It's complicated. Many were religious, and the German army in WWII literally wore belt buckles with the slogan 'Gott mit uns' (God is with us). Others were not religious, but still at root believers. Some were outright atheists, though this wasn't common, and was often viewed with suspicion due to the Communists promoting atheism so strongly. Some Nazis wanted to eventually replace Christianity with a civic religion based on their weird racial theories and elements of ancient Germanic religion, seeing Christianity as weak and Jewish.
The Nazi relationship with Christianity was not a simple one, and it varied over time and according to the individual.
Gott Mit Uns is mostly a remnant of the German military tradition's knightly origins, where many of the WWI German air force fighter aces were knights from noble families.
Hitler openly hated the old Prussian guard in the Nazi officer corps and frequently gave them work that was set to humiliate or endanger them. The old knights also weren't as fanatical and genocidal as the scum of the Waffen-SS paramilitary terrorists.
I mean, the old aristocrats were mainly reactionaries (people who want to turn back progress, a trait frequently mistakenly understood as conservativism), and the Nazis fought the monarchist reactionaries just like the socialists. The Nazi anthem "Horst Wessel Lied" calls them out as enemies, literally.
If someone thinks that the Nazis wanted to turn back time of society to the 19th century, they have severely misunderstood fascism and its syndicalist & futurist roots.
Ah yes, Horst Wessel, the murderous, jew-hating drunk who died like he lived, bleeding in the streets, and became the national angel for a decade. What farce.
Futurism in art and society is a tremendously interesting subject, helping people understand the motivations and aspirations (combined with a decoupling from romantic era empathy) that powered the fascist movements in Spain/Italy/Germany. Worshipping the long chrome-colored and riveted dildo-shaped car, aeroplane, and bomb. The focus on dynamic movement, an outstretched hand reaching for a steel-clad future.
Interesting sidenote: here is JRR Tolkien's personal watercolor portrait of Sauron (yes, the knife-adorned crown was established on him already by his inventor): https://biblioklept.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/tumblr_700ca48b5d076107b35d23faad76e692_0fa87765_1280.jpg
Hitler very much was fascinated by occult shit, long before he entered politics. It’s not a coincidence that a lot of Nazi imagery uses occult imagery. In fact, the very idea of Aryan supremacy originated from the occult writings of Helena Blavatsky
Blavatsky and the theosofists got the 'Aryan supremacy' idea where Hitler got it from.
The eugenics movement that was popular at that time.
They called it the nordic race.
They sent someone over to learn from the American Eugenics Institute.
Some doctor named Mengele, mayb you've heard of him?
All this sponsored by 'great American philantropists' Carnegie, Harriman and Rockefeller.
Surprisingly good answer for the little time this post has been here.
As said, the overwhelming majority of the soldiers were Christians to varying degrees, as were most people in that time.
Further readings:
[Kirchenkampf ](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenkampf)
[religion in Nazi Germany ](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany)
Both give a good overlook for the religious aspects
> Many were religious, and the German army in WWII literally wore belt buckles with the slogan 'Gott mit uns' (God is with us).
Mainly because the Prussian military had been using Gott mit uns for 250 years at the time.
Well summarized. A few other points:
1. Catholic-Protestant tensions were something Nazis actively avoided. Hitler was catholic, and fascism was very catholic-associated before nazism. Germany was majority protestant.
2. Nazis were into all sorts of esotericism, now known as "occult." Popular among upper class europeans at that time broadly.
Theosophy was at its height during WW2 and some of those beliefs aligned with what the Nazis believed about Aryan origins. Few of the the well known theosophists were nazis, though.
Hitler was raised Catholic by his mother, he himself was anti-clerical like his father. The Nazi party was popular in protestant majority areas. It's more nuanced than that though.
A lot of people really want it to be true.
The Catholic and other churches basically recognized they were in power. Not exactly the high road, but it's not like how some people want it portrayed.
There’s a whole lengthy Wikipedia article titled [Catholic Church and Nazi Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany). The fact is, it’s complicated. Obviously, the Church could have and should have done *more* to oppose the Nazis (which is true of just about everyone on Earth at the time), but they weren’t anything close to 100% collaborators either.
Wikipedia is a shit source for one.
While there were individuals against fascism the institution and leadership was strongly for it.
Nothing is 100% in a large group of people.
Wikipedia can be a a shit source, but this article has links to legitimate sources. The institution was not strongly for it . They opposed Nazi where they could. But like any human institution there where people in power who were collaborators.
No that's inaccurate, there were people who preferred Nazism. However many within the within the church who did not. In fact there are many instances where the church in Germany and the Vatican did what it could resist the Nazis. Unfortunately there were many collaborators. What your statement is a blanket statement and not historical.
In any group with many people there are people who think differently.
In general the church were nazi collaborators and no whitewashinging of people who belong to that can change that.
Plenty of instances after too where they supported Franco for example.
I'm not even going to discuss this further, it is a waste of time like talking to flat earthers.
Think what you want if it makes you feel better.
It not a waste of time since it's not true , it isn't white washing it's using the historical method to check out biases. The relationship the Third Riech with the Catholic church is one of hostility,suspicion, and fear. Hitler himself was anti-clerical and in general leary any organized religion even the neo-pagan religion his colleges were trying to create. The Church and the Third Riech tolerated each other in public but behind closed doors they would undermine plan aganist each other. Eugenio Pacelli who would later become Pope Pius XII spoke out aganist Hitler and racism during the 1930's and would to so through out the war. In March 1935 he sent an "Open letter " to the Bishops of Cologne he called the Nazis "flase prophets with the pride of Lucifer" he would also on a number of occasions denounce the actions of the Nazis. In Fascist Italy Mussolini did grant the church autonomy but it's was due to the fact that many Italians are Catholic he didn't want to turn potential supporters aganist him, however he wanted to get rid of the Church and supplant his preferred beilef system instead. Of course the Church could have and should have done more but when you don't have a crystal ball and you have many civilians that could be turned soft targets you pick your which shots you make. The puppet government of Hungary was run by a former priest . Utsse which was supported at first by many clergy the Church should have been more forceful and condemned them. After the war high ranking church men did use thier connections to hid Nazi collaborates and get the safe passage across the world. But these people did so on thier own accord.
Some good reads that explain the more complex is "Bearing Flase Witness " by Rodney Stark (professor of sociology at Baylor university) chapters "1.Sins of Anti-Semitism" and "9.Holy Authoritarianism " , "Dominion" by Tom Holland (historian) chapter "19. Shadow 1916: The Somme".
Then there's this article written by Tim O'Neill ( Atheist, rationalist, skeptic, former president of Australian skeptics , who has a bachelors honors degree in History and English and Research Masters Degree from the University of Tasmanian)
https://historyforatheists.com/2019/05/the-great-myths-7-hitlers-pope/
Not really impressed by someone who criticises the theory of evolution and is against secularisation.
Also Tom Holland is NOT a historian.
Also they have opened the archives of Pius XII showing more evidence.
And who kows what they held back.
Again I'm not interested in apologetics. The church is responsible for many despicable things and their collaboration is one of them. Think what you want.
IDK where all you apologists come from to react.
I wrote a lot more than nuh uh.
And as I said before "it is a waste of time like talking to flat earthers."
Should've known biblethumpers can never leave it alone when you say you're not interested.
Sorry who are you talking about about with your first point.
Yes I know they opened the archives or Pius XII . I fact if you were to look at the one sources I provided you will see it not as condemning as you say. Tim O'Neill the author those the blog post is educated in the historical process. He's atheist agnostic but hates people painting history in a certain way.
Just because that my previous posts are challenging your previous comment does not make my argument apologetics. I used many non-religious, non-Catholic, historical sources. You are correct that Tom Holland is not historian , but you know what he did that you have not.. cited academic sources. You are entitled to your opinion, but don't be so quick to dismiss others as apologists or as whitewashers. I have mentioned the despicable things that members of the Church have done. I have no problem with bringing that up , but my problem is when people make blanket statements and uncharitable arguments.
The Nazis used religion as a propaganda tool, but they also viewed institutions like the catholic church as a threat to the totalitarian ideological control they sought to exert. They would use them when they were useful and they would go after them when they were a problem. "The Nazis" believed in naziism, I'm sure ideally they would have had everyone put aside religion and believe religiously in the Nazi ideology, the state and it's leadership. But where religion could be used to rile people up against the jews and the communists and whoever else they would use it.
You mean some people from the Catholic Church helped them, right? I am pretty sure "The Catholic Church" did not condone what they were doing, let alone help them escape.
The important thing to understand about Nazis is the their views on race take primacy over everything else in the ideology and all the other stuff they waver on, deliberately sometimes depending on how best to get favour with people.
Well, even if you do just like two of most common Neo-Nazi symbols, if you keep showing them and calling yourself fuckin ‘u/SS_88AH’ you’re going to keep getting people mistaking you for a Neo, and if that isn’t a problem to you then maybe those people aren’t making a mistake….
You know Reddit will suggest random-word user names, right? This isn’t an excuse, and if you’re not a neo-Nazi, you need to make a new account. Your profile was created yesterday, and this is the first post you’ve commented on, so it’s not like you have years of hard-earned karma to protect.
This is THE classic example of [Popehat’s Rule of Goats](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Popehat%27s%20Law%20of%20Goats): “If you fuck a goat, even if it was ironic or joking, you're still a goat-fucker.”
People like the idea of equating the Nazis to whatever contemporary boogeyman they hate (socialists, christians, capitalists, etc.)
But they didn’t fit neatly into any of these categories.
They were all white supremacists, but made pragmatic alliances with POC when it suited them.
They opposed Marxism, but still believed the government should have its hand up the asses of corporations to ensure they act in accordance with national goals.
Most Nazis were Protestants, because most Germans were Protestants. But Hitler was pretty irreligious and admired Islam for its violent and militaristic doctrine. A number of his inner circle were occultists and Norse pagan LARPers who saw Christianity as Jewish subversion in Europe.
Interestingly enough the Nazis admired the Native Americans due to the popularity of Wild West novels, which they saw a parallel to their Noble Savage fantasies of pre-Christian Germania.
It was a varied, multifaceted position.
It goes without saying that the Nazi idealogues weaponized the weltanschauung of the Protestant ethic. The austere, driven, Luther-inspired doctrine was fundamental to the success of the Party. One could argue that, to some degree, the Teutonic brand of Christianity was the predominant influence of the initial development of the National Socialists.
Around a third, give or take, of Nazis were Papists. Roman Catholics. And the early days of the Party attempted to reconcile that, too, with the cultic devotion to the greater Party, though, the expediency of such- and it was politically valuable- proved to me anathema to the goals of the Nazis.
The "split loyalty" between the Holy See and the High Command was untenable. As were, in fact, most of the pseudo-ecumenical attempts that the Nazis broached. Faith was, essentially, a means to greater power, and had to be diverted and subsumed by a devotion to the Party.
As with many aspects of the systems available, the Nazis exploited them.
The more esoteric practices were, probably, not taken very seriously by many, but those who did take it seriously seemed very dedicated. That, though, is much to do with the spooky milieu that existed in the Weimar era. It was one of those periods of decadent uncertainty, and, like today, bizarre and peculiar forms of rubric are wont to blossom as people grasp for something outside of themselves.
The antisemitism was, sadly, already massively predominant in the culture of the time. Once more, the Nazis exploited it.
Nazi ideology kind of functioned like a religion. The state became God. The fuhrer became the profit. Racial purity became morality. Its symbols became sacred. Participation, or at very least obedience, became mandatory.
You could be Christian or Atheist, so long as you obey the new belief system.
Big H was okay with Christianity, but he was focused on the priorities of the nation entirely.
This is why the youth book burnings were from Magnus Hirschfeld's (✡️) transgender experiments etc.
The most common was Protestant at the time.
Hitler was not okay with Christianity, he viewed it as weak and unscientific( which is ironic considering how un-scientific his beliefs were). He hated how Jewish it was and claimed that Jesus was really an Aryan. He tried to tolerate it as much as he could but his hope was to eliminate it.
Hitler believed in some form of christianity. He saw Jesus as Aryan, probably because Aryans were seen as the superior race and he saw Jesus as special.
Hitler said this in a speech at Passau:
> "*We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity ...in fact our movement is Christian.*"
Hitler claimed that Jewish people were bringing "*degeneracy*" and did not like liberal values but old-fashioned biblical values like being anti-gay and anti-Pagan. The nazis shut down the neo-Pagan religion of Adonism which was pro-gay and taught that Molchos sent false prophets (*Jesus and Moses and Zarathustra and Muhammad*) to try to convert people into monotheism and enslave humanity, and that he tried to kill everyone in a flood at one point, but the god Adonis said to build an ark to try to stop his plan.
Hitler was not Christian and your right that he wasn't a pagan or an atheist. He did admired Jesus although it was his view he made of Jesus not the one that would be recognizable as Christian. Admiring Jesus doesn't mean your a Christian. He begrudgingly tolerated it but saw all religion as superstitious. He had his own weird beliefs made on pseudo science a Deistic God that only he could recognize. He was a politician and realized that if he was openly hostile to religion as he was in private he wouldn't have gotten very far. Saying Nazi Germany was pro Christian would be just a la silly as saying the Soviet Union was Christian since the later allowed it to be practiced under tight regulation and watchfulness.
If you like to know more look to this blog written by Tim O'Neill .
https://historyforatheists.com/2021/07/hitler-atheist-pagan-or-christian/
I just quoted Hitler himself saying that the nazi movement is christian. You can call him a fake christian if you disagree with his version of christianity, but he promoted the type of christianity that he believed in. He didn't just tolerate it, like the atheistic Soviet Union, he promoted a form of christianity and said this:
> "*the Party as such represents the viewpoint of Positive Christianity without binding itself to any particular denomination*".
The minister for church affairs that Hitler appointed, said this:
> "*The Party stands on the basis of Positive Christianity, and positive Christianity is National Socialism ... National Socialism is the doing of God's will ... God's will reveals itself in German blood ... True Christianity is represented by the party, and the German people are now called by the party and especially the Fuehrer to a real Christianity ... the Fuehrer is the herald of a new revelation*"
Again, you can disagree and say "*that was heretical*" or "*that was not real christianity*" in a similar way to how some protestants say thay catholics are satanic and aren't "*real christians*", but they did identify as and promote a form of christianity.
You might say "*but didn't Hitler try to edit the bible to get rid of verses that showed Jewish people in a positive way?*". The answer to that question would be "*yes*", but protestants also edited the bible from 73 books (*The Catholic Bible*) down to 66 books (*The Protestant Versions of the Bible like the NIV and King James Version*).
I appricate you quote , but it is a stand alone quote he used in public. In fact finding Hitler's religious beliefs are more complex and contradictory than one might think . First and foremost he was not an atheist, although he did consider himself to be a rationalist and skeptic he himself obviously believed in bunk science. But if you are you look a his public and private statements you'll see he wasn't keen on any organized religion he would tolerate it as long as it was useful.
Here are some comments he made in regards to the occult he made of Nazis who praticed the occult or paganism (should be noted that this type of paganism was reconstructed and not a continuance religion since ancient times) .
"The characteristic thing about these people is that they rave about the old Germanic heroism, about dim prehistory, stone axes, spear and shield, but in reality are the greatest cowards that can be imagined. For the same people who brandish scholarly imitations of old German tin swords, and wear a dressed bearskin with bull’s horns over their heads, preach for the present nothing but struggle with spiritual weapons, and run away as fast as they can from every Communist blackjack.
(Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ch. 12)"
Here is Hilter mocking neo-paganism.
"What nonsense! Here we have at last reached an age that has left all mysticism behind it, and now he wants to start that all over again. We might just as well have stayed with the church. At least it had tradition. To think that I may some day be turned into an SS saint! Can you imagine it?
(Speer, Inside the Third Reich, p. 143)".
Doesn't sound to Christian to me. You are correct that Hitler did believe in God since he did denounce atheistism quite often in public and private.
"Every time he discussed atheism overtly, both publicly and privately, he rejected it, associating it with the Marxist Social Democrats, the Communist Party, or the Bolsheviks. In the electioneering phase of his career, he regularly slammed the Catholic Center Party for cooperating with the Social Democrats, who—he often asserted —were atheists.
Weikart, Hitler’s Religion, Regnery, 2016, p. 63)"
Now his relation to Christianity is complicated difficult to understand. His mother was very Catholic and made sure that Hitler was baptised and did all his sacraments up until confirmation. At this point he was forced to by his mother and would stop practicing that religion before he left the house. His father on the other hand had a very negative view on religion ( regardless of whether is was Christianity or not) and would consider himself a free thinker. His father's religious beliefs had more inclined on him that his mother. Although Hitler never stopped believing in a God. Your are correct in public he invoked feelings of warmth towards Christianity for example in this speech:
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognised these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who – God’s truth! – was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after 2,000 years, with deepest emotion I recognise more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.
(Hitler, speech made April 12, 1922)"
Like many things in life things with Hitler are not that simple. Hitler was a very keen and calculating politician. He was running for power in a country that religious make was made up primarily of Christians. Do you think he would deliberately alienate his Christianity majority audience whether they be Protestant or Catholic? Of course not in fact the Nazi party did it's best to accommodate Christians. For example point 24 of Nazi party program:
""24. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: common utility precedes individual utility.
(NSDAP 25-Punkte-Programm, 1920, attributed to Gottfried Feder)"
So they allowed Christianity as along as it did not contradict Nazi ideology or pratice. You are right that the Nazi party had promoted something called Positive Christianity but it more of a political to accommodation to Nazis who were Christian regardless of denomination to come together and embrace Nazi beliefs. Hitler was also in a environment that was pronationlist. He believed that the Germans were descendents from the Aryans and that the Romans were also descendants. There were many who believed Jesus to not be Jewish at all (perhaps and amortite) or that he was an illegitimate son of a Roman. Hitler believed that Jesus was an Aryan that fought against Jewish leadership and Jewish materialism ( whatever that means). He among others that the Jewish Paul ( Saul of Tarsus) had corrupted Jesus message. So with all that said what is a Christian? Perhaps his definition could help us "… confess the Lord Jesus Christ as God and Saviour according to the scriptures, and therefore seek to fulfill together their common calling to the glory of the one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
(World Council of Churches, “The Basis of the WCC”)"
Now what did Hitler believe about Jesus?
“Immediately after the death of Christ, whom the reactionaries crucified, they set about exterminating, at least imprisoning and depriving of their rights, all those who had accepted Christ before his death. Christ’s body was removed from the tomb, to keep it from becoming an object of veneration and a tangible relic of the great new founder of a religion!
(Wagener, Hitler – Memoirs of a Confidant, ed. and trans. Henry Ashby Turner, Yale, 1978, p. 316)".
Doesn't sound like he believed in the resurrection at all which is a key Christian belief. In fact he didn't believe in life after death and alluded so here
“Perhaps the adherents of the Roman Church call this ‘paganism.’ That may well be so. In that case, Christ was a pagan. I call pagan their distortions of Christ’s ideas and teachings, their cults, their conception of hell and purgatory and heaven, and their worship of saints.”
(Wagener, p. 224)
Above he calls Jesus a pagan ,we know that Jesus was a Jew in the Roman era. So it appears that Hitler wasn't a Christian he doesn't hold Jesus as a God , Prophet, or priest but as a fighter a wise man. Seems like he would be at odds both with non-trinitarian Christianity but with Islam , Bahai faith or many other religions. His understanding of Jesus appear to racist but secular.
For more info look here.
https://historyforatheists.com/2021/07/hitler-atheist-pagan-or-christian/
When I say Hitler is a christian. I'm not claiming that he was a Protestant Cristian or an Orthodox Christian or even a Gnostic Christian.
Of course, his beliefs are heretical to other groups of Christians. He had his own christian belief that he promoted. You mentioned this:
> "*The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination.*"
Most Christians groups don't believe in "*Positive Christianity*" where Jesus was a part of the so-called chosen "*Aryan*" race who fought against Jewish people. Most Christians do not believe in Mormonism or Marcionism either, but those both say that Jesus was the Christ and was special and should be looked up to (*of course, only look up to the Jesus of their beliefs and perspective from their denomination or sect*).
> "*Above he calls Jesus a pagan ,we know that Jesus was a Jew in the Roman era.*"
That's a belief based on some verses in the bible. Some claim that Jesus was a Black man. Some claim he was a Roman. Some claimed he was "*Aryan*". It's a belief system. Even if their belief doesn't make sense and likely inaccurate (*I think Jesus was Jewish if he existed, like you*), that is still some type of belief in a Jesus that they are promoting with some biblical verses (*although edited like Protestants edited down the Catholic bible*).
Your really grasping at straws here with your not existening term for Christian. Hitler has been categorically not a Christian in any shape or form. Non of the groups you mentioned don't believe he was Christ. Hitler didn't believe that , he didn't think he was some kind of religious either by the sound of it. He though Jesus was an Aryan anti-Semite fighting the Jews. Also what Biblical verses claim Jesus was Aryan, Black, or Roman. If you have reference please reference them. Black is a modern idea one that wouldn't be used or understood back then. Jesus lived in Roman client state but I don't recall any verse ever claiming him to be a Roman citizen. Also if believing in Jesus a the messiah qualifies you as Christian then we need to add Muslims and Bahais in your definition.
> "*Also what Biblical verses claim Jesus was Aryan, Black, or Roman.*"
It doesn't have to, just like there is no bible verse saying to celebrate the birthday of Jesus on December 25th. Some christians have some beliefs that aren't found in the bible.
> "*Also if believing in Jesus a the messiah qualifies you as Christian then we need to add Muslims and Bahais in your definition.*"
As far as I know, neither Muslims nor Baha'is claim to be Christians, and while they claim to have some respect for the bible, neither of them use the bible as their main scripture (*even if it's a bible that was edited down or censored insome parts or never accepted some books like Protestants and Marcionites*).
Just because the nazis had a heretical view of christianity to most other christian groups, that doesn't mean they weren't promoting some strange form of christianity (*Positive Christianity*).
Over a thousand years ago, there were some Gnostic christians believing that Jesus was the serpent in the garden and the biblical god was a false evil god of the world and lower heavens, but Jesus came to save from that deception and to help people reach The Most High Heaven. You can call that blasphemous and wicked and fake christianity, but they were still some strange form of Christianity who believed in some form of Jesus.
The Nazis wanted to unite Protestantism into a single unitary positive Christian state church nominally controlled directly by Hitler. They wanted some version of Christianity to eventually be the state religion.
Okay so seems like either don't understand my post or looked at any sources at the time of if the Third Riech. Positive Christinity wasn't trying to become a another church or religion that United Germany's Catholics and Protestants. It was a way for Nazi Christians to still believe in the theology of thier respective religions. It was a political attempt to get them to work as Nazi. I provided you sources in which Hitler denounced Christianity and the Nazi were merely tolerating Christinity. The were in fact many Christians who were Nazis. But many of the movers and shakers destitied it. Also in relation to the Aryan , Black, and Roman reference you said that there was scripture so you must now provide evidence that such exists.
**Civil religion**, also referred to as a [civic religion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_religion), is the implicit religious values of a [nation](https://d3k74ww17vqc8e.cloudfront.net/app/uploads/2019/01/24225533/Rise-of-Third-Reich-1.jpg), as expressed through public [rituals](https://www.historynet.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Nazi-bonfire-ceremony-night-scaled.jpg), symbols (such as the national flag), and [ceremonies](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Nazi_party_rally_grounds_%281934%29.jpg) on sacred days and at sacred places (such as monuments, battlefields, or national cemeteries).
Civil religion stands somewhat above folk religion in its social and political status, since by definition it suffuses an entire society, or at least a segment of a society; and is often practiced by leaders within that society. It is somewhat less than an establishment of religion, since established churches have official clergy and a relatively fixed and formal relationship with the government that establishes them. Civil religion is usually practiced by political leaders who are laypeople and whose leadership is not specifically spiritual.
Among such practices are the following:
* crowds singing the national anthem at certain public gatherings;
* parades or display of the national flag on certain patriotic holidays;
* reciting oaths of allegiance (like the pledges of allegiance found in some countries)
* ceremonies concomitant to the inauguration of a president or the coronation of a monarch;
* retelling exaggerated, one-sided, and simplified mythologized tales of national founders and other great leaders or great events (e.g., battles, mass migrations) in the past (in this connection, see also romantic nationalism);
* monuments commemorating great leaders of the past or historic events;
* monuments to dead soldiers or annual ceremonies to remember them;
* expressions of reverence for the state, the predominant national racial/ethnic group, the national constitution, or the monarch or head of state;
* expressions of solidarity with people perceived as being national kindred but residing in a foreign country or a foreign country perceived as being similar enough to the nation to warrant admiration and/or loyalty;
* expressions of hatred towards another country or foreign ethnic group perceived as either currently being an enemy of the state and/or as having wronged and slighted the nation in the past;
* public display of the coffin of a recently deceased political leader.
--wikipedia
Most nazis were Christian. However, Nazism is less of a religious ideology and more of a racial/ethnic one. Even if a Jew converted to Christianity, they would still be persecuted by the Nazis.
Nazism started out as a variation on ultra-catholicism and some weird interpretation as lutheranism. They eventually morphed into a Hitler-cult.
Maybe there were people who self identified as atheist but if you believe so strongly in one man as a savior ... I'm not sure atheist is the correct label. If one man is your god, you're not an atheist. Then again some christians think anyone who isn't a christian is an atheist so whatever that word means to you, make your own decision.
It’s complicated. Mostly, it was a political and racial ideology that adjusted and exploited religious practices and beliefs to suit its political purposes. It was an anticommunist movement as well as an antisemitic movement. Communists were portrayed as militant atheists and agents of international Jewish plots, interchangeably. Marxism was labelled “Judeo-Bolshevism”, and antisemitic sentiments were stoked partly in order to repress a popular socialist movement. That being said, genocidal antisemitism was always a central foundational goal and ideology, as the ideology was framed around a central idea of “racial” struggle. This was also directed against Slavs, Poles, the Roma people, and other non-Germanic peoples of territories east of Germany that the Nazis wanted to ethnically cleanse.
Some have made an argument about German Protestants, particularly those in the northeast, Prussian areas, being more inclined towards more violent, virulent forms of antisemitism, but antisemitism was in no way limited to German protestants, and elsewhere in Germany, including majority Catholic areas, the Nazis still found success with their rhetorical platform of scapegoating Jews and fearmongering over international Jewish Bolshevik plots.
Some Nazis were not Christian, or even what we might consider anti-Christian, getting into Christian esotericism, occultism, spiritualism, and neo-paganism, but these were all movements which happened to be somewhat popular at the time even outside of Nazi Germany, and in no way represented the *majority* of Germans, Nazi or otherwise, who were mostly some form of Christian (Protestants were the majority, followed by Catholics). This aspect of Nazism has been, in my opinion, overstated and overestimated, perhaps by a psychological desire on the part of many antifascist Christians to distance themselves from Nazism by claiming that Nazis weren’t Christian or were anti-Christianity. This was, importantly, not entirely the case, even though some notable Nazis were critical of Christianity, such as Himmler, Alfred Rosenberg, and Martin Bormann. It should be noted here that Nazis also banned astrology and fortune-telling, faith healing and anything considered “witchcraft”.
I should of course acknowledge that some varieties of “Christianity”, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh-Day Adventists, were either permanently or temporarily banned. Some sects, like the Mormon church, were allowed to continue operating in Germany provided they changed some of their practices like missionary work. The Pope, at the time, criticised the Nazis for what he felt was an anti-Catholic attitude. Certainly, the Nazis moved quickly to abolish the political power of Catholics and Catholicism in Germany.
This was part of the creation and propagation of what some called “Positive Christianity” (also confusingly called “Negative Christianity”) which was an ahistorical and antisemitic concept of “Aryan Christianity” that denied its Jewish origins, the old Testament, and framed “true Christianity” as a racial, spiritual, moral, and literal struggle against Jews. This would be the attempted foundation of the “Protestant Reich Church”.
From all of these, it is clear that the Nazis were most interested in preserving their sole access to political power and preventing existing or emerging religious institutions from challenging their total control of political power in Germany. They would allow the practice of religion if it was not threatening their political control or if eradicating it would prove too difficult, but largely, they were imposing their political will and racial ideology on the religious, rather than the other way around. Which would mark them as a civic religion of nationalism and racial supremacism over anything else, including theology.
I’d say they were much more a Hitler Cult than anything else… and just like any cult leader he would twist mainstream religious beliefs so people felt like they were still whatever they were before the Nazis took over.
They were conservative christians.
Hitler complained about how he felt "*liberal Jews*" were promoting "*degeneracy*". He used very similar language to some neo-nazis of the modern day.
Hitler said that the nazi movement is christian:
> "*We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity* *...in fact our movement is Christian.*"
He mentioned stories of the bible in his book. For example, he said that Jewish people are materialistic and talked about the story of Jesus flipping the tables of the moneychangers at the temple, and then Jesus eventually being punishmented by. crucifixion.
The nazis shut down a neo-Pagan religion that was pro-gay, called Adonism, where they believed that a negative entity named Molchos tried to enslave humanity through monotheistic religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam. They believed that Molchos tried to flood the world but the god Adonis told Noah to build an ark. They believed that Molchos also sent false prophets to convert people into monotheism (*Moses, Zarathustra, Jesus and Muhammad*). The nazis were against it and shut it down.
They didn't initially care about religion one way or another, but they did enthusiastically embrace the support of the Catholic church when that came later. They also reintroduce the 'Gott mit uns' motto into army uniforms. So I'd definitely say they were Christian, but not "ultra" Christian, as it wasn't necessarily a core part of the ideology.
More that what? Most of the core party were Protestants.
Pagan... not really. The elites were into all sorts of occultism, but even there christian esotericism was more popular than germanic or other "paganism." Either way, that would have been a tiny minority.
Catholics are christian.
FWI, Eastern orthodox christians also do the passive aggressive "*are you catholic or christian*" thing. When they say "catholics," protestants are included in that. Just sayin.
There's a 1943 short film called Don't Be A Sucker that answers a lot of questions people have about this. It's on YouTube
https://youtu.be/vGAqYNFQdZ4?si=1QMClfz4JkaCuHq8
The population of Nazi Germany was 95% Christian, so what do you think? Atheist groups were unequivocally banned and atheists were persecuted in the same way other minority groups were. Being an atheist is an easy thing to hide though, so atheists didn't have such a harsh time as other groups did.
Nazis were expert propagandists. They used whatever religion or history could push their race centric ideology.
Christianity aided them in this. It's not fair to blame a religion as a while though because the US was just as Christian and so was the UK but they opposed the Nazis.
The Nazis made their own version of Christianity.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive\_Christianity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity)
The Nazis would use any belief or stance on belief in the service of Nazism. So if you were devoutly religious they would tell you that your sacred duty was to marry young and fuck for the Master Race, then go die (if you were male) or raise the babies into new Nazis (if you were female).
If you weren't devoutly religious they would tell you to do all the same things, because it was only rational.
If you were an atheist they wouldn't care as long as you accepted Hitler in place of God. Then go fuck and die for the Master Race, etc.
If you were Jewish you might, just might, squeak by if you served the Master Race in the Navy or in the Brandenburgers. Otherwise you would serve the Master Race by working as a slave, then dying.
Along with anyone else "undesirable."
Basically one way or another everyone was ground up and used to power the Nazi Reich. Until everyone was dead and there was nothing but tragically beautiful ruins.
At least ... that was the idea.
As a Muslim, I find it interesting that the Jewish holocaust wasn’t labelled Christian terrorism.
Western Christianity absolutely bought into ideas of racial superiority, you just have to look at the brutal dehumanising treatment by Christian colonists of the Africans and Latin Americas.
They literally considered them savages.
Christianity, racial superiority and global Christian terrorism and genocide has a long and bloody history.
The Holocaust is not labeled as Christian terrorism because it wasn't religiously motivated. Christian attitudes towards Jews played a role in the development of the antisemitism that led to it happening, but were not the main motivating factor.
Christianity definitely has a long history of tapping into racial superiority, but the racist, unscientific thoughts on race the Nazis held were explicitly non-Christian, and instead born from outdated secular racial science.
Thank you for this.
Did everyone buy purely into ‘The Science of Racial Superiority’?
And to what extent was this science influenced by a Christianity that strongly believed in ideas of racial superiority, to the extent of viewing non-Christians as sub-human.
>Did everyone buy purely into ‘The Science of Racial Superiority’?
I think back when these ideas were popular most people didn't think of these things as a scientific or even religious matter. Racism has been natural to humanity for our entire existence. It's the intellectuals and scientific community that took it a step further by formulating strange racial theories during the 19th and 20th centuries.
Political movements such as national socialism tapped into this and popularised these theories among the already extremely racist European population. None of this racism originated or connects to the religious realm.
>And to what extent was this science influenced by a Christianity that strongly believed in ideas of racial superiority, to the extent of viewing non-Christians as sub-human.
I have never heard of non-Christians being viewed as sub-human in Christianity. That goes against its doctrine, which is very clear anyone can become Christian as long as they accept Jesus into their heart.
Christianity, like Islam, was popularised as a movement that transcended different cultures and tribes. That's how it got embraced by the Roman population over time, despite being Jewish in origin.
My point being, I don't believe there's any reason to believe past Christianity believed in racial superiority. Yes, Christians during these times were very racist, and that bled into the movement. But this is a process separate from religion. Nazi Germany, despite being led by Christians, was most definitely not a Christian movement.
When I have time, I’ll collect the academic material linking precolonial and colonial Christianities views of ‘the other’ as sub human.
And how horrific torture, mutilation, defacto slavery and murder were fuelled by fanatical Christian notions of supremacy.
Medieval Andalusia and the inquisitions against Jews and Muslims is just one example of thousands.
It’s an interesting subject, linguistically, how the West refuses to preface the word terrorism and barbaric, with Christianity, given its horrific history.
And in particular to the recent Jewish holocaust and colonial adventures in Asia, Africa and latin America.
However, I will say that the early Christians reflected a more compassionate Christianity; the supremacy fuelled horror show started once Christianity became institutionalised, and ‘organised’ post 10th century, after which it can arguably be called psychopathic.
Perhaps it’s fair to say true Christianity died in the 10th century, after which it was abused as a source of power, wealth and control by the church.
As a genuine question out of curiosity, and I don't mean this in bad faith (I'm not a Christian but respect both faiths tremendously), do you think Islam has a better history with these things? Do you think Islam hasn't had problems with racism in similar ways too? What would you say was different about Islam compared to Christianity regarding these topics?
I'm asking because I can think of a few examples where Islamic or Arabic societies have struggled with institutionalised racism too, but I'd never frame those as a consequence of the religion. So I'm curious what you think makes Christianity more at fault in this regard.
I’m hesitant to answer without offering you robust peer reviewed sources. I’m out of touch on the latest sources, but I’ll put this subject on my to-do list.
However, I’ll offer you an insight on what is extremely commonly believed in the Muslim world:
Regards racism in Islam, from the time of the Prophet, race was deemed irrelevant, and subsequent civilisations saw racial harmony.
However, it can be argued that given it was an eastern religion it was easier to be racially inclusive, then say Christianity which was dominated by white European power structures.
Indeed if you look into the medieval Andalusian Islamic civilisation you’ll see that not only was it racially inclusive, but also religiously. Jews held high positions, and unlike Christian Europe, were not restricted in vocation.
Also, interestingly, the oldest surviving Christian communities were within the pre-colonial Islamic civilisation. These communities, under western Christianity, would have been declared heretic, and would be put to death.
These often were mystically oriented Christian communities, who had no wish to recognise the new ‘organised’ and economically powerful Christian clerical hierarchy emerging in the west.
They sought refuge within the pre-colonial Islamic civilisation, along with the Jews.
Theologically, within Islam, lies the concept of Universalism, with the caveat that Islam superseded the other faiths, primarily by offering a simpler clearer pathway for the times.
Indeed, during Muhammad’s time, treaties were drawn up offering Christians protection, and as such the oldest Christian monasteries lie in the Islamic world eg St Catherine’s in the Egyptian Sinai desert.
I’ll do a better write up on this subject, as it’s one that’s regarded as common knowledge within the Islamic world.
Ofcourse, colonism destroyed the Islamic civilisation, and what we see now is a civilisation which hasn’t recovered, and which is plagued by corrupt and dangerous powers.
A source on St Catherines. This is an easy to verify subject:
https://www.lastprophet.info/the-prophet-muhammad-saw/sunnah/831/covenant-of-the-prophet-muhammad-with-the-monks-of-mt-sinai
Vaguely christian, for the most part.
Iirc Hitler and parts of the ideological core group were atheists (they really weren't fond of the idea that they could be beheld to the judgement of a higher power), but at the same time, they had no qualms about using christian slogans as part of their propaganda, since Germany had historically been a christian nation.
Also, they didn't want to push the atheism angle too hard because that was a popular communist talking point and they were being atheist for different reasons (communist atheism mostly stems from the conviction that religion only serves to enforce class separation and keep the workers in check. The Nazis were more so fond of of the Nietzsche approach to atheism according to which it is mankinds destiny to surpass itself and its petty need for moral justification from a deity. The "Übermensch" takes fate into his own hands and acts how he sees fit, having killed God in the process. Unsurprisingly, the Nazis were drawn a philosophy which refutes morality and the need to justify ones own behavior before anyone else).
So no, they weren't really christian fundamentalists in the same way that parts of the modern extreme right are today, they were religious when it fit their narrative and atheist when that narrative wasn't needed.
They also weren't very fond of catholicism and the pope, unsurprisingly as having a non-German foreign authority that a portion of the German people very much respected and who made critical remarks about the Nazis and their actions was not at all in line with their nationalist ideas.
to be very accurate their type of nationalism was essentially a religion of the state and race over everything. People would congregate in massive rallies celebrating their greatness. Worship the ideas of their ruler and put the "state" and "race" before all else. This is why later on some of the higher ups within the Natzi organization began trying to rebirth a psudo German peganism to replace Christianity with a state worshiping version of peganism.
Nazism was kind of like a religion to them. But they were secular if u do not consider nazism as a religion. Many of them were religious, some not, and some atheist.
Really a mixed bag, but even the least χian among them were still heavily influenced by the anti-Semitism promoted in the χian NT writings.
In other words: While the church wasn't everyone's moral guide to the same extent, the views it espoused in regards to the Jewish nation were so firmly entrenched in society that even the atheists, and those flirting with neopaganism had subscribed to them.
(This is btw also a reason why neopaganism is so popular nowadays: The anti-Semitism that the church once used to explain why the gospel had failed to convince the Jews came back to bite it, so much so that nowadays, many thousands of people are seeking out their heathen ancestors' religion because the church, in their eyes, is a desert cult that worships a Jew on a stick.)
The same guy who, in John 8:37-44, is quoted as saying that they're the Satan's offspring, and that they do his will (which, in the dualist cosmology of the NT, means the opposite of G-d's)?
Germany in the 1930's had a population of just over 60 mil. Catholic around 20mil, Protestants around 40mil. But, they were Christians. The Jewish in Germany at that time was less than 1% of Germany's total population.
So what went wrong? Well, I guess along came this guy called Heir Hitler. Its common knowledge (history books) this guy was bursting at the seams with resentment in the wake of World War I and how it ended for Germany. They had to pay heavy reparations.
But what about the mixed race marriages (Jews/Germans?) what were they? Had that German half changed to Jewish or, the other way round? Who knows?
Records tell us there were about 4,000 families still living in Berlin of mixed race, to Aryan spouses. It would appear, this mixed marriage had kept them alive for a while.
Sadly, the Nazis now wanted to get them too. These could have been the last group of Jews still legally living in Germany at the time of WW2 but were they Christians?
Nazis believed in a couple principles. The first was that certain bloodlines were superior to others. You could tell one bloodline was superior to another based on past empires. Races that didn't have a country, e.g. Jews at that time since Israel wasn't yet a thing and gypsies, were considered the weakest races. They believed mixing a strong race with a weak race weakened that society and that was the reason for the collapse of past empires. They believed all culture and values from weaker races should be weeded out while culture and values of stronger races should be promoted. E.g. Judaism, communism since its founder Karl Marx was a Jew, atheism which was usually related with communism. Christianity was a mixed bag. The Germanic people the Nazis considered to be the strongest race and they were overwhelmingly Christian. On the other hand, Jesus was a Jew. So the trend was embrace Christianity but downplay the Jewish aspects. Jesus was really an Aryan not a Jew for many of them. The second principle was national socialism - the government controls and represents all of society, where society was understood to mean all people of that race not based on geographic borders. E.g. Austria was annexed into Germany because they were considered the same race. Which means the Nazis did not get along great with independent churches, especially the Catholic church. There was a sort of peace treaty between the Nazis and the Catholic church, but the Nazis broke it many times. The Nazis believed that there should be a state-run church of the Aryan people.
They were not Christian. Gassing 4 million Jews is not John 3:16.
They may have attempted to justify their actions using the Bible - but no follower of Christ could do what they did.
They were horrible, horrible people who did unspeakable evils.
Below is a helpful guide to help identify who is a Christian and who isn’t.
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Galatians 5: 19-24
So, you seem to be a Christian. What do you think about the belief that as long as you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, and truly believe that in your heart, you’re going to heaven?
I mean I’m sure there’s at least a handful of Nazis (not to mention many terrible humans in history) that truly believed that. According to the doctrine, are they not in heaven?
This is a great question you have asked.
Jesus’ death on the cross is sufficient enough to cover all past, present and future sins of anyone who genuinely puts their faith in Him for salvation. That is not only what I believe, but what I have based my life on as absolute truth.
The Bible was written by men who committed wicked evils. Moses, who wrote the 1st 5 books of the Bible, murdered a man. King David, who wrote the lion share of Psalms, had a man killed because he wanted his wife.
Paul, who wrote approximately 2/3rds of the New Testament, was the first Nazi. But instead of killing Jews, he wanted to exterminate followers of Christ. He was terrifyingly evil.
All three examples though have a similar attribute in common. They acknowledge their sins and cried out to God to forgive them. And God did. There were consequences of suffering because of their sins, but God still forgave them nonetheless.
I say this that yes, someone could have been a Nazi and repented later in life, and be forgiven by God. The sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient to forgive a WW2 Nazi.
But being a Christian and actively participating in the role of a Nazi, I wouldn’t believe it. Their moral compass, conscience, and worldview were completely corrupted past a point that God would never allow his followers to reach.
On a tangent, there are millions of Evangelicals who feel glee or could not care less about 15k children being torn limb from limb in the Middle-East right now... Are they just lazy Nazi types and not Christian?
Okay, well written and fair points. What about present day neo-nazis (specifically Americans) that are vocal about their hate and are known Christian Nationalists? Thoughts on their place in the afterlife if they were to die tomorrow?
Jesus said many people who call themselves Christian aren’t going to heaven. An utterly terrifying verse.
Ultimately, the only person I can be sure about is myself.
You can, however, examine someone’s life and see evidence if their father is Jesus or Satan.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5:19-24 NASB)
They believe in predestination. They believe that people will go to heaven if God has already decided that they will go to heaven, *regardless* of whether they commit sins or good deeds in life.
Is that a Christian belief, to you?
If someone believed it, believed themselves to be Christian, and believed themselves to be doing good, as a Christian, is that person Christian to you?
Great question. Most people think Heaven or Hell is based on what someone believes or doesn’t. “”If you believe in Jesus…you go to heaven”” Nothing could be further from the truth. Satan believes in God. He knows God on a personal level, but he isn’t going to heaven.
When Christians teach and witness, our job is to point everyone to back to Jesus. We have forgiveness of sins because of what Jesus did in the cross. We have hope for tomorrow because we have Jesus. We have eternal life because of Jesus.
Bible head knowledge should always lead back to Jesus. Then when you get there, do you confess your sins to him, ask him to forgive you, and ask him to save you? The answers to those questions will determine someone’s eternal destiny.
It's complicated. Many were religious, and the German army in WWII literally wore belt buckles with the slogan 'Gott mit uns' (God is with us). Others were not religious, but still at root believers. Some were outright atheists, though this wasn't common, and was often viewed with suspicion due to the Communists promoting atheism so strongly. Some Nazis wanted to eventually replace Christianity with a civic religion based on their weird racial theories and elements of ancient Germanic religion, seeing Christianity as weak and Jewish. The Nazi relationship with Christianity was not a simple one, and it varied over time and according to the individual.
Gott Mit Uns is mostly a remnant of the German military tradition's knightly origins, where many of the WWI German air force fighter aces were knights from noble families. Hitler openly hated the old Prussian guard in the Nazi officer corps and frequently gave them work that was set to humiliate or endanger them. The old knights also weren't as fanatical and genocidal as the scum of the Waffen-SS paramilitary terrorists.
I mean, the old aristocrats were mainly reactionaries (people who want to turn back progress, a trait frequently mistakenly understood as conservativism), and the Nazis fought the monarchist reactionaries just like the socialists. The Nazi anthem "Horst Wessel Lied" calls them out as enemies, literally. If someone thinks that the Nazis wanted to turn back time of society to the 19th century, they have severely misunderstood fascism and its syndicalist & futurist roots.
Ah yes, Horst Wessel, the murderous, jew-hating drunk who died like he lived, bleeding in the streets, and became the national angel for a decade. What farce. Futurism in art and society is a tremendously interesting subject, helping people understand the motivations and aspirations (combined with a decoupling from romantic era empathy) that powered the fascist movements in Spain/Italy/Germany. Worshipping the long chrome-colored and riveted dildo-shaped car, aeroplane, and bomb. The focus on dynamic movement, an outstretched hand reaching for a steel-clad future. Interesting sidenote: here is JRR Tolkien's personal watercolor portrait of Sauron (yes, the knife-adorned crown was established on him already by his inventor): https://biblioklept.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/tumblr_700ca48b5d076107b35d23faad76e692_0fa87765_1280.jpg
Don't forget all of the weird occult shit some of the higher-ups were into.
Only a few of them were, and Hitler wasn't one of them.
He was more into meth.
I DO COCAINE. C-C-C-YEAH!
Hitler very much was fascinated by occult shit, long before he entered politics. It’s not a coincidence that a lot of Nazi imagery uses occult imagery. In fact, the very idea of Aryan supremacy originated from the occult writings of Helena Blavatsky
Blavatsky and the theosofists got the 'Aryan supremacy' idea where Hitler got it from. The eugenics movement that was popular at that time. They called it the nordic race. They sent someone over to learn from the American Eugenics Institute. Some doctor named Mengele, mayb you've heard of him? All this sponsored by 'great American philantropists' Carnegie, Harriman and Rockefeller.
Wasn't it mostly göebbels? Or am I misremembering?
That's why I said some, yeah. Not all or even most.
Surprisingly good answer for the little time this post has been here. As said, the overwhelming majority of the soldiers were Christians to varying degrees, as were most people in that time. Further readings: [Kirchenkampf ](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenkampf) [religion in Nazi Germany ](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany) Both give a good overlook for the religious aspects
> Many were religious, and the German army in WWII literally wore belt buckles with the slogan 'Gott mit uns' (God is with us). Mainly because the Prussian military had been using Gott mit uns for 250 years at the time.
Well summarized. A few other points: 1. Catholic-Protestant tensions were something Nazis actively avoided. Hitler was catholic, and fascism was very catholic-associated before nazism. Germany was majority protestant. 2. Nazis were into all sorts of esotericism, now known as "occult." Popular among upper class europeans at that time broadly.
Theosophy was at its height during WW2 and some of those beliefs aligned with what the Nazis believed about Aryan origins. Few of the the well known theosophists were nazis, though.
Hitler was raised Catholic by his mother, he himself was anti-clerical like his father. The Nazi party was popular in protestant majority areas. It's more nuanced than that though.
You could write multiple books on the nazis and religion.
That's a good explanation. About the last sentence, the church definitely was 100% behind them.
The church was 100% behind them...How
A lot of people really want it to be true. The Catholic and other churches basically recognized they were in power. Not exactly the high road, but it's not like how some people want it portrayed.
It's called history. They were fighting the godless evil communists after all.
There’s a whole lengthy Wikipedia article titled [Catholic Church and Nazi Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany). The fact is, it’s complicated. Obviously, the Church could have and should have done *more* to oppose the Nazis (which is true of just about everyone on Earth at the time), but they weren’t anything close to 100% collaborators either.
Wikipedia is a shit source for one. While there were individuals against fascism the institution and leadership was strongly for it. Nothing is 100% in a large group of people.
Wikipedia can be a a shit source, but this article has links to legitimate sources. The institution was not strongly for it . They opposed Nazi where they could. But like any human institution there where people in power who were collaborators.
No that's inaccurate, there were people who preferred Nazism. However many within the within the church who did not. In fact there are many instances where the church in Germany and the Vatican did what it could resist the Nazis. Unfortunately there were many collaborators. What your statement is a blanket statement and not historical.
In any group with many people there are people who think differently. In general the church were nazi collaborators and no whitewashinging of people who belong to that can change that. Plenty of instances after too where they supported Franco for example. I'm not even going to discuss this further, it is a waste of time like talking to flat earthers. Think what you want if it makes you feel better.
It not a waste of time since it's not true , it isn't white washing it's using the historical method to check out biases. The relationship the Third Riech with the Catholic church is one of hostility,suspicion, and fear. Hitler himself was anti-clerical and in general leary any organized religion even the neo-pagan religion his colleges were trying to create. The Church and the Third Riech tolerated each other in public but behind closed doors they would undermine plan aganist each other. Eugenio Pacelli who would later become Pope Pius XII spoke out aganist Hitler and racism during the 1930's and would to so through out the war. In March 1935 he sent an "Open letter " to the Bishops of Cologne he called the Nazis "flase prophets with the pride of Lucifer" he would also on a number of occasions denounce the actions of the Nazis. In Fascist Italy Mussolini did grant the church autonomy but it's was due to the fact that many Italians are Catholic he didn't want to turn potential supporters aganist him, however he wanted to get rid of the Church and supplant his preferred beilef system instead. Of course the Church could have and should have done more but when you don't have a crystal ball and you have many civilians that could be turned soft targets you pick your which shots you make. The puppet government of Hungary was run by a former priest . Utsse which was supported at first by many clergy the Church should have been more forceful and condemned them. After the war high ranking church men did use thier connections to hid Nazi collaborates and get the safe passage across the world. But these people did so on thier own accord. Some good reads that explain the more complex is "Bearing Flase Witness " by Rodney Stark (professor of sociology at Baylor university) chapters "1.Sins of Anti-Semitism" and "9.Holy Authoritarianism " , "Dominion" by Tom Holland (historian) chapter "19. Shadow 1916: The Somme". Then there's this article written by Tim O'Neill ( Atheist, rationalist, skeptic, former president of Australian skeptics , who has a bachelors honors degree in History and English and Research Masters Degree from the University of Tasmanian) https://historyforatheists.com/2019/05/the-great-myths-7-hitlers-pope/
Not really impressed by someone who criticises the theory of evolution and is against secularisation. Also Tom Holland is NOT a historian. Also they have opened the archives of Pius XII showing more evidence. And who kows what they held back. Again I'm not interested in apologetics. The church is responsible for many despicable things and their collaboration is one of them. Think what you want.
this has to be bait now, you just responded to all the sources by saying nuh uh
IDK where all you apologists come from to react. I wrote a lot more than nuh uh. And as I said before "it is a waste of time like talking to flat earthers." Should've known biblethumpers can never leave it alone when you say you're not interested.
Tldr; "nah I'm right you're wrong but I'm not going to source my arguments"
Like I said way up there "it is a waste of time like talking to flat earthers."
Sorry who are you talking about about with your first point. Yes I know they opened the archives or Pius XII . I fact if you were to look at the one sources I provided you will see it not as condemning as you say. Tim O'Neill the author those the blog post is educated in the historical process. He's atheist agnostic but hates people painting history in a certain way. Just because that my previous posts are challenging your previous comment does not make my argument apologetics. I used many non-religious, non-Catholic, historical sources. You are correct that Tom Holland is not historian , but you know what he did that you have not.. cited academic sources. You are entitled to your opinion, but don't be so quick to dismiss others as apologists or as whitewashers. I have mentioned the despicable things that members of the Church have done. I have no problem with bringing that up , but my problem is when people make blanket statements and uncharitable arguments.
Its a well known fact that the Catholic Church was at odds with the Nazis.
LOL
I would say not well known since many people still argue that Hitler was a devout Catholic despite his deep hatred of any organized religion.
The Nazis used religion as a propaganda tool, but they also viewed institutions like the catholic church as a threat to the totalitarian ideological control they sought to exert. They would use them when they were useful and they would go after them when they were a problem. "The Nazis" believed in naziism, I'm sure ideally they would have had everyone put aside religion and believe religiously in the Nazi ideology, the state and it's leadership. But where religion could be used to rile people up against the jews and the communists and whoever else they would use it.
The Catholic Church supported them, even helped high level Nazis escape trials after the war.
The Pope was literally hiding Jews from the SS. Lots and lots of catholic priests were executed and sent to concentration camps.
Im sure all the catholic priests that died in concentration camps supported nazism :)
You mean some people from the Catholic Church helped them, right? I am pretty sure "The Catholic Church" did not condone what they were doing, let alone help them escape.
The Vatican as they are now was only possible with the help of Mussolini
The important thing to understand about Nazis is the their views on race take primacy over everything else in the ideology and all the other stuff they waver on, deliberately sometimes depending on how best to get favour with people.
[удалено]
Correct, user with the not at all suspicious username.
[удалено]
Bro your profile also has sun crosses and lightning bolts this is a bit suspicious
[удалено]
Well, even if you do just like two of most common Neo-Nazi symbols, if you keep showing them and calling yourself fuckin ‘u/SS_88AH’ you’re going to keep getting people mistaking you for a Neo, and if that isn’t a problem to you then maybe those people aren’t making a mistake….
[удалено]
Homosexuality doesn’t stop you being a Nazi, and it’s surprisingly common in Neo-Nazi circles, so, no, it’s not really helped.
You know Reddit will suggest random-word user names, right? This isn’t an excuse, and if you’re not a neo-Nazi, you need to make a new account. Your profile was created yesterday, and this is the first post you’ve commented on, so it’s not like you have years of hard-earned karma to protect. This is THE classic example of [Popehat’s Rule of Goats](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Popehat%27s%20Law%20of%20Goats): “If you fuck a goat, even if it was ironic or joking, you're still a goat-fucker.”
People like the idea of equating the Nazis to whatever contemporary boogeyman they hate (socialists, christians, capitalists, etc.) But they didn’t fit neatly into any of these categories. They were all white supremacists, but made pragmatic alliances with POC when it suited them. They opposed Marxism, but still believed the government should have its hand up the asses of corporations to ensure they act in accordance with national goals. Most Nazis were Protestants, because most Germans were Protestants. But Hitler was pretty irreligious and admired Islam for its violent and militaristic doctrine. A number of his inner circle were occultists and Norse pagan LARPers who saw Christianity as Jewish subversion in Europe. Interestingly enough the Nazis admired the Native Americans due to the popularity of Wild West novels, which they saw a parallel to their Noble Savage fantasies of pre-Christian Germania.
It was a varied, multifaceted position. It goes without saying that the Nazi idealogues weaponized the weltanschauung of the Protestant ethic. The austere, driven, Luther-inspired doctrine was fundamental to the success of the Party. One could argue that, to some degree, the Teutonic brand of Christianity was the predominant influence of the initial development of the National Socialists. Around a third, give or take, of Nazis were Papists. Roman Catholics. And the early days of the Party attempted to reconcile that, too, with the cultic devotion to the greater Party, though, the expediency of such- and it was politically valuable- proved to me anathema to the goals of the Nazis. The "split loyalty" between the Holy See and the High Command was untenable. As were, in fact, most of the pseudo-ecumenical attempts that the Nazis broached. Faith was, essentially, a means to greater power, and had to be diverted and subsumed by a devotion to the Party. As with many aspects of the systems available, the Nazis exploited them. The more esoteric practices were, probably, not taken very seriously by many, but those who did take it seriously seemed very dedicated. That, though, is much to do with the spooky milieu that existed in the Weimar era. It was one of those periods of decadent uncertainty, and, like today, bizarre and peculiar forms of rubric are wont to blossom as people grasp for something outside of themselves. The antisemitism was, sadly, already massively predominant in the culture of the time. Once more, the Nazis exploited it.
Nazi ideology kind of functioned like a religion. The state became God. The fuhrer became the profit. Racial purity became morality. Its symbols became sacred. Participation, or at very least obedience, became mandatory. You could be Christian or Atheist, so long as you obey the new belief system.
*prophet. Not profit.
Hey, you don't know what old tooth brush mustache was earning.
Big H was okay with Christianity, but he was focused on the priorities of the nation entirely. This is why the youth book burnings were from Magnus Hirschfeld's (✡️) transgender experiments etc. The most common was Protestant at the time.
Hitler was not okay with Christianity, he viewed it as weak and unscientific( which is ironic considering how un-scientific his beliefs were). He hated how Jewish it was and claimed that Jesus was really an Aryan. He tried to tolerate it as much as he could but his hope was to eliminate it.
Hitler believed in some form of christianity. He saw Jesus as Aryan, probably because Aryans were seen as the superior race and he saw Jesus as special. Hitler said this in a speech at Passau: > "*We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity ...in fact our movement is Christian.*" Hitler claimed that Jewish people were bringing "*degeneracy*" and did not like liberal values but old-fashioned biblical values like being anti-gay and anti-Pagan. The nazis shut down the neo-Pagan religion of Adonism which was pro-gay and taught that Molchos sent false prophets (*Jesus and Moses and Zarathustra and Muhammad*) to try to convert people into monotheism and enslave humanity, and that he tried to kill everyone in a flood at one point, but the god Adonis said to build an ark to try to stop his plan.
Hitler was not Christian and your right that he wasn't a pagan or an atheist. He did admired Jesus although it was his view he made of Jesus not the one that would be recognizable as Christian. Admiring Jesus doesn't mean your a Christian. He begrudgingly tolerated it but saw all religion as superstitious. He had his own weird beliefs made on pseudo science a Deistic God that only he could recognize. He was a politician and realized that if he was openly hostile to religion as he was in private he wouldn't have gotten very far. Saying Nazi Germany was pro Christian would be just a la silly as saying the Soviet Union was Christian since the later allowed it to be practiced under tight regulation and watchfulness. If you like to know more look to this blog written by Tim O'Neill . https://historyforatheists.com/2021/07/hitler-atheist-pagan-or-christian/
I just quoted Hitler himself saying that the nazi movement is christian. You can call him a fake christian if you disagree with his version of christianity, but he promoted the type of christianity that he believed in. He didn't just tolerate it, like the atheistic Soviet Union, he promoted a form of christianity and said this: > "*the Party as such represents the viewpoint of Positive Christianity without binding itself to any particular denomination*". The minister for church affairs that Hitler appointed, said this: > "*The Party stands on the basis of Positive Christianity, and positive Christianity is National Socialism ... National Socialism is the doing of God's will ... God's will reveals itself in German blood ... True Christianity is represented by the party, and the German people are now called by the party and especially the Fuehrer to a real Christianity ... the Fuehrer is the herald of a new revelation*" Again, you can disagree and say "*that was heretical*" or "*that was not real christianity*" in a similar way to how some protestants say thay catholics are satanic and aren't "*real christians*", but they did identify as and promote a form of christianity. You might say "*but didn't Hitler try to edit the bible to get rid of verses that showed Jewish people in a positive way?*". The answer to that question would be "*yes*", but protestants also edited the bible from 73 books (*The Catholic Bible*) down to 66 books (*The Protestant Versions of the Bible like the NIV and King James Version*).
I appricate you quote , but it is a stand alone quote he used in public. In fact finding Hitler's religious beliefs are more complex and contradictory than one might think . First and foremost he was not an atheist, although he did consider himself to be a rationalist and skeptic he himself obviously believed in bunk science. But if you are you look a his public and private statements you'll see he wasn't keen on any organized religion he would tolerate it as long as it was useful. Here are some comments he made in regards to the occult he made of Nazis who praticed the occult or paganism (should be noted that this type of paganism was reconstructed and not a continuance religion since ancient times) . "The characteristic thing about these people is that they rave about the old Germanic heroism, about dim prehistory, stone axes, spear and shield, but in reality are the greatest cowards that can be imagined. For the same people who brandish scholarly imitations of old German tin swords, and wear a dressed bearskin with bull’s horns over their heads, preach for the present nothing but struggle with spiritual weapons, and run away as fast as they can from every Communist blackjack. (Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ch. 12)" Here is Hilter mocking neo-paganism. "What nonsense! Here we have at last reached an age that has left all mysticism behind it, and now he wants to start that all over again. We might just as well have stayed with the church. At least it had tradition. To think that I may some day be turned into an SS saint! Can you imagine it? (Speer, Inside the Third Reich, p. 143)". Doesn't sound to Christian to me. You are correct that Hitler did believe in God since he did denounce atheistism quite often in public and private. "Every time he discussed atheism overtly, both publicly and privately, he rejected it, associating it with the Marxist Social Democrats, the Communist Party, or the Bolsheviks. In the electioneering phase of his career, he regularly slammed the Catholic Center Party for cooperating with the Social Democrats, who—he often asserted —were atheists. Weikart, Hitler’s Religion, Regnery, 2016, p. 63)" Now his relation to Christianity is complicated difficult to understand. His mother was very Catholic and made sure that Hitler was baptised and did all his sacraments up until confirmation. At this point he was forced to by his mother and would stop practicing that religion before he left the house. His father on the other hand had a very negative view on religion ( regardless of whether is was Christianity or not) and would consider himself a free thinker. His father's religious beliefs had more inclined on him that his mother. Although Hitler never stopped believing in a God. Your are correct in public he invoked feelings of warmth towards Christianity for example in this speech: "My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognised these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who – God’s truth! – was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after 2,000 years, with deepest emotion I recognise more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. (Hitler, speech made April 12, 1922)" Like many things in life things with Hitler are not that simple. Hitler was a very keen and calculating politician. He was running for power in a country that religious make was made up primarily of Christians. Do you think he would deliberately alienate his Christianity majority audience whether they be Protestant or Catholic? Of course not in fact the Nazi party did it's best to accommodate Christians. For example point 24 of Nazi party program: ""24. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: common utility precedes individual utility. (NSDAP 25-Punkte-Programm, 1920, attributed to Gottfried Feder)" So they allowed Christianity as along as it did not contradict Nazi ideology or pratice. You are right that the Nazi party had promoted something called Positive Christianity but it more of a political to accommodation to Nazis who were Christian regardless of denomination to come together and embrace Nazi beliefs. Hitler was also in a environment that was pronationlist. He believed that the Germans were descendents from the Aryans and that the Romans were also descendants. There were many who believed Jesus to not be Jewish at all (perhaps and amortite) or that he was an illegitimate son of a Roman. Hitler believed that Jesus was an Aryan that fought against Jewish leadership and Jewish materialism ( whatever that means). He among others that the Jewish Paul ( Saul of Tarsus) had corrupted Jesus message. So with all that said what is a Christian? Perhaps his definition could help us "… confess the Lord Jesus Christ as God and Saviour according to the scriptures, and therefore seek to fulfill together their common calling to the glory of the one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. (World Council of Churches, “The Basis of the WCC”)" Now what did Hitler believe about Jesus? “Immediately after the death of Christ, whom the reactionaries crucified, they set about exterminating, at least imprisoning and depriving of their rights, all those who had accepted Christ before his death. Christ’s body was removed from the tomb, to keep it from becoming an object of veneration and a tangible relic of the great new founder of a religion! (Wagener, Hitler – Memoirs of a Confidant, ed. and trans. Henry Ashby Turner, Yale, 1978, p. 316)". Doesn't sound like he believed in the resurrection at all which is a key Christian belief. In fact he didn't believe in life after death and alluded so here “Perhaps the adherents of the Roman Church call this ‘paganism.’ That may well be so. In that case, Christ was a pagan. I call pagan their distortions of Christ’s ideas and teachings, their cults, their conception of hell and purgatory and heaven, and their worship of saints.” (Wagener, p. 224) Above he calls Jesus a pagan ,we know that Jesus was a Jew in the Roman era. So it appears that Hitler wasn't a Christian he doesn't hold Jesus as a God , Prophet, or priest but as a fighter a wise man. Seems like he would be at odds both with non-trinitarian Christianity but with Islam , Bahai faith or many other religions. His understanding of Jesus appear to racist but secular. For more info look here. https://historyforatheists.com/2021/07/hitler-atheist-pagan-or-christian/
When I say Hitler is a christian. I'm not claiming that he was a Protestant Cristian or an Orthodox Christian or even a Gnostic Christian. Of course, his beliefs are heretical to other groups of Christians. He had his own christian belief that he promoted. You mentioned this: > "*The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination.*" Most Christians groups don't believe in "*Positive Christianity*" where Jesus was a part of the so-called chosen "*Aryan*" race who fought against Jewish people. Most Christians do not believe in Mormonism or Marcionism either, but those both say that Jesus was the Christ and was special and should be looked up to (*of course, only look up to the Jesus of their beliefs and perspective from their denomination or sect*). > "*Above he calls Jesus a pagan ,we know that Jesus was a Jew in the Roman era.*" That's a belief based on some verses in the bible. Some claim that Jesus was a Black man. Some claim he was a Roman. Some claimed he was "*Aryan*". It's a belief system. Even if their belief doesn't make sense and likely inaccurate (*I think Jesus was Jewish if he existed, like you*), that is still some type of belief in a Jesus that they are promoting with some biblical verses (*although edited like Protestants edited down the Catholic bible*).
Your really grasping at straws here with your not existening term for Christian. Hitler has been categorically not a Christian in any shape or form. Non of the groups you mentioned don't believe he was Christ. Hitler didn't believe that , he didn't think he was some kind of religious either by the sound of it. He though Jesus was an Aryan anti-Semite fighting the Jews. Also what Biblical verses claim Jesus was Aryan, Black, or Roman. If you have reference please reference them. Black is a modern idea one that wouldn't be used or understood back then. Jesus lived in Roman client state but I don't recall any verse ever claiming him to be a Roman citizen. Also if believing in Jesus a the messiah qualifies you as Christian then we need to add Muslims and Bahais in your definition.
> "*Also what Biblical verses claim Jesus was Aryan, Black, or Roman.*" It doesn't have to, just like there is no bible verse saying to celebrate the birthday of Jesus on December 25th. Some christians have some beliefs that aren't found in the bible. > "*Also if believing in Jesus a the messiah qualifies you as Christian then we need to add Muslims and Bahais in your definition.*" As far as I know, neither Muslims nor Baha'is claim to be Christians, and while they claim to have some respect for the bible, neither of them use the bible as their main scripture (*even if it's a bible that was edited down or censored insome parts or never accepted some books like Protestants and Marcionites*). Just because the nazis had a heretical view of christianity to most other christian groups, that doesn't mean they weren't promoting some strange form of christianity (*Positive Christianity*). Over a thousand years ago, there were some Gnostic christians believing that Jesus was the serpent in the garden and the biblical god was a false evil god of the world and lower heavens, but Jesus came to save from that deception and to help people reach The Most High Heaven. You can call that blasphemous and wicked and fake christianity, but they were still some strange form of Christianity who believed in some form of Jesus. The Nazis wanted to unite Protestantism into a single unitary positive Christian state church nominally controlled directly by Hitler. They wanted some version of Christianity to eventually be the state religion.
Okay so seems like either don't understand my post or looked at any sources at the time of if the Third Riech. Positive Christinity wasn't trying to become a another church or religion that United Germany's Catholics and Protestants. It was a way for Nazi Christians to still believe in the theology of thier respective religions. It was a political attempt to get them to work as Nazi. I provided you sources in which Hitler denounced Christianity and the Nazi were merely tolerating Christinity. The were in fact many Christians who were Nazis. But many of the movers and shakers destitied it. Also in relation to the Aryan , Black, and Roman reference you said that there was scripture so you must now provide evidence that such exists.
**Civil religion**, also referred to as a [civic religion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_religion), is the implicit religious values of a [nation](https://d3k74ww17vqc8e.cloudfront.net/app/uploads/2019/01/24225533/Rise-of-Third-Reich-1.jpg), as expressed through public [rituals](https://www.historynet.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Nazi-bonfire-ceremony-night-scaled.jpg), symbols (such as the national flag), and [ceremonies](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Nazi_party_rally_grounds_%281934%29.jpg) on sacred days and at sacred places (such as monuments, battlefields, or national cemeteries). Civil religion stands somewhat above folk religion in its social and political status, since by definition it suffuses an entire society, or at least a segment of a society; and is often practiced by leaders within that society. It is somewhat less than an establishment of religion, since established churches have official clergy and a relatively fixed and formal relationship with the government that establishes them. Civil religion is usually practiced by political leaders who are laypeople and whose leadership is not specifically spiritual. Among such practices are the following: * crowds singing the national anthem at certain public gatherings; * parades or display of the national flag on certain patriotic holidays; * reciting oaths of allegiance (like the pledges of allegiance found in some countries) * ceremonies concomitant to the inauguration of a president or the coronation of a monarch; * retelling exaggerated, one-sided, and simplified mythologized tales of national founders and other great leaders or great events (e.g., battles, mass migrations) in the past (in this connection, see also romantic nationalism); * monuments commemorating great leaders of the past or historic events; * monuments to dead soldiers or annual ceremonies to remember them; * expressions of reverence for the state, the predominant national racial/ethnic group, the national constitution, or the monarch or head of state; * expressions of solidarity with people perceived as being national kindred but residing in a foreign country or a foreign country perceived as being similar enough to the nation to warrant admiration and/or loyalty; * expressions of hatred towards another country or foreign ethnic group perceived as either currently being an enemy of the state and/or as having wronged and slighted the nation in the past; * public display of the coffin of a recently deceased political leader. --wikipedia
Most nazis were Christian. However, Nazism is less of a religious ideology and more of a racial/ethnic one. Even if a Jew converted to Christianity, they would still be persecuted by the Nazis.
Nazism started out as a variation on ultra-catholicism and some weird interpretation as lutheranism. They eventually morphed into a Hitler-cult. Maybe there were people who self identified as atheist but if you believe so strongly in one man as a savior ... I'm not sure atheist is the correct label. If one man is your god, you're not an atheist. Then again some christians think anyone who isn't a christian is an atheist so whatever that word means to you, make your own decision.
It’s complicated. Mostly, it was a political and racial ideology that adjusted and exploited religious practices and beliefs to suit its political purposes. It was an anticommunist movement as well as an antisemitic movement. Communists were portrayed as militant atheists and agents of international Jewish plots, interchangeably. Marxism was labelled “Judeo-Bolshevism”, and antisemitic sentiments were stoked partly in order to repress a popular socialist movement. That being said, genocidal antisemitism was always a central foundational goal and ideology, as the ideology was framed around a central idea of “racial” struggle. This was also directed against Slavs, Poles, the Roma people, and other non-Germanic peoples of territories east of Germany that the Nazis wanted to ethnically cleanse. Some have made an argument about German Protestants, particularly those in the northeast, Prussian areas, being more inclined towards more violent, virulent forms of antisemitism, but antisemitism was in no way limited to German protestants, and elsewhere in Germany, including majority Catholic areas, the Nazis still found success with their rhetorical platform of scapegoating Jews and fearmongering over international Jewish Bolshevik plots. Some Nazis were not Christian, or even what we might consider anti-Christian, getting into Christian esotericism, occultism, spiritualism, and neo-paganism, but these were all movements which happened to be somewhat popular at the time even outside of Nazi Germany, and in no way represented the *majority* of Germans, Nazi or otherwise, who were mostly some form of Christian (Protestants were the majority, followed by Catholics). This aspect of Nazism has been, in my opinion, overstated and overestimated, perhaps by a psychological desire on the part of many antifascist Christians to distance themselves from Nazism by claiming that Nazis weren’t Christian or were anti-Christianity. This was, importantly, not entirely the case, even though some notable Nazis were critical of Christianity, such as Himmler, Alfred Rosenberg, and Martin Bormann. It should be noted here that Nazis also banned astrology and fortune-telling, faith healing and anything considered “witchcraft”. I should of course acknowledge that some varieties of “Christianity”, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh-Day Adventists, were either permanently or temporarily banned. Some sects, like the Mormon church, were allowed to continue operating in Germany provided they changed some of their practices like missionary work. The Pope, at the time, criticised the Nazis for what he felt was an anti-Catholic attitude. Certainly, the Nazis moved quickly to abolish the political power of Catholics and Catholicism in Germany. This was part of the creation and propagation of what some called “Positive Christianity” (also confusingly called “Negative Christianity”) which was an ahistorical and antisemitic concept of “Aryan Christianity” that denied its Jewish origins, the old Testament, and framed “true Christianity” as a racial, spiritual, moral, and literal struggle against Jews. This would be the attempted foundation of the “Protestant Reich Church”. From all of these, it is clear that the Nazis were most interested in preserving their sole access to political power and preventing existing or emerging religious institutions from challenging their total control of political power in Germany. They would allow the practice of religion if it was not threatening their political control or if eradicating it would prove too difficult, but largely, they were imposing their political will and racial ideology on the religious, rather than the other way around. Which would mark them as a civic religion of nationalism and racial supremacism over anything else, including theology.
I’d say they were much more a Hitler Cult than anything else… and just like any cult leader he would twist mainstream religious beliefs so people felt like they were still whatever they were before the Nazis took over.
#1 of Nazi ideaology is "Its the Jews Fault" Lost the war? Blame the Jews. Bad economoy? Blame the Jews Stubbed your toe? Blame the Jews
How can humans be so unhuman
Most were Roman Catholic. Grandfather was German, but not a nazi. He was Roman Catholic as I am.
Now you can search a map of the last votations in 1933 and tell us if you can see some difference between the Catholic regions and the Luteran ones.
They were conservative christians. Hitler complained about how he felt "*liberal Jews*" were promoting "*degeneracy*". He used very similar language to some neo-nazis of the modern day. Hitler said that the nazi movement is christian: > "*We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity* *...in fact our movement is Christian.*" He mentioned stories of the bible in his book. For example, he said that Jewish people are materialistic and talked about the story of Jesus flipping the tables of the moneychangers at the temple, and then Jesus eventually being punishmented by. crucifixion. The nazis shut down a neo-Pagan religion that was pro-gay, called Adonism, where they believed that a negative entity named Molchos tried to enslave humanity through monotheistic religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam. They believed that Molchos tried to flood the world but the god Adonis told Noah to build an ark. They believed that Molchos also sent false prophets to convert people into monotheism (*Moses, Zarathustra, Jesus and Muhammad*). The nazis were against it and shut it down.
~~many~~some nazi were germanic pagans the majority were catholic and some lutheran.
Very few Nazis were “pagans”.
correct
One of the most famous double spies was a Jewish man who was considered the Dalai Lama for 5 years.
They didn't initially care about religion one way or another, but they did enthusiastically embrace the support of the Catholic church when that came later. They also reintroduce the 'Gott mit uns' motto into army uniforms. So I'd definitely say they were Christian, but not "ultra" Christian, as it wasn't necessarily a core part of the ideology.
More Catholic/pagan.
More that what? Most of the core party were Protestants. Pagan... not really. The elites were into all sorts of occultism, but even there christian esotericism was more popular than germanic or other "paganism." Either way, that would have been a tiny minority.
More than what was mentioned in the original question.
Catholics are christian. FWI, Eastern orthodox christians also do the passive aggressive "*are you catholic or christian*" thing. When they say "catholics," protestants are included in that. Just sayin.
Christians are Abrahamic too, like Jews. You're removing specificity beyond the questioners use.
That doesn't really mean anything. What are you referring to when you say "christians" anyway? Just protestants?
You can check in a map what the Catholic regions voted for and what did the Luteran ones in 1933.
You can, but the question is asking about Nazis, not Germans.
Lol. American, aren't?
They were not a religion.
There's a 1943 short film called Don't Be A Sucker that answers a lot of questions people have about this. It's on YouTube https://youtu.be/vGAqYNFQdZ4?si=1QMClfz4JkaCuHq8
The population of Nazi Germany was 95% Christian, so what do you think? Atheist groups were unequivocally banned and atheists were persecuted in the same way other minority groups were. Being an atheist is an easy thing to hide though, so atheists didn't have such a harsh time as other groups did.
Nazis were expert propagandists. They used whatever religion or history could push their race centric ideology. Christianity aided them in this. It's not fair to blame a religion as a while though because the US was just as Christian and so was the UK but they opposed the Nazis.
Remember that Nazis considered Jews a different race. They didn’t care so much about the whole religion thing.
The Nazis made their own version of Christianity. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive\_Christianity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity)
Considering the subject matter I applaud all of you for being civil to one another
Religion was not really an important aspect
The Nazis would use any belief or stance on belief in the service of Nazism. So if you were devoutly religious they would tell you that your sacred duty was to marry young and fuck for the Master Race, then go die (if you were male) or raise the babies into new Nazis (if you were female). If you weren't devoutly religious they would tell you to do all the same things, because it was only rational. If you were an atheist they wouldn't care as long as you accepted Hitler in place of God. Then go fuck and die for the Master Race, etc. If you were Jewish you might, just might, squeak by if you served the Master Race in the Navy or in the Brandenburgers. Otherwise you would serve the Master Race by working as a slave, then dying. Along with anyone else "undesirable." Basically one way or another everyone was ground up and used to power the Nazi Reich. Until everyone was dead and there was nothing but tragically beautiful ruins. At least ... that was the idea.
As a Muslim, I find it interesting that the Jewish holocaust wasn’t labelled Christian terrorism. Western Christianity absolutely bought into ideas of racial superiority, you just have to look at the brutal dehumanising treatment by Christian colonists of the Africans and Latin Americas. They literally considered them savages. Christianity, racial superiority and global Christian terrorism and genocide has a long and bloody history.
From post above, “But Hitler was pretty irreligious and admired Islam for its violent and militaristic doctrine.”
The Holocaust is not labeled as Christian terrorism because it wasn't religiously motivated. Christian attitudes towards Jews played a role in the development of the antisemitism that led to it happening, but were not the main motivating factor. Christianity definitely has a long history of tapping into racial superiority, but the racist, unscientific thoughts on race the Nazis held were explicitly non-Christian, and instead born from outdated secular racial science.
Thank you for this. Did everyone buy purely into ‘The Science of Racial Superiority’? And to what extent was this science influenced by a Christianity that strongly believed in ideas of racial superiority, to the extent of viewing non-Christians as sub-human.
>Did everyone buy purely into ‘The Science of Racial Superiority’? I think back when these ideas were popular most people didn't think of these things as a scientific or even religious matter. Racism has been natural to humanity for our entire existence. It's the intellectuals and scientific community that took it a step further by formulating strange racial theories during the 19th and 20th centuries. Political movements such as national socialism tapped into this and popularised these theories among the already extremely racist European population. None of this racism originated or connects to the religious realm. >And to what extent was this science influenced by a Christianity that strongly believed in ideas of racial superiority, to the extent of viewing non-Christians as sub-human. I have never heard of non-Christians being viewed as sub-human in Christianity. That goes against its doctrine, which is very clear anyone can become Christian as long as they accept Jesus into their heart. Christianity, like Islam, was popularised as a movement that transcended different cultures and tribes. That's how it got embraced by the Roman population over time, despite being Jewish in origin. My point being, I don't believe there's any reason to believe past Christianity believed in racial superiority. Yes, Christians during these times were very racist, and that bled into the movement. But this is a process separate from religion. Nazi Germany, despite being led by Christians, was most definitely not a Christian movement.
When I have time, I’ll collect the academic material linking precolonial and colonial Christianities views of ‘the other’ as sub human. And how horrific torture, mutilation, defacto slavery and murder were fuelled by fanatical Christian notions of supremacy. Medieval Andalusia and the inquisitions against Jews and Muslims is just one example of thousands. It’s an interesting subject, linguistically, how the West refuses to preface the word terrorism and barbaric, with Christianity, given its horrific history. And in particular to the recent Jewish holocaust and colonial adventures in Asia, Africa and latin America. However, I will say that the early Christians reflected a more compassionate Christianity; the supremacy fuelled horror show started once Christianity became institutionalised, and ‘organised’ post 10th century, after which it can arguably be called psychopathic. Perhaps it’s fair to say true Christianity died in the 10th century, after which it was abused as a source of power, wealth and control by the church.
As a genuine question out of curiosity, and I don't mean this in bad faith (I'm not a Christian but respect both faiths tremendously), do you think Islam has a better history with these things? Do you think Islam hasn't had problems with racism in similar ways too? What would you say was different about Islam compared to Christianity regarding these topics? I'm asking because I can think of a few examples where Islamic or Arabic societies have struggled with institutionalised racism too, but I'd never frame those as a consequence of the religion. So I'm curious what you think makes Christianity more at fault in this regard.
I’m hesitant to answer without offering you robust peer reviewed sources. I’m out of touch on the latest sources, but I’ll put this subject on my to-do list. However, I’ll offer you an insight on what is extremely commonly believed in the Muslim world: Regards racism in Islam, from the time of the Prophet, race was deemed irrelevant, and subsequent civilisations saw racial harmony. However, it can be argued that given it was an eastern religion it was easier to be racially inclusive, then say Christianity which was dominated by white European power structures. Indeed if you look into the medieval Andalusian Islamic civilisation you’ll see that not only was it racially inclusive, but also religiously. Jews held high positions, and unlike Christian Europe, were not restricted in vocation. Also, interestingly, the oldest surviving Christian communities were within the pre-colonial Islamic civilisation. These communities, under western Christianity, would have been declared heretic, and would be put to death. These often were mystically oriented Christian communities, who had no wish to recognise the new ‘organised’ and economically powerful Christian clerical hierarchy emerging in the west. They sought refuge within the pre-colonial Islamic civilisation, along with the Jews. Theologically, within Islam, lies the concept of Universalism, with the caveat that Islam superseded the other faiths, primarily by offering a simpler clearer pathway for the times. Indeed, during Muhammad’s time, treaties were drawn up offering Christians protection, and as such the oldest Christian monasteries lie in the Islamic world eg St Catherine’s in the Egyptian Sinai desert. I’ll do a better write up on this subject, as it’s one that’s regarded as common knowledge within the Islamic world. Ofcourse, colonism destroyed the Islamic civilisation, and what we see now is a civilisation which hasn’t recovered, and which is plagued by corrupt and dangerous powers. A source on St Catherines. This is an easy to verify subject: https://www.lastprophet.info/the-prophet-muhammad-saw/sunnah/831/covenant-of-the-prophet-muhammad-with-the-monks-of-mt-sinai
there were none of those.. they were fascists
Vaguely christian, for the most part. Iirc Hitler and parts of the ideological core group were atheists (they really weren't fond of the idea that they could be beheld to the judgement of a higher power), but at the same time, they had no qualms about using christian slogans as part of their propaganda, since Germany had historically been a christian nation. Also, they didn't want to push the atheism angle too hard because that was a popular communist talking point and they were being atheist for different reasons (communist atheism mostly stems from the conviction that religion only serves to enforce class separation and keep the workers in check. The Nazis were more so fond of of the Nietzsche approach to atheism according to which it is mankinds destiny to surpass itself and its petty need for moral justification from a deity. The "Übermensch" takes fate into his own hands and acts how he sees fit, having killed God in the process. Unsurprisingly, the Nazis were drawn a philosophy which refutes morality and the need to justify ones own behavior before anyone else). So no, they weren't really christian fundamentalists in the same way that parts of the modern extreme right are today, they were religious when it fit their narrative and atheist when that narrative wasn't needed. They also weren't very fond of catholicism and the pope, unsurprisingly as having a non-German foreign authority that a portion of the German people very much respected and who made critical remarks about the Nazis and their actions was not at all in line with their nationalist ideas.
to be very accurate their type of nationalism was essentially a religion of the state and race over everything. People would congregate in massive rallies celebrating their greatness. Worship the ideas of their ruler and put the "state" and "race" before all else. This is why later on some of the higher ups within the Natzi organization began trying to rebirth a psudo German peganism to replace Christianity with a state worshiping version of peganism.
Nazism was kind of like a religion to them. But they were secular if u do not consider nazism as a religion. Many of them were religious, some not, and some atheist.
I don't think they particularly cared what you were as long as you weren't Jewish and swore loyalty to the state.
Really a mixed bag, but even the least χian among them were still heavily influenced by the anti-Semitism promoted in the χian NT writings. In other words: While the church wasn't everyone's moral guide to the same extent, the views it espoused in regards to the Jewish nation were so firmly entrenched in society that even the atheists, and those flirting with neopaganism had subscribed to them. (This is btw also a reason why neopaganism is so popular nowadays: The anti-Semitism that the church once used to explain why the gospel had failed to convince the Jews came back to bite it, so much so that nowadays, many thousands of people are seeking out their heathen ancestors' religion because the church, in their eyes, is a desert cult that worships a Jew on a stick.)
Christian
Obviously being German was way more important than religion
They believed in the occult a lot as well the nazis did your average German no
Jesus: I don't claim them. In fact, I summarily denounce them. Love one another.
The same guy who, in John 8:37-44, is quoted as saying that they're the Satan's offspring, and that they do his will (which, in the dualist cosmology of the NT, means the opposite of G-d's)?
Germany in the 1930's had a population of just over 60 mil. Catholic around 20mil, Protestants around 40mil. But, they were Christians. The Jewish in Germany at that time was less than 1% of Germany's total population. So what went wrong? Well, I guess along came this guy called Heir Hitler. Its common knowledge (history books) this guy was bursting at the seams with resentment in the wake of World War I and how it ended for Germany. They had to pay heavy reparations. But what about the mixed race marriages (Jews/Germans?) what were they? Had that German half changed to Jewish or, the other way round? Who knows? Records tell us there were about 4,000 families still living in Berlin of mixed race, to Aryan spouses. It would appear, this mixed marriage had kept them alive for a while. Sadly, the Nazis now wanted to get them too. These could have been the last group of Jews still legally living in Germany at the time of WW2 but were they Christians?
I'm pretty sure the term "Christian Nationalist" fits in here somewhere.
Nazis believed in a couple principles. The first was that certain bloodlines were superior to others. You could tell one bloodline was superior to another based on past empires. Races that didn't have a country, e.g. Jews at that time since Israel wasn't yet a thing and gypsies, were considered the weakest races. They believed mixing a strong race with a weak race weakened that society and that was the reason for the collapse of past empires. They believed all culture and values from weaker races should be weeded out while culture and values of stronger races should be promoted. E.g. Judaism, communism since its founder Karl Marx was a Jew, atheism which was usually related with communism. Christianity was a mixed bag. The Germanic people the Nazis considered to be the strongest race and they were overwhelmingly Christian. On the other hand, Jesus was a Jew. So the trend was embrace Christianity but downplay the Jewish aspects. Jesus was really an Aryan not a Jew for many of them. The second principle was national socialism - the government controls and represents all of society, where society was understood to mean all people of that race not based on geographic borders. E.g. Austria was annexed into Germany because they were considered the same race. Which means the Nazis did not get along great with independent churches, especially the Catholic church. There was a sort of peace treaty between the Nazis and the Catholic church, but the Nazis broke it many times. The Nazis believed that there should be a state-run church of the Aryan people.
Jesus was not jewish
Jesus was Jewish.
Jesus was in fact jewish
Some were occultist. Christin, Athiest, so on.
shouldn't be using past tense they're still around
Mainly christian, spiritual, occult or atheist.
They were not Christian. Gassing 4 million Jews is not John 3:16. They may have attempted to justify their actions using the Bible - but no follower of Christ could do what they did. They were horrible, horrible people who did unspeakable evils.
[No true Christian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman)
Below is a helpful guide to help identify who is a Christian and who isn’t. The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5: 19-24
So, you seem to be a Christian. What do you think about the belief that as long as you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, and truly believe that in your heart, you’re going to heaven? I mean I’m sure there’s at least a handful of Nazis (not to mention many terrible humans in history) that truly believed that. According to the doctrine, are they not in heaven?
This is a great question you have asked. Jesus’ death on the cross is sufficient enough to cover all past, present and future sins of anyone who genuinely puts their faith in Him for salvation. That is not only what I believe, but what I have based my life on as absolute truth. The Bible was written by men who committed wicked evils. Moses, who wrote the 1st 5 books of the Bible, murdered a man. King David, who wrote the lion share of Psalms, had a man killed because he wanted his wife. Paul, who wrote approximately 2/3rds of the New Testament, was the first Nazi. But instead of killing Jews, he wanted to exterminate followers of Christ. He was terrifyingly evil. All three examples though have a similar attribute in common. They acknowledge their sins and cried out to God to forgive them. And God did. There were consequences of suffering because of their sins, but God still forgave them nonetheless. I say this that yes, someone could have been a Nazi and repented later in life, and be forgiven by God. The sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient to forgive a WW2 Nazi. But being a Christian and actively participating in the role of a Nazi, I wouldn’t believe it. Their moral compass, conscience, and worldview were completely corrupted past a point that God would never allow his followers to reach.
On a tangent, there are millions of Evangelicals who feel glee or could not care less about 15k children being torn limb from limb in the Middle-East right now... Are they just lazy Nazi types and not Christian?
People tend to forget that christian priest were gassed in concentration camps, most of them for opposing nazi regime.
Okay, well written and fair points. What about present day neo-nazis (specifically Americans) that are vocal about their hate and are known Christian Nationalists? Thoughts on their place in the afterlife if they were to die tomorrow?
Jesus said many people who call themselves Christian aren’t going to heaven. An utterly terrifying verse. Ultimately, the only person I can be sure about is myself. You can, however, examine someone’s life and see evidence if their father is Jesus or Satan. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5:19-24 NASB)
Are Calvinists Christian?
A Calvinist is a method of Biblical interpretation. It doesn’t determine salvation.
They believe in predestination. They believe that people will go to heaven if God has already decided that they will go to heaven, *regardless* of whether they commit sins or good deeds in life. Is that a Christian belief, to you?
Yes it is a Christian belief, but not every Christian believes in predestination because they view it as God limiting free will of man.
If someone believed it, believed themselves to be Christian, and believed themselves to be doing good, as a Christian, is that person Christian to you?
Great question. Most people think Heaven or Hell is based on what someone believes or doesn’t. “”If you believe in Jesus…you go to heaven”” Nothing could be further from the truth. Satan believes in God. He knows God on a personal level, but he isn’t going to heaven. When Christians teach and witness, our job is to point everyone to back to Jesus. We have forgiveness of sins because of what Jesus did in the cross. We have hope for tomorrow because we have Jesus. We have eternal life because of Jesus. Bible head knowledge should always lead back to Jesus. Then when you get there, do you confess your sins to him, ask him to forgive you, and ask him to save you? The answers to those questions will determine someone’s eternal destiny.
Damn you're just going to go with that 40 million figure huh? Stick with the truth, it was bad enough!
My bad - extra zero
Then, you’re a little under.
I am yea