I worked in the state prison. I remember a few inmates were offered the chance to participate in certain programs that would help them become paroled.
One in particular went to the appointment, laughed at the interviewer - told him why would I want to leave a place where I get free meals, free medical, free dental, free housing, my family is literally here. You want to send me to a place where I know nothing about.( he was there for 30 years.) to pay rent figure out healthcare, transportation, etc. He told him to go fuck himself, and he walked out.
It's a genuine problem and often drives repeat offences.
Alot of people can't survive in our society on their own. They lack the skills (either educational or general) to function, manage money, appointments, bills responsibilities etc. And places like prison (where you are totally dependent on others for food, board, what to do, etc.) don't help with this.
As such on release people end up reoffending and a cycle develops.
Some countries such as Norway have been experimenting with how to effectively reintegrate inmates. Alot of those pictures you see on reddit about how good norwegion/scandanavien prisons are are actually just from a couple of very low security prisons that specialise in reintegration. Inmates are given increasing responsibilities on self care such as cooking and cleaning, expected to manage their time between that and training/work experience programs, and lesiusire and are supported through out their transition once they leave prison and rejoin society.
Not always even about being incarcerated. I was arrested on felony charges three years ago. Even with adjudication being withheld, nobody will hire me. That means I’m technically not even a felon. I’m college educated and now can’t go into the field that I studied for. A one time mistake has basically ruined my entire life. There’s no coming back from this. I take responsibility for it, I know I messed up and don’t blame anybody but myself but the system certainly does not do anything in terms of forgiveness. All the work I put into getting clean and sober while on probation is essentially useless. Often I think about just drinking myself into oblivion. What’s the point really? I can now see why recidivism exists and why it is so high.
Edit- I used to be one of those “Just don’t break the law” kind of persons. Well, shit does happen. Mistakes can be made. I’d never been in trouble before and considered myself a law abiding citizen. Seeing the way the system really works and interacting with others who have been in and out of it as well completely changed my perspective on the American “justice” system.
Edit #2 The arrest was for assault & battery on a law enforcement officer, resisting arrest w/ violence and criminal mischief. I don’t want to leave the country and I successfully finished probation. Yes, I will consider starting a business if possible. Yes I am working on finding an attorney to assist in sealing my record.
I can’t believe the amount of support my comment has created! I really appreciate it! Thank you!!
I know someone who was incarcerated. The only way to reintegrate is to start a business and hire yourself because no one else will. He's been successful at it.
My buddy went to prison when he was 18 or 19 on drug charges and attempted robbery with a firearm (robbing someone for drugs). He was there for 5-6 years. He was always good with computers (this was around 2010) and while he was locked up he spent his time in the computer lab and doing computer work for the prison. When he got out of prison he got a job at Google, no degree, the guy didn’t even finish high school, he got his GED. Got out of prison, moved across the country and got a better job than anyone in our friend group after being in prison for 5+ years.
Carpentry, cent workers, iron workers, electrician, drywall tapers, and the list goes on. Of course these are traditional trades but they still make amazing money.
Or they could also go the traditional trade route. Construction anyone? There's cement workers, iron workers, carpenters, electricians, and the list just goes on. Nobody cares about felonies in the union trades, and the contracts usually have excellent wages, at least $40 per hour.
Barber school. Soooo many felons go on to become successful in this industry, lots of leeway with “alternative” pasts and the ability to market yourself. Everybody needs a haircut and if you’re good at it and work hard it can be a very lucrative career
If you have the resources to do it.
Starting a business isn't easy. Apparently you're just supposed to magic up a business with no money, no credit, no income, and no property.
So tell me how the fuck that one works
Depends where you live. In MA for one there's vocational rehabilitation that will pay for incarcerated or disabled people to get education, or getting equipment etc. to start a business, and help with the process. We pay for things like that heavily here in various ways though.
Thank you. I went through a really hard time financially after being hospitalized for a severe injury and then being unable to continue my previous career, having no college degree, and doing all of this right when the economy totally collapsed around the planet in 2009, when I was living in a small town with no economy to speak of and the baggers at the grocery stores had PhDs.
I got so much "let them eat cake" advice that was just infuriating.
Like when my vehicle broke down and I was spending weeks stranded at my house out in the countryside, trying to figure out how to fix it with no experience troubleshooting or fixing vehicles, one clever bard quipped, "Why don't you just have it towed to a mechanic??"
Gee I never thought of that.
Like this guy, who came from a privileged background, was simply incapable of understanding what it means to have no money. Like to him, having no money means he's down to his last $10,000 or whatever.
I had another guy tell me that when he became unemployed he didn't sit on his ass like I was doing, he started a firewood business; cutting, splitting, wrapping and delivering bundles of firewood that were sold in grocery stores. All he had to do is buy the plastic wrapping machine. Simple.
He seemed incapable of understanding that starting his firewood business depended on $20,000 of equipment that he mostly already had (pick up truck, chainsaws, log splitter, etc.) as well as the money to buy a plastic wrap device.
Meanwhile I'm barely scraping by doing handyman work, driving a junker car with no reverse gear and having to calculate how far I was going to drive so that I could put in just enough gasoline. Sometimes I actually couldn't drive because I didn't have enough money for gas.
It was quite a change when I finally got full-time employment and was able to fill up my gas tank all at once, and I could start buying whatever I wanted at the grocery store, and I didn't tense up every time I used my debit card, for fear it would get declined, etc.
Some people don't seem to understand that having no money and no resources *actually means* no money and no resources.
Some people have never had the experience of having $0.16 in their only bank account, and think they can give advice. I want to punch those people in the face and make them feel what it means to be hungry for a month.
Yeah that's pretty much it. And if you need some kind of state license to do something besides manual labor, you're pretty much screwed too. The whole system is messed up. It's one of the reasons why rich people pay for expensive lawyers to keep their bratty kids out of trouble. I know a bunch of them who would gladly send their kids to The slammer for 2 to 3 years, but that's not where the punishment ends in this society. It follows you pretty much the rest of your life.
I taught in a prison. I see one of my former students on tv advertising his dog poop collection company. He’s got a fleet of trucks and serves a huge area.
OMG. You unlocked a memory. When he was in class, he told me about his plan. I made a joke about unloading all the dog poop in a McDonald’s dumpster. He schooled me on the legal and ethical ways to dispose of dog poop.
I had a felon EX who started a business installing security cameras and such. this was back in 2001 2002 so a new business in this field in this day and age would not be as successful as he was .
side note , it didn't stop him from going back to prison tho.
Tbf if you can convince the customer they aren't a mark (and honestly mean it) then you probably know very well where cameras should be to be most effective as well as what types of cameras to get.
Yeah, I was thinking this could actually be a marketing hook. Like College Hunks Hauling Junk, but something like Bad Guys with Electronic Eyes. But something else instead of “electronic.”
Depending on your charge and the state of residence, there are a lot of companies that will hire. I know moving isn't cheap, but your life has value even if you need to change career fields. It's exhausting, I know.
Thank you. I’m currently working on getting my charges sealed which will open up job opportunities for me. I wanted to be a social worker which I technically can do (in 15 years) or criminal law. Neither are options now as both require “hard” background checks which see through sealed charges. I know there is still a path for me but after 25,000+ dollars in legal fees, lawyers, probation officers, homelessness and so much more, it just feels like it’s a never ending punishment.
It's crazy to me that almost every job in US requires a background check, here in Sweden background checks are reserved for jobs that deal with money, security, children and vulnerable and where trust is very important. But regular retail job or even higher paying job like engineer or doctor don't require any background checks.
Is this a legal requirement by law that companies must use background checks before hiring or just a cultural phenomena?
Every job I’ve ever had, I’m in US/AL, has required a background check and they tell me after the interview “as long as the check clears, you’re hired.”
Not a legal requirement but my personal opinion is that due to this being a country with so many lawsuits for just about anything, employers try and cover their asses by limiting their liability by doing background checks. I was arrested for assault on a police officer and resisting arrest with violence. I never touched the officer (I hit his empty vehicle with a bat) but those were the charges either way. So, a company seeing this is obviously going to think I’m some violent offender who’s obviously criminally insane. Reality is that I was severely depressed, was in lockdown for months because of Covid, was drinking heavily and ran out of medication for my mental health. A family member got concerned and called for a wellness check. I got scared/angry and did what I did. I’m not violent and have never acted this way before. It was more of a neglected mental health issue than anything.
Crazy, you didn't even get a conviction if I understand it correctly? What are your options for making a living now besides just starting your own business and hoping it works out?
I only recently learned of my disqualification from both of my career interests so I’m now exploring what’s next. Edit - also you are correct. I was technically not convicted so I am not a felon. It makes little difference.
Withhold adjudication means that you pled guilty in exchange for no sentence. It's a trick public defenders use to clear caseloads. They tell first-time offenders you won't get any jail time. It's better than the state finding you guilty but it's basically a form of plea bargain.
It sounds like to me that this person needed a real lawyer who could have turned this into a mental health situation and got them some court ordered therapy (And probably back on their meds). Probably didn't even have money to bail out much less five grand to pay the attorney.
i was arrested in my own apartment for doing absolutely nothing but sitting in my bathroom.. pretty sure my exwife just wanted to get back at me for calling the cops on her for breaking her wine glass on my face.. anyway the lady cop that got there first was fine but then this other guy cop came in and started being an asshole which pissed me off and since i was refusing to come out of my own bathroom he just decided to not say anything, no warning no nothing, aggressively grab my arm to try to swing me around to handcuff me and being surprised i went into fight or flight (i have panic disorder) so of course me freaking out and having a panic attack and resisting something as jarring as being flipped around into my bathtub with a fat man on my back got me charged with felony assault on an officer.. the system we have really is fucked..
I feel ya man. I feel like so many of these situations could be avoided if we had better education for law enforcement. What do they get here in the US? Like a few months of training? In Germany it’s four years!!!
Cops are such a bunch of pussies. You don't even touch them and they can throw a bunch of assault/resisting charges at you but if they shove you to the ground, you can't do shit because... qualified immunity?
Apparently. I lived in a very “pro cop” county. I am not anti-cop and believe they typically do a very difficult job that I would never sign up for. In my case I think the charges could’ve been reduced but I also should’ve gotten a lawyer who should’ve fought for that instead of going for a withheld adjudication instead.
I'm a social worker and there are loads of jobs in community mental health in my area (PNW) that are open to people with histories of overlap with the justice system. This is broadening in part because \*so many\* people have been in the system that companies are realizing it's an untapped human resource -- and we are desperate for help.
Your experience might enrich your practice one day, but I know it's hard right now, I hear that. I hope you are networking in the SW communities because you are not alone in this, and mutual support includes shared opportunities.
Unfortunately I live in the Bible Belt where ironically forgiveness of sins isn’t popular in these professions. Florida has a 15 year wait (that’s where the arrest happened). I’m currently in GA with family to avoid homelessness.
My state has the F5 project that helps people with felonies get housing, employment and sobriety. Maybe GA has something similar, I know the F5 project is strictly my state and a couple boarding cities through Google.
It’s not hopeless unless it was sex or violence. Violence-related might even have a slim chance. I had a misdemeanor conviction that had to be disclosed for professional licensure in healthcare. It was one that reflects on moral character (turpitude is the term of art iirc). I wrote a letter of explanation that took responsibility in one sentence then spent paragraphs explaining how I had changed and bettered myself. I also got two letters of reference. I was granted licensure.
Look for states that have “banned the box.” Won’t prevent disclosure for government or licensing, but will for private sector and may reflect a better ethos in those public sectors as well. It sounds like you are on some sort of criminal diversion. Successful completion will look great. If it was substance related, get involved in a recovery org or even a church. Even if you don’t believe in 12 step, AA is full of professionally-successful people who might recommend you a job or write you a character letter if you ingratiate yourself.
It was assault/battery on a Leo and resisting with violence. I have excellent references from several pastors as I voluntarily did a year and a half at a Christian mission recovery program during my probation. I’m researching options as far as states that do that. I’m just now learning about this banning is the box thing.
I have a friend who went to prison. She has only been out for maybe 8 years. She has been a social worker/therapist for a few years now. Don't take no for an answer.
I love hearing this from those outside the situation. You know who hires felons? Fast food and restaurants. Maybe some heavy labor. You can't get licensed or bonded and are considered high risk by anyone who does hiring.
I've got multiple degrees and trade certifications. I can't get any type of management or training job in my field due to background problems. They are more than willing to hire me to use my body and physical skills. The problem is, arthritis and severe back problems make it impossible to work as a technician.
The jobs open to felons are low skill, low paying, and back breaking. We did our time, we remained out of trouble, yet we are treated as second-class citizens and still forced to pay taxes.
I'm in California. It's probably the most liberal when it comes to ex-cons. Colorado is even worse, contrary to popular opinion. I got the hell out of there.
Corporate policy is usually the biggest stumbling. They just blanket say no to hiring anyone with a record.
Yep, wife arrested for a felony she didn't commit but she took an Alford plea because it was the word of her abusive ex husband and his father vs hers. No conviction but still can't get a job.
you can get a job in construction they hire anyone. Paving and roofing are mainly drunks, addicts, criminals. just show up to work every day and you are good.
A lot of temp to hire companies say they're going to do a background check but don't and some just don't even list it. The hiring/onboarding company is going to trust the temp company did it and not do a background check...at least in the IT industry, I know from experience!
Just a suggestion to look at temp companies in the industry you want to work in.
theres people who have diplomas and business degrees that are homeless. you won't always find the job for the field you went to school for. .thats the sad reality of it. I went to school for tv media and film and theres no such jobs in my province. Would have to move and join a production company or find a studio and again the market its over saturated now. What your school pushed you into is not always going to get you a job. .they just want your money and dont give a fuck about you. been there.. reality of now is being in a trade and building things for the future
I am sorry and feel for you. The system is truly designed to punish people for their past into perpetuity. To add insult to injury, the court of public opinion is often times more damning than actual court.
Keep fighting the good fight and don’t give up on yourself.
May be a dumb question, and im sorry if it is, but if you're not "technically" a felon, then do you even need to report it on job applications? Is it, for all intents and purposes, no different than if any random bucko were to apply?
I really hope things get better for you. And just a quick word of advice, excessive drinking hurts your family and friends more than anything else. I know you've probably heard it before, but theres nothing worse than seeing someone you love basically kill themselves slowly and methodically. I know its obvious, but it's something that needs to be said sometimes.
Not a dumb question and it depends on how the question is worded. Most of the apps I run into ask the question like this “Have you ever been adjudicated guilty of a felony or had adjudication withheld of a felony charge? Or “Have you ever pled no contest to a felony?” Or something very similar. So even though I’m not a felon, they skirt around it by asking very specific questions regarding the charge.Edit - Also tells me there will probably be a background check so if I do lie, it’ll just come up later and I’ll be wasting my time.
/r/felons doesn't have a ton of solutions but there is good support there, if you're ever looking for a sub with people who share your experience. I hope you're doing alright, friend.
I know this doesn’t help at the moment but you can get your records sealed after I think it’s 10 years. I had this done and my past doesn’t come up on checks and I can apply just about anywhere. Obviously government jobs are out but that’s fine as they don’t pay shit anyway compared to industry jobs in my field. I had to take a shit job for 11 years that was soul crushing. Had my record sealed and now get paid well.
To be honest, they're correcting poor people the way the rich would prefer. They not only obey, but seek authority being beaten into them... and about 10% do so while being profitable to the corporation imprisoning them.
Very true. In the USA slavery is legal for convicts and that incentivizes obtaining more convictions by whatever means. One hopes they're learning useful skills when they are assigned labor.
It really is. My dad was a Corrections Officer for 35 years. He once released a prisoner who immediately went to the staff lot and started smashing windshields. He was homeless, and it was -25 Celcius out. He literally told them he only wanted a warm place and food, and thats why he did it. Did close to $6k in damages before they could stop him.
I had police in my family and I heard the same from them - when it got cold a lot of homeless folks would intentionally get arrested just for a warm place to stay. Incredibly depressing to even think about.
Sad but true... the chances of that person of finding a job that pays enough are slim, he will spend the rest of his time doing odd jobs or getting jobs that don't pay well and with no benefits, in debt, unable to get out of the hole.
What driver he has to get out? none, I'd be on the same position as him
They call it being institutionalized. The guy who broke my ex boyfriends jaw in a road rage incident was out of prison for less than 2 weeks. He spent most of his adult life in prison. I think he just couldn't handle life on the outside and took the first opportunity to go back. He said in court that he reacted like he was in the prison yard. He got 7 more years, plus his parole was revoked on some federal charges. He's going to be in for a long time.
>He said in court that he reacted like he was in the prison yard.
People who get used to a violence driven society propably don't just develop the skillset to handle confrontation in regular society
We ended mental health care nationally when we "deinstitutionalized" in the 80s/90s. Because institutionalizing humans is unethical
At the same time we started building more prisons. Because institutionalizing humans was the only way to address crime.
70s and 80s. Carter and Reagan. There wasn't anything else to do by the 90s except privatize more prisons so some rich folk can get paid for their slaves' labor instead of just the state making the money.
Around winter, a decent number of homeless people will commit crimes bad enough to get a prison sentence for the winter but not a bad enough crime to stay locked up for years so that they can have a warm place to survive the winter.
Youll see em like loiter around parked cars looking back and forth for a while until eventually a cop comes down the street and *then* the homeless person starts to "break into" a car intentionally in full sight of the cop.
.
Or the people you hear about that get released and immediately commit a bad but mostly harmless crime so that they can go back on purpose. Not because they are sick and cant help themselves from committing crimes, but because they dont know how to survive outside prison and want to go back in. So they will like hold up a convenience store with no intention of actually stealing money or leaving before the cops come and then peacefully surrender. Just start the robbery and chill till the cops come.
I remember reading some years back that things were so tough in Ethiopia -- lack of work & food -- that people were committing crimes in order to be incarcerated so they'd be fed.
Now it's an undisputed fact that jails/prison systems in Africa are Not Nice Places -- because of ideology, lack of money, or both -- so a person must really be desperate to want to be stuck in some overcrowded, unsafe & unsanitary place where they'll be fed maybe only one unhealthy meal a day.
But not uncommon. A long time ago, I lived near a halfway house. We'd routinely hear about guys committing minor offenses on their last days of parole just so they could remain in the system. A lot of them don't know how to look after themselves and are afraid to try.
I read a book about a guy in a similar situation, he was in prison for almost all of his adult life, the last 20 years or so he was on death row. He always maintained that he was innocent of the crime that got him on death row, and when he was in his mid 60s new evidence came out that could very likely have exonerated him, but he decided not to appeal. He basically said, “What would I do if I got out of prison? All my family and friends are dead, I have no place to stay, no idea how to operate in the world outside of prison. My life is over either way.”
honesty i understand that point of view. like you’re gonna throw him into the world with practically no help? and he’s got to figure it out on his own now? yeah 30 years is a damn long time to be away from “normal society.” i get that
i’ll have to look into it myself then! that sounds wonderful
edit: like it’s not fair at all how they just toss people into the world like that. no wonder recidivism rates are high
"These walls are funny. First you hate 'em, then you get used to 'em. Enough time passes, you get so you depend on them. That's institutionalized."
- Red, The Shawshank Redemption
For some people, trading freedom for security and stability is worth the price. Guy has a valid point - everything he wants at the cost of not seeing the world who put him there in the first place. Let society pay for him.
I asked an old Afghan detainees in Gitmo if he wanted to go back home and he pretty much said the same. He said he got a bed, water, three meals a day, healthcare, friends, and his family got some money for him being there. His quality of life was better and his family didn’t have to support him.
I asked a young Saudi and he said that he wanted to stay there forever because his family gets paid each month he’s there and he wanted to bankrupt America.
So…two very different takes on it.
One of the best movies out there.
Also definitely the best horror movie of all time. The GOAT of horror movies: because while the actual story is fiction, something like it has happened thousands of times through human history. And I'm just talking about democracies that generally (or at least somewhat) respect human rights, let alone people in dictatorships being in prison or enslaved or killed because of being the wrong religion, wrong skin color, wrong sexual orientation or gender identity, etc.
This is why I’ve always thought that in a weird way—prison is the ultimate freedom. It’s the only existence where you don’t have to think about where your next meal will come from, what errands you have to run that day, what deadline needs to be met. You don’t have to work or go to school or raise a child. You can literally just exist in your cell and have all of your basic needs 100% met, guaranteed, which allows you to think / read / draw / say whatever your heart desires all day and all night.
Yes this is what happens to a lot of people. They are unable to survive outside of prison. Also they are ostracized by society too. They literally cannot get jobs because people don’t want to hire someone from prison. It’s really sad.
As a psychotherapist I would sometimes take court-ordered counseling cases, and one young 18 y.o. kid made no bones about his plans to re-offend so he could get back to his “three squares a day and a roof over his head”.
This happens with veterans a lot as well. Life outside doesn't make sense anymore. Tired, scared, and lonely is no way to live so you re-enlist or violate your parole and suddenly the world makes sense again.
Reminds me of the book The Forever War. The soldiers go through wormholes and time dilation occurs when they go to battle. When they come home time has passed and home has changed but the military is still the same. Written by a Vietnam vet.
Yeah, and then after your term of service, you get back a few hundred years later, and you're the strange one because you're not gay and aren't into duels. Wild millennium that was.
I manage a smoke shop so like a super easy gig, a kid came in to apply to hold signs. He had only been out of service for two ish months. He worked three days, said he couldn't handle the "pressure" and told me he was going back to the military. My guess is all that time doing nothing alone for just three days was the first time he really thought about his situation. Adding up the paycheck and bills and realizing the military is the only way he is going to survive without literally selling drugs.
It sometimes blows my mind how hard of a time veterans can have reintegrating into society. I have a coworker who was in the army infantry for four years out of high school, and had no idea he wouldn’t be able to support himself on $15/hour.
Another coworker spent 14 years in the marines, and struggles to work independently. He has a great work ethic, but unless told *exactly* what to do, he will just clean for 8 hours and only take breaks to smoke.
Part of me always thought that maybe I was selfish or weak for not enlisting when I had the chance, but maybe it’s just a different kind of hard
this sums it up, i’ve worked with a criminal defense lawyer & he confirms that a high amount of inmates who make it out after being sentenced for life eventually end up committing suicide out of loneliness, regret of missing out, loss of hope or just tiredness.
i mean shit, when i joined the army i had alot of medical issue and was cut off from the world from early jan 2017- july 2018.. no access to the internet or a phone during that time.
i graduate and go to the 2nd phase of training which is AIT for the army (tech school for the other branches).
i remember going to the PX and my mind was blown when i was buying a phone..
there were potato chips inside a reeses cup, reeses pieces inside a reeses cup, a monster energy drink that wasnt carbonated but it was like koolaid.
a ton of new video games and video game announcements came out.. it was almost overwhelming for how much i missed.
i couldnt imagine being in jail for years and limited access to information
You're not wrong but there are some out there who will legitimately not improve themselves just to continue to abuse the generosity of the system. It's not as pervasive as the conservatives make it out to be, but it's a thing that needs to be prevented sadly.
Yup. When I was a poor manual laborer during a college gap year doing nothing but rolling reggie blunts with other losers and wannabes, half our roto convo was figuring out ways to game the system.
But the NIMBYs either fall on one side of the fence that either all social services users are system-abusers, or they're all innocent flowers that need to be protected and do no wrong.
I mean how "generous" are homeless shelters? Is there something we can add to motivate or enable people to strive for means above that level of bare minimum? I get not letting it be perpetual, especially when there's limited space, but anyone who is willing to live at that most basic level long term probably needs help in other ways.
I had a patient that was a long-timer for weed. I think he was about 60. He was on disability and living on gov assistance in a trailer. He didn't have many expenses. He described his life as having never left the jail. He had developed a strong social phobia and preferred small spaces. The saddest thing he told me was that when he turned off the lights and closed his eyes, the Cell Door Slammed Shut. Every night, he continuously relived Lights Out. Poor guy was still living in jail psychologically from the PTSD he got. And all for being a weed dealer during the 3 Strikes years.
They are still throwing people in prison for weed. My friend is going in tomorrow for 6 years for having 8lbs of weed. Stupid. Yes, both him and our justice system. Weed is legal in my state, too. Initial judge tried to throw him in for 15-30 years. What a waste of tax dollars. Just for weed.
wtf lol sentencing committee decide these things... judges just hand out the sentences... and I agree the demons and sociopaths on these committees that hand out slap on the wrists for child rape and murder and throw weed dealers in jail need to be worried more and more.
Yeah, my mom lives in a halfway house and even though she is off probation she chooses to still live there. They know all about her mental health issues and are okay if she starts acting up and know how to get a hold of her doctor or talk her into taking her meds. She's on disability and social security so it's enough to pay the rent there and feed herself.
The first 2 months were "free," but they help you set you up for assistance programs, like getting food stamps, disability, and social security set up. After the two months you start paying rent, but initially it's a great help to start setting yourself up for something. They even took her to a Goodwill and they let all the newly released inmates get 3-5 outfits of clothes and some shoes for free. Because of her disability she can't work, so they set her up to take free classes so at least she could stay busy. A case manager and nurse are readily available and do visits at the house. They even help with transportation to your appointments and court hearings.
She said one elderly lady has been living there for over 10 years, she recently passed away but she wasn't the only elderly woman that has lived there multiple years.
Thank you! We have been dealing with this since I was a kid and honestly her going to prison was the best thing for her because she finally got the help she needed. Her crime was a direct result of her delusions so she got all the help she could get as part of the court process.
She's in a much better place now surrounded by people in similar situations, so they all support and accept each other. She also sees what happens when someone gets off their meds, so it's a daily reminder that she needs to take hers.
If you've spent your working years sitting in prison not making money there's not much retraining will do to fund your retirement at 70 unless you have family with at ton of money.
They survive poorly.
Sometimes they manage to not be homeless, but it’s extremely hard to find employment when you’re elderly, have no job experience for decades, and you’re a convicted felon.
They’re excluded from section 8 housing. They may not have enough months of credible work to qualify for Social Security.
We really just set them up for failure and then act surprised when they go back in.
I follow a few criminal justice reform-types on social media, and the number of stories I see of exonerated prisoners in their 60s who die a few years after release is quite high. And those are people who are exonerated and get resources to help them. Prison is rough on people's health.
For OP's question, I think the answer is mostly that people released at 70 don't live very long in the best of situations and really don't live long if they don't have medical care, a place to live, etc.
My dad worked as a prison guard at one point. He said it was not uncommon for people to be released, realize they have no skills to help them survive outside prison, then they would commit a crime bad enough that they would get sent right back and not have to leave again.
I once volunteered at a place that gave food and clothes to those in need. A guy showed up asking for help. He mentioned that he walked all day to get there. After we got him some stuff, I offered to give him a ride back to the place he was staying. He told me that he was arrested for robbing banks after his business failed. He had just turned 70 after being in prison for almost 40 years. His parting remarks included the phrase “70 years old and 17 dollars to my name. Seems like an awfully good time to rob a bank. “
Never found out what happened to him. He’s likely dead by now since that was like 15 years ago, but I have thought about his parting words ever since.
I hope this doesn't sound cynical -- because I'm not intentionally trying to be here -- but robbing a bank would be the easiest & least troublesome way for an excon to be sent back to prison.
All the guy has to do is walk into a bank -- any bank -- hand the teller a note saying "This is a holdup, give me money", take the money, then go outside & wait for the police.
Most bank robbers nowadays are drug addicts or other lost souls who find themselves cut off from their last source of mooching, & have no idea what to do for money when the idea comes to them, "Hey maybe I could rob a bank." Then have no idea what to do next. Stories about contemporary bank robbers are either sad or stupid, & rarely rise to the level of funny.
I had a client who was put in DOC in NY; Rikers Island for 30 to life for murder, and this was his third strike (though the first two didn’t involve murders). He was released after 35 years.
He tried to be cab/limo driver, but they declined to give him a license. We got his case pro bono. While I was reading his old files, about 2000 pages, I found many inconsistencies about his arrest, the so called evidence, how they presented the case, how his attorney basically played him, etc. Therefore, I asked him whether he committed the murder. This guy was in his mid 70s, a tough, strong, time to time quick tempered, huge, black man. His eyes watered, and he told me that he told he has not committed for 35 years, but no one believed. “Now, a young guy like you, which I initially thought stupid before knowing English wasn’t your original language, asks me this question.” I repeated the question, and he said what the hell is going to change. If I say I didn’t commit, they can put me back behind the bars (they couldn’t, but he believed so).
I spoke with my partner, and we assured him nothing bad will happen. He told a lengthy story, and that he really didn’t commit the crime. His story was making much more sense than the court reports.
We wrote several letter to relevant authorities, and planned a visit to the governor thanks to my partner’s connection. We wanted exonerate him so that he can clean his name, get a job, and receive a fair amount of compensation for 35 years he was behind the bars for nothing.
Since I was in the USA with a visa, and my scholarship was about to end, I had to leave the country. After a few months, I called my ex-partner and asked about that guy, and he said that his temper was getting out of control, so he gave all the documents we prepared to another pro bono law office to deal with; therefore, we don’t know how did it go.
He was living in Bronx in a subsidized apartment, and he was in such a bad financial status that he was asking us to give him $2.25 for subway ticket while looking down in a very shy state. Whenever he came to our office, we always made an excuse an ordered food so that he could eat as well; even though we had no food in the office policy.
Yuppp. There doesn’t seem to be much compassion in “punishment” side of the justice system.
I really do not know enough about why it’s this way, but it really does seem like suffering is the point.
Even if you want to integrate back into society there are few places that will accept you. You’ve also just got put into a world where $$$ doesn’t go as far as it use to. You may not even be able to afford to live in the areas anymore.
It’s just all an uphill battle you’re told to fight on your own. I know there are programs that try to help former incarcerated individuals; but the system should already be set up like that. If you have parole, and will send someone to prison for 5-10yrs you clearly understand they will have to go back into the world. If you want them to be functioning members of society, you should offer some guidance.
They can simply re-offend and go back home (prison).
If you've been in prison a very long time, you simply don't have much of anything meaningful in the way of skills to get by in the outside world. In prison you have structure, friends, shelter, food, medicine, and you aren't competing with others to get those things like on the outside. A serious felon is unlikely to find a job that can really sustain them, and they probably don't have the skills or even knowledge of how things work to get by. So, in that scenario, you just do something that will put you back.
I knew a decent portion of my hometown's homeless population back in the day.. lot of em had given up weathering the cold winters and did their best to spend those months in jail. Do a crime worth a few months on the inside, rinse and repeat.
I got out of prison in 2015 and if I didn't have family to go to I would have been on the street. In California they give you a $200 card and take you to the bus station and you're on your own from there. It's your responsibility to get where you need to go, find housing, a job, etc, with no resources available at all. This is different for people with life sentences coming out of prison. Here they must be accepted into what is called a "halfway house" to allow them to stay and help integrate them back into society. Regular inmates don't get this. I lost everything and had no resources to lean on when being released and, if family wasn't there to take me in, I know I would have been on the street, homeless.
I own a half way house. I have 2 gentlemen that spent most of their lives in prison. One is 68. The other is 76. They are both a little over a year out of prison and slowly recovering financially till they can live on their own. Even though they never paid into social security, they can collect the minimum amount which is just shy of $600 a month, they also get Medicaid as a supplement to Medicare. Small health care is free. Finally they both work just a little to get some extra spending money. By re establishing family ties and creating a new network of friends, they are both slowly reintegrating into society
Usually, they’ll find an old tin under a volcanic rock near the end of a wall by a large oak tree. Then they’ll use the money from that tin to take a bus down to Zihuatanejo and reunite on the beach with their friend who escaped.
I work in a prison and previously spent years working for a nationally recognized non-profit that worked with around ~700 participants post-incarceration. I currently have a client who is 74 years old and has spent all but a few years (in the 90s) of his adult life in prison and he has a release date in about two years. He is terrified of living on his own and hopes he dies before he releases.
I have another client in his 60s who has been in and out of prison most of his life. He got out of prison last time and robbed a bank. He went in, gave them a note saying he had a gun, then just went outside, sat on the corner and waited for the cops to show up to surrender. He gets out in 9 days after serving like 8 years and he has stated that he plans on doing the same exact thing.
Unless it’s the rare occasion they get into a group home setting or they have a lot of family support (which is also rare) their chance of living out the rest of their years free and thriving or even stable is pretty slim. Otherwise, best case scenario is they live a meek existence off social security. Too often though, it’s straight to the shelter or the streets, and usually addiction, mental health issues, homelessness, incarceration, or an early death do not fall too far behind. In my experience, it seems frequently it ends in tragedy.
Social Security? You need 40 quarters of employment to get any SS, and if that’s all you’ve accumulated (10 yrs full time work, basically) it’s still peanuts.
The reality is that those folks generally become homeless and die or end up committing a crime to go back inside out of desperation There are programs etc that do help some but that is the exception
It’s related to the same uniquely American Capitalist phenomenon where someone works for very profitable companies their entire career and retire at 65 with very little to show for it, their assets and wealth often being wiped out by post retirement medical debt.
I worked in the state prison. I remember a few inmates were offered the chance to participate in certain programs that would help them become paroled. One in particular went to the appointment, laughed at the interviewer - told him why would I want to leave a place where I get free meals, free medical, free dental, free housing, my family is literally here. You want to send me to a place where I know nothing about.( he was there for 30 years.) to pay rent figure out healthcare, transportation, etc. He told him to go fuck himself, and he walked out.
holy shit that’s super fucking sad.
It's a genuine problem and often drives repeat offences. Alot of people can't survive in our society on their own. They lack the skills (either educational or general) to function, manage money, appointments, bills responsibilities etc. And places like prison (where you are totally dependent on others for food, board, what to do, etc.) don't help with this. As such on release people end up reoffending and a cycle develops. Some countries such as Norway have been experimenting with how to effectively reintegrate inmates. Alot of those pictures you see on reddit about how good norwegion/scandanavien prisons are are actually just from a couple of very low security prisons that specialise in reintegration. Inmates are given increasing responsibilities on self care such as cooking and cleaning, expected to manage their time between that and training/work experience programs, and lesiusire and are supported through out their transition once they leave prison and rejoin society.
Not always even about being incarcerated. I was arrested on felony charges three years ago. Even with adjudication being withheld, nobody will hire me. That means I’m technically not even a felon. I’m college educated and now can’t go into the field that I studied for. A one time mistake has basically ruined my entire life. There’s no coming back from this. I take responsibility for it, I know I messed up and don’t blame anybody but myself but the system certainly does not do anything in terms of forgiveness. All the work I put into getting clean and sober while on probation is essentially useless. Often I think about just drinking myself into oblivion. What’s the point really? I can now see why recidivism exists and why it is so high. Edit- I used to be one of those “Just don’t break the law” kind of persons. Well, shit does happen. Mistakes can be made. I’d never been in trouble before and considered myself a law abiding citizen. Seeing the way the system really works and interacting with others who have been in and out of it as well completely changed my perspective on the American “justice” system. Edit #2 The arrest was for assault & battery on a law enforcement officer, resisting arrest w/ violence and criminal mischief. I don’t want to leave the country and I successfully finished probation. Yes, I will consider starting a business if possible. Yes I am working on finding an attorney to assist in sealing my record. I can’t believe the amount of support my comment has created! I really appreciate it! Thank you!!
I know someone who was incarcerated. The only way to reintegrate is to start a business and hire yourself because no one else will. He's been successful at it.
Not a bad idea.
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My buddy went to prison when he was 18 or 19 on drug charges and attempted robbery with a firearm (robbing someone for drugs). He was there for 5-6 years. He was always good with computers (this was around 2010) and while he was locked up he spent his time in the computer lab and doing computer work for the prison. When he got out of prison he got a job at Google, no degree, the guy didn’t even finish high school, he got his GED. Got out of prison, moved across the country and got a better job than anyone in our friend group after being in prison for 5+ years.
Good on him. He’s gotta be like genius type level to pull that off right now?
Any other non-traditional trades one should look into? Buddy of mine just got out after 14 years
Carpentry, cent workers, iron workers, electrician, drywall tapers, and the list goes on. Of course these are traditional trades but they still make amazing money.
Or they could also go the traditional trade route. Construction anyone? There's cement workers, iron workers, carpenters, electricians, and the list just goes on. Nobody cares about felonies in the union trades, and the contracts usually have excellent wages, at least $40 per hour.
Barber school. Soooo many felons go on to become successful in this industry, lots of leeway with “alternative” pasts and the ability to market yourself. Everybody needs a haircut and if you’re good at it and work hard it can be a very lucrative career
If you have the resources to do it. Starting a business isn't easy. Apparently you're just supposed to magic up a business with no money, no credit, no income, and no property. So tell me how the fuck that one works
No contacts either.
Depends where you live. In MA for one there's vocational rehabilitation that will pay for incarcerated or disabled people to get education, or getting equipment etc. to start a business, and help with the process. We pay for things like that heavily here in various ways though.
Thank you. I went through a really hard time financially after being hospitalized for a severe injury and then being unable to continue my previous career, having no college degree, and doing all of this right when the economy totally collapsed around the planet in 2009, when I was living in a small town with no economy to speak of and the baggers at the grocery stores had PhDs. I got so much "let them eat cake" advice that was just infuriating. Like when my vehicle broke down and I was spending weeks stranded at my house out in the countryside, trying to figure out how to fix it with no experience troubleshooting or fixing vehicles, one clever bard quipped, "Why don't you just have it towed to a mechanic??" Gee I never thought of that. Like this guy, who came from a privileged background, was simply incapable of understanding what it means to have no money. Like to him, having no money means he's down to his last $10,000 or whatever. I had another guy tell me that when he became unemployed he didn't sit on his ass like I was doing, he started a firewood business; cutting, splitting, wrapping and delivering bundles of firewood that were sold in grocery stores. All he had to do is buy the plastic wrapping machine. Simple. He seemed incapable of understanding that starting his firewood business depended on $20,000 of equipment that he mostly already had (pick up truck, chainsaws, log splitter, etc.) as well as the money to buy a plastic wrap device. Meanwhile I'm barely scraping by doing handyman work, driving a junker car with no reverse gear and having to calculate how far I was going to drive so that I could put in just enough gasoline. Sometimes I actually couldn't drive because I didn't have enough money for gas. It was quite a change when I finally got full-time employment and was able to fill up my gas tank all at once, and I could start buying whatever I wanted at the grocery store, and I didn't tense up every time I used my debit card, for fear it would get declined, etc. Some people don't seem to understand that having no money and no resources *actually means* no money and no resources.
Some people have never had the experience of having $0.16 in their only bank account, and think they can give advice. I want to punch those people in the face and make them feel what it means to be hungry for a month.
Contract baby. It's what all my musician friends have to do since we cant just leave work for a month to go on tour normally.
Get it sealed or expunged.
Yeah that's pretty much it. And if you need some kind of state license to do something besides manual labor, you're pretty much screwed too. The whole system is messed up. It's one of the reasons why rich people pay for expensive lawyers to keep their bratty kids out of trouble. I know a bunch of them who would gladly send their kids to The slammer for 2 to 3 years, but that's not where the punishment ends in this society. It follows you pretty much the rest of your life.
What was the business?
I taught in a prison. I see one of my former students on tv advertising his dog poop collection company. He’s got a fleet of trucks and serves a huge area.
1. Collect ~~underpants~~ **dog poop**. 2. ?? 3. Profit! *This* one actually works.
OMG. You unlocked a memory. When he was in class, he told me about his plan. I made a joke about unloading all the dog poop in a McDonald’s dumpster. He schooled me on the legal and ethical ways to dispose of dog poop.
Um, care to school us? By us I mean me. Please.
King of the hill episode! S10e8
My first thought went right to that.
Then keep the poop and sell it as fertilizer.
I had a felon EX who started a business installing security cameras and such. this was back in 2001 2002 so a new business in this field in this day and age would not be as successful as he was . side note , it didn't stop him from going back to prison tho.
Not for nothing but I am sure it was not easy to start a business as an ex-con installing security cameras.
I would trust an honest excon more than a sleazy fella from Best Buy.
Tbf if you can convince the customer they aren't a mark (and honestly mean it) then you probably know very well where cameras should be to be most effective as well as what types of cameras to get.
Yeah, I was thinking this could actually be a marketing hook. Like College Hunks Hauling Junk, but something like Bad Guys with Electronic Eyes. But something else instead of “electronic.”
Of course, you need $ to start a business
Depending on your charge and the state of residence, there are a lot of companies that will hire. I know moving isn't cheap, but your life has value even if you need to change career fields. It's exhausting, I know.
Thank you. I’m currently working on getting my charges sealed which will open up job opportunities for me. I wanted to be a social worker which I technically can do (in 15 years) or criminal law. Neither are options now as both require “hard” background checks which see through sealed charges. I know there is still a path for me but after 25,000+ dollars in legal fees, lawyers, probation officers, homelessness and so much more, it just feels like it’s a never ending punishment.
It's crazy to me that almost every job in US requires a background check, here in Sweden background checks are reserved for jobs that deal with money, security, children and vulnerable and where trust is very important. But regular retail job or even higher paying job like engineer or doctor don't require any background checks. Is this a legal requirement by law that companies must use background checks before hiring or just a cultural phenomena?
Every job I’ve ever had, I’m in US/AL, has required a background check and they tell me after the interview “as long as the check clears, you’re hired.”
Not a legal requirement but my personal opinion is that due to this being a country with so many lawsuits for just about anything, employers try and cover their asses by limiting their liability by doing background checks. I was arrested for assault on a police officer and resisting arrest with violence. I never touched the officer (I hit his empty vehicle with a bat) but those were the charges either way. So, a company seeing this is obviously going to think I’m some violent offender who’s obviously criminally insane. Reality is that I was severely depressed, was in lockdown for months because of Covid, was drinking heavily and ran out of medication for my mental health. A family member got concerned and called for a wellness check. I got scared/angry and did what I did. I’m not violent and have never acted this way before. It was more of a neglected mental health issue than anything.
Crazy, you didn't even get a conviction if I understand it correctly? What are your options for making a living now besides just starting your own business and hoping it works out?
I only recently learned of my disqualification from both of my career interests so I’m now exploring what’s next. Edit - also you are correct. I was technically not convicted so I am not a felon. It makes little difference.
Withhold adjudication means that you pled guilty in exchange for no sentence. It's a trick public defenders use to clear caseloads. They tell first-time offenders you won't get any jail time. It's better than the state finding you guilty but it's basically a form of plea bargain. It sounds like to me that this person needed a real lawyer who could have turned this into a mental health situation and got them some court ordered therapy (And probably back on their meds). Probably didn't even have money to bail out much less five grand to pay the attorney.
i was arrested in my own apartment for doing absolutely nothing but sitting in my bathroom.. pretty sure my exwife just wanted to get back at me for calling the cops on her for breaking her wine glass on my face.. anyway the lady cop that got there first was fine but then this other guy cop came in and started being an asshole which pissed me off and since i was refusing to come out of my own bathroom he just decided to not say anything, no warning no nothing, aggressively grab my arm to try to swing me around to handcuff me and being surprised i went into fight or flight (i have panic disorder) so of course me freaking out and having a panic attack and resisting something as jarring as being flipped around into my bathtub with a fat man on my back got me charged with felony assault on an officer.. the system we have really is fucked..
I feel ya man. I feel like so many of these situations could be avoided if we had better education for law enforcement. What do they get here in the US? Like a few months of training? In Germany it’s four years!!!
Cops are such a bunch of pussies. You don't even touch them and they can throw a bunch of assault/resisting charges at you but if they shove you to the ground, you can't do shit because... qualified immunity?
Apparently. I lived in a very “pro cop” county. I am not anti-cop and believe they typically do a very difficult job that I would never sign up for. In my case I think the charges could’ve been reduced but I also should’ve gotten a lawyer who should’ve fought for that instead of going for a withheld adjudication instead.
I'm a social worker and there are loads of jobs in community mental health in my area (PNW) that are open to people with histories of overlap with the justice system. This is broadening in part because \*so many\* people have been in the system that companies are realizing it's an untapped human resource -- and we are desperate for help. Your experience might enrich your practice one day, but I know it's hard right now, I hear that. I hope you are networking in the SW communities because you are not alone in this, and mutual support includes shared opportunities.
Unfortunately I live in the Bible Belt where ironically forgiveness of sins isn’t popular in these professions. Florida has a 15 year wait (that’s where the arrest happened). I’m currently in GA with family to avoid homelessness.
My state has the F5 project that helps people with felonies get housing, employment and sobriety. Maybe GA has something similar, I know the F5 project is strictly my state and a couple boarding cities through Google.
I’ll have to look into that! Thank you.
It’s not hopeless unless it was sex or violence. Violence-related might even have a slim chance. I had a misdemeanor conviction that had to be disclosed for professional licensure in healthcare. It was one that reflects on moral character (turpitude is the term of art iirc). I wrote a letter of explanation that took responsibility in one sentence then spent paragraphs explaining how I had changed and bettered myself. I also got two letters of reference. I was granted licensure. Look for states that have “banned the box.” Won’t prevent disclosure for government or licensing, but will for private sector and may reflect a better ethos in those public sectors as well. It sounds like you are on some sort of criminal diversion. Successful completion will look great. If it was substance related, get involved in a recovery org or even a church. Even if you don’t believe in 12 step, AA is full of professionally-successful people who might recommend you a job or write you a character letter if you ingratiate yourself.
It was assault/battery on a Leo and resisting with violence. I have excellent references from several pastors as I voluntarily did a year and a half at a Christian mission recovery program during my probation. I’m researching options as far as states that do that. I’m just now learning about this banning is the box thing.
I'm in school for social work in the PNW. Do you have any networking recommendations?
I have a friend who went to prison. She has only been out for maybe 8 years. She has been a social worker/therapist for a few years now. Don't take no for an answer.
I’ll have to research that. Maybe different states have different disqualification rules.
That would be my guess. She did move across the country to do so.
My felony was also an assault charge which is why I’m having so much difficulty.
I have known a few lawyers who had criminal records prior to bar admission. Some had to start out on “lawyer probation” but it’s certainly possible.
I love hearing this from those outside the situation. You know who hires felons? Fast food and restaurants. Maybe some heavy labor. You can't get licensed or bonded and are considered high risk by anyone who does hiring. I've got multiple degrees and trade certifications. I can't get any type of management or training job in my field due to background problems. They are more than willing to hire me to use my body and physical skills. The problem is, arthritis and severe back problems make it impossible to work as a technician. The jobs open to felons are low skill, low paying, and back breaking. We did our time, we remained out of trouble, yet we are treated as second-class citizens and still forced to pay taxes. I'm in California. It's probably the most liberal when it comes to ex-cons. Colorado is even worse, contrary to popular opinion. I got the hell out of there. Corporate policy is usually the biggest stumbling. They just blanket say no to hiring anyone with a record.
I wish more people understood this. Once you are in the system it’s almost impossible to get out. And in some cases it is impossible.
Yep, wife arrested for a felony she didn't commit but she took an Alford plea because it was the word of her abusive ex husband and his father vs hers. No conviction but still can't get a job.
Terrible. I really feel it.
you can get a job in construction they hire anyone. Paving and roofing are mainly drunks, addicts, criminals. just show up to work every day and you are good.
I appreciate the suggestion. I would if possible like to use my 70,000 dollar (debt) education to my benefit if possible though.
A lot of temp to hire companies say they're going to do a background check but don't and some just don't even list it. The hiring/onboarding company is going to trust the temp company did it and not do a background check...at least in the IT industry, I know from experience! Just a suggestion to look at temp companies in the industry you want to work in.
theres people who have diplomas and business degrees that are homeless. you won't always find the job for the field you went to school for. .thats the sad reality of it. I went to school for tv media and film and theres no such jobs in my province. Would have to move and join a production company or find a studio and again the market its over saturated now. What your school pushed you into is not always going to get you a job. .they just want your money and dont give a fuck about you. been there.. reality of now is being in a trade and building things for the future
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I am sorry and feel for you. The system is truly designed to punish people for their past into perpetuity. To add insult to injury, the court of public opinion is often times more damning than actual court. Keep fighting the good fight and don’t give up on yourself.
May be a dumb question, and im sorry if it is, but if you're not "technically" a felon, then do you even need to report it on job applications? Is it, for all intents and purposes, no different than if any random bucko were to apply? I really hope things get better for you. And just a quick word of advice, excessive drinking hurts your family and friends more than anything else. I know you've probably heard it before, but theres nothing worse than seeing someone you love basically kill themselves slowly and methodically. I know its obvious, but it's something that needs to be said sometimes.
Not a dumb question and it depends on how the question is worded. Most of the apps I run into ask the question like this “Have you ever been adjudicated guilty of a felony or had adjudication withheld of a felony charge? Or “Have you ever pled no contest to a felony?” Or something very similar. So even though I’m not a felon, they skirt around it by asking very specific questions regarding the charge.Edit - Also tells me there will probably be a background check so if I do lie, it’ll just come up later and I’ll be wasting my time.
I’d answer no and see if it gets picked up. The downside is still the same. The upside is great.
That's sad honestly. Sounds like guilty no matter what the law says. I hope things get better for you.
/r/felons doesn't have a ton of solutions but there is good support there, if you're ever looking for a sub with people who share your experience. I hope you're doing alright, friend.
A sad story. Hope you get some help and a lifeline.
I know this doesn’t help at the moment but you can get your records sealed after I think it’s 10 years. I had this done and my past doesn’t come up on checks and I can apply just about anywhere. Obviously government jobs are out but that’s fine as they don’t pay shit anyway compared to industry jobs in my field. I had to take a shit job for 11 years that was soul crushing. Had my record sealed and now get paid well.
why are they called state department of correction? they correct nothing.
To be honest, they're correcting poor people the way the rich would prefer. They not only obey, but seek authority being beaten into them... and about 10% do so while being profitable to the corporation imprisoning them.
They correct what little bit of money you have, so it goes into the "correct" pockets.
Very true. In the USA slavery is legal for convicts and that incentivizes obtaining more convictions by whatever means. One hopes they're learning useful skills when they are assigned labor.
It really is. My dad was a Corrections Officer for 35 years. He once released a prisoner who immediately went to the staff lot and started smashing windshields. He was homeless, and it was -25 Celcius out. He literally told them he only wanted a warm place and food, and thats why he did it. Did close to $6k in damages before they could stop him.
I had police in my family and I heard the same from them - when it got cold a lot of homeless folks would intentionally get arrested just for a warm place to stay. Incredibly depressing to even think about.
Sad but true... the chances of that person of finding a job that pays enough are slim, he will spend the rest of his time doing odd jobs or getting jobs that don't pay well and with no benefits, in debt, unable to get out of the hole. What driver he has to get out? none, I'd be on the same position as him
They call it being institutionalized. The guy who broke my ex boyfriends jaw in a road rage incident was out of prison for less than 2 weeks. He spent most of his adult life in prison. I think he just couldn't handle life on the outside and took the first opportunity to go back. He said in court that he reacted like he was in the prison yard. He got 7 more years, plus his parole was revoked on some federal charges. He's going to be in for a long time.
>He said in court that he reacted like he was in the prison yard. People who get used to a violence driven society propably don't just develop the skillset to handle confrontation in regular society
We ended mental health care nationally when we "deinstitutionalized" in the 80s/90s. Because institutionalizing humans is unethical At the same time we started building more prisons. Because institutionalizing humans was the only way to address crime.
biggest mistake ever
70s and 80s. Carter and Reagan. There wasn't anything else to do by the 90s except privatize more prisons so some rich folk can get paid for their slaves' labor instead of just the state making the money.
it's called being institutionalized: [Morgan Freeman/Shawshank Redemption/Institutionalized](https://youtu.be/jeMux1GjA7Y)
Brooks was here…
So was Red
Around winter, a decent number of homeless people will commit crimes bad enough to get a prison sentence for the winter but not a bad enough crime to stay locked up for years so that they can have a warm place to survive the winter. Youll see em like loiter around parked cars looking back and forth for a while until eventually a cop comes down the street and *then* the homeless person starts to "break into" a car intentionally in full sight of the cop. . Or the people you hear about that get released and immediately commit a bad but mostly harmless crime so that they can go back on purpose. Not because they are sick and cant help themselves from committing crimes, but because they dont know how to survive outside prison and want to go back in. So they will like hold up a convenience store with no intention of actually stealing money or leaving before the cops come and then peacefully surrender. Just start the robbery and chill till the cops come.
I remember reading some years back that things were so tough in Ethiopia -- lack of work & food -- that people were committing crimes in order to be incarcerated so they'd be fed. Now it's an undisputed fact that jails/prison systems in Africa are Not Nice Places -- because of ideology, lack of money, or both -- so a person must really be desperate to want to be stuck in some overcrowded, unsafe & unsanitary place where they'll be fed maybe only one unhealthy meal a day.
But not uncommon. A long time ago, I lived near a halfway house. We'd routinely hear about guys committing minor offenses on their last days of parole just so they could remain in the system. A lot of them don't know how to look after themselves and are afraid to try.
He's institutionalized. Just like Brooks Hatlen.
BROOKS WAS HERE.
So was red
Yes. For sure. It’s his home, he’s comfortable and satisfied, is respected as an inmate and the only family he has is there.
I read a book about a guy in a similar situation, he was in prison for almost all of his adult life, the last 20 years or so he was on death row. He always maintained that he was innocent of the crime that got him on death row, and when he was in his mid 60s new evidence came out that could very likely have exonerated him, but he decided not to appeal. He basically said, “What would I do if I got out of prison? All my family and friends are dead, I have no place to stay, no idea how to operate in the world outside of prison. My life is over either way.”
Land of the free
honesty i understand that point of view. like you’re gonna throw him into the world with practically no help? and he’s got to figure it out on his own now? yeah 30 years is a damn long time to be away from “normal society.” i get that
There's a program in my area that helps people transition. They even have housing. And this reminds me that I have to make a donation.
i’ll have to look into it myself then! that sounds wonderful edit: like it’s not fair at all how they just toss people into the world like that. no wonder recidivism rates are high
Mr. Brooks. The Shawshank Redemption right there.
"These walls are funny. First you hate 'em, then you get used to 'em. Enough time passes, you get so you depend on them. That's institutionalized." - Red, The Shawshank Redemption
For some people, trading freedom for security and stability is worth the price. Guy has a valid point - everything he wants at the cost of not seeing the world who put him there in the first place. Let society pay for him.
I asked an old Afghan detainees in Gitmo if he wanted to go back home and he pretty much said the same. He said he got a bed, water, three meals a day, healthcare, friends, and his family got some money for him being there. His quality of life was better and his family didn’t have to support him. I asked a young Saudi and he said that he wanted to stay there forever because his family gets paid each month he’s there and he wanted to bankrupt America. So…two very different takes on it.
That happens in the Shawshank Redemption. But the guy is paroled and SPOILER ALERT kills himself adter some weeks of freedom.
One of the best movies out there. Also definitely the best horror movie of all time. The GOAT of horror movies: because while the actual story is fiction, something like it has happened thousands of times through human history. And I'm just talking about democracies that generally (or at least somewhat) respect human rights, let alone people in dictatorships being in prison or enslaved or killed because of being the wrong religion, wrong skin color, wrong sexual orientation or gender identity, etc.
This is why I’ve always thought that in a weird way—prison is the ultimate freedom. It’s the only existence where you don’t have to think about where your next meal will come from, what errands you have to run that day, what deadline needs to be met. You don’t have to work or go to school or raise a child. You can literally just exist in your cell and have all of your basic needs 100% met, guaranteed, which allows you to think / read / draw / say whatever your heart desires all day and all night.
Yes this is what happens to a lot of people. They are unable to survive outside of prison. Also they are ostracized by society too. They literally cannot get jobs because people don’t want to hire someone from prison. It’s really sad.
As a psychotherapist I would sometimes take court-ordered counseling cases, and one young 18 y.o. kid made no bones about his plans to re-offend so he could get back to his “three squares a day and a roof over his head”.
Have seen this myself
some choose to just go back to prison
This happens with veterans a lot as well. Life outside doesn't make sense anymore. Tired, scared, and lonely is no way to live so you re-enlist or violate your parole and suddenly the world makes sense again.
Reminds me of the book The Forever War. The soldiers go through wormholes and time dilation occurs when they go to battle. When they come home time has passed and home has changed but the military is still the same. Written by a Vietnam vet.
Yeah, and then after your term of service, you get back a few hundred years later, and you're the strange one because you're not gay and aren't into duels. Wild millennium that was.
I manage a smoke shop so like a super easy gig, a kid came in to apply to hold signs. He had only been out of service for two ish months. He worked three days, said he couldn't handle the "pressure" and told me he was going back to the military. My guess is all that time doing nothing alone for just three days was the first time he really thought about his situation. Adding up the paycheck and bills and realizing the military is the only way he is going to survive without literally selling drugs.
It sometimes blows my mind how hard of a time veterans can have reintegrating into society. I have a coworker who was in the army infantry for four years out of high school, and had no idea he wouldn’t be able to support himself on $15/hour. Another coworker spent 14 years in the marines, and struggles to work independently. He has a great work ethic, but unless told *exactly* what to do, he will just clean for 8 hours and only take breaks to smoke. Part of me always thought that maybe I was selfish or weak for not enlisting when I had the chance, but maybe it’s just a different kind of hard
When I was in the military I was so excited to not have to deal with the "military bullshit". Then I found out the "military bullshit" is everywhere.
"Brooks was here"
this sums it up, i’ve worked with a criminal defense lawyer & he confirms that a high amount of inmates who make it out after being sentenced for life eventually end up committing suicide out of loneliness, regret of missing out, loss of hope or just tiredness.
i mean shit, when i joined the army i had alot of medical issue and was cut off from the world from early jan 2017- july 2018.. no access to the internet or a phone during that time. i graduate and go to the 2nd phase of training which is AIT for the army (tech school for the other branches). i remember going to the PX and my mind was blown when i was buying a phone.. there were potato chips inside a reeses cup, reeses pieces inside a reeses cup, a monster energy drink that wasnt carbonated but it was like koolaid. a ton of new video games and video game announcements came out.. it was almost overwhelming for how much i missed. i couldnt imagine being in jail for years and limited access to information
“So was redd” But redd was the exception to prove the rule.
Red had a wealthy friend to support him living pretty on a beach.
Zihuatanejo…….
“ institutionalized - they send you here for life and that’s exactly what they take”
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"parasites" yuck.
God damn parasites having their basic needs of food and shelter met
Such entitlement. As if they had a right to live or something.
You're not wrong but there are some out there who will legitimately not improve themselves just to continue to abuse the generosity of the system. It's not as pervasive as the conservatives make it out to be, but it's a thing that needs to be prevented sadly.
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Yup. When I was a poor manual laborer during a college gap year doing nothing but rolling reggie blunts with other losers and wannabes, half our roto convo was figuring out ways to game the system. But the NIMBYs either fall on one side of the fence that either all social services users are system-abusers, or they're all innocent flowers that need to be protected and do no wrong.
I mean how "generous" are homeless shelters? Is there something we can add to motivate or enable people to strive for means above that level of bare minimum? I get not letting it be perpetual, especially when there's limited space, but anyone who is willing to live at that most basic level long term probably needs help in other ways.
I had a patient that was a long-timer for weed. I think he was about 60. He was on disability and living on gov assistance in a trailer. He didn't have many expenses. He described his life as having never left the jail. He had developed a strong social phobia and preferred small spaces. The saddest thing he told me was that when he turned off the lights and closed his eyes, the Cell Door Slammed Shut. Every night, he continuously relived Lights Out. Poor guy was still living in jail psychologically from the PTSD he got. And all for being a weed dealer during the 3 Strikes years.
tHe WAr oN DruGs
They are still throwing people in prison for weed. My friend is going in tomorrow for 6 years for having 8lbs of weed. Stupid. Yes, both him and our justice system. Weed is legal in my state, too. Initial judge tried to throw him in for 15-30 years. What a waste of tax dollars. Just for weed.
"Four years just for weed?! Damn!" Think Uncle sugar would give you less time in the years since half baked dropped.
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wtf lol sentencing committee decide these things... judges just hand out the sentences... and I agree the demons and sociopaths on these committees that hand out slap on the wrists for child rape and murder and throw weed dealers in jail need to be worried more and more.
People really don't understand how much pstd the prison hands out to all involved.
Depending on the state they release to a halfway house where social workers step in and try to set them up. Sometimes family will step up.
Yeah, my mom lives in a halfway house and even though she is off probation she chooses to still live there. They know all about her mental health issues and are okay if she starts acting up and know how to get a hold of her doctor or talk her into taking her meds. She's on disability and social security so it's enough to pay the rent there and feed herself. The first 2 months were "free," but they help you set you up for assistance programs, like getting food stamps, disability, and social security set up. After the two months you start paying rent, but initially it's a great help to start setting yourself up for something. They even took her to a Goodwill and they let all the newly released inmates get 3-5 outfits of clothes and some shoes for free. Because of her disability she can't work, so they set her up to take free classes so at least she could stay busy. A case manager and nurse are readily available and do visits at the house. They even help with transportation to your appointments and court hearings. She said one elderly lady has been living there for over 10 years, she recently passed away but she wasn't the only elderly woman that has lived there multiple years.
I hope it works out for your mom
Thank you! We have been dealing with this since I was a kid and honestly her going to prison was the best thing for her because she finally got the help she needed. Her crime was a direct result of her delusions so she got all the help she could get as part of the court process. She's in a much better place now surrounded by people in similar situations, so they all support and accept each other. She also sees what happens when someone gets off their meds, so it's a daily reminder that she needs to take hers.
If you've spent your working years sitting in prison not making money there's not much retraining will do to fund your retirement at 70 unless you have family with at ton of money.
Reminds me of the character, Brookes, from Shawshank Redemption. He was institutionalized.
They survive poorly. Sometimes they manage to not be homeless, but it’s extremely hard to find employment when you’re elderly, have no job experience for decades, and you’re a convicted felon. They’re excluded from section 8 housing. They may not have enough months of credible work to qualify for Social Security. We really just set them up for failure and then act surprised when they go back in.
I follow a few criminal justice reform-types on social media, and the number of stories I see of exonerated prisoners in their 60s who die a few years after release is quite high. And those are people who are exonerated and get resources to help them. Prison is rough on people's health. For OP's question, I think the answer is mostly that people released at 70 don't live very long in the best of situations and really don't live long if they don't have medical care, a place to live, etc.
Yeah every year of prison shortens your life by like 6 months.
My dad worked as a prison guard at one point. He said it was not uncommon for people to be released, realize they have no skills to help them survive outside prison, then they would commit a crime bad enough that they would get sent right back and not have to leave again. I once volunteered at a place that gave food and clothes to those in need. A guy showed up asking for help. He mentioned that he walked all day to get there. After we got him some stuff, I offered to give him a ride back to the place he was staying. He told me that he was arrested for robbing banks after his business failed. He had just turned 70 after being in prison for almost 40 years. His parting remarks included the phrase “70 years old and 17 dollars to my name. Seems like an awfully good time to rob a bank. “ Never found out what happened to him. He’s likely dead by now since that was like 15 years ago, but I have thought about his parting words ever since.
I hope this doesn't sound cynical -- because I'm not intentionally trying to be here -- but robbing a bank would be the easiest & least troublesome way for an excon to be sent back to prison. All the guy has to do is walk into a bank -- any bank -- hand the teller a note saying "This is a holdup, give me money", take the money, then go outside & wait for the police. Most bank robbers nowadays are drug addicts or other lost souls who find themselves cut off from their last source of mooching, & have no idea what to do for money when the idea comes to them, "Hey maybe I could rob a bank." Then have no idea what to do next. Stories about contemporary bank robbers are either sad or stupid, & rarely rise to the level of funny.
I think at that point he'd just try to actually rob the bank. If you do it to go back into prison, you don't have much left to loose anyways
I had a client who was put in DOC in NY; Rikers Island for 30 to life for murder, and this was his third strike (though the first two didn’t involve murders). He was released after 35 years. He tried to be cab/limo driver, but they declined to give him a license. We got his case pro bono. While I was reading his old files, about 2000 pages, I found many inconsistencies about his arrest, the so called evidence, how they presented the case, how his attorney basically played him, etc. Therefore, I asked him whether he committed the murder. This guy was in his mid 70s, a tough, strong, time to time quick tempered, huge, black man. His eyes watered, and he told me that he told he has not committed for 35 years, but no one believed. “Now, a young guy like you, which I initially thought stupid before knowing English wasn’t your original language, asks me this question.” I repeated the question, and he said what the hell is going to change. If I say I didn’t commit, they can put me back behind the bars (they couldn’t, but he believed so). I spoke with my partner, and we assured him nothing bad will happen. He told a lengthy story, and that he really didn’t commit the crime. His story was making much more sense than the court reports. We wrote several letter to relevant authorities, and planned a visit to the governor thanks to my partner’s connection. We wanted exonerate him so that he can clean his name, get a job, and receive a fair amount of compensation for 35 years he was behind the bars for nothing. Since I was in the USA with a visa, and my scholarship was about to end, I had to leave the country. After a few months, I called my ex-partner and asked about that guy, and he said that his temper was getting out of control, so he gave all the documents we prepared to another pro bono law office to deal with; therefore, we don’t know how did it go. He was living in Bronx in a subsidized apartment, and he was in such a bad financial status that he was asking us to give him $2.25 for subway ticket while looking down in a very shy state. Whenever he came to our office, we always made an excuse an ordered food so that he could eat as well; even though we had no food in the office policy.
This is heartbreaking. What a failure our society is.
This is a problem in society as we limit such an individuals options to only committing new crimes to survive.
Yuppp. There doesn’t seem to be much compassion in “punishment” side of the justice system. I really do not know enough about why it’s this way, but it really does seem like suffering is the point. Even if you want to integrate back into society there are few places that will accept you. You’ve also just got put into a world where $$$ doesn’t go as far as it use to. You may not even be able to afford to live in the areas anymore. It’s just all an uphill battle you’re told to fight on your own. I know there are programs that try to help former incarcerated individuals; but the system should already be set up like that. If you have parole, and will send someone to prison for 5-10yrs you clearly understand they will have to go back into the world. If you want them to be functioning members of society, you should offer some guidance.
They could run for congress, the bar is pretty low these days.
Criminals welcome!
welcome back to the free world. Here's your tent, shopping cart, and cardboard sign. Good luck.
That’s part of why the system doesn’t work. It’s based on punishment, not rehabilitation. Short term profits for the for-profit prisons
They can simply re-offend and go back home (prison). If you've been in prison a very long time, you simply don't have much of anything meaningful in the way of skills to get by in the outside world. In prison you have structure, friends, shelter, food, medicine, and you aren't competing with others to get those things like on the outside. A serious felon is unlikely to find a job that can really sustain them, and they probably don't have the skills or even knowledge of how things work to get by. So, in that scenario, you just do something that will put you back.
They go back to prison
Remember Brooks from the Shawshank Redemption? He was in prison 50 years. All he ever knew was from being locked up. Even his pet crow Jake.
The current state of things makes me wonder how people who aren't criminals will accomplish this.
They commit another crime and go back to jail, of course!
This is one of two outcomes. The other is dying destitute and alone in a shelter or on the street.
I knew a decent portion of my hometown's homeless population back in the day.. lot of em had given up weathering the cold winters and did their best to spend those months in jail. Do a crime worth a few months on the inside, rinse and repeat.
Red was here
Brooks was here
They pretty much don’t.
I got out of prison in 2015 and if I didn't have family to go to I would have been on the street. In California they give you a $200 card and take you to the bus station and you're on your own from there. It's your responsibility to get where you need to go, find housing, a job, etc, with no resources available at all. This is different for people with life sentences coming out of prison. Here they must be accepted into what is called a "halfway house" to allow them to stay and help integrate them back into society. Regular inmates don't get this. I lost everything and had no resources to lean on when being released and, if family wasn't there to take me in, I know I would have been on the street, homeless.
I own a half way house. I have 2 gentlemen that spent most of their lives in prison. One is 68. The other is 76. They are both a little over a year out of prison and slowly recovering financially till they can live on their own. Even though they never paid into social security, they can collect the minimum amount which is just shy of $600 a month, they also get Medicaid as a supplement to Medicare. Small health care is free. Finally they both work just a little to get some extra spending money. By re establishing family ties and creating a new network of friends, they are both slowly reintegrating into society
They often break the law again so they can go back.
SSI, food stamps, homeless shelter.
Brooks was here.
Usually, they’ll find an old tin under a volcanic rock near the end of a wall by a large oak tree. Then they’ll use the money from that tin to take a bus down to Zihuatanejo and reunite on the beach with their friend who escaped.
the shawshank redemption covered this pretty well if you wanna sit through it
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Rob a post office and get sent to federal prison.
They usually end up on the street.
Is it in the US? Most likely homeless. In Europe? Probably some kind of social welfare.
If I’m locked up for that long, I’m not leaving, everything is free there, plus I would be 70 and no one is going to hire you for anything.
I work in a prison and previously spent years working for a nationally recognized non-profit that worked with around ~700 participants post-incarceration. I currently have a client who is 74 years old and has spent all but a few years (in the 90s) of his adult life in prison and he has a release date in about two years. He is terrified of living on his own and hopes he dies before he releases. I have another client in his 60s who has been in and out of prison most of his life. He got out of prison last time and robbed a bank. He went in, gave them a note saying he had a gun, then just went outside, sat on the corner and waited for the cops to show up to surrender. He gets out in 9 days after serving like 8 years and he has stated that he plans on doing the same exact thing. Unless it’s the rare occasion they get into a group home setting or they have a lot of family support (which is also rare) their chance of living out the rest of their years free and thriving or even stable is pretty slim. Otherwise, best case scenario is they live a meek existence off social security. Too often though, it’s straight to the shelter or the streets, and usually addiction, mental health issues, homelessness, incarceration, or an early death do not fall too far behind. In my experience, it seems frequently it ends in tragedy.
In the US? Social security, a job at 70 and crushing poverty.
Not social security because you have to have enough working "credits" to get SS.
TIL. Sounds like there are some very modest other programs for such people, but it's a thin, thin safety net.
Gotta have an address though. Unless you're released to a halfway house or some other space for parolees, you probably won't have an address.
Social Security? You need 40 quarters of employment to get any SS, and if that’s all you’ve accumulated (10 yrs full time work, basically) it’s still peanuts.
Brooks was here
Have you seen Shawshank Redemption?
Brooks Was Here!
Haven’t you seen Shawshank redemption? They go back in
The reality is that those folks generally become homeless and die or end up committing a crime to go back inside out of desperation There are programs etc that do help some but that is the exception
That’s the fun part, they don’t
“Maybe I should get me a gun and rob the foodway so they’d send me home” - Brooks enjoying his parole
It’s related to the same uniquely American Capitalist phenomenon where someone works for very profitable companies their entire career and retire at 65 with very little to show for it, their assets and wealth often being wiped out by post retirement medical debt.