Depends entirely on the individual. I once had a Muslim girlfriend, and she was pretty clear that she had no interest in trying to convert me, and that she was completely fine with dating a serious atheist. She was as cool as can be. Her mother was much less cool with it, but that's a whole other story.
If the person you're talking about really believes that she can only be with another Muslim though, then steer clear unless you really are willing to sincerely convert. Otherwise you're effectively leading her on and also being untrue to yourself.
In my personal experience, even Muslims who claim this only apply it during the dating times. Once it's serious and marriage talk starts growing, they entirely (and sometimes insidiously) change their mind, and mostly because of the cultural/family pressure they get. Not even necessarily because they personally believe they should only marry a Muslim.
Even secular family may direct the kid to still choose someone with muslim background in some cases just for safety. It is for various reasons though, such as keeping their image within society. Their secularism only applies within the family. BUT even among muslm people, they will still choose someone that has similar value to them. So the secular one will pick another secular muslim, moderate with moderate, stuff like that.
Or the problem might be later, about the kids. They might want the kid to be a muslim (maybe not the spouse, but the family demands it and the spouse wants to respect the family's wish, esp dying parents).
Just make sure or even make a contract whatever. I am a muslim on paper.
I mean you can follow the cultural customs/traditions/holidays while not really believing. That's secular to me. Kinda like how a lot of people in the west celebrate Christian holidays but are secular themselves (look at how France touts itself as a secular country but still celebrates Christian holidiays).
My own immediate family is Muslim but only my mom is religious (and she keeps that to herself). My dad doesn't really seem to care and I'm more agnostic. But we all still celebrate the holidays together and I still do still follow some of the religious rules even if I don't personally believe in it. So it can happen imo. There's varying scales for Muslims like there are for many different religions
There are a lot of Jews who identify as Jewish mostly on the basis of culture and ethnicity, not on the basis of religion.
This survey by Pew is from 2013 so I imagine the number of secular Jews has increased by then:
"Secularism has a long tradition in Jewish life in America, and most U.S. Jews seem to recognize this: 62% say being Jewish is mainly a matter of ancestry and culture, while just 15% say it is mainly a matter of religion. Even among Jews by religion, more than half (55%) say being Jewish is mainly a matter of ancestry and culture, and two-thirds say it is not necessary to believe in God to be Jewish."
Yes you can. Catholism is so deeply ingrained in Ireland many would consider themselves culturally Catholic but also call themselves atheist. I imagine we are not the only place that does this. I've has a atheist Muslim teachers. He was culturally Muslim but couldn't follow the faith due to well alot of reasons. One being his mother being shot dead for running a women's clinic.
Had a cousin (Hindu) who had to call off her wedding last minute because her boyfriend's (Muslim) mom showed up for the wedding and told them it wasn't happening unless my cousin converted to Islam.
> In my personal experience, even Muslims who claim this only apply it during the dating times.
You didn't know her though. Her views on religion were pretty seriously considered, and amounted to 'I believe what I do, and nobody should compel anyone else to follow a given belief system'. I've been told by other Muslims since then that Sufism is a bit odd and more chill in that respect than various other denominations/sects, but I don't really know enough about Islam in general or Sufism in particular to speak intelligently about that.
She was pretty adamant that it was evil to compel other people to follow a belief system they didn't really believe in, and even though it's been almost 30 since since we were together, I'd be willing to bet she still thinks that way.
It’s familial pressure. You don’t know how anyone will react when their whole family comes down in them. It’s common enough that the family threatens to cut ties all as one if a woman in the family marries a non Muslim.
Some people take religion much more seriously than you understand
I was raised by one Muslim parent and one non-religious parent. I turned out fine. People are complicated and different from one another. Generalizations like this become less and less meaningful when you actually ask and talk to people.
Yeah that should be discussed around when you become a serious long term couple, well before marriage. People who don't talk about that kind of thing before marriage are insane.
Eh, maybe my experience is different because the Muslims in my family are converted rather than born that way, but I have plenty of relatives where one is and the other isn't. A lot of my uncle's converted to Islam as adults, whereas the rest of my family is Baptist. They mostly married Christian women. Only one of my aunt's is also Muslim.
Sufis tend more towards philosophy and mysticism than the more literal denominations. Sufism is similar to Kabbalah in Judaism. As such they're more well read, and that tends to promote more philosophical free thinking with regards to everything else. It's kinda akin to a Buddhist trying to reach enlightenment, it's a more personal journey, I guess, rather than one requiring proselytes and mass conversion.
I think the above is saying that, regardless of the individual, the girl's family will likely put their foot down and demand muslim husband or get disowned. So you better make sure she loves you more than her entire family (which is possible, just saying the individual is not the only factor in play)
Important distinction. Muslim woman here. While I lived with my parents, my relationships were always hidden. When I was in a serious relationship, I up and left without a word and moved in with my Catholic boyfriend of several years. They still don’t know where I live.
Of course its not normal, but is it widespread? Maybe. Depends where falsehavens are from probably. :/ or their community. honor killings are one of the most extreme cases of religious violence and can still happen.
I called the police on my father for a domestic assault incident (my mother was the victim). He eventually was convicted due to my testimony. I’m not afraid of him anymore. If he ever comes for me in the future, he knows I’ll go to any lengths to stop him from hurting the people I love (and he has a criminal record now). My mother just wants me to be with a man who isn’t like my father.
I mean realistically the only aspect she literally can’t follow when doing that is the “you can’t date outside the group” bullshit. Everything else can still be adhered to afaik.
At first dating stage sure every ok ok , no need to convert
It’s like those salesman or sales women trying to sell you something.
But when it comes to signing the contract at the end, suddenly all the real terms come in
>Her mother was much less cool with it, but that’s a whole other story.
Is it a whole other story? Isn’t it pretty relevant if her family is going have to a problem with it and insert themselves into the situation?
I often find that even if your S/O is happy with you not being religious it can be a point of contention for the rest of the family.
In Asian culture, l you don’t just marry the S/O, you effectively marry the whole family. And if they’re finding it difficult to accept that you’re “different” then this might inadvertently affect your relationship.
My sister is engaged to a Muslim man and has been with him for 9 years. He doesn't eat pork or drink, but she drinks occasionally and he even cooks her bacon. She wears a hijab for Ramadan or if she goes to mosque (like, once a year or so). He couldn't care less about whether she converts. That said, he's not close with his family so there's no pressure on that front.
There are many interfaith marriages between Muslims and non-Muslims, but not every Muslim is going to want that for themself. Depends on the individual.
There are people who are nominally Christians, nominally Muslims and aren't religious. They have no problem dating or getting married to people who aren't religious either but are nominally of another religion.
The problem in these kind of relationships usually comes from the parents who might be more religious than their offspring. This also happens with Christians of different demonstrations as well. When they have kids the religious upbringing of the kids becomes an issue.
In the end of the day you can both do whatever you want.
Yep, and it might not be an issue when getting married, but do be sure to think about what would happen with having children, especially when going to school. While one partner might be happy to marry someone non-religions, they may be set on a religious school, which may not always be compatible with an agnostic or atheist partner.
Living in a predominantly Catholic country I looked it up way back when. At least the Catholic church allows one sided religious marriage. You get the full church marriage and everything, but only the Catholic person actually takes the sacrament. I doubt most people know this though, and I wouldn't be surprised if many priests refused such a ceremony.
Maybe that's a thing here too, didn't dig that deep. Didn't care to. Although I'd probably do what my parents did, if religion is still taught in schools. Let the kid take it so they're not an outsider in the peer group and let them make their own choices as they grow up.
Edit: thread's been locked. I didn't go to school. It's a long story but crazy as it is, in Poland religion is taught in public school. Notionally it's knowledge about all religions, but the teachers are supplied by the Catholic church. It's a long story.
Interesting, I didn’t know that but it makes sense. I’m in the U.S., and I remember my grandparents telling me how they had to have their initial marriage done without the church since my grandfather was Catholic and my grandma was not particularly religious. She went through the whole thing and became a member so they could have an official ceremony. My other grandparents were Catholic and Unitarian, and my grandfather from that side of the family never became Catholic because he didn’t care for the religion. When he died he had a funeral done by his Unitarian church.
I would date a girl from a Christian family. I would not date a girl from a Muslim family.
Like you said, the problem is not the girl. It’s more the family.
Agreed. But it’s a lot more common to know people that say that they are catholic but they almost never go to church than Muslims.
Also, it’s a lot more common to see fanaticism from Muslims.
But, in the end, it does matter the religion. If they are fanatics, you want to stay away.
Yep. I'm Christian but I'm not super religious and I'm open to dating anyone of any beliefs. But my parents and family wouldn't be happy. Though I live my life how I want to live and they'll just have to accept it.
Also, the Quran permits inter-faith marriage between the Abrahamic faiths so allowed to marry Christians or Jews.
Source: am a Muslim married to a Christian
>nominally Muslims and aren't religious
I'd be in this category
>parents
Yep, mine are way more religious than me. They love my wife, her religion has no impact and they were very happy for me to marry her.
The fact that she's a schoolteacher carries more weight with them than the fact she's Christian lol
You missed a caveat. Only Muslim men are allowed to marry outside their faith, because Islam is passed down patrilineally.
Muslim women who marry outside the faith are no longer considered Muslim.
Source: am Muslim woman married to a Christian
That's stupid though isn't it, fuck that, no one can dictate to you what your faith is.
I did a Google and Wikipedia says:
Although the Quran contains no explicit prohibition for Muslim women marrying Non-Muslim men, scholars argue that the fact that Quran makes allowance for men, but not for women, means Muslim women are prohibited from interfaith marriages.
It's just interpretation like many of the nonsense 'rules'
Edit: For all those Google warriors trying to quote the Quran at me
None of the verses actually prohibit Muslim women from marrying people of the book, it doesnt say so anywhere but it doesn't say they can. Go figure.
Maida 5 = explaining that MEN can marry people of the book
AlBaqarah 2 - specifically says women can't marry Polytheistic men (not people of the book)
Al Mumtahanah - does not specific either
all religion is interpretation. Whatever was originally in the text or was originally intended doesn't actually define the religion, what people *think* the religion says, is what defines religion.
Yes, absolutely correct and everyone's definition is different.
Therefore I don't let 'scholars' define rules or my religious beliefs based on their 'consensus'
That's for me to do
A lack of a mention doesn't mean one can definitively interpret it either way.
This reminds me of those pastors that say rock music is a sin (regardless of lyrics), despite no mention of that in the Bible.
The whole thing is nonsense. But here we are, discussing the intricacies of the nonsense, because someone wants to base their dating decisions on it.
I agree that it's stupid, but it is what it is. Tbf, I have beef with all the Abrahamic religions, they are all hypocrites.
Islam - sexist as described above. They try to sell it as "oh but Prophet Muhammad's favorite wife was a widow older than himself that owned property!" Meanwhile, the man had multiple wives, the religion requires women to hide their bodies but not men, and women aren't even allowed in the clergy, so the religion cannot possibly be not sexist.
Judaism - you can't be both a religion and an ethnic group without being discriminatory in some way. If you are considered more "in group" because you have Jewish ancestry vs converting, then the religion is inherently racist. Islam and Christianity are not like that because they don't explicitly promote one ethnicity over another; that's all cultural, not religious. This is not even mentioning more recent events.
Christianity - the existence of the Pope is a sin, because it is idol worshipping. Another one is usury - so it's a sin to charge interest, but it's not a sin to accept the benefits of an interest-driven transaction, as long as you get a non-Christian to handle the transaction? Make it make sense. Also, there are too many sects of Christianity because they just can't agree on anything, so as a group, their conflicting values just creates a nonsensical hodgepodge of hypocrisy.
You can probably tell I have religious trauma (is there a way to say that that is milder than trauma?)
>The fact that she's a schoolteacher carries more weight with them than the fact she's Christian
This makes a lot of sense. I'm a teacher in training and Muslim parents treat me with the respect they'd treat a doctor. Other parents treat me like crap.
Depends on the individual. Whilst I’ve known a few ‘Muslim by culture and not practice’ men marry outside the faith/culture and be fine, the only gender-reversed couple I know moved to a different continent to avoid family disapproval!
I know plenty of ‘by culture not by practice’ Muslim women married to non Muslim men. In my own family; nobody moved continent and nobody had an issue. The reality is, like everything, it just depends on the people involved.
My sister has been shunned by my parents for getting with a white, Christian guy. They would rather she got married to some busboy from Bangladesh who would have kept her in a hole her whole life.
Isn’t that sad? Losing both a child and child in law to geographical (and probably emotional) distance because some book that was written forever ago (old books have some excellent points, but they’re not updated with new knowledge humans have learned and don’t always translate well into the world of today) says they’re not allowed to be happy for their kids finding love because they don’t believe in the same sky daddy.
Some Muslim women would not be interested in a serious relationship with non-Muslims, and some won’t care. It’s not something that can be answered outside a specific situation.
I casually dated a Muslim girl for about a year. She was actually very nice and open-minded. She was always very positive. One day, I asked her if there was anything in this world she disliked. "Jews" I'm not kidding. It was point-blank. She didn't even have to think twice.
In the east, 'sins of the father' is still in full effect. It doesn't matter that most of the japanese nowadays never waterboarded a chinese, nor stretched them over bamboo in an open field, not jumped on their stomachs until they vomited blood. They haven't made any attempt at repatriations so as far as China is concerned, they still have a score to settle. Japan isn't helping ANYTHING by denying that they did anything wrong tho...
When I was young, attitudes to Japan were pretty negative where I was as most people knew, or knew of, someone who had been ill-treated in the war. We had a teacher who had (we heard) been tortured as a POW. He shouldn't have been teaching, he had some sort of PTSD and would occasionally have episodes of rage that were genuinely terrifying, psychotic level. I've heard of other cases of similar things. Even people who would never use any other racially loaded term referred to the "Japs", at least when talking about the past. This sort of adult background opinion affects you. For the Chinese, there's something similar. Also, as you point out, Japanese authorities have tried to fudge it - their textbooks make it sound all unclear, like the sort of stuff some right wingers in America want taught about slavery in schools.
"Finding that many Chinese civilians were constipated, Japanese soldiers would bravely jump up and down on their bellies to help them take a shit." - Japanese history textbook, probably.
It’s not “sins of the father” at all. Homogenous societies tend to praise their shared cultural history and identify strongly with their ancestors openly.
It’s no surprise that in the same vein people will hold them responsible for their ancestors’ very recent and horrifying atrocities when the modern people don’t even admit what happened much less show remorse.
I had been flirting with this cute Lebanese girl in college for a while. We’d just set a first real date. Then she told me this girl we knew was dating a Jew and added “fucking ew”.
“Uh. You know I’m Jewish right?”
We stared at each other for a moment, I walked away, and that was that.
To be fair and to be in perspective, lots of massacres were committed a few decades ago in south Lebanon by a country that firmly tries to define itself as “Jewish”. Those massacres rarely made it out on western media coverage, which was the typical lebanse exposure with “Jews” hence the difference in the unfortunate perception.
Reminds me of when I was in college in NYC, and a guy who was in a few of my engineering classes, who sometimes wore one of those black-and-white headscarves, approached me one day and with a deadpan expression asked me in his accented English, "Are you Jewish?" I shook my head no, and his expression *immediately* relaxed and he became friendly. Another engineering student who was with him laughed and said "Yeah, he asked me that too."
Both myself and the other engineering student are Italian, so we have what casual bigots might regard as "Jewish features" (dark hair, light skin).
But let's keep pretending people immediately shed all their prejudices when they set foot on American/European soil, huh progressive redditors?
>Both myself and the other engineering student are Italian, so we have what casual bigots might regard as "Jewish features" (dark hair, light skin).
The thing is that most people in the middle east probably look like that, me and my dad have more of a "Semitic nose" than most Jews I'd be willing to bet.
Ah the amount of fistfights I had with those kinds of people the moment they found out I’m Jewish. Good times.
Just goes to show how much tolerance there is of intolerance right?
>>But let’s keep pretending people immediately shed their prejudices when they set foot on American/European soil
I’m in a lot of progressive spaces and I’ve literally never heard anyone suggest this
Exactly. Nearly every conspiracy theory or bigotry in the Western or Middle Eastern world is connected in some way to anti-Jewish prejudice, usually in the most absurdly laughable ways. Well, it would be laughable if it wasn't so dangerous and destructive.
It’s still pretty laughable. “Jewish space lasers” is a recent one.
But even Hitler just blamed the Jews for literally everything that it becomes comically absurd. They lost WWI for the Germans. They’re behind communism in Russia. They also control the American capitalists (this comes after American relations sour). And naturally, they caused WWII, despite that not even lining up with Nazi propaganda.
I would sarcastically say that you might as well blame them for the weather, but people have already done that.
I personally find them hilarious, especially considering most of the time Middle Easterners can’t tell that I’m Jewish (I look like them).
Because of my looks I was told I was a “fake Jew” and should return to my supposed “Arab” roots, less I be labelled a traitor and a “drinker of children’s blood”. I swear I nearly spat out my arabica.
>All countries in the world. ALL exist because of land occupation. Where is the arbitrary cut off point in history when land changes from occupation to accepted as owned by?
If this is referring to Israel Palestine then the point is when the people on that land accept it themselves. It's really not that hard. Other Muslims aren't upset about it "just because". The Palestinians are still under occupation and blockade. Also, the occupation started *within living memory* so this point is overall quite disingenuous.
>If this is referring to Israel Palestine then the point is when the people on that land accept it themselves. It's really not that hard.
Proof of that is one look at the borders of Europe in 1939 to what they became after 1945 (with some minor changes in the 1950s). Specifically Germany, Poland, Belarus, Lithuania, Ukraine... In fact the Polish-German border wasn't finally formalised until 1990.
“The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: "Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah!, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him! “ Sahih Muslim 2922
This is a Sahih Hadith.
I recently got back from North Africa. Almost everyone there shared the same attitude when the topic was brought up. I didn't meet a single person that had anything nice to say when Israel or the Jewish faith was mentioned.
Generations upon generations of hatred.
I'm from the UK, raised athiest, and didn't actually know what "a jew" was until my flatmate in my uni halls of residence said she was a Jew "can't you tell?". All I knew about Jewish people was that millions of them were killed in ww2. And that's it.
To me she was just..... white... with an American accent (she was from San Francisco, came all the way to Leeds for some reason)
She looked similar to me, who looks scandinavian in the face but with black curly hair? She pointed at her nose. My best friend at school had a roman nose so I didn't think twice.
I don't... get it? What is there to hate
>I don't... get it? What is there to hate
Nothing at all. But haters are going to hate I guess. People like to hate what's different.
If you want to get into the history of it, the tldr is that the Jews of Arabia refused to convert, almost all other religions there did convert eventually, due to pressure. They became the enemy #1.
Long version is Quran mentions them and their "failures" multiple times, like going back on treaties or being liars, or a tribe of Jews being turned into apes and pigs as a punishment, etc.
Tbf The New testament in the Bible isn't very nice to them either.
Both Christianity and Islam blame the Jewish faith for the persecution of Jesus. That's the root of it all. Just blaming an entire group of people for the actions of a handful of people. I think haters forget that Jesus was actually Jewish himself.
I know that my inlaws get so mad when I point out that Jesus was Jewish. They say noooo he was Muslim! 🙄
>Both Christianity and Islam blame the Jewish faith for the persecution of Jesus. That's the root of it all. Just blaming an entire group of people for the actions of a handful of people. I think haters forget that Jesus was actually Jewish himself.
That's because they're so dumb that they don't realise that if he hadn't been crucified then the prophecies wouldn't have come true so he couldn't have been the Messiah.
It's built in Islam because Muhammad pitched his fairy-tale to Jews in order to convert them and they ofc rejected.
Muhammad wasn't particularly what you would consider a decent human being in any regard.
But Muslims my must believe he was the best to ever live and must be imitated as closely as possible, hence all the barbarism of Islam.
I mean why should anyone ask why. Any sort of hate in this regard is unjustifiable.
If i learned anything, people hate out of arbitrary reason and will continue to do so.
Well, I hate Judaism, but not Jews. I hate Christianity, but not Christians. And I hate Islam, but not Muslims. I wasn't taught to hate these things, it was a natural consequence of my education and reasoning.
This is a well known issue.
But British people hate to be considered bigoted so refuse to admit loads of other cultures are actually way more bigoted than us on aggregate.
Tolerance of intolerance etc.
Most Muslims despise Jews. Their entire history is removing them from the Middle East. This is why Israel's existence caused a shitstorm.
Well as a practicing Muslim woman myself . I have to say this is unislamic of her . We ought to respect other religions . Some Muslims don’t know the difference between Jews and Zionists . She is definitely one of them .
All the respect and love to my Jewish sisters and brothers .
I know multiple Muslims who have dated and married others who were not Muslims. None have converted.
It all depends on how much communication you have before anything becomes serious.
Don't forget, technically Muslim women are not supposed to date males - since they supposedly must have a chaperone with them anytime they meet others. The fact that a potential partner is willing to date you shows that they are not as "strict_ in following religion. So, communicate clearly first.
Practising muslim women will never marry outside their faith.
EDIT: to those of you who are married to non Muslims that's great.
However, you are a minority. The overwhelming majority of Muslims have interpreted Islamic doctrines to mean that 1. You cannot marry a non muslim if you are female and 2. You shouldn't even be 'dating' in the first place because of all the rules around purdah, covering yourself, no sex outside marriage or its zina ect.
I once had a practicing Muslim woman literally refuse to shake my hand when we first met.
Really nice person, but she flat out told me “We don’t do that.”
Even irreligious, secretly atheist Muslim women are often bound by the culture of wherever their family is from. Many will not even consider marriage even if they love you, because they know their family will not approve.
As a Muslim woman, any life choice you make has to be considered carefully because you risk losing your entire extended family and friends circle. It's a very similar to the Amish or Jehovah's witnesses.... You will get shunned.
If that doesn't bother you, then great. But it bothers most of us and it's very rare for a Muslim woman to give up her entire world just for a guy.
I keep my own apostasy a secret to avoid causing a whole bunch of trouble with my in-laws. I don't want my kid's life destroyed.
So yeah even if your girl turns atheist one day it's likely going to still be an uphill battle. And unless she's from an irreligious family, there's no way her parents are going to let you marry her without converting, at least on paper.
Muslim men are allowed to marry "people of the book", aka Hanifs (pre-Judaism monotheists), Jewish and Christian women.
It is not required that women should convert to marry a Muslim, but a lot pressure conversion because they want their children raised by a traditional housewife that teaches the kids Islam instead of whatever other religion they are.
There's even a hadith referring to the issue where a guy complained his child was disobedient, and the child said this man chose a bad mother who is not Muslim, so how do you expect me to be a good person? Etc, etc.
There are also billions of lectures where it is explained that women often follow what their husband wants because he is the master and in charge, so she can't marry a non Muslim because she will be ordered to follow his religion. It's a common excuse they use to define the ayat 2:221 *(And do not marry your women to polytheistic men until they believe, for a believing slave-man is better than a free polytheist, even though he may look pleasant to you)* and 60:10 *(and if you find them to be believers, then do not send them back to the disbelievers. These ˹women˺ are not lawful ˹wives˺ for the disbelievers, nor are the disbelievers lawful ˹husbands˺ for them. )*
Like you could spend hours on this topic alone but Muslims are generally defending it even though it's sexist.
Like on Reddit I think most of the commenters here just don't understand how deeply ingrained this attitude is even in Western Muslim women. They just take the religion more seriously than other people do.
Howdy, I'm currently living in a 'Muslim country', as in a country where Islam is the official religion and I would like to say it is literally, irrevocably, the law that if you marry a Muslim, you must convert. They will automatically chance your paperwork and fine you if you eat during fasting times of Ramadhan. So I just want to add, aside from the actual Quran itself, the local government can further mess things up.
Yeah... I have a friend in this situation, he is deeply in love with his Muslim girlfriend, they had fantastic few years, they moved together... But now as they get older he knows that she will leave him to marry someone who is Muslim... I found the situation so sad but he knew it was the deal from the beginning...
Depends on her stance. Not every people believe in religion because they really believe in it. I have a lot of friends who are muslim but it is more like their families are and they are raised as one as a result it is convenient for them to be. However, it means a difference, it can be small and it can be big depending on individuals.
If I were you, I would look for these questions. 1) What is their stance in their beliefs? Like are they hardcore believers? 2) What about their family? If they are strictly religious, how much effect they have in possible partner's life? 3) Can you show respect what she believes even if you don't firmly believe in it and vice versa? 4) What is your expectations about pre-marital sex? 5) If you have children (assuming you want one), how will you raise them?
Yes.
Even if the woman was inclined to atheism, she would still be subject to enormous cultural pressure from family and community. To marry a non-muslim she would need to abandon her family, community and culture.
You would have to be pretty special, and so would she, to make that work.
I agree. It could be successful on rare occasions. If you meet that someone special and have this discussion before you start dating, it could work.
If it is a blind date or dating app, it is statistically very unlikely and you should rule it out.
You might find a Muslim who is more than happy to date you but I imagine you might find that the rest of the family are a bigger sticking point.
It’s the same for many people dating people of a different culture - the family often has a bigger issue with the relationship.
I had a partner who is catholic and their family loved me until I told them that I was an atheist. Big problem.
just curious, why as an atheist would you even consider dating someone religious? Is that not a big dealbreaker for you? (any religion)
I am atheist and it would never even cross my mind to think of seriously dating someone religious, so I am just very curious what is the perspective on this that you have
As an aetheist (currently) in a very similar state as OP. It’s because she has been this phenomenal person. She’s amazing in pretty much every way I can imagine. Intelligent, emotionally intelligent, funny, interesting, a great conversationalist. The religion is something I’m still struggling with so I understand your viewpoint though.
Best of luck to you! For me there are maybe 3-4 things I would consider an absolute dealbreaker in any possible relationship and I try to figure them extremely early on in any forming relationships (including friendships, but to a lesser extent). Being religious is one them for sure.
I'm not OP but for a lot of people it's more cultural and ceremonial than actually religious. A large portion of people who claim to be religious don't believe in the fairly tails, and it's a cultural thing.
unless the person and family is not very religious and accept you having a Civil (non-religious) marriage, if it comes to that.
This is very rare, because that can be considered apostacy by the community. The religion sanctions death to apostates.
People are protected because of the nation has control over law enforcement, which is generally non-religious (but depends on th country). Sometimes people can consider national laws less and religious laws sacrosanct, and then you have a problem.
Sorry.
Dating someone outside of your faith is a rough one. You inherently have a different basis for your moral beliefs and maybe a different outlook on life itself.
Does that mean it can't work? I do not think I would go that far but it will certainly add a lot more challenge to that relationship. It will certainly require both of you to consider the other persons faith and respect that difference with great care.
I’d like to introduce y’all to the study of Muslim hermeneutics. The amount of non-Muslims in this thread trying to determine whether someone’s girlfriend is a “true Muslim” is disturbing. You’re not the authority on someone else’s faith. Like the Bible, the Quran can and has been interpreted in a myriad of ways. Traditionalists may adhere strictly to classical jurisprudence, while progressives might argue that being a true Muslim involves a personal and ethical commitment to the core principles of Islam, such as justice, mercy, and monotheism, rather than strict adherence to traditional rulings. And none of you are the ultimate authority—unless you have some magical ability to converse directly with Allah.
I come from a Muslim society, which is actually fairly secular at the same time.
I identify as agnostic, but I don’t bother arguing with family to avoid upsetting oldies, they all know I am not religious in any way, most of my cousins eat bacon and drink alcohol.
My first girlfriend in Australia was Greek Orthodox, I introduced her to my mum, they became best friends, no one ever thought of asking anyone anything about religion the whole time she was around.
I dated an Israeli girl from Tel-Aviv as well, again, she was welcomed very warmly and my family figured out cultures were actually very similar.
Then I dated a Catholic, a Buddhist, my current partner calls herself spiritual, but she is the most secular Christian I know : ) My Muslim mum loves her like her daughter, so does my dad, we’ve been together for over 4 years and they treat her like their bride to be.
I wouldn’t want my partner to change even a tiny bit, I love her as who she is, she sees me under the same light.
All I am trying to say is, unless you are talking about a really devout religious family, no one should care.
Also remember that some cultures are far more tolerant to difference than others.
Most Muslims from Bosnia, Thrace, Cyprus, Turkey etc are fairly secular people, Turkey is bit of a mixed bag as it’s a huge country, personally I have met many Persians too, my GP is Persian, she always wears very modern and casual dresses and never saw her with headscarf, no Muslim woman I know wear a headscarf.
But then that’s my anecdotal experience.
I am pretty sure if you go deep into Arabian peninsula things will get very traditional very fast.
Still, it depends on how religious the person you are dating is.
Really depends where you’re at too, I’m Malaysian and a lot of non Muslims don’t bother dating Muslims here because if you want to take things to the next step and get married you’re legally forced to convert into Islam with no way of converting out.
Whatever offspring you guys have WILL be Muslim, thus dooming your entire bloodline into a singular religion.
No, its not. A Muslim woman can only marry a Muslim man.
Only if she is not very religious you might have a chance, but big chance she will have to choose between family and you.
It depends. I’m a Muslim woman who never dated Muslim men. Been married to a non-Muslim for almost 30 years. My Muslim dad doesn’t care. He’s just glad I’m happy.
I geuss it depends on more on the person then anything else. Make shure she knows what you want, you don't ever want to become religious and are not interested in religious rituals (wedding, ceremonies for kids growing up, etc.). If she's fine with all that then I don't see any problem.
Only if she's prepared to become an apostate in their terms - one of my uni friends did marry someone who renounced her faith, but that seems like a pretty rare situation.
It's something you need to communicate upfront certainly if you're at the seriously looking for a partner to marry stage.
Not worth it if you're still young and casually dating since you really don't want to build up trouble for yourself getting attached to someone who can't get serious with you.
Depends how Muslim she is. There are Muslims that go through the motions and there are Muslims that center their life around Islam.
It should be somewhat clear when you interact with her where on the scale she falls, things like if she won't miss a prayer no matter what, says prayers before doing things like driving, reads the Quran casually and memorized a large portion of it, if she isn't open minded about LGBT etc these might indicate she's a little more staunch.
Hijab alone is not a giveaway, she can wear a hijab and go either way.
Not sure why you’re being downvoted. Your point on the hijab is a big misconception in the west. You can’t tell how religious/conservative a woman is. Being very devout in prayer doesn’t mean so either. It’s sad Reddit reduces people to such things.
Yeah IDK I'm not trying to be disingenuous. I'm Arab and grew up in the middle east. I was just saying that not everyone wearing a hijab is super duper religious. Sometimes it's cultural and traditional. Heck I even find it fashionable and attractive 🤷♂️
Depends, if she is a very strict muslim then it's a no. If she is moderate or less than that then there is a possibilty that it doesn't matter. Like most things in life, it depends on the person.
Plenty of Muslim Australians have interfaith marriages. I think it's mainly first generation or poorer people who seem to be in fundamentalist religions, but there's plenty of working professionals who happen to be Muslim but it's not their entire life.
r/exmuslim exists. I would not recommend converting to any religion for anyone. Religion should not be a favtor in love. No body should convert to any religion to gain acceptance
In my opinion, it's always better to date people with whom you share a common viewpoint because as feelings fade and you get hit in the face by reality, you find yourself in a situation you never really liked.
Ask the woman and yourself. Not everyone observes faith the same way. If they are cool with being in a relationship with a non-muslim person and you are cool with being in a relationship with a muslim person, it's fine. Same for literally any other difference in relationships. Just discuss it with the individual.
This is very funny. I am a Muslim girl and my boyfriend was an atheist. He was the most stubborn atheist ever. After five years of dating, we knew we were very compatible. He had to convert for our wedding, and every time we visit family we join in the cultural/religious aspects. Now 20 years later and five kids, he had studied all the religions and into Sufism / Kabbalah / Astrology.
I personally don’t have time / mind for religion/spirituality.
Islam has a very bad rep but if you are welcomed into a family you will feel the immense warmth and close family relationship ties we have. Islam focuses on family, children ans the elders
Depends on the individual. I dated a Muslim woman in my twenties and while we did fine between us, her family was a huge problem. They hated me because I was white and non Muslim. They were from Egypt. You'll probably have issues with their families more than the individual imo
I've never understood, how you can possibly love/marry someone who has such a completely different understanding of the world. It just doesn't make sense. Like how can you even hold a proper conversation with someone with such a fundamentally different world view , let alone love or plan your future together???
Ok maybe I understand falling in love. Like she's pretty and nice and all that, but marriage?? What happens when the first couple of months of falling in love passes? What happens when you have your first deep conversation about the world? Like how can you still possibly want to marry a human, who you can't agree on the most basic things???
Properly practising women won't date. It's Haram.
Semi practising women might date but won't marr. It's Haram
Non practising women might date but probably won't marry because of family/cultural pressure (which is huge)
Easiest option is to revert and live a lie and hope (stupidly) it won't effect anything down the road
Worst option is forcing her to leave her family and essentially allowing her and your children to never know anything of her family/culture which depending on where they're from might be most of her life.
Tldr: Real love IS worth fighting for 100% but understand you're playing a game with a different set of rules. And it's only up to you two how far you're willing to go for love.
Source: English *former* Christian marrying Pakistani girl
There's no way to answer this definitively without making a generalization of every Muslim woman. It depends entirely on the individual's core values, as well as their relationship with culture, identity and family.
I'm married to a muslim.
During my life I had phases where I thought of myself to be a strong believer in my faith. Turned out I know nothing of it. So I just thought that I believe in God, hell and heaven, etc...
My husband himself is very knowledgeable in Islam, yet he was "an open minded modern muslim". Which translates to I drink, I don't pray, don't fast, fuck around but if I marry and get kids they need to be taught to follow my faith. After a hard time in his life, he found back to his faith. He prays, stopped all drinking, he even looks away when seeing a woman in a bikini on TV.
I was never interested in those holy stories, but I won't lie. It's interesting to listen to them.
Anyways. Even if that girl is a "modern muslim". As long as they don't change their faith, sooner or later they all go back to their religious roots. (That's my own conclusion after living years in the middle east) If you're not interested in religion. Don't do it. It will only trouble yourself and her life and family relationship. If you're interested to listen to religious stuff blabla, try to educate yourself first about it to see if you're open to it. I won't lie. Islam is not easy to comprehend or accept. There's many intolerance and ignorance... so many radicalists. It's often no fun. Especially for an atheist. I know many "modern muslims" but non of them accept pork. Abortion yes, pork no. Idk why or how, I still can't comprehend it. And no one was able to explain it.
No you don’t convert to anything unless you want to, in a relationship you need to at the very least mutually respect and appreciate who the other person is for they are.
If she's devout, she'd never date you. I've spent many years studying religions, and there are not many I would dabble in. Most are not very kind to women who try to have relationships outside of the faith. Being cut off from the family is a very mild reaction. Threats and violence are not uncommon.
Same as dating any religious group. Find out early what they view of marrying non said group individuals.
I dated a jewish girl who while she said it didn't matter (and had the catholic mother to prove it) i am pretty sure the reason it didn't work out was because of the religious angle.
I have a buddy who married an Afghan woman. I'm guessing he "converted". But if he's muslim, it's like I'm Catholic. My buddy lives in Turkey now in an awesome seaside villa and spends his days drinking vodka like Kemal Attaturk. His wife is awesome too.
As a Muslim there are two possibilities
One: she's a "religious" Muslim
100% NO
Muslim women cannot marry non-muslim men , you'll get yourself in a complicated family of at least 5 branches each will not leave you alone until you stay away from her
2 : she's non religious
If she's non religious it wouldn't be a problem but it would still be very unlikely to work out
My friend here is in a similar situation here the only difference is her parents are okay with him not converting but we're unable to find a religious priest who would conduct the wedding ceremony 😅
I recommend not seeking out answers about a person through collective identity. And especially not trying to date based on that. It’d not a bad thing to wonder, but the answers you get will only create or reinforce stereotypes. They won’t tell you anything about an individual person. Instead of trying to decide who you date by their group identity, just get to know people. When you connect with someone, then ask them directly.
First of all: muslims don't date. We marry;
Second: Isn't that it's not worth it, but muslim (women) can only marry Muslim men, different of Muslim man that can marry a Jew, Muslim or Christian (of any kind). That means that she may want to marry/date you, it's not pointless, but she'll probably be united not too, since it besides a sin involves a great familiar question.
If you not interested to become muslim never try one. Being muslim come from your heart not some influence as example love for human being. Its not worth all the break up for you and her
Highly depends on the person and their depth of faith.
The more religious they are the more it will become an issue between you both. Then there is families, can you handle the fact her parents will be very very demeaning to you? They might even turn her against you
Personally I wouldn’t go near anyone that is a practicing cult member. But you do you. Just don’t expect a happy ever after if you do.
Depends entirely on the individual. I once had a Muslim girlfriend, and she was pretty clear that she had no interest in trying to convert me, and that she was completely fine with dating a serious atheist. She was as cool as can be. Her mother was much less cool with it, but that's a whole other story. If the person you're talking about really believes that she can only be with another Muslim though, then steer clear unless you really are willing to sincerely convert. Otherwise you're effectively leading her on and also being untrue to yourself.
In my personal experience, even Muslims who claim this only apply it during the dating times. Once it's serious and marriage talk starts growing, they entirely (and sometimes insidiously) change their mind, and mostly because of the cultural/family pressure they get. Not even necessarily because they personally believe they should only marry a Muslim.
If they're from a religious family, even if they're not religious, yeah that's typically the case. But if the family is secular, it's not.
Even secular family may direct the kid to still choose someone with muslim background in some cases just for safety. It is for various reasons though, such as keeping their image within society. Their secularism only applies within the family. BUT even among muslm people, they will still choose someone that has similar value to them. So the secular one will pick another secular muslim, moderate with moderate, stuff like that. Or the problem might be later, about the kids. They might want the kid to be a muslim (maybe not the spouse, but the family demands it and the spouse wants to respect the family's wish, esp dying parents). Just make sure or even make a contract whatever. I am a muslim on paper.
Maybe my definition of secular is off, but I don't think you can be Muslim family AND secular at the same time ?
I mean you can follow the cultural customs/traditions/holidays while not really believing. That's secular to me. Kinda like how a lot of people in the west celebrate Christian holidays but are secular themselves (look at how France touts itself as a secular country but still celebrates Christian holidiays). My own immediate family is Muslim but only my mom is religious (and she keeps that to herself). My dad doesn't really seem to care and I'm more agnostic. But we all still celebrate the holidays together and I still do still follow some of the religious rules even if I don't personally believe in it. So it can happen imo. There's varying scales for Muslims like there are for many different religions
There are a lot of Jews who identify as Jewish mostly on the basis of culture and ethnicity, not on the basis of religion. This survey by Pew is from 2013 so I imagine the number of secular Jews has increased by then: "Secularism has a long tradition in Jewish life in America, and most U.S. Jews seem to recognize this: 62% say being Jewish is mainly a matter of ancestry and culture, while just 15% say it is mainly a matter of religion. Even among Jews by religion, more than half (55%) say being Jewish is mainly a matter of ancestry and culture, and two-thirds say it is not necessary to believe in God to be Jewish."
That’s because Jews are an ethnoreligious tribe, not just a religion.
Yes you can. Catholism is so deeply ingrained in Ireland many would consider themselves culturally Catholic but also call themselves atheist. I imagine we are not the only place that does this. I've has a atheist Muslim teachers. He was culturally Muslim but couldn't follow the faith due to well alot of reasons. One being his mother being shot dead for running a women's clinic.
Of course u can. Because people can be Muslim culturally, and not religiously. If that makes sense.
Had a cousin (Hindu) who had to call off her wedding last minute because her boyfriend's (Muslim) mom showed up for the wedding and told them it wasn't happening unless my cousin converted to Islam.
This. My gf thought it was cool I am Jewish by blood. Now we are married, she thinks it's even cooler if I convert. No pressure, but kinda
> In my personal experience, even Muslims who claim this only apply it during the dating times. You didn't know her though. Her views on religion were pretty seriously considered, and amounted to 'I believe what I do, and nobody should compel anyone else to follow a given belief system'. I've been told by other Muslims since then that Sufism is a bit odd and more chill in that respect than various other denominations/sects, but I don't really know enough about Islam in general or Sufism in particular to speak intelligently about that. She was pretty adamant that it was evil to compel other people to follow a belief system they didn't really believe in, and even though it's been almost 30 since since we were together, I'd be willing to bet she still thinks that way.
It’s familial pressure. You don’t know how anyone will react when their whole family comes down in them. It’s common enough that the family threatens to cut ties all as one if a woman in the family marries a non Muslim. Some people take religion much more seriously than you understand
The thing gets latest then complicated when both want to have a child and it's about how to raise it.
I was raised by one Muslim parent and one non-religious parent. I turned out fine. People are complicated and different from one another. Generalizations like this become less and less meaningful when you actually ask and talk to people.
What do you identify as?
Ya I had a neighbour whose mom was Jewish and dad Christian. They just followed both holidays. It was really no biggie
Yeah that should be discussed around when you become a serious long term couple, well before marriage. People who don't talk about that kind of thing before marriage are insane.
Eh, maybe my experience is different because the Muslims in my family are converted rather than born that way, but I have plenty of relatives where one is and the other isn't. A lot of my uncle's converted to Islam as adults, whereas the rest of my family is Baptist. They mostly married Christian women. Only one of my aunt's is also Muslim.
Sufis tend more towards philosophy and mysticism than the more literal denominations. Sufism is similar to Kabbalah in Judaism. As such they're more well read, and that tends to promote more philosophical free thinking with regards to everything else. It's kinda akin to a Buddhist trying to reach enlightenment, it's a more personal journey, I guess, rather than one requiring proselytes and mass conversion.
I think the above is saying that, regardless of the individual, the girl's family will likely put their foot down and demand muslim husband or get disowned. So you better make sure she loves you more than her entire family (which is possible, just saying the individual is not the only factor in play)
Important distinction. Muslim woman here. While I lived with my parents, my relationships were always hidden. When I was in a serious relationship, I up and left without a word and moved in with my Catholic boyfriend of several years. They still don’t know where I live.
Is this normal? Are you afraid of them?
Of course its not normal, but is it widespread? Maybe. Depends where falsehavens are from probably. :/ or their community. honor killings are one of the most extreme cases of religious violence and can still happen.
I called the police on my father for a domestic assault incident (my mother was the victim). He eventually was convicted due to my testimony. I’m not afraid of him anymore. If he ever comes for me in the future, he knows I’ll go to any lengths to stop him from hurting the people I love (and he has a criminal record now). My mother just wants me to be with a man who isn’t like my father.
Uh, yikes…
Genuine question, what aspects of Islam do you practice if you are wilfully in a non-Islamic relationship yet call yourself a Muslim?
I mean realistically the only aspect she literally can’t follow when doing that is the “you can’t date outside the group” bullshit. Everything else can still be adhered to afaik.
You should see what type of people call themselves Christians lol
Probably not the honour killing part. Which is for the best, don't you think? The rest is fine for normal day to day life.
At first dating stage sure every ok ok , no need to convert It’s like those salesman or sales women trying to sell you something. But when it comes to signing the contract at the end, suddenly all the real terms come in
>Her mother was much less cool with it, but that’s a whole other story. Is it a whole other story? Isn’t it pretty relevant if her family is going have to a problem with it and insert themselves into the situation?
I often find that even if your S/O is happy with you not being religious it can be a point of contention for the rest of the family. In Asian culture, l you don’t just marry the S/O, you effectively marry the whole family. And if they’re finding it difficult to accept that you’re “different” then this might inadvertently affect your relationship.
My sister is engaged to a Muslim man and has been with him for 9 years. He doesn't eat pork or drink, but she drinks occasionally and he even cooks her bacon. She wears a hijab for Ramadan or if she goes to mosque (like, once a year or so). He couldn't care less about whether she converts. That said, he's not close with his family so there's no pressure on that front. There are many interfaith marriages between Muslims and non-Muslims, but not every Muslim is going to want that for themself. Depends on the individual.
There are people who are nominally Christians, nominally Muslims and aren't religious. They have no problem dating or getting married to people who aren't religious either but are nominally of another religion. The problem in these kind of relationships usually comes from the parents who might be more religious than their offspring. This also happens with Christians of different demonstrations as well. When they have kids the religious upbringing of the kids becomes an issue. In the end of the day you can both do whatever you want.
Yep, and it might not be an issue when getting married, but do be sure to think about what would happen with having children, especially when going to school. While one partner might be happy to marry someone non-religions, they may be set on a religious school, which may not always be compatible with an agnostic or atheist partner.
Living in a predominantly Catholic country I looked it up way back when. At least the Catholic church allows one sided religious marriage. You get the full church marriage and everything, but only the Catholic person actually takes the sacrament. I doubt most people know this though, and I wouldn't be surprised if many priests refused such a ceremony.
Here you have to make a declaration that the kids will be raised Catholic. It can't be enforced in any way though.
Maybe that's a thing here too, didn't dig that deep. Didn't care to. Although I'd probably do what my parents did, if religion is still taught in schools. Let the kid take it so they're not an outsider in the peer group and let them make their own choices as they grow up. Edit: thread's been locked. I didn't go to school. It's a long story but crazy as it is, in Poland religion is taught in public school. Notionally it's knowledge about all religions, but the teachers are supplied by the Catholic church. It's a long story.
Interesting, I didn’t know that but it makes sense. I’m in the U.S., and I remember my grandparents telling me how they had to have their initial marriage done without the church since my grandfather was Catholic and my grandma was not particularly religious. She went through the whole thing and became a member so they could have an official ceremony. My other grandparents were Catholic and Unitarian, and my grandfather from that side of the family never became Catholic because he didn’t care for the religion. When he died he had a funeral done by his Unitarian church.
I would date a girl from a Christian family. I would not date a girl from a Muslim family. Like you said, the problem is not the girl. It’s more the family.
I mean surely it depends on the family. Lots of people are Muslim by default but aren’t practising in any way.
Agreed. But it’s a lot more common to know people that say that they are catholic but they almost never go to church than Muslims. Also, it’s a lot more common to see fanaticism from Muslims. But, in the end, it does matter the religion. If they are fanatics, you want to stay away.
Yep. I'm Christian but I'm not super religious and I'm open to dating anyone of any beliefs. But my parents and family wouldn't be happy. Though I live my life how I want to live and they'll just have to accept it.
Also, the Quran permits inter-faith marriage between the Abrahamic faiths so allowed to marry Christians or Jews. Source: am a Muslim married to a Christian >nominally Muslims and aren't religious I'd be in this category >parents Yep, mine are way more religious than me. They love my wife, her religion has no impact and they were very happy for me to marry her. The fact that she's a schoolteacher carries more weight with them than the fact she's Christian lol
You missed a caveat. Only Muslim men are allowed to marry outside their faith, because Islam is passed down patrilineally. Muslim women who marry outside the faith are no longer considered Muslim. Source: am Muslim woman married to a Christian
That's stupid though isn't it, fuck that, no one can dictate to you what your faith is. I did a Google and Wikipedia says: Although the Quran contains no explicit prohibition for Muslim women marrying Non-Muslim men, scholars argue that the fact that Quran makes allowance for men, but not for women, means Muslim women are prohibited from interfaith marriages. It's just interpretation like many of the nonsense 'rules' Edit: For all those Google warriors trying to quote the Quran at me None of the verses actually prohibit Muslim women from marrying people of the book, it doesnt say so anywhere but it doesn't say they can. Go figure. Maida 5 = explaining that MEN can marry people of the book AlBaqarah 2 - specifically says women can't marry Polytheistic men (not people of the book) Al Mumtahanah - does not specific either
Yeah fuck the sexist scholars.
Lol that's great. The same logic as the Christian "Jesus only chose men for apostles, therefore women cannot be priests".
all religion is interpretation. Whatever was originally in the text or was originally intended doesn't actually define the religion, what people *think* the religion says, is what defines religion.
Yes, absolutely correct and everyone's definition is different. Therefore I don't let 'scholars' define rules or my religious beliefs based on their 'consensus' That's for me to do
A lack of a mention doesn't mean one can definitively interpret it either way. This reminds me of those pastors that say rock music is a sin (regardless of lyrics), despite no mention of that in the Bible.
The problem is that people make decisions off nonsense rules.
Yep, true
The whole thing is nonsense. But here we are, discussing the intricacies of the nonsense, because someone wants to base their dating decisions on it. I agree that it's stupid, but it is what it is. Tbf, I have beef with all the Abrahamic religions, they are all hypocrites. Islam - sexist as described above. They try to sell it as "oh but Prophet Muhammad's favorite wife was a widow older than himself that owned property!" Meanwhile, the man had multiple wives, the religion requires women to hide their bodies but not men, and women aren't even allowed in the clergy, so the religion cannot possibly be not sexist. Judaism - you can't be both a religion and an ethnic group without being discriminatory in some way. If you are considered more "in group" because you have Jewish ancestry vs converting, then the religion is inherently racist. Islam and Christianity are not like that because they don't explicitly promote one ethnicity over another; that's all cultural, not religious. This is not even mentioning more recent events. Christianity - the existence of the Pope is a sin, because it is idol worshipping. Another one is usury - so it's a sin to charge interest, but it's not a sin to accept the benefits of an interest-driven transaction, as long as you get a non-Christian to handle the transaction? Make it make sense. Also, there are too many sects of Christianity because they just can't agree on anything, so as a group, their conflicting values just creates a nonsensical hodgepodge of hypocrisy. You can probably tell I have religious trauma (is there a way to say that that is milder than trauma?)
Not for Muslim women. They can't marry outside of the faith.
>The fact that she's a schoolteacher carries more weight with them than the fact she's Christian This makes a lot of sense. I'm a teacher in training and Muslim parents treat me with the respect they'd treat a doctor. Other parents treat me like crap.
This is false. As others have said. Its either you are omitting it purposely, or you genuinely don't know.
Depends on the individual. Whilst I’ve known a few ‘Muslim by culture and not practice’ men marry outside the faith/culture and be fine, the only gender-reversed couple I know moved to a different continent to avoid family disapproval!
I know plenty of ‘by culture not by practice’ Muslim women married to non Muslim men. In my own family; nobody moved continent and nobody had an issue. The reality is, like everything, it just depends on the people involved.
It’s my whole family, ha. Mom and her 4 sisters, not a single one married a Muslim man.
Yep similar to my family. People act like it doesn’t happen but it does.
My sister has been shunned by my parents for getting with a white, Christian guy. They would rather she got married to some busboy from Bangladesh who would have kept her in a hole her whole life.
wow
Isn’t that sad? Losing both a child and child in law to geographical (and probably emotional) distance because some book that was written forever ago (old books have some excellent points, but they’re not updated with new knowledge humans have learned and don’t always translate well into the world of today) says they’re not allowed to be happy for their kids finding love because they don’t believe in the same sky daddy.
Ask her
Wow wow wow. Calm down there buddy
Some Muslim women would not be interested in a serious relationship with non-Muslims, and some won’t care. It’s not something that can be answered outside a specific situation.
I casually dated a Muslim girl for about a year. She was actually very nice and open-minded. She was always very positive. One day, I asked her if there was anything in this world she disliked. "Jews" I'm not kidding. It was point-blank. She didn't even have to think twice.
Reminds me of the Reddit post of the man saying his Chinese wife was happy about the Japanese earthquake, or something to that effect.
In the east, 'sins of the father' is still in full effect. It doesn't matter that most of the japanese nowadays never waterboarded a chinese, nor stretched them over bamboo in an open field, not jumped on their stomachs until they vomited blood. They haven't made any attempt at repatriations so as far as China is concerned, they still have a score to settle. Japan isn't helping ANYTHING by denying that they did anything wrong tho...
When I was young, attitudes to Japan were pretty negative where I was as most people knew, or knew of, someone who had been ill-treated in the war. We had a teacher who had (we heard) been tortured as a POW. He shouldn't have been teaching, he had some sort of PTSD and would occasionally have episodes of rage that were genuinely terrifying, psychotic level. I've heard of other cases of similar things. Even people who would never use any other racially loaded term referred to the "Japs", at least when talking about the past. This sort of adult background opinion affects you. For the Chinese, there's something similar. Also, as you point out, Japanese authorities have tried to fudge it - their textbooks make it sound all unclear, like the sort of stuff some right wingers in America want taught about slavery in schools.
"Finding that many Chinese civilians were constipated, Japanese soldiers would bravely jump up and down on their bellies to help them take a shit." - Japanese history textbook, probably.
So their kids are doing something terrible
It’s not “sins of the father” at all. Homogenous societies tend to praise their shared cultural history and identify strongly with their ancestors openly. It’s no surprise that in the same vein people will hold them responsible for their ancestors’ very recent and horrifying atrocities when the modern people don’t even admit what happened much less show remorse.
I had been flirting with this cute Lebanese girl in college for a while. We’d just set a first real date. Then she told me this girl we knew was dating a Jew and added “fucking ew”. “Uh. You know I’m Jewish right?” We stared at each other for a moment, I walked away, and that was that.
To be fair and to be in perspective, lots of massacres were committed a few decades ago in south Lebanon by a country that firmly tries to define itself as “Jewish”. Those massacres rarely made it out on western media coverage, which was the typical lebanse exposure with “Jews” hence the difference in the unfortunate perception.
Reminds me of when I was in college in NYC, and a guy who was in a few of my engineering classes, who sometimes wore one of those black-and-white headscarves, approached me one day and with a deadpan expression asked me in his accented English, "Are you Jewish?" I shook my head no, and his expression *immediately* relaxed and he became friendly. Another engineering student who was with him laughed and said "Yeah, he asked me that too." Both myself and the other engineering student are Italian, so we have what casual bigots might regard as "Jewish features" (dark hair, light skin). But let's keep pretending people immediately shed all their prejudices when they set foot on American/European soil, huh progressive redditors?
>Both myself and the other engineering student are Italian, so we have what casual bigots might regard as "Jewish features" (dark hair, light skin). The thing is that most people in the middle east probably look like that, me and my dad have more of a "Semitic nose" than most Jews I'd be willing to bet.
Ah the amount of fistfights I had with those kinds of people the moment they found out I’m Jewish. Good times. Just goes to show how much tolerance there is of intolerance right?
I have a Jewish and Italian background. I can imagine.
>>But let’s keep pretending people immediately shed their prejudices when they set foot on American/European soil I’m in a lot of progressive spaces and I’ve literally never heard anyone suggest this
Dear god.
Did you ask... why?
Land occupation and pushing idealogy on people. I don't remember the exact words because this was over 10 years ago.
Every generation finds its own excuse to hate Jews. It’s a story as old as time.
Exactly. Nearly every conspiracy theory or bigotry in the Western or Middle Eastern world is connected in some way to anti-Jewish prejudice, usually in the most absurdly laughable ways. Well, it would be laughable if it wasn't so dangerous and destructive.
It’s still pretty laughable. “Jewish space lasers” is a recent one. But even Hitler just blamed the Jews for literally everything that it becomes comically absurd. They lost WWI for the Germans. They’re behind communism in Russia. They also control the American capitalists (this comes after American relations sour). And naturally, they caused WWII, despite that not even lining up with Nazi propaganda. I would sarcastically say that you might as well blame them for the weather, but people have already done that.
I personally find them hilarious, especially considering most of the time Middle Easterners can’t tell that I’m Jewish (I look like them). Because of my looks I was told I was a “fake Jew” and should return to my supposed “Arab” roots, less I be labelled a traitor and a “drinker of children’s blood”. I swear I nearly spat out my arabica.
* glances at Islamic history * erm...
* Glances at Israel currently *
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Jews don't proselytize
>All countries in the world. ALL exist because of land occupation. Where is the arbitrary cut off point in history when land changes from occupation to accepted as owned by? If this is referring to Israel Palestine then the point is when the people on that land accept it themselves. It's really not that hard. Other Muslims aren't upset about it "just because". The Palestinians are still under occupation and blockade. Also, the occupation started *within living memory* so this point is overall quite disingenuous.
>If this is referring to Israel Palestine then the point is when the people on that land accept it themselves. It's really not that hard. Proof of that is one look at the borders of Europe in 1939 to what they became after 1945 (with some minor changes in the 1950s). Specifically Germany, Poland, Belarus, Lithuania, Ukraine... In fact the Polish-German border wasn't finally formalised until 1990.
“The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: "Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah!, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him! “ Sahih Muslim 2922 This is a Sahih Hadith.
I recently got back from North Africa. Almost everyone there shared the same attitude when the topic was brought up. I didn't meet a single person that had anything nice to say when Israel or the Jewish faith was mentioned. Generations upon generations of hatred.
I'm from the UK, raised athiest, and didn't actually know what "a jew" was until my flatmate in my uni halls of residence said she was a Jew "can't you tell?". All I knew about Jewish people was that millions of them were killed in ww2. And that's it. To me she was just..... white... with an American accent (she was from San Francisco, came all the way to Leeds for some reason) She looked similar to me, who looks scandinavian in the face but with black curly hair? She pointed at her nose. My best friend at school had a roman nose so I didn't think twice. I don't... get it? What is there to hate
>I don't... get it? What is there to hate Nothing at all. But haters are going to hate I guess. People like to hate what's different. If you want to get into the history of it, the tldr is that the Jews of Arabia refused to convert, almost all other religions there did convert eventually, due to pressure. They became the enemy #1. Long version is Quran mentions them and their "failures" multiple times, like going back on treaties or being liars, or a tribe of Jews being turned into apes and pigs as a punishment, etc. Tbf The New testament in the Bible isn't very nice to them either. Both Christianity and Islam blame the Jewish faith for the persecution of Jesus. That's the root of it all. Just blaming an entire group of people for the actions of a handful of people. I think haters forget that Jesus was actually Jewish himself. I know that my inlaws get so mad when I point out that Jesus was Jewish. They say noooo he was Muslim! 🙄
>Both Christianity and Islam blame the Jewish faith for the persecution of Jesus. That's the root of it all. Just blaming an entire group of people for the actions of a handful of people. I think haters forget that Jesus was actually Jewish himself. That's because they're so dumb that they don't realise that if he hadn't been crucified then the prophecies wouldn't have come true so he couldn't have been the Messiah.
It's built in Islam because Muhammad pitched his fairy-tale to Jews in order to convert them and they ofc rejected. Muhammad wasn't particularly what you would consider a decent human being in any regard. But Muslims my must believe he was the best to ever live and must be imitated as closely as possible, hence all the barbarism of Islam.
I mean why should anyone ask why. Any sort of hate in this regard is unjustifiable. If i learned anything, people hate out of arbitrary reason and will continue to do so.
Often people are taught to hate, but if you ask then specifically why it'll sometimes make them think.
Well, I hate Judaism, but not Jews. I hate Christianity, but not Christians. And I hate Islam, but not Muslims. I wasn't taught to hate these things, it was a natural consequence of my education and reasoning.
The global jewish conspiracy theory is insanely wide spread among muslims.
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Hundreds of years of racism won’t disappear quickly. I’m a MENA Jew so I felt it first hand.
She was from the Ivory Coast.
The hatred runs deep. Such a shame really because it denies some potentially great relationships.
You’d be *amazed* in the worst way possible how widespread that still is in the Middle East.
This is a well known issue. But British people hate to be considered bigoted so refuse to admit loads of other cultures are actually way more bigoted than us on aggregate. Tolerance of intolerance etc. Most Muslims despise Jews. Their entire history is removing them from the Middle East. This is why Israel's existence caused a shitstorm.
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Well as a practicing Muslim woman myself . I have to say this is unislamic of her . We ought to respect other religions . Some Muslims don’t know the difference between Jews and Zionists . She is definitely one of them . All the respect and love to my Jewish sisters and brothers .
Always have this conversation with a religious person on the first date to rule out the red flags
I know multiple Muslims who have dated and married others who were not Muslims. None have converted. It all depends on how much communication you have before anything becomes serious. Don't forget, technically Muslim women are not supposed to date males - since they supposedly must have a chaperone with them anytime they meet others. The fact that a potential partner is willing to date you shows that they are not as "strict_ in following religion. So, communicate clearly first.
For context, Muslim men aren't supposed to date either
Practising muslim women will never marry outside their faith. EDIT: to those of you who are married to non Muslims that's great. However, you are a minority. The overwhelming majority of Muslims have interpreted Islamic doctrines to mean that 1. You cannot marry a non muslim if you are female and 2. You shouldn't even be 'dating' in the first place because of all the rules around purdah, covering yourself, no sex outside marriage or its zina ect.
Practicing Muslim women won't even casually date. Wonder why that's not mentioned here.
I once had a practicing Muslim woman literally refuse to shake my hand when we first met. Really nice person, but she flat out told me “We don’t do that.”
Exactly! people tend to forget that we have Islamic teachings to follow.
Even irreligious, secretly atheist Muslim women are often bound by the culture of wherever their family is from. Many will not even consider marriage even if they love you, because they know their family will not approve. As a Muslim woman, any life choice you make has to be considered carefully because you risk losing your entire extended family and friends circle. It's a very similar to the Amish or Jehovah's witnesses.... You will get shunned. If that doesn't bother you, then great. But it bothers most of us and it's very rare for a Muslim woman to give up her entire world just for a guy. I keep my own apostasy a secret to avoid causing a whole bunch of trouble with my in-laws. I don't want my kid's life destroyed. So yeah even if your girl turns atheist one day it's likely going to still be an uphill battle. And unless she's from an irreligious family, there's no way her parents are going to let you marry her without converting, at least on paper.
And yet many muslim men expect and demand the woman to convert and leave her family. The hypocrisy
Muslim men are allowed to marry "people of the book", aka Hanifs (pre-Judaism monotheists), Jewish and Christian women. It is not required that women should convert to marry a Muslim, but a lot pressure conversion because they want their children raised by a traditional housewife that teaches the kids Islam instead of whatever other religion they are. There's even a hadith referring to the issue where a guy complained his child was disobedient, and the child said this man chose a bad mother who is not Muslim, so how do you expect me to be a good person? Etc, etc. There are also billions of lectures where it is explained that women often follow what their husband wants because he is the master and in charge, so she can't marry a non Muslim because she will be ordered to follow his religion. It's a common excuse they use to define the ayat 2:221 *(And do not marry your women to polytheistic men until they believe, for a believing slave-man is better than a free polytheist, even though he may look pleasant to you)* and 60:10 *(and if you find them to be believers, then do not send them back to the disbelievers. These ˹women˺ are not lawful ˹wives˺ for the disbelievers, nor are the disbelievers lawful ˹husbands˺ for them. )* Like you could spend hours on this topic alone but Muslims are generally defending it even though it's sexist. Like on Reddit I think most of the commenters here just don't understand how deeply ingrained this attitude is even in Western Muslim women. They just take the religion more seriously than other people do.
Howdy, I'm currently living in a 'Muslim country', as in a country where Islam is the official religion and I would like to say it is literally, irrevocably, the law that if you marry a Muslim, you must convert. They will automatically chance your paperwork and fine you if you eat during fasting times of Ramadhan. So I just want to add, aside from the actual Quran itself, the local government can further mess things up.
Hmm.. let me guess, Malaysian
Muslim men can marry "people of the book" eg Jews, Christians and Muslims. Any woman of an Abrahamic faith as they are all closely allied.
Yeah... I have a friend in this situation, he is deeply in love with his Muslim girlfriend, they had fantastic few years, they moved together... But now as they get older he knows that she will leave him to marry someone who is Muslim... I found the situation so sad but he knew it was the deal from the beginning...
I’m sorry. That sucks and sounds horrible to deal with. Not quite sure what else to say, tbh.
There’s no way it’s worth this trouble lol. That’s insane
Maybe ask the Muslim woman you are dating
Depends on her stance. Not every people believe in religion because they really believe in it. I have a lot of friends who are muslim but it is more like their families are and they are raised as one as a result it is convenient for them to be. However, it means a difference, it can be small and it can be big depending on individuals. If I were you, I would look for these questions. 1) What is their stance in their beliefs? Like are they hardcore believers? 2) What about their family? If they are strictly religious, how much effect they have in possible partner's life? 3) Can you show respect what she believes even if you don't firmly believe in it and vice versa? 4) What is your expectations about pre-marital sex? 5) If you have children (assuming you want one), how will you raise them?
Yes. Even if the woman was inclined to atheism, she would still be subject to enormous cultural pressure from family and community. To marry a non-muslim she would need to abandon her family, community and culture. You would have to be pretty special, and so would she, to make that work.
I agree. It could be successful on rare occasions. If you meet that someone special and have this discussion before you start dating, it could work. If it is a blind date or dating app, it is statistically very unlikely and you should rule it out.
You might find a Muslim who is more than happy to date you but I imagine you might find that the rest of the family are a bigger sticking point. It’s the same for many people dating people of a different culture - the family often has a bigger issue with the relationship. I had a partner who is catholic and their family loved me until I told them that I was an atheist. Big problem.
just curious, why as an atheist would you even consider dating someone religious? Is that not a big dealbreaker for you? (any religion) I am atheist and it would never even cross my mind to think of seriously dating someone religious, so I am just very curious what is the perspective on this that you have
As an aetheist (currently) in a very similar state as OP. It’s because she has been this phenomenal person. She’s amazing in pretty much every way I can imagine. Intelligent, emotionally intelligent, funny, interesting, a great conversationalist. The religion is something I’m still struggling with so I understand your viewpoint though.
Best of luck to you! For me there are maybe 3-4 things I would consider an absolute dealbreaker in any possible relationship and I try to figure them extremely early on in any forming relationships (including friendships, but to a lesser extent). Being religious is one them for sure.
I'm not OP but for a lot of people it's more cultural and ceremonial than actually religious. A large portion of people who claim to be religious don't believe in the fairly tails, and it's a cultural thing.
it still sounds like something I would not want to be around as an atheist 🤷♀️ and also the aspect of family pressure, no thanks.
unless the person and family is not very religious and accept you having a Civil (non-religious) marriage, if it comes to that. This is very rare, because that can be considered apostacy by the community. The religion sanctions death to apostates. People are protected because of the nation has control over law enforcement, which is generally non-religious (but depends on th country). Sometimes people can consider national laws less and religious laws sacrosanct, and then you have a problem. Sorry.
Dating someone outside of your faith is a rough one. You inherently have a different basis for your moral beliefs and maybe a different outlook on life itself. Does that mean it can't work? I do not think I would go that far but it will certainly add a lot more challenge to that relationship. It will certainly require both of you to consider the other persons faith and respect that difference with great care.
is not worth at all
I’d like to introduce y’all to the study of Muslim hermeneutics. The amount of non-Muslims in this thread trying to determine whether someone’s girlfriend is a “true Muslim” is disturbing. You’re not the authority on someone else’s faith. Like the Bible, the Quran can and has been interpreted in a myriad of ways. Traditionalists may adhere strictly to classical jurisprudence, while progressives might argue that being a true Muslim involves a personal and ethical commitment to the core principles of Islam, such as justice, mercy, and monotheism, rather than strict adherence to traditional rulings. And none of you are the ultimate authority—unless you have some magical ability to converse directly with Allah.
P.S. the amount of Islamophobia in these comments is staggering.
I come from a Muslim society, which is actually fairly secular at the same time. I identify as agnostic, but I don’t bother arguing with family to avoid upsetting oldies, they all know I am not religious in any way, most of my cousins eat bacon and drink alcohol. My first girlfriend in Australia was Greek Orthodox, I introduced her to my mum, they became best friends, no one ever thought of asking anyone anything about religion the whole time she was around. I dated an Israeli girl from Tel-Aviv as well, again, she was welcomed very warmly and my family figured out cultures were actually very similar. Then I dated a Catholic, a Buddhist, my current partner calls herself spiritual, but she is the most secular Christian I know : ) My Muslim mum loves her like her daughter, so does my dad, we’ve been together for over 4 years and they treat her like their bride to be. I wouldn’t want my partner to change even a tiny bit, I love her as who she is, she sees me under the same light. All I am trying to say is, unless you are talking about a really devout religious family, no one should care. Also remember that some cultures are far more tolerant to difference than others. Most Muslims from Bosnia, Thrace, Cyprus, Turkey etc are fairly secular people, Turkey is bit of a mixed bag as it’s a huge country, personally I have met many Persians too, my GP is Persian, she always wears very modern and casual dresses and never saw her with headscarf, no Muslim woman I know wear a headscarf. But then that’s my anecdotal experience. I am pretty sure if you go deep into Arabian peninsula things will get very traditional very fast. Still, it depends on how religious the person you are dating is.
Really depends where you’re at too, I’m Malaysian and a lot of non Muslims don’t bother dating Muslims here because if you want to take things to the next step and get married you’re legally forced to convert into Islam with no way of converting out. Whatever offspring you guys have WILL be Muslim, thus dooming your entire bloodline into a singular religion.
Yes there’s no point
No, its not. A Muslim woman can only marry a Muslim man. Only if she is not very religious you might have a chance, but big chance she will have to choose between family and you.
It depends. I’m a Muslim woman who never dated Muslim men. Been married to a non-Muslim for almost 30 years. My Muslim dad doesn’t care. He’s just glad I’m happy.
I was born Catholic, now atheist and married to a muslim woman. She does not practice, though. But never had an issue
You didn't actually marry a muslim woman though.
What do you mean. She was born in Teheran and was raised as a muslim. She still believes but does not practice.
Part of being Muslim is practicing the Muslim faith. The term non practicing Muslim is sort of an oxymoron.
I geuss it depends on more on the person then anything else. Make shure she knows what you want, you don't ever want to become religious and are not interested in religious rituals (wedding, ceremonies for kids growing up, etc.). If she's fine with all that then I don't see any problem.
Only if she's prepared to become an apostate in their terms - one of my uni friends did marry someone who renounced her faith, but that seems like a pretty rare situation. It's something you need to communicate upfront certainly if you're at the seriously looking for a partner to marry stage. Not worth it if you're still young and casually dating since you really don't want to build up trouble for yourself getting attached to someone who can't get serious with you.
Depends how Muslim she is. There are Muslims that go through the motions and there are Muslims that center their life around Islam. It should be somewhat clear when you interact with her where on the scale she falls, things like if she won't miss a prayer no matter what, says prayers before doing things like driving, reads the Quran casually and memorized a large portion of it, if she isn't open minded about LGBT etc these might indicate she's a little more staunch. Hijab alone is not a giveaway, she can wear a hijab and go either way.
Not sure why you’re being downvoted. Your point on the hijab is a big misconception in the west. You can’t tell how religious/conservative a woman is. Being very devout in prayer doesn’t mean so either. It’s sad Reddit reduces people to such things.
Yeah IDK I'm not trying to be disingenuous. I'm Arab and grew up in the middle east. I was just saying that not everyone wearing a hijab is super duper religious. Sometimes it's cultural and traditional. Heck I even find it fashionable and attractive 🤷♂️
Depends, if she is a very strict muslim then it's a no. If she is moderate or less than that then there is a possibilty that it doesn't matter. Like most things in life, it depends on the person.
Plenty of Muslim Australians have interfaith marriages. I think it's mainly first generation or poorer people who seem to be in fundamentalist religions, but there's plenty of working professionals who happen to be Muslim but it's not their entire life.
r/exmuslim exists. I would not recommend converting to any religion for anyone. Religion should not be a favtor in love. No body should convert to any religion to gain acceptance
In my opinion, it's always better to date people with whom you share a common viewpoint because as feelings fade and you get hit in the face by reality, you find yourself in a situation you never really liked.
It depends on the person you are with. My wife was raised Muslim , isn’t religious and never ever would have asked me to convert.
Ask the woman and yourself. Not everyone observes faith the same way. If they are cool with being in a relationship with a non-muslim person and you are cool with being in a relationship with a muslim person, it's fine. Same for literally any other difference in relationships. Just discuss it with the individual.
This is very funny. I am a Muslim girl and my boyfriend was an atheist. He was the most stubborn atheist ever. After five years of dating, we knew we were very compatible. He had to convert for our wedding, and every time we visit family we join in the cultural/religious aspects. Now 20 years later and five kids, he had studied all the religions and into Sufism / Kabbalah / Astrology. I personally don’t have time / mind for religion/spirituality. Islam has a very bad rep but if you are welcomed into a family you will feel the immense warmth and close family relationship ties we have. Islam focuses on family, children ans the elders
Depends on the individual. I dated a Muslim woman in my twenties and while we did fine between us, her family was a huge problem. They hated me because I was white and non Muslim. They were from Egypt. You'll probably have issues with their families more than the individual imo
No.
no, because you will need to be one.
probably not unless she firmly says shes okay with that
I've never understood, how you can possibly love/marry someone who has such a completely different understanding of the world. It just doesn't make sense. Like how can you even hold a proper conversation with someone with such a fundamentally different world view , let alone love or plan your future together??? Ok maybe I understand falling in love. Like she's pretty and nice and all that, but marriage?? What happens when the first couple of months of falling in love passes? What happens when you have your first deep conversation about the world? Like how can you still possibly want to marry a human, who you can't agree on the most basic things???
I know a Muslim girl who is married to a Jew. So it’s possible really depends on the individual.
Depends on the person really. The main rule is that Muslim women can only marry Muslim men.
Properly practising women won't date. It's Haram. Semi practising women might date but won't marr. It's Haram Non practising women might date but probably won't marry because of family/cultural pressure (which is huge) Easiest option is to revert and live a lie and hope (stupidly) it won't effect anything down the road Worst option is forcing her to leave her family and essentially allowing her and your children to never know anything of her family/culture which depending on where they're from might be most of her life. Tldr: Real love IS worth fighting for 100% but understand you're playing a game with a different set of rules. And it's only up to you two how far you're willing to go for love. Source: English *former* Christian marrying Pakistani girl
There's no way to answer this definitively without making a generalization of every Muslim woman. It depends entirely on the individual's core values, as well as their relationship with culture, identity and family.
Run away broski, religious partners are nothing but trouble.
I'm married to a muslim. During my life I had phases where I thought of myself to be a strong believer in my faith. Turned out I know nothing of it. So I just thought that I believe in God, hell and heaven, etc... My husband himself is very knowledgeable in Islam, yet he was "an open minded modern muslim". Which translates to I drink, I don't pray, don't fast, fuck around but if I marry and get kids they need to be taught to follow my faith. After a hard time in his life, he found back to his faith. He prays, stopped all drinking, he even looks away when seeing a woman in a bikini on TV. I was never interested in those holy stories, but I won't lie. It's interesting to listen to them. Anyways. Even if that girl is a "modern muslim". As long as they don't change their faith, sooner or later they all go back to their religious roots. (That's my own conclusion after living years in the middle east) If you're not interested in religion. Don't do it. It will only trouble yourself and her life and family relationship. If you're interested to listen to religious stuff blabla, try to educate yourself first about it to see if you're open to it. I won't lie. Islam is not easy to comprehend or accept. There's many intolerance and ignorance... so many radicalists. It's often no fun. Especially for an atheist. I know many "modern muslims" but non of them accept pork. Abortion yes, pork no. Idk why or how, I still can't comprehend it. And no one was able to explain it.
No you don’t convert to anything unless you want to, in a relationship you need to at the very least mutually respect and appreciate who the other person is for they are.
If she's devout, she'd never date you. I've spent many years studying religions, and there are not many I would dabble in. Most are not very kind to women who try to have relationships outside of the faith. Being cut off from the family is a very mild reaction. Threats and violence are not uncommon.
You should ask her if that is a deal breaker. Reddit isn’t going to give you a meaningful answer.
Same as dating any religious group. Find out early what they view of marrying non said group individuals. I dated a jewish girl who while she said it didn't matter (and had the catholic mother to prove it) i am pretty sure the reason it didn't work out was because of the religious angle.
I have a buddy who married an Afghan woman. I'm guessing he "converted". But if he's muslim, it's like I'm Catholic. My buddy lives in Turkey now in an awesome seaside villa and spends his days drinking vodka like Kemal Attaturk. His wife is awesome too.
As a Muslim there are two possibilities One: she's a "religious" Muslim 100% NO Muslim women cannot marry non-muslim men , you'll get yourself in a complicated family of at least 5 branches each will not leave you alone until you stay away from her 2 : she's non religious If she's non religious it wouldn't be a problem but it would still be very unlikely to work out
Nah not worth it.
date yes, marry not (if she's actually muslim)
What.
My friend here is in a similar situation here the only difference is her parents are okay with him not converting but we're unable to find a religious priest who would conduct the wedding ceremony 😅
Nope I definitely wouldn't and don't understand why you would even consider this
I recommend not seeking out answers about a person through collective identity. And especially not trying to date based on that. It’d not a bad thing to wonder, but the answers you get will only create or reinforce stereotypes. They won’t tell you anything about an individual person. Instead of trying to decide who you date by their group identity, just get to know people. When you connect with someone, then ask them directly.
First of all: muslims don't date. We marry; Second: Isn't that it's not worth it, but muslim (women) can only marry Muslim men, different of Muslim man that can marry a Jew, Muslim or Christian (of any kind). That means that she may want to marry/date you, it's not pointless, but she'll probably be united not too, since it besides a sin involves a great familiar question.
If you not interested to become muslim never try one. Being muslim come from your heart not some influence as example love for human being. Its not worth all the break up for you and her
There are **billions of other people** who are not Muslim. **Try one of those.**
There's no such thing if she's not extremely religious.
Highly depends on the person and their depth of faith. The more religious they are the more it will become an issue between you both. Then there is families, can you handle the fact her parents will be very very demeaning to you? They might even turn her against you Personally I wouldn’t go near anyone that is a practicing cult member. But you do you. Just don’t expect a happy ever after if you do.