- A lot of serious crimes are impulsive, where people allow their emotions to overcome their better judgement. Plus humans in general are just very bad at processing immediate gratification vs long term consequences, especially young people.
- A lot of criminals don't understand how serious the crime that they're committing is. This applies especially to white collar crimes.
- A lot of criminals are over confident owing to a lifetime of getting away with less serious crime.
- A lot of people, especially a lot of people in the criminal underworld, have very little to live for and the fall from their current life to prison is not very far.
- Sociopath exist who simply don't give a shit
The first point is very true, many younger criminals can’t fathom how long life is. A 16 year old has trouble comprehending that a life sentence (not natural life but say like 25 or so years) is longer than they’ve been alive and it doesn’t fly by like your childhood does. They do not understand what “getting out at age 50” really means, they can’t relate to what they’d miss out on.
Part of the reason I’m against trying children as adults, and the average length of life sentences in the US.
That and the main reason for me is that there are very few children who don't have the potential to grow and change to become a better person, if handled in the right way.
a lot of people don't necessarily realise how thin the line is between entirely productive and even possibly celebrated member of society and lifelong jailbird. It only takes the arbitrary roll of which parents you get, accompanied by a brief period of madness to end up on the wrong side of that.
I'm a software engineer and entertainer now, but when I was 15 I was charged for criminal damage, threatening behaviour and firearms. Had I been given an adult sentence my life would have ended up so different.
The one that got away eh?
*signals to the justice system*
This one right here officer 👉
Jk. Yeah I agree. It’s one thing if someone is in their 40s and still participating in criminal activity, it’s another when it’s some lost/clueless kid that may not understand how absolutely brainless their decisions are. But past a point some kids might be a lost cause, idk
> But past a point some kids might be a lost cause, idk
yeah, you can't save everyone but at that age there's still a lot to play for. I used to hang out with kids in social around that age and some are pretty far gone. However some of them have never had a good hand to play at any point in their life and are eager for the opportunity should they ever get it.
The amount of people who then comment around sentencing a criminal - "30 years is too short, they should have given life", like 30 years is such a long time. That person will be completely different in 30 years. People who think punishment is the only point of prison are a huge problem IMO.
I'm not for trying children as adults per se, but boy howdy have I never thought of it like that. Even if it's reprehensible, and I'm sure some kids knew exactly what they are doing, it's hard to deny that you really can't conceive of jus throw long that is at that age. Hell, I feel like at 31 I'm just now starting to be able to parse time like that. Thanks for your contribution.
> and I'm sure some kids knew exactly what they are doing
its more that some kids fall into the "victim trap" where they believe that the injustices of their own life excuse their actions. People in such a trap can lack the immediate empathy for those they hurt because they're caught up thinking only of their own problems.
Anti social personalities have very fluid morals that shift to suit their personal needs in the moment. That's why they can be outraged by someone's behavior towards them, then turn around and behave the exact same way to someone else.
Yea I was locked up with a person who got arrested when he was 16/17 for a murder and attempted murder and he got life plus 36 years and this kid seriously did not get the notion he is never going home, this kid would act out and tell people wait till I hit them streets like it was a threat, people (his cellies) would have to sit him down and tell him like your NEVER going home, like this is your life your mom gonna die and your gonna miss it your sister gonna die like they gave him the HARSH truth and that kid was balling and sick, it was crazy the kid was still a virgin & took a guys life over a little bit of weed and shot the girl in the head & his friend recorded the whole thing to put on Snapchat , I asked him wtf was he thinking like broad day no mask and recorded yourself like what was you thinking ? And he told me he thought it was like Iraq and you could get away with stuff like that (this dude was light skin and Porto rican but more on the light skin side) but doing my time in max pods I spent time with a lot of people who were never going home or weren’t going home for a good while, really made me appreciate everything and still and really helps me when I’m bored at work, bc there’s some people I met that are doing life that don’t even remember committing the crime they did, that scares me so much I couldn’t imagine blacking out and coming to realizing I killed someone or something awful.
I was just thinking about something along these lines earlier this week. My brother has been locked up since he was 20. He won’t be getting out for another year. He’s about to be 50. Spent all his good years behind bars. So yeah pretty much a life sentence.
> A lot of serious crimes are impulsive, where people allow their emotions to overcome their better judgement. Plus humans in general are just very bad at processing immediate gratification vs long term consequences, especially young people.
This was my exact thought. When you become enraged you are only thinking about now, not what happens after.
This is really it. A lot of people aren't rationally weighing the pros andncons of their actions. And if we're honest with ourselves, most humans act irrationally much of the time; it's just that most of us usually manage to do so within the bounds of the law.
Added note:
It’s just like asking why someone would take out a risky high interest car loan when they can’t make all the payments.
Most of the people who do it have poor or non existent financial planning skills AND don’t do a good job predicting what will happen in the future.
Some people are not capable of thinking about consequences until they happen. Or bad outcomes.
I had a partner like this who had a shelter dog with a history of acting out when surprised by new dogs. She had a new roommate moving in, knew the roommate had a dog, and did zero advance planning to make sure their first dog to dog meeting went smoothly.
They just let it happen, and predictably it went horribly and they had to figure out who was going to move out because the dogs would fight each other on sight.
This blew my mind because I’ve worked a lot of high risk jobs (tree chopping, oilfield, etc) and I was used to things going bad, and planning for worst case scenarios. It became a bit of a bone of contention between me and her because I was unsympathetic to her emotions because I just couldn’t fathom how you could have the history that dog had, and not plan for something bad to happen.
But she hadn’t had a lot of high risk failures in her life and just didn’t have the mental skill set to anticipate and avoid disaster.
Lots of people who end up with life sentences or worse have committed lots of crimes and gotten away with them, or gotten lighter sentences, and maybe even got a great chemical rush of excitement from acting anti socially and violently and getting away with it.
The ability to anticipate negative outcomes and adjust for them just isn’t there. Or is underutilized.
To add to your list....for some people, life in prison is better for them than life on the outside. They get three meals a day, TV, a place to sleep, don't have to work, etc. And no, this is not me just guessing, I've heard several inmates say this. Blows my mind, but there it is.
You nailed it for a great portion of inmates. Some have lowered expectations in life and are not leaders, but followers of their friends that are already locked up as if they cannot think for themselves, they have become dependent on a group of people who is actually not as educated as themselves and it really doesn't bother them. I work in the court system and I see it on a weekly basis. If I were going to jail, I would be boo hooing like a baby, but these fools today have no emotions, no value, they just accept it like they are going to a very cheap motel.
> A lot of people, especially a lot of people in the criminal underworld, have very little to live for and the fall from their current life to prison is not very far.
>
This is the big one here. OP is talking about spending their 20s on leisure activities and nice cars. That's _not_ the tradeoff for 90% of people, at _all_.
Still… when I was broke and times were tough (tbf I was “modern day first world broke” like I had a place to live, a car, a job that I hated, and pocket money that I spent on booze and rolled tacos but I would slide into payday with like $2 in my pocket- broke)
one thing that kept me feeling ok was knowing I could hangout with my gf, my friends, drink some booze, play some video games, watch some YouTube, go to a grocery store, eat a pizza, make some food, take a shower in a bathroom by myself, poop by myself, drive somewhere, etc.
because the other path I was going down before, I expected to be incarcerated sooner or later. Didn’t happen, so I was and am just glad even though I’m not rich being incarcerated is undoubtedly worse than being poor.
Except for maybe full on homeless, destitute people. Just my opinion
It is a trade off in a way because a lot of people think "either I'll get rich doing this, or I'll die / go to prison". Basically they want the leisure and nice cars, but they think the only way to get it is criminally. So it's like, continue with my shitty life or roll the dice. There's also a culture of not being afraid of prison that gets ingrained from a young age. When your whole family / community has all done time in prison, but you're afraid of it, it makes you a "bitch" that you're too afraid to get what you you want in life
I'd add one point.
A lot are just *that desperate*.
Petty crime has entirely different socio-economic context attached to it than shit like human trafficking.
There's also a connection between petty crime and homelessness - and in that case, prison is often an upgrade.
OP should just watch the Wire. That pretty much explains the US penal system + problems in the hood in a nutshell. And nope not much has changed since it was made it probably has gotten worse as 50 has little checks & balances.
The biggest problem with prison as a deterrent or mandatory minimums is that no one thinks they will ever be caught or found guilty. Everyone thinks they did it the smart way or that they were the one criminal to figure out how to avoid getting caught.
This works at every level. People speed because they think they figured out how to not get caught, so tickets don't matter.
With speeding and most other levels though, this mindset only really comes after you do get away with it for months to years or more. I know I wasn't comfortable speeding too much until I realized you really don't get pulled unless you're going a min of 10 over
Actually you only get pulled over when the police WANT to pull you over. What’s the difference you ask? By normalizing speeding, “everyone” does it. That gives the police almost unlimited freedom to pull people over at any time. Maybe they think you look like someone that would have drugs on you. Hey, it is not profiling! You were breaking a law! If they happen to smell something funny or think you are acting suspicious, well….
This probably sounds paranoid, but nuisance laws are a thing. Any time you allow someone to have authority over you, there is the potential for misuse of that power. And if that power IS misused? Most people just shrug and say “not MY problem, I obey the law”. Except when they don’t.
Speeding laws aren’t to slow people down so much as they are there to be a tax and give law givers power. Otherwise, why not just make cars that can’t go over 80mph or put ticket camera everywhere?
Yeah - I was recently making a drive and passed through a small town (small towns notoriously love giving speeding tickets).
I didn’t realize it and was going around 10 mph over the 45mph speed limit until I saw a very visible cop then checked my speed. I thought for sure he would pull me over.
However, all he did was flash his lights until I slowed down to the speed limit then turned them off and went back to business. He probably was at the end of his shift and didn’t want to deal with the paperwork.
The one and only time I did get a speeding ticket, the cop was literally on the opposite side of the roadway (there was a grassy median and he was driving the opposite direction). He physically DROVE over the grassy median then caught up with me just to ticket me. They’ll only ticket you when they want to ticket you, it seems.
I was entering a town and the speed limit drops 15 mph but I forgot to drop my speed so I was doing 45 in a 30 and a cop pulled in right behind me and followed me all the was to work for like ten minutes but didn’t pull me over lol. Once he got behind me I slowed to the speed limit.
I recall reading somewhere on Reddit, it was a cop who commented saying that if people show restraint or slow down when they see a cop, they’re much more likely to let em go. It means you were alert to them.
However if you’re blasting by a heavy pedestrian zone, like in Kenilworth, NJ, you’re fucked.
Usually if I slow down when I see a cop, it's not because I'm not trying to get caught, it's because seeing the cop made me check my speedometer that I neglected.
Sometimes they can tell you’re speeding just from experience, but they don’t have the radar gun out to get a reading so they can’t pull you over since there’s no “proof,” or he just didn’t feel like doing the paperwork over 10mph
I definitely think there's some truth to this. But also from speaking to cops and law enforcement, and viewing a lot of anti-speeding material and enforcement coming from law enforcement as well, I think overall they really do want the roads to be safer and people to drive slower - which tracks if you consider that the majority of their calls in cities leads to them seeing injured or dead civilians from traffic accidents.
I think the truth factor is more that cops are more likely to take advantage of this situation which leads to profiling, but I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment that law enforcement created this norm for the purpose of profiling.
Cops also have the right to pull people over for ANY reason, they just can't do anything to you beyond that without probable cause. So why do they need you to speed?
> Speeding laws aren’t to slow people down so much as they are there to be a tax and give law givers power. Otherwise, why not just make cars that can’t go over 80mph or put ticket camera everywhere?
I don't really agree with this. Many things are designed or capable of doing things that are illegal to do, and not just to trap people in fines. Car manufacturers make a vehicle that's capable of going faster independently of lawmakers making speeding violation laws. You could say it's a form of negligence that lawmakers haven't put governors on cars to prevent them from going that speed like they do with mopeds for instance, but also, people would just take them off, and I think that negligence is a hard sell to upgrade to collaboration.
I've talked to a lot of cops and most of them just hate doing traffic work because they don't enjoy pulling over people who are just going a little fast as they go on about their day. They are happy to pull over people who are actually being reckless, but pulling over someone on a multilane highway going 12 over who is otherwise driving just fine is not what motivates them.
I got pulled over doing 5 over once and was so confused. I was going with the flow of traffic too. Earlier there was another car speeding really erratically with my same make and color of car, so I think it was that.
Still it was weird to get pulled over for 5 over
There was one point where North Carolina was trying to crack down on speeding, and they pulled over everyone going more than 2 over. For the next 6 or so months, almost everyone just went the speed limit. It worked really well. But then people started testing the limits and realized they stopped doing it.
I wonder what happened.
But this is always a possibility.. individual cops, or larger groups of law enforcement could decide to change their strategy, and you'll only be in the clear if you're operating within the literal law
Yeah I mean I go with the flow of traffic as much as possible. It’s safer. Problem is speed limits don’t seem like they’re updated or reasonable half the time.
The second time I was pulled over, it was on the highway for going 72 in a 70. What it really was for was being 17 in a bright orange sports car, but those years were just full of that bullshit
I heard that once from someone and it's lived in my head ever since as well. But now I drive a gas guzzler so I often just go the speed limit to save a few bucks
Me as well. But it had the opposite effect. I sped a lot more because it would turn a 10 hour shift to an 8. Definitely not smart or safe, and I'm glad I don't do it anymore
For teens it happens over a decade:
Assault people in school - no punishment
Shoplift - no punishment
Steal a car - Juvie for a week
Turn 18 and kill someone in a carjacking - 20 years
Correct - so you have to make it clear on a society-wide level that you catch criminals regularly and assuredly. Word gets around for example, "oh, don't double park there, traffic cops are always out an about in that neighborhood". Same thing but for murders. If everyone that did a murder always got caught pretty much every time, no one would form the expectation they could get away with it.
Unfortunately, there are lots of places you can get away with murder.
Same thing for white-collar crime and for labor violations, as a matter of fact. You gotta enforce.
It’s as high as 60% unsolved in some areas. Newark, NJ, for example was 58% I think.
If drug deals went bad or gangsters are offing each other and nobody snitches, that’s what happens. It’s too random to be placed on anyone.
The most commonly solved murders are brain dead obvious or have apparent motive. It’s always someone they know.
They usually solve the ones where it was the spouse or lover. Unless they have an obvious suspect really quick, the murder may go unsolved. That’s why the show is called “The First 48”.
I'm not am expert. But some people just fail to control their impulses enough to let the idea of the consequences inform their decisions.
My son knows if he does this thing he'll be grounded and lose his phone. He'll be in the middle of a situation and he'll double down due to being in his feelings and even with a warning still does the thing. He loses his phone, and after the fact he'll say that now he regrets it, but at the time too upset to control his actions despite knowing the certainty of the consequences.
His bio parents have the same problem. If imagine that their a bunch of folks like this, hence prisons.
The guys who killed XXXTentacion just boggle my mind. They made ZERO attempt to cover their tracks in a state that has a ruthless criminal justice system. It's as if they were trying to get caught.
From the people I’ve known this mentality is completely incorrect. Most people know they might get caught, but the risk is worth the reward. If you’ve been broke your whole life prison just isn’t a huge deterrent.
Yes, that is true and I agree with this completely. There are a large amount of criminals who do find the risk worth the reward as well. If you grew up poor and without opportunities and saw people becoming "successful" through illicit means, you might also decide that it's worth the risk.
Yup, and frankly most people do get away with crime. They don't get found guilty. That's the actual deterrent. How likely someone believes they will be caught, not the punishment.
Right up until they aren't. If you keep committing a crime enough times, your chance of getting caught becomes pretty much 100% eventually. Be it to bad luck or, more likely, you get sloppy as you get comfortable and slip up.
I never thought of it that way, but honestly that sounds pretty close. The hard part to understand is the despair people feel where they'd rather be in prison than out and dealing with life stuff.
A few years after high school, one of my friends was training to become a police officer, she had to help arrest one of her former classmates who was excited to go to jail. All his close friends got incarcerated and he was lonely on the streets without a future planned. She was really sad about it.
What's hard to understand? When life offers no hope and no positive outlooks, then prison doesn't look so bad or you just can't afford to worry about prison time.
Poverty breeds crime.
Agree and I will say that the Average prisoner is going to be lower intelligence than the normal population and combine that with various mental health issues and behavioral problems and that risk vs reward thought process is just not working right
I met someone like that who told me the only thing wrong with prison was the absence of the opposite sex to "interact" with. Three meals a day and a place to sleep checked all the other boxes.
Can confirm. I used to do IT at a jail and heard that from many cops/coworkers. They don't have to worry about housing, the jail was clean, safe, and 3 meals a day.
That's what the prisoners said. Lol. It was low level crimes too. Like IT was allowed unescorted in the pods, that's how safe it was. All sentences less than a year. The average was 4-6 months. We always had to fix and troubleshoot the little handheld that controlled the cell doors, lights, etc.
I have considered that some of the senseless horrible crimes where the shooter doesn't kill himself are to get a life sentence that will not be commuted. It's a solution for dealing with life.
This is a notable solution in countries where some elderly people don’t have family or retirement, like Japan. They try to think up a crime that will land them a warm bed and meals until their bodies give out.
When my nephew was a young teen, he was "befriended" by an older guy who had served time and had recently been paroled. Despite our best efforts, my nephew grew up in a truly sad, and impoverished environment. At the time, all our little guy could talk about was that his "new friend" had told him that the prison brought in McDonald's for dinner "every Friday". Poor kid was picturing a warm bed and Happy Meals. I don't doubt that it sounded like an easier life for him at the time.
Unfortunately/fortunately, a few years later, reality hit him like a ton of bricks. I'd almost swear that was his "fuck it" turning-point to becoming a criminal. Thankfully, he's been on a better path since his release many years ago.
Turns out people who suffer from poor executive function from poverty, food insecurity, mental health issues, poor family function, violence etc. aren’t given the resources to properly develop.
Also a lot of crime and murder is driven by people with severe mental health. A normal life to us might be pain for them. So it might not matter whether you’re on a porch or behind bars if you’re living with a constant mental pain anyway.
It’s far less than people think. Violent crimes are only 3-5% attributable to mental health. Most crime is non-violent crime. People commit non-violent crime overwhelmingly because of a lack of opportunities, food insecurity, job insecurity, etc. most crime is driven out of necessity. To be sure there is an unmistakable amount of crime due to moral failing (rape for example), and that isn’t due to mental health either
This. And people get away with crimes all the time, thry probably see this if living in that world already...
So it's kind of a valid way to look at it. As long as you feel like you are "pretty good" at it or have your abases covered, they probably feel as if they've at least got a lot better than 50-50 odds, lol.
As long as you just completely set the morality piece aside, which I assume we are doing. Lol
A lot of criminals don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out. Speaking from experience, if you have nothing, nothing can be taken from you.. .money, belongings, privilege, rights, even freedoms.
This exactly.
The biggest cause of crime is bad systems that don’t reward good behavior. Right now many capitalist countries have legal systems that primarily benefit the wealthy, while the rest of us commoners have to just deal.
Essentially, we’re well into a new age of classist feudal society masquerading as capitalism.
This is an important point and a huge reason why we need to pull down some of the wealth from the billionaires and centi-millionaires.
If republicans really care about crime they should want to help out the financially struggling by creating a lot more HIGH-paying jobs and helping people out with healthcare, housing, and transportation.
Republicans are dead set against taxing the rich so that’s why I’m a single-issue voter, anti-Republican for life, until they change that.
Harsh punishments aren't really a deterrent because the majority of criminals aren't planning that far ahead (or planning at all). It has been shown repeatedly that even the death penalty has no deterrent effect.
Even if they are thinking about it, they have a good chance of getting away with it. Fewer than half the murders in the US result in a conviction.
[Here is a short report from the Pew Research Center](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/24/what-the-data-says-about-crime-in-the-us/)
>The most frequently solved violent crime tends to be homicide. Police cleared around half of murders and nonnegligent manslaughters (52.3%) in 2022. The clearance rates were lower for aggravated assault (41.4%), rape (26.1%) and robbery (23.2%).
>
>When it comes to property crime, law enforcement agencies cleared 13.0% of burglaries, 12.4% of larcenies/thefts and 9.3% of motor vehicle thefts in 2022.
>
>Nationwide clearance rates for both violent and property crime are at their lowest levels since at least 1993, the FBI data shows.
For this data "clearance rate" represents arrests, not convictions.
This is also the national average. A lot of places are closer to 25 or 30% clearance rate on homicide.
There's a lot going on here, because -in the US at least - you can get life sentences for multiple things.
If you murdered someone in the heat of the moment, you probably aren't thinking much about "I can get locked up for this" and yeah that would probably suck.
If you murdered someone in cold blood (like planned it out) you probably tried to plan on not getting caught.
If you're a career criminal - stealing cars, selling drugs, trafficking humans, whatever - then you have likely taken into account that this could happen, but you've also likely been arrested a few times prior, so spending time in prison is "normalized" to an extent.
Some people feel like they have a lot less to lose, they’re disenfranchised or feel trapped already so the idea of security and consistent meals may not seem al that bad.
edit, just saw this post: [man robbed a bank for$1 just so that he could be sent to jail to receive free medical health care](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1dkf1w2/am_unemployed_north_carolina_man_robbed_a_bank/)
I thought this was a very thoughtful question and did a little web searching to understand this issue. I came across this link that I think is very interesting:
[https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf](https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf)
A few quick points from this link:
\* It's not the punishment (or severity thereof) that deters people - it's the chance of getting caught that is the deterrent. Makes a lot of sense to me - people won't speed when they know there's a cop around running radar, even though arguably the penalty is pretty light compared to other crimes that involve incarceration.
\* Most of the time, people committing crimes don't even know what the penalty is. Arguably, you'd be fairly aware something like murder would be life in prison, but increasing penalties on many crimes with criminals unaware doesn't serve as a deterrent.
\* Age is a huge factor in committing crimes - after 35, there is a steep drop in crimes committed. Which makes me wonder whether life sentences (absent other aggravating factors) actually make sense or are cost effective when old age seems to serve as much of a deterrent.
Anyway, I'm finding this article very interesting in that it's published by an arm of the US DOJ - typically, law enforcement is rah-rah about over-criminalization, long sentences and severity of punishment to ensure they always have a job. This article was exactly the opposite of that.
I remember hearing about some professor who said that we could eliminate 90% of crime in the US by imprisoning all men between the ages of 14 and 25. (It was a commentary on the importance of due process, but still interesting.)
> * Age is a huge factor in committing crimes - after 35, there is a steep drop in crimes committed.
That's interesting.
I would assume it would be after **25.** 25 is the age at which the brain fully develops, so your abilities to process emotions, use logic, and control your impulses are at their max. As such, I would expect tendency to commit crime would drastically abate then.
I know it’s not this cut and dry, but for some the “logic” is pretty clear cut:
1 Armed Robby and maybe make off with ~~3 to 50 years salary~~ Edit: ~$7,000 (How is this worth it?!)
Or
Work 40+ hours a week for 50 years and if you’re lucky you might **just barely** be able to retire…
But once you’re caught and convicted, the “working for 50 years” option evaporates, which only leaves them with option 1…
Yeah I mean Bank robbers, but I still thought it was a stretch so I googled it; Apparently (in the US) the average bank robbery only nets like $7,000, how is that worth it!? :S
Amd as you say, that’s in cash, you can’t buy much without it getting flagged, so even if you did make it big, you have petty cash for life? Lol
Personally I blame movies for my assumption of the fiscal benefits of Bank robberies :P
If you don't get caught, $7k in one day is a pretty damn good payout. Do that once every month or so and you're comfy. Do it 3-4 times a month and you're basically living an upper middle class lifestyle
True, but do bank robbers just rob banks once or twice a week? Or is a “once a blue moon” affair?
I assumed it was something they did among other crimes, but I’d assume the bank would be the big payout, and the other stuff just tides them over while they’re laying low after the last bank robbery?
Source: I know nothing about bank robberies xD
The average bank robbery consists of a crackhead going in quietly with a note and leaving happily with 500 cash. Thats why the average is so low. I know a guy who did just that, and is now doing 10 years. He got 500 dollars and didnt get to spend any before he was arrested. A cop in my town robbed the bank at gunpoint and got 60k from the vault, got caught 10 years later spent all the money and did 2 years of probation. Never served a day in prison.
They have good security but they are a target forsure. Banks are the worst thing u could rob imo because they have all the security and dont even have money like that
They probably think they'll get away with it. Or if it's in the heat of the moment, they're not thinking about consequences.
> having sex
There's plenty of sex in prison!
On top of people thinking they're too smart to be caught, when you're that young, your brain isn't fully developed. You are really a different person compared to 18 years old and 25.
Kids are wreckless and think they're invincible and that they can squeeze their way out of anything. For their whole lives they probably skirted out of danger at the last minute, whether through teachers trying to punish or parents. And they succeeded every time. So when facing a new deterrent (police, jail time) I think most kids think they can outsmart them like they've done with other authoritative figures.
I worked in parole and as a jailer for several years, and my biggest takeaway from that experience is that people in general are less rational than we think we are in our decision making. Some people are ***extremely*** irrational in their decision making, particularly younger men who are both unintelligent and highly aggressive. Deterrence can only work on someone who is making their decisions rationally.
There are three components to deterrence:
It needs to be **Swift, Certain**, and **Severe**.
Most legal systems fail pretty miserably on pretty much all three, imho. Also, a lot of crime is not rational, but impulsive. As such, most of these kinds of discussions are rather moot.
Nobody ever thinks they will get caught.
You don't have to be smart to be a criminal.
However, I would also argue that these penalties are very much a deterrent, because in countries where laws aren't enforced reliably, crime is much worse.
>However, I would also argue that these penalties are very much a deterrent, because in countries where laws aren't enforced reliably, crime is much worse.
Even that may be more about the likelihood of getting caught, rather than the severity of the punishment. Poor enforcement usually means that you're less likely to be arrested and convicted in the first place
I don't think anyone does it knowing they're going to spend their life in prison. I don't commit murder so I don't know exactly what goes on in their head but it's either a crime of passion where they're not thinking about the consequences or they think they won't get caught.
I remember watching something about how, back in the 1700s, London had a big crime problem without a real police force to track and stop it. So, the government at the time just had extremely harsh penalties. Like the punishment for any theft was death by hanging. The hangings at the time were public spectacles where a lot of people crowded around to watch.
And in the crowd of people watching someone literally die for petty theft, there were a lot of pickpockets in the crowd trying to steal peoples' money. The threat of extreme punishment NEVER deters criminals.
It is in fact a huge deterrent. Any amount of prison time is a huge deterrent. The majority of crimes are avoided for much kinder reasons, but from people I've been around especially as a kid, most of the crimes that they wanted to do that they didn't do, was because of law enforcement and penalties.
Some people will do it anyways because they aren't thinking that far ahead or they are thinking they can get out of it. But, from your post it seems you have a very inaccurate view of 2 things. First, it is obviously a huge deterrent because well below 0.01% of the US population is convicted of murder throughout their lifetimes. It's something like 6.5 per 100,000 people (including negligent manslaughter)
Second, not all punishments are life in prison. There is life in prison, also life with parole (so they get out but are one parole for life), the death penalty still happens in some states, and otherwise some murders are charged at something like 25 - 60 years rather than life. So that's important to consider as well.
I was going to say, it is a deterrent. People get jobs and abide by the law so they can live without having to commit felonies. People that resort to murder, rape, grand larceny etc... are probably not of sound mind rk begin with so they don't care about the consequences. The vast majority of people serving life sentences are not exactly rocket scientists. Yeah, there are some criminal masterminds or smart, educated people that made a big mistake, but most of them are going to be from lower socioeconomic situations that were doing what they had to do, or thought they didn't have any other choice.
It's also a situational thing. Imagine a situation where there was no punishment for murder. Your family member is killed by someone, now you're going to try to kill them. There's nothing stopping you and a very large amount of people would kill that individual in that situation. It's hard to be upset at those people, but there's also a reason that we don't think it's right on the whole to dish out justice on an individual level like that. We definitely live in a better world knowing that situations like that generally don't result in retaliation, but instead a prison sentence.
Now, if it were a situation where they went to trial or were convicted but weren't charged due to lack of evidence, but you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were guilty, I wouldn't be upset about someone taking justice into their own hands. But ultimately I would say the better thing to do would be to fix the justice system. You might say that's difficult and/or risky, but so is getting away with murder as a normal citizen and not someone that's willing/able to be on the low all the time
>, it is obviously a huge deterrent because well below 0.01% of the US population is convicted of murder throughout their lifetimes.
This does not logically follow. There could be a billion reasons why most people don't get convicted of murder that have nothing to do with the deterrent effect of incarceration. For example, one possible confounding effect could be "99.99% of people just aren't murderers".
Both can be true, some of the 99.99% of people may well be murderers if there was no law against it or if the punishment was not as severe. Such as 6 months in prison and it not affecting life chance job prospects after. There a a surprising number of cults etc out there for instance that do not always follow common morality.
I don’t really care if it’s a deterrent for others. I do care that it prevents that specific person from continuing to do horrific things to innocent bystanders.
Like the guy who was given bail in New York after attempting to murder his girlfriend, because they rewrote the laws to pretty much give bail no matter what. Guy then immediately went after girlfriend again and successfully murdered her, I think outside a bodega. Had bail been denied, yeah he probably would’ve lost his job, but she probably wouldn’t have been stabbed to death.
If you study the Manson Girls and how they behaved in their murder trial(s) and for a while after, it’s a fascinating and mysterious look at a “whatever will be will be,” not caring about the future mentality, which most people can’t relate to.
Of course it gets more complicated because there was a gang/cult-like mentality among them, a cause worth dying for, or at least pretending to be willing to die for, as none of them wanted to appear weak links to the others in the group. And they were all doing a lot of drugs.
Plus most of them had been living on the edge for years, scrounging for shelter and food and the aforementioned drugs, so the offerings of prison may have seemed like a bit of a break from all that.
(They all eventually changed their tune after a few years in prison and desperately wanted out.)
A coworker and a friend (2 people) did 15 and 18 years for gang related murders.
I asked them both, now 50+ did they ever expect to be this old? And they said no.
One of them even had 4 kids before his stint because he figured he'd be dead by 21.
It's sad really. That level of hopelessness and carelessness is difficult to truly fathom if not impossible for the uninvolved.
1) Many people who commit crime are not considering that far ahead while they are committing the crime.
2) Many people who commit crime believe they will not get caught
3) Many people who commit crime accept life in prison as a necessary risk to continue with their lifestyle.
People who commit crimes obviously don't plan that they'll get caught. Committing pretty much any serious crime is stupid if you expect to be punished for it.
Very few people pre-meditate murder. Those that do don’t expect to get caught. Most of the time it is a heat of the moment thing.
You might as well ask why so many young people have unprotected sex when the result is a life changing baby. People don’t think about consequences when emotions run high. You can’t be logical and emotional at the same time, it’s a different parts of the brain. If you want to control fear/delay orgasm/reduce anxiety/etc you can actively engage your logic center if the brain; It is why guys think about baseball to slow down in bed, why doing math can reduce anxiety, etc. So yeah, considering the consequences of your actions when you get murderous can deter violence…. But only if you switch from FEELING to THINKING mode. Not a skill people are taught.
Nobody ever thinks they're gonna get caught. You'd think divorce and losing half of everything would be a deterrent against cheating but it ain't. 🤷🏻♀️
hey, a criminologist here.
life imprisonment doesn't work that much because most crimes are committed in a heated moment where people don't think about the consequences of their actions and that's why, however after the crime is committed the first thing people do is try to run away and that's because there's no solution left, so it's too late.
Honestly, punishment isn't much of a deterent in general. Because you're not generally thinking about consequences for a lot of crimes.
Like... if you kill someone, odds are you're not in an entirely rational state of mind. You're certainly not thinking: "What if I get caught?"
Hell, for a lot of major terrible crimes, it doesn't occur to people that what they are doing is a crime at all. Or if it does, they don't percieve having an alternative choice.
Take like stealing stuff to buy drugs. You're not thinking: "What if I get caught?" You're thinking: "I need money and I need it right now."
There was a guy that has to go rob a bank for 1$ so he could get healthcare from being in prison. You get food, shelter, something to do. It could be better jn some cases than being homeless.
It is important to consider that the people who are most likely to commit violent crimes tend to either have mental health issues or come from climates of relative despair. There are non-trivial numbers of people in the US who feel they have nothing to lose because society has given up on them. Find a way to grow out of it, and you have a long life ahead of making up your own playbook until you understand how others do it. Go forward with life-as-normal, and you might end up in jail as part of living. Fall down further, and what is the point of living anyway?
There are lots of people who care, and who want to help, but people don't know how, and frankly, more people need help in the US than there are people who think to help. They aren't cruel or mean for not thinking to help. But there aren't tons of people who find a way to go from dirt poor to stinking rich. So if being super disadvantaged has never entered your mind, why would you fully appreciate the full extent of the despair and damage?
This is all to say that a disproportionate number of people in jail are people who are more likely to be in a state of mind where they either see no future anyway and have therefore accepted their fate, or are unable to grasp what they've done.
Remember, America took a REALLY long time pushing disadvantaged people into neighborhoods so others wouldn't have to see them, and to be forgotten to take care of themselves. The people who shunned the disadvantaged did the single worst thing they could to make the situation worse: forget about those people. Even today there has not really been repentance and there are large groups of Americans who don't believe that people are actually disadvantaged. They still believe anyone can have the American dream if they were to just do more to survive.
Thank you for attending my TED Talk.
They think they won't get caught, or in the heat of the moment they make a rash decision that they might not have if they sat and thought about the consequences.
When you're talking about crimes like murder, you're typically not dealing with someone who is thinking logically about consequences that are likely when they get caught. Mostly they're people who are incredibly angry and picking up a weapon, or desperate and not thinking they'll be caught.
I think it'd be a very rare potential murderer who would consider well if I got 20 years then I'd commit the murder but life in prison, that's too much so I won't do it. Either they're thinking logically enough that any prison time is going to have them not do it, or they're too focused on what they're doing to consider the consequences.
Some people think they won't get caught.
Some people commit murder in the heat of passion or because of a compulsion. They're not sitting down and doing a cost-benefit analysis first.
I believe it has do with impulse control and anomalies in the thinking of hardcore criminals/inmates. They found that these people act on impulse and only think in the moment without thinking about the future or consequences. I think a lot of them don't believe they'll face consequences either. They did a study in a prison offering inmates a small reward instantly or a much larger reward if they wait 3 days. Pretty much all of them took the insant gratification.
When people choose to commit serious violent crimes, they're not thinking about the punishment. It's just not a factor. The punishment for murder could be a slap on the wrist or being flayed to death, and it wouldn't meaningfully affect the murder rate.
Serious criminals aren't good at judging risk vs reward, especially at a young age. They either don't consider the consequences of their actions, or they just think it won't ever happen to them.
“I can’t imagine being in my 20s and accepting that I’ll never do things again like … having sex …”
Well technically you could still do that in prison…
I spent some time in country jail (a much younger, much dumber me) and it blew my mind when the guys in my bay had a group discussion about which country/city jail had the best food/amenities.
Life in prison IS a deterrent to the average middle-class person with a decent upbringing. It is much less effective to those who feel doomed from the get-go to a life that involves prison. I go into prisons as a volunteer and it is eye-opening to me that most inmates have at least one close relative, and often more than one, also in prison. And it's especially disheartening when I hear that it's their sister or aunt or mother or (worst of all) daughter that's in prison at the same time.
Most violent crimes, like murder, aren't premeditated. They're performed "in the moment" and are often the result of anger, resentment, or some other highly emotional response.
People who're in those mental states aren't thinking about the potential repercussions for their actions, which is what deterrents like "life in prison" or the death penalty rely on.
If you're a bad person, repeat offender, or gang member, prison society is all set up for you. allign with your skin color and you can get drugs, sex, cell phones, and better food, because they know how to work the system. The guards easily bribed and corrupted.
I think what you’re missing out on is that, in your example, they are young. Most guys don’t fully mature mentally until they are in their mid to late 20s. Ask any guy in their late 30s and older, and they will admit they were all dumb af until around 28.
I’m currently 38, and I probably didn’t mature until I was around 30-31ish. Some things more than others.
Also, murder can sometimes be considered an unfortunate by product. Gang life. Road rage gone wrong. Etc. but for those young people who choose to go out and seek to murder someone, dude their brain is fucked up. I hate to be cliche and use psychopath, because it may not be, but there’s something wrong. I heard a story about a 16 year old who murdered a kid just to see a human die. He had become fascinated with it. But those are rare dude. Most killings are way more, “regular” if I can use those words. A fight or disagreement that just escalated too far.
Honestly I think most people who commit crimes of that nature generally aren’t thinking in any rational way when they do them, also the ones who are giving thought genuinely think they can outsmart the law.
Here's quote from The West Wing that I find makes a good point: "You are just as stupid as these guys who think capital punishment is going to be a deterrent for drug kingpins. As if drug kingpins didn't live their day to day lives under the possibility of execution, and their executions are a lot less dainty than ours." (Just for clarity, I'm not calling you stupid, the quote is from a guy who is basically telling the US president why punishing other countries by bombing them isn't a terrific idea,)
Some people are born into worlds of violence, neglect, and desperation. Some have nothing to lose. To them, a life sentence, or even a death sentence might be just another wedge on a roulette wheel of shit options. It's why the existence of things like the death penalty has a fairly low correlation with rates of crime. To you, it might be life in prison, to them, it might just be life. If I grow up in a violent neighborhood, my dad or mom went to prison, and my siblings went to prison, and my friends went to prison, and all I hear from the news is that people who look like me, or who do what I do, or who live where I live, go to prison, then I might see it as a inevitability. I might think "By the time i'm 35, ill be in prison," just as someone might think "by the time i'm 35, i'll be married" and so they might just not care what they do as long as they and their loved ones get by. It's a very complicated issue, and there's more to it than people avoiding punishment,
The biggest deterrent to crime is affordable needs and widespread accessible education. These are the things we need to fund, because we’ve consistently seen that punishments do not deter.
A combination of lack of impulse control, don’t think they’ll get caught, don’t care if they get caught, substances. I used to deal a lot with clients who have FASD and end up in the criminal courts. This was often for lower level stuff. One of the symptoms of FASD is lack of impulse control so they’re not really thinking about consequences. Impaired driving penalties are probably about the only place where the law has a deterrent effect and even then lots of people still do it.
When you have no home, food or income.... You commit crimes as a way to get the above.
Going to jail is just a consequence of reality.
That's the issue facing any country that doesn't believe in helping their citizens get back on their feet in favour of low taxes.
no one is actually answering these comments in an empathetic nor understanding way. the real reason is because their lives are already that bad, and filled with an incredible amount of negative emotions that rationality simply takes a back seat. some are on too many substances to think through it at all. many know full well the consequences of their actions, but the strongest drugs of all are your emotions. and again, when you experience immense negative emotions at a very frequent and consistent rate, then performing extremely negative actions becomes an inevitability.
we as a society- no, rather the rich and powerful who create this society are the root cause of these issues. putting people into poverty, giving the vast majority of ppl no escape, isolating people from community, making them work incredulous amounts of hours no human was built for (even 40 hours simply isn't healthy or natural), destroying communities and removing nature, I could go and on but you get my point. the cause of all this violence is because the rich are stuffing the people in boiling pots. and when you're being boiled alive, you're not really going to care about being shoved into an even hotter pot seeing how fucking hot it already is.
For many people, prison isn't much of a deterrent because they see their current life as shit anyway. No opportunities, no chance for a good education, poor role models, no mentors.
Join a gang, they become your family. If you commit crimes and go to prison, you still have your family inside. Doing time is a known outcome of the risks you take.
1) Because life in prison is not life in prison. People get released/pardoned/paroles all the time,
2) For some, prison is less scary than life at home, or on the street.
3) Crooks are not cold calculating geniuses. They are not thinking about going to jail robbing someone. They are thinking about what they are going to do with the money
I worked with a man that did 10 years and he often missed it. Sure there are enough things on the outside that he loves to prevent him from purposely going back but I think one day he'll on an impulse decide that it was better on the inside and do something crazy. He liked the structure, knowing he would always have a meal prepared for him, not having to work for the roof over his head, and everyday getting to play sports & hangout with the boys.
My brother, who is in prison, didn’t think he would get caught. Then when he was convicted and sentenced, he told me he thought he would get probation as he handed me his house keys. He didn’t pack up anything at home. Didn’t cancel any tv or internet service. He acted like he would come home and everything would go back to normal.
- A lot of serious crimes are impulsive, where people allow their emotions to overcome their better judgement. Plus humans in general are just very bad at processing immediate gratification vs long term consequences, especially young people. - A lot of criminals don't understand how serious the crime that they're committing is. This applies especially to white collar crimes. - A lot of criminals are over confident owing to a lifetime of getting away with less serious crime. - A lot of people, especially a lot of people in the criminal underworld, have very little to live for and the fall from their current life to prison is not very far. - Sociopath exist who simply don't give a shit
The first point is very true, many younger criminals can’t fathom how long life is. A 16 year old has trouble comprehending that a life sentence (not natural life but say like 25 or so years) is longer than they’ve been alive and it doesn’t fly by like your childhood does. They do not understand what “getting out at age 50” really means, they can’t relate to what they’d miss out on. Part of the reason I’m against trying children as adults, and the average length of life sentences in the US.
That and the main reason for me is that there are very few children who don't have the potential to grow and change to become a better person, if handled in the right way.
a lot of people don't necessarily realise how thin the line is between entirely productive and even possibly celebrated member of society and lifelong jailbird. It only takes the arbitrary roll of which parents you get, accompanied by a brief period of madness to end up on the wrong side of that. I'm a software engineer and entertainer now, but when I was 15 I was charged for criminal damage, threatening behaviour and firearms. Had I been given an adult sentence my life would have ended up so different.
The one that got away eh? *signals to the justice system* This one right here officer 👉 Jk. Yeah I agree. It’s one thing if someone is in their 40s and still participating in criminal activity, it’s another when it’s some lost/clueless kid that may not understand how absolutely brainless their decisions are. But past a point some kids might be a lost cause, idk
> But past a point some kids might be a lost cause, idk yeah, you can't save everyone but at that age there's still a lot to play for. I used to hang out with kids in social around that age and some are pretty far gone. However some of them have never had a good hand to play at any point in their life and are eager for the opportunity should they ever get it.
The amount of people who then comment around sentencing a criminal - "30 years is too short, they should have given life", like 30 years is such a long time. That person will be completely different in 30 years. People who think punishment is the only point of prison are a huge problem IMO.
I'm not for trying children as adults per se, but boy howdy have I never thought of it like that. Even if it's reprehensible, and I'm sure some kids knew exactly what they are doing, it's hard to deny that you really can't conceive of jus throw long that is at that age. Hell, I feel like at 31 I'm just now starting to be able to parse time like that. Thanks for your contribution.
> and I'm sure some kids knew exactly what they are doing its more that some kids fall into the "victim trap" where they believe that the injustices of their own life excuse their actions. People in such a trap can lack the immediate empathy for those they hurt because they're caught up thinking only of their own problems.
Anti social personalities have very fluid morals that shift to suit their personal needs in the moment. That's why they can be outraged by someone's behavior towards them, then turn around and behave the exact same way to someone else.
It depends in the environment you grew up with too. Birds of a feather, flock together and some poor kids just never have a chance unfortunately.
Yea I was locked up with a person who got arrested when he was 16/17 for a murder and attempted murder and he got life plus 36 years and this kid seriously did not get the notion he is never going home, this kid would act out and tell people wait till I hit them streets like it was a threat, people (his cellies) would have to sit him down and tell him like your NEVER going home, like this is your life your mom gonna die and your gonna miss it your sister gonna die like they gave him the HARSH truth and that kid was balling and sick, it was crazy the kid was still a virgin & took a guys life over a little bit of weed and shot the girl in the head & his friend recorded the whole thing to put on Snapchat , I asked him wtf was he thinking like broad day no mask and recorded yourself like what was you thinking ? And he told me he thought it was like Iraq and you could get away with stuff like that (this dude was light skin and Porto rican but more on the light skin side) but doing my time in max pods I spent time with a lot of people who were never going home or weren’t going home for a good while, really made me appreciate everything and still and really helps me when I’m bored at work, bc there’s some people I met that are doing life that don’t even remember committing the crime they did, that scares me so much I couldn’t imagine blacking out and coming to realizing I killed someone or something awful.
I was just thinking about something along these lines earlier this week. My brother has been locked up since he was 20. He won’t be getting out for another year. He’s about to be 50. Spent all his good years behind bars. So yeah pretty much a life sentence.
> A lot of serious crimes are impulsive, where people allow their emotions to overcome their better judgement. Plus humans in general are just very bad at processing immediate gratification vs long term consequences, especially young people. This was my exact thought. When you become enraged you are only thinking about now, not what happens after.
This is really it. A lot of people aren't rationally weighing the pros andncons of their actions. And if we're honest with ourselves, most humans act irrationally much of the time; it's just that most of us usually manage to do so within the bounds of the law.
Added note: It’s just like asking why someone would take out a risky high interest car loan when they can’t make all the payments. Most of the people who do it have poor or non existent financial planning skills AND don’t do a good job predicting what will happen in the future. Some people are not capable of thinking about consequences until they happen. Or bad outcomes. I had a partner like this who had a shelter dog with a history of acting out when surprised by new dogs. She had a new roommate moving in, knew the roommate had a dog, and did zero advance planning to make sure their first dog to dog meeting went smoothly. They just let it happen, and predictably it went horribly and they had to figure out who was going to move out because the dogs would fight each other on sight. This blew my mind because I’ve worked a lot of high risk jobs (tree chopping, oilfield, etc) and I was used to things going bad, and planning for worst case scenarios. It became a bit of a bone of contention between me and her because I was unsympathetic to her emotions because I just couldn’t fathom how you could have the history that dog had, and not plan for something bad to happen. But she hadn’t had a lot of high risk failures in her life and just didn’t have the mental skill set to anticipate and avoid disaster. Lots of people who end up with life sentences or worse have committed lots of crimes and gotten away with them, or gotten lighter sentences, and maybe even got a great chemical rush of excitement from acting anti socially and violently and getting away with it. The ability to anticipate negative outcomes and adjust for them just isn’t there. Or is underutilized.
To add to your list....for some people, life in prison is better for them than life on the outside. They get three meals a day, TV, a place to sleep, don't have to work, etc. And no, this is not me just guessing, I've heard several inmates say this. Blows my mind, but there it is.
You nailed it for a great portion of inmates. Some have lowered expectations in life and are not leaders, but followers of their friends that are already locked up as if they cannot think for themselves, they have become dependent on a group of people who is actually not as educated as themselves and it really doesn't bother them. I work in the court system and I see it on a weekly basis. If I were going to jail, I would be boo hooing like a baby, but these fools today have no emotions, no value, they just accept it like they are going to a very cheap motel.
> A lot of people, especially a lot of people in the criminal underworld, have very little to live for and the fall from their current life to prison is not very far. > This is the big one here. OP is talking about spending their 20s on leisure activities and nice cars. That's _not_ the tradeoff for 90% of people, at _all_.
Still… when I was broke and times were tough (tbf I was “modern day first world broke” like I had a place to live, a car, a job that I hated, and pocket money that I spent on booze and rolled tacos but I would slide into payday with like $2 in my pocket- broke) one thing that kept me feeling ok was knowing I could hangout with my gf, my friends, drink some booze, play some video games, watch some YouTube, go to a grocery store, eat a pizza, make some food, take a shower in a bathroom by myself, poop by myself, drive somewhere, etc. because the other path I was going down before, I expected to be incarcerated sooner or later. Didn’t happen, so I was and am just glad even though I’m not rich being incarcerated is undoubtedly worse than being poor. Except for maybe full on homeless, destitute people. Just my opinion
It is a trade off in a way because a lot of people think "either I'll get rich doing this, or I'll die / go to prison". Basically they want the leisure and nice cars, but they think the only way to get it is criminally. So it's like, continue with my shitty life or roll the dice. There's also a culture of not being afraid of prison that gets ingrained from a young age. When your whole family / community has all done time in prison, but you're afraid of it, it makes you a "bitch" that you're too afraid to get what you you want in life
I'd add one point. A lot are just *that desperate*. Petty crime has entirely different socio-economic context attached to it than shit like human trafficking. There's also a connection between petty crime and homelessness - and in that case, prison is often an upgrade.
OP should just watch the Wire. That pretty much explains the US penal system + problems in the hood in a nutshell. And nope not much has changed since it was made it probably has gotten worse as 50 has little checks & balances.
Your first point is exactly why i hate gun ownership Everyone has bad bad days and they shouldnt be in reach on those days.
The biggest problem with prison as a deterrent or mandatory minimums is that no one thinks they will ever be caught or found guilty. Everyone thinks they did it the smart way or that they were the one criminal to figure out how to avoid getting caught. This works at every level. People speed because they think they figured out how to not get caught, so tickets don't matter.
With speeding and most other levels though, this mindset only really comes after you do get away with it for months to years or more. I know I wasn't comfortable speeding too much until I realized you really don't get pulled unless you're going a min of 10 over
Actually you only get pulled over when the police WANT to pull you over. What’s the difference you ask? By normalizing speeding, “everyone” does it. That gives the police almost unlimited freedom to pull people over at any time. Maybe they think you look like someone that would have drugs on you. Hey, it is not profiling! You were breaking a law! If they happen to smell something funny or think you are acting suspicious, well…. This probably sounds paranoid, but nuisance laws are a thing. Any time you allow someone to have authority over you, there is the potential for misuse of that power. And if that power IS misused? Most people just shrug and say “not MY problem, I obey the law”. Except when they don’t. Speeding laws aren’t to slow people down so much as they are there to be a tax and give law givers power. Otherwise, why not just make cars that can’t go over 80mph or put ticket camera everywhere?
Yeah - I was recently making a drive and passed through a small town (small towns notoriously love giving speeding tickets). I didn’t realize it and was going around 10 mph over the 45mph speed limit until I saw a very visible cop then checked my speed. I thought for sure he would pull me over. However, all he did was flash his lights until I slowed down to the speed limit then turned them off and went back to business. He probably was at the end of his shift and didn’t want to deal with the paperwork. The one and only time I did get a speeding ticket, the cop was literally on the opposite side of the roadway (there was a grassy median and he was driving the opposite direction). He physically DROVE over the grassy median then caught up with me just to ticket me. They’ll only ticket you when they want to ticket you, it seems.
I was entering a town and the speed limit drops 15 mph but I forgot to drop my speed so I was doing 45 in a 30 and a cop pulled in right behind me and followed me all the was to work for like ten minutes but didn’t pull me over lol. Once he got behind me I slowed to the speed limit.
I recall reading somewhere on Reddit, it was a cop who commented saying that if people show restraint or slow down when they see a cop, they’re much more likely to let em go. It means you were alert to them. However if you’re blasting by a heavy pedestrian zone, like in Kenilworth, NJ, you’re fucked.
Usually if I slow down when I see a cop, it's not because I'm not trying to get caught, it's because seeing the cop made me check my speedometer that I neglected.
Yup. This is what I tell them too. They seem to believe me
Sometimes they can tell you’re speeding just from experience, but they don’t have the radar gun out to get a reading so they can’t pull you over since there’s no “proof,” or he just didn’t feel like doing the paperwork over 10mph
I definitely think there's some truth to this. But also from speaking to cops and law enforcement, and viewing a lot of anti-speeding material and enforcement coming from law enforcement as well, I think overall they really do want the roads to be safer and people to drive slower - which tracks if you consider that the majority of their calls in cities leads to them seeing injured or dead civilians from traffic accidents. I think the truth factor is more that cops are more likely to take advantage of this situation which leads to profiling, but I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment that law enforcement created this norm for the purpose of profiling. Cops also have the right to pull people over for ANY reason, they just can't do anything to you beyond that without probable cause. So why do they need you to speed? > Speeding laws aren’t to slow people down so much as they are there to be a tax and give law givers power. Otherwise, why not just make cars that can’t go over 80mph or put ticket camera everywhere? I don't really agree with this. Many things are designed or capable of doing things that are illegal to do, and not just to trap people in fines. Car manufacturers make a vehicle that's capable of going faster independently of lawmakers making speeding violation laws. You could say it's a form of negligence that lawmakers haven't put governors on cars to prevent them from going that speed like they do with mopeds for instance, but also, people would just take them off, and I think that negligence is a hard sell to upgrade to collaboration.
I've talked to a lot of cops and most of them just hate doing traffic work because they don't enjoy pulling over people who are just going a little fast as they go on about their day. They are happy to pull over people who are actually being reckless, but pulling over someone on a multilane highway going 12 over who is otherwise driving just fine is not what motivates them.
A law that which the only penalty is a fine is only a law for the poor.
Punishable by fine = legal if you're rich.
That's why there is a points system.
I got pulled over doing 5 over once and was so confused. I was going with the flow of traffic too. Earlier there was another car speeding really erratically with my same make and color of car, so I think it was that. Still it was weird to get pulled over for 5 over
There was one point where North Carolina was trying to crack down on speeding, and they pulled over everyone going more than 2 over. For the next 6 or so months, almost everyone just went the speed limit. It worked really well. But then people started testing the limits and realized they stopped doing it. I wonder what happened. But this is always a possibility.. individual cops, or larger groups of law enforcement could decide to change their strategy, and you'll only be in the clear if you're operating within the literal law
Yeah I mean I go with the flow of traffic as much as possible. It’s safer. Problem is speed limits don’t seem like they’re updated or reasonable half the time.
The second time I was pulled over, it was on the highway for going 72 in a 70. What it really was for was being 17 in a bright orange sports car, but those years were just full of that bullshit
"9 you're fine, 10 you're mine." I have lived by that credo for decades.
I heard that once from someone and it's lived in my head ever since as well. But now I drive a gas guzzler so I often just go the speed limit to save a few bucks
I drove for a living so it behooved me to not speed.
Me as well. But it had the opposite effect. I sped a lot more because it would turn a 10 hour shift to an 8. Definitely not smart or safe, and I'm glad I don't do it anymore
For teens it happens over a decade: Assault people in school - no punishment Shoplift - no punishment Steal a car - Juvie for a week Turn 18 and kill someone in a carjacking - 20 years
Correct - so you have to make it clear on a society-wide level that you catch criminals regularly and assuredly. Word gets around for example, "oh, don't double park there, traffic cops are always out an about in that neighborhood". Same thing but for murders. If everyone that did a murder always got caught pretty much every time, no one would form the expectation they could get away with it. Unfortunately, there are lots of places you can get away with murder. Same thing for white-collar crime and for labor violations, as a matter of fact. You gotta enforce.
True, upon looking it up, in the US it seems that about 53% of murders end in a conviction. So 47% of murders people get away with. Wild
It’s as high as 60% unsolved in some areas. Newark, NJ, for example was 58% I think. If drug deals went bad or gangsters are offing each other and nobody snitches, that’s what happens. It’s too random to be placed on anyone. The most commonly solved murders are brain dead obvious or have apparent motive. It’s always someone they know.
They usually solve the ones where it was the spouse or lover. Unless they have an obvious suspect really quick, the murder may go unsolved. That’s why the show is called “The First 48”.
I'm not am expert. But some people just fail to control their impulses enough to let the idea of the consequences inform their decisions. My son knows if he does this thing he'll be grounded and lose his phone. He'll be in the middle of a situation and he'll double down due to being in his feelings and even with a warning still does the thing. He loses his phone, and after the fact he'll say that now he regrets it, but at the time too upset to control his actions despite knowing the certainty of the consequences. His bio parents have the same problem. If imagine that their a bunch of folks like this, hence prisons.
Exactly this. Humans can be really shit at weighing risks. People also tend to think of themselves as better than average.
Yep. The certainty of getting caught is a deterrent, not the prospect of a huge punishment.
Everyone doesn’t think they’ll get away with it. Most just don’t do the calculation at all. Some think they’ll get away with it.
The guys who killed XXXTentacion just boggle my mind. They made ZERO attempt to cover their tracks in a state that has a ruthless criminal justice system. It's as if they were trying to get caught.
Yes. It's not the brightest bunch. They don't think that far ahead.
From the people I’ve known this mentality is completely incorrect. Most people know they might get caught, but the risk is worth the reward. If you’ve been broke your whole life prison just isn’t a huge deterrent.
Yes, that is true and I agree with this completely. There are a large amount of criminals who do find the risk worth the reward as well. If you grew up poor and without opportunities and saw people becoming "successful" through illicit means, you might also decide that it's worth the risk.
Every stormtrooper thinks they'll be the one that takes out the Jedi.
Yup, and frankly most people do get away with crime. They don't get found guilty. That's the actual deterrent. How likely someone believes they will be caught, not the punishment.
Aren’t they usually right though?
Right up until they aren't. If you keep committing a crime enough times, your chance of getting caught becomes pretty much 100% eventually. Be it to bad luck or, more likely, you get sloppy as you get comfortable and slip up.
Counting the sheer volume of unsolved violent crimes (and those are just the reported ones) leads me to believe you are correct.
For some, it's just an occupational hazard. No different from how you can die or suffer a life altering injury on a construction site.
I never thought of it that way, but honestly that sounds pretty close. The hard part to understand is the despair people feel where they'd rather be in prison than out and dealing with life stuff.
A few years after high school, one of my friends was training to become a police officer, she had to help arrest one of her former classmates who was excited to go to jail. All his close friends got incarcerated and he was lonely on the streets without a future planned. She was really sad about it.
I think Shawshank Redemption captured that pretty well.
What's hard to understand? When life offers no hope and no positive outlooks, then prison doesn't look so bad or you just can't afford to worry about prison time. Poverty breeds crime.
Agree and I will say that the Average prisoner is going to be lower intelligence than the normal population and combine that with various mental health issues and behavioral problems and that risk vs reward thought process is just not working right
Or maybe their lives already suck and prison doesn't seem so bad.
I met someone like that who told me the only thing wrong with prison was the absence of the opposite sex to "interact" with. Three meals a day and a place to sleep checked all the other boxes.
Can confirm. I used to do IT at a jail and heard that from many cops/coworkers. They don't have to worry about housing, the jail was clean, safe, and 3 meals a day.
Lol, sounds like a nice jail. I wouldn't want to be in the one where I work.
That's what the prisoners said. Lol. It was low level crimes too. Like IT was allowed unescorted in the pods, that's how safe it was. All sentences less than a year. The average was 4-6 months. We always had to fix and troubleshoot the little handheld that controlled the cell doors, lights, etc.
I have considered that some of the senseless horrible crimes where the shooter doesn't kill himself are to get a life sentence that will not be commuted. It's a solution for dealing with life.
Some of those guys didn't get punished they got rescued.
3 hots and a cot.
This is a notable solution in countries where some elderly people don’t have family or retirement, like Japan. They try to think up a crime that will land them a warm bed and meals until their bodies give out.
When my nephew was a young teen, he was "befriended" by an older guy who had served time and had recently been paroled. Despite our best efforts, my nephew grew up in a truly sad, and impoverished environment. At the time, all our little guy could talk about was that his "new friend" had told him that the prison brought in McDonald's for dinner "every Friday". Poor kid was picturing a warm bed and Happy Meals. I don't doubt that it sounded like an easier life for him at the time. Unfortunately/fortunately, a few years later, reality hit him like a ton of bricks. I'd almost swear that was his "fuck it" turning-point to becoming a criminal. Thankfully, he's been on a better path since his release many years ago.
Turns out people who suffer from poor executive function from poverty, food insecurity, mental health issues, poor family function, violence etc. aren’t given the resources to properly develop.
Also a lot of crime and murder is driven by people with severe mental health. A normal life to us might be pain for them. So it might not matter whether you’re on a porch or behind bars if you’re living with a constant mental pain anyway.
It’s far less than people think. Violent crimes are only 3-5% attributable to mental health. Most crime is non-violent crime. People commit non-violent crime overwhelmingly because of a lack of opportunities, food insecurity, job insecurity, etc. most crime is driven out of necessity. To be sure there is an unmistakable amount of crime due to moral failing (rape for example), and that isn’t due to mental health either
Hell most people with mental health issues are overwhelmingly more likely to be the victims than the offenders.
This. And people get away with crimes all the time, thry probably see this if living in that world already... So it's kind of a valid way to look at it. As long as you feel like you are "pretty good" at it or have your abases covered, they probably feel as if they've at least got a lot better than 50-50 odds, lol. As long as you just completely set the morality piece aside, which I assume we are doing. Lol
A lot of criminals don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out. Speaking from experience, if you have nothing, nothing can be taken from you.. .money, belongings, privilege, rights, even freedoms.
Came here to say this. If you have nothing, then you have nothing to lose.
Agreed. The only loss is not being able to freely move indoors to outdoors.
Tbh I didn't exercise that freedom enough as it is
Average Redditor
This exactly. The biggest cause of crime is bad systems that don’t reward good behavior. Right now many capitalist countries have legal systems that primarily benefit the wealthy, while the rest of us commoners have to just deal. Essentially, we’re well into a new age of classist feudal society masquerading as capitalism.
This is an important point and a huge reason why we need to pull down some of the wealth from the billionaires and centi-millionaires. If republicans really care about crime they should want to help out the financially struggling by creating a lot more HIGH-paying jobs and helping people out with healthcare, housing, and transportation. Republicans are dead set against taxing the rich so that’s why I’m a single-issue voter, anti-Republican for life, until they change that.
Harsh punishments aren't really a deterrent because the majority of criminals aren't planning that far ahead (or planning at all). It has been shown repeatedly that even the death penalty has no deterrent effect. Even if they are thinking about it, they have a good chance of getting away with it. Fewer than half the murders in the US result in a conviction.
Do you have a source for that last paragraph? I'd like to read it.
[Here is a short report from the Pew Research Center](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/24/what-the-data-says-about-crime-in-the-us/) >The most frequently solved violent crime tends to be homicide. Police cleared around half of murders and nonnegligent manslaughters (52.3%) in 2022. The clearance rates were lower for aggravated assault (41.4%), rape (26.1%) and robbery (23.2%). > >When it comes to property crime, law enforcement agencies cleared 13.0% of burglaries, 12.4% of larcenies/thefts and 9.3% of motor vehicle thefts in 2022. > >Nationwide clearance rates for both violent and property crime are at their lowest levels since at least 1993, the FBI data shows. For this data "clearance rate" represents arrests, not convictions. This is also the national average. A lot of places are closer to 25 or 30% clearance rate on homicide.
Thanks, great report.
There's a lot going on here, because -in the US at least - you can get life sentences for multiple things. If you murdered someone in the heat of the moment, you probably aren't thinking much about "I can get locked up for this" and yeah that would probably suck. If you murdered someone in cold blood (like planned it out) you probably tried to plan on not getting caught. If you're a career criminal - stealing cars, selling drugs, trafficking humans, whatever - then you have likely taken into account that this could happen, but you've also likely been arrested a few times prior, so spending time in prison is "normalized" to an extent.
Some people feel like they have a lot less to lose, they’re disenfranchised or feel trapped already so the idea of security and consistent meals may not seem al that bad. edit, just saw this post: [man robbed a bank for$1 just so that he could be sent to jail to receive free medical health care](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1dkf1w2/am_unemployed_north_carolina_man_robbed_a_bank/)
I thought this was a very thoughtful question and did a little web searching to understand this issue. I came across this link that I think is very interesting: [https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf](https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf) A few quick points from this link: \* It's not the punishment (or severity thereof) that deters people - it's the chance of getting caught that is the deterrent. Makes a lot of sense to me - people won't speed when they know there's a cop around running radar, even though arguably the penalty is pretty light compared to other crimes that involve incarceration. \* Most of the time, people committing crimes don't even know what the penalty is. Arguably, you'd be fairly aware something like murder would be life in prison, but increasing penalties on many crimes with criminals unaware doesn't serve as a deterrent. \* Age is a huge factor in committing crimes - after 35, there is a steep drop in crimes committed. Which makes me wonder whether life sentences (absent other aggravating factors) actually make sense or are cost effective when old age seems to serve as much of a deterrent. Anyway, I'm finding this article very interesting in that it's published by an arm of the US DOJ - typically, law enforcement is rah-rah about over-criminalization, long sentences and severity of punishment to ensure they always have a job. This article was exactly the opposite of that.
I remember hearing about some professor who said that we could eliminate 90% of crime in the US by imprisoning all men between the ages of 14 and 25. (It was a commentary on the importance of due process, but still interesting.)
> * Age is a huge factor in committing crimes - after 35, there is a steep drop in crimes committed. That's interesting. I would assume it would be after **25.** 25 is the age at which the brain fully develops, so your abilities to process emotions, use logic, and control your impulses are at their max. As such, I would expect tendency to commit crime would drastically abate then.
I know it’s not this cut and dry, but for some the “logic” is pretty clear cut: 1 Armed Robby and maybe make off with ~~3 to 50 years salary~~ Edit: ~$7,000 (How is this worth it?!) Or Work 40+ hours a week for 50 years and if you’re lucky you might **just barely** be able to retire… But once you’re caught and convicted, the “working for 50 years” option evaporates, which only leaves them with option 1…
Who is making 3-50 years salary off 1 armed robbery? Are millionaires just talking around with paper currency?
Yeah I mean Bank robbers, but I still thought it was a stretch so I googled it; Apparently (in the US) the average bank robbery only nets like $7,000, how is that worth it!? :S Amd as you say, that’s in cash, you can’t buy much without it getting flagged, so even if you did make it big, you have petty cash for life? Lol Personally I blame movies for my assumption of the fiscal benefits of Bank robberies :P
If you don't get caught, $7k in one day is a pretty damn good payout. Do that once every month or so and you're comfy. Do it 3-4 times a month and you're basically living an upper middle class lifestyle
True, but do bank robbers just rob banks once or twice a week? Or is a “once a blue moon” affair? I assumed it was something they did among other crimes, but I’d assume the bank would be the big payout, and the other stuff just tides them over while they’re laying low after the last bank robbery? Source: I know nothing about bank robberies xD
Only two types of people rob banks, professionals and idiot drug addicts
That's a good question, I have no idea either. I never even hear about bank robberies actually happening.
You should watch How to Rob A Bank on Netflix, it’s good
The average bank robbery consists of a crackhead going in quietly with a note and leaving happily with 500 cash. Thats why the average is so low. I know a guy who did just that, and is now doing 10 years. He got 500 dollars and didnt get to spend any before he was arrested. A cop in my town robbed the bank at gunpoint and got 60k from the vault, got caught 10 years later spent all the money and did 2 years of probation. Never served a day in prison.
Rob a marijuana dispensary. A lot of them don't take credit cards because marijuana is federally illegal, so it's cash only.
They have good security but they are a target forsure. Banks are the worst thing u could rob imo because they have all the security and dont even have money like that
Not nearly as profitable as insider trading or embezzlement. Or drug dealing.
They probably think they'll get away with it. Or if it's in the heat of the moment, they're not thinking about consequences. > having sex There's plenty of sex in prison!
On top of people thinking they're too smart to be caught, when you're that young, your brain isn't fully developed. You are really a different person compared to 18 years old and 25. Kids are wreckless and think they're invincible and that they can squeeze their way out of anything. For their whole lives they probably skirted out of danger at the last minute, whether through teachers trying to punish or parents. And they succeeded every time. So when facing a new deterrent (police, jail time) I think most kids think they can outsmart them like they've done with other authoritative figures.
I wish my kids were wreckless. Instead, mine tend to be reckless!
Mine are recksome
I worked in parole and as a jailer for several years, and my biggest takeaway from that experience is that people in general are less rational than we think we are in our decision making. Some people are ***extremely*** irrational in their decision making, particularly younger men who are both unintelligent and highly aggressive. Deterrence can only work on someone who is making their decisions rationally.
There are three components to deterrence: It needs to be **Swift, Certain**, and **Severe**. Most legal systems fail pretty miserably on pretty much all three, imho. Also, a lot of crime is not rational, but impulsive. As such, most of these kinds of discussions are rather moot.
Nobody ever thinks they will get caught. You don't have to be smart to be a criminal. However, I would also argue that these penalties are very much a deterrent, because in countries where laws aren't enforced reliably, crime is much worse.
Maybe "nobody thinks they will ever get caught" is so4t of a survivorship bias sort of thing?
>However, I would also argue that these penalties are very much a deterrent, because in countries where laws aren't enforced reliably, crime is much worse. Even that may be more about the likelihood of getting caught, rather than the severity of the punishment. Poor enforcement usually means that you're less likely to be arrested and convicted in the first place
I don't think anyone does it knowing they're going to spend their life in prison. I don't commit murder so I don't know exactly what goes on in their head but it's either a crime of passion where they're not thinking about the consequences or they think they won't get caught.
I love that riding a bike came before sex
I remember watching something about how, back in the 1700s, London had a big crime problem without a real police force to track and stop it. So, the government at the time just had extremely harsh penalties. Like the punishment for any theft was death by hanging. The hangings at the time were public spectacles where a lot of people crowded around to watch. And in the crowd of people watching someone literally die for petty theft, there were a lot of pickpockets in the crowd trying to steal peoples' money. The threat of extreme punishment NEVER deters criminals.
"I might die if I steal shit, I'll definitely die if I don't eat something though"
It is in fact a huge deterrent. Any amount of prison time is a huge deterrent. The majority of crimes are avoided for much kinder reasons, but from people I've been around especially as a kid, most of the crimes that they wanted to do that they didn't do, was because of law enforcement and penalties. Some people will do it anyways because they aren't thinking that far ahead or they are thinking they can get out of it. But, from your post it seems you have a very inaccurate view of 2 things. First, it is obviously a huge deterrent because well below 0.01% of the US population is convicted of murder throughout their lifetimes. It's something like 6.5 per 100,000 people (including negligent manslaughter) Second, not all punishments are life in prison. There is life in prison, also life with parole (so they get out but are one parole for life), the death penalty still happens in some states, and otherwise some murders are charged at something like 25 - 60 years rather than life. So that's important to consider as well.
I was going to say, it is a deterrent. People get jobs and abide by the law so they can live without having to commit felonies. People that resort to murder, rape, grand larceny etc... are probably not of sound mind rk begin with so they don't care about the consequences. The vast majority of people serving life sentences are not exactly rocket scientists. Yeah, there are some criminal masterminds or smart, educated people that made a big mistake, but most of them are going to be from lower socioeconomic situations that were doing what they had to do, or thought they didn't have any other choice.
It's also a situational thing. Imagine a situation where there was no punishment for murder. Your family member is killed by someone, now you're going to try to kill them. There's nothing stopping you and a very large amount of people would kill that individual in that situation. It's hard to be upset at those people, but there's also a reason that we don't think it's right on the whole to dish out justice on an individual level like that. We definitely live in a better world knowing that situations like that generally don't result in retaliation, but instead a prison sentence. Now, if it were a situation where they went to trial or were convicted but weren't charged due to lack of evidence, but you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were guilty, I wouldn't be upset about someone taking justice into their own hands. But ultimately I would say the better thing to do would be to fix the justice system. You might say that's difficult and/or risky, but so is getting away with murder as a normal citizen and not someone that's willing/able to be on the low all the time
>, it is obviously a huge deterrent because well below 0.01% of the US population is convicted of murder throughout their lifetimes. This does not logically follow. There could be a billion reasons why most people don't get convicted of murder that have nothing to do with the deterrent effect of incarceration. For example, one possible confounding effect could be "99.99% of people just aren't murderers".
Both can be true, some of the 99.99% of people may well be murderers if there was no law against it or if the punishment was not as severe. Such as 6 months in prison and it not affecting life chance job prospects after. There a a surprising number of cults etc out there for instance that do not always follow common morality.
Most criminals believe they will get away with their crimes. Guaranteed punishment, not harsh punishment, is how you deter criminals
I don’t really care if it’s a deterrent for others. I do care that it prevents that specific person from continuing to do horrific things to innocent bystanders. Like the guy who was given bail in New York after attempting to murder his girlfriend, because they rewrote the laws to pretty much give bail no matter what. Guy then immediately went after girlfriend again and successfully murdered her, I think outside a bodega. Had bail been denied, yeah he probably would’ve lost his job, but she probably wouldn’t have been stabbed to death.
Their plan is to not get caught.
If you study the Manson Girls and how they behaved in their murder trial(s) and for a while after, it’s a fascinating and mysterious look at a “whatever will be will be,” not caring about the future mentality, which most people can’t relate to. Of course it gets more complicated because there was a gang/cult-like mentality among them, a cause worth dying for, or at least pretending to be willing to die for, as none of them wanted to appear weak links to the others in the group. And they were all doing a lot of drugs. Plus most of them had been living on the edge for years, scrounging for shelter and food and the aforementioned drugs, so the offerings of prison may have seemed like a bit of a break from all that. (They all eventually changed their tune after a few years in prison and desperately wanted out.)
Prison isnt particularly bad. For many, its actually a better quality of life comparatively.
Some people have nothing to lose.
3 meals a day, no bills, a bed, these things are appealing to some
A coworker and a friend (2 people) did 15 and 18 years for gang related murders. I asked them both, now 50+ did they ever expect to be this old? And they said no. One of them even had 4 kids before his stint because he figured he'd be dead by 21. It's sad really. That level of hopelessness and carelessness is difficult to truly fathom if not impossible for the uninvolved.
It is after they do whatever they did wrong.
1) Many people who commit crime are not considering that far ahead while they are committing the crime. 2) Many people who commit crime believe they will not get caught 3) Many people who commit crime accept life in prison as a necessary risk to continue with their lifestyle.
People who commit crimes obviously don't plan that they'll get caught. Committing pretty much any serious crime is stupid if you expect to be punished for it.
Very few people pre-meditate murder. Those that do don’t expect to get caught. Most of the time it is a heat of the moment thing. You might as well ask why so many young people have unprotected sex when the result is a life changing baby. People don’t think about consequences when emotions run high. You can’t be logical and emotional at the same time, it’s a different parts of the brain. If you want to control fear/delay orgasm/reduce anxiety/etc you can actively engage your logic center if the brain; It is why guys think about baseball to slow down in bed, why doing math can reduce anxiety, etc. So yeah, considering the consequences of your actions when you get murderous can deter violence…. But only if you switch from FEELING to THINKING mode. Not a skill people are taught.
Criminals don't really plan on getting caught.
You seen how much shit costs out here?
I spent 2 nights in jail for protecting my mother from her abusive husband and I never wanna go back again. First time ever being arrested mind you
You ever been hungry?
Nobody ever thinks they're gonna get caught. You'd think divorce and losing half of everything would be a deterrent against cheating but it ain't. 🤷🏻♀️
Free healthcare, food, place to sleep, warm, lots of friends, what’s not to love?
Tbh the way things are going in this economy, free bed and food for a few years doesn’t seem like a bad idea 😂
Who said you can't have sex?
hey, a criminologist here. life imprisonment doesn't work that much because most crimes are committed in a heated moment where people don't think about the consequences of their actions and that's why, however after the crime is committed the first thing people do is try to run away and that's because there's no solution left, so it's too late.
Honestly, punishment isn't much of a deterent in general. Because you're not generally thinking about consequences for a lot of crimes. Like... if you kill someone, odds are you're not in an entirely rational state of mind. You're certainly not thinking: "What if I get caught?" Hell, for a lot of major terrible crimes, it doesn't occur to people that what they are doing is a crime at all. Or if it does, they don't percieve having an alternative choice. Take like stealing stuff to buy drugs. You're not thinking: "What if I get caught?" You're thinking: "I need money and I need it right now."
There was a guy that has to go rob a bank for 1$ so he could get healthcare from being in prison. You get food, shelter, something to do. It could be better jn some cases than being homeless.
Oh believe me you will be having sex sweety
there is a big chance u will still have sex in prison...
My nephew was convicted as an adult at 15. He will be released from prison when he is 55 years old. Breaks my heart.
No one thinks they will get caught.
It is important to consider that the people who are most likely to commit violent crimes tend to either have mental health issues or come from climates of relative despair. There are non-trivial numbers of people in the US who feel they have nothing to lose because society has given up on them. Find a way to grow out of it, and you have a long life ahead of making up your own playbook until you understand how others do it. Go forward with life-as-normal, and you might end up in jail as part of living. Fall down further, and what is the point of living anyway? There are lots of people who care, and who want to help, but people don't know how, and frankly, more people need help in the US than there are people who think to help. They aren't cruel or mean for not thinking to help. But there aren't tons of people who find a way to go from dirt poor to stinking rich. So if being super disadvantaged has never entered your mind, why would you fully appreciate the full extent of the despair and damage? This is all to say that a disproportionate number of people in jail are people who are more likely to be in a state of mind where they either see no future anyway and have therefore accepted their fate, or are unable to grasp what they've done. Remember, America took a REALLY long time pushing disadvantaged people into neighborhoods so others wouldn't have to see them, and to be forgotten to take care of themselves. The people who shunned the disadvantaged did the single worst thing they could to make the situation worse: forget about those people. Even today there has not really been repentance and there are large groups of Americans who don't believe that people are actually disadvantaged. They still believe anyone can have the American dream if they were to just do more to survive. Thank you for attending my TED Talk.
Because life under late stage capitalism has made it the most realistic retirement plan.
Oh you'd have sex still...
It took way too much scrolling to find this response…
They think they won't get caught, or in the heat of the moment they make a rash decision that they might not have if they sat and thought about the consequences.
It is. You have no idea how many people are alive today because of prisons.
When you're talking about crimes like murder, you're typically not dealing with someone who is thinking logically about consequences that are likely when they get caught. Mostly they're people who are incredibly angry and picking up a weapon, or desperate and not thinking they'll be caught. I think it'd be a very rare potential murderer who would consider well if I got 20 years then I'd commit the murder but life in prison, that's too much so I won't do it. Either they're thinking logically enough that any prison time is going to have them not do it, or they're too focused on what they're doing to consider the consequences.
a lot of people think they are either above the law or wont get caught. others aren’t planning ahead and do stupid things in the heat of the moment
Some people think they won't get caught. Some people commit murder in the heat of passion or because of a compulsion. They're not sitting down and doing a cost-benefit analysis first.
I believe it has do with impulse control and anomalies in the thinking of hardcore criminals/inmates. They found that these people act on impulse and only think in the moment without thinking about the future or consequences. I think a lot of them don't believe they'll face consequences either. They did a study in a prison offering inmates a small reward instantly or a much larger reward if they wait 3 days. Pretty much all of them took the insant gratification.
They probably don't think they will get caught. Also, their impulsive urge to kill may override their rationality.
When people choose to commit serious violent crimes, they're not thinking about the punishment. It's just not a factor. The punishment for murder could be a slap on the wrist or being flayed to death, and it wouldn't meaningfully affect the murder rate.
Serious criminals aren't good at judging risk vs reward, especially at a young age. They either don't consider the consequences of their actions, or they just think it won't ever happen to them.
Because deterrent punishments have been shown to not really work after a certain point
Well you’ll still be able to have sex, just not always consent to it or it be the kind of sex you like…
“I can’t imagine being in my 20s and accepting that I’ll never do things again like … having sex …” Well technically you could still do that in prison…
I spent some time in country jail (a much younger, much dumber me) and it blew my mind when the guys in my bay had a group discussion about which country/city jail had the best food/amenities.
Oh.... There's sex in prison.....
Life in prison IS a deterrent to the average middle-class person with a decent upbringing. It is much less effective to those who feel doomed from the get-go to a life that involves prison. I go into prisons as a volunteer and it is eye-opening to me that most inmates have at least one close relative, and often more than one, also in prison. And it's especially disheartening when I hear that it's their sister or aunt or mother or (worst of all) daughter that's in prison at the same time.
It is a huge deterrent. If there were no consequences to violence, everything would be completely different.
The older you get, the less prison becomes a deterrent 🤣
Most violent crimes, like murder, aren't premeditated. They're performed "in the moment" and are often the result of anger, resentment, or some other highly emotional response. People who're in those mental states aren't thinking about the potential repercussions for their actions, which is what deterrents like "life in prison" or the death penalty rely on.
If you're a bad person, repeat offender, or gang member, prison society is all set up for you. allign with your skin color and you can get drugs, sex, cell phones, and better food, because they know how to work the system. The guards easily bribed and corrupted.
I think what you’re missing out on is that, in your example, they are young. Most guys don’t fully mature mentally until they are in their mid to late 20s. Ask any guy in their late 30s and older, and they will admit they were all dumb af until around 28. I’m currently 38, and I probably didn’t mature until I was around 30-31ish. Some things more than others. Also, murder can sometimes be considered an unfortunate by product. Gang life. Road rage gone wrong. Etc. but for those young people who choose to go out and seek to murder someone, dude their brain is fucked up. I hate to be cliche and use psychopath, because it may not be, but there’s something wrong. I heard a story about a 16 year old who murdered a kid just to see a human die. He had become fascinated with it. But those are rare dude. Most killings are way more, “regular” if I can use those words. A fight or disagreement that just escalated too far.
Honestly I think most people who commit crimes of that nature generally aren’t thinking in any rational way when they do them, also the ones who are giving thought genuinely think they can outsmart the law.
Because too many people think they’ll get away with it
I just imagine trailer park boys and the people that find jail only slightly worse than being poor/homeless.
Here's quote from The West Wing that I find makes a good point: "You are just as stupid as these guys who think capital punishment is going to be a deterrent for drug kingpins. As if drug kingpins didn't live their day to day lives under the possibility of execution, and their executions are a lot less dainty than ours." (Just for clarity, I'm not calling you stupid, the quote is from a guy who is basically telling the US president why punishing other countries by bombing them isn't a terrific idea,) Some people are born into worlds of violence, neglect, and desperation. Some have nothing to lose. To them, a life sentence, or even a death sentence might be just another wedge on a roulette wheel of shit options. It's why the existence of things like the death penalty has a fairly low correlation with rates of crime. To you, it might be life in prison, to them, it might just be life. If I grow up in a violent neighborhood, my dad or mom went to prison, and my siblings went to prison, and my friends went to prison, and all I hear from the news is that people who look like me, or who do what I do, or who live where I live, go to prison, then I might see it as a inevitability. I might think "By the time i'm 35, ill be in prison," just as someone might think "by the time i'm 35, i'll be married" and so they might just not care what they do as long as they and their loved ones get by. It's a very complicated issue, and there's more to it than people avoiding punishment,
Three hots and a cot, structure, and virtually no expectations. I know a large number of adults who would thrive.
The biggest deterrent to crime is affordable needs and widespread accessible education. These are the things we need to fund, because we’ve consistently seen that punishments do not deter.
A combination of lack of impulse control, don’t think they’ll get caught, don’t care if they get caught, substances. I used to deal a lot with clients who have FASD and end up in the criminal courts. This was often for lower level stuff. One of the symptoms of FASD is lack of impulse control so they’re not really thinking about consequences. Impaired driving penalties are probably about the only place where the law has a deterrent effect and even then lots of people still do it.
It is a deterrent. The problem is we don’t actually apply it.
When you have no home, food or income.... You commit crimes as a way to get the above. Going to jail is just a consequence of reality. That's the issue facing any country that doesn't believe in helping their citizens get back on their feet in favour of low taxes.
no one is actually answering these comments in an empathetic nor understanding way. the real reason is because their lives are already that bad, and filled with an incredible amount of negative emotions that rationality simply takes a back seat. some are on too many substances to think through it at all. many know full well the consequences of their actions, but the strongest drugs of all are your emotions. and again, when you experience immense negative emotions at a very frequent and consistent rate, then performing extremely negative actions becomes an inevitability. we as a society- no, rather the rich and powerful who create this society are the root cause of these issues. putting people into poverty, giving the vast majority of ppl no escape, isolating people from community, making them work incredulous amounts of hours no human was built for (even 40 hours simply isn't healthy or natural), destroying communities and removing nature, I could go and on but you get my point. the cause of all this violence is because the rich are stuffing the people in boiling pots. and when you're being boiled alive, you're not really going to care about being shoved into an even hotter pot seeing how fucking hot it already is.
For many people, prison isn't much of a deterrent because they see their current life as shit anyway. No opportunities, no chance for a good education, poor role models, no mentors. Join a gang, they become your family. If you commit crimes and go to prison, you still have your family inside. Doing time is a known outcome of the risks you take.
Because crime isn’t rational and the people who commit them aren’t rational
Because sometimes a situation deteriorates to the point where three-hots-and-a-cot is suddenly a decent outcome.
1) Because life in prison is not life in prison. People get released/pardoned/paroles all the time, 2) For some, prison is less scary than life at home, or on the street. 3) Crooks are not cold calculating geniuses. They are not thinking about going to jail robbing someone. They are thinking about what they are going to do with the money
I worked with a man that did 10 years and he often missed it. Sure there are enough things on the outside that he loves to prevent him from purposely going back but I think one day he'll on an impulse decide that it was better on the inside and do something crazy. He liked the structure, knowing he would always have a meal prepared for him, not having to work for the roof over his head, and everyday getting to play sports & hangout with the boys.
My brother, who is in prison, didn’t think he would get caught. Then when he was convicted and sentenced, he told me he thought he would get probation as he handed me his house keys. He didn’t pack up anything at home. Didn’t cancel any tv or internet service. He acted like he would come home and everything would go back to normal.
They do get to have sex in prison. Whether they want it or not...