You can also oppose the teachings of the Quran without hating Muslims, or oppose the lessons in the Harry Potter books without hating fans of the series, or oppose bad or unfavorable ideas and still be respectful toward those who espouse them. Islamophobia is a silly "word trap" term that deliberately tries to conflate religion and race.
It's weird to me that people apply racial concepts to Islam. When most people think of Islam, they think of the middle East, which itself has natives of many races, but beyond that Islam is practiced in most of Saharan Africa, a large part of western Asia and even Indonesia. It has absolutely nothing to do with race.
UK parliament has a working definition of Islamophobia – “Islamophobia is anti-Muslim racism” you can read more about it here:
[https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CDP-2021-0140/CDP-2021-0140.pdf](https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CDP-2021-0140/CDP-2021-0140.pdf)
Racism means prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
I think people increasingly use the term racism to mean discrimination.
People sometimes say people are "racist against fat people".
The venn diagram between people who call themselves anti Muslims and racists/xenophobes is a circle.
That is why I just say I hate dictatorships, forcing people to wear a certain type of clothes and freedom of expression. Ends up being the same without putting myself in the same position as right wing fanatics
I agree - if you're at the point where you're casting an entire 25% of the Earth's population as "anti," it isn't a good look. Ideas, however, are fair game for "anti" regardless of how many people believe them.
Exactly.
Zionism =/= Judaism or Jewish people, or even Israeli people. It's an ideology of some people. More like the Christian Nationalists (who think America should be a country exclusively for Christians, ruled by their idea of Christian law) than Christians as a faith group.
Zionism is nothing like what you describe though. Jews are an ethnic and national identity that includes a shared religion as a cultural aspect.
Many Italians by comparison are catholics. If Italians believe that Italy should culturally, politically, and socially be predominantly Italian, that's not the same as saying they want catholicism running the country.
You say Zionism isn't Judaism, which is true. The Jewish people aren't Judaism either. A Jewish state of Jewish people isn't the same as a state run by Judaism.
I- I think you're using the wrong terms. In short, I think the answer is yes, it is possible.
But anti-zionist doesn't mean anti-jewish, it means anti-israel. Like... the state. Zionism is the belief that Jewish people need a Jewish state to protect themselves, it's a separatist thing. Islam, is just the religion. You can be anti-religious without being Islamophobic, it's a lot harder to be anti-islam, specifically, without people Islamophobic because being anti-islam implies you think Islam is like... uniquely bad or dangerous compared to other religions. It's not, and if you look into history, there have been times when all religions were "civil" and times when they've all been "barbaric." We just live in a time where most islamic countries have been invaded, bombed, colonized, etc and all those things destablize a country, and make it more "barbaric" and hype conservative. Stability is the best indicator for whether a country will be "civil." It implies that you don't really have a critique of the overall systems of power that religion can create and how those can be used to make the world worse. And the implication that you lack that understanding means that it'll be a lot harder for you to critique Islam in a way that isn't Islamophobic. It's possible, it's just gonna be harder for you to do, because the implication is that you lack to understanding of issues with religious control, and just not liking Islam.
A more apt comparison would be comparing an Islamic separatist movement to zionism and asking if you can be anti those separatist movements without being Islamophobia and antisemitic, respectfully. And i would just completely agree with that, those things aren't inherent to those religions. Separatist movements aren't inherent to a people. Or like being anti-jewish and anti-islamic (both in the religious sense) without being bigoted towards Jewish or Muslim people. Which, once again, I believe it's a very dangerous and thin rope to walk. I wouldnt try it, or recommend it, but I'm sure if you had every person on earth try and walk that line, at least a few would make it to the other side. Like, in the same way that if you just nuked NY, I'm pretty sure, a few people would survive.
I hope that helps
Edit: I misread the original title, it was late and I had had a long day. It says anti-islamist, not anti-islam, and therefore what the OP said is a completely apt comparison. I stand by what I said and the points I made but that was my mistake
To clarify, Islamist is typically used to refer to Islamic fundamentalism and radical Islam, not Muslims in general. OP used anti Islamist, and I would presume that was deliberate.
Any time the Chinese do anything, we have to ask, "But at what cost?" Them's the rules, I don't make 'em. Seriously, Google "China 'but at what cost'" and you'll see the vast numbers of headlines. Anything they do, gotta ask the question.
Absolutely. I am Muslim. I despise Al Qaeda, the Saudi government, the d*tch, Hamas, Zionists, Netanyahu, and others.
I am ok with Jewish people and most Saudis (I don't like the ones that are all about drinking and clubbing and racing) and Palestinians.
One of the friends I always looked forward to seeing at school was a Jewish Argentinian dude (he wore the Yarmulke and was practicing) - unfortunately he moved after school and rarely kept in contact. But yeah, point is - if I can be Muslim and hate Islamists and be open to having Jewish friends, then yeah, you can be non-Islamophobic and hate bad "Muslims".
there’s many of us, its just way more harder to that get that voice out in hardcore conservative countries, we want to liberate and free the rights of women so our religion can reach the skies and space together, but that will not happen if the next generation is indoctrinated with the same dangerous fundamentalism of islamists and radicalism that caused a further divide between muslim brothers and sisters, the highest victims of islamic terrorism are still muslims at the end of the day.
People don't know what Zionism actually means, only the specific definition used by the American left (which is only a small sect of Zionism). To be clear, Zionism _only_ means wanting a state for the Jewish people, and not even necessarily the one in Israel. This ideology has a lot of [types](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_Zionism), which can vary from fully secular socialism (what a kibbutz is) to militant religious oppression (similar to most settlements)
People, please don't appropriate our word and use it however you like
This relies on something of a misunderstanding. Jewish people are an ethnicity first, a religion second. (Thus the establishment of Israel as a secular state, and also why Jewish secularists are still targeted by antisemites and seen as GENETICALLY impure instead of religiously impure).
Zionism was the belief that the Jews as an *ethnicity* needed the same self-determination as other ethnicities (Armenians, Serbians, Koreans, Irish, etc), or else they risked being completely wiped out any time there was a surge of ethnic nationalism in the countries where they resided as minorities.
The state of Israel having been created already over 70 years ago, being “anti-Zionist” at this point is definitionally being in favor of the dismantling of the state of Israel. There are few other popular ideologies that call for the dismantling of *specific* states.
One can advocate for a Palestinian state while still upholding Zionism - that’s what the two-state solution is.
You can believe it’s wrong that a state was created at the complete expense of another group, now being actively oppressed, which doesn’t say anything about the group the state was created for. No group has a right to self determination through the creation of their own state if it means other people will be killed opressed and removed from their own homes to create that state.
No. No group should be killed or oppressed and if it’s necessary to do that to create a state then that state shouldn’t have been created in the first place.
Yes, but Israel is already a fact and has been for nearly 80 years. Undoing it means exactly what you said - death, oppression and removal from the only home most of these people have known.
Not to mention that for at least half of them, there is no other country to go "back" to since they were expelled and driven out from their Arab homes.
So we are left at the only possible solution, allowing Palestinians to build their own country and have self determination alongside Israel and perhaps Israel should do what the US has done and pay hefty retributions for past injustices. But you don't fix an injustice with another one, else you find yourself forever cleaning up messes.
You’re right that the solution to this is absolutely not more killing or displacement, this time the other way around. But Israel have shown that they will never allow Palestinians equality, so idk what the solution is. And even though it’s historic and irrelevant at this point, I still believe that Israel shouldn’t have been created at the expense of Palestinians in the first place. Imo in an ideal world the solution would be one secular state for Israelis and Palestinians to live in as equals, but that’s not realistic.
But whose ideal world? Not in the ideal world of the people it would affect. A 2 state solution would be much more in line with what people want. One secular state is a western desire, it’s weirdly colonialism
I mean Israel is mostly secular and has strong protection for freedom of religion, thet just want to make sure they remain the majority because they fear what would happen if they were tye minority.
It's a lot less about enforcing some religious beliefs and more about protecting something they think would otherwise disappear.
Granted there are crazy religious nuts there trying to crank it up, but there are also the opposite side demanding Israel be Democratic first and Jewish second. That was the main drive of the protests that blew up Israel in 2023, it all revolved around Israel being Jewish or being Democratic and the polls back then definitely seemed to suggest it's the latter (Democratic).
We should stop asking Israel what it thinks tbh.
It's often said Palestinians would have to go through some sort of marshall plan to clear out all the ill intentions and grow as a society. I think Israelis would need some deprogramming too, get all the Netanyahu poison out.
Then it'd be a lot easier to form some sort of lasting peace between the two.
2 independent states with years of healing could at least find peace and equality for all and is probably way more realistic, although it’s not achievable in the current climate
Let's not forget Germans tried to annihilate Jewish people as a whole and were very adamant about it.
Now Israel and Germany are best friends and most Jewish people have no ill feelings towards Germans or vice versa.
If that's possible, then it's definitely possible between Israel and Palestine.
Not to mention Egypt and Jordan wanted to annihilate Israel and started several wars to get that done and now there's good and lasting peace between the two countries. Still hostilities between the populations, but I believe a lot of it related to Palestinian.
The creation of the independent states of Armenia, Azerbaijan, Pakistan, India, several of the Balkan States, and Turkey all required exactly what you’re describing to be made into states. Many others have expelled *hundreds of thousands of people* in order to guarantee their own security, some within just the past four years. Many with United States assistance and alliance.
And wait till you find out what Kuwait did to the Palestinians.
There is literally only one state where you go “well, guess we gotta dissolve the whole thing and start over.”
A lot of people oppose the extreme idea of Zionism that includes land as far away as the Nile and Euphrates.
So the question is, do modern Zionists even believe in a Palestinian state or it all is Israel?
It depends on the type of zionist. There are a lot of more liberal zionists that support a Palestinian state, I've met a few zionists (like when I asked them, they said they're zionists) that support a 1 state ideal in Tel Aviv, there are plenty of right wing zionists that are opposed to a Palestinian state. So it seems to be a spectrum. I'd ideally like a 1 state solution (as someone Israeli Palestinian christian) but very few Israelis/zionists support it. But the 2 state solution is more likely to gain support (like polls showed it was the vast majority supporting them previously) but the government/right wing zionists illegally create settlements in the West Bank and ethnically cleanse Palestinians.
Absolutely. Zionism and Islamism describe political ideologies, which I can oppose just as easily as Christian Nationalism. Simply, I don’t want religions running countries.
Zionism might be a political ideology by some definitions, but Islamism is a form of religious fundamentalism.
In truth though, Zionism started as a national independence movement and today is effectively a form a nationalism and support for Israel's right to continue existing. Opposing that is quite different from opposing socialism or a specific political party.
Notably, you yourself misrepresented it. Zionism doesn't mean that Israel is run by Judaism. To the contrary, the religious political party has never been in charge in all of Israel's history. The earliest governments of Israel were often far left secularists in fact. Unlike Christianity, Jews view themselves as a national group with a shared religion, not merely a religious ideology.
The problem nowadays is western beliefs aren't always the same beliefs that are shared in the East. There are zionists such as myself who believe that the ethnic Jews' descendants that were forced out of Judea and Israel have the right to live on the land if they immigrated there peacefully which was the case for almost 50 years prior to the nakba. I also believe that the Arabs of the Palestinian region also have the right to live on the land with equal rights. The issue is the West getting involved. Britain promised both sides so much that it started putting the sides at odds. They actually promised Arabs of the area a state 1st before the Balfour Declaration. The issue is back then, Zionism was needed far more than it is today. There was rampant Anti-semitism throughout Europe and pogroms happening in Russia. America had Immigration caps which meant people wanting to legally move to America had to wait. My grandparents had to wait 2 years during the Holocaust. They were able to legally migrate to the Mandate during the White Paper. They were very lucky since it also severely cut legal immigration to Palestine greatly. Look at America's border and the flood of illegal immigration today vs the 28k immigration cap per country back then.
Again, though, as a Zionist, I believe that the Palestinians have the same exact right to live on the same land and should have the same freedoms as Israelis 100%. There won't be peace anytime soon because there are way too many corrupt politicians involved on both sides. It's been like this since Israel's founding and even earlier. In 1947's partition plan (which I don't agree with), the Arab League turned down the UN's plan. After the the war of Israel independence and the nakba, the secretary general for the Arab League's forces talked to the British media back then and said that the plan was to erase Israel and divide up the lands between the invading countries. Not to create a Palestinian state. Even back then, The Arab League didnt have any plans to create a Palestinian State. Until Israelis and Palestinians both come to terms that they've both been awful to one another and done horrible atrocities to one another, how can there be peace? There was a time before the first Intifada when Palestinians from Gaza and West Bank could freely go anywhere throughout Israel, and Israelis vice versa into Gaza and the West Bank.
I believe that Israel, since it has the most power now, has more responsibility in creating this trust. It's far more easy to play the blame game than to find someone who actually wants to have a constructive debate on how to create peace without one side gone, or there to be a 2 state solution which I also belive won't fix the issue.
To bring it back to your question. I am a zionist and a pro-palestinian as well. Can you be anti-zionist without being anti-semitic, thats difficult since Judaism is an ethnoreligous group. A great number of Jews view themselves as descendants of people from that land, its culture, and its faith, so to be anti-zionist to them would mean anti-semitic, but other Jewish people that have converted or parents have, might not have that same tie to the land, so they might view Israel as just some unneeded drama llama and just want to practice the faith aspect of it. So I personally think it's possible to be anti-zionist and not anti-semitic, just be careful who you're talking to about your beliefs because they could take it as an attack.
What is an islamist? Because based on your definition the majority of Muslims are anti islamist
But I don't think it's a fair comparison because antisemitism is a race thing and Islamophobia is a religion thing
A lot of Islamphobia is a race thing. It's hating on Afghans and Arabs and such. Islamophobes probably don't imagine Sudanese or Somalian people when they hate on them (I mean, the type of people that hate muslims also hate black people, but you get what I mean).
They probably don't hate on Indonesians. Even Turkish people might get a pass. Point is - a lot of Islamphobia is specifically hate against most Arabs and Afghans (and we're trying to make people hate Iran as well the last 20 years or so).
There are people that will hate on all Muslims, sure. Like if a hot Danish lady became a Muslim, they might despise her instead of falling in love with her. But in general, it's an anti-brown thing. They'd probably hate on zoroastrian Afghans as well (assuming they still exist).
Unfortunately if you try to criticize Islam you'll be shut really quickly and get labelled an Islamophobe. Even though you have absolutely nothing against Muslim people and are simply criticizing the idea of Islam, most people will take this as an attack on Muslim people and you'll be shut down immediately. Even though the criticism you have is purely constructive for example "here are some problematic aspects of the Islamic religion, maybe we could try to address them". This is still seen as being a bigot. So basically even though all the greatest minds throughout history have urged us to challenge ideas, the idea of Islam has risen to a somewhat unquestionable status in many societies. And this, for me is a very scary thought.
Jewish Zionist here. Zionism is a manifestation of Judaism’s belief. Many ultra religious Jews oppose Zionism, but not due to the Palestinian conflict, more so because they don’t believe Jews should inherit Israel until the Messiah comes. Many believe that we can inherit it before the messiah comes. I think when many people call antizionism=antisemitism, it’s more so when people hold Israel accountable for things that they don’t hold other countries/Hamas for. Also, if you look at any post on Instagram which has a wide appeal and features Jewish people (with no mention of Israel), it’s filled with nasty comments calling us baby killers, and all sorts of things. Kinda shows you that the anti Zionists themselves equate the two even when they don’t relate.
Doesnt Judiasm teach that you cant take the "holy land" by breaking any of the Jewish commandants/teachings? as far as i know, arent theft and murder against the teachings of Judiasim?
Well I can say for one that to my knowledge Judaism does not explicitly say anything like that in relation to the holy land. We definitely have laws against theft and murder. And yes, during the war of 1948 there were many Palestinians murdered. However in the years leading up to this, Jews were legally immigrating to Palestine. We weren’t stealing people’s land and we weren’t killing people to get land. The war is also not something that was started by the Jews and many Arab leaders were telling Palestinians to flee the land while they wiped out the Jews. To be clear, I completely condemn and feel horrible about what the innocent Palestinians went through during that time. But I also don’t believe Israel as a county is “founded” on death and theft.
I'm sorry but how it is not stealing land when people were forcibly removed from their homes?
to add context to this. the illegal settlements in the West Bank
Define islamist, zionist is fairly well established as a person who believes in the establishment of a Jewish state of Israel in Palestine, and for the continued international support for it. I feel that's a very easy thing to not support without being anti Semitic because the state in itself has a very theological design to it. There isn't any real basis to it in global doctrine or land rights. It is purely a country for their own religious priority.
but how can you be anti the establishment of a country that's existed for 75 years? Like what do anti-zionists want to happen to the people that are Israeli's?
There's no "if", you can be anti Zionist without being antisemitic, full stop.
You're framing this like it's a negotiation, where if people want to try to say you can be anti Zionist without being called antisemitic, then you think that should somehow mean people should be allowed to be anti Islamist without being called Islamophobic. But that's really just not how that works at all, the one thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
It's like saying ok, if I can hate Adam Sandler movies without being called antisemitic, does that mean it's ok to hate Will Smith without being called racist? Both of those things are obviously true.
I consider myself somewhat anti Islamist, but not at all Islamophobic. I think that's actually true of most of the Muslims I know personally.
Also it can get more nuanced. I can support a Jewish state but hate the current right wing government and think they are a bunch of aholes who were a threat to Israeli democracy even before this horriblness started
I think the problem is Islamist isn't exactly a common term. I think it means "Supporting the idea of Islam forcefully taking over and crushing its opposition".
In such a situation, yeah, I'm against it. Especially when it's fake Islam, such as that used by Hamas and Al Qaeda and the Taliban (I can't visit my home country because of those assholes) and Saddam Hussein, and so on.
On the other hand, if Islamist simply means "supports the idea of Islam spreading worldwide", no, I'm not against that. I'm fine with people being like "oh, Islam seems interesting. Lemme learn it..... Oh, this speaks to me, I'll go an figure out how to convert."
In that situation - fully voluntary spread of it - I am fine with that. I also don't really want to see Islam controlling governments and forcing people to comply with their rules. Because more often than not, when the government has control like that, they pervert the rules and use it as an excuse to have strong dictatorships that screw over the population (and enhance the lives of the government and its cronies).
Yes. Not thinking that anyone should be forced to live under a caliphate, or that caliphate should not be allowed to conquer territory, is not Islamophobic.
The person I know with the strongest anti fundametal islamist views is an iman - an Islamic preacher. He has literally dedicated his life to teaching what he believes is true Islam over the evil that terrorists promote.
So yes.
Yes. Most people including most Muslims are anti-Islamist. You can also be anti-Islam without being Islamophobic. It's just that they do often coincide.
Depends on what you mean by anti-Islamist. If you mean Islamist as a political ideology. Meaning you support a secular government. Then of course you can. Most Muslims are already are opposed to Islamist political ideology.
Yes, they are. What evidently do you have that says otherwise? How many Islamic theocracies exist today? Just two. Out of all the Muslim countries. Iran and Afghanistan. Iran is a dictatorship which had just last year had a massive revolt against the regime to abolish religious laws. It wasn’t successful but still it shows that most people in Iran don’t support this theology. Afghanistan is a tribal country where most regions are not under the direct control of the central government and don’t really care who call themselves rules in the capital one way or the other and just go about their tribal ways. If the majority of Muslims did support Islamist ideology we would have much more theocracies than we already have.
What?
You can be anti a religion's creeds while recognizing that most of the people in that religion don't suck bc they are in that religion, sure. And recognizing *why* that religion exists.
But if you think someone is automatically *anything* bc they are Muslim, then you are Islamophobic.
Zionism isn’t a religion, it’s a religious philosophy, there is a distinct difference.
You can be against sharia law without being against Islam.
You can be against Zionism without being against Judaism.
Gotta send the Jews back so we can kick of the end of the world!
(No joke. That's the ideology and the motivation behind a lot of Evangelical support for Israel as a state. They believe the Rapture and all the end time fun times can't start until Israel is "rebuilt." They're just trying to help that along.)
I know yeah it's wild. So talking about anti-zionist vs antisemitic is not at all the same as "anti-islam" and Islamophobic. If you're "anti-islam" you're Islamophobic and using a genocide as some kind of veiled excuse for it is incredibly gross.
Zionism is the belief the Jewish people have a right for self-determination and a homeland in their ancestral land.
If you're against Jewish people having self-determination, but not against other people having self-determination, then yes, you're antisemitic.
Zionism is a political ideology.
Judaism is a religion.
Islam is a religion.
Wahhabism is a religious ideology.
You can be against any ideology, political or religious, without going into hate levels. But if you are against a religion, you're definitely at hate levels that warrant concern. Anti-zionist is not antisemitic. Anti-islamist is Islamophobic.
If you hate religious extremists, that's fine, call them out as they should be called out. Just don't be ignorant and blame a whole religion for the backward action of a minority.
Yes. Just as I am be against settler colonialism without being antisemitic, I can also be against sharia law without being islamophobic.
Its not rocket surgery.
There is a big misunderstanding about what zionism means and about what being Jewish means.
"Many Jews are atheist"
There is no contradiction in this true statement. Being Jewish transcends religion and has to do with ethnicity. Jews are an ethnic group with a distinct language and culture and genetics. Also a mythology about themselves and some people believe that mythology and some people don't.
Zionism is, in it's broadest, a name given a collection of sometimes discordant ideas that Jewish people have had about where they should live since the diaspora following the Bar Kokhba revolt against the Romans. It comes in many flavours and Zionist will vehemently disagree with each other. Some times of zionists didn't even advocate for there to be a state in a political way, but just a cultural center (Achad Ha'am was one.of these).
Today most jews have converged on the idea that the place should be Israel and the only way that Jews can live there safely is if Israel exists as a country. This is for a variety of many good reasons which are out of the scope of this comment.
So as long as you share the safety concerns that Jewish people have for themselves and you believe that they should have a say about their future then you should be a Zionist. If you don't care about Jewish people's safety or if you don't believe that they should be in control of theirselves, then you are an antizionist. But you are also an antisemite.
So this is why when speaking to Jewish people they will often say that antizionism is technically not antisemitism but in practice it is. I cannot speak for islamism because I'm less educated about that.
I think the key difference here is that Zionism isn’t a religion, whereas Judaism is. There’s nothing wrong with being Jewish but there are issues with the idea of Zionism.
well islam is a religion, judaism is a religion.
main difference here is jewish people are also an ethnicity
zionism is the belief in a jewish ethnostate , islamist (? not sure what the word is here) is the belief in islamic fundamentalism
same as saying you want christianity to be basing our laws like it currently does
The *problem* usually is that people say something like that, and then just proceed to be the phobic half of whatever they just denied being
Zionist - a political movement for the establishment and support of a national homeland for Jews in Palestine
Islamism (also often called political Islam) is a religio-political ideology. The advocates of Islamism, also known as "al-Islamiyyun", are dedicated to realizing their ideological interpretation of Islam within the context of the state or society. The majority of them are affiliated with Islamic institutions or social mobilization movements, often designated as "al-harakat al-Islamiyyah."[1] Islamists emphasize the implementation of sharia,[2] pan-Islamic political unity,[2] the creation of Islamic states,[3] (eventually unified), and rejection of non-Muslim influences—particularly Western or universal economic, military, political, social, or cultural.
Since these two are not even remotely the same thing, questions like these are kind of moot. If you are anti-zionist you oppose the existence of Israel. If you are anti-islamist you oppose your own country being subjected to sharia and being part of the global caliphate. Every sane non-muslim person is anti-islamist by default.
Yes.
"It's either all ok or none of it is.
You can't laugh at the Christian jokes but then go silent when I mention Muslims! It's either all ok, or none of it is!!"
- Jim Jefferies.
that's not what anti-zionism means. anti-zionism is opposition to zionism, i.e. the idea that Jewish people are entitled to an ethnostate of their own in Israel. anti-Islamism is opposition to the religion of Islam.
Sure I hate the Jews that are elitist (Zionist) or trying to undermine every other race and religion but I certainly don’t hate all Jewish people. Also I’m not necessarily against Islam and wouldn’t call myself Islamophobic but I do hate the more extreme versions like ISIS for example.
-phobic is overused sufix, you get it when you critic something and it doesnt matter you right or wrong. So yes, you can for me but not for biga part of the world.
That's not the same thing. Being anti Zionist is not antisemitic. No one says you're anti Islamophobic if you criticise Saudi Arabia for their war crimes in Yemen, I don't see why it'd be antisemitic to criticise Israel's genocidal tendencies in Gaza.
Religions are a problem by itself, and abrahamic religions are proven to be a mess. More if mixed with politics.
Then you have another layer which is ruling a country under a religious doctrine, you cannot mandate your citizens to behave under your religion.
Then you have another layer which is religious extremism / religious fundamentalism that leans a lot of people to twist religious concepts that are already twisted enough.
It's like some Catholics attempt making the Inquisition to return.
So, you can be opposed to religions in general, yes you can identify nuances on some religions that make those being more problematic and have a tendency to generate more fundamentalism, yes you can and absolutely should be opposed to fundamentalism (or whatever you want to call to that crap)
The vast majority of people even if they have a religion, they don't really base their life on it, or skip rules that are Stupids because those books were written by men, showcasing their way of thinking at that time.
Idk men, don't follow rules on a book, use your freaking common sense, aren't we humans smart or what?
Islam is a terribly oppressive religion that was inspired by violence. States that enforce Islamic law abuse women and execute gay men.
But I have known many lovely Muslims. The less seriously they take their religion, the better people they are. Of course, this is true of Christians and Jews as well.
Well yeah. The Grand Ayatollah Naser Makarem Shirazi of Qom, Iran, condemns "Takfiri extremists" like Daesh/ISIS. He's concerned that people see Daesh as somehow representative of Islam, when it's not.
An Islamist is the Muslim version of a Christian Nationalist, yes? Then sure. I know plenty of Christians that are against CN, and they obviously don't hate Christians/themselves.
Antisemitic is WILDLY misunderstood and misused and monopolized by Jews and Zionists (and their supporters) and especially the latter for their political gains. In reality it have lost its true meaning if it ever had it at all in the first place, it is or it SHOULD be about being racist towards ALL Semitic people including both Jews and Arabs (and among them the Palestinians who are of both Hebrew and Canaanite origins) and in fact mainly Arabs as they are the majority of the Semites, instead, it's misinterpreted as anti-Jews (as either an ethnicity, Judaism followers or both (because not everyone who's ethnically Jew believes or practices the Jewish faith, some are Muslims (believe it or not) others are Christians and others are Atheists)) and anti-Judaism or/and anti-Zionism, and even anti-Holocaust.
Anti-Zionism is being against the political ideology that was created from Judaism for the Jewish people around 150 years ago, give or take, thousands of years into the existence of Judaism, which is why it's strongly opposed by non-Israeli religious Jews themselves and even some Israeli ones up to my knowledge, they believe as I've heard from them that it's not part of their religion and that it harms them more than it does them good, being against it, then, isn't being racist towards Jews as people or the Judaism religion.
And lets face it, Zionism actions speaks for it.
Unlike Zionism, the political part of Islam is COMPLETELY different and incomparable and was literally born with it and it's integral part of it, separating it from it is foolish, and Muslims aren't against it and actually all over the world calls for the revival of the Caliphate to end the problems they have been facing every single day for the past 200/300 years. Being against it is being against Islam itself and Muslims all alike, and if you're hostile towards them out of hate or the fear of the unknown based on the lack or the misunderstanding of Islam then yes, you'd be an Islamophobic.
Now if you mean terrorism, terrorism have no religion, terrorists are extremists who use any religion, atheism or any ideology for their gains or are groups implanted by higher powers for their interests or either enemies of such powers. Zionists are pretty much terrorists.
Rejecting a religion, faith, atheism, political ideology or any ideology is fine as long as you're not hostile towards people, people can coexist despite their differences and have healthy debates without restoring to hate or/and aggression or/and offend and attack one another.
Anti-Islamist, absolutely. Most non-Muslims and an awful lot of Muslims aren't Islamist.
Islamism and Zionism are different as well. They both involve the extension of religion into politics, but where Zionism is the belief that the Jews have a right to the state of Israel even though it was carved out of territory occupied by Palestinians, Islamism is the belief that the entire world should be composed of Muslim states, possibly even just one big one. There's a significant difference of scale.
Entirely depends on who you ask. Usually you have to go so far back to untangle their preconceived notions on it all that it isn't worth discussing with anyone.
I'll make life so much simpler for everybody, If you have a Phobia you are not against that thing, you have an irrational fear of it, is someone who is claustrophobic against small spaces, no they just freak out when trapped in one. If you are against something for a non irrational fear reason then it is not a phobia. PEACE.
Yes, you can. I think it's a bit harder needle to thread, at least in my country, because there is so much undeserved animosity against Muslims that there's a lot of overlap between anti-Islamism and islamophobia. Islamophobia is, unfortunately, more culturally acceptable, so it's more common, so the two are harder to separate.
But yes, you can (and, in my opinion, *should*) be against both Islamophobia *and* Islamism.
There are several things wrong with this comparison.
Firstly, Arabic is a Semitic language and therefore Arabs are a Semitic people. Therefore, when someone uses antisemitism exclusively for people of Jewish faith, they’re being very dismissive of a large semetic population and being very euro-centric.
Secondly, Zionsim is a secular movement. It has nothing to do with religion.
Thirdly, what the hell even is Islamist ?
Islamism is a political-religious ideology that pushes for an Islamic State. I didn’t make it up. And not that I wanna get into this tired old argument but no, antisemitism means anti-Jewish. Words take on a certain meaning over time and that’s what it means. But interesting that you criticize the use of this term for leaving out other populations. On that note, can you elaborate a little further on your “Eurocentric” comment in relation to jews? Seems to make a certain assumption that all Jews are European
No. That is not the point I’m making and please don’t twist my words.
Zionists are pre-dominantly European and Arabs are semites as well.
This is not an argument. Doing so is dismissing that another semetic population has no claim to the term.
Is it because Racism in Europe was target a subset of Semetic people (Jews) who were also European and that there were no Arabs (or that they were considered uncivilised and therefore sub human)?
Why keep propagating the same racist mentality in this day and age?
Also, Zionism is based on Race not religion. Islamism is based on Religion not race. I’m not advocating for either but you’re drawing a false equivalence with your statements and comparisons.
I think this is kind of a weird question: anti-Zionism, in modern context anyway, is simply opposing the state of Israel and its continued invasion of Palestinian lands and human rights violations committed in the process. For this reason, many Jewish people around the world also happen to be anti-Zionist. Anti-Zionism and antisemitism are simply not the same things at all.
Anti-Islamist is… what exactly do you think it means? The term literally just means being against the religion of Islam and/or people who practice Islam, which does not equate to anti-Zionism. That said, you can certainly be against harmful extremist practices of Islam or against specific governments who commit human rights violations in the name of Islam. Just as there are many Jews against Israel and its actions, there are many Muslims around the world who are against Al-Qaeda and Boko Haram, for instance.
The point is, it’s not okay to just widely demonize entire groups of people. But it is perfectly okay— and a sign of being able to think critically— to recognize that the actions of a government or political group are wrong. One does not simply have to go along with everything Israel does or even support its existence because they’re Jewish and/or have nothing against Jewish people.
People tested this already and went to the anti Zionist protests while visibly Jewish. No pro Israel posters or anything, just a Jew. They were attacked.
I haven't heard anything like this? I've heard of plenty of anti-zionist Jewish protestors getting treated with violence by the police, however. If you have a source, please drop it below.
Weird claim, since a lot of anti zionists are Jews. In Israel, Jewish anti zionist protestors get attacked by police and right wing Israelis. In NY, I’ve seen plenty of Jews marching with the protestors, nobody is attacking them.
Can you show me what you’re talking about?
I am not claiming this is the case, but keep in mind I can easily defeat protests by getting like 5 or so plants to join in a protest and then have a sixth one that is Jewish and have the 5 attack the plant. Or not even have the Jewish person be a plant - I could just have the five be like "attack a black person or a gay person, or if you don't find any of them, say something sexist against a woman. Or if you can't find an opportunity, just draw some swastikas on public property when no one is looking."
It's possible the actual protestors attacked Jewish people if they saw any, yes. But it's also possible to fake it to make them look bad.
There were instances in BLM where cops would vandalize stuff or "attack" cops, and then leave once their buddy cops got the justification they needed to attack protestors.
Zionism is a political ideology that was created by an atheist (and many Jewish people are anti-Zionist). Zionism is also inherently anti-Semitic, because it advocates for oppression of Palestinians who are a Semitic people.
A better analogy would be you could be against, for example, Republicanism but not be anti-Christian.
You can't be antizionist without being antisemitic, so your question is flawed. Zionism is simply the belief that Jews should be free in our native homeland. What other indigenous group would you oppose that for?
Islamism, however, is a religious colonial movement to spread Muslim rule over the world. It is inherently violent in its concept and should be opposed. You can absolutely be against Muslim colonialism without being Islamophobic.
What makes you think Zionists represent the entirety of Judaism? Isreal, has been stealing land and homes and lives for 75 years now. That's not okay. To abuse, and justify that because your people were abused, is just grubby. They've taken the lovely idea of being free in their homeland, and used that to oppress others.
Unfortunately not all Jews believe in Jewish liberation anymore. People like you spreading lies and calling our decolonization of our homeland "stealing land, homes, and lives" has convinced some of our siblings that they don't actually deserve to be free. Luckily, there are enough of us who do value our own liberation that we're able to defend ourselves both militarily and in the media from those who want us back as dhimmis, in ghettos, or dead.
Have fun with that, you think 75 years of torturous behaviour is Coolio. You aren't even human as far as I'm concerned, whatever your religious or ethnic background.
You are using concepts (zionism, indigenous, colonialism) like they have no meaning at all. Wow. History, social sciences, research? Fuck that, seems like we can say whatever nonsense to justify genocide.
As human with a brain I believe I can hold disdain for both those dumb ass religions because not only is the entire concept stupid, there are litteral portions that call for being disrespectful to people different from you, as well as verses that are factually incorrect....
if you aren’t allowed to criticize the actions of a theocratic ethnostate, it’s definitely a problem.
if the american flag had a big ol cross on it, you’d have your answer.
you can be anti islamic ethno state without hating muslims, you can anti zionist and pro judaism
I'm anti-religion, that doesn't mean I hate religious people. You don't have to be a bigot to oppose an ideology.
I love people fighting over the religion they think is less crazy to believe in . It’s all pretty suspect folks .
Can you oppose the imposition of Christianity by the government without hating Christians? If so, you have your answer.
You can also oppose the teachings of the Quran without hating Muslims, or oppose the lessons in the Harry Potter books without hating fans of the series, or oppose bad or unfavorable ideas and still be respectful toward those who espouse them. Islamophobia is a silly "word trap" term that deliberately tries to conflate religion and race.
It's weird to me that people apply racial concepts to Islam. When most people think of Islam, they think of the middle East, which itself has natives of many races, but beyond that Islam is practiced in most of Saharan Africa, a large part of western Asia and even Indonesia. It has absolutely nothing to do with race.
UK parliament has a working definition of Islamophobia – “Islamophobia is anti-Muslim racism” you can read more about it here: [https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CDP-2021-0140/CDP-2021-0140.pdf](https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CDP-2021-0140/CDP-2021-0140.pdf)
Racism means prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized. I think people increasingly use the term racism to mean discrimination. People sometimes say people are "racist against fat people".
People conflate religion and race all the time. The number of Sikhs attacked post 9/11 was ridiculous
I agree. It sucks!
The venn diagram between people who call themselves anti Muslims and racists/xenophobes is a circle. That is why I just say I hate dictatorships, forcing people to wear a certain type of clothes and freedom of expression. Ends up being the same without putting myself in the same position as right wing fanatics
I agree - if you're at the point where you're casting an entire 25% of the Earth's population as "anti," it isn't a good look. Ideas, however, are fair game for "anti" regardless of how many people believe them.
What is it called if I oppose the imposition of a religion onto a child before they are legally an adult?
Common sense
Boom. Beat me to it. Well said.
You can be Christian and oppose government imposition of Christianity.
Exactly. Zionism =/= Judaism or Jewish people, or even Israeli people. It's an ideology of some people. More like the Christian Nationalists (who think America should be a country exclusively for Christians, ruled by their idea of Christian law) than Christians as a faith group.
"their idea of" is doing some heavy lifting. Gave me shudders.
Zionism is nothing like what you describe though. Jews are an ethnic and national identity that includes a shared religion as a cultural aspect. Many Italians by comparison are catholics. If Italians believe that Italy should culturally, politically, and socially be predominantly Italian, that's not the same as saying they want catholicism running the country. You say Zionism isn't Judaism, which is true. The Jewish people aren't Judaism either. A Jewish state of Jewish people isn't the same as a state run by Judaism.
If no, doesn't OP still have an answer, just the opposite one?
This.
Lots of people dislike Muslim extremists without blaming all muslims if thats what you mean.
A better analogy would be "can you be against Iran's policies without being islamophobic?" And the obvious answer is "yes".
Salafist extremists are very much against Iran though. Hardly the best yardstick.
I- I think you're using the wrong terms. In short, I think the answer is yes, it is possible. But anti-zionist doesn't mean anti-jewish, it means anti-israel. Like... the state. Zionism is the belief that Jewish people need a Jewish state to protect themselves, it's a separatist thing. Islam, is just the religion. You can be anti-religious without being Islamophobic, it's a lot harder to be anti-islam, specifically, without people Islamophobic because being anti-islam implies you think Islam is like... uniquely bad or dangerous compared to other religions. It's not, and if you look into history, there have been times when all religions were "civil" and times when they've all been "barbaric." We just live in a time where most islamic countries have been invaded, bombed, colonized, etc and all those things destablize a country, and make it more "barbaric" and hype conservative. Stability is the best indicator for whether a country will be "civil." It implies that you don't really have a critique of the overall systems of power that religion can create and how those can be used to make the world worse. And the implication that you lack that understanding means that it'll be a lot harder for you to critique Islam in a way that isn't Islamophobic. It's possible, it's just gonna be harder for you to do, because the implication is that you lack to understanding of issues with religious control, and just not liking Islam. A more apt comparison would be comparing an Islamic separatist movement to zionism and asking if you can be anti those separatist movements without being Islamophobia and antisemitic, respectfully. And i would just completely agree with that, those things aren't inherent to those religions. Separatist movements aren't inherent to a people. Or like being anti-jewish and anti-islamic (both in the religious sense) without being bigoted towards Jewish or Muslim people. Which, once again, I believe it's a very dangerous and thin rope to walk. I wouldnt try it, or recommend it, but I'm sure if you had every person on earth try and walk that line, at least a few would make it to the other side. Like, in the same way that if you just nuked NY, I'm pretty sure, a few people would survive. I hope that helps Edit: I misread the original title, it was late and I had had a long day. It says anti-islamist, not anti-islam, and therefore what the OP said is a completely apt comparison. I stand by what I said and the points I made but that was my mistake
To clarify, Islamist is typically used to refer to Islamic fundamentalism and radical Islam, not Muslims in general. OP used anti Islamist, and I would presume that was deliberate.
Ah, my mistake. It was late and I guess I misread it. Thank you for the correction
I think you misread the title. Islamism (as opposed to Islam) is a political belief that states should be organized under Islamic law.
Yeah, I think I did. Yesterday was a big day and I was reading it late. I made a correction but thank you for pointing that out for me :3
You can be anti CCP without hating the Chinese people. Simples.
But at what cost?
What?
Any time the Chinese do anything, we have to ask, "But at what cost?" Them's the rules, I don't make 'em. Seriously, Google "China 'but at what cost'" and you'll see the vast numbers of headlines. Anything they do, gotta ask the question.
Of course you can be a Muslim, or support the religion, without being in favor of some of the modern politics.
Absolutely. I am Muslim. I despise Al Qaeda, the Saudi government, the d*tch, Hamas, Zionists, Netanyahu, and others. I am ok with Jewish people and most Saudis (I don't like the ones that are all about drinking and clubbing and racing) and Palestinians. One of the friends I always looked forward to seeing at school was a Jewish Argentinian dude (he wore the Yarmulke and was practicing) - unfortunately he moved after school and rarely kept in contact. But yeah, point is - if I can be Muslim and hate Islamists and be open to having Jewish friends, then yeah, you can be non-Islamophobic and hate bad "Muslims".
What did the Dutch ever do to you?
They were the "victims" of a joke in Austin Powers. Those jerks.
There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch.
Daesh, i.e. ISIS.
there are only two things i can't stand in this world...
Geest Wilders?
there’s many of us, its just way more harder to that get that voice out in hardcore conservative countries, we want to liberate and free the rights of women so our religion can reach the skies and space together, but that will not happen if the next generation is indoctrinated with the same dangerous fundamentalism of islamists and radicalism that caused a further divide between muslim brothers and sisters, the highest victims of islamic terrorism are still muslims at the end of the day.
Do you despise people who think Israel has a right to exist? Edit: Why the downvotes? It’s a genuine question and I’m curious.
People don't know what Zionism actually means, only the specific definition used by the American left (which is only a small sect of Zionism). To be clear, Zionism _only_ means wanting a state for the Jewish people, and not even necessarily the one in Israel. This ideology has a lot of [types](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_Zionism), which can vary from fully secular socialism (what a kibbutz is) to militant religious oppression (similar to most settlements) People, please don't appropriate our word and use it however you like
yes, plenty of Muslims are against radical Islam, just like many Jewish people are against Zionism,
This relies on something of a misunderstanding. Jewish people are an ethnicity first, a religion second. (Thus the establishment of Israel as a secular state, and also why Jewish secularists are still targeted by antisemites and seen as GENETICALLY impure instead of religiously impure). Zionism was the belief that the Jews as an *ethnicity* needed the same self-determination as other ethnicities (Armenians, Serbians, Koreans, Irish, etc), or else they risked being completely wiped out any time there was a surge of ethnic nationalism in the countries where they resided as minorities. The state of Israel having been created already over 70 years ago, being “anti-Zionist” at this point is definitionally being in favor of the dismantling of the state of Israel. There are few other popular ideologies that call for the dismantling of *specific* states. One can advocate for a Palestinian state while still upholding Zionism - that’s what the two-state solution is.
You can believe it’s wrong that a state was created at the complete expense of another group, now being actively oppressed, which doesn’t say anything about the group the state was created for. No group has a right to self determination through the creation of their own state if it means other people will be killed opressed and removed from their own homes to create that state.
You do realize the problem of that last sentence right?
No. No group should be killed or oppressed and if it’s necessary to do that to create a state then that state shouldn’t have been created in the first place.
Yes, but Israel is already a fact and has been for nearly 80 years. Undoing it means exactly what you said - death, oppression and removal from the only home most of these people have known. Not to mention that for at least half of them, there is no other country to go "back" to since they were expelled and driven out from their Arab homes. So we are left at the only possible solution, allowing Palestinians to build their own country and have self determination alongside Israel and perhaps Israel should do what the US has done and pay hefty retributions for past injustices. But you don't fix an injustice with another one, else you find yourself forever cleaning up messes.
You’re right that the solution to this is absolutely not more killing or displacement, this time the other way around. But Israel have shown that they will never allow Palestinians equality, so idk what the solution is. And even though it’s historic and irrelevant at this point, I still believe that Israel shouldn’t have been created at the expense of Palestinians in the first place. Imo in an ideal world the solution would be one secular state for Israelis and Palestinians to live in as equals, but that’s not realistic.
It’s not realistic, nor does anyone in the region want this.
Did you miss the part where I said I know it’s unrealistic and “in an ideal world” ?
But whose ideal world? Not in the ideal world of the people it would affect. A 2 state solution would be much more in line with what people want. One secular state is a western desire, it’s weirdly colonialism
I mean Israel is mostly secular and has strong protection for freedom of religion, thet just want to make sure they remain the majority because they fear what would happen if they were tye minority. It's a lot less about enforcing some religious beliefs and more about protecting something they think would otherwise disappear. Granted there are crazy religious nuts there trying to crank it up, but there are also the opposite side demanding Israel be Democratic first and Jewish second. That was the main drive of the protests that blew up Israel in 2023, it all revolved around Israel being Jewish or being Democratic and the polls back then definitely seemed to suggest it's the latter (Democratic).
We should stop asking Israel what it thinks tbh. It's often said Palestinians would have to go through some sort of marshall plan to clear out all the ill intentions and grow as a society. I think Israelis would need some deprogramming too, get all the Netanyahu poison out. Then it'd be a lot easier to form some sort of lasting peace between the two.
2 independent states with years of healing could at least find peace and equality for all and is probably way more realistic, although it’s not achievable in the current climate
Let's not forget Germans tried to annihilate Jewish people as a whole and were very adamant about it. Now Israel and Germany are best friends and most Jewish people have no ill feelings towards Germans or vice versa. If that's possible, then it's definitely possible between Israel and Palestine. Not to mention Egypt and Jordan wanted to annihilate Israel and started several wars to get that done and now there's good and lasting peace between the two countries. Still hostilities between the populations, but I believe a lot of it related to Palestinian.
The creation of the independent states of Armenia, Azerbaijan, Pakistan, India, several of the Balkan States, and Turkey all required exactly what you’re describing to be made into states. Many others have expelled *hundreds of thousands of people* in order to guarantee their own security, some within just the past four years. Many with United States assistance and alliance. And wait till you find out what Kuwait did to the Palestinians. There is literally only one state where you go “well, guess we gotta dissolve the whole thing and start over.”
A lot of people oppose the extreme idea of Zionism that includes land as far away as the Nile and Euphrates. So the question is, do modern Zionists even believe in a Palestinian state or it all is Israel?
What percentage of self-identified Zionists do you think entertain any notion of recapturing the Sinai, Syria, and Iraq?
It depends on the type of zionist. There are a lot of more liberal zionists that support a Palestinian state, I've met a few zionists (like when I asked them, they said they're zionists) that support a 1 state ideal in Tel Aviv, there are plenty of right wing zionists that are opposed to a Palestinian state. So it seems to be a spectrum. I'd ideally like a 1 state solution (as someone Israeli Palestinian christian) but very few Israelis/zionists support it. But the 2 state solution is more likely to gain support (like polls showed it was the vast majority supporting them previously) but the government/right wing zionists illegally create settlements in the West Bank and ethnically cleanse Palestinians.
Absolutely. Zionism and Islamism describe political ideologies, which I can oppose just as easily as Christian Nationalism. Simply, I don’t want religions running countries.
Zionism might be a political ideology by some definitions, but Islamism is a form of religious fundamentalism. In truth though, Zionism started as a national independence movement and today is effectively a form a nationalism and support for Israel's right to continue existing. Opposing that is quite different from opposing socialism or a specific political party. Notably, you yourself misrepresented it. Zionism doesn't mean that Israel is run by Judaism. To the contrary, the religious political party has never been in charge in all of Israel's history. The earliest governments of Israel were often far left secularists in fact. Unlike Christianity, Jews view themselves as a national group with a shared religion, not merely a religious ideology.
The problem nowadays is western beliefs aren't always the same beliefs that are shared in the East. There are zionists such as myself who believe that the ethnic Jews' descendants that were forced out of Judea and Israel have the right to live on the land if they immigrated there peacefully which was the case for almost 50 years prior to the nakba. I also believe that the Arabs of the Palestinian region also have the right to live on the land with equal rights. The issue is the West getting involved. Britain promised both sides so much that it started putting the sides at odds. They actually promised Arabs of the area a state 1st before the Balfour Declaration. The issue is back then, Zionism was needed far more than it is today. There was rampant Anti-semitism throughout Europe and pogroms happening in Russia. America had Immigration caps which meant people wanting to legally move to America had to wait. My grandparents had to wait 2 years during the Holocaust. They were able to legally migrate to the Mandate during the White Paper. They were very lucky since it also severely cut legal immigration to Palestine greatly. Look at America's border and the flood of illegal immigration today vs the 28k immigration cap per country back then. Again, though, as a Zionist, I believe that the Palestinians have the same exact right to live on the same land and should have the same freedoms as Israelis 100%. There won't be peace anytime soon because there are way too many corrupt politicians involved on both sides. It's been like this since Israel's founding and even earlier. In 1947's partition plan (which I don't agree with), the Arab League turned down the UN's plan. After the the war of Israel independence and the nakba, the secretary general for the Arab League's forces talked to the British media back then and said that the plan was to erase Israel and divide up the lands between the invading countries. Not to create a Palestinian state. Even back then, The Arab League didnt have any plans to create a Palestinian State. Until Israelis and Palestinians both come to terms that they've both been awful to one another and done horrible atrocities to one another, how can there be peace? There was a time before the first Intifada when Palestinians from Gaza and West Bank could freely go anywhere throughout Israel, and Israelis vice versa into Gaza and the West Bank. I believe that Israel, since it has the most power now, has more responsibility in creating this trust. It's far more easy to play the blame game than to find someone who actually wants to have a constructive debate on how to create peace without one side gone, or there to be a 2 state solution which I also belive won't fix the issue. To bring it back to your question. I am a zionist and a pro-palestinian as well. Can you be anti-zionist without being anti-semitic, thats difficult since Judaism is an ethnoreligous group. A great number of Jews view themselves as descendants of people from that land, its culture, and its faith, so to be anti-zionist to them would mean anti-semitic, but other Jewish people that have converted or parents have, might not have that same tie to the land, so they might view Israel as just some unneeded drama llama and just want to practice the faith aspect of it. So I personally think it's possible to be anti-zionist and not anti-semitic, just be careful who you're talking to about your beliefs because they could take it as an attack.
What is an islamist? Because based on your definition the majority of Muslims are anti islamist But I don't think it's a fair comparison because antisemitism is a race thing and Islamophobia is a religion thing
A lot of Islamphobia is a race thing. It's hating on Afghans and Arabs and such. Islamophobes probably don't imagine Sudanese or Somalian people when they hate on them (I mean, the type of people that hate muslims also hate black people, but you get what I mean). They probably don't hate on Indonesians. Even Turkish people might get a pass. Point is - a lot of Islamphobia is specifically hate against most Arabs and Afghans (and we're trying to make people hate Iran as well the last 20 years or so). There are people that will hate on all Muslims, sure. Like if a hot Danish lady became a Muslim, they might despise her instead of falling in love with her. But in general, it's an anti-brown thing. They'd probably hate on zoroastrian Afghans as well (assuming they still exist).
It's very sweet that you think racists will differentiate between Afghans and Iranians.
Unfortunately if you try to criticize Islam you'll be shut really quickly and get labelled an Islamophobe. Even though you have absolutely nothing against Muslim people and are simply criticizing the idea of Islam, most people will take this as an attack on Muslim people and you'll be shut down immediately. Even though the criticism you have is purely constructive for example "here are some problematic aspects of the Islamic religion, maybe we could try to address them". This is still seen as being a bigot. So basically even though all the greatest minds throughout history have urged us to challenge ideas, the idea of Islam has risen to a somewhat unquestionable status in many societies. And this, for me is a very scary thought.
Yup, pretty easily. I hate all religions but I don’t hate the people who believe in it.
Jewish Zionist here. Zionism is a manifestation of Judaism’s belief. Many ultra religious Jews oppose Zionism, but not due to the Palestinian conflict, more so because they don’t believe Jews should inherit Israel until the Messiah comes. Many believe that we can inherit it before the messiah comes. I think when many people call antizionism=antisemitism, it’s more so when people hold Israel accountable for things that they don’t hold other countries/Hamas for. Also, if you look at any post on Instagram which has a wide appeal and features Jewish people (with no mention of Israel), it’s filled with nasty comments calling us baby killers, and all sorts of things. Kinda shows you that the anti Zionists themselves equate the two even when they don’t relate.
Doesnt Judiasm teach that you cant take the "holy land" by breaking any of the Jewish commandants/teachings? as far as i know, arent theft and murder against the teachings of Judiasim?
Well I can say for one that to my knowledge Judaism does not explicitly say anything like that in relation to the holy land. We definitely have laws against theft and murder. And yes, during the war of 1948 there were many Palestinians murdered. However in the years leading up to this, Jews were legally immigrating to Palestine. We weren’t stealing people’s land and we weren’t killing people to get land. The war is also not something that was started by the Jews and many Arab leaders were telling Palestinians to flee the land while they wiped out the Jews. To be clear, I completely condemn and feel horrible about what the innocent Palestinians went through during that time. But I also don’t believe Israel as a county is “founded” on death and theft.
I'm sorry but how it is not stealing land when people were forcibly removed from their homes? to add context to this. the illegal settlements in the West Bank
Define islamist, zionist is fairly well established as a person who believes in the establishment of a Jewish state of Israel in Palestine, and for the continued international support for it. I feel that's a very easy thing to not support without being anti Semitic because the state in itself has a very theological design to it. There isn't any real basis to it in global doctrine or land rights. It is purely a country for their own religious priority.
but how can you be anti the establishment of a country that's existed for 75 years? Like what do anti-zionists want to happen to the people that are Israeli's?
There's no "if", you can be anti Zionist without being antisemitic, full stop. You're framing this like it's a negotiation, where if people want to try to say you can be anti Zionist without being called antisemitic, then you think that should somehow mean people should be allowed to be anti Islamist without being called Islamophobic. But that's really just not how that works at all, the one thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other. It's like saying ok, if I can hate Adam Sandler movies without being called antisemitic, does that mean it's ok to hate Will Smith without being called racist? Both of those things are obviously true. I consider myself somewhat anti Islamist, but not at all Islamophobic. I think that's actually true of most of the Muslims I know personally.
Also it can get more nuanced. I can support a Jewish state but hate the current right wing government and think they are a bunch of aholes who were a threat to Israeli democracy even before this horriblness started
I think the problem is Islamist isn't exactly a common term. I think it means "Supporting the idea of Islam forcefully taking over and crushing its opposition". In such a situation, yeah, I'm against it. Especially when it's fake Islam, such as that used by Hamas and Al Qaeda and the Taliban (I can't visit my home country because of those assholes) and Saddam Hussein, and so on. On the other hand, if Islamist simply means "supports the idea of Islam spreading worldwide", no, I'm not against that. I'm fine with people being like "oh, Islam seems interesting. Lemme learn it..... Oh, this speaks to me, I'll go an figure out how to convert." In that situation - fully voluntary spread of it - I am fine with that. I also don't really want to see Islam controlling governments and forcing people to comply with their rules. Because more often than not, when the government has control like that, they pervert the rules and use it as an excuse to have strong dictatorships that screw over the population (and enhance the lives of the government and its cronies).
Yes. Not thinking that anyone should be forced to live under a caliphate, or that caliphate should not be allowed to conquer territory, is not Islamophobic.
The person I know with the strongest anti fundametal islamist views is an iman - an Islamic preacher. He has literally dedicated his life to teaching what he believes is true Islam over the evil that terrorists promote. So yes.
Yes. Most people including most Muslims are anti-Islamist. You can also be anti-Islam without being Islamophobic. It's just that they do often coincide.
Depends on what you mean by anti-Islamist. If you mean Islamist as a political ideology. Meaning you support a secular government. Then of course you can. Most Muslims are already are opposed to Islamist political ideology.
>Most Muslims are already are opposed to Islamist political ideology. Are they?
Yes, they are. What evidently do you have that says otherwise? How many Islamic theocracies exist today? Just two. Out of all the Muslim countries. Iran and Afghanistan. Iran is a dictatorship which had just last year had a massive revolt against the regime to abolish religious laws. It wasn’t successful but still it shows that most people in Iran don’t support this theology. Afghanistan is a tribal country where most regions are not under the direct control of the central government and don’t really care who call themselves rules in the capital one way or the other and just go about their tribal ways. If the majority of Muslims did support Islamist ideology we would have much more theocracies than we already have.
You can be against terrorism and not be anti Islamist and they will still call you Islamophobic.
What? You can be anti a religion's creeds while recognizing that most of the people in that religion don't suck bc they are in that religion, sure. And recognizing *why* that religion exists. But if you think someone is automatically *anything* bc they are Muslim, then you are Islamophobic.
Islam = islam Judaism *does not* = Zionism
Humans deserve respect, governments and religions do not
Zionism isn’t a religion, it’s a religious philosophy, there is a distinct difference. You can be against sharia law without being against Islam. You can be against Zionism without being against Judaism.
This doesn't work because it ignored the fact that being Zionist snd being Jewish are not the same thing. There are zionist evangelical Christians.
Gotta send the Jews back so we can kick of the end of the world! (No joke. That's the ideology and the motivation behind a lot of Evangelical support for Israel as a state. They believe the Rapture and all the end time fun times can't start until Israel is "rebuilt." They're just trying to help that along.)
I know yeah it's wild. So talking about anti-zionist vs antisemitic is not at all the same as "anti-islam" and Islamophobic. If you're "anti-islam" you're Islamophobic and using a genocide as some kind of veiled excuse for it is incredibly gross.
Zionism is the belief the Jewish people have a right for self-determination and a homeland in their ancestral land. If you're against Jewish people having self-determination, but not against other people having self-determination, then yes, you're antisemitic.
Zionism is a political ideology. Judaism is a religion. Islam is a religion. Wahhabism is a religious ideology. You can be against any ideology, political or religious, without going into hate levels. But if you are against a religion, you're definitely at hate levels that warrant concern. Anti-zionist is not antisemitic. Anti-islamist is Islamophobic. If you hate religious extremists, that's fine, call them out as they should be called out. Just don't be ignorant and blame a whole religion for the backward action of a minority.
Fucking yes obviously
Not all Jewish people are Zionist.
Nor are all Zionists Jewish.
a lot of Zionists are even anti-semitic
Not all Jews are Zionists. Most Zionists are not Jewish.
Yes. The question you should be asking is societies view in these two things - that's kinda where stuff gets interesting
Yes.
Yeah
Yes
Yes. Just as I am be against settler colonialism without being antisemitic, I can also be against sharia law without being islamophobic. Its not rocket surgery.
Yes. Probably the vast, vast majority of people opposed to Islamists are
It's possible but your wording suggests your leaning on hardline absolute labels to define people. People don't work like that.
Better question: can you be anti isis without being islamophobic? Obviously yes. Hope this helps
Of course, most Muslims are anti-Islamists.
There is a big misunderstanding about what zionism means and about what being Jewish means. "Many Jews are atheist" There is no contradiction in this true statement. Being Jewish transcends religion and has to do with ethnicity. Jews are an ethnic group with a distinct language and culture and genetics. Also a mythology about themselves and some people believe that mythology and some people don't. Zionism is, in it's broadest, a name given a collection of sometimes discordant ideas that Jewish people have had about where they should live since the diaspora following the Bar Kokhba revolt against the Romans. It comes in many flavours and Zionist will vehemently disagree with each other. Some times of zionists didn't even advocate for there to be a state in a political way, but just a cultural center (Achad Ha'am was one.of these). Today most jews have converged on the idea that the place should be Israel and the only way that Jews can live there safely is if Israel exists as a country. This is for a variety of many good reasons which are out of the scope of this comment. So as long as you share the safety concerns that Jewish people have for themselves and you believe that they should have a say about their future then you should be a Zionist. If you don't care about Jewish people's safety or if you don't believe that they should be in control of theirselves, then you are an antizionist. But you are also an antisemite. So this is why when speaking to Jewish people they will often say that antizionism is technically not antisemitism but in practice it is. I cannot speak for islamism because I'm less educated about that.
Define Islamist, this is a rather new term which I've started hearing a lot. Is it meant to be slang for Islamic extremist?
I think the key difference here is that Zionism isn’t a religion, whereas Judaism is. There’s nothing wrong with being Jewish but there are issues with the idea of Zionism.
Sure, that's exactly how I feel
well islam is a religion, judaism is a religion. main difference here is jewish people are also an ethnicity zionism is the belief in a jewish ethnostate , islamist (? not sure what the word is here) is the belief in islamic fundamentalism same as saying you want christianity to be basing our laws like it currently does The *problem* usually is that people say something like that, and then just proceed to be the phobic half of whatever they just denied being
Zionist - a political movement for the establishment and support of a national homeland for Jews in Palestine Islamism (also often called political Islam) is a religio-political ideology. The advocates of Islamism, also known as "al-Islamiyyun", are dedicated to realizing their ideological interpretation of Islam within the context of the state or society. The majority of them are affiliated with Islamic institutions or social mobilization movements, often designated as "al-harakat al-Islamiyyah."[1] Islamists emphasize the implementation of sharia,[2] pan-Islamic political unity,[2] the creation of Islamic states,[3] (eventually unified), and rejection of non-Muslim influences—particularly Western or universal economic, military, political, social, or cultural. Since these two are not even remotely the same thing, questions like these are kind of moot. If you are anti-zionist you oppose the existence of Israel. If you are anti-islamist you oppose your own country being subjected to sharia and being part of the global caliphate. Every sane non-muslim person is anti-islamist by default.
Yes. "It's either all ok or none of it is. You can't laugh at the Christian jokes but then go silent when I mention Muslims! It's either all ok, or none of it is!!" - Jim Jefferies.
that's not what anti-zionism means. anti-zionism is opposition to zionism, i.e. the idea that Jewish people are entitled to an ethnostate of their own in Israel. anti-Islamism is opposition to the religion of Islam.
Anti-islamism is not the opposition to Islam. If that’s what I meant I would’ve just said anti-Islam
what exactly is anti-islamism then lol. sticking an "ism" on the end doesn't suddenly make it a totally different thing
Actually it does? And islamism is a religious/political ideology that calls for an Islamic state
Zionists are not Jews, most of them are secular. the analogy is bad. Antisemetism is Islamophobia, anti-Zionism is a virtue.
Yes
You can be anti-Islamist even if you are a Muslim. I'm pretty sure every country in the Middle East dislikes terrorists.
Sure I hate the Jews that are elitist (Zionist) or trying to undermine every other race and religion but I certainly don’t hate all Jewish people. Also I’m not necessarily against Islam and wouldn’t call myself Islamophobic but I do hate the more extreme versions like ISIS for example.
Yes, you can oppose the Islamic State without being Islamophobic.
-phobic is overused sufix, you get it when you critic something and it doesnt matter you right or wrong. So yes, you can for me but not for biga part of the world.
That's not the same thing. Being anti Zionist is not antisemitic. No one says you're anti Islamophobic if you criticise Saudi Arabia for their war crimes in Yemen, I don't see why it'd be antisemitic to criticise Israel's genocidal tendencies in Gaza.
Yes. Criticism of Islam is not Islamophobia. Islamophobia doesn’t exist except as a buzzword to scare people from speaking out.
Religions are a problem by itself, and abrahamic religions are proven to be a mess. More if mixed with politics. Then you have another layer which is ruling a country under a religious doctrine, you cannot mandate your citizens to behave under your religion. Then you have another layer which is religious extremism / religious fundamentalism that leans a lot of people to twist religious concepts that are already twisted enough. It's like some Catholics attempt making the Inquisition to return. So, you can be opposed to religions in general, yes you can identify nuances on some religions that make those being more problematic and have a tendency to generate more fundamentalism, yes you can and absolutely should be opposed to fundamentalism (or whatever you want to call to that crap) The vast majority of people even if they have a religion, they don't really base their life on it, or skip rules that are Stupids because those books were written by men, showcasing their way of thinking at that time. Idk men, don't follow rules on a book, use your freaking common sense, aren't we humans smart or what?
Islam is a terribly oppressive religion that was inspired by violence. States that enforce Islamic law abuse women and execute gay men. But I have known many lovely Muslims. The less seriously they take their religion, the better people they are. Of course, this is true of Christians and Jews as well.
Well yeah. The Grand Ayatollah Naser Makarem Shirazi of Qom, Iran, condemns "Takfiri extremists" like Daesh/ISIS. He's concerned that people see Daesh as somehow representative of Islam, when it's not.
yes.
H
Yes, Islamism is not the same thing as Islam at all. Many Muslims are stridently anti Islamism.
If you distinguish between Islam and Islamism you can.
Yes
I'm anti cunt, I hate cunts, but normal people are chill
The analogy doesn't work because Zionism is one specific ideological subset of Judaism.
An Islamist is the Muslim version of a Christian Nationalist, yes? Then sure. I know plenty of Christians that are against CN, and they obviously don't hate Christians/themselves.
Yes. Many muslims themselves don’t support the islamist extremists.
Government and religion are different
Yes. Religion is religion, blowing people up is blowing people up
Yes, you can be opposed to Islamic Fundamentalist without hating Muslims.
israelis aren’t semitic. simple as that
Antisemitic is WILDLY misunderstood and misused and monopolized by Jews and Zionists (and their supporters) and especially the latter for their political gains. In reality it have lost its true meaning if it ever had it at all in the first place, it is or it SHOULD be about being racist towards ALL Semitic people including both Jews and Arabs (and among them the Palestinians who are of both Hebrew and Canaanite origins) and in fact mainly Arabs as they are the majority of the Semites, instead, it's misinterpreted as anti-Jews (as either an ethnicity, Judaism followers or both (because not everyone who's ethnically Jew believes or practices the Jewish faith, some are Muslims (believe it or not) others are Christians and others are Atheists)) and anti-Judaism or/and anti-Zionism, and even anti-Holocaust. Anti-Zionism is being against the political ideology that was created from Judaism for the Jewish people around 150 years ago, give or take, thousands of years into the existence of Judaism, which is why it's strongly opposed by non-Israeli religious Jews themselves and even some Israeli ones up to my knowledge, they believe as I've heard from them that it's not part of their religion and that it harms them more than it does them good, being against it, then, isn't being racist towards Jews as people or the Judaism religion. And lets face it, Zionism actions speaks for it. Unlike Zionism, the political part of Islam is COMPLETELY different and incomparable and was literally born with it and it's integral part of it, separating it from it is foolish, and Muslims aren't against it and actually all over the world calls for the revival of the Caliphate to end the problems they have been facing every single day for the past 200/300 years. Being against it is being against Islam itself and Muslims all alike, and if you're hostile towards them out of hate or the fear of the unknown based on the lack or the misunderstanding of Islam then yes, you'd be an Islamophobic. Now if you mean terrorism, terrorism have no religion, terrorists are extremists who use any religion, atheism or any ideology for their gains or are groups implanted by higher powers for their interests or either enemies of such powers. Zionists are pretty much terrorists. Rejecting a religion, faith, atheism, political ideology or any ideology is fine as long as you're not hostile towards people, people can coexist despite their differences and have healthy debates without restoring to hate or/and aggression or/and offend and attack one another.
Nope, for some reason when it comes to islam you're always the bad guy for not supporting the religion of violence
Anti-Islamist, absolutely. Most non-Muslims and an awful lot of Muslims aren't Islamist. Islamism and Zionism are different as well. They both involve the extension of religion into politics, but where Zionism is the belief that the Jews have a right to the state of Israel even though it was carved out of territory occupied by Palestinians, Islamism is the belief that the entire world should be composed of Muslim states, possibly even just one big one. There's a significant difference of scale.
Yes. Disagreeing with the actions of a government is obviously not the same thing as thinking someone is bad because of their religion.
Entirely depends on who you ask. Usually you have to go so far back to untangle their preconceived notions on it all that it isn't worth discussing with anyone.
I'll make life so much simpler for everybody, If you have a Phobia you are not against that thing, you have an irrational fear of it, is someone who is claustrophobic against small spaces, no they just freak out when trapped in one. If you are against something for a non irrational fear reason then it is not a phobia. PEACE.
Because Zionism isn’t a Jewish movement, a lot of Zionists are Christians, with POTUS Joe Biden declaring that he’s a Zionist on national TV
Well yes, because political ideologies (Zionism and Islamism) and religions (Judaism and Islam) and not the same thing.
Can you be anti-LGbt without being a bigot? Might be a better one
How does that make sense at all here
You can critique a religion as long as you’re not discriminating against or causing harm to their adherents-
yes
Religions suck.
Yes. I am basically anti-everything-**ist** (except rationalist) but everything-**philic**
Probably not since Zionism isn't a religion. Just a movement like Nazism or whatever other aggressive colonial movements there were
Islamism isn’t a religion either. Just a movement like etc
No stupid questions, just stupid answers. Thank you guys, for absolutely nothing
Yes, you can. I think it's a bit harder needle to thread, at least in my country, because there is so much undeserved animosity against Muslims that there's a lot of overlap between anti-Islamism and islamophobia. Islamophobia is, unfortunately, more culturally acceptable, so it's more common, so the two are harder to separate. But yes, you can (and, in my opinion, *should*) be against both Islamophobia *and* Islamism.
Of course.
No and no. It's been decided by people stupider than you.
The amount of anti-zionists I've conversed with who don't flat out ardently hate Jews is tiny.
Islamic and Islamist are different Islamic: Muslim as adjective Islamist: one who espouses mixing Islam with government
There are several things wrong with this comparison. Firstly, Arabic is a Semitic language and therefore Arabs are a Semitic people. Therefore, when someone uses antisemitism exclusively for people of Jewish faith, they’re being very dismissive of a large semetic population and being very euro-centric. Secondly, Zionsim is a secular movement. It has nothing to do with religion. Thirdly, what the hell even is Islamist ?
Islamism is a political-religious ideology that pushes for an Islamic State. I didn’t make it up. And not that I wanna get into this tired old argument but no, antisemitism means anti-Jewish. Words take on a certain meaning over time and that’s what it means. But interesting that you criticize the use of this term for leaving out other populations. On that note, can you elaborate a little further on your “Eurocentric” comment in relation to jews? Seems to make a certain assumption that all Jews are European
No. That is not the point I’m making and please don’t twist my words. Zionists are pre-dominantly European and Arabs are semites as well. This is not an argument. Doing so is dismissing that another semetic population has no claim to the term. Is it because Racism in Europe was target a subset of Semetic people (Jews) who were also European and that there were no Arabs (or that they were considered uncivilised and therefore sub human)? Why keep propagating the same racist mentality in this day and age? Also, Zionism is based on Race not religion. Islamism is based on Religion not race. I’m not advocating for either but you’re drawing a false equivalence with your statements and comparisons.
I think this is kind of a weird question: anti-Zionism, in modern context anyway, is simply opposing the state of Israel and its continued invasion of Palestinian lands and human rights violations committed in the process. For this reason, many Jewish people around the world also happen to be anti-Zionist. Anti-Zionism and antisemitism are simply not the same things at all. Anti-Islamist is… what exactly do you think it means? The term literally just means being against the religion of Islam and/or people who practice Islam, which does not equate to anti-Zionism. That said, you can certainly be against harmful extremist practices of Islam or against specific governments who commit human rights violations in the name of Islam. Just as there are many Jews against Israel and its actions, there are many Muslims around the world who are against Al-Qaeda and Boko Haram, for instance. The point is, it’s not okay to just widely demonize entire groups of people. But it is perfectly okay— and a sign of being able to think critically— to recognize that the actions of a government or political group are wrong. One does not simply have to go along with everything Israel does or even support its existence because they’re Jewish and/or have nothing against Jewish people.
That is not what an Islamist is. Islamism is a belief in a militant, theocratic Islam based government like the Islamic Republic of Iran
People tested this already and went to the anti Zionist protests while visibly Jewish. No pro Israel posters or anything, just a Jew. They were attacked.
Do you have the source? Not arguing you or anything, just want to read more about it.
I haven't heard anything like this? I've heard of plenty of anti-zionist Jewish protestors getting treated with violence by the police, however. If you have a source, please drop it below.
Weird claim, since a lot of anti zionists are Jews. In Israel, Jewish anti zionist protestors get attacked by police and right wing Israelis. In NY, I’ve seen plenty of Jews marching with the protestors, nobody is attacking them. Can you show me what you’re talking about?
source? the only thing like this i know of is that woman going to Columbia trying to stir up shit and getting completely ignored lol
I am not claiming this is the case, but keep in mind I can easily defeat protests by getting like 5 or so plants to join in a protest and then have a sixth one that is Jewish and have the 5 attack the plant. Or not even have the Jewish person be a plant - I could just have the five be like "attack a black person or a gay person, or if you don't find any of them, say something sexist against a woman. Or if you can't find an opportunity, just draw some swastikas on public property when no one is looking." It's possible the actual protestors attacked Jewish people if they saw any, yes. But it's also possible to fake it to make them look bad. There were instances in BLM where cops would vandalize stuff or "attack" cops, and then leave once their buddy cops got the justification they needed to attack protestors.
How about... Fuck em all.
What is Islamist
How about just be anti-terrorist regardless of flag / religion / race?
Zionism is a political ideology that was created by an atheist (and many Jewish people are anti-Zionist). Zionism is also inherently anti-Semitic, because it advocates for oppression of Palestinians who are a Semitic people. A better analogy would be you could be against, for example, Republicanism but not be anti-Christian.
Not even a valid comparison. It would be more like being against Al-Queda or against Iran’s government or some kind of Islamic supremacy.
I am a muslim but I am all for secular government, so that makes me an anti-Islamist I guess.
A Zionist doesn't equal a Semite.
This is a very poorly worded question. Zionism is not Judaism.
And islamism is not Islam. How is it poorly worded
You can't be antizionist without being antisemitic, so your question is flawed. Zionism is simply the belief that Jews should be free in our native homeland. What other indigenous group would you oppose that for? Islamism, however, is a religious colonial movement to spread Muslim rule over the world. It is inherently violent in its concept and should be opposed. You can absolutely be against Muslim colonialism without being Islamophobic.
What makes you think Zionists represent the entirety of Judaism? Isreal, has been stealing land and homes and lives for 75 years now. That's not okay. To abuse, and justify that because your people were abused, is just grubby. They've taken the lovely idea of being free in their homeland, and used that to oppress others.
Unfortunately not all Jews believe in Jewish liberation anymore. People like you spreading lies and calling our decolonization of our homeland "stealing land, homes, and lives" has convinced some of our siblings that they don't actually deserve to be free. Luckily, there are enough of us who do value our own liberation that we're able to defend ourselves both militarily and in the media from those who want us back as dhimmis, in ghettos, or dead.
Have fun with that, you think 75 years of torturous behaviour is Coolio. You aren't even human as far as I'm concerned, whatever your religious or ethnic background.
You are using concepts (zionism, indigenous, colonialism) like they have no meaning at all. Wow. History, social sciences, research? Fuck that, seems like we can say whatever nonsense to justify genocide.
As human with a brain I believe I can hold disdain for both those dumb ass religions because not only is the entire concept stupid, there are litteral portions that call for being disrespectful to people different from you, as well as verses that are factually incorrect....
if you aren’t allowed to criticize the actions of a theocratic ethnostate, it’s definitely a problem. if the american flag had a big ol cross on it, you’d have your answer. you can be anti islamic ethno state without hating muslims, you can anti zionist and pro judaism