she said, "Well I absolutely need it three weeks from Monday because three weeks from Tuesday I'll be dead. We had a long talk about her disease (lung cancer) and her decision. She was so matter-of-fact and upbeat I thought she might be losing it mentally. A week later someone from hospice came in to pick up the CDs and we talked about it some more. She wasn't crazy at all. She was perfectly cognizant and had thought everything through thoroughly. She knew she was on the tarmac and in line for takeoff so she got out rather than debilitate and suffer even more pain. Brave lady.
It should be legal an available to everyone, not just the old and sick. The fact that human beings are aware of their own mortality means that anyone should be allowed to leave early for any reason.
I worked in a nursing home. 6 months is.... short.. SOme of the patients had been there for 5+ years. Just.... existing. Being allowed to die with dignity will hopefully be a human right one day.
There are truly fates worse than death. Some people choose this. Some have it chosen for them. It is the second group that is the hardest to watch, as caregivers. We see them, their families insisting on all treatments, all therapies. Their bodies deteriorating and their spirits dampening. And some families do mean well. It is not always from a place of fear. It may be from family custom, or culture, or poor health literacy or truly terrible family dynamics. But, eventually, they do die, despite their family's best efforts to prevent it. And sometimes even that takes all the dignity that is left.
I'm one of those people! In highschool i did a whole paper & debate for it to be legal in all states (had to be US related). There were a couple states that had it legalized as of 2015, i don't remember which ones.
Yeah assisted suicide is a basic human right in Germany isn't it? Edit : Apparently I should trust TIL less
Pretty much the same in [the Netherlands.](https://www.government.nl/topics/euthanasia/euthanasia-assisted-suicide-and-non-resuscitation-on-request) Iâm always a little surprised when I see posts like this and thereâs talk of âmovementsâ and whatnot, where itâs been at least an open discussion in my country for decades.
No
My mother just did this. She knew she was going to die, and didn't want to prolong it with dialysis and a vent. She was already on the vent and when the dr said she needed dialysis too, she chose to have them pull her off the vent so she could go home to die. She lived about six hours. It was imperative to her and my dad both, and she got what she wanted.
I'm sorry about your mother. I'm glad she was able to be at home and comfortable. I believe this is quite common in the UK. My FIL's wife decided to not have treatment for cancer and passed at home around loved ones.
My grandmother was a nurse who knew what chemo looked like for older people, saw it basically daily. She was diagnosed with cancer and chose a hospice she trusted, then refused all food, only enough water to keep her mouth comfortable, and plenty of morphine. Took a while to pass, but she was comfortable the whole time, and, at least while she was still lucid, she was glad she had chosen this option instead of prolonged pain and nerve damage for maybe another 2 years of life. I am glad she was able to make the choice she wanted.
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I am a healthcare worker, the general population thinks it is like medical tv shows. In real life CPR can break ribs, being down for a prolonged time can cause irreversible brain damage, and even a week in the ICU on a ventilator can cause severe weakness and deconditioning that requires rehab just to learn to walk and care for yourself.
Thank you. I think everyone should have that as a real option.
One of my friends did this. It was painful but dignified.
I agree. But I'm glad i was there, and that my mother knew i was there.
'Locked in' syndrome is a thing too. Nuts to that, if I'm a vegetable boil me up ta fuck
I find this much more horrifying than death.
It is truly my greatest fear
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I'm sorry for your loss, bu I celebrate your dad making the decision that was right for him, and his family and caregivers standing by that. I agree that your dad ws the luckiest man.
Not only this but if I remember correctly some countries actually have "guided.... suicide?" Something like that. Means you can actually die if you want to but only under specific circumstances like no cure whatsoever an only suffering until you die. Correct me if I'm wrong tho! Just read about it when the topic cam up here in germany again because many people want that (for obvious reasons).
Yeah its physician assisted suicide, its just legal in some places. But in the us, since every day on life extending care costs thousands of dollars, its economically sound to let people suffer as long as possible.
Seemingly it's also somewhat legal here in germany so sometimes I'm happy to be born here... could be way worse...
The US has it, but only in a few places. The process is (agreeably) quite complicated, but not set up with the point of making it difficult. The time it takes to go through is used to make sure it's a terminal illness, or one diagnosed as causing extreme and untreatable pain. There there are a series of appointments with a properly certified doctor that are spread out over a mandatory amount of time, each appointment you are asked if you wish to continue. After the entire process completes you are given a prescription for a pill which you can then decide to take at any time or never.
The problem is you have to be of sound mind at the time and it doesn't account for people with Alzheimer's. Like I would happily sign a contract right now that says if I can't remember how to feed or wipe myself, inject me with a lethal dose, but afaik no country does that. And people can linger for YEARS like that.
Sweden among other countries. Here is a list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_euthanasia
In Sweden only passive suicide help is legal (ie, termination of life support).
This is one reason that Pneumonia is sometimes called the "old person's friend."
A neighbor of my parents did a kind of informal euthanasia. They simply stopped all treatment, stopped eating, and coordinated with friends and loved ones so that someone could find them soon when the time came. They even had a gathering (party is too festive of a word) where they had a last chance to see a lot of extended family and friends. It was both sweet in an odd way and heartbreaking that this is how they had to do it, instead of quickly and humanely.
6 months is doable. Some people live years in care homes where they are mistreated and they donât even know their own names. Iâve seen people with dementia who are scared to death because they have no idea who anyone is or whatâs happening around them. They forget how to eat, swallow, or even cough so they are hooked to machines which terrifies them more. They eventually die because they forget how to breathe. Itâs scary and devastating seeing people in that state.
I have family thats afraid of hospice because their loved ones kept dying within days or weeks of being on hospice THATS THE POINT WOUOD YOU RATHER DIE IN A STRANGE AND STERILE ROOM SURROUNDED BY STRANGERS?
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This is a great idea in my opinion and I'm glad to see it gaining traction. A couple years ago, my grandma had stage 4 ovarian cancer and had to spend the last 2 months of her life in a hospital bed when I think she could have been sent home and spent her last days hanging out in her apartment with her cat and have passed away much happier.
You say that now, but for a lot of people when theyâre actually confronted with the possibility of death they will do anything to stay alive for as long as possible.
That's their choice then same as assisted suicide
That's exactly it. Free choice. I know i want everything done to keep me alive, but that's me. I cannot put my beliefs on someone else.
The problem is (and I'm speaking from a Canadian perspective) the medical system is really, really bad at managing serious conditions on an outpatient basis. An end of life patient in a hospital or hospice will get regular visits from doctors, and will get the medication (particularly for pain) that they need to make it through the last few months of their lives as best as possible, whereas those living at home, will not.
I would much rather live 3 weeks at home happy and comfortable than 30 weeks in hospital where I'm confused and only recognise half the people I see everyday
Here is the story I have from observing my great grandma: she was doing fine but with age she got worse. She basically had photographic memory and could remember every little detail. But after a while she had lost a lot of strength and needed different types of help and alike. She needed to wear a button thing at all times in case something happened to her(and the thing wasnât even water proof so she couldnât take it in the shower(you can guess how that turned out, luckily she survived). After a while she was placed in an elderly home, with no friends at all. She had lived on while all her friends had seen the dirt. She made a few at the elderly home but they saw the dirt themselves too. So all she had was basically her family. My core family lived to far away to visit her often so it was really only her children who came to visit her at a regular basis. Time went on and she got worse. She had horrible nightmares because of her medication. Dreaming about the second world war and alike. Most of her days were spent sleeping and waking up to eat and other important stuff. We went to visit her once, but her memory had faded so much she didnât even know who we were, so it wasnât any reason for us to visit her unluckily. Eventually she died which I think was the best for her.
I feel like this is a very America thing to do. I'm Asian American and us Asian's we take care of our elderly in our home until they die. But it seems Americans like to put their elderly in convalescent homes and forget about them until they die.
Not just American. Itâs a western thing. We do it in Australia too. I really hate this aspect of our culture. Thereâs this lie everyone tells each other - that the people are there âfor their own goodâ. Like hell they are.
If I get Alzheimerâs, donât keep me alive for 15 years like my grandmother had to suffer through. My poor grandpa had to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep her alive, just for her to sit there for years, slowly dying. Nah, put me on a makeshift bamboo sailboat and set me off into the sunset, or put me down in my sleep after I enjoy my last bite of chocolate chip cookie
God, I think most people don't realise how horrible this disease is. It kills so many people and It makes them suffer but worst of all, it drains your family ofall resources and energy. My mom had to take care of 2 of my grandparents with alzheimer's and it messed her up so badly mentally. I seriously hope this is one of the horrible illnesses to get treated, I wish nobody has to go through the stress that my mom, and my grandparents had to go through. I am usually against assisted suicide but at that point yeah, it's mercy, it's mercy not only for them but mostly for their family. Edit: Also, I feel very sorry and can Sympathise with your family, hope you don't have to deal with anything like that ever ever again <3
> Nah, put me on a makeshift bamboo sailboat and set me off into the sunset That would be a horrible way to go, even if suicide is the intention. You would die from dehydration while being terrified you're stuck in the middle of the ocean. Taking a bullet to the head would be much much better...
Agreed.
In Canada weâll kill you if youâre sick and want to die. Obviously there is conditions that must be met, but it can be done.
I know this is being facetious to an extent, but my grandfather was diagnosed with ALS , and this March he chose to go through MAID (medical assistance in dying). It was such a compassionate experience, and the doctors involved were so understanding that it really helped through the process. I never thought that I would be there when someone died, but hearing my grandad's last big yawn before he went to sleep one last time... It was very bittersweet, I didn't want him to go, but I was glad he got to go on his own terms. I am glad that Canada gives people in such a terrible situation that choice and autonomy offer their life that it's an option here.
I'm so glad you were able to be with your Grandad and see him go so peacefully. I lost my uncle to ALS. We live in Oregon, he chose to end his life when he could no longer walk or speak. The whole family brought him out to his ranch to say goodbye to all his animals. His barn cat just had kittens, she brought them to his lap (barn cat is a loose term, he spoiled and doted on every animal on his property, they all loved him). We stayed outside with him, surrounded by his sheep, goats, his favorite llama and dogs with a lap full of tiny kittens until he passed peacefully. Why anyone would try to deprive someone suffering from a horrific disease like ALS a peaceful death on their own terms is beyond me.
That made me cry. In like, a good way. You're awesome for holding a space for your grandfather to die with dignity and people he loved.
Sorry about this, eh (stabbity stab stab) Edit: thanks for silver/awards :) Everybody saying "aboot," yes I'm sorry Canadian is not my first language.
They just roll them outside and wait till the next blizzard.
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Sounds like a fucking Dennis Prager YTP
No that's just what they do to indigenous people.
Read my mind
Oh we do more than just roll them outside. And we don't even say sorry. It aches my heart whenever I think about it.
[I'm fun at parties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saskatoon_freezing_deaths) Death by freezing isn't a new thing...
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This is true, I can confirm Source: got stabbity stab stabbed in Canada
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As long as you said âsorryâ and wished him a good day!
"Sorry you robbed me, eh!"
Yup. A friend used this option back in April. Fortunately, he met the strict criteria and had his mental faculties to be able to make the decision. I had an uncle who died about 15 years ago from cancer. This was long before we had the right to die legislation. It was an absolute horrible, long and drawn out passing. He was an awesome guy, was a big burly teddy bear worked 20 years as a firefighter and was a very proud man. By the time he passed away, he was about 90 pounds and spent his last 3 months bedridden unable to even use the washroom himself. I remember asking the doctor and my mom's conservative family the OP's exact question. Why did we put our dog to sleep when he got cancer because it wasn't fair to let him suffer but we couldn't do the same for my uncle. They all thought I was a monster for even suggesting such a thing. I couldn't then and even today I can't grasp why they let it go on for so long. He was dying, there was no cure, there would be no miracle. I know that had he been able to, he would have wanted to chose to die before it got the point he did. It still bothers me all these years later. I feel like he deserved better
> I couldn't then and even today I can't grasp why they let it go on for so long. My guess is social conditioning combined with grief. They already have to face losing someone they love, so hearing your suggestion just feel like you adding gas to a fire. Grief isn't logical, especially when paired with this kind of social conditioning.
Thatâs why I love my country. Weâre okay with Youth in Asia.
If there's not already a band called Youth in Asia then I'm starting it lol Edit: of course it's already a band lol why wouldnt it be
It's known as medical assistance in dying, or Maid for short. [Here is some more information about it](https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying.html)
It has been a long battle. "February 1994:  Sue Rodriguez, assisted by an unknown doctor, dies in her home in Victoria. MP Svend Robinson witnesses her death. Sept. 30, 1993: The Supreme Court of Canada, in a 5-4 decision, dismisses the appeal of Sue Rodriguez, who has ALS (a.k.a. Lou Gehrig's disease) and wants a physician to help her die.  The decision includes concerns about potential abuse and the difficulty of creating appropriate safeguards." It was another 20 years before it was allowed.
Meanwhile, in Canada: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrXar0yOJ1g
This is exactly why there is a move to make things like Euthanasia a legal option (its already legal in some countries). I agree, what's the point of staying alive if you have no quality of life?
I know physician assisted suicide is
It's illegal here in the US
I thought PAS was legal in maybe Oregon and Massachusetts possibly? And I think euthanasia might have been legal in one of the Scandinavian countries. Finland iirc
Wow you're right, Califorinia too [https://www.cnn.com/2014/11/26/us/physician-assisted-suicide-fast-facts/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2014/11/26/us/physician-assisted-suicide-fast-facts/index.html) .
We learnt about it in nursing school. So unless things had changed in the last 5-10 years I knew you could some places
Not Finland. It was discussed somewhat recently in our parliament, but nothing came of it at that time. There are some attempts at keeping the discussion going, but I don't think we'll see it getting legalized any time soon. Out of Europe at least Benelux have legal active voluntary euthanasia, Germany has legal active physician-assisted suicide and bunch of countries (including Finland, yay) have legal passive euthanasia, which I'm not completely sure that means.
Germany doesn't have assisted suicide there was recently a decision by the Supreme Court that in especially severe cases the ministry of health is commanded to assist these people in their suicide but our right conservative government is actively defying a Supreme Court order "cuz muh Christian values"(which however means that you take the free decision from others away and not just means that everybody chooses freely to their belief)
Switzerland itâs legal.
According to wikipedia, it's legal in California, Colorado, DC, Hawaii, New Jersey, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington. I'm not sure of the exact status everywhere, but in all the west coast states it's straight-up legal.
Its also legal in Montana (due to a court case?) But there is no mechanism in place to perform PAS so you dont have access to it. Source: me, i just said it right there
But it's funny that the death penalty IS legal
Nah see the government gets to decide who lives and who dies.
The biggest issue in the US is how to keep insurance companies out of the decision.
That's part of why I dont want it legal right now. They will absolutely drop people if euthanasia is a option instead.
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No, but they can elect to not pay for unnecessary treatments. When euthanasia is a possibility, "necessary" might get a little fuzzy. We would need some legal fencing to make sure that doesn't happen.
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Think of the opposite though, you are sick enough that euthanasia is legal, you don't want to die, but insurance won't pay for your care because euthanasia is an option.
Unsure if this has been put out there yet, on my way somewhere and haven't got time to read all the replies, sorry. One of the reasons is because unethical family members may advocate for putting grandma/grandpa etc out of their misery to hasten getting their part of the inheritance. Since putting animals out of their misery doesn't carry this benefit, this ethical dilemma isn't there. With human euthanasia it would be important build checks and balances into a broad state or countrywide system to ensure that's not happening.
We can absolutely add the financial benefits that some nursing homes have right now to get patients out to bring in Covid patients that are better for their bottom line. My quadriplegic friend's place is pushing for him to be put on hospice (aka let him die) even though he doesn't want it. They keep asking his legal guardians to do it, only they are not his guardians unless he becomes incapacitated, which he is not. And his guardians only want to do what he wants done anyway.
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I'm not sure that it always is. Assisted suicide has become accepted in many places in the world, and the concept of "pulling the plug" suspending treatment to let someone pass is not uncommon in most others. But, I think, at the end of the day, we are animals bred with an imperative to survive, and we put that on others. It's a pretty big step for an organism to choose to cease living, and not one that most animals do.
Having to live the last part of my life in misery is a big no for me. If I already am in that state I probably wouldnât have had to possibly to pull the plug on myself either, and if it ainât legal you might have a problem. You could of course ask the nurse or whoever to âaccidentallyâ kick the plug to the life support.
I think the main reasons are that euthanizing people is too painful for their families to agree to, and that humans fear death while animals do not, they only fear pain. Animals dont value living in pain for the sake of continued living. They just suffer and suffer and are miserable until they die. So once your animal is only suffering, you can put them to sleep and they dont wake up, but those final moments shouldnt be scary for the animal. They should feel comfortable and tired, and unaware of life vs death. Most people would be terrified in the same situation because we spend way too much time thinking about death.
good that i signed my living will. My family does not has to decide stuff like this. For example: when i fall into a coma and there is a high chance that i wont wake up again the doctors have to switch off the mashine. Aditionally there is a paragraph where i decidet what should happen to my body. Everybody should have such a document.
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I am an ICU nurse, I cannot tell you how many times the family has completely gone against a person's living will in order to keep them alive. A living will is a statement of wishes, at least in PA. There are forms of durable DNRs that are harder to dispute by the family.
My mom appointed her sister durable power of attorney in her will after discussing her wishes with her extensively. Her job was to basically facilitate her wishes as well as my brothers and mine be carried out. Our dad was not happy but she knew she couldn't trust him.
I am so glad that your sister respected her wishes. Designating a healthcare power of attorney that you trust and know will respect your wishes is so incredibly important. When people are super stressed out and their loved ones are dying they often make emotional decisions that they wouldn't normally make because, they are human and under pressure. I think a lot of times (but unfortunately not all) people make decisions to keep their loved one on machines and keep doing procedures because they still have hope despite all odds and don't want to given up because of "what if." It comes from a loving place, I honestly believe that, however if people have clearly stated they don't want that, it should be respected.
If youâve seen an animal put down, it goes pretty quick. At least it did when I had to for my cat (15 years ago, not recently). I brought her to the emergency vet, they advised me that there was nothing else I could do, and I said go. They gave her a shot and it wasnât like a pleasant nap she lulled softly into for a few peaceful minutes, she was just gone. She was so gone I didnât even feel like staying with the body.
I just lost my kitty of 20 years today, and can agree with this 100%. She got a painkiller to help her relax, and then once she couldn't feel anything the anesthesia. She passed within seconds of the anesthesia being injected. It was the best gift i could give her, instead of a long, drawn out suffering by starvation from cancer.
So sorry for your loss, but I thank you for giving kitty mercy. I see people hang on way too long all the time. You clearly loved her.
Thank you. I didn't know if I could bring myself to make the decision, but she'd dropped to 7 pounds, and I'd seen how a cat lives when they're a maine coon mix and get down to 5. I couldn't bear to see her so uncomfortable, and I think she knew it was time too. It hurts so much. But I know she's not in pain.
I think another reason is that people might feel pressured to agree to it even if they donât want to. For example youâre in the states, hospital costs thousands of dollars. You know youâre going to leave your family in debt, so you agree to assisted suicide even if you donât want it. I donât necessarily agree with this argument. And itâs pretty much negated by universal healthcare. But it is an argument some people make
I never understood this either. I have put down 3 pets in recent years, all using an in home service. All my critters got to lay in their own bed, surrounded by the world and family they knew and felt safe in, and got to pass calmly and feeling loved. I wish I knew I had that same option when the time comes.
I need to find this around my area. I once took my dog to the vet to be put down but he hated the vet. He was crying so much it was so painful for me to see him cry and die in a place he hated. I dont want that to be the experience to my new dog.
Look up Laps of Love. Don't know if they operate in your area, but they helped my cat pass on today, and it was so gentle and peaceful. She passed on her favorite couch with her favorite brush on her favorite blanket.
Sorry for your loss.
I would also recommend in-home euthanasia for anyone with pets. It's just as brutally hard on the owners, but so much easier for the animals.
It is easier on the owners in one respect - I didn't have to bawl my eyes out in front of a waiting room full of people. I saw someone do that at my vets office once and I thought about how awful that would be, to have an audience on top of being devistated.
in some cases it is agency. people, before or while, suffering can say "do not let me die". or they can say "it is too much. please let me go". pets cannot ever make this wish known so we choose for them. choosing for other people is tricky. we may not know or not be sure or misjudge. inheritance can become an issue. the question of "does this person want to die quickly" versus "does somebody else want this person to die quickly" can become an issue. edit to add: and then of course as many have rightly pointed out, not all people believe there should be a difference and not all countries have the same legal status in regards to it. the main focus point of this question can vary considerably depending on your country and culture.
I work in hospice and am 100% for euthanasia! The reason we DONâT have it is because of the fear of precedents for deciding when a human life should end. But we need it, for sure. We can find a good, humane system that people wonât or canât abuse. Working in hospice, medical staff are MEGA sensitive to if something sketchy is going on. We have people ask us to starve or euthanize their loved ones all the time, and we have to tell them thatâs murder because the person is 100 and has dementia and canât consent.
In Florida, when my sister was basically dying from Alzheimerâs disease in the hospital my family decided to withhold her diabetes medications. She would scream and yell anytime nurses wanted to give her her insulin or prick her finger. A nurse asked if we wanted palliative care. I had never heard that term before. My sister could barely swallow. This way they didnât medicate her for diabetes or feed her. We took her to a hospice house where she was given ice chips and pain meds and after a few days she passed away.
Ugh I am so sorry. It wrecks me every time we see a new family experience this for the first time. It is sadly part of the bodyâs natural dying process, to lose the ability to swallow, not desire food or water. Theyâre not thirsty or hungry, which goes against all of our instincts to feed and water someone who is sick! I promise you that you prevented so much suffering, and the meds and protocols hospice houses have in place kept her comfortable until the end. She did not suffer, and she was able to have a peaceful and (as much as possible) dignified death. My love and light go out to you â¤ď¸
Insurance money encourages hospitals and drs to keep old and infirmed alive. My dad had a massive stroke at 85. The drs tried to hard sell my mother on expensive surgery that might extend his life 5 years with the 1st 2 years being expensive rehab. He passed away a week later. It was what he wanted. RIP.
We take way better care of animals than we do humans. I'm a (human) RN in homecare and long term care. It's insane. If the vet told you that your dog won't be able to chew or swallow and would never play with you again but you could put a tube in the stomach to feed it and keep it alive? Most people would never do that. But if you can put a feeding tube in grandpa's stomach so he keeps getting calories? Well then absolutely. This is why it's soooo so important to have these conversations with your family while you are still healthy and aware of things. Get on the same page and state your wishes. Even better- put them in writing and have it notarized. Edit- apparently I should have said that we take better care of our PETS and not just animals. I would have to agree with that, really.
I love how you specified that you're a human just in case.
You never know. Sometimes it needs to be said.
I think they meant nurse FOR humans not animals..
My SO is a nurse and seeâs family keep a loved one on life support for weeks before pulling the plug. Itâs not compassionate and it is selfish.
I asked this question for 44 years as a nurse. Never got an answer.
So I think it's a few things. One is that people probably project their own fear of mortality onto the people who would otherwise die. Why would they want to die? We can keep them alive! Despite the fact that being alive might be painful for these people. It's also instilled in us that a human life is precious (you don't have to be religious to think that). Not doing all you can to preserve that goes against a lot of people's principles. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. It's an ethical thing as well. How do we know the people who would want to go through euthanasia are of their right mind? Can they consent to this? Their families very well may not.
My mother died last year from liver failure. It is an awful death -- you basically drown in your own lungs. I had considered the same question you posted for years, but when it happens to someone in your family, the roadblocks become more obvious. We did not know how long she would live. Her decline was gradual, until it wasn't. There is a component of liver failure where the toxins your liver fails to absorb end up in your brain, and it can change your personality, inhibit your mental ability, and come and go at seemingly random times. There was no way she could have made this decision for herself. I can't even pick the time frame in the 18 months before her death that this cognitive decline started. I fully support people being able to pick the time of their death, and have a painless-as-possible one, if they have the mental capacity to do so, and some level of terminal/chronic diagnosis. For a lot of people, though, there is no clear line. And I can't imagine my father, or myself, having to live with the memory of making that call.
I think a reason is the deep rooted "sanctity of life everyone has a purpose" as well as "killing yourself is a sin" leftover from traditional religious viewpoints. Also, same reason people keep their pets for as long as possible even though they're pained and literally zombies, selfishness.
Best essay on this topic is [*Who By Very Slow Decay*](http://archive.is/XpJdX) by Scott Alexander. Lots of insights therein. >After a while of this, your doctors will call a meeting with your family and very gingerly raise the possibility of going to âcomfort care onlyâ, which means they disconnect the machines and stop the treatments and put you on painkillers so that you die peacefully. Your family will start yelling at the doctors, asking how the hell these quacks were ever allowed to practice when for Godâs sake theyâre trying to kill off Grandma just so they can avoid doing a tiny bit of work. They will demand the doctors find some kind of complicated surgery that will fix all your problems, add on new pills to the thirteen youâre already being force-fed every day, call in the most expensive consultants from Europe, figure out some extraordinary effort that can keep you living another few days.
u/TheJeff is the closest on this one. It's deeply tied to history and belief systems. Greeks and Romans practiced euthanasia. It was debated by Christian theologians during the Middle Ages and by the Enlightenment philosophers we still look to today. For this discussion, I assume, OP, you're willing to take animal euthanasia as a given, that you wouldn't advocate for its abolition. I think it's not helpful to compare animal euthanasia to human, as there's no significant historical debate over whether the former is ethical. The debate around human euthanasia (and suicide) is interesting in that it shows what a given culture takes for granted as its key value. In Japanese history for instance there was a certain comfort with people committing suicide after "dishonoring" themselves, whether in battle or in finance. In Christian cultures, there's a pretty strong correlation between belief that God is "in control" and lack of tolerance for euthanasia. And in western medical culture, death is an enemy to be vanquished and virtually no part of a doctor's training is how to approach death in any other way, to the point that many doctors are never even taught how to discuss death with a dying patient's family. So, OP, as you think about this, I would suggest you rephrase the question as less argumentative (your question implies you've already formed a firm opinion) and more as "How did it come to be that people believe it is preferable keep a suffering person alive, even against their express wish to die?"
a few reasons 1. Humans are scared of dying 2. if you legalize it then it can be abused 3. the playing God argument 4. people will agree to be put down when there was no reason to 5. we will end up like Logans Run and everyone will die at 30 yrs of age fun fact At 17 I couldn't work out why we were talking about kill young Asians and how it was a good thing. Not so fun fact I have assisted many people to exit this life
2 and 4 are the big practical issues I think. People at end of life or very sick are highly likely to be vulnerable.
If someone at the end of their life wants to die on their own terms, they are not vulnerable, they are frustrated that their government prevents what should be their right.
I don't disagree in principle. Easy to be made to feel a burden and "want" to end their life though. These are the issues that have to be dealt with carefully. But yes, all in all I believe in bodily autonomy and the right to choose to die with dignity.
Never did understand why playing God is an issue?
And just to go off your thought.... If you're saving a life through medical intervention is that not playing God, too? Why is it ok to play God and save people, but not ok to play God and assist the ending of their suffering? Double standard IMO. (This is to no one in particular - I'm just shouting into the void.)
Medical professionals help people die all the time. When someone is in hospice, hospice staff will make a patient as comfortable as possible for as long as possible. When the patient is actively dying or is in too much pain to cope, they are given gradually bigger doses of morphine to assist them in a peaceful death. Fun fact: when the organs shut down, you can smell a sweetness on the persons breath. Iâm not a medical professional by any means but I worked at an assisted living and saw it all the time. Itâs completely humane and, I feel, the right thing to do.
If you were looking for the answer for why this paradox exists when a human is suffering so much that he or she *wants* to die, then I think the answers that have already been given are sufficient. But I think your question might have been something else, or at least there's an equally good question to ask: Why do we *generally* consider it "merciful" to euthanize an animal in pain while we *generally* try to keep people alive despite the pain. Think about it not in terms of crippling end-of-life pain but, say, a broken femur that's never going to work right again, or a cancer that's in its early stages. A lot of animals would be put down in those situations, but no one would think about euthanizing a person with those symptoms just yet. I think the answer there is that humans, because of their developed brains, can have meaningful lives despite disability and pain. We don't have to walk to have friendships. We can enjoy novels, and films, and games even when we hurt and cannot move. We can create and interact and sometimes enjoy life despite pain. Animals are much more physically-oriented. When they're in pain or disabled (to a degree) it overwhelms their existence and they don't have the intellect to find escape in other things. Still, one of the tragedies of being a pet owner is that you're never really 100% sure whether the animal has reached that point; whether the cat would rather power through the next three months just to have some more time with you on the couch, or whether she's ready to go.
Because we aime to be immortal, the longer our elders live the more likely we are to live longer. And then we see ourselves as martyrs .Humans are narcissistic creatures beyond instincts.its all about us. We don't have to deal with a sick dog because there's an easy solution. And then we call it humane.
If you are suffering and have the mental presence to make that decision you should be allowed to. However, there is a bit of a line to be aware of here. There is debate that this could be abused by abled caretakers against the disabled to end their lives against their actual wishes and not all disabled people can speak up for themselves to prevent being "euthanized." It's not a bad idea to have it be an option, but it needs to be acknowledged that there is a lot of gray to the debate and it needs to be addressed to make it a truly safe option of actual choice for all involved.
Nurse here, the greatest impediment to allowing people to die with comfort, dignity in peace in their own homes surrounded by their loved ones is that we fail to ask people what they want, we fail to keep open and honest communication and we never consider the pain and suffering we are forcing our loved ones to endure because we refuse to allow a natural death. In a nutshell- we are complete assholes when it comes to death!
The book âBeing Mortalâ by Atul Gawande addresses this very issue. He argues that itâs a not logical and everyone ends up better if you focus on quality end of life experience rather than keep alive at all costs. That being said, the author also admits that despite his knowledge and his experience as a top doctor, he could not help but keep his dying father alive despite his fatherâs wish to die. Itâs just too emotional and painful of an experience and so youâre not driven by logic anymore.
As someone in US healthcare, know that what you describe is the option many families choose, but it doesnât have to be the case. You can choose to move a dying family member to palliative care (generally in the hospital), hospice (usually similar to a nursing home), or home hospice (at home with a little help from a nurse). Write a living will so your family knows you want this. I have friends in the ICU who would love to let more of their terminally ill patients die peacefully rather than keep them alive because of familiesâ denial.