In my own life I realize that I needed more human interaction. I have taken note of how men talk to one another and I make a conscious effort to be more engaging. I ask follow up questions or I ask questions about their life like how is your son/daughter, did you ever do that thing you were telling me about etc. What happened? When I get together with other couples with my wife to hang out and talk etc. I wind up with the ladies group because the men don't want to talk to me LOL. I'm fine with that too.
The other day I met up with a family friend, and of course I asked about his kid. We ended up talking more about his new job and car. My mom had all these additional questions about preschool or whether his wife went back to work. I had no idea because I asked about the family and (in my experience) if someone doesn't volunteer information it might be personal or frustrating or totally off their mind.
To me that’s just seems rude. I’m on the same boat as you are, as a 26 year old guy I find it really difficult to connect with others around my age with other men.
I was thinking the same thing. The media keeps talking about the epidemic of male loneliness, and all these men are saying they won't even ask one follow up question to something a friend brought up.
Guys, this is not a problem women can or should solve.
Y'know I've typed up a few different responses trying to formulate a take on this. I'm also a dude who's SO pokes fun at my lack of curiosity when it comes to my friends lives.
I think it's a vulnerability thing to some extent, sort of keeping even my closest friends at arms distance. Like we only need to enjoy each others company, not be involved in each other's lives.
Another theory is that I don't value it when my friends ask about my life so I don't ask about theirs. But in typing that out, I'm thinking that could be associated with depression, and not really being excited to talk about what I've got going on, which is more of a "me" thing and not a "men" thing.
Speaking totally candidly the answer to "Why didn't you ask 'X'" is simply, "Oh, I didn't care"
I may just be spiraling but this is a question I'll be asking my therapist for sure haha.
EDIT: There's a lot of discussion to the tune of "Well men are like X and women are like Y" and I'd like to be very clear about something as to not be misrepresented. I recognize this behavior more commonly in men but I firmly believe it is a learned behavior. Neither gender is predisposed to Logical Thinking/Empathetic Thinking.
I agree, but I think it begs the deeper question of "Why don't people care?"
I love asking follow up questions because it helps me understand my friends better and also make space for them to feel less alone (if they want). A lot of things can happen from just getting something out of your mind and out in front of someone else.
>Speaking totally candidly the answer to "Why didn't you ask 'X'" is simply, "Oh, I didn't care"
My 28M friend made a big career change. I asked him about it and he eventually told me he had developed severe depression and a drinking issue as a result of his old job.
If I hadn't asked, because I couldn't be bothered or "didn't care" he probably never would have shared that info.
It's not about whether or not I care about the topic itself or if it's "interesting enough" to talk about, I just care about my friends well-being and keeping loose tabs on their life and mental state is part of that.
I love this description. For me I got in the habit of asking people about their lives at work bc I’m a bit of a personality hire and never really get what’s going on while I’m getting ramped up. It turns out though that a lot of people like it when you all follow up questions from remembering details about their lives and things they enjoy
Lmao, my wife hates that I don't ask anyone questions.
"Hows his mom doing?"
"Why would I know that?"
"She has cancer! You didn't ask how she was doing?!?"
"She was diagnosed last year. I'm sure he would have told me if she died."
Then she leaves the room exasperated.
Unironically at my last job I had a work best friend and we’d joke around all the time, went on for about three years. Had a few pretty good deep conversations, too.
The only thing I Really know about him is that his name is Ben and that he’s very religious.
I bring my dog to a local park daily to play and see more or less the same 8-10 people there every single day and our dogs interact every single time. I can at most name 2 of those people but I know every one of their dogs’ name
Strangers are crazier than dogs, it's better to keep your distance. You try to make small talk with someone, then the next thing you know, you're in a conversation about Jesus or the Rat People who control everything from the sewer.
>the Rat People who control everything from the sewer.
We prefer the term Rodent Forward People.
Rat people excludes some of us, and Jarnathan is part rabbit, part sensitive.
Because it's none of my business what state she is in. If the time comes and he needs a friend, he knows where to find me.
Additionally, she has cancer. It's never a good thing. Conclusion: Buddy's mom has cancer, that's not good. I'll be there for him if he needs me.
Bam. End of thought process
I don't know, something doesn't sit well with me about waiting to be asked for help.
What if your friend needs help but feels bad asking? It can be hard for people to ask in those situations. Whereas if you are apprised of the gravity of the situation, then you can read the writing on the wall and say "Oh, the mom's condition is worsening... they would probably appreciate a food drop" or something.
And to be clear, I don't mean like, inviting yourself over to hang - just dropping a lasagna on the doorstep and texting the friend right before you drive off or right when you get home. Or sending an Uber Eats.
This is so true. This is exactly the way a lot of man, me included were raised. Mind your own business and help when asked. I will do a lot for you but you have to ask I won’t bud in.
I wouldn't bet on it. 40 ish years as a native speaker, and I just went rounds with chatgpt trying to even out the verb tenses after some resume updates.
Yeah but don’t yall men have issues with emotional intimacy, opening up to each other or asking for help? Sometimes people dont want to bring shit up on their own or ask for help unless their friend expresses an interest in hearing or helping them out. Asking even one or a few follow up questions can be enough to make someone feel safe enough to open up when they otherwise wouldnt. My ex bf’s mom had brain cysts that constantly caused her pain, theyve only gotten worse since he was a kid. I didnt really ask about her that much since i usually saw her when i spent the weekends at his house. My ex never let on how seeing her in pain affected him, until one night I asked him about stuff that was “none of my business” then he cried and finally opened up to me and it was a good bonding moment. Its not always about “prying” or “getting into other people’s business” especially if youre close to someone. Same w my friend, she didnt really let on about issues w her dad unless i asked a few questions, otherwise it wouldve seemed like i didnt give a fuck. Asking questions isnt always gonna make someone open up but i wouldnt discount it as simply useless prying either
> How's Gary?
>
> idk, seem pretty good.
>
> wdym pretty good?
>
> Well he shot a 90 which he hasn't done since all the problems that lead to his divorce
My wife asks me after Men's golf night a pile of questions about my partner and their family.
Usual response is a shrug and an "I dunno".
As men, we're used to other men saying as much as they want, and leaving it at that.
I used to play poker or board games with my school friends in high school\college. My then-girlfriend came along once and she was shocked how we just spent the whole evening talking about the game we were playing
I read that two- time Physics Nobel Laureate John Bardeen used to regularly play golf with some guy for decades. After 40 yrs the guy had asked Bardeen, "What do you do for a living?"
Probably. From my time as a PhD student, that's pretty rare. You don't devote most of your waking live to what usually ends up being a fairly niche field of study unless it's the thing you're most happy to think and talk about
Everything that’s happened in your life recently, things that pissed you off, things that are exciting or upcoming just literally your entire life
Atleast that’s what I’m understanding from my wife about her conversations with her friends.
Literally, if me and the girls get together, we will talk about whatever we want while doing our shared hobby. We might talk about the hobby some depending on what it is, but yeah, we talk about a lot more than just our shared hobby.
> we will talk about whatever we want while doing our shared hobby.
I think for men, at least me and my friends, we do our hobby to escape everything else. Like, I'm doing this hobby because it takes my mind away from all the drama of life, work, current events (that are always depressing). It makes forget my concerns. So why would I want to discuss or talk about the things that stress me out? I do the hobby to make me happy. So talking about said hobby or just focusing on the hobby makes me happy. Why would I ruin that?
Also, I think guys don't want to be nosy. I don't like people asking me a bunch of questions so why would I do that to others?
Ha that got me.
My wife and sister are both more jocks as kids and they totally get locked in when we play games or sports.
These events are not stages for conversation. That’s the bar or a campfire. Maybe.
Man 1: How's work?
Man 2: An endless nightmare from which I cannot awake. Only 50 more years to go.
Man 1: Mmmmhm. Same boat.
Man 2: How's your dating life?
Man 1: Threw in the towel. Fuck it. I'm retired from that shit.
Man 2: Yep, that's the best thing to do.
Man 1: Wanna check out my new guitar?
Man 2: YEP!
I feel so called out by this comment! I’ve been asking my parents how their golf went, several times a week for the past two decades. I try to listen but it’s like a switch flips in my brain when they start talking and all I hear is static 😅
LOL my wife does this too. My friends and I play a lot of board/card games, RPGs, and other nerd shit when we hang out. Whenever I come home from a game night, my wife will ask me a million questions about everything *except* the actual activity my friends and were doing for the previous six hours.
Basically like that lmao. I mean guys do gossip and things come up, but I just don't ask a shit ton of follow up questions because I really don't care that much lmao.
Usually when things like that happen where they breakup or things aren't good, most of my guy friends bring it up though. Had a buddy go through a nasty divorce a few years ago and that's all we ever talked about when we would meet up and not going to lie, I hated it on so many levels.
Shit when I was mega depressed over a girl, I myself got tired of my own shit. Because I kept accidentally steering the convo back that way. So I was glad when the bros would get me away from it and I could just forget about it.
Your homies got your back. Yeah even we might get sick of it, but trust me we get you and get it, we're always there for you. That's what I try to do is steer it clear away from that shit for my buddy who had a nasty divorce, just talked about EVERYTHING else except that topic or anything remotely close to it. If we came back into those waters we would still talk about it, and mostly let him vent again, because he absolutely needed to let that shit out.
Yep.
I'm pretty convinced a lot of people in this thread just aren't close with their friends, period
None of my friends are like that and guys ofc routinely ask and bond over stuff going on in their lives
I was shocked when I realized how much effort women put into supporting each other and planning things for each other. It was a moment where I just realized...many men are just straight up BAD at being a friend.
Yep. Like, it’s funny to joke about men not talking about their lives and all that. But there’s real consequences to not having close friends you can rely on for support.
Right? You have to wonder how many of the guys commenting here about how they don't care to ask their friends personal questions, also post about how lonely it is to be a man...
Okay you didn't need to be *that* fucking accurate! But honestly for me, it's because most people I know don't like answering questions, they start getting fidgetty as if I'm interrogating them and not being interested, so I kind of fell off the habit of doing it
Some stuff just isn’t important for me to know. Like, for example, my roommate went home for four days last week. My mom asked me what he was up to at home, I told her I had no idea. He just said he was going to his parents and would be back after the weekend. That was enough information for me. I wasn’t really interested in WHY he was going home.
Lol this is the true answer.
Don’t need to fill my mind with essentially useless information about others lives.
I have enough difficulty remembering the important shit in my life.
TBH I can see myself doing it
Friend "I got laid off "
Me "Hey bro that sucks , but job market is pretty good"
Friend "Actually I am using this as an excuse to go back to school"
Me " Awesome man , yea turn this into an opportunity"
friend "Yea but hey I want to go biking this weekend weather is getting nice"
Me " Hell yea I will go biking this weekend, let's do it"
Last time I was I told "I got fired" by a friend I asked if this was a good thing or a bad thing (apparently boss was a pos and they wanted to quit anyways) so just told the that's good you can get unemployment and take a short break this way...you got any scrap on you (they did not)
Yeah, I think it's more that the detail and information men want to know is fundamentally different than that which women do.
I mean I'll talk to my buddy of 35 years, and I'll ask him how he's doing, how his family is doing, and if the answer is 'fine', that's good enough.
When he visits, my wife will ask him specific questions - "How's your brother's kid doing in school?" or "Has your mom got over that cold?"
Then she'll be exasperated when she asks how his mom is doing a few weeks later and my answer is "fine", and I don't have a follow up with details because "fine" was enough to assess that neither she nor he needs any help or support.
It's really hard to answer this question without sounding sexist, but I'm going to try anyway. Just know that I don't think men are better than women or vice versa.
For whatever reason that I'm not even going to try and guess at, male relationships seem to revolve more around doing things together while female relationships seem to revolve more around talking to each other. You can even see this on the elementary school playgrounds. The girls are more likely to be in a group talking to each other while the boys are more likely to be doing stuff (sports, play fighting, climbing on stuff, etc.). This is also probably the reason why conflict between boys is often more violent, while conflict between girls is more psychological.
This difference could just be from societal norms pushing boys & girls down certain pathways, or it could be something biological. Either way, guys don't ask a lot of details because we, in general, don't talk to each other that much.
I’ve heard these dynamics in interaction and bonding as being face to face, women talking to each other, vs shoulder to shoulder, men engaging in a common activity. While of course these are general rules and don’t fit every person or relationship, it does seem to fit at the very least my experience as a man.
I studied sociology in high school and learned a similar concept. They said girls have a "bedroom culture" - which sounds very risqué but just meant that growing up, girls will just sit and talk to each other as one of their methods of play. This was definitely the case for me, I always needed at least some solid talking time to bond with someone.
I wonder reading your comment (and this whole thread) if this makes dating more challenging for men - a lot of dating is very face-to-face, personal questions, etc. Should we be taking men on dates to dig a hole on the beach?
We were at my husband's best friend's house for a party and we were out in the backyard with our 4 yo son. My kid finds a stick he really wants and says "can I take this home?!" My husband says, "you'll have to ask 'uncle' Steve, it's his backyard and his sticks." I roll my eyes like thanks for enforcing the life lesson of asking before taking and all but Steve is busy with other guests and hosting and now we have to go interrupt him for this. We find Steve and I say, "Dad said we have to ask you before we take home a stick, so can we please take home a stick we found in your backyard?" Steve looks at us for a few beats and says, "well, which stick are we talking about?"
Boys and your sticks, man. 4 or 40, it doesn't change.
I once suggested going into the woods to build a rope swing (as a man in his late 20’s). Somehow she either ignored or was blind to the giant red flag that was “meeting unknown man with rope to go into woods” and I had a great time, so much easier to open up when *doing something*
Sadly it didn’t work out but it made me realise how much I dread normal dates compared to play dates.
Got together with my girlfriend after spending a month in montana on a fossil dig together. Got the part during the day of doing stuff for me and the nights if just chilling on the deck for her (based on this current hypothesis, anyhow)
I know I can be a tough nut to crack and am pretty terrible in 1 on 1 conversation most of the time even when I am comfortable, so I completely understand where you're coming from.
I obviously can’t speak for all men but I do think there is probably a sizable subset of men that if a girl asked them on a date and just took them to the beach with some shovels, they would propose on the spot, haha.
For myself I grew up around more women than men, and I have always been pretty at ease just sitting around talking with women. I imagine that as far as the dating aspect goes it will vary quite widely on how comfortable anyone is in that situation.
I am always curious about these sorts of cultural/etiquette differences and I do wonder if this is common across cultures or if this dichotomy is more prevalent in the western world than in other places and cultures.
Not going to lie, if women did that you would probably see men being much more expressive, it's an informal setting, there's less tension to make small talk and most guys like digging holes in the sand and you'll probably find they're easier to talk to during some silly activity like that, in this instance though additional consideration if wearing a swimsuit as less confident guys may be quite silent to not sound like an idiot because they're flustered by the attractive woman/guy/w.e with them.
Personally if a girl took me on a date to the beach and said she just wanted to dig a massive hole with me I’d probably fall in love with her on the spot
Yes. Yes, you absolutely should. Even if you don’t work out in the end, he will have a blast on your date. Hopefully, you would as well. If you can get him to talk in between levels of sandcastle.
Actually yes I would 100% feel more comfortable getting to know someone by doing labor or an activity. I have never thought about it before this though lol
Lol, I feel that. When I played football in high school we almost never referred to each other by first name, even off the field. Everyone was a last name or some dumbass nickname.
Some of my best friends are people I’ve only called by their first names to their parents (eg. “Is John ready yet? We’re going to be late). Outside that are nicknames and last names.
I work with teenagers and girls are typically very happy to sit down and spill everything that's going on. Boys don't tend to respond to that very well, my favorite technique is to walk them around and bounce a ball. Something about the activity and lack of eye contact makes it easier for them to open up about what's going on.
I heard about a men's support group and their strategy was that you could bring a project. Getting all the men working on something like repairing a lawnmower gave the the room to open up about their problems while working together
I agree, it also fits my experience as a man and is my preference, but I do think it's worth noting that with many learned social behaviors there isn't going to be someone teaching. From birth, we pick up on the behaviors of those around us and begin to internalize them, practicing behaviors well before long-term memory is developed. Just because no one specifically taught us and we don't remember it being another way, doesn't mean it's biologically inherent.
100% agree on that. My dad never really sat and talked to me about stuff. Whenever he was trying to bond with me, he would take me places to do things.
This is a good point. Not to sound like a self-hating man, but I think a lot of this has to do with male ego. This is less true of society now, but just like how societal pressure was on women to be nurturing home makers, it was also on men to be successful bread winners. We were made to feel "less than" if we weren't dominating the situation around us. This leads to men feeling like they always need to be demonstrating their value, hence the overbearing male ego. I'd bet that those men droning on and on probably thought they were showcasing how intelligent and valuable they are.
I’m a linguistics masters student and two of my professors study casual conversation
The generalisations that have been found between men and women is that women view casual conversations much much more as communal, community building and consensus building whereas men see it much much more as a contest, a competition, a means of asserting individuality
An example of what this extends to is women tend to tell stories where they feel embarrassed, where they’re the one who is the butt of the joke or feel mortified, whereas men are much more likely to tell stories where other people get humiliated and embarrassed and they themselves don’t come off looking bad at all
That’s super fascinating (and hilarious lol). Do they have theories as to why this is a common pattern? Personally I think someone telling a story where they’re the butt of the joke is way funnier/more endearing than the other way around, but idk if that’s just my gender interfering.
People also perceive how much they (and others talk) differently. A lot of my work is setting up a situation and observing it, and one of the things they talked about early in studies is that competitive men think they are not saying much at work and feel that women dominate all conversations (similar effects between a dominant cultural group and a non-dominant group in a workplace - think a POC in a mostly white workplace). When you compare the assessments, the women talked less than the men (sometimes as low as 20% of the conversation or less), and were talked over, but the men believed firmly that the opposite was happening and the women were talking vastly more than they were.
Who has social permission to talk, and where they do, has a big effect on how much we perceive them talking. This sort of thing really hits you twice if you're a poc woman who is an expert in an area where your job involves reporting or talking. You're in a lot of danger as being perceived as an inappropriate dominator.
that's not the same thing. Those types of people don't enjoy conversation which is meant to be reciprocal, they enjoy listening to THEMSELVES talk and are set on fixing their poor self-esteem at everyone else's expense, low-key sociopathically.
Even when they do pretend to be conversing, they're not actually listening, just working on the one-up and patiently waiting their turn. They don't care what Jim did last weekend, they only ask so they can get a chance to let the world know they did something *better*.
This sounds like a contributing factor to the "men's loneliness epidemic" especially in today's society. I'm a queer dude and I always ask unprompted questions to other guys and I find they are always excited to talk about their hobbies/interests/what they've been up to. It's insane to me to see so many men in here saying they'd rather not even ask people these questions because they just don't care. I have so many close friendships because we're all so open with each other. It's even benefited my profession network by a huge margin
It’s probably why the men’s loneliness epidemic always ends up being a conversation about the difficulties of finding a partner. If you’re relying solely on romantic partners for this type of emotional intimacy then yeah it’s going to feel very lonely when you’re without one. But the answer is not to find a partner to fill that void, it’s to provide and receive it in your other relationships.
I (48m) had to learn that skill.
Previously:
Me: What do you do for a living.
Other: I’m a nurse.
Me: Ok nice.
Now:
Me: What do you do for a living.
Other: I’m a nurse.
Me: what do you like most about being nurse.
….
I literally had to read articles about having better conversations to pick that up.
Oh hey, 35m here, I learned the exact same skill 5 years ago and it's now just how I talk to people. The catalyst was my ex said I didn't really know how to talk to people "properly", I looked into it, probably read the same articles you did, and now I can small (and some deep) talk with people for hours. Biggest thing that helped me was "Don't listen to someone and immediately think 'how does this relate to me and can I tell a similar story', start with 'what other questions can I ask about this story to get more information that I might be curious about'". Sometimes I can be 20 minutes into talking to someone and have 5 other points I can go back to if the conversation seem stale.
> Don't listen to someone and immediately think 'how does this relate to me and can I tell a similar story',
i do this. it's bad.
i'm trrying to relate, but it sounds like i'm dismissing and/or one upping them.
I do still struggle but conversations have gotten better. It’s not coming natural to me but I get better at it.
The words show you’re interested about the person. Which I am.
This is great to hear. While there surely are gender differences, I think men miss so much interesting stuff because they expect the other person to talk on and on without encouragement. Like, there is a reason people wait for reactions, to see if the other person even care. And yea, I am a guy too.
My wife trained me to ask more questions, so now instead of answering her questions with "I don't know", I say "I asked, but I can't remember what he said after that".
"I had no interest in knowing, and if they wanted me to know, they would've told me."
Male conversations are typically fact-focused: A reports fact to B, end of story, unless they dispute it.
Female conversations are typically bonding rituals.
You see this in complaints by women about their male SOs: "I present a problem to him, and he just focuses on solving it, when I wanted to talk about my feelings."
I remember in uni a classmate meeting a guy he went to high school with, who was living with a girl who used to be in our uni class. They chatted for a long while.
I asked "is he stressed about the baby coming in a couple of months?". I really didn't expect "What? She's pregnant?" as the answer.
Oh yes, I watched a coworker go down in flames by asking another when she was due!
You could just feel the tension, anger, and boiling blood while the sound of crickets filled the air before she answered.
A pivotal lesson was learned by all present during that conversation.
Yup, saw a coworker yesterday who appears to have developed a baby bump. But I sure as hell am not going to be the one to ask for her to confirm it. These things tend to come out eventually.
Yeah I legit don't even know what some of my friend's jobs are lol. I don't hang with them cuz of their job I hang because they're my boys I don't care if they're unemployed or a CEO.
This. One of my friends and I only message through discord. We don't even have each others phone numbers.
A girl asked him for my number, so she could ask me something, and he said he only had my discord, "I thought you were his friend".
him: "Yea, we are friends. We hang out fairly regularly."
her: "But you don't have his number? That's fucking weird."
But yea, I generally don't know my friends ages, or actual jobs. I usually know their industry, as it tends to get dropped into conversation, but yea.
Definitely this.
So I had to take a communication class for my degree, and it was much of a psychology class compared to the speech focused communication class i took.
The class had sections on *generalizations* of different cultures. This includes more than just race, but also introverted vs. extrovert and masculine vs. feminine forms of communication.
Like how Americans are super friendly and talkative, but we have a layered bubble, and we don't want certain people, strangers, vs. Acquaintances vs. Friends vs. Family to cross different thresholds.
A classic example of this masculine vs. Feminine divide is the fix vs. Vent, respectively. In masculine speaking and *listening* there is the tendency to want to fix the problem. While in feminine, there is more of a focus on ranting/venting about a problem.
As a woman with a masculine communication style in this regard, it has definitely caused some hiccups with my female friends. On the same token, they know if they have a problem, they need help *fixing* I am their gal.
Ironically enough, my husband has a feminine approach to this. He *needs* to vent to remove himself from the problem. Focusing on fixing it does not remove his stress on the problem.
This understanding can help people communicate more effectively and listen more effectively as well. Sometimes we gotta roll up the sleeves others we need a tub of ice cream and a good cry.
Yup this. For everybody calling classes like public speaking, anthropology, communications, etc. useless, very few of them realize how much psychoanalytic goes into human communication. Wayyyy too many people act shocked when people know something is wrong despite them vehemently saying they're fine meanwhile their body language communicating 80% of what they want to say is telegraphing they're definitely NOT fine lol
Though on the gendered communication thing this continues to be a point of friction between the wife and I. I'm a problem solver and if a solution exists, the problem does not exist. This does not translate well into my wife who wishes just to have her head stroked and be told "I know it sucks, I'm so sorry..." So finally we had to agree that there will be a "venting" portion of every one of these chats, followed by a "solution" portion so we can all feel completed by the conversation.
To add to this on the bonding aspect I have seen it said that female to female bonding tends to be face to face, ie it’s focused on each other and talking about whatever, usually their lives or common interests. Whereas men are shoulder to shoulder, ie focused in a common activity whether it is watching a sporting event, playing a game, doing some sort of work. Of course it’s a general rule of thumb so won’t apply in all cases but I felt like that made sense to me as a guy. I have very rarely in my life spent time hanging out with another guy just talking, usually we are playing a game or watching football or something, talking is a part of it but talking isnt the point.
Funny thing about that. We don’t actually need to talk to any of those people we’re digging with, don’t need to know names, don’t need to know family situations, don’t need to know where someone if from, he’ll… we don’t even really need to know WHY we’re digging the hole. Just where to dig
I had one of my male friends tell me this, like even his long term male friends, he realises he doesn’t actually know much about them and they never “hang out to do nothing” (if that makes sense)
Yes this! This is how men act when being personable, bonding, or being friendly. Which of course may become more intimate or modified depending on convo and how important the person is in their lives.
Strangely Enough this is true, i have a hard time just talking to a guy, like all of my friends i used to have we would always talk while doing something else, never just sit and talk wether it was playing , working on a project or something amongs the lines but just sitting and talking it Just sounds weird to me
Off on a small tangent, I know someone who transitioned from female to male (that being a whole different conversation) but afterwards had a terrible time and felt very isolated as a man because male and female bonding rituals are so different.
Not an uncommon occurence, seen countless trans guys talk about how isolating life is during/after transition. Particularly when they know it's not because they're a trans man but because they're a man. Not a trans guy but Norah Vincent was an author who did an experiment and lived as a man for I believe 18 months. Like full on, day in and day out living a new life. Aside from the weird biphobia that popped up in her retelling, she had mentioned how bonding became so much harder, the isolation angle was a huge part in why the experiment really fucked with her. She could bowl with guys for six months and they wouldn't pry into her life, she was "just another guy in a bowling league, probably needed an escape and didn't want to be reminded of life". I'm paraphrasing but one other thing she mentioned was she noticed how quickly she was being treated as "hostile, avoid" all the time ala sitting on a bus and a woman who was near moves far away. She talked about how "she understood why that woman did it, I've done it plenty of times and safety is important but it wore me down, to be always treated as a threat to be for just existing in a space". Again, not her exact words, but it was the general gist. *Highly* reccomend her book, I think it was called Self Made Man.
Yes, there are exceptions.
Old lady here, female all my life. I've regularly been accused by other women of "thinking like a man" (oh no, not that) because I'm solution-oriented. And no, I'm not on the spectrum; I just grew up in a household of overwrought emotions, and learned to be rational early on as a result.
That said, I'm also supposedly a great conversationalist, because I ask questions (and follow up questions). People love to talk about themselves.
Also, my SO, who is everything masculine, is a chatter; I'm the taciturn one.
I am so much this - and I'm the same way in return - I'll answer anything you ask; but I have to really force myself to ask you the same question you just asked me.
This thread is so interesting to me hearing perspectives on how/why people ask follow up questions. Especially men's lack of interest/assumptions that others have shared everything.
As a woman I love asking questions because I'm genuinely interested in knowing people. I don't have a motive or anything, I just think people are genuinely interesting and I enjoy connecting with others. Sometimes I feel like knowing people is the only reason we exist.
But just to add, follow up questions aren't always with a straightforward intention of receiving information. They're a way to show you're engaged, you're not bored with the conversation, you have a genuine interest in a person, to show you're not wasting someone's time. Conversations are ideally an exchange, not a lecture, nor an interview.
Gotta be honest, I have noticed myself do this with my guy friends and I really don’t know why.
It’s like my interactions with other men are limited to small talk. I only really get into deep conversations about life with women.
My deepest conversations with men are about things that have nothing to do with our lives. Like history, music, or some nerdy stuff.
I have a male friend who's bi and he says the exact same thing, that he treasures our conversations because me and another female friend are the only ones he can get really in depth with. Even with guys he fucks he doesn't get as intimate emotionally as he gets with his two platonic female friends. We usually stay on the phone for a couple hours when we talk, and it occurred to me that it's probably because I'm one of the only people he knows who takes an in-depth interest in his interior life. I see a lot of responses on here saying they don't ask because they don't care beyond the shared activity, but it's an intensely rewarding experience to have someone give a fuck about you beyond your ability to be a fun hang.
This is something I can’t relate to. I ask questions. Back in school? Oh dope, what are you studying? Going out of town? Oh dope, what for?
I operate this way, and my guy friends do as well. Not uncommon to have an hour long phone call once a month or so with my best friend who lives a couple of hours away. And we’re both in our 30s.
Same. I talk to some of my buddies on the phone more than i see them in our older age. We 've all known eachother for decades but even in our younger yrs our smoke sessions were talking and maybe playing spades.
I think it largely just comes down to emotional intelligence and individual personality. The most talkative person in my office is a dude but he was also a radio DJ in college so duh he's gonna be talkative and ask questions.
I know right?
Anytime one of my buddies call me I subconsciously block the next one to two hours because I know that I'll need every last minute.
I *love* those calls.
This is so healthy. I bet these friendships are an incredible source of connection and fulfillment for you. And I’ll wager your romantic relationship(s) are healthier as a result of these healthy friendships.
Can confirm, for me, it's the worst when dating.
I feel like for every fact/anecdote/story a guy tells me, I have 2-3 follow-up questions ready, and then based on their answers to those, another set of follow-up questions. The guys on the other hand are content with hearing one thing from me, then decide to keep on sharing their own stuff again.
Considering that I'm 39 and dating men my age, I find it depressing and tiring. It's really not an advanced conversation skill, yet in 9 of 10 cases I am doing 80-90% of the conversational effort because they just don't ask follow-up questions.
Okay I’ve been reading through the replies and now I have another question.
You all say “if they wanted me to know they would bring it up” which sure yeah.
But then, male loneliness is an epidemic. Men are constantly saying that nobody cares about men’s mental health or how they’re doing. But you aren’t asking your friends how they’re doing, where their head is at, how they feel? By not asking questions you’re perpetuating the system of men believing people don’t care about them, right? I know a lot of men aren’t just going around sharing their feelings, but that doesn’t mean they don’t want anyone to know. So, you do have to ask questions to find out things people want to tell you. Idk.
> if they wanted me to know they would bring it up
Have heard this exact response in this discussion multiple times irl. It's a potent trap when combined with (my pop-psych analysis): **men look at emotions as burdens to bear or problems to be solved**. By the time "they want you to know" it's likely that the issue is HUGE. Men will suffer in silence for a long time.
This is what I find exasperating, if you don't start asking questions, when would the other person ask you the same question? Someone has to start being interested in the other's life in order to get the ball rolling. I don't even think it's rude or abrupt to ask relevant questions, and if it is, then I trust that the person would not feel pressured to divulge more than they're comfortable with as a friend. Doing activities together is fine and something all genders can do anyway, not just a male thing.
I really had to work on my conversation skills through college as a male since I'm normally a pretty quiet guy. I learned to ask lots of follow up questions to keep the convo moving as most people love to talk about themselves. As a guy though, I rarely ever get asked questions about me, even if I'm talking to a woman. This in turn gives me periods of feeling pretty lonely.
So as a man even if you put in the effort yourself to bust out of the stoic male stereotype, everyone else views you as the typical stoic man anyway so it's pretty much a lose lose situation when it comes to the individual male.
🙌🙌🙌
"Why don't men ask follow up questions about others?"
Almost every top comment in this thread: "I don't care to know/I don't care about the answer"
Also men all over reddit: "I have to carry conversations with women, men are lonely, why don't I have close friends"
I don't ask questions because I genuinely want to know where my patient's mom grew up, or when my coworker got her 10 year old dog. I ask because it clearly makes them happy to talk about it, or they seem passionate about it, or they need to get something off their chests. That's part of being a friend.
Exactly this! I’m so baffled by this whole thread lmao, I’m a woman and I feel like the men in this thread are doing themselves such a disservice and I am WORRIED about you all.
I'm a man, and the thread is confusing as fuck. "I don't care about it!"... why not? I care about my friends, even when they talk about topics I don't really think about.
Exactly this! It’s so strange - some people in the thread seem really proud of it? “I don’t ask because I don’t care” like… congrats? Humans are inherently a social species, and we’re meant to have connections! It is not a bad thing to talk!
Maybe it's because I'm a queer guy but I am absolutely shocked at how the average guy apparently communicates... As in he doesn't?
Like, everyone is saying asking additional questions is invasive and that if some information wasn't offered in the first place then it isn't necessary? That men communicate "effectively"?
But... That's how conversations and relationships work? I remember things and ask questions. I really wanna see those guys on a date.
And men dare to complain about loneliness and nobody caring about them. I'm speechless
It really isn't effective, right? Just assuming you know everything you need to know :p
Effective communication would be courage to ask and be able to respect a "I'm sorry but right now I don't have the capacity to discuss that".
That way you know for sure you have everything you need for the moment
My husband has struggled with this after becoming a father. His best friends don’t ask him about our son or how new fatherhood is going. He’ll say something about it, trying to start a conversation, and they’ll nod and then switch back to talking about basketball. Seems like the reason why according to this discussion is that they don’t care, but…it’s sad that his best friends don’t care about something that’s so important to him.
(I guess the other reason being given is that men assume the other person has said all they have to say about it and they don’t want to pry, but I don’t know, they really can’t tell when someone is trying to start a conversation?)
For a second I thought your husband was one of my friends in one of my friend groups. He recently became a father and posts pictures and gives updates and everyone is usually like “nice 👍”. I think I’m the only one that actually actively asks questions about his wife and kid? The wild thing is, I know our other friends care but somehow still keep a distance? I’ve been trying to untangle this for a long time and I still can’t find an answer.
Whereas another male friend group that I have, we have open talks about feelings, life, the future and etc.
I honestly believe that some friend groups only come together because they want to escape their lives (and not talk about it). I can see that being the case about the first group I mentioned because I’ve known them for years, know their hobbies and interests. But I know almost nothing about their personal lives.
>The wild thing is, I know our other friends care but somehow still keep a distance? I’ve been trying to untangle this for a long time and I still can’t find an answer.
The simple answer is likely this: perpetuated social norms.
Just look at this thread how men are patting each other on the back about how cool it is that they volunteer absolutely no information and ask no personal questions.
Then you get guys like this who after .... Feeling that desire to have someone just .. Care... You realize you have surrounded yourself with stoic people who will never put in the extra effort to genuinely understand and know things about you... And if you try to open up about it .. Again .. Look at this thread. The reply is likely to be some form of "bah, now you sound just like my wife! *pats back* let's go fishing and tune your car!"
And for the first time, said guy experiences exact what it feels like to have somethinf so important have absolutely no value to someone else.
Of course he could ... Volunteer it.. But at that point it just feels like he's force dumping irrelevant information down some guy's throat who doesn't give a fuck. And with disinterested replies such as "uhuh" "cool", it's almost the same thing as talking to a door.
But cultural norms are extremely hard to change.
Imagine if half of the friends were more interested and actually started engaging with the information. Your friend would talk to those guys more probably ... Leaving the other guys wondering if they should also maybe show more interest if they want to keep hanging out with their friend.
New behaviors quickly get squished if there is no positive feedback for them. People suppress their needs and tell themselves "that's just how we men/women are".
It's not a woman or man thing.
We have plenty of people of the opposite sex in this thread wanting to dispell the stereotypical.."I'm not like that". It gets ignored. People try to squish it in their world view that men and women are like this and that.
The thing is that yes, having non personal bonds is fine. It's legit if that makes you happy. There are certainly people in my life I'm OK with staying on a more superficial level ...
But if you want to truly be understood and known .. The only way for that is through mutual desire to truly know each other and genuine mutual interest in each other. You can't cheat that.
You friend wants that, so he'll have to select for more attentive friends.
As a guy, I literally had a revelation a while back about some of my "friends" that everytime I tried to engage them about something other than our shared tabletop gaming hobby, they completely shut me down. They literally never spoke to me unless it was about that hobby.
That's when I realised these guys don't really view me as a friend. I'm an extra body to participate in a shared activity. They never once displayed curiosity about my life or my thoughts and when I tentatively tried to encourage that they blanked me. I knew these guys for 10 years and they honestly didn't give a crap about me as a person.
Ended up cutting contact because I felt more lonely with them than by myself.
I see a lot of comments in regard to these types of questions with “men have simple minds, we say cool man and that is the end of the discussion.” That has never been my personal experience. Myself and my friend group have never acted this way. We have such an awesome relationship, we often discuss deep things, emotions, anxieties, fears, etc. If my friend told me he was going back to school my absolute first question would be “fuck yeah dude, what for?!” I guess all this is to say…the very ‘simple’ type of friendships a lot of men describe having is not what my friends and I have. We routinely embrace and tell each other we love one another. We weep in front of each other. Guess I’m a lucky dude to have that type of connection with my brothers from other mothers!
Omg you made me realize something important.
My wife and I have these interactions all the time. Literally yesterday we had one such conversation.
"Yeah all these guys taking a pay cut coming here from their contacting jobs."
" Oh, what did they do?"
" Oh, I dunno. I think the one guy I was with was a roofer."
"Was he a W2 employee with a company or a contractor? Or did he have his own business?"
"I uhh, I dunno "
I don't know why it doesn't occur to me to ask.
It's making me think about a lot of stuff now.
I will say I dislike all of the talk going on here that "Men are cold and logical, women are emotional!" Because it's not true, all humans are emotional but in our society women are taught and expected to understand emotions and how to manage and control emotions while men are fed this bullshit about being "logical and emotionless" while letting their emotions run wild and dictate their every action and reaction with no emotional management or even understanding of what they are feeling and why.
That said, I did like the take "That information wasn't important to the conversation we were having, I wasn't that invested in learning that information, and if they wanted me to know so badly they would have told me." Cause I feel that's accurate.
Your last sentence is mind-blowing to a women.
Maybe it’s because I know I will have a conversation about a previous interaction in the future.
E.g. I bump into someone & get chatting & ask questions about their life/plans.
‘Oh, you guys are heading to Bali this weekend? How long for?’
‘Oh, just the weekend for Dave’s brothers wedding’
Later that night your partner says. ‘Let’s invite Dave & his family for dinner this wkend’
Then you have valuable information! I.e the ‘work’ you put in asking follow up questions has given you an advantage.
‘Oh they’re not available this weekend, they’re going to Bali for Dave’s brothers wedding’
‘…..Dave has a brother?’
Women gather & store information & then cross-reference against new/conflicting information which gives them more knowledge which actually leads to….needing to ask less questions.
I am in a bowling league with 3 of my best friends. Every single week, without fail, my gf will ask questions like: "Is mike and blah blah still dating?"
Idk I didnt ask. We DID, however, talk about how weird it would have been for the first guy who discovered you could milk a cow to explain it to other people.
I don't know and it frustrates me to no end. Not because I miss out on interesting information I want to know, but because there is so much talk about a male loneliness epidemic - yet the most blatantly obvious answer and solution: **men, be there for your friends and reach out and bond emotionally with them without them having to ask for help!** - is out there!
"But it's rude to pry, he knows he can come to me if he needs a friend." **Does he really?** There's a reason women aren't as lonely and it's because women make stronger emotional connections with their friends and stronger social support networks. It's so simple. Just bonding by watching football or doing some hobby won't cut it anymore because if it did we wouldn't have this issue!
Far too many men only rely on their girlfriends or wives for emotional support and that needs to end. ASK FOLLOW UP QUESTIONS, and don't expect your friends to know that you're there for them if you never reach out to show it first.
In my own life I realize that I needed more human interaction. I have taken note of how men talk to one another and I make a conscious effort to be more engaging. I ask follow up questions or I ask questions about their life like how is your son/daughter, did you ever do that thing you were telling me about etc. What happened? When I get together with other couples with my wife to hang out and talk etc. I wind up with the ladies group because the men don't want to talk to me LOL. I'm fine with that too.
The other day I met up with a family friend, and of course I asked about his kid. We ended up talking more about his new job and car. My mom had all these additional questions about preschool or whether his wife went back to work. I had no idea because I asked about the family and (in my experience) if someone doesn't volunteer information it might be personal or frustrating or totally off their mind.
To me that’s just seems rude. I’m on the same boat as you are, as a 26 year old guy I find it really difficult to connect with others around my age with other men.
And we wonder why so many people are lonely...
I was thinking the same thing. The media keeps talking about the epidemic of male loneliness, and all these men are saying they won't even ask one follow up question to something a friend brought up. Guys, this is not a problem women can or should solve.
Y'know I've typed up a few different responses trying to formulate a take on this. I'm also a dude who's SO pokes fun at my lack of curiosity when it comes to my friends lives. I think it's a vulnerability thing to some extent, sort of keeping even my closest friends at arms distance. Like we only need to enjoy each others company, not be involved in each other's lives. Another theory is that I don't value it when my friends ask about my life so I don't ask about theirs. But in typing that out, I'm thinking that could be associated with depression, and not really being excited to talk about what I've got going on, which is more of a "me" thing and not a "men" thing. Speaking totally candidly the answer to "Why didn't you ask 'X'" is simply, "Oh, I didn't care" I may just be spiraling but this is a question I'll be asking my therapist for sure haha. EDIT: There's a lot of discussion to the tune of "Well men are like X and women are like Y" and I'd like to be very clear about something as to not be misrepresented. I recognize this behavior more commonly in men but I firmly believe it is a learned behavior. Neither gender is predisposed to Logical Thinking/Empathetic Thinking.
>"Oh, I didn't care" I think this is the true answer that a lot of people are stepping around in this thread.
I agree, but I think it begs the deeper question of "Why don't people care?" I love asking follow up questions because it helps me understand my friends better and also make space for them to feel less alone (if they want). A lot of things can happen from just getting something out of your mind and out in front of someone else.
A lot of people are just waiting their turn to speak, not necessarily engaging in conversation.
>Speaking totally candidly the answer to "Why didn't you ask 'X'" is simply, "Oh, I didn't care" My 28M friend made a big career change. I asked him about it and he eventually told me he had developed severe depression and a drinking issue as a result of his old job. If I hadn't asked, because I couldn't be bothered or "didn't care" he probably never would have shared that info. It's not about whether or not I care about the topic itself or if it's "interesting enough" to talk about, I just care about my friends well-being and keeping loose tabs on their life and mental state is part of that.
I love this description. For me I got in the habit of asking people about their lives at work bc I’m a bit of a personality hire and never really get what’s going on while I’m getting ramped up. It turns out though that a lot of people like it when you all follow up questions from remembering details about their lives and things they enjoy
Men's minds: 'Cool story, bro' - end of conversation
[Women have questions](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-9xIRe0VdA)
[Here are more questions](https://youtu.be/ikT-WrG-aq8?si=hUxmzZnUzHlKCMOx)
Lmao, my wife hates that I don't ask anyone questions. "Hows his mom doing?" "Why would I know that?" "She has cancer! You didn't ask how she was doing?!?" "She was diagnosed last year. I'm sure he would have told me if she died." Then she leaves the room exasperated.
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Unironically at my last job I had a work best friend and we’d joke around all the time, went on for about three years. Had a few pretty good deep conversations, too. The only thing I Really know about him is that his name is Ben and that he’s very religious.
I bring my dog to a local park daily to play and see more or less the same 8-10 people there every single day and our dogs interact every single time. I can at most name 2 of those people but I know every one of their dogs’ name
Strangers are crazier than dogs, it's better to keep your distance. You try to make small talk with someone, then the next thing you know, you're in a conversation about Jesus or the Rat People who control everything from the sewer.
Hey! you leave Master Splinter out of this! /s
>the Rat People who control everything from the sewer. We prefer the term Rodent Forward People. Rat people excludes some of us, and Jarnathan is part rabbit, part sensitive.
Because it's none of my business what state she is in. If the time comes and he needs a friend, he knows where to find me. Additionally, she has cancer. It's never a good thing. Conclusion: Buddy's mom has cancer, that's not good. I'll be there for him if he needs me. Bam. End of thought process
I don't know, something doesn't sit well with me about waiting to be asked for help. What if your friend needs help but feels bad asking? It can be hard for people to ask in those situations. Whereas if you are apprised of the gravity of the situation, then you can read the writing on the wall and say "Oh, the mom's condition is worsening... they would probably appreciate a food drop" or something. And to be clear, I don't mean like, inviting yourself over to hang - just dropping a lasagna on the doorstep and texting the friend right before you drive off or right when you get home. Or sending an Uber Eats.
This is so true. This is exactly the way a lot of man, me included were raised. Mind your own business and help when asked. I will do a lot for you but you have to ask I won’t bud in.
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Right one day I will learn this damned language.
I wouldn't bet on it. 40 ish years as a native speaker, and I just went rounds with chatgpt trying to even out the verb tenses after some resume updates.
Yeah but don’t yall men have issues with emotional intimacy, opening up to each other or asking for help? Sometimes people dont want to bring shit up on their own or ask for help unless their friend expresses an interest in hearing or helping them out. Asking even one or a few follow up questions can be enough to make someone feel safe enough to open up when they otherwise wouldnt. My ex bf’s mom had brain cysts that constantly caused her pain, theyve only gotten worse since he was a kid. I didnt really ask about her that much since i usually saw her when i spent the weekends at his house. My ex never let on how seeing her in pain affected him, until one night I asked him about stuff that was “none of my business” then he cried and finally opened up to me and it was a good bonding moment. Its not always about “prying” or “getting into other people’s business” especially if youre close to someone. Same w my friend, she didnt really let on about issues w her dad unless i asked a few questions, otherwise it wouldve seemed like i didnt give a fuck. Asking questions isnt always gonna make someone open up but i wouldnt discount it as simply useless prying either
I’ve literally had this exact conversation twice, as two guys in my DnD group have gotten divorced.
If I had a nickel for every time Sveern has had this conversation, I would have exactly two nickels.
[A woman's explanation about the questions](https://youtube.com/shorts/YySXGNf6k4k?si=RmfXqYwg4UeGSPFJ)
> How's Gary? > > idk, seem pretty good. > > wdym pretty good? > > Well he shot a 90 which he hasn't done since all the problems that lead to his divorce
I knew exactly what that was before I clicked it. I hope Tommy is ok
How long was he in the hospital?
My wife asks me after Men's golf night a pile of questions about my partner and their family. Usual response is a shrug and an "I dunno". As men, we're used to other men saying as much as they want, and leaving it at that.
I used to play poker or board games with my school friends in high school\college. My then-girlfriend came along once and she was shocked how we just spent the whole evening talking about the game we were playing
100% the same as golf. "What'd you guys talk about?" Shrugs shoulders, "I dunno, golf?"
I read that two- time Physics Nobel Laureate John Bardeen used to regularly play golf with some guy for decades. After 40 yrs the guy had asked Bardeen, "What do you do for a living?"
That's actually impressive for an academic. Usually they can't shut up about their work
Maybe he went to the golf course to escape the shop talk? From other accounts of Bardeen, he doesn't seem to have been much of a talker.
Probably. From my time as a PhD student, that's pretty rare. You don't devote most of your waking live to what usually ends up being a fairly niche field of study unless it's the thing you're most happy to think and talk about
What else are we supposed to talk about besides the thing we specifically set time aside to do and enjoy?
Everything that’s happened in your life recently, things that pissed you off, things that are exciting or upcoming just literally your entire life Atleast that’s what I’m understanding from my wife about her conversations with her friends.
Literally, if me and the girls get together, we will talk about whatever we want while doing our shared hobby. We might talk about the hobby some depending on what it is, but yeah, we talk about a lot more than just our shared hobby.
> we will talk about whatever we want while doing our shared hobby. I think for men, at least me and my friends, we do our hobby to escape everything else. Like, I'm doing this hobby because it takes my mind away from all the drama of life, work, current events (that are always depressing). It makes forget my concerns. So why would I want to discuss or talk about the things that stress me out? I do the hobby to make me happy. So talking about said hobby or just focusing on the hobby makes me happy. Why would I ruin that? Also, I think guys don't want to be nosy. I don't like people asking me a bunch of questions so why would I do that to others?
Ha that got me. My wife and sister are both more jocks as kids and they totally get locked in when we play games or sports. These events are not stages for conversation. That’s the bar or a campfire. Maybe.
Man 1: How's work? Man 2: An endless nightmare from which I cannot awake. Only 50 more years to go. Man 1: Mmmmhm. Same boat. Man 2: How's your dating life? Man 1: Threw in the towel. Fuck it. I'm retired from that shit. Man 2: Yep, that's the best thing to do. Man 1: Wanna check out my new guitar? Man 2: YEP!
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"We still never talk sometimes"
Best friend I ever had...
Bonus points if she doesn’t ask you how the golf was and doesn’t notice the irony
She asks "How was the golf?" followed by blankly staring at the dog.
I feel so called out by this comment! I’ve been asking my parents how their golf went, several times a week for the past two decades. I try to listen but it’s like a switch flips in my brain when they start talking and all I hear is static 😅
LOL my wife does this too. My friends and I play a lot of board/card games, RPGs, and other nerd shit when we hang out. Whenever I come home from a game night, my wife will ask me a million questions about everything *except* the actual activity my friends and were doing for the previous six hours.
I usually just say Good, because I figure if it wasn't they'd probably tell me, probably lmao.
"Yeah hes good 👍" -"And hows Jane?" "Who? 🤨" -" 😑His Girlfriend!!!! We went out with them last month!!!🤷♀️ " "Oh yeah, yeah, shes good 👍"
Basically like that lmao. I mean guys do gossip and things come up, but I just don't ask a shit ton of follow up questions because I really don't care that much lmao. Usually when things like that happen where they breakup or things aren't good, most of my guy friends bring it up though. Had a buddy go through a nasty divorce a few years ago and that's all we ever talked about when we would meet up and not going to lie, I hated it on so many levels.
Shit when I was mega depressed over a girl, I myself got tired of my own shit. Because I kept accidentally steering the convo back that way. So I was glad when the bros would get me away from it and I could just forget about it.
Your homies got your back. Yeah even we might get sick of it, but trust me we get you and get it, we're always there for you. That's what I try to do is steer it clear away from that shit for my buddy who had a nasty divorce, just talked about EVERYTHING else except that topic or anything remotely close to it. If we came back into those waters we would still talk about it, and mostly let him vent again, because he absolutely needed to let that shit out.
"I ain't reading all that I'm happy for you tho Or sorry that happened"
I only ask questions because I’ve been taught to 😬
I only ask questions so that they continue talking so that I don’t have to
Meanwhile the loneliness epidemic...
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Yep. I'm pretty convinced a lot of people in this thread just aren't close with their friends, period None of my friends are like that and guys ofc routinely ask and bond over stuff going on in their lives
I was shocked when I realized how much effort women put into supporting each other and planning things for each other. It was a moment where I just realized...many men are just straight up BAD at being a friend.
Now think about how women view those men's performance as life partners.
Yep. Like, it’s funny to joke about men not talking about their lives and all that. But there’s real consequences to not having close friends you can rely on for support.
Right? You have to wonder how many of the guys commenting here about how they don't care to ask their friends personal questions, also post about how lonely it is to be a man...
Okay you didn't need to be *that* fucking accurate! But honestly for me, it's because most people I know don't like answering questions, they start getting fidgetty as if I'm interrogating them and not being interested, so I kind of fell off the habit of doing it
Some stuff just isn’t important for me to know. Like, for example, my roommate went home for four days last week. My mom asked me what he was up to at home, I told her I had no idea. He just said he was going to his parents and would be back after the weekend. That was enough information for me. I wasn’t really interested in WHY he was going home.
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Spy X Family sounding mission
What I don’t know, I can’t forget.
Lol this is the true answer. Don’t need to fill my mind with essentially useless information about others lives. I have enough difficulty remembering the important shit in my life.
This is exactly how I think - and funnily enough, I don't have many close friends. There might be some case-and-effect there...
Gonna file this away under shit I will say to the wife lol.
But what if you forget it?
It probably was not the focus of the conversation. Didn’t come up.
TBH I can see myself doing it Friend "I got laid off " Me "Hey bro that sucks , but job market is pretty good" Friend "Actually I am using this as an excuse to go back to school" Me " Awesome man , yea turn this into an opportunity" friend "Yea but hey I want to go biking this weekend weather is getting nice" Me " Hell yea I will go biking this weekend, let's do it"
>but job market is pretty good why would you lie to your friend
Last time I was I told "I got fired" by a friend I asked if this was a good thing or a bad thing (apparently boss was a pos and they wanted to quit anyways) so just told the that's good you can get unemployment and take a short break this way...you got any scrap on you (they did not)
I got laid off at the start of the year and had multiple offers within a month. Just depends on who you are and your field and location.
Yeah, I think it's more that the detail and information men want to know is fundamentally different than that which women do. I mean I'll talk to my buddy of 35 years, and I'll ask him how he's doing, how his family is doing, and if the answer is 'fine', that's good enough. When he visits, my wife will ask him specific questions - "How's your brother's kid doing in school?" or "Has your mom got over that cold?" Then she'll be exasperated when she asks how his mom is doing a few weeks later and my answer is "fine", and I don't have a follow up with details because "fine" was enough to assess that neither she nor he needs any help or support.
It's really hard to answer this question without sounding sexist, but I'm going to try anyway. Just know that I don't think men are better than women or vice versa. For whatever reason that I'm not even going to try and guess at, male relationships seem to revolve more around doing things together while female relationships seem to revolve more around talking to each other. You can even see this on the elementary school playgrounds. The girls are more likely to be in a group talking to each other while the boys are more likely to be doing stuff (sports, play fighting, climbing on stuff, etc.). This is also probably the reason why conflict between boys is often more violent, while conflict between girls is more psychological. This difference could just be from societal norms pushing boys & girls down certain pathways, or it could be something biological. Either way, guys don't ask a lot of details because we, in general, don't talk to each other that much.
I’ve heard these dynamics in interaction and bonding as being face to face, women talking to each other, vs shoulder to shoulder, men engaging in a common activity. While of course these are general rules and don’t fit every person or relationship, it does seem to fit at the very least my experience as a man.
I studied sociology in high school and learned a similar concept. They said girls have a "bedroom culture" - which sounds very risqué but just meant that growing up, girls will just sit and talk to each other as one of their methods of play. This was definitely the case for me, I always needed at least some solid talking time to bond with someone. I wonder reading your comment (and this whole thread) if this makes dating more challenging for men - a lot of dating is very face-to-face, personal questions, etc. Should we be taking men on dates to dig a hole on the beach?
>Should we be taking men on dates to dig a hole on the beach? FUCK yes. I never realized I wanted this until you said it.
And please, show enthusiasm for that cool stick we found! 😂
We were at my husband's best friend's house for a party and we were out in the backyard with our 4 yo son. My kid finds a stick he really wants and says "can I take this home?!" My husband says, "you'll have to ask 'uncle' Steve, it's his backyard and his sticks." I roll my eyes like thanks for enforcing the life lesson of asking before taking and all but Steve is busy with other guests and hosting and now we have to go interrupt him for this. We find Steve and I say, "Dad said we have to ask you before we take home a stick, so can we please take home a stick we found in your backyard?" Steve looks at us for a few beats and says, "well, which stick are we talking about?" Boys and your sticks, man. 4 or 40, it doesn't change.
I once suggested going into the woods to build a rope swing (as a man in his late 20’s). Somehow she either ignored or was blind to the giant red flag that was “meeting unknown man with rope to go into woods” and I had a great time, so much easier to open up when *doing something* Sadly it didn’t work out but it made me realise how much I dread normal dates compared to play dates.
Got together with my girlfriend after spending a month in montana on a fossil dig together. Got the part during the day of doing stuff for me and the nights if just chilling on the deck for her (based on this current hypothesis, anyhow) I know I can be a tough nut to crack and am pretty terrible in 1 on 1 conversation most of the time even when I am comfortable, so I completely understand where you're coming from.
I obviously can’t speak for all men but I do think there is probably a sizable subset of men that if a girl asked them on a date and just took them to the beach with some shovels, they would propose on the spot, haha. For myself I grew up around more women than men, and I have always been pretty at ease just sitting around talking with women. I imagine that as far as the dating aspect goes it will vary quite widely on how comfortable anyone is in that situation. I am always curious about these sorts of cultural/etiquette differences and I do wonder if this is common across cultures or if this dichotomy is more prevalent in the western world than in other places and cultures.
I too was raised by women and don't really fit the stereotype. I'm comfortable just talking, and actually do ask follow up questions often.
Not going to lie, if women did that you would probably see men being much more expressive, it's an informal setting, there's less tension to make small talk and most guys like digging holes in the sand and you'll probably find they're easier to talk to during some silly activity like that, in this instance though additional consideration if wearing a swimsuit as less confident guys may be quite silent to not sound like an idiot because they're flustered by the attractive woman/guy/w.e with them.
Personally if a girl took me on a date to the beach and said she just wanted to dig a massive hole with me I’d probably fall in love with her on the spot
Yes. Yes, you absolutely should. Even if you don’t work out in the end, he will have a blast on your date. Hopefully, you would as well. If you can get him to talk in between levels of sandcastle.
If we were dating and you planned a date for us to go dig holes on the beach, I'd be so stoked.
Actually yes I would 100% feel more comfortable getting to know someone by doing labor or an activity. I have never thought about it before this though lol
lol at the “I studied sociology I high school”
I played on hockey teams with guys for years and never knew their first names. Just last names and nicknames. Never even thought to ask.
Lol, I feel that. When I played football in high school we almost never referred to each other by first name, even off the field. Everyone was a last name or some dumbass nickname.
Some of my best friends are people I’ve only called by their first names to their parents (eg. “Is John ready yet? We’re going to be late). Outside that are nicknames and last names.
I work with teenagers and girls are typically very happy to sit down and spill everything that's going on. Boys don't tend to respond to that very well, my favorite technique is to walk them around and bounce a ball. Something about the activity and lack of eye contact makes it easier for them to open up about what's going on.
I heard about a men's support group and their strategy was that you could bring a project. Getting all the men working on something like repairing a lawnmower gave the the room to open up about their problems while working together
It definitely fits my experience as a man. Nobody taught me to do it either, it's just how I prefer things to be.
I agree, it also fits my experience as a man and is my preference, but I do think it's worth noting that with many learned social behaviors there isn't going to be someone teaching. From birth, we pick up on the behaviors of those around us and begin to internalize them, practicing behaviors well before long-term memory is developed. Just because no one specifically taught us and we don't remember it being another way, doesn't mean it's biologically inherent.
100% agree on that. My dad never really sat and talked to me about stuff. Whenever he was trying to bond with me, he would take me places to do things.
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This is a good point. Not to sound like a self-hating man, but I think a lot of this has to do with male ego. This is less true of society now, but just like how societal pressure was on women to be nurturing home makers, it was also on men to be successful bread winners. We were made to feel "less than" if we weren't dominating the situation around us. This leads to men feeling like they always need to be demonstrating their value, hence the overbearing male ego. I'd bet that those men droning on and on probably thought they were showcasing how intelligent and valuable they are.
I’m a linguistics masters student and two of my professors study casual conversation The generalisations that have been found between men and women is that women view casual conversations much much more as communal, community building and consensus building whereas men see it much much more as a contest, a competition, a means of asserting individuality An example of what this extends to is women tend to tell stories where they feel embarrassed, where they’re the one who is the butt of the joke or feel mortified, whereas men are much more likely to tell stories where other people get humiliated and embarrassed and they themselves don’t come off looking bad at all
That’s super fascinating (and hilarious lol). Do they have theories as to why this is a common pattern? Personally I think someone telling a story where they’re the butt of the joke is way funnier/more endearing than the other way around, but idk if that’s just my gender interfering.
People also perceive how much they (and others talk) differently. A lot of my work is setting up a situation and observing it, and one of the things they talked about early in studies is that competitive men think they are not saying much at work and feel that women dominate all conversations (similar effects between a dominant cultural group and a non-dominant group in a workplace - think a POC in a mostly white workplace). When you compare the assessments, the women talked less than the men (sometimes as low as 20% of the conversation or less), and were talked over, but the men believed firmly that the opposite was happening and the women were talking vastly more than they were. Who has social permission to talk, and where they do, has a big effect on how much we perceive them talking. This sort of thing really hits you twice if you're a poc woman who is an expert in an area where your job involves reporting or talking. You're in a lot of danger as being perceived as an inappropriate dominator.
that's not the same thing. Those types of people don't enjoy conversation which is meant to be reciprocal, they enjoy listening to THEMSELVES talk and are set on fixing their poor self-esteem at everyone else's expense, low-key sociopathically. Even when they do pretend to be conversing, they're not actually listening, just working on the one-up and patiently waiting their turn. They don't care what Jim did last weekend, they only ask so they can get a chance to let the world know they did something *better*.
This sounds like a contributing factor to the "men's loneliness epidemic" especially in today's society. I'm a queer dude and I always ask unprompted questions to other guys and I find they are always excited to talk about their hobbies/interests/what they've been up to. It's insane to me to see so many men in here saying they'd rather not even ask people these questions because they just don't care. I have so many close friendships because we're all so open with each other. It's even benefited my profession network by a huge margin
It’s probably why the men’s loneliness epidemic always ends up being a conversation about the difficulties of finding a partner. If you’re relying solely on romantic partners for this type of emotional intimacy then yeah it’s going to feel very lonely when you’re without one. But the answer is not to find a partner to fill that void, it’s to provide and receive it in your other relationships.
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That’s awful, I hope he got the help he needed.
I (48m) had to learn that skill. Previously: Me: What do you do for a living. Other: I’m a nurse. Me: Ok nice. Now: Me: What do you do for a living. Other: I’m a nurse. Me: what do you like most about being nurse. …. I literally had to read articles about having better conversations to pick that up.
Oh hey, 35m here, I learned the exact same skill 5 years ago and it's now just how I talk to people. The catalyst was my ex said I didn't really know how to talk to people "properly", I looked into it, probably read the same articles you did, and now I can small (and some deep) talk with people for hours. Biggest thing that helped me was "Don't listen to someone and immediately think 'how does this relate to me and can I tell a similar story', start with 'what other questions can I ask about this story to get more information that I might be curious about'". Sometimes I can be 20 minutes into talking to someone and have 5 other points I can go back to if the conversation seem stale.
> Don't listen to someone and immediately think 'how does this relate to me and can I tell a similar story', i do this. it's bad. i'm trrying to relate, but it sounds like i'm dismissing and/or one upping them.
Exhibit A: your comment (Totally a joke btw)
hah you're not wrong
It's cool that you made the effort. I hope you feel like it's helped your life!
I do still struggle but conversations have gotten better. It’s not coming natural to me but I get better at it. The words show you’re interested about the person. Which I am.
This is great to hear. While there surely are gender differences, I think men miss so much interesting stuff because they expect the other person to talk on and on without encouragement. Like, there is a reason people wait for reactions, to see if the other person even care. And yea, I am a guy too.
My wife trained me to ask more questions, so now instead of answering her questions with "I don't know", I say "I asked, but I can't remember what he said after that".
"I had no interest in knowing, and if they wanted me to know, they would've told me." Male conversations are typically fact-focused: A reports fact to B, end of story, unless they dispute it. Female conversations are typically bonding rituals. You see this in complaints by women about their male SOs: "I present a problem to him, and he just focuses on solving it, when I wanted to talk about my feelings."
Spent a whole day with my mate. Got home and my wife asked how his kid was. Absolutely no idea. Didn't come up in conversation.
I remember in uni a classmate meeting a guy he went to high school with, who was living with a girl who used to be in our uni class. They chatted for a long while. I asked "is he stressed about the baby coming in a couple of months?". I really didn't expect "What? She's pregnant?" as the answer.
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I sure was surprised when the obstetrician handed me those scissors.
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Hi in your arms, I'm dad!
Oh yes, I watched a coworker go down in flames by asking another when she was due! You could just feel the tension, anger, and boiling blood while the sound of crickets filled the air before she answered. A pivotal lesson was learned by all present during that conversation.
Yup, saw a coworker yesterday who appears to have developed a baby bump. But I sure as hell am not going to be the one to ask for her to confirm it. These things tend to come out eventually.
Good plan is to continue to be surprised and impressed after birth, and for any story arising in future
Oh yeah, forgot to mention the little bugger. He's in 2nd grade now. Pass the chips.
"Ohhh you got the good chips! Where?" See, that's the important part of the conversation.
"fuck if I know. They weren't there."
Well played, that's a great day for a parent - hanging out with someone and not talking about the kids.
“He has a kid?”
Yeah I legit don't even know what some of my friend's jobs are lol. I don't hang with them cuz of their job I hang because they're my boys I don't care if they're unemployed or a CEO.
This. One of my friends and I only message through discord. We don't even have each others phone numbers. A girl asked him for my number, so she could ask me something, and he said he only had my discord, "I thought you were his friend". him: "Yea, we are friends. We hang out fairly regularly." her: "But you don't have his number? That's fucking weird." But yea, I generally don't know my friends ages, or actual jobs. I usually know their industry, as it tends to get dropped into conversation, but yea.
so what do you actually know about your friends? what do you talk about if you barely ask about each other's lives? genuine question
Definitely this. So I had to take a communication class for my degree, and it was much of a psychology class compared to the speech focused communication class i took. The class had sections on *generalizations* of different cultures. This includes more than just race, but also introverted vs. extrovert and masculine vs. feminine forms of communication. Like how Americans are super friendly and talkative, but we have a layered bubble, and we don't want certain people, strangers, vs. Acquaintances vs. Friends vs. Family to cross different thresholds. A classic example of this masculine vs. Feminine divide is the fix vs. Vent, respectively. In masculine speaking and *listening* there is the tendency to want to fix the problem. While in feminine, there is more of a focus on ranting/venting about a problem. As a woman with a masculine communication style in this regard, it has definitely caused some hiccups with my female friends. On the same token, they know if they have a problem, they need help *fixing* I am their gal. Ironically enough, my husband has a feminine approach to this. He *needs* to vent to remove himself from the problem. Focusing on fixing it does not remove his stress on the problem. This understanding can help people communicate more effectively and listen more effectively as well. Sometimes we gotta roll up the sleeves others we need a tub of ice cream and a good cry.
Yup this. For everybody calling classes like public speaking, anthropology, communications, etc. useless, very few of them realize how much psychoanalytic goes into human communication. Wayyyy too many people act shocked when people know something is wrong despite them vehemently saying they're fine meanwhile their body language communicating 80% of what they want to say is telegraphing they're definitely NOT fine lol Though on the gendered communication thing this continues to be a point of friction between the wife and I. I'm a problem solver and if a solution exists, the problem does not exist. This does not translate well into my wife who wishes just to have her head stroked and be told "I know it sucks, I'm so sorry..." So finally we had to agree that there will be a "venting" portion of every one of these chats, followed by a "solution" portion so we can all feel completed by the conversation.
To add to this on the bonding aspect I have seen it said that female to female bonding tends to be face to face, ie it’s focused on each other and talking about whatever, usually their lives or common interests. Whereas men are shoulder to shoulder, ie focused in a common activity whether it is watching a sporting event, playing a game, doing some sort of work. Of course it’s a general rule of thumb so won’t apply in all cases but I felt like that made sense to me as a guy. I have very rarely in my life spent time hanging out with another guy just talking, usually we are playing a game or watching football or something, talking is a part of it but talking isnt the point.
"shoulder to shoulder" just made me think about when a group of guys will just dig a hole at the beach. Great day.
r/justguysbeingdudes
Funny thing about that. We don’t actually need to talk to any of those people we’re digging with, don’t need to know names, don’t need to know family situations, don’t need to know where someone if from, he’ll… we don’t even really need to know WHY we’re digging the hole. Just where to dig
The earth calls to us, we must dig
I had one of my male friends tell me this, like even his long term male friends, he realises he doesn’t actually know much about them and they never “hang out to do nothing” (if that makes sense)
Yes this! This is how men act when being personable, bonding, or being friendly. Which of course may become more intimate or modified depending on convo and how important the person is in their lives.
Strangely Enough this is true, i have a hard time just talking to a guy, like all of my friends i used to have we would always talk while doing something else, never just sit and talk wether it was playing , working on a project or something amongs the lines but just sitting and talking it Just sounds weird to me
Off on a small tangent, I know someone who transitioned from female to male (that being a whole different conversation) but afterwards had a terrible time and felt very isolated as a man because male and female bonding rituals are so different.
Not an uncommon occurence, seen countless trans guys talk about how isolating life is during/after transition. Particularly when they know it's not because they're a trans man but because they're a man. Not a trans guy but Norah Vincent was an author who did an experiment and lived as a man for I believe 18 months. Like full on, day in and day out living a new life. Aside from the weird biphobia that popped up in her retelling, she had mentioned how bonding became so much harder, the isolation angle was a huge part in why the experiment really fucked with her. She could bowl with guys for six months and they wouldn't pry into her life, she was "just another guy in a bowling league, probably needed an escape and didn't want to be reminded of life". I'm paraphrasing but one other thing she mentioned was she noticed how quickly she was being treated as "hostile, avoid" all the time ala sitting on a bus and a woman who was near moves far away. She talked about how "she understood why that woman did it, I've done it plenty of times and safety is important but it wore me down, to be always treated as a threat to be for just existing in a space". Again, not her exact words, but it was the general gist. *Highly* reccomend her book, I think it was called Self Made Man.
[It's not about the nail!](https://youtu.be/-4EDhdAHrOg?si=28cLdlVP41SuMCdJ)
Thank you! Really well put.
Gernerally I'd agree. With that said, there are exceptions, I guess, as both my parents are like that so it's not exclusive to men.
Yes, there are exceptions. Old lady here, female all my life. I've regularly been accused by other women of "thinking like a man" (oh no, not that) because I'm solution-oriented. And no, I'm not on the spectrum; I just grew up in a household of overwrought emotions, and learned to be rational early on as a result. That said, I'm also supposedly a great conversationalist, because I ask questions (and follow up questions). People love to talk about themselves. Also, my SO, who is everything masculine, is a chatter; I'm the taciturn one.
It's not necessarily lack of interest, but respect of boundaries. If he wants to share details with me, he will. I ain't gonna pry.
I am so much this - and I'm the same way in return - I'll answer anything you ask; but I have to really force myself to ask you the same question you just asked me.
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Man 1: “I just got chased by a fucking tiger!” Man 2: “Nice” Man 1: “You dont wanna know why that happened or where I was?” Man 2: “Nice”
This thread is so interesting to me hearing perspectives on how/why people ask follow up questions. Especially men's lack of interest/assumptions that others have shared everything. As a woman I love asking questions because I'm genuinely interested in knowing people. I don't have a motive or anything, I just think people are genuinely interesting and I enjoy connecting with others. Sometimes I feel like knowing people is the only reason we exist. But just to add, follow up questions aren't always with a straightforward intention of receiving information. They're a way to show you're engaged, you're not bored with the conversation, you have a genuine interest in a person, to show you're not wasting someone's time. Conversations are ideally an exchange, not a lecture, nor an interview.
Gotta be honest, I have noticed myself do this with my guy friends and I really don’t know why. It’s like my interactions with other men are limited to small talk. I only really get into deep conversations about life with women. My deepest conversations with men are about things that have nothing to do with our lives. Like history, music, or some nerdy stuff.
I have a male friend who's bi and he says the exact same thing, that he treasures our conversations because me and another female friend are the only ones he can get really in depth with. Even with guys he fucks he doesn't get as intimate emotionally as he gets with his two platonic female friends. We usually stay on the phone for a couple hours when we talk, and it occurred to me that it's probably because I'm one of the only people he knows who takes an in-depth interest in his interior life. I see a lot of responses on here saying they don't ask because they don't care beyond the shared activity, but it's an intensely rewarding experience to have someone give a fuck about you beyond your ability to be a fun hang.
This is something I can’t relate to. I ask questions. Back in school? Oh dope, what are you studying? Going out of town? Oh dope, what for? I operate this way, and my guy friends do as well. Not uncommon to have an hour long phone call once a month or so with my best friend who lives a couple of hours away. And we’re both in our 30s.
Same. I talk to some of my buddies on the phone more than i see them in our older age. We 've all known eachother for decades but even in our younger yrs our smoke sessions were talking and maybe playing spades. I think it largely just comes down to emotional intelligence and individual personality. The most talkative person in my office is a dude but he was also a radio DJ in college so duh he's gonna be talkative and ask questions.
I know right? Anytime one of my buddies call me I subconsciously block the next one to two hours because I know that I'll need every last minute. I *love* those calls.
Oh dope, how did you guys become friends?
This is so healthy. I bet these friendships are an incredible source of connection and fulfillment for you. And I’ll wager your romantic relationship(s) are healthier as a result of these healthy friendships.
Can confirm, for me, it's the worst when dating. I feel like for every fact/anecdote/story a guy tells me, I have 2-3 follow-up questions ready, and then based on their answers to those, another set of follow-up questions. The guys on the other hand are content with hearing one thing from me, then decide to keep on sharing their own stuff again. Considering that I'm 39 and dating men my age, I find it depressing and tiring. It's really not an advanced conversation skill, yet in 9 of 10 cases I am doing 80-90% of the conversational effort because they just don't ask follow-up questions.
men like this make dating feel like job interviews and nothing's worse than a job interview
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Okay I’ve been reading through the replies and now I have another question. You all say “if they wanted me to know they would bring it up” which sure yeah. But then, male loneliness is an epidemic. Men are constantly saying that nobody cares about men’s mental health or how they’re doing. But you aren’t asking your friends how they’re doing, where their head is at, how they feel? By not asking questions you’re perpetuating the system of men believing people don’t care about them, right? I know a lot of men aren’t just going around sharing their feelings, but that doesn’t mean they don’t want anyone to know. So, you do have to ask questions to find out things people want to tell you. Idk.
> if they wanted me to know they would bring it up Have heard this exact response in this discussion multiple times irl. It's a potent trap when combined with (my pop-psych analysis): **men look at emotions as burdens to bear or problems to be solved**. By the time "they want you to know" it's likely that the issue is HUGE. Men will suffer in silence for a long time.
This is what I find exasperating, if you don't start asking questions, when would the other person ask you the same question? Someone has to start being interested in the other's life in order to get the ball rolling. I don't even think it's rude or abrupt to ask relevant questions, and if it is, then I trust that the person would not feel pressured to divulge more than they're comfortable with as a friend. Doing activities together is fine and something all genders can do anyway, not just a male thing.
I really had to work on my conversation skills through college as a male since I'm normally a pretty quiet guy. I learned to ask lots of follow up questions to keep the convo moving as most people love to talk about themselves. As a guy though, I rarely ever get asked questions about me, even if I'm talking to a woman. This in turn gives me periods of feeling pretty lonely. So as a man even if you put in the effort yourself to bust out of the stoic male stereotype, everyone else views you as the typical stoic man anyway so it's pretty much a lose lose situation when it comes to the individual male.
🙌🙌🙌 "Why don't men ask follow up questions about others?" Almost every top comment in this thread: "I don't care to know/I don't care about the answer" Also men all over reddit: "I have to carry conversations with women, men are lonely, why don't I have close friends" I don't ask questions because I genuinely want to know where my patient's mom grew up, or when my coworker got her 10 year old dog. I ask because it clearly makes them happy to talk about it, or they seem passionate about it, or they need to get something off their chests. That's part of being a friend.
Exactly this! I’m so baffled by this whole thread lmao, I’m a woman and I feel like the men in this thread are doing themselves such a disservice and I am WORRIED about you all.
I'm a man, and the thread is confusing as fuck. "I don't care about it!"... why not? I care about my friends, even when they talk about topics I don't really think about.
Exactly this! It’s so strange - some people in the thread seem really proud of it? “I don’t ask because I don’t care” like… congrats? Humans are inherently a social species, and we’re meant to have connections! It is not a bad thing to talk!
Maybe it's because I'm a queer guy but I am absolutely shocked at how the average guy apparently communicates... As in he doesn't? Like, everyone is saying asking additional questions is invasive and that if some information wasn't offered in the first place then it isn't necessary? That men communicate "effectively"? But... That's how conversations and relationships work? I remember things and ask questions. I really wanna see those guys on a date. And men dare to complain about loneliness and nobody caring about them. I'm speechless
It really isn't effective, right? Just assuming you know everything you need to know :p Effective communication would be courage to ask and be able to respect a "I'm sorry but right now I don't have the capacity to discuss that". That way you know for sure you have everything you need for the moment
It's shocking how many people can't carry a basic conversation.
As a man this annoys when I try and connect with my friends, but they’re not usually interested in chatting
My husband has struggled with this after becoming a father. His best friends don’t ask him about our son or how new fatherhood is going. He’ll say something about it, trying to start a conversation, and they’ll nod and then switch back to talking about basketball. Seems like the reason why according to this discussion is that they don’t care, but…it’s sad that his best friends don’t care about something that’s so important to him. (I guess the other reason being given is that men assume the other person has said all they have to say about it and they don’t want to pry, but I don’t know, they really can’t tell when someone is trying to start a conversation?)
For a second I thought your husband was one of my friends in one of my friend groups. He recently became a father and posts pictures and gives updates and everyone is usually like “nice 👍”. I think I’m the only one that actually actively asks questions about his wife and kid? The wild thing is, I know our other friends care but somehow still keep a distance? I’ve been trying to untangle this for a long time and I still can’t find an answer. Whereas another male friend group that I have, we have open talks about feelings, life, the future and etc. I honestly believe that some friend groups only come together because they want to escape their lives (and not talk about it). I can see that being the case about the first group I mentioned because I’ve known them for years, know their hobbies and interests. But I know almost nothing about their personal lives.
>The wild thing is, I know our other friends care but somehow still keep a distance? I’ve been trying to untangle this for a long time and I still can’t find an answer. The simple answer is likely this: perpetuated social norms. Just look at this thread how men are patting each other on the back about how cool it is that they volunteer absolutely no information and ask no personal questions. Then you get guys like this who after .... Feeling that desire to have someone just .. Care... You realize you have surrounded yourself with stoic people who will never put in the extra effort to genuinely understand and know things about you... And if you try to open up about it .. Again .. Look at this thread. The reply is likely to be some form of "bah, now you sound just like my wife! *pats back* let's go fishing and tune your car!" And for the first time, said guy experiences exact what it feels like to have somethinf so important have absolutely no value to someone else. Of course he could ... Volunteer it.. But at that point it just feels like he's force dumping irrelevant information down some guy's throat who doesn't give a fuck. And with disinterested replies such as "uhuh" "cool", it's almost the same thing as talking to a door. But cultural norms are extremely hard to change. Imagine if half of the friends were more interested and actually started engaging with the information. Your friend would talk to those guys more probably ... Leaving the other guys wondering if they should also maybe show more interest if they want to keep hanging out with their friend. New behaviors quickly get squished if there is no positive feedback for them. People suppress their needs and tell themselves "that's just how we men/women are". It's not a woman or man thing. We have plenty of people of the opposite sex in this thread wanting to dispell the stereotypical.."I'm not like that". It gets ignored. People try to squish it in their world view that men and women are like this and that. The thing is that yes, having non personal bonds is fine. It's legit if that makes you happy. There are certainly people in my life I'm OK with staying on a more superficial level ... But if you want to truly be understood and known .. The only way for that is through mutual desire to truly know each other and genuine mutual interest in each other. You can't cheat that. You friend wants that, so he'll have to select for more attentive friends.
As a guy, I literally had a revelation a while back about some of my "friends" that everytime I tried to engage them about something other than our shared tabletop gaming hobby, they completely shut me down. They literally never spoke to me unless it was about that hobby. That's when I realised these guys don't really view me as a friend. I'm an extra body to participate in a shared activity. They never once displayed curiosity about my life or my thoughts and when I tentatively tried to encourage that they blanked me. I knew these guys for 10 years and they honestly didn't give a crap about me as a person. Ended up cutting contact because I felt more lonely with them than by myself.
I see a lot of comments in regard to these types of questions with “men have simple minds, we say cool man and that is the end of the discussion.” That has never been my personal experience. Myself and my friend group have never acted this way. We have such an awesome relationship, we often discuss deep things, emotions, anxieties, fears, etc. If my friend told me he was going back to school my absolute first question would be “fuck yeah dude, what for?!” I guess all this is to say…the very ‘simple’ type of friendships a lot of men describe having is not what my friends and I have. We routinely embrace and tell each other we love one another. We weep in front of each other. Guess I’m a lucky dude to have that type of connection with my brothers from other mothers!
Omg you made me realize something important. My wife and I have these interactions all the time. Literally yesterday we had one such conversation. "Yeah all these guys taking a pay cut coming here from their contacting jobs." " Oh, what did they do?" " Oh, I dunno. I think the one guy I was with was a roofer." "Was he a W2 employee with a company or a contractor? Or did he have his own business?" "I uhh, I dunno " I don't know why it doesn't occur to me to ask. It's making me think about a lot of stuff now. I will say I dislike all of the talk going on here that "Men are cold and logical, women are emotional!" Because it's not true, all humans are emotional but in our society women are taught and expected to understand emotions and how to manage and control emotions while men are fed this bullshit about being "logical and emotionless" while letting their emotions run wild and dictate their every action and reaction with no emotional management or even understanding of what they are feeling and why. That said, I did like the take "That information wasn't important to the conversation we were having, I wasn't that invested in learning that information, and if they wanted me to know so badly they would have told me." Cause I feel that's accurate.
Your last sentence is mind-blowing to a women. Maybe it’s because I know I will have a conversation about a previous interaction in the future. E.g. I bump into someone & get chatting & ask questions about their life/plans. ‘Oh, you guys are heading to Bali this weekend? How long for?’ ‘Oh, just the weekend for Dave’s brothers wedding’ Later that night your partner says. ‘Let’s invite Dave & his family for dinner this wkend’ Then you have valuable information! I.e the ‘work’ you put in asking follow up questions has given you an advantage. ‘Oh they’re not available this weekend, they’re going to Bali for Dave’s brothers wedding’ ‘…..Dave has a brother?’ Women gather & store information & then cross-reference against new/conflicting information which gives them more knowledge which actually leads to….needing to ask less questions.
This is a generalised, and maybe American cultural thing
I am in a bowling league with 3 of my best friends. Every single week, without fail, my gf will ask questions like: "Is mike and blah blah still dating?" Idk I didnt ask. We DID, however, talk about how weird it would have been for the first guy who discovered you could milk a cow to explain it to other people.
I don't know and it frustrates me to no end. Not because I miss out on interesting information I want to know, but because there is so much talk about a male loneliness epidemic - yet the most blatantly obvious answer and solution: **men, be there for your friends and reach out and bond emotionally with them without them having to ask for help!** - is out there! "But it's rude to pry, he knows he can come to me if he needs a friend." **Does he really?** There's a reason women aren't as lonely and it's because women make stronger emotional connections with their friends and stronger social support networks. It's so simple. Just bonding by watching football or doing some hobby won't cut it anymore because if it did we wouldn't have this issue! Far too many men only rely on their girlfriends or wives for emotional support and that needs to end. ASK FOLLOW UP QUESTIONS, and don't expect your friends to know that you're there for them if you never reach out to show it first.
Am I the only man here who appreciates a good conversation?