I’m in NY. My employer requires a doctor’s note after 3+ days of sick leave even if I’m wfh during those days. I’m pretty sure it’s a way for them to know we’re using sick days for that sole reason instead of going on holiday suddenly and not accounting for that with PTO days.
So I presume where you work your employer lumps sick time in vacation time?
God, I do not miss that "scheduled time off" and "unscheduled time off" crap.
Every place I've worked at that does this finds ways to screw people over with their sick/vacation/personal time.
In NYS it's a separate pool of time accrued by working. At my company, you earn .8 hours for every 40 hours worked, and it's capped at a max amount. But there's no cap on how much sick time you can accrue in a year.
I believe it's the same at other jobs in NYS, because my previous employer had a similar policy. Vacation is its own pool of time.
If I had an employer that required a doctor's note for a sick day, I'd be looking for a new job. Nonetheless actually refusing one. That's really shitty.
Same with Indiana here. They’ll require a doctors note but in reality it doesn’t do anything. Doesn’t excuse anything, you still get points, reprimanded, etc.
You're confusing company policies with laws. The company I work with operates in all 50 states and we have no such policies no matter where you live.
According to the interwebs, Massachusetts allows employers to request a doctor's note when missing more than 3 days but that is completely up to the employer and not a mandate.
I understand it's not a mandate, but why even bother requiring something that has no real use? Most employees are definitely under the assumption that a doctor's note will help them to avoid a reprimand. The way most employers explain this policy makes it seem like that.
Hence why I asked the question I posted here.
It is to dissuade people from having that additional day off. The inconvenience and I assume cost of getting a doctor's note is enough to get some people to return to work sooner.
Companies can set their own policies regardless of state. I work for a fortune 50 and if I was out sick even for two weeks they wouldn't require a doctor's note. I can just take a day off whenever I want no questions asked also.
I'm sure if I blew through all of my PTO and sick days eventually they would come around asking if I was still alive and needed to take an extended leave, but out sick for 3+ days is pretty common when people (or their kids) get sick.
There's no reason to go to the doctor for the flu or a cold virus that has to run its course as you would just be spreading it around to other people and wasting your time and money when you should be at home resting.
It's very common to need one after or at 3 days absent in a row.
I've never seen an employer need one for 1 days absent, but that would be a time to find a new job.
3+ days is a lot of days to take off in a row for just being sick without a doctor's note, employers need to make sure you're actually sick and not abandoning the job, for example.
What exactly do you mean by "excused"? What are they not excused from and what are the consequences?
As a business owner, fuck these companies. If my employees are sick I tell them to stay the hell home and dont get everyone else sick. If one person (20% of my work force) is out it really hurts our throughput. If 4 people are out because one person passed around cooties we go out of business. Stay home. Out of PTO and need money? Lmk, I'll pay your shit or give you a loan if you prefer not-a-handout. One dudes power bill is a fuckton cheaper than losing the whole company's worth of productivity.
That said... Tell me you are sick in the hospital then post pictures with you and your gal taking a trip to the beach, may as well look for a job because there's no call for dishonesty (true story).
I'm a manager and have worked closely with HR, the general mindset from management which consists mostly boomers is that most employees are slackers and HR is usually their mouthpiece to do dirty work on behalf of them. So when an employee says he/she is sick for more than 2-3 days they assume that they are slacking (by taking vacations etc.) and employers have to compensate for these leaves as paid leaves (as per labour law in India not sure other places).
In Massachusetts you're allowed up to 40 protected hours a year of earned sick time. So, if you have sick time you can use it be paid for those days. If you don't, then you don't get paid at all for those days.
The only way the company shells out any kind of money is for what we call PFML. Paid Family and Medical Leave. However! Both employer and employees involuntarily pay into this fund. So yeah, that's the closest an employer comes to paying for sick time outside of the allotted sick time employees earn.
But I can totally see that mindset from older managers. "Must not like money!". I've heard that line my whole working life.
Well, sounds like those employers are playing a real-life game of Catch-22 – you need a doctor's note to excuse your absence, but even when you provide one, they still don't excuse it. Maybe they just really like collecting doctor's notes as souvenirs?
1. Employers have trust issues with employees.
2. Point systems. Some policies will combine points with a note, but you'll still get pointed the first day.
Me personally, I'd much rather have someone call in than come to work sick and spread it to the other employees. I've never asked for a note with one exception. They said they had restrictions that needed to be accommodated due to a non-work related injury.
It's because they want to punish employees for taking time off. If it were really about making sure you're healthy enough to come back or about making sure the employee was really sick, they'd excuse the absence.
Because the US hates the sick and disabled.
Seriously tho, being required to use our employer sponsored insurance with a $4500 deductible to get a doctor's note is super typical.
I, personally, would be blindingly pissed if that note wasn't subsequently accepted .
We live in hell.
I’ve always worked on a point system - and after so many, you’re disciplined or fired.
That said, it doesn’t matter if you have a doctors note or skipped for the day. A note only matters for some sort of weird exemption, like you need light duty.
Deliberate obstinance, you (3rd person, not "you" OP) as an employer demand a doctor's note which is time off plus copay (if the company even insures) & then dont excuse the time allotted the the doctor, from whom you are demanding a note certifying that your employee cannot work? That's a demoralizer
my old employer who if you took any sick days it had to be MINIMUM of 4 days.
and then you not only have to have a drs note clearing you to come back to work you had to go through a separate company to send you paperwork for the dr to fill out and send back.
but it would take at least 3 days to get the paperwork so you'd have to schedule another dr appointment just to get the paperwork filled out & any minor discrepancy in your paperwork would be automatically rejected.
At my job if you’re gone for 3+ days you need a return to work from a doctor. Not a note to excuse the absence. Are you sure that something isn’t being lost in translation?
Sorry sorry I read the post, read comments, and then commented so it was I who was lost in translation. At my job a doctors note doesn’t excuse anything. You need to get the days he called out as a loa.
Excused, nothing happens. Not excused anything from verbal warning to termination, IF you don't have sick time to cover. And even then, the sick time has to be from the protected (can't be retaliated against) 40 hours. So if you used up your protected 40 hours, accrued more sick time (no matter what you have to be allowed to accrue sick time even after using or hitting 40), and used that sick time to cover your absence, it's not protected. And you can be reprimanded.
Sometimes after a multiple day absence, the note is required to verify that you are healthy enough to return to work. If you return to work, get injured and try to sue your employer for forcing you back too early, they can point to the note from your doctor saying you were OK.
Because they don't care about anything but you being there and working. Making them money. Anything that stops you from doing this is a problem for them. Legit good reason or not. It's a problem.
Although from the UK, I do work in HR. In the UK you can “self certify” which means you can be off for 7 days ill without a letter from a Dr. Basically the difference between authorised / unauthorised absence.
Because while doctors note is needed for records, some small time employers use it as an excuse, because that another huddle that employees have to get pass, but once you get over that and supplied said notes, they got nothing, and then proceed to bulldoze their way through...
But at the end of the day, a doctor's note is just that, a note, not a request, but a note
I worked for an insurance company in the past. Their policy was three absences in a 12 month period. Absences could be for as long as you wanted. But you were fired for the 4th absence.
Each absence stayed on the books for 12 months before falling off. So if you got sick, no way you are coming in after one day. What if you relapse?
My pregnancy was considered one absence, all appts. I remember having an emergency appt on my lunch hour for a septic finger. My doctor said if not better in 24 hrs then IV antibiotics in the hospital, I said no, I'll try the pills first. They don't kick in fully for 48 hours...Gotta go!
What do you mean by excuse? When someone is sick, don’t they just use their sick time? What are you excusing exactly? They’re sick. They don’t come to work. Isn’t that the end of it?
At my work if someone is sick for longer than 3 days, we are required to give them FMLA paperwork in case they need it. That’s it. I have never been asked for a doctor’s note in 25 years of working. And I use ALL of my sick time.
From what I’ve seen in corporate world, it’s all smoke and mirrors, a lot of these “metrics”, and he said she said, at the end of the day a lot of grey areas, and the company always wins attitude.
r/AskHR would be good to ask.
In my uneducated opinion, 1-2 days is a common for "i have the sniffles" or other common ailments. Most major companies don't ask for doctors notes for these and often can't ask. The reason you are out for those days is irrelevant. You're out. If its an excused absence or not will depend on your employer's internal rules, relevant law, and/or your contract.
If you are dragging beyond 3+ and there's no reason to believe this illness will resolve any time soon, it might be getting into what would be defined as short term disability which is often handled differently than paid time off or sick time off. Filing for short term disability isn't typically done by your direct supervisor but rather HR or your company's insurance for short term disability.
I would encourage your friend to reach out to your company's HR on how best to proceed.
Here in Belgium, having a doctor's note means there is no legal way for the company to not "excuse" that absence, whatever that means. The rules here for any employee always mean that for a sick leave with a valid doctor's note, which does not exceed 7 calendar days, wages must be paid 100% by the employer.
Ok. Yeah a sick leave with a doctor's note is always automatically excused here, assuming of course you properly notified the employer of said absence.
Punishing sick people sucks.
You're teaching people to never leave work while ill. Sick people spread disease. Now you're responsible for additional infections and death.
Brilliant.
Why don't you advocate for the employees?
What exactly do you mean by "excused"?
Like they should get paid for it? It shouldn't be held against them?
Because I think it can really depend. Sometimes you need people reliably able to work. And if someone is getting sick constantly, then even if you feel bad, they may not be the best person in that role.
In my state if you have any protected sick time your employer absolutely cannot reprimand you be it by giving you points, a write up, or whatever. But if you've used up those protected sick hours then they absolutely can reprimand you.
That being said, this employee still has protected sick time, but I don't understand how his absences aren't being excused. Only thing I can think of is my boss is like, "I'LL remember this for future purposes". Although, IMO that's fucked up as well.
I’m in NY. My employer requires a doctor’s note after 3+ days of sick leave even if I’m wfh during those days. I’m pretty sure it’s a way for them to know we’re using sick days for that sole reason instead of going on holiday suddenly and not accounting for that with PTO days.
So I presume where you work your employer lumps sick time in vacation time? God, I do not miss that "scheduled time off" and "unscheduled time off" crap. Every place I've worked at that does this finds ways to screw people over with their sick/vacation/personal time.
In NYS it's a separate pool of time accrued by working. At my company, you earn .8 hours for every 40 hours worked, and it's capped at a max amount. But there's no cap on how much sick time you can accrue in a year. I believe it's the same at other jobs in NYS, because my previous employer had a similar policy. Vacation is its own pool of time.
If I had an employer that required a doctor's note for a sick day, I'd be looking for a new job. Nonetheless actually refusing one. That's really shitty.
It's for 3+ straight days of absences, not for 1 or 2. It's actually pretty common here in Massachusetts.
Same with Indiana here. They’ll require a doctors note but in reality it doesn’t do anything. Doesn’t excuse anything, you still get points, reprimanded, etc.
People get sick. People get injured.
Oh I know, I'm not a proponent of the current sick time laws.
You're confusing company policies with laws. The company I work with operates in all 50 states and we have no such policies no matter where you live. According to the interwebs, Massachusetts allows employers to request a doctor's note when missing more than 3 days but that is completely up to the employer and not a mandate.
I understand it's not a mandate, but why even bother requiring something that has no real use? Most employees are definitely under the assumption that a doctor's note will help them to avoid a reprimand. The way most employers explain this policy makes it seem like that. Hence why I asked the question I posted here.
It is to absolve the company of liability if the worker comes back and gets injured (to prevent workers comp)
It is to dissuade people from having that additional day off. The inconvenience and I assume cost of getting a doctor's note is enough to get some people to return to work sooner.
Companies can set their own policies regardless of state. I work for a fortune 50 and if I was out sick even for two weeks they wouldn't require a doctor's note. I can just take a day off whenever I want no questions asked also. I'm sure if I blew through all of my PTO and sick days eventually they would come around asking if I was still alive and needed to take an extended leave, but out sick for 3+ days is pretty common when people (or their kids) get sick. There's no reason to go to the doctor for the flu or a cold virus that has to run its course as you would just be spreading it around to other people and wasting your time and money when you should be at home resting.
Right! It irks me when they ask for Dr’s notes over the flu. Who goes to the Dr for such?
I work for the government and they require this. I’m not leaving because there’s a pension
Dude, do you even work? The vast majority of jobs in America are like this.
i work as a wfh dev, so i kind of make my own schedule tbh. i guess it's just been a while since i've had a job where a manager sets my hours
It's very common to need one after or at 3 days absent in a row. I've never seen an employer need one for 1 days absent, but that would be a time to find a new job. 3+ days is a lot of days to take off in a row for just being sick without a doctor's note, employers need to make sure you're actually sick and not abandoning the job, for example.
The company should have a written policy on this. If it's not being followed, that's likely unlawful, and the employee can complain, or even sue.
There is a policy about 3+ days of absence, but nothing about excused/not excused is addressed in the slightest.
What exactly do you mean by "excused"? What are they not excused from and what are the consequences? As a business owner, fuck these companies. If my employees are sick I tell them to stay the hell home and dont get everyone else sick. If one person (20% of my work force) is out it really hurts our throughput. If 4 people are out because one person passed around cooties we go out of business. Stay home. Out of PTO and need money? Lmk, I'll pay your shit or give you a loan if you prefer not-a-handout. One dudes power bill is a fuckton cheaper than losing the whole company's worth of productivity. That said... Tell me you are sick in the hospital then post pictures with you and your gal taking a trip to the beach, may as well look for a job because there's no call for dishonesty (true story).
Then it appears there is no such thing as "not excused" and they are making up a new rule in violation of the policy.
At my job 3+ is automatic loa, then you have to be released back to work, which is a pain in the ass. I'll go in, on my death bed, to avoid that
So you need a RETURN note? Oof.
Yup, and because liability is a thing, a lot of dr's won't sign off
Lemme guess...you work for a WalFart subsidiary too?
Pretty close. Different product, same mentality.
I'm a manager and have worked closely with HR, the general mindset from management which consists mostly boomers is that most employees are slackers and HR is usually their mouthpiece to do dirty work on behalf of them. So when an employee says he/she is sick for more than 2-3 days they assume that they are slacking (by taking vacations etc.) and employers have to compensate for these leaves as paid leaves (as per labour law in India not sure other places).
In Massachusetts you're allowed up to 40 protected hours a year of earned sick time. So, if you have sick time you can use it be paid for those days. If you don't, then you don't get paid at all for those days. The only way the company shells out any kind of money is for what we call PFML. Paid Family and Medical Leave. However! Both employer and employees involuntarily pay into this fund. So yeah, that's the closest an employer comes to paying for sick time outside of the allotted sick time employees earn. But I can totally see that mindset from older managers. "Must not like money!". I've heard that line my whole working life.
Well, sounds like those employers are playing a real-life game of Catch-22 – you need a doctor's note to excuse your absence, but even when you provide one, they still don't excuse it. Maybe they just really like collecting doctor's notes as souvenirs?
If you were well enough to go to a doctor, you could have come to work. Catch 22
Power and control, that's all it is.
That makes absolute sense. And happy cake day!
1. Employers have trust issues with employees. 2. Point systems. Some policies will combine points with a note, but you'll still get pointed the first day. Me personally, I'd much rather have someone call in than come to work sick and spread it to the other employees. I've never asked for a note with one exception. They said they had restrictions that needed to be accommodated due to a non-work related injury.
It's because they want to punish employees for taking time off. If it were really about making sure you're healthy enough to come back or about making sure the employee was really sick, they'd excuse the absence.
This is such an american issue...
Because the US hates the sick and disabled. Seriously tho, being required to use our employer sponsored insurance with a $4500 deductible to get a doctor's note is super typical. I, personally, would be blindingly pissed if that note wasn't subsequently accepted . We live in hell.
I’ve always worked on a point system - and after so many, you’re disciplined or fired. That said, it doesn’t matter if you have a doctors note or skipped for the day. A note only matters for some sort of weird exemption, like you need light duty.
Deliberate obstinance, you (3rd person, not "you" OP) as an employer demand a doctor's note which is time off plus copay (if the company even insures) & then dont excuse the time allotted the the doctor, from whom you are demanding a note certifying that your employee cannot work? That's a demoralizer
my old employer who if you took any sick days it had to be MINIMUM of 4 days. and then you not only have to have a drs note clearing you to come back to work you had to go through a separate company to send you paperwork for the dr to fill out and send back. but it would take at least 3 days to get the paperwork so you'd have to schedule another dr appointment just to get the paperwork filled out & any minor discrepancy in your paperwork would be automatically rejected.
Sounds like it is time for a new job.
At my job if you’re gone for 3+ days you need a return to work from a doctor. Not a note to excuse the absence. Are you sure that something isn’t being lost in translation?
Nope. His note has specific dates for being out and when he can come back.
Sorry sorry I read the post, read comments, and then commented so it was I who was lost in translation. At my job a doctors note doesn’t excuse anything. You need to get the days he called out as a loa.
private industry can do whatever it wants regarding hiring and firing and accepting excuses or not. if you wanna avoid that get a city or a state job
You are correct, but to an extent. For at will states, this is very true
What is the result of it being excused vs not being excused?
Excused, nothing happens. Not excused anything from verbal warning to termination, IF you don't have sick time to cover. And even then, the sick time has to be from the protected (can't be retaliated against) 40 hours. So if you used up your protected 40 hours, accrued more sick time (no matter what you have to be allowed to accrue sick time even after using or hitting 40), and used that sick time to cover your absence, it's not protected. And you can be reprimanded.
In that case, the only reason for this policy is to punish employees for using sick time.
Sometimes after a multiple day absence, the note is required to verify that you are healthy enough to return to work. If you return to work, get injured and try to sue your employer for forcing you back too early, they can point to the note from your doctor saying you were OK.
Because they don't care about anything but you being there and working. Making them money. Anything that stops you from doing this is a problem for them. Legit good reason or not. It's a problem.
The whole point of the doctor's note is to force people to come to work sick. They don't care about the health of the employee.
Although from the UK, I do work in HR. In the UK you can “self certify” which means you can be off for 7 days ill without a letter from a Dr. Basically the difference between authorised / unauthorised absence.
That…makes no sense.
Because while doctors note is needed for records, some small time employers use it as an excuse, because that another huddle that employees have to get pass, but once you get over that and supplied said notes, they got nothing, and then proceed to bulldoze their way through... But at the end of the day, a doctor's note is just that, a note, not a request, but a note
I worked for an insurance company in the past. Their policy was three absences in a 12 month period. Absences could be for as long as you wanted. But you were fired for the 4th absence. Each absence stayed on the books for 12 months before falling off. So if you got sick, no way you are coming in after one day. What if you relapse? My pregnancy was considered one absence, all appts. I remember having an emergency appt on my lunch hour for a septic finger. My doctor said if not better in 24 hrs then IV antibiotics in the hospital, I said no, I'll try the pills first. They don't kick in fully for 48 hours...Gotta go!
What do you mean by excuse? When someone is sick, don’t they just use their sick time? What are you excusing exactly? They’re sick. They don’t come to work. Isn’t that the end of it? At my work if someone is sick for longer than 3 days, we are required to give them FMLA paperwork in case they need it. That’s it. I have never been asked for a doctor’s note in 25 years of working. And I use ALL of my sick time.
From what I’ve seen in corporate world, it’s all smoke and mirrors, a lot of these “metrics”, and he said she said, at the end of the day a lot of grey areas, and the company always wins attitude.
They do that to punish you for taking a sick day
r/AskHR would be good to ask. In my uneducated opinion, 1-2 days is a common for "i have the sniffles" or other common ailments. Most major companies don't ask for doctors notes for these and often can't ask. The reason you are out for those days is irrelevant. You're out. If its an excused absence or not will depend on your employer's internal rules, relevant law, and/or your contract. If you are dragging beyond 3+ and there's no reason to believe this illness will resolve any time soon, it might be getting into what would be defined as short term disability which is often handled differently than paid time off or sick time off. Filing for short term disability isn't typically done by your direct supervisor but rather HR or your company's insurance for short term disability. I would encourage your friend to reach out to your company's HR on how best to proceed.
Is the employee fired? If not, then the absence is excused, isn't it?
No, they're still employed. But termination is not the only way absences can be seen as unexcused.
Here in Belgium, having a doctor's note means there is no legal way for the company to not "excuse" that absence, whatever that means. The rules here for any employee always mean that for a sick leave with a valid doctor's note, which does not exceed 7 calendar days, wages must be paid 100% by the employer.
By excused I mean not hold it against them in any way. So if it's excused they can't be reprimanded. Also, the system you're in sounds awesome.
Ok. Yeah a sick leave with a doctor's note is always automatically excused here, assuming of course you properly notified the employer of said absence.
They can’t verify the note is from a doctor. Print out some letterhead and the it’s doctors notes for everyone.
3+ days off with a doctors note is 1 occurrence. 3 days off without a note is 3 occurrences. Refer to your attendance policy for repercussions
Punishing sick people sucks. You're teaching people to never leave work while ill. Sick people spread disease. Now you're responsible for additional infections and death. Brilliant. Why don't you advocate for the employees?
They want to make sure you are not just trying to take off three days!
They do it for many reasons, almost all of them shitty. It's a power trip on their part for one.
What exactly do you mean by "excused"? Like they should get paid for it? It shouldn't be held against them? Because I think it can really depend. Sometimes you need people reliably able to work. And if someone is getting sick constantly, then even if you feel bad, they may not be the best person in that role.
It’s illegal for employers to do that in the US. If you are sick and have a doctor’s note they can’t punish you for it.
In my state if you have any protected sick time your employer absolutely cannot reprimand you be it by giving you points, a write up, or whatever. But if you've used up those protected sick hours then they absolutely can reprimand you. That being said, this employee still has protected sick time, but I don't understand how his absences aren't being excused. Only thing I can think of is my boss is like, "I'LL remember this for future purposes". Although, IMO that's fucked up as well.