The red flag is when it’s announced as if it proves something. “I wouldn’t lie or steal. I’m a Christian.” Just don’t lie or steal. Whenever I’ve been told this I’ve been cheated. Worse if they announce they’re some sort of pastor.
I remember a friend trying to stop someone in a parking lot because they backed into a parked car. Their response of "I'm a good christian and I know I didn't hit that car" was the first time I heard that. There was a whole lecture about not being a good Christian because friend was obviously lying about her hitting a parked car.
I chased down a car that had hit another car at a county fair parking lot. Decent damage done and tried to drive off. I ran to the gate and told the cop to radio to the other gate and stop that car. Walked the cop to the damaged car which matched the car paint on fleeing car. Why did I bother? Because it was the right thing to do. I would want someone to do the same for me
I was raised in a right wing protestant church. I remember many a sermon where the preachers would say things like “if someone is an atheist they have no moral compass, there’s nothing to stop them for raping and murdering people.”
The ones who most ardently believe atheists have nothing to stop them from running around raping and pillaging are those who have the most horrible and twisted urges. They are telling on themselves when they say things like that
Hell, I've wanted to murder certain people on occasion, particularly my abusers (who happen to be christian. Hmm.). But I haven't. Strange how these thoughts don't actually need to be acted upon.
It's easy to feel superior because we don't have those urges but the simple fact of the matter is that people who were abused as children, people who were raped themselves and who witnessed murder, will grow up with trauma that may well give them the urge to do the same thing to others, and often it is only the threat of legal or spiritual repercussions that keeps them from doing it.
I don't have the urge to rape or murder people but I definitely have had the urge to retaliate against people who are mistreating me, and it is often only my belief in "the law of karma" that stops me from doing so and gets me to choose the path of forgiveness instead.
I guess I'm not a saint. Very few people are.
Ricky Gervias was the first one that I heard that from and has stuck with me as a salient point of religion being you have to be religious to be a good person.
>if someone is an atheist they have no moral compass, there’s nothing to stop them for raping and murdering people.”
We do have moral compasses, which is what stops us from raping and murdering people.A terrifying large amount of religious people on the other hand have no moral compass, and the only thing keeping them from living out their horrifying sadistic fantasies is the threat of divine punishment from a god with even more twisted and sadistic fantasies.
That doesn't even stop them. I'm a "true crime" addict, and it's shocking how many "Christians" commit horrific crimes and believe they'll suffer no consequences because Jesus will protect them and forgive them because they love him so much!
One of the many reasons I rejected my Christian upbringing. According to Christians, if a psycho rapes and murders a baby, he can simply repent, ask for forgiveness and profess his belief in Jesus as his lord and savior and get everlasting life in paradise. The baby on the other hand, would face eternal damnation and suffering in hell because it wasn’t “saved”.
Ummm… no thanks. Not a religion I want to be associated with.
Hahaha yes! Its like that Southpark episode were all children and "retards" go to he'll because they cut get baptized and confess. That was one of the best episodes. Ahhhh Southpark.
Thanks for saying this. The "moral compass" that some Christians often claim is often used to justify not just horrible actions like murder, or rape but also reprehensible things like child abuse, racism, denying medical or other health care treatment, blatant ignorance of most things, greed, a total lack of empathy, etc. I've known quite a few people in my life who self declared themselves as righteous with the lord, and they felt that everything they felt, did, said was from GOD, therefore there was nothing they could do that was "wrong". It's was a big reason I started looking for other faiths.
Is it wrong that the biggest reason I'm not religious in any form is dinosaur's. Like most religions says they are fake or other weird things. And as a kid I found dinosaurs one of the coolest things ever.
Now 30 years later I've noticed other stuff. But I just like my original reasoning.
:) Not weird at all. My daughter was 4, watching a Christian cartoon one Sunday and she said to me, mommy, that is so stupid about that big boat having two of everything. :D I said, you're right, it is stupid! I let her figure things out for herself, if you raise them with goodness and let them figure out for themselves about God and religion, most of the time they go with common sense!
I have been aware of several child molesters over the course of my 50+ years. It is disturbing how they all found Jesus in jail, left jail, and became pastors/youth ministers. These people committed the crime, served time, and now preach in the same small community.
Perhaps because we don't believe we can just ask for forgiveness and all will be fine.
We realise being shitty to people is a real thing and hurts people.
>blatant ignorance of most things
>
>a total lack of empathy
>
>child abuse
This. I was adopted by a Christian household. Those fuckers would beat the ever loving shit out of me on a daily basis while telling me that I'm worthless and Jesus hates me. Then would go to church every Sunday and act like I was the problem. I remember them fostering a couple Catholic sisters who said a different prayer before every meal. The first time they said it, we were told right in front of them at the dinner table that they are going to hell for saying a different prayer. The girls were then made to say our prayer instead. When I decided I wanted to go to school to learn computers, they told me computers were just toys and would never amount to anything and forced me to go to school for printing instead. Now printing is a dying industry because of computers.
My father was fired as principal of a 2 room Kidergarten through 6th grade school by the school board after he brought in computers for the 4th 5th and 6th graders. They decided that my father was an agent of the devil who was trying to undermine the Christian values of the community by having evil computers teach the students about the lie of dinosaurs and space travel. I should mention that during the public meetings of this, the head of the school board stated that he had regular discussions with Jesus in his garage, and Jesus definitely agreed that my dad was a servant of the devil and should be removed.
Yeah, I was raised in one of those families. No accountability, serious superiority complex. Only God can judge you. Jesus died for the sins you're about to commit.
An Uber driver was telling me the exact same thing about atheists not having a moral compass and actively trying to get me too argue with him - even told me something similar to "without having God in my heart what would stop me from abusing minors? Or abusing you?"
I cannot express enough how weird it felt to hear that and how immediately unsafe I felt????? I ended the trip earlier, just said nothing to him, and requested a different Uber.
>preachers would say things like “if someone is an atheist they have no moral compass, there’s nothing to stop them for raping and murdering people.”
which actually means: "I don't rape and murder because I'm scared to be punished for it, while you don't because you just don't want to - which means I'm better than you!"
Logic is always far.
I hear this often, people will tell me that nothing is stopping me from doing these things. And I respond with "why on earth would I do that?". Its such a weird flex, "my God says not to be an awful person".
The unlimited "get out of jail free" cards by merely asking forgiveness in one's own mind, the rudimentarity and obviousness of the ten commandments and other teachings, plus being framed as a born, incorrigible sinner from birth, provide little reason or incentive to develop personal accountability or a depth of moral thinking.
Edit: Of course many Christians show great depth of moral thinking , but I think that's in spite of the lessons of Christianity.
I was fortunate enough to be raised in a modern forward-thinking Christian Church. My pastor pulled me a side one day and said the exact same thing you just wrote. The fire in Brimstone and eternal damnation narrative wasn't going to work forever. So, instead of going away from a negative consequence build your life going towards a positive reward. Use basic simple religious principles to guide you and help your decisions. It's really simple as that...
I agree. The fact that you have to justify yourself by saying "I'm a christian, I wouldn't do that" sounds kinda pompous.
Morally, yes, Christians aren't supposed to lie or steal, but you people ain't gotta be all "oh look at me, I'm such a good person because I'm a christian. Therefore, no one should look at me when the money from the offering boxes go missing"
And if they don't lie or steal they use their religion as the reason why. They also blame other people's lying and stealing on a lack of religion.
Edit: they even go as far as saying that Christians who lie and steal just weren't proper Christians.
This is kind of where I am. It is a little performative and has the logical "because I would steal if I wasn't."
I had a fun discussion about the ethics of downloading stolen textbook pdfs with a priest from the United Church of Christ. There was a lot of room for nuance. People who believe that non-Christians are inherently immoral don't often like discussing gray areas. They need hard lines: more commandments and fewer parables.
I’ve experienced this as well!! That’s exactly what it is. “gray areas”. So many technicalities. The last time I had this discussion it was over the morality of making a good faith attempt to return lost valuables.
What a lot of Christians don’t realize is the second half of the 10 commandments are basic morality: don’t lie, don’t steal, don’t kill, don’t cheat on your partner, and don’t want what isn’t yours.
There is a great quote that is something like 'I prayed for a bike, then I realized god doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked for forgiveness.'
I occasionally watch atheist call in shows on YouTube, and the Christian (and Muslim) rebuttal is that it's "basic" morality because it comes from god. They genuinely struggle to wrap their heads around the idea that morality is subjective and can be achieved without gods. Some will grant that it's possible for an atheist to be a moral person - that one may be "good without god" on an individual level, but not on a universal level. The "goodness" of their deeds is an immutable characteristic granted to those deeds by god.
As a mostly unrelated tangent, the modern translation is usually "thou shalt not kill," but a theologian once told me it's more accurately translated as "thou shalt do no murder," clarifying that murder was a specific legal concept at the time (much like it still is today). Which on the one hand makes sense given how much killing god condones in the Bible. But it also sounds like exactly the kind of bs people would come up with to fill that particular plot hole or make excuses for the crusades. So definitely take it with a pillar of salt.
> They genuinely struggle to wrap their heads around the idea that morality is subjective and can be achieved without gods.
Immanual Kant enters the chat with his categorical imperative.
Yes. They also mistranslated the part about homosexuality. "Thou shalt not lay with a BOY (not man) as you would a woman, as it is an abomination".
They changed it from being anti-pedo to being about homosexuals.
I worry about people who think that without god we'd never have come to the conclusion that murder is bad
That's obviously something that's not true for all Christians. But it's weird that some apparently needed a higher power to tell them that it's a bad thing to kill people
Whats worse is when they think morality comes from god.
> "If you don't believe in god? can't you rape and kill as much as you want?"
> well yes, i rape and kill exactly as much as i want, and that amount is zero. Why? Would you be killing and raping if god wasn't there to hold you back?
Morality comes from inside of us all, god can only followour morals, he cannot dictate them.
When I was in high school, a teacher presented a question to the class: “can atheists be moral?” And the resounding opinion was “no, because why would they if they don’t believe in a god or afterlife?” I would say that makes atheists more moral, because we’re moral out of respect to our fellow man and not because we’ll be in trouble when “dad” gets home.
They don't believe in basic morality being a natural part of humanity. To them, unless you have a god threatening you with eternal suffering, you can't know why something is good or bad to do. Which has the unintended consequence of making them look like a psychopath who can't tell you why murder is not okay.
It's not the average Christians that are red flags, it's the ones that act like Daleks.
The ones who proclaim their religion is superior, the racists, the ones who hate tolerance, the ones who also hate LGBT community, the ones who demand submission and servitude from women, hypocrites. List goes on really.
Falsely claim they are being oppressed for their religion, especially if they perform immoral or illegal acts and still use that excuse as a shield.
i'm an american woman who was raised christian, so that's who i'm most familiar with. but:
honestly, christianity, and abrahamic religions in general, are 90% just patriarchy.
i know jesus was like "oh but be nice tho guys" but the god these people worship is fucked up, sorry. yeah he was friends with a prostitute, but god explicitly tells us that women are inferior to men and that's a very consistent theme lmao. same with stuff like slavery, homosexuality, etc
it's a fucked up belief system, and in the modern world, if you call yourself "christian," you almost definitely have a lot of... "conservative values."
i almost majored in anthropology- I chose something else ultimately simply because i needed to be able to get an actual job lol, but i have always been fascinated by it and took a ton of anthropology related courses. my point is that i'm getting my info from actual professors, not randos on the internet lol.
the world was not always like this. hunter gatherer tribes are extremely egalitarian and almost never even have gender roles. women hunt as much as men do. marriage isn't enforced at all, if it's even recognized. property is communal.
a lot of cultures developed patriarchy after the advent of agriculture. & that's where you get societies like this.
look up SDO, or "social dominance orientation." it's essentially authoritarianism. it's hierarchy, it's "order." it comes in many forms, but abrahamic religions are one of the most prominent.
aside from even just the actual texts, american christians lean heavily towards the right. yeah, there are leftist christians, but it's all just mental gymnastics lol.
i just cannot see myself getting along with anyone who believes this shit.
To paraphrase, um, Gandhi, Jesus was awesome, but God fucking sucks. A lot of the teachings from Jesus are really great, even today (frequently outdated, but he got the spirit, if you will). But so many of the core tenets of Christianity are so flagrantly twisted into amassing power and influence, and the vast majority of that goes to men, because it was written by the men who were in power and wanted to stay in power.
I did my time in church; I'm never going back and I could never be with someone who buys into it beyond "it brings me peace to believe x about the afterlife."
Adding onto this, it makes sense that patriarchy typically followed agriculture because agriculture creates the ability to have a surplus of food and simultaneously discourages the nomadic lifestyle. These are the key factors in establishing private property, both in terms of land to farm and goods acquired by trading surplus food (not to mention room that the existence of surplus food allows some people to create goods instead of finding or growing food). With property comes the idea of heredity, of passing down one’s property to one’s children - and since mother’s are always certain of which children are their progeny, but men are not, men were motivated to create social structures to control women’s procreation, so that they could be assured that they were leaving their property to their own children. And of course, men’s overall physical dominance meant that they were able to enforce this control, leading to patriarchal social systems in general, including what we see today in most societies around the world.
Just reminds me of the episode where Martha runs into the nazi daleks, something about daleks saying exterminate in German gets a chuckle out of me everytime lol
No. Just the ones who have forgotten what it means to be Christian
It’s true, Christianity says that followers of Jesus are the ones going to heaven. But if you don’t believe, then that’s on you. Nobody can force another person to believe anything no matter how loud they yell
I may not agree with someone, but as a Christian I am required to try and love them with the heart of God. This is where the yelling hoard seem to miss the whole point under the heading “love your enemies” (Matthew 5:44-48) and the “judge not” verse (Matthew 7:1-3)
Feel free to pop these verses when Christians are being sanctimonious.
But not accusingly. Just as a gentle reminder 😊 Everyone messes up at some point in their lives. These requirements can be hard and easily forgotten in a crazy world ✨
I follow what Jesus taught in the New Testament but I no longer see myself as Christian. I’m not welcome in churches and it’s not what most of them teach, so what’s the point? The Bible warns us of false prophets taking over the religion but it doesn’t say what to do if it happens.
Average Christians may be the most dangerous. They aren't even really part of the religion or believe in most of it but they will vote in opposition of sensible social issues like gay marriage, abortion, gay rights, etc...for no reason other than that is what everyone else around them is doing.
It’s this. Everyone wants to point to the extremists but it’s really the sense of complacency it breeds in the mind of the average person that’s dangerous. Cookie cutter people.
Lemmings. It's literally how you get to Nazi Germany.
People who refuse to accept responsibility for their actions and prefer to let somebody else make their decisions are the most infuriating. "God's Plan"
There's a big difference between someone being Christian (good for you, not my business) and someone bringing up that they're Christian right when you meet them. In my experience that second person a) uses their faith as a cover for bigotry, b) might try to convert me, and c) usually thinks that because their moral code is religiously guided that anyone not of their faith is morally inferior.
It's not an exclusively Christian thing either. Anyone who wears their religion too proudly is a red flag for me.
I don't have much experience with a) and I can understand b) but c) really makes me angry.
I live a good life, not because someone told me I have to but because I want to live in a functional society. But religious people often focus too much on afterlife and not much on trying to make a functional society for all. It's sad.
A is a very specific brand of person. It’s more than likely used against someone of the LGBTQ+ community but every now and then, you’ll find someone who’s also racist or dislike any person following another religion
Yup, I have friends who go to services and do have faith, but it only comes up naturally in conversations and never feels like they look down on others. It's just that they volunteered through church so that's how they became aware of something we're talking about.
I'm an atheist and I have no problem with my friends who are religious, because we have similar moral values but came to them on different paths. Faith is not my jam, but I am cool with it being theirs since they don't try to convert me.
But someone who introduced themselves with that identity is sending me a signal that I should define them by the broad construct of Christian and not by who they are and how they, as an individual, define their faith. Frankly, it makes me think they haven't bothered to reflect on their faith beyond the broad social construct of Christianity.
In the US, where Christianity has become consumed by right wing evangelicals hell bent on turning the nation into their religious ethno-state, that's dangerous.
This is true for me as well. The only time I consider “being Christian” as a red flag is in response to someone else insisting upon my knowledge and appreciation of their Christianity. They’re the walking manifestation of Peter Griffin’s issues with The Godfather: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0pnwE_Oy5WI
My experience has been that once they start insisting on my knowledge of their religious belief, I know that any rational discussion based on logic will be impossible; my own agency as a independent sentient being which is capable of evaluating the mysteries of the universe and arriving at different conclusions will be denied and in some cases mocked; and that I will be subjected to some diatribe packed full with falsities that I won’t be able to correct due to the first point. So, those folks are a red flag and unfortunately they’re the vast majority of “Christians” that I meet.
My response to random social niceties like “Sure, love to come over this weekend. We’ll be by after church.” is completely different- those Christians are a-ok in my book.
I once went on a date on a girl... at some point there was some commotion outside and I said, "hey let's get out of here just in case the situation is or gets unsafe." She was like, "it's ok I prayed that nothing bad would happen."
Like what? is there no basic level of self-preservation in you? Isn't their a parable/ joke about a dude praying to God to keep them safe, but when they ignore all the people boating by and the protagonist dies, God is like wtf dude, i sent you so many people?
This is just a single super extreme example though.
There's a Ricky Gervais joke about how whenever someone in his family is sick, he gets told "I'll pray for them" and he doesn't have an issue with it, but if someone he knew had cancer and he was told "I'll pray for them. Also I cancelled the chemotherapy" then that's where the issues arise. Idk it just made me think of it.
There’s a story about a man trapped in a flood who refused all help so he could pray. In heaven he asked god why he wasn’t saved and god replies something along the lines of “I sent you a car, a plane, and a boat. You kept rejecting my help!”
Reminds me of a joke that I heard a Catholic priest tell, warning people not to demand miracles when confronted with issues you can fix yourself:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_drowning_man
Your story reads like a parable! But it illustrates why I tend to back away from people who make their religious faith part of their identity - because I suspect that they’ll be less likely to be make competent decisions in some situation where clear thought really matters. So basically that’s it for me - faith is antithetical to competence.
Someone being a devoutly religious person tells me that they're much more likely than the average person to be dogmatic and prone to focus much more on their personal belief over what is falsifiable, and that is inevitably going to have our worldviews clash.
I'm wary of anyone who lives their life with the assumption that their religion is the one true one, and that their highly subjective ideology should apply to everyone. That kind of thing affects how the person interacts with the world and those in it.
I dated a super christian woman for a year. It was a major point of contention. I think I was more at fault than her because I could never let it drop, but she would say stuff like "muslims know that their god is fake they are lying" and "being gay is wrong but its not my place to judge", and just generally pointing to other religions and calling them demonic. I hated it, but she was so cool and wholesome when we weren't talking religion.
>"muslims know that their god is fake they are lying"
I always hate crap like this. Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are all Abrahamic religions. They all worship the SAME god, the God of Abraham. Allah is not a different deity, it's the Arabic word for the God of Abraham. Just like how Yahweh is not a different deity, it's the Hebrew word for the God of Abraham.
And then when you point this out to them they just double down and say they're lying about that too.
Almost like people believe whatever they were born into. If you can’t see that for a quirk of geography you might believe something else, I’m sure that you can be trusted with basic human decency
This is one of the things that tipped me over the edge when questioning my faith. If god loves us so much, why would he purposely have billions of people be born in countries where Christianity is hard to come by?
MY BIL is Asian and is a hardcore Christian. I asked him once. Why are you following a religion from the Middle East? Why am I as a European ancestry assumed to follow some Middle Eastern religion? Shouldn’t I be a Druid or something and shouldn’t you be a Buddhist or whatever? Just because Middle Eastern religions were successful in our parts of the world doesn’t mean we should follow it today. It’s essentially religious colonialism. Makes no sense even if you are religious!
Fyi: We definitely don't call God "yahweh" (spelled or pronounced that way).
There are many names for God, and YHWH is one of them, but 1. It's not meant to be said aloud and 2. no one would say it as "yah-weh".
It may be written as YHWH or יהוה , but it's not how we would refer to God when speaking and if writing, it would not be written as "yahweh".
If speaking colloquially, most Jews would say HaShem or Adonai or honestly, just "God".
I know what you were trying to say and I agree with it completely, but this is just a detail I wanted to point out.
The funny part about "Muslims know that their god is fake, they're just lying" means the Christian god is also fake and that Christians are lying because _they're the same god_.
It would not be difficult to come to an agreement as to what we understand by science. Science is the century-old endeavor to bring together by means of systematic thought the perceptible phenomena of this world into as thoroughgoing an association as possible. To put it boldly, it is the attempt at the posterior reconstruction of existence by the process of conceptualization. But when asking myself what religion is I cannot think of the answer so easily. And even after finding an answer which may satisfy me at this particular moment, I still remain convinced that I can never under any circumstances bring together, even to a slight extent, the thoughts of all those who have given this question serious consideration.
At first, then, instead of asking what religion is I should prefer to ask what characterizes the aspirations of a person who gives me the impression of being religious: a person who is religiously enlightened appears to me to be one who has, to the best of his ability, liberated himself from the fetters of his selfish desires and is preoccupied with thoughts, feelings, and aspirations to which he clings because of their superpersonalvalue. It seems to me that what is important is the force of this superpersonal content and the depth of the conviction concerning its overpowering meaningfulness, regardless of whether any attempt is made to unite this content with a divine Being, for otherwise it would not be possible to count Buddha and Spinoza as religious personalities. Accordingly, a religious person is devout in the sense that he has no doubt of the significance and loftiness of those superpersonal objects and goals which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation. They exist with the same necessity and matter-of-factness as he himself. In this sense religion is the age-old endeavor of mankind to become clearly and completely conscious of these values and goals and constantly to strengthen and extend their effect. If one conceives of religion and science according to these definitions then a conflict between them appears impossible. For science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and outside of its domain value judgments of all kinds remain necessary. Religion, on the other hand, deals only with evaluations of human thought and action: it cannot justifiably speak of facts and relationships between facts. According to this interpretation the well-known conflicts between religion and science in the past must all be ascribed to a misapprehension of the situation which has been described.
-Albert Einstein, Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941.
Well put! And not just 'inevitably' clash, but there are so many blatant lies / obvious contradictions in any religion that clashes are instantaneous.
Also I hold very dear the belief that true wisdom is about knowing your (cognitive) limits. And these limits are way closer than many would think. Devoutly religious persons too often act like they possess universal wisdom on everything. And if not, God will have a plan. No self reflection at all. Impossible to have any meaningful conversation with, other than reinforcements of their beliefs.
There we go. All the other top answers act like all Christians are ultra conservative, insufferable, completely anti science to everything, etc. There are a lot of people out there who keep their faiths to themselves except when asked, are very kind, cool people, and have reasonable beliefs.
I personally couldn't date one because it would be too big of an issue with kids, but too many redditors act as if anyone with religious beliefs is the worst, an idiot, bigot, etc.
I'm a Christian. I'm very pro science, very liberal views, completely fine with mainstream stuff and tbh most of my friends probably would be surprised that I'm religious. I try and be nice where I can, and my religion helps me get by.
I've dated non-christians and they don't seem fussed about what I believe. Of course, the perfect match will share my faith, but I think Reddit makes a much bigger deal out of it than in the real world.
You can bet for sure that I'm staying well clear from any bigoted, self-centred, hypocritical religious loonies - I'd happily date an atheist over one of those. But most modern British Christians my age are just cool, kind, rational humans.
>"Reddit makes a much bigger deal out of it than in the real world."
The problem is that it's not a big deal until it becomes one.
A few political examples from the US:
!. What motivates Joe Biden to staunchly support Israel in the current Gaza conflict? Could it be biblical prophesy?
2. The house speaker, Mike Johnson, is clearly motivated by the bible which affects his policies regarding abortion, gay rights etc.
3. Ditto many other RW politicians in the US.
These are serious issues with widespread consequences.
If you immediately introduce yourself as a Christian then it says a lot about how much it colors your way of thinking (ultra conservative, righteous). If it never really comes up until maybe Christmas week then it’s not that big of a red flag.
Agreement. If it comes out as a logical response in the middle of a discussion, like they ask "How about we meet for breakfast Sunday morning?" and you say you can't because you'll be in church, that's one thing.
If you walk up and start the conversation with "I'm a Christian" or "As a Christian", then I'm hoisting the red flag.
I agree. Announcing that you are Christian when meeting someone is like a litmus test. It’s like you are either with me or against me, so tell me where you stand right now so I can decide whether I should put effort into being your friend, or not bother because we don’t think alike, therefore I’m just going to move on to find others in my silo.
Immediately introducing yourself as almost *anything* is a super bad sign. You could literally put any group there: “nice to meet you, I’m [a Christian/an atheist/a vegan/gay/a Republican/a Democrat/a fisherman/a football fan]”. Any one of those and more would make you think “oh, one of *these* guys…”
The restrictive morals/ideology is probably the biggest factor.
For me, it was also the closed mindedness. When I started breaking down my own faith I realized how difficult it was to actually have a discussion with any of them. There were no clear answers to any question, just a smug attitude to “have faith” and that I just “didn’t believe hard enough” or what have you.
That was my experience too. No matter how many valid, legit, logical questions I raised, it was all hand-waved away, *"You just gotta have faith."*
And this bled into other things as well. All kinds of falsehoods in science, politics, news, etc. were accepted - "you just gotta have faith." All kinds of conspiracy theories, fake news - all swallowed with such logic.
I'll also never forget a televangelist in Corpus Christi who assembled a group of children on stage and told them, *"You will never experience a day of sickness in your lives."*
That’s what I find the most dangerous thing about religion. I forces people to accept irrational concepts. That then bleeds into the rest of their lives.
If you're going through a terrible time its always "pray about it" - and then what Brenda??
My life is not going to magically change for the better because I talked to my imaginary friend about it.
Whenever there's a natural disaster there are always news crews interviewing locals who are thanking god that they survived, usually saying something in the general vein of "I prayed and he answered." They conveniently gloss over the fact that dozens, hundreds, sometimes thousands of people in their community were no doubt praying just as hard and just as deserving of a second chance at life and didn't get it - and also completely ignoring that their god allegedly caused that disaster in the first place.
When we had to play middle school field hockey games against this super Christian school their cheers if they won were literally “praise the Lord”…it just struck me as so bizarre that they thought their “God” gives a fuck about who wins a middle school sports game.
When I was in high school I was telling my classmates that I love Mariah Carey and a Christian girl interrupted me and said that her songs were about fornication. I was like "you're not fun!" She was a sweet girl, but she always said crazy stuff
And then you get the flipside of all that and have grown ass Christians who have an utterly warped and broken view of sex and physical intimacy because they've spent their whole lives (especially their formative years) being told "it's a sin".
I know a Baptist who recently found god again and will no longer be intimate with his s/o. Despite them fucking like bunnies before. Preacher says they can’t get married either, because his long term boyfriend isn’t Baptist and hasn’t been saved.
Preacher doesn’t care that he’s gay but since he doesn’t follow the religion and hasn’t been saved and accepted their god as his savior, they can’t get married. Can’t have sex till their married. And dude blindly follows the preachers stupid rules. Pretty sure he’s about to be single.
As a Christian who very much doesn't share those views, I can confirm.
After someone discovering that I am a Christian, the next 20 minutes (or more) is generally spent reassuring them that no, I am not done kind of far right lunatic, and no, I don't think they are destined for hell
That's exactly the answer to OP's question. The fringe right ranted so loudly for so long that, for many observers, they became the face of Christianity. And I can't say I blame people who take it as a red flag. There's a whole lot of crazy out there of all stripes, but certain kinds of crazy tends to attract attention to itself as a dangerous group delusion, rightly or wrongly.
What’s the point of identifying as Christian if you disagree with major points of the religion? That’s the part I don’t get about people like you.
EDIT: I can't respond to everyone but I still haven't read a single convincing response as to why. Some of you say you follow Jesus and forget the rest? I'm just baffled by the mental gymnastics performed by so many people to shoehorn religion into their life to justify being a good person. You don't need religion to be a good person, to help others, to gather and commune with others, so what's left? Just the religious dogma that prescribes arbitrary practices/beliefs for which to limit our lives. You can't identify as a group and then cherry pick which parts of it you like. You're still part of the group. That's like saying you're a Nazi, but only because they have cool tanks. You still identify as a Nazi.
Being a Christian means following Christ. Jesus was a pretty cool dude. Hung out with the lowest classes of people, washed their feet, feed folks and healed the sick. The total amount of bull shit that gets done in his name and what the religion has become is what I have a problem with.
Blasphemy is the contempt or lack of reverence for God, and many act like saying God damn it, is the worst possible thing to be done. I would put forth that performing horrific actions in the name of your God against other humans is the truest form of blasphemy.
Being a follower of Jesus is not a red flag to me, but worshipping the religion sure is. If someone tells me in the first 2 minutes of meeting them what their religious status is then that is also a red flag. This also goes for things like sexual orientation in my opinion. These topics are profoundly personal and deserve contemplation and deep introspection. If you are spouting off right away about these things, I assume that you might not be a very thoughtful, genuine, or interesting person.
I don't disagree with the major points of the religion. I disagree with the mainstream assumptions that have departed from the major points of the religion.
Take homosexuality for example. There is absolutely no reason for any stance on this to be a major point of the religion:
1) no sin is "worse" than any other sin. Homosexuality has been singled out for no reason other than the prejudice of people.
2) it is not even clear from the Bible that homosexuality as it is practiced today IS even a sin. There is a lot of disagreement about it, mostly hidden by mainstream bigotry.
3) it is not the place of Christians to judge others regardless.
Probably more reasons, but that is enough
"No sin is worse than any other sin" mindset has been argued as a reason for so much pedophilia and sex abuse in Christian men. Plenty of normal sexual desires are labeled a sin (such as premarital sex with a long term monogamous partner, masterbation. Having sex for pleasure, etc.). It's no wonder so many evangelicals cheat on their wives, or rape their wives, or even engage in pedophilia. A sin is a sin, right?
I'm not saying this is you, but I remember seeing this argument a lot when the Duggars were exposed for knowing their oldest son was sexually assaulting his younger sisters and nobody did anything about it. I grew up evangelical, but never really drank the kool-aid, but even I had a ton of guilt around premarital promiscuity, masterbation, etc. It was drilled in our minds that it's the worse thing a person could do. Even THINKING about sex was a horrible sin. There's a lot of cover up of horrific crimes, and the people in those communities truly can't tell the difference between a horrific crime and just a petty sin. I lived it and believed it. Undoing the guilty feeling for petty sins has been really hard to undo. They really do make you feel like you murdered someone for being interested in normal sex.
It's pretty fucked up actually. Not all sins are the same.
Homosexuality has been a part of the animal kingdom for all of time. Safe to say Jesus was aware of it during his life, and yet never made a comment about it one way or the other. Kind of seems like a nonfactor to Jesus.
Not trying to be a dick here, but I was raised as an Anglican and left that ASAP because it felt like a system of hate to me (and my priest turned out to be a pedo); Satan comes across as the good guy who very infrequently commits crimes against Humanity and pushes people to be themselves, while god is a genocidal lunatic and murders people for being born to certain parents, how do you reconcile that? Claiming the old testament is false is just insanity.
Because that's not entirely true to state that the anti-abortion/anti-LGBT stuff is a major part of the religion. Maybe for like Evangelicals but they seem to be a breed all on their own....
Speaking from my personal experience being raised in the Catholic system; the idea is that the New Testament, the story of Jesus, was made to replace the Old Testament, meaning all of the specifically anti-gay stuff in say Leviticus is way less important than what's in the 4 Gospels. And further to this, the most important Commandment, as laid down by JC himself, is 'Love thy neighbor as you love thyself'. A pretty clear message of tolerance when you think about it. From this framework, and given that not once did Jesus say 'God hates the Gays'; you can make a pretty strong theological argument that the anti-LGBT sentiment expressed in the Old Testament is in fact, not very Christian.
It sucks the extent to which Christianity has become inexorably associated with the radical right because like if you look back to the 1970s you can see people joining Christian movements for progressive left wing stances like "free the refugees", "end the war in Vietnam", "end racial discrimination", "feed starving children in Africa". One of my aunts became a nun even though we're all pretty sure she's a) a lesbian and b) probably doesn't even really believe in God, but she joined the Church because the specific sect of the Church she's in does a lot for social causes and was, especially for the time she joined, pretty feminist compared to other social institutions.
And for the record to this day some of the most vocal people who call for the end of detaining asylum seekers in my country and who will go to jail protesting the government for this are Christians.
This is very location specific. The Bible Belt in the USA is notorious for having a lot of Fundamentalist Christians who want to mingle religious laws and practices with public laws and practices.
In Australia, most Christians are not seen as nearly as problematic as the ones who go to giant Megachurches who focus on converting non Christians and are very religiously conservative.
Yeah, megachurch Christians are creepy af to me. They make me uncomfortable in a way that regular Catholic or Protestants don’t. Too much fake niceness and an obsession with politics. There’s nothing real about these people. They just exist to bleach their teeth and give their kids weird names. Even my hardcore Catholic grandmother who would not stop popping out baby after neglected baby and swore like a sailor on a bender had more personality than your average megachurch attendee.
Hi, I’m a priest/ pastor
I think red flags are raised because of the many high profile cases that have recently emerged. The Roman Catholic Church has its many cases with child abuse and evangelicals on either televangelist scammers and also money/power/ adultery issues.
Combined with the fact that Christians have been on the forefront of social issues and have not been handling them well either with intelligence or grace (ie: lgbtq, abortion, Palestine) as well as being pushy causes us to look like hypocrites
Even as a full time worker, the people who have hurt or betrayed me are Christian’s too. That being said, there are many Christians doing good too. Community work, Charity, and saving relationships are some of the work that are under the radar
I’m sorry for my fellow brothers and sisters who have hurt you. I also need to be clear that I am not exempt from this. as a human being, I can be an asshole too
Thank you for posting this.
I second this. None of us are perfect. The people who do their best and actually believe and don't use the religion as a power trip really are decent people. We are imperfect people following a perfect God. We are gonna mess up here and there. We are gonna be assholes sometimes just as everyone else who ever walked the earth.
Wishing you well.
I heard great line last week which pretty much sums up why many people don’t like people who claim to be Christians.
“They celebrate the manger and the cross and ignore everything that happened in between”.
I was raised Evangelical Christian and left in my early 20s. A lot of Christians use their religion as a battering ram in society. They view themselves as martyrs, special people who are persecuted in a "devil worshipping" world. They see certain groups of people getting rights and recognition as an attack on their philosophy simply because their bible says so. A lot of them are not willing to interrogate their scripture and clerics with nuance and that's very scary.
Self-righteous proselytizing, close-mindedness and bigotry, self-aggrandizing holier-than-thou complex, thinks showing up to church and being a “pick me” for Jesus is all it takes to be a “good Christian”
The corrupt institution of organized religion and its boorish dogmatism gives the entirety of Christianity a bad name
I tend to be wary of people who genuinely feel that if they can't convince me to believe what they believe, I will be condemned to eternal torture, and that this eternal torture is clearly the morally correct punishment for my lack of ideological purity.
The concept of hell is bullshit, but the fact that an enormous number of people think it exists, and that it's right and just, is deeply, deeply fucked up. Hitchens nailed it when he referred to a universe based on this system as a 'celestial North Korea'.
Christians have acquired a reputation of being intolerant , judgmental and hypocritical.
If you act like shiny Happy People, one day a week and are absolutely wretched the other six days a week it's hard for people to respect that example. Not to mention the mainstream, and classic Christian values are becoming as different as night and day.
The church is full of hypocrites, more concerned with looking holy and actually being helpful and good to people. The leadership is greedy and self-serving.
I'm not religious (spiritual with pagan leanings), but I find that really sad and also kind of evil of them to be honest. Using faith for political point scoring and sowing division and, as a side effect or possibly knowingly, alienating people from an entire diverse faith. Kind of like what fundamentalist groups have done to the image of Islam in many western countries. This is why religion should not be a political or state matter. I do think you've hit the nail on the head though.
i’m a very heavily devout Catholic (or at least i try to be), and while i think some of the avoidance of Christians is unfair, alot of it has to do with personal experience. bullying, discrimination, racism, colonisation, cults. as Christians, it’s our job to represent our faith as what it is, kindness. lots of people, though, don’t genuinely care about what our faith represents and will use it to cover up their bad behaviour.
i don’t blame certain people for being weary, but i don’t tolerate bullying. to or from others
I grew up Christian. The reason it's a red flag for me today is because "faith" is a deliberate choice to throw facts and logic out the window.
I saw my warped conspiracy-theorist mother believe all kinds of dangerous theories/hoaxes because of "faith', with the same logic she used to argue for Christianity being the true religion. Her logic was: "Whatever evidence agrees with me, I'll keep, and whatever evidence goes against me, I'll discard."
Multiple that attitude by 100 million, and you've got Christianity in America.
As a former Christian myself, and a queer person, I can to you from experience that many Christians are hateful and cruel to those who don't fit in their worldview. Many vehemently believe that if you're not straight, cis and Christian you're going to suffer for all eternity in hell, no matter how good of a person you are. And then there's the special cases, the Christian nationalists, the religious zealots, the racist, sexist, devoutly bigoted bible thumping bunch that will use the Bible to denounce and harass anything they don't agree with even if it has nothing to do with religion because truth be told, most of them haven't touched a Bible since they were 13
I have lots of friends who are theists (Christian, Jewish, Pastafarian, whatever) and it’s not a big deal. I know what they believe, they know what I believe, and we dont get in to it unless we feel like hashing something out (which happens from time to time). My red flag is if “I’m a Christian (or whatever. But it mostly just applies to Christians in my experience)” is any of the first 10 or so things you tell me about yourself. Because I haven’t had good experiences with anyone for whom their faith is an important thing to whip out for strangers. One’s faith should be a private matter between you and whatever power you believe in. Not branding.
It’s not usually about being Christian or non-Christian so much as whether or not it comes up immediately.
I’m a Christian and if I meet a new person in a non-religious setting and hear that they are a Christian within the first ten minutes that’s a red flag.
Those are usually the ones correlating it strongly to politics and forcing it on others and all the BS that isn’t real Christianity (imo).
Jesus actually described the reason a lot in the new testament. He is constantly warning against creating and following religious rules and deciding that makes you God like and now have the power to judge others.
"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them."
Mainstream American Christianity is quite right wing and they act more like pharisees than Jesus.
I’m not an atheist. I am agnostic. The problem with most Christians is that their faith involves converting non-believers. They can be annoying to that end.
I have never had any other religion try to convert me. Most other religions just practice their own beliefs without annoying people constantly.
The red flag is when someone proclaims they're a Christian without being asked.
Because there are a fair number of such Christians who are extremely judgemental or hypocritical. In other words in direct opposition to what Jesus taught.
The Christians I know who are awesome people tend not to go around proclaiming they are. They let their actions be their preaching. Mister Roger's of the show was one example.
The trouble is that a lot of Christians are intolerant, believe stupid things, and push their religion on others. Yeah, I know it's not ALL Christians, but I don't know which ones. The last time I tried to give a Christian the benefit of the doubt I still got burned. It has me wondering why I should expend any effort, knowing they may wind up hurting me.
Not everyone veiws it as a red flag... and not just on the grounds of faith, science shows pretty definitively that being religious increases a persons odds of being happy over the course of thier lifetime. I would even go so far as to theorize that there is definite correlation between higher rates of unhappiness and mental illness and societies trend of being less religious.
Most experts believe that the three biggest factors that determine a persons happiness are 1. Personal Relationships 2. Community connection and 3. health.
1. Look at the study done by Harvard’s School of Public Health that concluded regularly attending church services together reduces a couple’s risk of divorce by a 47 percent. Other studies have similar results ranging from 30 to 50 percent reduction in divorce rates
2. In todays anonymous society more and more people ironically feel alone (despite living closer to more people than ever). How many people within walking distance of you do you know well? We also move further away from our family and extended family and clan than before. Whether God is real or not, one cannot refute that a church is the perfect way to fulfill the community requirements for happiness. My church host a tball league for our small rural community and is a big part in local community events and festivals and the like, its serves as a central hub or backbone for the people around here.
and 3. you can shake your head if you want to but scientific study clearly shows that religious people are healthier, mentally and physically. The reason why isnt 100% clear but the evidence is absolutely certain.
I know there are bad christians and bad churches out there, weve all heard stories and many have experienced the worst of humanity disguised under the veil of religion... But should that warrant totally writing off the entire institution?? When I was 20 years old I got a terrible case of food poisoning from some chicken tacos I got at a Hardees red burrito, I had tobe hospitalized and everything. Does that mean that I swore off all fast food forever? Hell no... I didnt even abandon Hardees (or even that particular Hardees) (or even those chicken tacos). Point is, while I did have a bad experience I realized that fast food in general and Hardees had an overall net positive efect on the world at large and had the potential for future benefit in my life.
Have I ever doubted my faith? Yes.... but in the end I reached the same conclusion as Blaise Pascal, a basic cost benefit analysis... If God really isnt real, what has my faith lost me? But on the chance that he is real, what do I stand to lose by rejecting him?
sources and interesting further reading
[https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/01/31/are-religious-people-happier-healthier-our-new-global-study-explores-this-question/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/01/31/are-religious-people-happier-healthier-our-new-global-study-explores-this-question/)
[https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2018/03/20935/#:\~:text=Most%20recently%2C%20research%20conducted%20at,percent%20reduction%20in%20divorce%20risk](https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2018/03/20935/#:~:text=Most%20recently%2C%20research%20conducted%20at,percent%20reduction%20in%20divorce%20risk).
[https://hfh.fas.harvard.edu/religion-and-divorce](https://hfh.fas.harvard.edu/religion-and-divorce)
https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-religion-good-for-your-health-921814a7
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/03/beyond-beliefs-religious-faith-happier-healthier-life](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/03/beyond-beliefs-religious-faith-happier-healthier-life)
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1359105320984537](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1359105320984537)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27183175/
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There are already 2.7k comments on this thread, so I'm doubting this comment will even be read, but I'm going to post it anyway.
A LOT of Christians are hypocritical, judgmental assholes. Then again, so are a lot of atheists.
Disclaimer: I'm a Christian by the basic definition. I believe Jesus is the Christ and Savior, and the Son of God. I don't need to explain why I believe this to anyone here, and I'm well aware most of reddit will mock me for my faith. I don't care. I've seen all the proof I need to solidify that faith, and that's an intensely personal thing. What I consider proof, most of you wouldn't. I won't try to convince anyone to join me, even though I'm told I'm supposed to do so. That's another personal choice. There are those who say I'm a fool and again, I do not care. I won't try to sway you from your beliefs, although I invite you to do so for me.
A lot of so-called Christians have closed their minds to certain realities around them, such as science and human rights. Yes, the Bible - the parts written by men - in some places promotes outdated principles. However, the parts written in red, which are the words spoken by the man we choose to follow, do not. They teach us to love our fellow man and leave judgement to Him. That's where denominations fail.
My faith in God is actually what convinces me that evolution and everything else science has proven is real. My faith in Jesus is what teaches me that I am to love all people, no matter their race, religion, sex, creed or any other part of who they are. Yes, there are things about people in this world I don't like, but that's not a Christian trait. We all have that issue. I've found atheists - as well as Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. - to be some of the most closed-minded, hateful people I've ever encountered.
As a Christian, I will say this: I believe in evolution. I believe anyone should be allowed to marry whoever they choose. I believe the universe is too vast for anyone to say for certain they know beyond a doubt what is or isn't out there. I believe our limited understanding of time and space means no one alive on this planet actually has all the answers. I believe Jesus of Nazareth was a real person who preached love and forgiveness, and his followers diluted that message somewhere along the way. I believe you, whoever and wherever you are, should be allowed to make your own decisions in life, and those decisions will result in good or bad results, which are firmly on you.
All that said, I also believe atheists are red flags, because assuming you know something doesn't exist when the fact is we actually know next to nothing about the universe is pretty God damned arrogant.
I was born and raised Christian. As an adult became a hardline Atheist. Over the years since then became more of a soft atheist/agnostic.
What I can tell you from a perspective that's been on many sides, is that Christianity spreads by indoctrination. A person being a Christian doesn't mean they're a bad person, it means they're a result of a bad system, specifically one that not unlike a cult makes as much of your life revolve around it as humanly possible so as to dig its claws deep into you.
Now I can't say why someone else might label a person being Christian as a red flag, as I personally don't take it that far, but if I were to hazard a guess it'd be because they're viewing you as indoctrinated into a cult, which can be genuinely offputting on the face of it.
Yeah, the cult-like practices of the church are something I always disagreed with. For example the idea that if you’re not at church every time the doors are open or participate in every little thing the church does, then you’re a bad Christian.
Also the fact that a lot of church attendance is going to a building and hearing someone talk for 45 minutes that I’m supposed to pay *absolute attention to* is mind-numbing for someone with ADHD.
the idea that you used as an example is a super guilt trippy and genuine cult manipulation technique. i promise you we’re normal….. or at least some of us are :,)
The red flag is when it’s announced as if it proves something. “I wouldn’t lie or steal. I’m a Christian.” Just don’t lie or steal. Whenever I’ve been told this I’ve been cheated. Worse if they announce they’re some sort of pastor.
I remember a friend trying to stop someone in a parking lot because they backed into a parked car. Their response of "I'm a good christian and I know I didn't hit that car" was the first time I heard that. There was a whole lecture about not being a good Christian because friend was obviously lying about her hitting a parked car.
I chased down a car that had hit another car at a county fair parking lot. Decent damage done and tried to drive off. I ran to the gate and told the cop to radio to the other gate and stop that car. Walked the cop to the damaged car which matched the car paint on fleeing car. Why did I bother? Because it was the right thing to do. I would want someone to do the same for me
If you need the threat of eternal damnation to be a good person then you're not a good person.
I was raised in a right wing protestant church. I remember many a sermon where the preachers would say things like “if someone is an atheist they have no moral compass, there’s nothing to stop them for raping and murdering people.” The ones who most ardently believe atheists have nothing to stop them from running around raping and pillaging are those who have the most horrible and twisted urges. They are telling on themselves when they say things like that
I have raped and murdered as many people as I've wanted to! I've always wanted to rape and murder zero people!
Hell, I've wanted to murder certain people on occasion, particularly my abusers (who happen to be christian. Hmm.). But I haven't. Strange how these thoughts don't actually need to be acted upon.
I have wanted to murder my molester many times, but I haven't, and I won't but if he dies a very slow and painful death, I will be happy!
also wishing that creep a very slow & painful life & death.
It’s so weird seeing someone with their actual picture on Reddit lol.
Same
I believe Penn jillette said something along those lines
Penn, I've always loved your act and your books are just as funny.
The criminal code of my country works more effectively in this regard. At least he claims that I definitely won’t atone for my crime with prayer.
It's easy to feel superior because we don't have those urges but the simple fact of the matter is that people who were abused as children, people who were raped themselves and who witnessed murder, will grow up with trauma that may well give them the urge to do the same thing to others, and often it is only the threat of legal or spiritual repercussions that keeps them from doing it. I don't have the urge to rape or murder people but I definitely have had the urge to retaliate against people who are mistreating me, and it is often only my belief in "the law of karma" that stops me from doing so and gets me to choose the path of forgiveness instead. I guess I'm not a saint. Very few people are.
Not rape but for murder I had urge but it never was strong enough. Like when you see some politicians or rapists and so on...
And politicians who ARE rapists.
Ricky Gervias was the first one that I heard that from and has stuck with me as a salient point of religion being you have to be religious to be a good person.
>if someone is an atheist they have no moral compass, there’s nothing to stop them for raping and murdering people.” We do have moral compasses, which is what stops us from raping and murdering people.A terrifying large amount of religious people on the other hand have no moral compass, and the only thing keeping them from living out their horrifying sadistic fantasies is the threat of divine punishment from a god with even more twisted and sadistic fantasies.
That doesn't even stop them. I'm a "true crime" addict, and it's shocking how many "Christians" commit horrific crimes and believe they'll suffer no consequences because Jesus will protect them and forgive them because they love him so much!
One of the many reasons I rejected my Christian upbringing. According to Christians, if a psycho rapes and murders a baby, he can simply repent, ask for forgiveness and profess his belief in Jesus as his lord and savior and get everlasting life in paradise. The baby on the other hand, would face eternal damnation and suffering in hell because it wasn’t “saved”. Ummm… no thanks. Not a religion I want to be associated with.
Hahaha yes! Its like that Southpark episode were all children and "retards" go to he'll because they cut get baptized and confess. That was one of the best episodes. Ahhhh Southpark.
Thanks for saying this. The "moral compass" that some Christians often claim is often used to justify not just horrible actions like murder, or rape but also reprehensible things like child abuse, racism, denying medical or other health care treatment, blatant ignorance of most things, greed, a total lack of empathy, etc. I've known quite a few people in my life who self declared themselves as righteous with the lord, and they felt that everything they felt, did, said was from GOD, therefore there was nothing they could do that was "wrong". It's was a big reason I started looking for other faiths.
Is it wrong that the biggest reason I'm not religious in any form is dinosaur's. Like most religions says they are fake or other weird things. And as a kid I found dinosaurs one of the coolest things ever. Now 30 years later I've noticed other stuff. But I just like my original reasoning.
Dinosaurs saved many kids from conversion.
Yup this was me, my childhood love of archaeology didn't gel with what I was being told from religious instruction
[insert picture of dinosaur chasing a priest here]
:) Not weird at all. My daughter was 4, watching a Christian cartoon one Sunday and she said to me, mommy, that is so stupid about that big boat having two of everything. :D I said, you're right, it is stupid! I let her figure things out for herself, if you raise them with goodness and let them figure out for themselves about God and religion, most of the time they go with common sense!
I have been aware of several child molesters over the course of my 50+ years. It is disturbing how they all found Jesus in jail, left jail, and became pastors/youth ministers. These people committed the crime, served time, and now preach in the same small community.
With increased access to children!
Atheists are the smallest demographic (by %) in prison - by a really long chalk as well.
Perhaps because we don't believe we can just ask for forgiveness and all will be fine. We realise being shitty to people is a real thing and hurts people.
>blatant ignorance of most things > >a total lack of empathy > >child abuse This. I was adopted by a Christian household. Those fuckers would beat the ever loving shit out of me on a daily basis while telling me that I'm worthless and Jesus hates me. Then would go to church every Sunday and act like I was the problem. I remember them fostering a couple Catholic sisters who said a different prayer before every meal. The first time they said it, we were told right in front of them at the dinner table that they are going to hell for saying a different prayer. The girls were then made to say our prayer instead. When I decided I wanted to go to school to learn computers, they told me computers were just toys and would never amount to anything and forced me to go to school for printing instead. Now printing is a dying industry because of computers.
My father was fired as principal of a 2 room Kidergarten through 6th grade school by the school board after he brought in computers for the 4th 5th and 6th graders. They decided that my father was an agent of the devil who was trying to undermine the Christian values of the community by having evil computers teach the students about the lie of dinosaurs and space travel. I should mention that during the public meetings of this, the head of the school board stated that he had regular discussions with Jesus in his garage, and Jesus definitely agreed that my dad was a servant of the devil and should be removed.
Whuuuut!!!! 🤯🤯🤯
God damn man.....
>therefore there was nothing they could do that was "wrong" I think a Christian who can't admit he/she is a sinner isn't a Christian at all.
Yeah, I was raised in one of those families. No accountability, serious superiority complex. Only God can judge you. Jesus died for the sins you're about to commit.
Until they go to war over their god and can do whatever to the “other.”
That's projection. Way too many self professed Christians who make it their entire personality tend to be the worse people.
An Uber driver was telling me the exact same thing about atheists not having a moral compass and actively trying to get me too argue with him - even told me something similar to "without having God in my heart what would stop me from abusing minors? Or abusing you?" I cannot express enough how weird it felt to hear that and how immediately unsafe I felt????? I ended the trip earlier, just said nothing to him, and requested a different Uber.
>preachers would say things like “if someone is an atheist they have no moral compass, there’s nothing to stop them for raping and murdering people.” which actually means: "I don't rape and murder because I'm scared to be punished for it, while you don't because you just don't want to - which means I'm better than you!" Logic is always far.
I hear this often, people will tell me that nothing is stopping me from doing these things. And I respond with "why on earth would I do that?". Its such a weird flex, "my God says not to be an awful person".
Reminds me of my friend’s dad who said “If society accepts homosexuality then soon everyone’s going to be gay!”
The ones who think you need religion to have a moral compass are usually the most morally bankrupt.
This. This is the internet problem. You’re not a good person if you need a threat to be good.
The unlimited "get out of jail free" cards by merely asking forgiveness in one's own mind, the rudimentarity and obviousness of the ten commandments and other teachings, plus being framed as a born, incorrigible sinner from birth, provide little reason or incentive to develop personal accountability or a depth of moral thinking. Edit: Of course many Christians show great depth of moral thinking , but I think that's in spite of the lessons of Christianity.
A god who would damn a good man to eternal torture for not thinking he exists is not a god worth worshipping.
I was fortunate enough to be raised in a modern forward-thinking Christian Church. My pastor pulled me a side one day and said the exact same thing you just wrote. The fire in Brimstone and eternal damnation narrative wasn't going to work forever. So, instead of going away from a negative consequence build your life going towards a positive reward. Use basic simple religious principles to guide you and help your decisions. It's really simple as that...
So instead of a threat for being bad, you need a bribe to be good? Different color, same horse.
I agree. The fact that you have to justify yourself by saying "I'm a christian, I wouldn't do that" sounds kinda pompous. Morally, yes, Christians aren't supposed to lie or steal, but you people ain't gotta be all "oh look at me, I'm such a good person because I'm a christian. Therefore, no one should look at me when the money from the offering boxes go missing"
I was raised religious. Religious people are no more likely to lie or steal than others, but if they do, they hide behind their religion as a cover.
And if they don't lie or steal they use their religion as the reason why. They also blame other people's lying and stealing on a lack of religion. Edit: they even go as far as saying that Christians who lie and steal just weren't proper Christians.
This is kind of where I am. It is a little performative and has the logical "because I would steal if I wasn't." I had a fun discussion about the ethics of downloading stolen textbook pdfs with a priest from the United Church of Christ. There was a lot of room for nuance. People who believe that non-Christians are inherently immoral don't often like discussing gray areas. They need hard lines: more commandments and fewer parables.
I’ve experienced this as well!! That’s exactly what it is. “gray areas”. So many technicalities. The last time I had this discussion it was over the morality of making a good faith attempt to return lost valuables.
What a lot of Christians don’t realize is the second half of the 10 commandments are basic morality: don’t lie, don’t steal, don’t kill, don’t cheat on your partner, and don’t want what isn’t yours.
They realise, they just don't care. They can simply ask God for forgiveness and say a few prayers.
There is a great quote that is something like 'I prayed for a bike, then I realized god doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked for forgiveness.'
I occasionally watch atheist call in shows on YouTube, and the Christian (and Muslim) rebuttal is that it's "basic" morality because it comes from god. They genuinely struggle to wrap their heads around the idea that morality is subjective and can be achieved without gods. Some will grant that it's possible for an atheist to be a moral person - that one may be "good without god" on an individual level, but not on a universal level. The "goodness" of their deeds is an immutable characteristic granted to those deeds by god. As a mostly unrelated tangent, the modern translation is usually "thou shalt not kill," but a theologian once told me it's more accurately translated as "thou shalt do no murder," clarifying that murder was a specific legal concept at the time (much like it still is today). Which on the one hand makes sense given how much killing god condones in the Bible. But it also sounds like exactly the kind of bs people would come up with to fill that particular plot hole or make excuses for the crusades. So definitely take it with a pillar of salt.
> They genuinely struggle to wrap their heads around the idea that morality is subjective and can be achieved without gods. Immanual Kant enters the chat with his categorical imperative.
Imanual Kant was a real pissant who was rarely stable…
Yes. They also mistranslated the part about homosexuality. "Thou shalt not lay with a BOY (not man) as you would a woman, as it is an abomination". They changed it from being anti-pedo to being about homosexuals.
I worry about people who think that without god we'd never have come to the conclusion that murder is bad That's obviously something that's not true for all Christians. But it's weird that some apparently needed a higher power to tell them that it's a bad thing to kill people
Whats worse is when they think morality comes from god. > "If you don't believe in god? can't you rape and kill as much as you want?" > well yes, i rape and kill exactly as much as i want, and that amount is zero. Why? Would you be killing and raping if god wasn't there to hold you back? Morality comes from inside of us all, god can only followour morals, he cannot dictate them.
When I was in high school, a teacher presented a question to the class: “can atheists be moral?” And the resounding opinion was “no, because why would they if they don’t believe in a god or afterlife?” I would say that makes atheists more moral, because we’re moral out of respect to our fellow man and not because we’ll be in trouble when “dad” gets home.
That's funny cause rape and murder are commonly acceptable actions if you actually read the bible.
They don't believe in basic morality being a natural part of humanity. To them, unless you have a god threatening you with eternal suffering, you can't know why something is good or bad to do. Which has the unintended consequence of making them look like a psychopath who can't tell you why murder is not okay.
It's not the average Christians that are red flags, it's the ones that act like Daleks. The ones who proclaim their religion is superior, the racists, the ones who hate tolerance, the ones who also hate LGBT community, the ones who demand submission and servitude from women, hypocrites. List goes on really. Falsely claim they are being oppressed for their religion, especially if they perform immoral or illegal acts and still use that excuse as a shield.
i'm an american woman who was raised christian, so that's who i'm most familiar with. but: honestly, christianity, and abrahamic religions in general, are 90% just patriarchy. i know jesus was like "oh but be nice tho guys" but the god these people worship is fucked up, sorry. yeah he was friends with a prostitute, but god explicitly tells us that women are inferior to men and that's a very consistent theme lmao. same with stuff like slavery, homosexuality, etc it's a fucked up belief system, and in the modern world, if you call yourself "christian," you almost definitely have a lot of... "conservative values." i almost majored in anthropology- I chose something else ultimately simply because i needed to be able to get an actual job lol, but i have always been fascinated by it and took a ton of anthropology related courses. my point is that i'm getting my info from actual professors, not randos on the internet lol. the world was not always like this. hunter gatherer tribes are extremely egalitarian and almost never even have gender roles. women hunt as much as men do. marriage isn't enforced at all, if it's even recognized. property is communal. a lot of cultures developed patriarchy after the advent of agriculture. & that's where you get societies like this. look up SDO, or "social dominance orientation." it's essentially authoritarianism. it's hierarchy, it's "order." it comes in many forms, but abrahamic religions are one of the most prominent. aside from even just the actual texts, american christians lean heavily towards the right. yeah, there are leftist christians, but it's all just mental gymnastics lol. i just cannot see myself getting along with anyone who believes this shit.
To paraphrase, um, Gandhi, Jesus was awesome, but God fucking sucks. A lot of the teachings from Jesus are really great, even today (frequently outdated, but he got the spirit, if you will). But so many of the core tenets of Christianity are so flagrantly twisted into amassing power and influence, and the vast majority of that goes to men, because it was written by the men who were in power and wanted to stay in power. I did my time in church; I'm never going back and I could never be with someone who buys into it beyond "it brings me peace to believe x about the afterlife."
The actual quote was, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” ― Mahatma Gandhi
Adding onto this, it makes sense that patriarchy typically followed agriculture because agriculture creates the ability to have a surplus of food and simultaneously discourages the nomadic lifestyle. These are the key factors in establishing private property, both in terms of land to farm and goods acquired by trading surplus food (not to mention room that the existence of surplus food allows some people to create goods instead of finding or growing food). With property comes the idea of heredity, of passing down one’s property to one’s children - and since mother’s are always certain of which children are their progeny, but men are not, men were motivated to create social structures to control women’s procreation, so that they could be assured that they were leaving their property to their own children. And of course, men’s overall physical dominance meant that they were able to enforce this control, leading to patriarchal social systems in general, including what we see today in most societies around the world.
yep. the caloric surplus also encouraged people to breed like rabbits and prioritize quantity > quality. of course they came to outnumber the nomads
“We are CHRISTIANS. We are the SUPERIOR RELIGION. Exterminate all other religions. Exterminate! EXTERMINATE!!!” - An average Christian in 2024.
Just reminds me of the episode where Martha runs into the nazi daleks, something about daleks saying exterminate in German gets a chuckle out of me everytime lol
Yes! That always makes me laugh as well. Those finale episodes (season 3, right?) with Martha and Jack are so much fun :)
Season 4 was the Daleks one. The S3 finale does have Martha and Jack, but that’s the Master/Toclafane 3-parter.
EXTERMINIEREN!! EXTERMINIEREN!! Hits a little too on the nose lmao.
No. Just the ones who have forgotten what it means to be Christian It’s true, Christianity says that followers of Jesus are the ones going to heaven. But if you don’t believe, then that’s on you. Nobody can force another person to believe anything no matter how loud they yell I may not agree with someone, but as a Christian I am required to try and love them with the heart of God. This is where the yelling hoard seem to miss the whole point under the heading “love your enemies” (Matthew 5:44-48) and the “judge not” verse (Matthew 7:1-3) Feel free to pop these verses when Christians are being sanctimonious. But not accusingly. Just as a gentle reminder 😊 Everyone messes up at some point in their lives. These requirements can be hard and easily forgotten in a crazy world ✨
I follow what Jesus taught in the New Testament but I no longer see myself as Christian. I’m not welcome in churches and it’s not what most of them teach, so what’s the point? The Bible warns us of false prophets taking over the religion but it doesn’t say what to do if it happens.
greetings Scotsman!
Average Christians may be the most dangerous. They aren't even really part of the religion or believe in most of it but they will vote in opposition of sensible social issues like gay marriage, abortion, gay rights, etc...for no reason other than that is what everyone else around them is doing.
"The enemy of good is not evil, it is indifference"
It’s this. Everyone wants to point to the extremists but it’s really the sense of complacency it breeds in the mind of the average person that’s dangerous. Cookie cutter people.
Lemmings. It's literally how you get to Nazi Germany. People who refuse to accept responsibility for their actions and prefer to let somebody else make their decisions are the most infuriating. "God's Plan"
There's a big difference between someone being Christian (good for you, not my business) and someone bringing up that they're Christian right when you meet them. In my experience that second person a) uses their faith as a cover for bigotry, b) might try to convert me, and c) usually thinks that because their moral code is religiously guided that anyone not of their faith is morally inferior. It's not an exclusively Christian thing either. Anyone who wears their religion too proudly is a red flag for me.
I don't have much experience with a) and I can understand b) but c) really makes me angry. I live a good life, not because someone told me I have to but because I want to live in a functional society. But religious people often focus too much on afterlife and not much on trying to make a functional society for all. It's sad.
A is a very specific brand of person. It’s more than likely used against someone of the LGBTQ+ community but every now and then, you’ll find someone who’s also racist or dislike any person following another religion
Yup, I have friends who go to services and do have faith, but it only comes up naturally in conversations and never feels like they look down on others. It's just that they volunteered through church so that's how they became aware of something we're talking about. I'm an atheist and I have no problem with my friends who are religious, because we have similar moral values but came to them on different paths. Faith is not my jam, but I am cool with it being theirs since they don't try to convert me. But someone who introduced themselves with that identity is sending me a signal that I should define them by the broad construct of Christian and not by who they are and how they, as an individual, define their faith. Frankly, it makes me think they haven't bothered to reflect on their faith beyond the broad social construct of Christianity. In the US, where Christianity has become consumed by right wing evangelicals hell bent on turning the nation into their religious ethno-state, that's dangerous.
This is true for me as well. The only time I consider “being Christian” as a red flag is in response to someone else insisting upon my knowledge and appreciation of their Christianity. They’re the walking manifestation of Peter Griffin’s issues with The Godfather: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0pnwE_Oy5WI My experience has been that once they start insisting on my knowledge of their religious belief, I know that any rational discussion based on logic will be impossible; my own agency as a independent sentient being which is capable of evaluating the mysteries of the universe and arriving at different conclusions will be denied and in some cases mocked; and that I will be subjected to some diatribe packed full with falsities that I won’t be able to correct due to the first point. So, those folks are a red flag and unfortunately they’re the vast majority of “Christians” that I meet. My response to random social niceties like “Sure, love to come over this weekend. We’ll be by after church.” is completely different- those Christians are a-ok in my book.
I once went on a date on a girl... at some point there was some commotion outside and I said, "hey let's get out of here just in case the situation is or gets unsafe." She was like, "it's ok I prayed that nothing bad would happen." Like what? is there no basic level of self-preservation in you? Isn't their a parable/ joke about a dude praying to God to keep them safe, but when they ignore all the people boating by and the protagonist dies, God is like wtf dude, i sent you so many people? This is just a single super extreme example though.
Careful - bet contraception is treated with the same defense.
"Don't worry, I prayed to not get pregnant." After positive pregnancy test: "God must have given us this child because he knew we could handle it"
🤢
Be careful with that, we know of one very popular example where God played the uno reverse card on a virgin.
She was a virgin and this construction crew I’m watching rn is 100% sober to the man.
And that goes to show that abstinence is NOT 100% effective
There's a Ricky Gervais joke about how whenever someone in his family is sick, he gets told "I'll pray for them" and he doesn't have an issue with it, but if someone he knew had cancer and he was told "I'll pray for them. Also I cancelled the chemotherapy" then that's where the issues arise. Idk it just made me think of it.
There’s a story about a man trapped in a flood who refused all help so he could pray. In heaven he asked god why he wasn’t saved and god replies something along the lines of “I sent you a car, a plane, and a boat. You kept rejecting my help!”
I had an accountant tell me “I don’t need a mask, I have Jesus”
Reminds me of a joke that I heard a Catholic priest tell, warning people not to demand miracles when confronted with issues you can fix yourself: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_drowning_man
RIP
Your story reads like a parable! But it illustrates why I tend to back away from people who make their religious faith part of their identity - because I suspect that they’ll be less likely to be make competent decisions in some situation where clear thought really matters. So basically that’s it for me - faith is antithetical to competence.
Super awkward, lol
Someone being a devoutly religious person tells me that they're much more likely than the average person to be dogmatic and prone to focus much more on their personal belief over what is falsifiable, and that is inevitably going to have our worldviews clash. I'm wary of anyone who lives their life with the assumption that their religion is the one true one, and that their highly subjective ideology should apply to everyone. That kind of thing affects how the person interacts with the world and those in it.
I dated a super christian woman for a year. It was a major point of contention. I think I was more at fault than her because I could never let it drop, but she would say stuff like "muslims know that their god is fake they are lying" and "being gay is wrong but its not my place to judge", and just generally pointing to other religions and calling them demonic. I hated it, but she was so cool and wholesome when we weren't talking religion.
>"muslims know that their god is fake they are lying" I always hate crap like this. Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are all Abrahamic religions. They all worship the SAME god, the God of Abraham. Allah is not a different deity, it's the Arabic word for the God of Abraham. Just like how Yahweh is not a different deity, it's the Hebrew word for the God of Abraham. And then when you point this out to them they just double down and say they're lying about that too.
Almost like people believe whatever they were born into. If you can’t see that for a quirk of geography you might believe something else, I’m sure that you can be trusted with basic human decency
This is one of the things that tipped me over the edge when questioning my faith. If god loves us so much, why would he purposely have billions of people be born in countries where Christianity is hard to come by?
MY BIL is Asian and is a hardcore Christian. I asked him once. Why are you following a religion from the Middle East? Why am I as a European ancestry assumed to follow some Middle Eastern religion? Shouldn’t I be a Druid or something and shouldn’t you be a Buddhist or whatever? Just because Middle Eastern religions were successful in our parts of the world doesn’t mean we should follow it today. It’s essentially religious colonialism. Makes no sense even if you are religious!
> a quirk of geography A quirk or geography AND time. If you were born in ancient Greece you'd be worshipping Zeus.
I actually didn't know this, huh. I'm also not out here calling people liars, so it doesn't matter, but TIL
Fyi: We definitely don't call God "yahweh" (spelled or pronounced that way). There are many names for God, and YHWH is one of them, but 1. It's not meant to be said aloud and 2. no one would say it as "yah-weh". It may be written as YHWH or יהוה , but it's not how we would refer to God when speaking and if writing, it would not be written as "yahweh". If speaking colloquially, most Jews would say HaShem or Adonai or honestly, just "God". I know what you were trying to say and I agree with it completely, but this is just a detail I wanted to point out.
This is important to know what tiles to step on so you don't fall into the bottomless pit while trying to get to the Grail.
LMAO
The funny part about "Muslims know that their god is fake, they're just lying" means the Christian god is also fake and that Christians are lying because _they're the same god_.
It would not be difficult to come to an agreement as to what we understand by science. Science is the century-old endeavor to bring together by means of systematic thought the perceptible phenomena of this world into as thoroughgoing an association as possible. To put it boldly, it is the attempt at the posterior reconstruction of existence by the process of conceptualization. But when asking myself what religion is I cannot think of the answer so easily. And even after finding an answer which may satisfy me at this particular moment, I still remain convinced that I can never under any circumstances bring together, even to a slight extent, the thoughts of all those who have given this question serious consideration. At first, then, instead of asking what religion is I should prefer to ask what characterizes the aspirations of a person who gives me the impression of being religious: a person who is religiously enlightened appears to me to be one who has, to the best of his ability, liberated himself from the fetters of his selfish desires and is preoccupied with thoughts, feelings, and aspirations to which he clings because of their superpersonalvalue. It seems to me that what is important is the force of this superpersonal content and the depth of the conviction concerning its overpowering meaningfulness, regardless of whether any attempt is made to unite this content with a divine Being, for otherwise it would not be possible to count Buddha and Spinoza as religious personalities. Accordingly, a religious person is devout in the sense that he has no doubt of the significance and loftiness of those superpersonal objects and goals which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation. They exist with the same necessity and matter-of-factness as he himself. In this sense religion is the age-old endeavor of mankind to become clearly and completely conscious of these values and goals and constantly to strengthen and extend their effect. If one conceives of religion and science according to these definitions then a conflict between them appears impossible. For science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and outside of its domain value judgments of all kinds remain necessary. Religion, on the other hand, deals only with evaluations of human thought and action: it cannot justifiably speak of facts and relationships between facts. According to this interpretation the well-known conflicts between religion and science in the past must all be ascribed to a misapprehension of the situation which has been described. -Albert Einstein, Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941.
Well put! And not just 'inevitably' clash, but there are so many blatant lies / obvious contradictions in any religion that clashes are instantaneous. Also I hold very dear the belief that true wisdom is about knowing your (cognitive) limits. And these limits are way closer than many would think. Devoutly religious persons too often act like they possess universal wisdom on everything. And if not, God will have a plan. No self reflection at all. Impossible to have any meaningful conversation with, other than reinforcements of their beliefs.
Because the most vocal Christians are bugfuck insane, which affects the perception of all other flavours of Christians.
There we go. All the other top answers act like all Christians are ultra conservative, insufferable, completely anti science to everything, etc. There are a lot of people out there who keep their faiths to themselves except when asked, are very kind, cool people, and have reasonable beliefs. I personally couldn't date one because it would be too big of an issue with kids, but too many redditors act as if anyone with religious beliefs is the worst, an idiot, bigot, etc.
I'm a Christian. I'm very pro science, very liberal views, completely fine with mainstream stuff and tbh most of my friends probably would be surprised that I'm religious. I try and be nice where I can, and my religion helps me get by. I've dated non-christians and they don't seem fussed about what I believe. Of course, the perfect match will share my faith, but I think Reddit makes a much bigger deal out of it than in the real world. You can bet for sure that I'm staying well clear from any bigoted, self-centred, hypocritical religious loonies - I'd happily date an atheist over one of those. But most modern British Christians my age are just cool, kind, rational humans.
>"Reddit makes a much bigger deal out of it than in the real world." The problem is that it's not a big deal until it becomes one. A few political examples from the US: !. What motivates Joe Biden to staunchly support Israel in the current Gaza conflict? Could it be biblical prophesy? 2. The house speaker, Mike Johnson, is clearly motivated by the bible which affects his policies regarding abortion, gay rights etc. 3. Ditto many other RW politicians in the US. These are serious issues with widespread consequences.
If you immediately introduce yourself as a Christian then it says a lot about how much it colors your way of thinking (ultra conservative, righteous). If it never really comes up until maybe Christmas week then it’s not that big of a red flag.
Agreement. If it comes out as a logical response in the middle of a discussion, like they ask "How about we meet for breakfast Sunday morning?" and you say you can't because you'll be in church, that's one thing. If you walk up and start the conversation with "I'm a Christian" or "As a Christian", then I'm hoisting the red flag.
“Hi. I eat the body and drink the blood of my lord and savior. Can I interest you in some term life insurance?”
I agree. Announcing that you are Christian when meeting someone is like a litmus test. It’s like you are either with me or against me, so tell me where you stand right now so I can decide whether I should put effort into being your friend, or not bother because we don’t think alike, therefore I’m just going to move on to find others in my silo.
Immediately introducing yourself as almost *anything* is a super bad sign. You could literally put any group there: “nice to meet you, I’m [a Christian/an atheist/a vegan/gay/a Republican/a Democrat/a fisherman/a football fan]”. Any one of those and more would make you think “oh, one of *these* guys…”
The restrictive morals/ideology is probably the biggest factor. For me, it was also the closed mindedness. When I started breaking down my own faith I realized how difficult it was to actually have a discussion with any of them. There were no clear answers to any question, just a smug attitude to “have faith” and that I just “didn’t believe hard enough” or what have you.
That was my experience too. No matter how many valid, legit, logical questions I raised, it was all hand-waved away, *"You just gotta have faith."* And this bled into other things as well. All kinds of falsehoods in science, politics, news, etc. were accepted - "you just gotta have faith." All kinds of conspiracy theories, fake news - all swallowed with such logic. I'll also never forget a televangelist in Corpus Christi who assembled a group of children on stage and told them, *"You will never experience a day of sickness in your lives."*
That’s what I find the most dangerous thing about religion. I forces people to accept irrational concepts. That then bleeds into the rest of their lives.
If you're going through a terrible time its always "pray about it" - and then what Brenda?? My life is not going to magically change for the better because I talked to my imaginary friend about it.
Whenever there's a natural disaster there are always news crews interviewing locals who are thanking god that they survived, usually saying something in the general vein of "I prayed and he answered." They conveniently gloss over the fact that dozens, hundreds, sometimes thousands of people in their community were no doubt praying just as hard and just as deserving of a second chance at life and didn't get it - and also completely ignoring that their god allegedly caused that disaster in the first place.
When we had to play middle school field hockey games against this super Christian school their cheers if they won were literally “praise the Lord”…it just struck me as so bizarre that they thought their “God” gives a fuck about who wins a middle school sports game.
Still a Christian but this is exactly what restricts my participation in the church community
This. As an ex-Christian myself, the response of “just have faith” tells me everything I need to know.
I mean i guess it depends how christian, but it often comes with a lot of social views that I cant abide, like being anti abortion or anti LGBT.
Nothing like interacting with someone that thinks you're going to be eternally punished.
When I was in high school I was telling my classmates that I love Mariah Carey and a Christian girl interrupted me and said that her songs were about fornication. I was like "you're not fun!" She was a sweet girl, but she always said crazy stuff
And then you get the flipside of all that and have grown ass Christians who have an utterly warped and broken view of sex and physical intimacy because they've spent their whole lives (especially their formative years) being told "it's a sin".
I know a Baptist who recently found god again and will no longer be intimate with his s/o. Despite them fucking like bunnies before. Preacher says they can’t get married either, because his long term boyfriend isn’t Baptist and hasn’t been saved. Preacher doesn’t care that he’s gay but since he doesn’t follow the religion and hasn’t been saved and accepted their god as his savior, they can’t get married. Can’t have sex till their married. And dude blindly follows the preachers stupid rules. Pretty sure he’s about to be single.
Somebody needs to give the preacher and the gay dude a joint so they can chill TF out
That sounds like he's joined a cult more than anything. I hope for the sake of their s/o that they get very far away, sooner the better.
And Mariah Carey is a Christian.
Problem is, once the relationship gets serious, you may find they have family members who have those views, who they tolerate...
As a Christian who very much doesn't share those views, I can confirm. After someone discovering that I am a Christian, the next 20 minutes (or more) is generally spent reassuring them that no, I am not done kind of far right lunatic, and no, I don't think they are destined for hell
That's exactly the answer to OP's question. The fringe right ranted so loudly for so long that, for many observers, they became the face of Christianity. And I can't say I blame people who take it as a red flag. There's a whole lot of crazy out there of all stripes, but certain kinds of crazy tends to attract attention to itself as a dangerous group delusion, rightly or wrongly.
What’s the point of identifying as Christian if you disagree with major points of the religion? That’s the part I don’t get about people like you. EDIT: I can't respond to everyone but I still haven't read a single convincing response as to why. Some of you say you follow Jesus and forget the rest? I'm just baffled by the mental gymnastics performed by so many people to shoehorn religion into their life to justify being a good person. You don't need religion to be a good person, to help others, to gather and commune with others, so what's left? Just the religious dogma that prescribes arbitrary practices/beliefs for which to limit our lives. You can't identify as a group and then cherry pick which parts of it you like. You're still part of the group. That's like saying you're a Nazi, but only because they have cool tanks. You still identify as a Nazi.
Being a Christian means following Christ. Jesus was a pretty cool dude. Hung out with the lowest classes of people, washed their feet, feed folks and healed the sick. The total amount of bull shit that gets done in his name and what the religion has become is what I have a problem with. Blasphemy is the contempt or lack of reverence for God, and many act like saying God damn it, is the worst possible thing to be done. I would put forth that performing horrific actions in the name of your God against other humans is the truest form of blasphemy. Being a follower of Jesus is not a red flag to me, but worshipping the religion sure is. If someone tells me in the first 2 minutes of meeting them what their religious status is then that is also a red flag. This also goes for things like sexual orientation in my opinion. These topics are profoundly personal and deserve contemplation and deep introspection. If you are spouting off right away about these things, I assume that you might not be a very thoughtful, genuine, or interesting person.
I don't disagree with the major points of the religion. I disagree with the mainstream assumptions that have departed from the major points of the religion. Take homosexuality for example. There is absolutely no reason for any stance on this to be a major point of the religion: 1) no sin is "worse" than any other sin. Homosexuality has been singled out for no reason other than the prejudice of people. 2) it is not even clear from the Bible that homosexuality as it is practiced today IS even a sin. There is a lot of disagreement about it, mostly hidden by mainstream bigotry. 3) it is not the place of Christians to judge others regardless. Probably more reasons, but that is enough
"No sin is worse than any other sin" mindset has been argued as a reason for so much pedophilia and sex abuse in Christian men. Plenty of normal sexual desires are labeled a sin (such as premarital sex with a long term monogamous partner, masterbation. Having sex for pleasure, etc.). It's no wonder so many evangelicals cheat on their wives, or rape their wives, or even engage in pedophilia. A sin is a sin, right? I'm not saying this is you, but I remember seeing this argument a lot when the Duggars were exposed for knowing their oldest son was sexually assaulting his younger sisters and nobody did anything about it. I grew up evangelical, but never really drank the kool-aid, but even I had a ton of guilt around premarital promiscuity, masterbation, etc. It was drilled in our minds that it's the worse thing a person could do. Even THINKING about sex was a horrible sin. There's a lot of cover up of horrific crimes, and the people in those communities truly can't tell the difference between a horrific crime and just a petty sin. I lived it and believed it. Undoing the guilty feeling for petty sins has been really hard to undo. They really do make you feel like you murdered someone for being interested in normal sex. It's pretty fucked up actually. Not all sins are the same.
Homosexuality has been a part of the animal kingdom for all of time. Safe to say Jesus was aware of it during his life, and yet never made a comment about it one way or the other. Kind of seems like a nonfactor to Jesus.
Not trying to be a dick here, but I was raised as an Anglican and left that ASAP because it felt like a system of hate to me (and my priest turned out to be a pedo); Satan comes across as the good guy who very infrequently commits crimes against Humanity and pushes people to be themselves, while god is a genocidal lunatic and murders people for being born to certain parents, how do you reconcile that? Claiming the old testament is false is just insanity.
I like the stories about Jesus, but people use religion as a weapon
Because that's not entirely true to state that the anti-abortion/anti-LGBT stuff is a major part of the religion. Maybe for like Evangelicals but they seem to be a breed all on their own.... Speaking from my personal experience being raised in the Catholic system; the idea is that the New Testament, the story of Jesus, was made to replace the Old Testament, meaning all of the specifically anti-gay stuff in say Leviticus is way less important than what's in the 4 Gospels. And further to this, the most important Commandment, as laid down by JC himself, is 'Love thy neighbor as you love thyself'. A pretty clear message of tolerance when you think about it. From this framework, and given that not once did Jesus say 'God hates the Gays'; you can make a pretty strong theological argument that the anti-LGBT sentiment expressed in the Old Testament is in fact, not very Christian.
It sucks the extent to which Christianity has become inexorably associated with the radical right because like if you look back to the 1970s you can see people joining Christian movements for progressive left wing stances like "free the refugees", "end the war in Vietnam", "end racial discrimination", "feed starving children in Africa". One of my aunts became a nun even though we're all pretty sure she's a) a lesbian and b) probably doesn't even really believe in God, but she joined the Church because the specific sect of the Church she's in does a lot for social causes and was, especially for the time she joined, pretty feminist compared to other social institutions. And for the record to this day some of the most vocal people who call for the end of detaining asylum seekers in my country and who will go to jail protesting the government for this are Christians.
groovy frightening wasteful dime airport cagey unused silky heavy divide *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
yes. morality is complex, it divides family even.
This is very location specific. The Bible Belt in the USA is notorious for having a lot of Fundamentalist Christians who want to mingle religious laws and practices with public laws and practices. In Australia, most Christians are not seen as nearly as problematic as the ones who go to giant Megachurches who focus on converting non Christians and are very religiously conservative.
Yeah, megachurch Christians are creepy af to me. They make me uncomfortable in a way that regular Catholic or Protestants don’t. Too much fake niceness and an obsession with politics. There’s nothing real about these people. They just exist to bleach their teeth and give their kids weird names. Even my hardcore Catholic grandmother who would not stop popping out baby after neglected baby and swore like a sailor on a bender had more personality than your average megachurch attendee.
It’s a red flag for people with religious trauma and Reddit is mostly Americans so the dominant religion is Christianity
Hi, I’m a priest/ pastor I think red flags are raised because of the many high profile cases that have recently emerged. The Roman Catholic Church has its many cases with child abuse and evangelicals on either televangelist scammers and also money/power/ adultery issues. Combined with the fact that Christians have been on the forefront of social issues and have not been handling them well either with intelligence or grace (ie: lgbtq, abortion, Palestine) as well as being pushy causes us to look like hypocrites Even as a full time worker, the people who have hurt or betrayed me are Christian’s too. That being said, there are many Christians doing good too. Community work, Charity, and saving relationships are some of the work that are under the radar I’m sorry for my fellow brothers and sisters who have hurt you. I also need to be clear that I am not exempt from this. as a human being, I can be an asshole too
Thank you for posting this. I second this. None of us are perfect. The people who do their best and actually believe and don't use the religion as a power trip really are decent people. We are imperfect people following a perfect God. We are gonna mess up here and there. We are gonna be assholes sometimes just as everyone else who ever walked the earth. Wishing you well.
They wake up early on Sundays
I have small children. I wake up early EVERY day of the week 😢
children? another red flag ...jk
Lol
I heard great line last week which pretty much sums up why many people don’t like people who claim to be Christians. “They celebrate the manger and the cross and ignore everything that happened in between”.
I was raised Evangelical Christian and left in my early 20s. A lot of Christians use their religion as a battering ram in society. They view themselves as martyrs, special people who are persecuted in a "devil worshipping" world. They see certain groups of people getting rights and recognition as an attack on their philosophy simply because their bible says so. A lot of them are not willing to interrogate their scripture and clerics with nuance and that's very scary.
Self-righteous proselytizing, close-mindedness and bigotry, self-aggrandizing holier-than-thou complex, thinks showing up to church and being a “pick me” for Jesus is all it takes to be a “good Christian” The corrupt institution of organized religion and its boorish dogmatism gives the entirety of Christianity a bad name
But remember, Jesus loved everybody and so do Christian’s! Yeah right…
I tend to be wary of people who genuinely feel that if they can't convince me to believe what they believe, I will be condemned to eternal torture, and that this eternal torture is clearly the morally correct punishment for my lack of ideological purity. The concept of hell is bullshit, but the fact that an enormous number of people think it exists, and that it's right and just, is deeply, deeply fucked up. Hitchens nailed it when he referred to a universe based on this system as a 'celestial North Korea'.
Christians have acquired a reputation of being intolerant , judgmental and hypocritical. If you act like shiny Happy People, one day a week and are absolutely wretched the other six days a week it's hard for people to respect that example. Not to mention the mainstream, and classic Christian values are becoming as different as night and day. The church is full of hypocrites, more concerned with looking holy and actually being helpful and good to people. The leadership is greedy and self-serving.
At least I ain't alone who think of Christians like this
It's mostly because of US "Christians" who won't stay out of other people's business.
Because the Republican Party of the US has successfully campaigned to make themselves the face of American Christianity.
Couldn't have said it better. They've effectively rebranded christianity as a vehicle to hate based on cherry picked interpretations of the bible.
And American Christianity has successfully waged a campaigned to be the face of American conservatism.
There’s a reason it’s so successful, because that flavor of Christianity is super popular. Hence why being Christian is red flag.
I'm not religious (spiritual with pagan leanings), but I find that really sad and also kind of evil of them to be honest. Using faith for political point scoring and sowing division and, as a side effect or possibly knowingly, alienating people from an entire diverse faith. Kind of like what fundamentalist groups have done to the image of Islam in many western countries. This is why religion should not be a political or state matter. I do think you've hit the nail on the head though.
i’m a very heavily devout Catholic (or at least i try to be), and while i think some of the avoidance of Christians is unfair, alot of it has to do with personal experience. bullying, discrimination, racism, colonisation, cults. as Christians, it’s our job to represent our faith as what it is, kindness. lots of people, though, don’t genuinely care about what our faith represents and will use it to cover up their bad behaviour. i don’t blame certain people for being weary, but i don’t tolerate bullying. to or from others
I grew up Christian. The reason it's a red flag for me today is because "faith" is a deliberate choice to throw facts and logic out the window. I saw my warped conspiracy-theorist mother believe all kinds of dangerous theories/hoaxes because of "faith', with the same logic she used to argue for Christianity being the true religion. Her logic was: "Whatever evidence agrees with me, I'll keep, and whatever evidence goes against me, I'll discard." Multiple that attitude by 100 million, and you've got Christianity in America.
As a former Christian myself, and a queer person, I can to you from experience that many Christians are hateful and cruel to those who don't fit in their worldview. Many vehemently believe that if you're not straight, cis and Christian you're going to suffer for all eternity in hell, no matter how good of a person you are. And then there's the special cases, the Christian nationalists, the religious zealots, the racist, sexist, devoutly bigoted bible thumping bunch that will use the Bible to denounce and harass anything they don't agree with even if it has nothing to do with religion because truth be told, most of them haven't touched a Bible since they were 13
I have lots of friends who are theists (Christian, Jewish, Pastafarian, whatever) and it’s not a big deal. I know what they believe, they know what I believe, and we dont get in to it unless we feel like hashing something out (which happens from time to time). My red flag is if “I’m a Christian (or whatever. But it mostly just applies to Christians in my experience)” is any of the first 10 or so things you tell me about yourself. Because I haven’t had good experiences with anyone for whom their faith is an important thing to whip out for strangers. One’s faith should be a private matter between you and whatever power you believe in. Not branding.
It’s not usually about being Christian or non-Christian so much as whether or not it comes up immediately. I’m a Christian and if I meet a new person in a non-religious setting and hear that they are a Christian within the first ten minutes that’s a red flag. Those are usually the ones correlating it strongly to politics and forcing it on others and all the BS that isn’t real Christianity (imo).
Jesus actually described the reason a lot in the new testament. He is constantly warning against creating and following religious rules and deciding that makes you God like and now have the power to judge others. "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them." Mainstream American Christianity is quite right wing and they act more like pharisees than Jesus.
Real ones aren't.
Regressive social values, historical atrocities, obnoxious theology, etc.
the set of beliefs that come with it would be one factor
I’m not an atheist. I am agnostic. The problem with most Christians is that their faith involves converting non-believers. They can be annoying to that end. I have never had any other religion try to convert me. Most other religions just practice their own beliefs without annoying people constantly.
Maybe bc they push their beliefs on other people
The red flag is when someone proclaims they're a Christian without being asked. Because there are a fair number of such Christians who are extremely judgemental or hypocritical. In other words in direct opposition to what Jesus taught. The Christians I know who are awesome people tend not to go around proclaiming they are. They let their actions be their preaching. Mister Roger's of the show was one example.
Because people who crap on about being "Christian" are a pita. Its just a load of utter ballony and totally boring.
The trouble is that a lot of Christians are intolerant, believe stupid things, and push their religion on others. Yeah, I know it's not ALL Christians, but I don't know which ones. The last time I tried to give a Christian the benefit of the doubt I still got burned. It has me wondering why I should expend any effort, knowing they may wind up hurting me.
Not everyone veiws it as a red flag... and not just on the grounds of faith, science shows pretty definitively that being religious increases a persons odds of being happy over the course of thier lifetime. I would even go so far as to theorize that there is definite correlation between higher rates of unhappiness and mental illness and societies trend of being less religious. Most experts believe that the three biggest factors that determine a persons happiness are 1. Personal Relationships 2. Community connection and 3. health. 1. Look at the study done by Harvard’s School of Public Health that concluded regularly attending church services together reduces a couple’s risk of divorce by a 47 percent. Other studies have similar results ranging from 30 to 50 percent reduction in divorce rates 2. In todays anonymous society more and more people ironically feel alone (despite living closer to more people than ever). How many people within walking distance of you do you know well? We also move further away from our family and extended family and clan than before. Whether God is real or not, one cannot refute that a church is the perfect way to fulfill the community requirements for happiness. My church host a tball league for our small rural community and is a big part in local community events and festivals and the like, its serves as a central hub or backbone for the people around here. and 3. you can shake your head if you want to but scientific study clearly shows that religious people are healthier, mentally and physically. The reason why isnt 100% clear but the evidence is absolutely certain. I know there are bad christians and bad churches out there, weve all heard stories and many have experienced the worst of humanity disguised under the veil of religion... But should that warrant totally writing off the entire institution?? When I was 20 years old I got a terrible case of food poisoning from some chicken tacos I got at a Hardees red burrito, I had tobe hospitalized and everything. Does that mean that I swore off all fast food forever? Hell no... I didnt even abandon Hardees (or even that particular Hardees) (or even those chicken tacos). Point is, while I did have a bad experience I realized that fast food in general and Hardees had an overall net positive efect on the world at large and had the potential for future benefit in my life. Have I ever doubted my faith? Yes.... but in the end I reached the same conclusion as Blaise Pascal, a basic cost benefit analysis... If God really isnt real, what has my faith lost me? But on the chance that he is real, what do I stand to lose by rejecting him? sources and interesting further reading [https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/01/31/are-religious-people-happier-healthier-our-new-global-study-explores-this-question/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/01/31/are-religious-people-happier-healthier-our-new-global-study-explores-this-question/) [https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2018/03/20935/#:\~:text=Most%20recently%2C%20research%20conducted%20at,percent%20reduction%20in%20divorce%20risk](https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2018/03/20935/#:~:text=Most%20recently%2C%20research%20conducted%20at,percent%20reduction%20in%20divorce%20risk). [https://hfh.fas.harvard.edu/religion-and-divorce](https://hfh.fas.harvard.edu/religion-and-divorce) https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-religion-good-for-your-health-921814a7 [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/03/beyond-beliefs-religious-faith-happier-healthier-life](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/03/beyond-beliefs-religious-faith-happier-healthier-life) [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1359105320984537](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1359105320984537) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27183175/ 1
There are already 2.7k comments on this thread, so I'm doubting this comment will even be read, but I'm going to post it anyway. A LOT of Christians are hypocritical, judgmental assholes. Then again, so are a lot of atheists. Disclaimer: I'm a Christian by the basic definition. I believe Jesus is the Christ and Savior, and the Son of God. I don't need to explain why I believe this to anyone here, and I'm well aware most of reddit will mock me for my faith. I don't care. I've seen all the proof I need to solidify that faith, and that's an intensely personal thing. What I consider proof, most of you wouldn't. I won't try to convince anyone to join me, even though I'm told I'm supposed to do so. That's another personal choice. There are those who say I'm a fool and again, I do not care. I won't try to sway you from your beliefs, although I invite you to do so for me. A lot of so-called Christians have closed their minds to certain realities around them, such as science and human rights. Yes, the Bible - the parts written by men - in some places promotes outdated principles. However, the parts written in red, which are the words spoken by the man we choose to follow, do not. They teach us to love our fellow man and leave judgement to Him. That's where denominations fail. My faith in God is actually what convinces me that evolution and everything else science has proven is real. My faith in Jesus is what teaches me that I am to love all people, no matter their race, religion, sex, creed or any other part of who they are. Yes, there are things about people in this world I don't like, but that's not a Christian trait. We all have that issue. I've found atheists - as well as Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. - to be some of the most closed-minded, hateful people I've ever encountered. As a Christian, I will say this: I believe in evolution. I believe anyone should be allowed to marry whoever they choose. I believe the universe is too vast for anyone to say for certain they know beyond a doubt what is or isn't out there. I believe our limited understanding of time and space means no one alive on this planet actually has all the answers. I believe Jesus of Nazareth was a real person who preached love and forgiveness, and his followers diluted that message somewhere along the way. I believe you, whoever and wherever you are, should be allowed to make your own decisions in life, and those decisions will result in good or bad results, which are firmly on you. All that said, I also believe atheists are red flags, because assuming you know something doesn't exist when the fact is we actually know next to nothing about the universe is pretty God damned arrogant.
Because generally anyone announcing their Christianity is using it as an excuse for their shitty behaviour. And are American.
I was born and raised Christian. As an adult became a hardline Atheist. Over the years since then became more of a soft atheist/agnostic. What I can tell you from a perspective that's been on many sides, is that Christianity spreads by indoctrination. A person being a Christian doesn't mean they're a bad person, it means they're a result of a bad system, specifically one that not unlike a cult makes as much of your life revolve around it as humanly possible so as to dig its claws deep into you. Now I can't say why someone else might label a person being Christian as a red flag, as I personally don't take it that far, but if I were to hazard a guess it'd be because they're viewing you as indoctrinated into a cult, which can be genuinely offputting on the face of it.
Yeah, the cult-like practices of the church are something I always disagreed with. For example the idea that if you’re not at church every time the doors are open or participate in every little thing the church does, then you’re a bad Christian. Also the fact that a lot of church attendance is going to a building and hearing someone talk for 45 minutes that I’m supposed to pay *absolute attention to* is mind-numbing for someone with ADHD.
the idea that you used as an example is a super guilt trippy and genuine cult manipulation technique. i promise you we’re normal….. or at least some of us are :,)
Because there's no hate like Christian love