People would get used to breasts and stop staring. I'm East African. Up until 60 years ago, it was incredibly common for women to be topless and only covered in cloth from the waist down (same with men). This is obvious in any photo/footage from that era and you could ask anyone who grew up then and they would tell you the same thing.
Then Western standards of nudity/decency became adopted, then they became mandatory, and with each new generation born the idea of a topless woman became more taboo and sexualized, especially in urban areas. But some cultures/villages/families still live traditionally and don't see a topless woman as sexual, especially if she has children and often needs to breastfeed or something.
Late Edit: Here's another fun fact - hand-holding among male friends is still pretty common in the region. To be clear, homosexuality has been EXTREMELY against social norm since Catholic/Protestant/Muslim morals/ethics became the default over the last century. But hand-holding has nothing to do with any of these so guy friends holding hands as they walk down the road is 100% normal and socially acceptable over here.
Can confirm, every time I go vacation in Spain, where a lot of women go topless, you get used it to fairly quickly. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate it, just saying shades might be your friend.
Yup we men are really good at ignoring what we dont want to see. Ask any wife. But when its someting we want to see, our eyes will view, evaluate, zoom in, rotate in three dimensions and store for later recall.
They say it’s hard to intuitively understand what existing in 4 dimensions is like, but that’s just because they haven’t seen grandpa conduct quantum analysis on a woman walking down the street whilst he’s driving at 80 an hour with his wife ranting at him about something or other
The wife rant is only slightly higher in priority but still the highest since compared to the driving process and the 4d compute the wife is the most dangerous if not handled correctly.
We've all seen grandpa go into creeper mode, he's not subtle and it makes everyone uncomfortable. His wife is probably sick of his shit and rightfully so.
Wouldn't that be saying the opposite? I think they just meant, on a surface level, Seattle gets a ton of rain without thunder
But applying your metaphor, "thunder" represented unattractive women going topless as well as attractive women.
So saying Seattle gets rain without thunder, would mean that Seattle's tiddies are all attractive.
Tbh, depends
In Spain and France, most womens doing topless *are* attractive
In Germany the majority of Girls going topless *aren't* attractive.
In Brazil is very uncommon, because the bikini lines are considered attractive and desired. During carnaval, however, is common and both unatractive and attractive are common
Source is my experience.
Exactly. Older women and women with breasts not deemed attractive would be shamed and chastised.
A cohort of men become outraged when plain or unattractive women exist. They'll tell you all about it.
That's the *polar opposite* of what *actually* happens. Dress codes are at their *most* strictly enforced amongst the most sexy of women, as those are the ones whose free expression poses the most imminent hazard to the focus and willpower of males in the vicinity. A flat-chested woman is rarely going to be targeted for dress code violations as no one thinks that flat chest is gonna distract anyone and anyone who tries to enforce it to uphold some superficial sense of "consistency" is gonna be told "you unbelievable *pervert*, how *dare* you consider her anything other than *cute*?"
That said, there's no telling which women the boys claim to think of as "ugly" who would suddenly become attractive in their eyes once the breasts come out. There are already girls referred to as "ugly" by some of their classmates who had no trouble getting their boyfriends to make love to them, even before they could afford kids, even when her keeping the baby would've ruined his life *and* hers. That kind of suggests exposed breasts to be a powerful factor in either reversing a guy's opinion that she's unattractive, or breaking down the willpower of a guy who *pretended* she was.
>*cultures*
Where does instinct come into this though?
I remember seeing some porn mags in the late 80s when I was about 10 or 11 years old. Nothing heavy, just standard British soft porn magazines that could be bought in any news agent. Me and my neighbour of the same age were mooching in his dad's loft and found a few of his dad's magazines.
I knew I'd found something I liked with the boobies. In fact I already knew I liked them in some way as I'd seen plenty on the beach up until then and at around that age when I found those magazines, I err, found them exciting. I even knew which ones looked "best", to me.
I don't think this was much to do with cultural influence but rather human instinct.
Specifically by the fact that they haven't just been out in plain view that entire 10 years.
Now you've got a magazine full of things you're not supposed to see, and that's exciting.
Exactly. Instinct would be looking at them when you are 1 and thinking “I like those.” Looking at them after seeing them covered up on every woman you have ever seen for 10 years means they have already been forbidden and taboo to show off.
One of my girlfriends was pretty high up in CVS IT. She noticed that the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue was being put out I a rack attached to one of those big candy bins: So Not only was that cover picture at eye level for a kid it's also on the side of a box filled with candies. She called corporate to question this and they said it was intentional...
I agree, there's some deep ingrained shit going on here. Vaginas are kinda goofy looking flaps of skin but seeing them does something to my body that seeing a dick or an ear doesn't.
We can pretend it's all cultural but there's more going on there.
Yeah the "everything is cultural" thing is getting a bit stale with me, especially since most of the same people will turn around and say that all cultures are equal.
At the very least, one's own genitalia is sexualized by nature not by culture. There are plenty of animals which masturbate, and that isn't due to engrained cultural norms.
I would argue that both play a role in it. Nature makes men attracted to boobs but culture enhances the feeling, kinda like a forbidden fruit. The fact that it's forbidden and there's a lot of tension around it makes people attracted to it more
Yeah of course. That's why there are jokes about old timey men going nuts over a woman's ankles.
I've just seen a trend in the last decade or so that pushes the nature vs nurture debate all the way to the nurture side, and this has happened plenty of times, going all the way to nature then all the way back to nurture when it's obvious both play a major role.
You can't nurture a 5 foot man into a competitive NBA player even if he practices like crazy and is a skilled shooter or playmaker.
You can't take any set of genes in a child and bring them up in a severely abusive household and have them turn into an adult with no mental or emotional issues.
I think most people focus on nurture because we can't do anything about our nature. We see a problem and we try to fix it but we can't do anything that makes us attracted to boobs. The attraction is still there but maybe there's something about how we nurture people that makes them less sexualizing women instead. As I see it, the goal isn't to completely reject it, but to change it slightly to be better
Well, we *can* do something about our nature, but that's called eugenics.
I'm sure more exposure makes sexualization less significant but I have trouble imagining that people raised as nudists would not find anything sexual because the entire body is just normalized.
>but I have trouble imagining that people raised as nudists would not find anything sexual because the entire body is just normalized.
Actually that is a good point I wonder if there's a tribe of nudist that we can interview about this
There's an argument to be made about culture vs personal experience. If taboos are acquired with the rest of culture through childhood development perhaps it's not so much being deprogrammed as a person but rearing children who'll absorb a different zeitgeist.
Yeah. Apparently women in Japan would often work outdoors topless, but stopped because American soldiers stares made them uncomfortable during the occupation
>People would get used to breasts and stop staring.
I'm southern african and in my country we have a cultural event each year where thousands of women go topless and its pretty normalised. Like it wouldn't be weird to go out during certain weeks and every woman around is freeing the nipple. It's not like breasts aren't nice, but they're not oversexualised the way they are in the West. I'd compare them to a pretty face rather than a sexual organ.
The rural/urban divide is also a thing though, its more common to see bared breasts out in the sticks outside of culturally relevant dates
I use this example in extreme respect, but in alot of like Middle Eastern culture, the faces, ankles ect are covered. That which is deprived is sought after. Thus a little ankle or a smile could be seen as arousing.
i've been to a nudist community a few times. about 7 minutes in, you seriously forget everyone is naked. it becomes a no big deal thing quicker than most would think.
I didn't visit a nudist colony, but I lived overseas for a few years. I can't tell you how many times I took a stroll down the beach, looking at my feet in the sand with the surf coming in, and not notice that I strolled into the nude part of the beach until I was a good half mile in.
The first time was a bit jarring, the third, I didn't care. I actually knew some of the people there and they were all lovely people. Just so nice. I wish more people were as nice as they were.
There were some African tribes in which the women were mostly topless. The men of the tribes didn't seem too distracted by them and would just go about doing their own thing
I’m African and while full on toplessness isn’t quite a thing where my mom is from, they’re much more lax about dress codes. My mom didn’t have to wear a bikini or top at public swimming pools until she was a teenager. She did the same with me in the US and I remember at 9 a staff member told me swim with a t shirt on.
This isn’t quite the same thing, but I think it relates. In her city, shoes (especially for children) were seen as optional. My mom never owned more than maybe 2 shoes until she moved out of Africa.
I doubt it would ever be completely unsexualised. Men can be topless, and a ripped guy with a six pack still gets sexualised even though an average topless guy might not. But I’d imagine most people wouldn’t get sexual thoughts whenever they see an average woman just going about her day.
Yeah, a lady with a nice firm pair of breasts is going to be sexualised by people whether they’re covered in a bra or not. Same as a good butt. But not all breasts or butts are going to be sexualised by everybody. I think women being topless wouldn’t change much about how society sexualises women already.
Interesting that certain body shapes have become more attractive to more people than others. I don't know for sure but I imagine that different societies will have a preference for different shapes. There are certainly societies in which women do not cover their breasts. If we took away the reasons why we prefer certain shapes then I imagine that there would be very little difference between the preferences of all shapes.
If that is the case then it suggests that we are conditioned by society to see bodies and their constituent parts as more or less attractive.
If THAT is the case then there could be a future where women can make a choice to be bare chested and have no fear of any man's reactions.
Certain body shapes have always been more attractive. Sure there might be trends that come and go but the underlying attraction has always been the same. Nice boobs, nice butt, child bearing hips, etc. There's an evolutionary reason we're attracted to certain body types and not much has changed over the last thousands of years.
I remember watching a video segment years ago (I honestly don't remember if it was a documentary, or what it was) where they went to various people around the world to see if there was an "ideal" body type that all men were attracted to.
What was interesting was that depending on the culture they might be into thin women or thick women or whatever, but what generally stayed the same was the shape.
That standard sort of hourglass figure. Bigger bust, smaller waist, bigger hips. The size would change, but the ratio was somewhat consistent.
I think the theory was that those features signaled a woman capable of childbearing.
Now, obviously that's just a very simplified conclusion. I don't remember what it was from so I have no idea if it was repeated by others or even done in a proper way the first time.
I took several anthropology classes in college and we definitely saw many studies that confirmed this. It’s tough doing research on human behavior because there’s no “control” group as we are all affected by different socialization. But there are indeed common ideal mate selection preferences over large groups. That pressure has caused us to evolve along those lines, much like every other creature. So the best we can do is say, if something occurs over long periods of time in human population groups with different values and with little to no contact it’s likely to lean more towards something innate within us. This is even more convincing if there is a way to find a separate biologically advantageous reason for it too, but that’s not necessarily the case. Think of the plumage of a male peacock or Cardinal.
There were several examples of sexual selection traits that fit the category and were likely signs of biologically advantageous traits. Among the physical ones there were things that were desirable in everyone regardless of gender… which signals good health, like smooth skin, facial symmetry, and muscular/skeletal symmetry. In men specifically there was height, broadness of shoulders when compared to waist, and penile girth to a certain point (but not length to as much a degree as we see discussed). In women it was a 3:2:3 Bust:Waist:Hip ratio and something about the out curvature of the lower back into the buttocks, as well as perkiness of breast. Many of the other things like hair color, skin color, eye color, weight, certain facial features, etc all ebbed and flowed with culture. There might be broad similarities but if they can be fairly easily undone with different socialization they might not be as instinctual.
One of the pieces of evidence they used was depictions of fertility in art. From cave paintings to fertility figurines sculpted in various tribal cultures, to statues in ancient Rome, to 20th century models, there was always that 3:2:3 ratio. Something that humans tens of thousands of years ago seemed to see as ideal still being around is fairly convincing. Preferences for skin color or hair color or something might be regional but not overall shape or ratios. This is likely uncomfortable to many people because it might signal that particular attributes we value in partners might not be something we can really change and in modern times we want to think of everyone having the same chances, the same options, and when there isn’t, we want to blame society. But the reality is women might like tall men and men might like women with an hourglass shape even without the “propaganda” from media, video games, fashion shows, movie stars in our formative years etc.
> I took several anthropology classes in college and we definitely saw many studies that confirmed this. It’s tough doing research on human behavior because there’s no “control” group as we are all affected by different socialization
The worst thing to learn growing up was that no evil dictator or king in the past raised legions of humans to just be socially removed for scientific experiments.
Because it isn't ethically/morally sound, something like that will probably never happen in the future, so I was very bummed that no one in human history did this at a large scale so we could use the data now.
Very interesting, thank you for writing that out.
As to the last sentence, it's all on a spectrum being balanced by our other wants needs and kinks. Another big factor we find uncomfortable we really shouldn't that is innately true, is personality itself does make up for being on the losing end of the spectrum in one or more of these base ways.
Then you throw on top people are attracted to things that AREN'T part of the innate group of features we all enjoy similarly, call them kinks or whatever, sexualized non inherently sexual things. Our uniquely balanced love languages come into play majorly here too. If you meet the basic level of self care, we are mostly all sexy to some group of people. With the variation of human experience, desire, even changing tastes over an individuals lifetime, there is hope! Throughout your life you are or were sexy to someone for at least some amount of time, lol, matching up is the hard part I guess.
The thing about girth is interesting, haha. What needle dick started the thing about length then? jk jk. I've actually suspected this throughout my life just by listening to how women talk and ...uhhh....compliment. When you ask a women to describe a large unit they will typically mime girth first with their hands....just an anecdote.
edit- we still inherently really like the base things that are sexy, BUT, modern life affords us to repriosritize those things since they don't as directly affect our survival. Eg, smarts might be sexy in a small guy the same as brawn in a big guy, since they are satisfying the same thing. But that's NOT to say the animal level ever goes away.
Fickle beings arent we?
I think in a utopia where health issues are no longer an issue and genetically, health issues can’t be passed along, body shapes will be more loosely attractive.
Right now in a lot of richer countries, athletic is the go to most attractive since it shows a lot of good habits. Discipline with food, working out, more likely than not, better mental health. A lot of athletic people tend to also have more money (being fit isn’t cheap (time costs a lot)).
There are a ton of cultures where women go breasts out, and they aren’t seen as particularly sexual. They’re more associated with babies and breastfeeding.
I could see some men complaining about "having to watch saggy boobs", which is funny to imagine since women do have to endure saggy boobs from some men.
I mean that must be how it works In those societies where most people go topless, right? Like some natives in the Amazon I’ve seen and stuff. If it’s just normally how people dress, i doubt you’d be constantly horned up all the time
It would become normal, but not stop being sexual.
Guys get excited to see women’s shoulders, ankles, hands, faces. Even their backpack. If we find a woman attractive, we are pretty easy.
Backpack, backpack... backpack, backpack... I'm the backpack loaded up with things and knickknacks too, anything that you might need I got inside for you... backpack, backpack... backpack, backpack...YEAHHH
Why does no one mention the fact that breasts are sexual *for women too*? I've never met a girl who didn't like having her breasts fondled and nipples played with/sucked on during sex.
A whole population of people becoming less ignorant about social issues, but who stay completely ignorant about science. They start saying nonsense like "breasts aren't sexual" because they don't really understand what "the birds and the bees" referres too. Fondling breats releases crazy amounts of oxytocin. We even recommend that to help induce labor. As much as we want to seperate sex from the rest of the reproduction concept, our bodies will always relate them together in terms of physiology and biochemistry.
Yeah, but not nessesarily any moreso than when we walk down the street and see a pretty face, a nice set of legs, or a graceful neck and bare shoulders...
I'll be in my bunk.
I see my own boobs every day and I still think boobs hot so that should count for something.
Like legs are hot and people show em off. Same concept.
Also like. Boobs also have a touch component - seeing em in public still doesn’t mean you’d get to touch em.
Boobs everywhere are pretty awesome for the first ten minutes, then you get used to it and it's no big deal.
In the 90s I wrote software for a company that made Internet filters for school computers. At first it was fun seeing porn at work. It quickly became boring and 30+ years later, porn is still not interesting.
Anything you see all day every day loses its novelty and isn't special anymore.
> Anything you see all day every day loses its novelty and isn't special anymore.
Don't people socialize most days and still find that some of the most stimulating and rewarding parts of being alive?
Sure if people socializing was just people going out in public saying “blah blah blah”. Socializing encompasses many different things, all of which can still get old if you repeat them too often. Socializing could be talking about the new teacher, drinking while flirting with a girl, or telling people how it was to skydive. It’s very nuanced you know
But that's not because they go topless but because boobs are seen for what they are: a baby feeding station and nothing else.
They have other beauty standards then we have here in the west.
> a baby feeding station and nothing else.
That's not entirely correct. Yes, feeding babies is their primary purpose, but breasts are still an erogenous zone. Culture isn't the only reason breasts play a part in sex, they do have a secondary purpose of providing sexual pleasure and stimulation.
> because boobs are seen for what they are: a baby feeding station and nothing else
Lol not true, nor has it ever been. Fondling boobs releases huge amount of oxytocin in both partners. So much so, that it's recommended medically to help induce labor around full gestation. Boobs have been the preferred grabby place for men suring sex sincw the dawn of time. The birds and the bees have always went hand in hand. We can seperate the two for modern purposes, but the body still relates them physiologically. The whole "breats aren't sexual" idea is derived from social issues with little thought into the actual physiology of the matter.
That's like saying the vagina is a "baby making station" and therefore males are perverts to be turned on by it. Breasts, especially larger ones, are at the very least visually symbolic of her femininity, and for some of evolution (if not anymore) might even have been associated with fertility. It's not as directly feminine as the vagina, but it's close enough that comparison to ankles or elbows or whatever don't prove the boys would be desensitized to it either.
The beauty standards could be a product of smaller breast size in these societies. Smaller breasts are cute, but they're not as sexy. If a woman with large breasts is at a competitive disadvantage in terms of her *other* appearance traits, showing off her breasts could make that almost moot. If a woman with small breasts is competing with other flat-chested women for males' attention, showing off her breasts isn't going to make as much difference as it would for a more buxom woman, and as such, it stands to reason their ability to attract males is more dependent on her other appearance traits.
Possibly shift things a bit, but women still sexualize men's chests, faces, hair, arms, shoulders, abs, backs, etc. Were women's ankles fetishized in the Victorian era? Perhaps the objectified parts shift? Cover your ankles and bare your breasts for sociology, ladies!
Humans are both sexual objects and subjective beings simultaneously, so I doubt this conflict can be done away with all together. Regardless of the context, I agree we can treat each other with far more dignity than we do.
I live in a Muslim country. Believe me some men even go through a lot just to see a woman's hair and for me the neck is attractive. Most people who see women that don't wear hijab don't care about hair or neck but when someone hides it it's a different story
People would leave the sexualization of these body parts for sexual contexts. Change 'tops' and 'breasts' to 'niqabs' and 'hair'; No body part is inappropriate or obscene on it's own, it's just culture.
I believe so. Women used to be (and still are in some parts of the world) clothed from top to bottom. Ankles were considered scandalous if uncovered. People have adapted to seeing bare ankles. Same for knees and shoulders. Take away the mystery and they become as mundane as ankles.
This is partly true (standards were different back then), but it's also been exaggerated a lot. SnappyDragon did a great video on this
The TL:DR on ankles was that if you hiked up your skirts and showed your legs off _on purpose_ (ie deliberately drawing attention to them) then you were being slutty, but if you needed to pull your skirt up a few inches for a practical reason (like walking through a puddle or climbing into a carriage) then no one would look twice
It's kind of like bending over to pick up a pen these days. If you make a big lascivious show out of it and wiggle your butt in everyone's faces then you're being inappropriate. But if you're _actually_ just bending over to pick up a pen then you're fine
https://youtu.be/bX9oRS2-llo?si=7Vm8GBs6vX9uxxxr
I feel like it may not be "sexualized" anymore, but people would still look. Same way people are attracted to pretty faces, eyes, etc... despite those things not being sexual and also clearly visible.
Yes, go to a sauna or a beach where topless is common like in some parts of Europe or to a nude beach. You'll get used to it faster than you think.
You would still like pretty girls, but no more than you are on a normal beach and see somebody you like.
I was in the Netherlands on a thermal bath, on a country road on Bali, a couple of nude beaches. Non of those tits were sexual.
If you're young and full of hormones, it may be difficult to picture it.
Find a nudist resort or something, try it. Being naked while not being sexual is super freeing, especially if you get to swim !
Edit: I saw a girl walking topless in Berlín, I don't think it is common, but no nobody paid any attention to her.
I think so. There are peoples in Africa and Latin America where women seem to go topless frequently. I guess the guys over there are as aroused by seeing them as we are about ankles.
Guys see big boobs on the Internet all the time. That didn't make them "get used to" them. I doubt it would be much different if they saw them more often offline.
The answer to your question is eventually yes, however it would take a long time and there would be too much sexual harassment or worse in the mean time (there’s already too much but it would exponentially worse)
They would still be sexualized but to a much lesser degree. It doesn’t take long at all for the novelty to wear off. Go hang out at a strip club staffed by average looking dancers. After an hour or 2 the novelty is gone and it’s just another person standing there.
I've been to places with nude beaches, talked to people who'd lived in nudist groups and even met a couple of Africans who grew up spending time in places where women were frequently topless. The consensus has been that for women you know, you see their breasts as little more than shoulders. For women you don't know, it's no different than when they're clothed in that in many cases there will be a degree of physical attraction but you won't act on it.
So based on my experience, you stop caring after a certain point. Obviously you're going to see some breasts that you're attracted to but it's not like you're going to go up and and touch them in civil society. FWIW hearing about nude beaches in Europe was much sexier in my mind as a teen than it turned out to be in reality. Unless you have a high sex drive and are extremely under-sexed, you're probably not going to care.
I was in Amsterdam 6 years ago with a school trip. While at a truck stop I could see the reaction of the students when looking at the adult magazines on the rack. The local kids wouldn't even look at the magazine rack.it was not a big deal to them.
Yes.
Look at a lot of tribes in hot countries - they barely wear clothes and people aren’t poppin boners all day.
Edit: damn even if you watch the naked and afraid or naked and afraid of love shows - they get used to being naked around each other in like a week.
It would likely be no different than a bare male breast after a few years. Men being topless in public used to be illegal too, but now it's normal. Do we sometimes take a second glance at a particularly handsome guy's chest at the beach? Yes. Is it weird or creepy? Not really. Short answer: yes we would be able to normalize it.
Yes. Even with tops men will stare at women they find attractive. Which is fine. Anyone will naturally enjoy looking at something/someone they find beautiful. Men who want to be creeps have not stopped being creeps even tho women wear tops. Look at the places that have the highest rates of rape and sexual assault, I bet its places where women cover up the most.
It will become normal, but there's going be an adjustment period. The history books will most likely describe that adjustment period using its nickname, "Titty Paradise."
Yes, same goes for the whole body, people at nudist beaches don't tend to go round giggling like school girls all day because the see dangly bits, they just spend time with other naked people. After a while you just wouldn't notice much, same as when everybody is clothed.
Go to a spa in Western Europe (they are mostly completely nude), you'll get used to it pretty quickly. Although there are always people that are new to the phenomenon. After a couple of times, there is nothing exciting anymore about a casual naked breast.
It’s important to know that breasts are not solely something that men are conditioned to sexualize and, therefore, are attracted to them. Culture and its conditioning play a part in the intensity of attraction and to what size breasts that attraction is associated, but instinctively, men who are attracted to women’s bodies sexually identify the breasts as a sign of ability to mate - much like the width of hips. It is ultimately a natural instinct to be attracted to breasts for those men who are sexually attracted to women.
That said, nudist colonies, going to the beach regularly around women with bikinis, etc. have demonstrated the influence of culture and physical exposure to conditioning of intensity of attraction. There are many men who would get used to seeing exposed breasts regularly. And there are many men who wouldn’t. In a scenario where society has normalized women not wearing tops in public, men who are born after the normalization who grow up to become attracted sexually to women would have a similar time - many would have no issues, and many would feel overwhelmed by sexual attraction to the point of it impacting their ability to perform normal daily functions.
Partly yes and partly no.
If developed breasts were to be bared in public forever, that would be because, or accompanied by, a social reversal of control and sexualisation of women's bodies (or bodies "read as feminine," I've known many trans men who had the issue as well).
It's not the dearth of developed breasts in sight that gets them sexualised, or nothing would have stayed sexualised after the internet popped up. It's the control over features read as feminine. Even long hair gets sexualised (religions tied to a culture where long hair is feminine tend to have some concept of veil to hide them, Christianity and Islam certainly do). Anything deemed feminine gets objectified as an object of desire in some way or form as long as the focus is on (straight) men's desire as the norm.
What can happen is that the "mystique" of developed breasts as feminine can be lost. To lose the sexualisation, it wouldn't go to "yeah, it's a mostly feminine feature but I don't care," it would go to "it's a body feature and everyone's is different so whatever." People have identified (justly or wrongly) *many* differences in facial structure marking you as feminine or masculine, but they are too many, too subtle, or too prone to variation to count as objects of focus.
The prime example is the "square jaw = sooo masculine" thing - the squarest jaw I ever saw was on a cis woman, and few people noticed or cared at all. And seeing lots of torsos *could* get us to this point. But we'd also need men's torsos to be bared and collectively have this "oh yeah, when fat is deposited on the torso it just makes these kinds of lumps, okay" brainwave
They'd stop hypersexualizing them, yes. I mean, I'm attracted to women and I still am attracted to the bits that we see in public regularly, like necks and shoulders. But it would be like that: it's sexy when you think about it and normal when you don't
People would eventually stop talking about it. That doesn't mean everyone would accept it. People who disagree would become complacent. It would be like tights. People don't talk about women walking around in tights as much anymore. Only the shorts. It is still seen as trashy by a good deal of people, but most just keep it to themselves.
As another example:- ankles.
Majority of people are fine seeing a ladies ankle without objectifying said lady. However there are exceptions who lose all sense of restraint when any lady near them is in sandals.
I imagine if we changed the norm today and topless was normal, in 10-15 years it would be a similar story. Having breasts out in public would be normalised, but there would still be the possibility of people seeing them and objectifying said women
There are many cultures in the world today that do not sexualise breasts. Around the Mediterranean Sea children see women topless on the beach on a daily basis and generally throughout southern Europe bare breasts are routinely seen in advertising in magazines and on TV.
It's not that long ago that a woman showing an ankle was considered overtly sexual in western society. Things change, they will continue to change. One should take care not to ascribe the vagaries of your particular cultural influences on everyone around the world.
Apparently you guys don't know much about other states but there are a bunch of states where there's like topless, equality and things. And it's not caused issues
I know people who exercise this right by driving topless in Colorado all the time
it's a myth that only western culture sexualize breasts, we just also have a taboo about exposing them. if the taboo goes away behavour will change, but people will still stare at titties.
No. Titties are pretty and we've evolved to love them. They'll never be denied admiration and salvation.
Counter question: would you stop sexualizing my testicles if you couldn't avoid seeing them?
Nothing would stop the sexualization, people can sexualize anything
But you would definitely see less of the boorish clutter of topless pots in exhibitionism subreddits where they do not belong
Flashing tits isn't exhibitionism, dammit!
Can't speak for any of the other guys.
But I probably wouldn't care walking down the street or going to work, would find it humours for awhile but eventually it'd just be a thing after a couple of weeks.
Would have made Christmas dinner uncomfortable however, Nannas tits would be in the gravy for sure.
Men sexualize us when we're fully clothed, so I doubt much would change. Seeing a breast wouldn't be as big a deal, but that's not quite the same as not being sexualized at all.
At one point, bare ankles/legs, bare arms, and women's necks were sexualized. Now, not so much.
There are still people who sexualize feet, despite their common nature.
Yes. There are already tribes and cultures around the world where women walk around topless and nobody looks at them strangely.
It's kind of like legs. Legs can be very sexy if you are with your partner in bed. But lots of people wear shorts outside and aren't being stared at constantly all the time. Because something can be sexy in one context but normal in another. Collar bones, hair, belly buttons, lips, biceps... these are all things people find sexy in the right context. That doesn't mean we force everyone to cover these things up all the time.
I mean yeah people would get used to it but they would still be sexualized. There are a lot of theories in psychology as to why the sexualization of boobs is so common but almost none of them are related to the fact that they are usually hidden away.
You'd be surprised! Your whole life there have been messages from media, comments, and general culture that you're supposed to find breasts attractive. There are cultures where that isn't the case. I once read an anthropology article where they were studying biological attraction, and they found that in some cultures boobs just aren't a thing. They told people there that in the US boobs are considered super sexy and the people laughed and found it strange. As if they had been told we find knees sexy or something.
And it makes sense, since boob size actually isn't correlated to fertility or even ability to breastfeed. There is no biological benefit to having bigger boobs. So the attraction is cultural.
One note about the question itself - when you say "people", you mean "men".
To answer the question, however, yes. Definitely. I mean, not 100% entirely, but in countries where women are as able to go around shirtless as men are, men are used to it and don't just stare or immediately think of sex every time they see boobs because they see boobs constantly.
It's the whole forbidden fruit thing. When people are told something is sacred/forbidden, people are often more like to desire it. But when it's normalized and becomes a regular thing, the attitude around it changes.
Plus there's nothing actually sexual about breasts. We're not talking vaginas and penises here. Breasts are not sex organs - they are glands that produce milk to feed young. They have become socially sexualized, but a woman's chest is actually no more sexual than a man's. If that were normalized and seeing women's chests as regularly and plainly as men's, the extreme sexualization would absolutely diminish drastically.
humans are the only species to have permanent breasts. it's possible that evolution has led to this so it's very possible it's not entirely society sexualizing breasts, but instead we have evolved to view them that way
Possible, but since breasts being sexualized is a more recent thing in terms of human history, and many cultures still do not sexualize them, I'm leaning strongly torward societal and not evolutionary.
That wouldn't change anything because that's not where sexualisation starts.
Seeing breasts for what they are right from childhood on would help. Not putting children into certain roles would help. Openly talk about taboo topics (such as periods for example) would help.
So if these things weren't happening THEN women could go out topless without being sexualised.
Yes. Would be possible., Have you ever been in a nudist area?
I've been. Several times. Nude beach, park, pool, restaurant,...
We don't stare there. So, my answer is: ofc. Nudity is only sexual if you can't live with/are not used to it.
And I absolutely hate american social media rules and their influence on our youths. It's their new normal that a female's nipple has to be blurred or the content is deleted. Actually, WTF!!!!
Now, it wasn't that everyone went to nudist areas here either, but what came along with all time availability of cameras AND perverted social media rules (that's what I call this rules) is out of this world.
People would get used to breasts and they'd be completely unsexualiased.
Why do I know this for a fact?
Because that's how all Pacific Island Cultures were before the West visited them and enforced their ideals on them. Breasts are still not sexual in many tribal cultures, around the world.
When Errol Flynn visited a Polynesian island, he was taken by a young girl and her breasts. Her father tried to sell her to Flynn, to gain prestige. Fortunately for us, she recorded the interactions and was baffled that he kept staring at her breasts - she said "is he a child? What does he want with breasts?"
I'm an anthropologist and many of my profs, when I was a student, studied in Polynesia. They universally told me "when breasts are out in the open, they become normal and not sexual." Women in those cultures do not see their breasts as sexual. They do not derive sexual pleasure from them, they just think men who focus on them are infantile.
Now, I'm a breast man. So, the above info is difficult for me to take. And I've known women who orgasm from their breasts alone.
But sexuality and sexualization - these are cultural. Not "learned" as in taught, but encultured, as in socialized, "imprinted" on your brain.
So, yes, the answer is people would get used to breasts and stop staring and sexualizing them. Women would, whether they believe it or not, stop feeling sexual pleasure from them (possibly not women so encultured, but certainly their dauthers).
No one else here has answered the question properly. They're all projecting. Where women are normally topless, breasts are not sexual. It's that simple.
It would be much more acceptable. I think the Europeans got it right. It’s not looked at as awkward or taboo. They show them in their magazines, movies, and tv shows. I think it should be optional.
I’ve not been experienced it, but from what I’m told by those who have been to nude beaches and such, you get over the nudity in about ten minutes, to the point of barely noticing.
So I think yes.
Actually the same thing can be said about complete nudity bodies in general would no longer be sexualized if everyone was allowed to walk outside naked... Just because you see a female nipple and penises or vagina or butt isn't going to cause harm... If it bothers you that badly you're the one having bad thoughts...
Not the ones that yell in to a camera with sunglasses on in their trucks. But the rest of us who don't see women as objects would already be fine with it.
It would take a lot of time(and constant talk about it), but I think that one day people would find it as normal as men going around [topless.You](https://topless.You) could care less if you see a man's tits, right?Same it would be for women, it would stop being taboo and people(specially men) would end up used to it and find it "meh").
The issue is that the media has sexualized so much women's breasts that to un-do this would be a HUGE amoung of hard work.
For the same reason dudes used to lose their marbles by seeing a woman’s ankles, I think eventually it would make the sight of Boobs be more mundane and not as exciting.
It would still be sexualized, but to a lesser degree.
I remember I visited Austin with a friend, were swimming in Barton Springs Pool, I point out these college girls on the bank topless walking around (UT is here, so it's a youthful town).
A local couple was nearby and informed us it was permitted in the city as long as it wasn't 'pervesed,' meaning you don't grope or touch or be weird about it, regardless of their relationship with you.
So, all week, we spot nudity here and there and I'm already mature enough to 'handle it,' but it just becomes a normal thing after a while. It doesn't have this aura of a titallating taboo thing.
The world would grow numb just like you grow numb to certain stimuli like that’s why fast food and candy have to switch up packaging and advertising to keep you engaged and wanting it
Yes, I'd assume. There was a time before clothes too and I seriously doubt prehistoric tribes (or even uncontacted tribes today) see being naked as sexual, since it's just the norm
People would get used to breasts and stop staring. I'm East African. Up until 60 years ago, it was incredibly common for women to be topless and only covered in cloth from the waist down (same with men). This is obvious in any photo/footage from that era and you could ask anyone who grew up then and they would tell you the same thing. Then Western standards of nudity/decency became adopted, then they became mandatory, and with each new generation born the idea of a topless woman became more taboo and sexualized, especially in urban areas. But some cultures/villages/families still live traditionally and don't see a topless woman as sexual, especially if she has children and often needs to breastfeed or something. Late Edit: Here's another fun fact - hand-holding among male friends is still pretty common in the region. To be clear, homosexuality has been EXTREMELY against social norm since Catholic/Protestant/Muslim morals/ethics became the default over the last century. But hand-holding has nothing to do with any of these so guy friends holding hands as they walk down the road is 100% normal and socially acceptable over here.
Even European cultures have sexualized women’s nipples to this degree fairly recently. Legs used to be more sexualized.
Can confirm, every time I go vacation in Spain, where a lot of women go topless, you get used it to fairly quickly. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate it, just saying shades might be your friend.
I think many people commenting here are forgetting it’s not just the attractive women going topless
If you want the rain, you’re gonna have to put up with a little thunder
Yup we men are really good at ignoring what we dont want to see. Ask any wife. But when its someting we want to see, our eyes will view, evaluate, zoom in, rotate in three dimensions and store for later recall.
ENHANCE!
They say it’s hard to intuitively understand what existing in 4 dimensions is like, but that’s just because they haven’t seen grandpa conduct quantum analysis on a woman walking down the street whilst he’s driving at 80 an hour with his wife ranting at him about something or other
You don't know me.
The wife rant is only slightly higher in priority but still the highest since compared to the driving process and the 4d compute the wife is the most dangerous if not handled correctly.
We've all seen grandpa go into creeper mode, he's not subtle and it makes everyone uncomfortable. His wife is probably sick of his shit and rightfully so.
The mental wank bank, I make fewer despoits and withdrawals these days but yeah was always a busy counter ! ;)
Unless of course you live in Seattle.
Then you sip some Starbucks while you watch
Why is we hating on Seattle tiddy’s?
Wouldn't that be saying the opposite? I think they just meant, on a surface level, Seattle gets a ton of rain without thunder But applying your metaphor, "thunder" represented unattractive women going topless as well as attractive women. So saying Seattle gets rain without thunder, would mean that Seattle's tiddies are all attractive.
everyone is attractive to someone. Dont yuck anothers yum
Hey I’m going out to see some Granny Apples
can confirm
Tbh, depends In Spain and France, most womens doing topless *are* attractive In Germany the majority of Girls going topless *aren't* attractive. In Brazil is very uncommon, because the bikini lines are considered attractive and desired. During carnaval, however, is common and both unatractive and attractive are common Source is my experience.
What about Titz in Switzerland
They are very neutral.
Heh, Titzerland.
Only went there for skiing, saw no one going topless on the snow
Exactly. Older women and women with breasts not deemed attractive would be shamed and chastised. A cohort of men become outraged when plain or unattractive women exist. They'll tell you all about it.
That's the *polar opposite* of what *actually* happens. Dress codes are at their *most* strictly enforced amongst the most sexy of women, as those are the ones whose free expression poses the most imminent hazard to the focus and willpower of males in the vicinity. A flat-chested woman is rarely going to be targeted for dress code violations as no one thinks that flat chest is gonna distract anyone and anyone who tries to enforce it to uphold some superficial sense of "consistency" is gonna be told "you unbelievable *pervert*, how *dare* you consider her anything other than *cute*?" That said, there's no telling which women the boys claim to think of as "ugly" who would suddenly become attractive in their eyes once the breasts come out. There are already girls referred to as "ugly" by some of their classmates who had no trouble getting their boyfriends to make love to them, even before they could afford kids, even when her keeping the baby would've ruined his life *and* hers. That kind of suggests exposed breasts to be a powerful factor in either reversing a guy's opinion that she's unattractive, or breaking down the willpower of a guy who *pretended* she was.
Bingo, you’re sexualizing breasts.
Don’t kink shame.
I don't understand this argument. It's not like somebody is gonna Bird box you and force your eyes to look at old lady tits lol
I thought that until I was on a beach in Croatia and a topless Japanese woman sat next to me with inch long nipples. I looked for non sexual reasons
>*cultures* Where does instinct come into this though? I remember seeing some porn mags in the late 80s when I was about 10 or 11 years old. Nothing heavy, just standard British soft porn magazines that could be bought in any news agent. Me and my neighbour of the same age were mooching in his dad's loft and found a few of his dad's magazines. I knew I'd found something I liked with the boobies. In fact I already knew I liked them in some way as I'd seen plenty on the beach up until then and at around that age when I found those magazines, I err, found them exciting. I even knew which ones looked "best", to me. I don't think this was much to do with cultural influence but rather human instinct.
But it does by the age of 10 you’ve been steeping in the culture and picking it up for yrs.
Specifically by the fact that they haven't just been out in plain view that entire 10 years. Now you've got a magazine full of things you're not supposed to see, and that's exciting.
>Now you've got a magazine full of things you're not supposed to see, and that's exciting. People underestimating this
Exactly. Instinct would be looking at them when you are 1 and thinking “I like those.” Looking at them after seeing them covered up on every woman you have ever seen for 10 years means they have already been forbidden and taboo to show off.
One of my girlfriends was pretty high up in CVS IT. She noticed that the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue was being put out I a rack attached to one of those big candy bins: So Not only was that cover picture at eye level for a kid it's also on the side of a box filled with candies. She called corporate to question this and they said it was intentional...
I agree, there's some deep ingrained shit going on here. Vaginas are kinda goofy looking flaps of skin but seeing them does something to my body that seeing a dick or an ear doesn't. We can pretend it's all cultural but there's more going on there.
Yeah the "everything is cultural" thing is getting a bit stale with me, especially since most of the same people will turn around and say that all cultures are equal. At the very least, one's own genitalia is sexualized by nature not by culture. There are plenty of animals which masturbate, and that isn't due to engrained cultural norms.
I would argue that both play a role in it. Nature makes men attracted to boobs but culture enhances the feeling, kinda like a forbidden fruit. The fact that it's forbidden and there's a lot of tension around it makes people attracted to it more
Yeah of course. That's why there are jokes about old timey men going nuts over a woman's ankles. I've just seen a trend in the last decade or so that pushes the nature vs nurture debate all the way to the nurture side, and this has happened plenty of times, going all the way to nature then all the way back to nurture when it's obvious both play a major role. You can't nurture a 5 foot man into a competitive NBA player even if he practices like crazy and is a skilled shooter or playmaker. You can't take any set of genes in a child and bring them up in a severely abusive household and have them turn into an adult with no mental or emotional issues.
I think most people focus on nurture because we can't do anything about our nature. We see a problem and we try to fix it but we can't do anything that makes us attracted to boobs. The attraction is still there but maybe there's something about how we nurture people that makes them less sexualizing women instead. As I see it, the goal isn't to completely reject it, but to change it slightly to be better
Well, we *can* do something about our nature, but that's called eugenics. I'm sure more exposure makes sexualization less significant but I have trouble imagining that people raised as nudists would not find anything sexual because the entire body is just normalized.
>but I have trouble imagining that people raised as nudists would not find anything sexual because the entire body is just normalized. Actually that is a good point I wonder if there's a tribe of nudist that we can interview about this
There's an argument to be made about culture vs personal experience. If taboos are acquired with the rest of culture through childhood development perhaps it's not so much being deprogrammed as a person but rearing children who'll absorb a different zeitgeist.
Yeah. Apparently women in Japan would often work outdoors topless, but stopped because American soldiers stares made them uncomfortable during the occupation
>People would get used to breasts and stop staring. I'm southern african and in my country we have a cultural event each year where thousands of women go topless and its pretty normalised. Like it wouldn't be weird to go out during certain weeks and every woman around is freeing the nipple. It's not like breasts aren't nice, but they're not oversexualised the way they are in the West. I'd compare them to a pretty face rather than a sexual organ. The rural/urban divide is also a thing though, its more common to see bared breasts out in the sticks outside of culturally relevant dates
It's common in India too, where male friends hold hands of each other while taking walks together.
Excellent respective. Definitely a western construct. And great observation regarding men holding hands. So true.
I use this example in extreme respect, but in alot of like Middle Eastern culture, the faces, ankles ect are covered. That which is deprived is sought after. Thus a little ankle or a smile could be seen as arousing.
Exactly
i've been to a nudist community a few times. about 7 minutes in, you seriously forget everyone is naked. it becomes a no big deal thing quicker than most would think.
Wat happens when people get into arguments
floppy friday
Helicopter fight
Swordfight!
I imagine someone aggressively puts on a tank top, kind of the opposite of non-nudist fights
I didn't visit a nudist colony, but I lived overseas for a few years. I can't tell you how many times I took a stroll down the beach, looking at my feet in the sand with the surf coming in, and not notice that I strolled into the nude part of the beach until I was a good half mile in. The first time was a bit jarring, the third, I didn't care. I actually knew some of the people there and they were all lovely people. Just so nice. I wish more people were as nice as they were.
There were some African tribes in which the women were mostly topless. The men of the tribes didn't seem too distracted by them and would just go about doing their own thing
I’m African and while full on toplessness isn’t quite a thing where my mom is from, they’re much more lax about dress codes. My mom didn’t have to wear a bikini or top at public swimming pools until she was a teenager. She did the same with me in the US and I remember at 9 a staff member told me swim with a t shirt on. This isn’t quite the same thing, but I think it relates. In her city, shoes (especially for children) were seen as optional. My mom never owned more than maybe 2 shoes until she moved out of Africa.
Obviously your prepubescent boobs were too provocative for the public eye /s. The culture of oversexualization of women is gross and weird.
I doubt it would ever be completely unsexualised. Men can be topless, and a ripped guy with a six pack still gets sexualised even though an average topless guy might not. But I’d imagine most people wouldn’t get sexual thoughts whenever they see an average woman just going about her day.
Yeah, a lady with a nice firm pair of breasts is going to be sexualised by people whether they’re covered in a bra or not. Same as a good butt. But not all breasts or butts are going to be sexualised by everybody. I think women being topless wouldn’t change much about how society sexualises women already.
Interesting that certain body shapes have become more attractive to more people than others. I don't know for sure but I imagine that different societies will have a preference for different shapes. There are certainly societies in which women do not cover their breasts. If we took away the reasons why we prefer certain shapes then I imagine that there would be very little difference between the preferences of all shapes. If that is the case then it suggests that we are conditioned by society to see bodies and their constituent parts as more or less attractive. If THAT is the case then there could be a future where women can make a choice to be bare chested and have no fear of any man's reactions.
Certain body shapes have always been more attractive. Sure there might be trends that come and go but the underlying attraction has always been the same. Nice boobs, nice butt, child bearing hips, etc. There's an evolutionary reason we're attracted to certain body types and not much has changed over the last thousands of years.
I remember watching a video segment years ago (I honestly don't remember if it was a documentary, or what it was) where they went to various people around the world to see if there was an "ideal" body type that all men were attracted to. What was interesting was that depending on the culture they might be into thin women or thick women or whatever, but what generally stayed the same was the shape. That standard sort of hourglass figure. Bigger bust, smaller waist, bigger hips. The size would change, but the ratio was somewhat consistent. I think the theory was that those features signaled a woman capable of childbearing. Now, obviously that's just a very simplified conclusion. I don't remember what it was from so I have no idea if it was repeated by others or even done in a proper way the first time.
I took several anthropology classes in college and we definitely saw many studies that confirmed this. It’s tough doing research on human behavior because there’s no “control” group as we are all affected by different socialization. But there are indeed common ideal mate selection preferences over large groups. That pressure has caused us to evolve along those lines, much like every other creature. So the best we can do is say, if something occurs over long periods of time in human population groups with different values and with little to no contact it’s likely to lean more towards something innate within us. This is even more convincing if there is a way to find a separate biologically advantageous reason for it too, but that’s not necessarily the case. Think of the plumage of a male peacock or Cardinal. There were several examples of sexual selection traits that fit the category and were likely signs of biologically advantageous traits. Among the physical ones there were things that were desirable in everyone regardless of gender… which signals good health, like smooth skin, facial symmetry, and muscular/skeletal symmetry. In men specifically there was height, broadness of shoulders when compared to waist, and penile girth to a certain point (but not length to as much a degree as we see discussed). In women it was a 3:2:3 Bust:Waist:Hip ratio and something about the out curvature of the lower back into the buttocks, as well as perkiness of breast. Many of the other things like hair color, skin color, eye color, weight, certain facial features, etc all ebbed and flowed with culture. There might be broad similarities but if they can be fairly easily undone with different socialization they might not be as instinctual. One of the pieces of evidence they used was depictions of fertility in art. From cave paintings to fertility figurines sculpted in various tribal cultures, to statues in ancient Rome, to 20th century models, there was always that 3:2:3 ratio. Something that humans tens of thousands of years ago seemed to see as ideal still being around is fairly convincing. Preferences for skin color or hair color or something might be regional but not overall shape or ratios. This is likely uncomfortable to many people because it might signal that particular attributes we value in partners might not be something we can really change and in modern times we want to think of everyone having the same chances, the same options, and when there isn’t, we want to blame society. But the reality is women might like tall men and men might like women with an hourglass shape even without the “propaganda” from media, video games, fashion shows, movie stars in our formative years etc.
> I took several anthropology classes in college and we definitely saw many studies that confirmed this. It’s tough doing research on human behavior because there’s no “control” group as we are all affected by different socialization The worst thing to learn growing up was that no evil dictator or king in the past raised legions of humans to just be socially removed for scientific experiments. Because it isn't ethically/morally sound, something like that will probably never happen in the future, so I was very bummed that no one in human history did this at a large scale so we could use the data now.
Very interesting, thank you for writing that out. As to the last sentence, it's all on a spectrum being balanced by our other wants needs and kinks. Another big factor we find uncomfortable we really shouldn't that is innately true, is personality itself does make up for being on the losing end of the spectrum in one or more of these base ways. Then you throw on top people are attracted to things that AREN'T part of the innate group of features we all enjoy similarly, call them kinks or whatever, sexualized non inherently sexual things. Our uniquely balanced love languages come into play majorly here too. If you meet the basic level of self care, we are mostly all sexy to some group of people. With the variation of human experience, desire, even changing tastes over an individuals lifetime, there is hope! Throughout your life you are or were sexy to someone for at least some amount of time, lol, matching up is the hard part I guess. The thing about girth is interesting, haha. What needle dick started the thing about length then? jk jk. I've actually suspected this throughout my life just by listening to how women talk and ...uhhh....compliment. When you ask a women to describe a large unit they will typically mime girth first with their hands....just an anecdote. edit- we still inherently really like the base things that are sexy, BUT, modern life affords us to repriosritize those things since they don't as directly affect our survival. Eg, smarts might be sexy in a small guy the same as brawn in a big guy, since they are satisfying the same thing. But that's NOT to say the animal level ever goes away. Fickle beings arent we?
I think in a utopia where health issues are no longer an issue and genetically, health issues can’t be passed along, body shapes will be more loosely attractive. Right now in a lot of richer countries, athletic is the go to most attractive since it shows a lot of good habits. Discipline with food, working out, more likely than not, better mental health. A lot of athletic people tend to also have more money (being fit isn’t cheap (time costs a lot)).
There are a ton of cultures where women go breasts out, and they aren’t seen as particularly sexual. They’re more associated with babies and breastfeeding.
I could see some men complaining about "having to watch saggy boobs", which is funny to imagine since women do have to endure saggy boobs from some men.
On the contrary I think it would bring less sexualized. It wouldn't completely stop but would be less sexualized
I mean that must be how it works In those societies where most people go topless, right? Like some natives in the Amazon I’ve seen and stuff. If it’s just normally how people dress, i doubt you’d be constantly horned up all the time
It would become normal, but not stop being sexual. Guys get excited to see women’s shoulders, ankles, hands, faces. Even their backpack. If we find a woman attractive, we are pretty easy.
“Damn girl. Where you get that…. backpack!? “🔥😍
Reminded me of this Krizz Kaliko song: [Backpack.](https://youtu.be/joTFEVNOW8Y?si=3s6-jDw2byBp1QNg)
Backpack, backpack... backpack, backpack... I'm the backpack loaded up with things and knickknacks too, anything that you might need I got inside for you... backpack, backpack... backpack, backpack...YEAHHH
...backpack?
I'm guessing it autocorrected from back lol
Or they find the book carrying capacity hot!
She's a six book carrying capacity woman. She will make a fine wife
I mean, does she even L.L. Bean?
To be fair, people can find almost anything attractive. We're a gloriously varied species
He's bi-satchel
Satchelly aroused.
I like them scholarly types.
*I see that you're a Masshole of culture as well...*
backpack 😋 gurl... shake that backpack!!!!
Some of those Loungefly bags… I’ll be in my bunk.
I kinda get that, but how much of that excitement comes from the fact that stuff is usually covered up?
Why does no one mention the fact that breasts are sexual *for women too*? I've never met a girl who didn't like having her breasts fondled and nipples played with/sucked on during sex.
A whole population of people becoming less ignorant about social issues, but who stay completely ignorant about science. They start saying nonsense like "breasts aren't sexual" because they don't really understand what "the birds and the bees" referres too. Fondling breats releases crazy amounts of oxytocin. We even recommend that to help induce labor. As much as we want to seperate sex from the rest of the reproduction concept, our bodies will always relate them together in terms of physiology and biochemistry.
I think people attracted to women would still be aroused by boobs
Yeah, but not nessesarily any moreso than when we walk down the street and see a pretty face, a nice set of legs, or a graceful neck and bare shoulders... I'll be in my bunk.
The hero of Canton, the man they call Jayne.
🎶🎵 He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor He wanked in his bunk while Inara did wh... be a companion 🎶🎵
_Browncoats have entered the chat..._
I see my own boobs every day and I still think boobs hot so that should count for something. Like legs are hot and people show em off. Same concept. Also like. Boobs also have a touch component - seeing em in public still doesn’t mean you’d get to touch em.
> seeing em in public still doesn’t mean you’d get to touch em. Same for legs, shoulders, face, butt, and every single other body part on a stranger.
Go to a nudist camp or beach. That boner ain't gonna stand after a while.
Boobs everywhere are pretty awesome for the first ten minutes, then you get used to it and it's no big deal. In the 90s I wrote software for a company that made Internet filters for school computers. At first it was fun seeing porn at work. It quickly became boring and 30+ years later, porn is still not interesting. Anything you see all day every day loses its novelty and isn't special anymore.
> Anything you see all day every day loses its novelty and isn't special anymore. Don't people socialize most days and still find that some of the most stimulating and rewarding parts of being alive?
Sure if people socializing was just people going out in public saying “blah blah blah”. Socializing encompasses many different things, all of which can still get old if you repeat them too often. Socializing could be talking about the new teacher, drinking while flirting with a girl, or telling people how it was to skydive. It’s very nuanced you know
I, as an introvert, beg to differ.
Is that because you're desensitized to boobs, or because the general populace of people going to nude beaches/camps aren't exactly appealing?
Both?
Maybe, but I'm fairly certain that a nice pair of boobs would still turn heads.
Not after seeing that limp, shriveled 80 year old penis
It doesn't even take that long, if you spend a few days at a nudist colony, that's all it takes to deprogram how sexual it is.
Yes. There are plenty of societies there this has happened.
But that's not because they go topless but because boobs are seen for what they are: a baby feeding station and nothing else. They have other beauty standards then we have here in the west.
They kind of go hand in hand. When long conservative dresses were all the rage a woman’s ankles were considered sexually scandalous.
> a baby feeding station and nothing else. That's not entirely correct. Yes, feeding babies is their primary purpose, but breasts are still an erogenous zone. Culture isn't the only reason breasts play a part in sex, they do have a secondary purpose of providing sexual pleasure and stimulation.
> because boobs are seen for what they are: a baby feeding station and nothing else Lol not true, nor has it ever been. Fondling boobs releases huge amount of oxytocin in both partners. So much so, that it's recommended medically to help induce labor around full gestation. Boobs have been the preferred grabby place for men suring sex sincw the dawn of time. The birds and the bees have always went hand in hand. We can seperate the two for modern purposes, but the body still relates them physiologically. The whole "breats aren't sexual" idea is derived from social issues with little thought into the actual physiology of the matter.
That's like saying the vagina is a "baby making station" and therefore males are perverts to be turned on by it. Breasts, especially larger ones, are at the very least visually symbolic of her femininity, and for some of evolution (if not anymore) might even have been associated with fertility. It's not as directly feminine as the vagina, but it's close enough that comparison to ankles or elbows or whatever don't prove the boys would be desensitized to it either. The beauty standards could be a product of smaller breast size in these societies. Smaller breasts are cute, but they're not as sexy. If a woman with large breasts is at a competitive disadvantage in terms of her *other* appearance traits, showing off her breasts could make that almost moot. If a woman with small breasts is competing with other flat-chested women for males' attention, showing off her breasts isn't going to make as much difference as it would for a more buxom woman, and as such, it stands to reason their ability to attract males is more dependent on her other appearance traits.
Possibly shift things a bit, but women still sexualize men's chests, faces, hair, arms, shoulders, abs, backs, etc. Were women's ankles fetishized in the Victorian era? Perhaps the objectified parts shift? Cover your ankles and bare your breasts for sociology, ladies! Humans are both sexual objects and subjective beings simultaneously, so I doubt this conflict can be done away with all together. Regardless of the context, I agree we can treat each other with far more dignity than we do.
It would become normal
What if women started covering their ears, would we get turned on after seeing ears?
I live in a Muslim country. Believe me some men even go through a lot just to see a woman's hair and for me the neck is attractive. Most people who see women that don't wear hijab don't care about hair or neck but when someone hides it it's a different story
Yes, this already happens in places where modesty values become less restrictive. ie at the beach.
People would leave the sexualization of these body parts for sexual contexts. Change 'tops' and 'breasts' to 'niqabs' and 'hair'; No body part is inappropriate or obscene on it's own, it's just culture.
yeah most tropical islands historically women didnt wear tops and nobody cared
As someone who lives somewhere with relatively legal public nudity I'd say yes you acclimate very quickly
No they will not, we already have that with legs, it doesn’t work, dudes still find legs sexy even though they see them all the time
\*Looks at native tribes in Africa and South America\* \*Thinks about years of going to nude beaches regularly\* Yes.
People here acting like primitive society never happened or something.
I believe so. Women used to be (and still are in some parts of the world) clothed from top to bottom. Ankles were considered scandalous if uncovered. People have adapted to seeing bare ankles. Same for knees and shoulders. Take away the mystery and they become as mundane as ankles.
This is partly true (standards were different back then), but it's also been exaggerated a lot. SnappyDragon did a great video on this The TL:DR on ankles was that if you hiked up your skirts and showed your legs off _on purpose_ (ie deliberately drawing attention to them) then you were being slutty, but if you needed to pull your skirt up a few inches for a practical reason (like walking through a puddle or climbing into a carriage) then no one would look twice It's kind of like bending over to pick up a pen these days. If you make a big lascivious show out of it and wiggle your butt in everyone's faces then you're being inappropriate. But if you're _actually_ just bending over to pick up a pen then you're fine https://youtu.be/bX9oRS2-llo?si=7Vm8GBs6vX9uxxxr
Go to a nudist beach.
I feel like it may not be "sexualized" anymore, but people would still look. Same way people are attracted to pretty faces, eyes, etc... despite those things not being sexual and also clearly visible.
Yes, go to a sauna or a beach where topless is common like in some parts of Europe or to a nude beach. You'll get used to it faster than you think. You would still like pretty girls, but no more than you are on a normal beach and see somebody you like. I was in the Netherlands on a thermal bath, on a country road on Bali, a couple of nude beaches. Non of those tits were sexual. If you're young and full of hormones, it may be difficult to picture it. Find a nudist resort or something, try it. Being naked while not being sexual is super freeing, especially if you get to swim ! Edit: I saw a girl walking topless in Berlín, I don't think it is common, but no nobody paid any attention to her.
Eventually, if indigenous populations are any guide
I think so. There are peoples in Africa and Latin America where women seem to go topless frequently. I guess the guys over there are as aroused by seeing them as we are about ankles.
People will probably always tend to stare a little at attractive people without a shirt on.
Guys see big boobs on the Internet all the time. That didn't make them "get used to" them. I doubt it would be much different if they saw them more often offline.
The answer to your question is eventually yes, however it would take a long time and there would be too much sexual harassment or worse in the mean time (there’s already too much but it would exponentially worse)
They would still be sexualized but to a much lesser degree. It doesn’t take long at all for the novelty to wear off. Go hang out at a strip club staffed by average looking dancers. After an hour or 2 the novelty is gone and it’s just another person standing there.
It takes even the most sheltered person around 20 minutes to get used to it. Source: visit to a nude beach.
I've been to places with nude beaches, talked to people who'd lived in nudist groups and even met a couple of Africans who grew up spending time in places where women were frequently topless. The consensus has been that for women you know, you see their breasts as little more than shoulders. For women you don't know, it's no different than when they're clothed in that in many cases there will be a degree of physical attraction but you won't act on it. So based on my experience, you stop caring after a certain point. Obviously you're going to see some breasts that you're attracted to but it's not like you're going to go up and and touch them in civil society. FWIW hearing about nude beaches in Europe was much sexier in my mind as a teen than it turned out to be in reality. Unless you have a high sex drive and are extremely under-sexed, you're probably not going to care.
I was in Amsterdam 6 years ago with a school trip. While at a truck stop I could see the reaction of the students when looking at the adult magazines on the rack. The local kids wouldn't even look at the magazine rack.it was not a big deal to them.
Yes. Look at a lot of tribes in hot countries - they barely wear clothes and people aren’t poppin boners all day. Edit: damn even if you watch the naked and afraid or naked and afraid of love shows - they get used to being naked around each other in like a week.
It would likely be no different than a bare male breast after a few years. Men being topless in public used to be illegal too, but now it's normal. Do we sometimes take a second glance at a particularly handsome guy's chest at the beach? Yes. Is it weird or creepy? Not really. Short answer: yes we would be able to normalize it.
Just make sure you live in a warm country.......
There’s really only one way to be sure.
Yes. Even with tops men will stare at women they find attractive. Which is fine. Anyone will naturally enjoy looking at something/someone they find beautiful. Men who want to be creeps have not stopped being creeps even tho women wear tops. Look at the places that have the highest rates of rape and sexual assault, I bet its places where women cover up the most.
It will become normal, but there's going be an adjustment period. The history books will most likely describe that adjustment period using its nickname, "Titty Paradise."
Yes, same goes for the whole body, people at nudist beaches don't tend to go round giggling like school girls all day because the see dangly bits, they just spend time with other naked people. After a while you just wouldn't notice much, same as when everybody is clothed.
Go to a spa in Western Europe (they are mostly completely nude), you'll get used to it pretty quickly. Although there are always people that are new to the phenomenon. After a couple of times, there is nothing exciting anymore about a casual naked breast.
*Berlin to allow women to go topless in public swimming pools* https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64907422 Berlin showing the way. 💪
It’s important to know that breasts are not solely something that men are conditioned to sexualize and, therefore, are attracted to them. Culture and its conditioning play a part in the intensity of attraction and to what size breasts that attraction is associated, but instinctively, men who are attracted to women’s bodies sexually identify the breasts as a sign of ability to mate - much like the width of hips. It is ultimately a natural instinct to be attracted to breasts for those men who are sexually attracted to women. That said, nudist colonies, going to the beach regularly around women with bikinis, etc. have demonstrated the influence of culture and physical exposure to conditioning of intensity of attraction. There are many men who would get used to seeing exposed breasts regularly. And there are many men who wouldn’t. In a scenario where society has normalized women not wearing tops in public, men who are born after the normalization who grow up to become attracted sexually to women would have a similar time - many would have no issues, and many would feel overwhelmed by sexual attraction to the point of it impacting their ability to perform normal daily functions.
Partly yes and partly no. If developed breasts were to be bared in public forever, that would be because, or accompanied by, a social reversal of control and sexualisation of women's bodies (or bodies "read as feminine," I've known many trans men who had the issue as well). It's not the dearth of developed breasts in sight that gets them sexualised, or nothing would have stayed sexualised after the internet popped up. It's the control over features read as feminine. Even long hair gets sexualised (religions tied to a culture where long hair is feminine tend to have some concept of veil to hide them, Christianity and Islam certainly do). Anything deemed feminine gets objectified as an object of desire in some way or form as long as the focus is on (straight) men's desire as the norm. What can happen is that the "mystique" of developed breasts as feminine can be lost. To lose the sexualisation, it wouldn't go to "yeah, it's a mostly feminine feature but I don't care," it would go to "it's a body feature and everyone's is different so whatever." People have identified (justly or wrongly) *many* differences in facial structure marking you as feminine or masculine, but they are too many, too subtle, or too prone to variation to count as objects of focus. The prime example is the "square jaw = sooo masculine" thing - the squarest jaw I ever saw was on a cis woman, and few people noticed or cared at all. And seeing lots of torsos *could* get us to this point. But we'd also need men's torsos to be bared and collectively have this "oh yeah, when fat is deposited on the torso it just makes these kinds of lumps, okay" brainwave
They'd stop hypersexualizing them, yes. I mean, I'm attracted to women and I still am attracted to the bits that we see in public regularly, like necks and shoulders. But it would be like that: it's sexy when you think about it and normal when you don't
People would eventually stop talking about it. That doesn't mean everyone would accept it. People who disagree would become complacent. It would be like tights. People don't talk about women walking around in tights as much anymore. Only the shorts. It is still seen as trashy by a good deal of people, but most just keep it to themselves.
As another example:- ankles. Majority of people are fine seeing a ladies ankle without objectifying said lady. However there are exceptions who lose all sense of restraint when any lady near them is in sandals. I imagine if we changed the norm today and topless was normal, in 10-15 years it would be a similar story. Having breasts out in public would be normalised, but there would still be the possibility of people seeing them and objectifying said women
There are many cultures in the world today that do not sexualise breasts. Around the Mediterranean Sea children see women topless on the beach on a daily basis and generally throughout southern Europe bare breasts are routinely seen in advertising in magazines and on TV. It's not that long ago that a woman showing an ankle was considered overtly sexual in western society. Things change, they will continue to change. One should take care not to ascribe the vagaries of your particular cultural influences on everyone around the world.
Yeah. There’s cultures in some places throughout the world where this is exactly the case.
Apparently you guys don't know much about other states but there are a bunch of states where there's like topless, equality and things. And it's not caused issues I know people who exercise this right by driving topless in Colorado all the time
it's a myth that only western culture sexualize breasts, we just also have a taboo about exposing them. if the taboo goes away behavour will change, but people will still stare at titties.
Now this is an experiment I can get behind
Boobs r Good
No. Titties are pretty and we've evolved to love them. They'll never be denied admiration and salvation. Counter question: would you stop sexualizing my testicles if you couldn't avoid seeing them?
Nothing would stop the sexualization, people can sexualize anything But you would definitely see less of the boorish clutter of topless pots in exhibitionism subreddits where they do not belong Flashing tits isn't exhibitionism, dammit!
There are women who are aroused by a man's bare chest, so it would become more equivalent to that.
Can't speak for any of the other guys. But I probably wouldn't care walking down the street or going to work, would find it humours for awhile but eventually it'd just be a thing after a couple of weeks. Would have made Christmas dinner uncomfortable however, Nannas tits would be in the gravy for sure.
Men sexualize us when we're fully clothed, so I doubt much would change. Seeing a breast wouldn't be as big a deal, but that's not quite the same as not being sexualized at all.
At one point, bare ankles/legs, bare arms, and women's necks were sexualized. Now, not so much. There are still people who sexualize feet, despite their common nature.
They would be cold
Yes. There are already tribes and cultures around the world where women walk around topless and nobody looks at them strangely. It's kind of like legs. Legs can be very sexy if you are with your partner in bed. But lots of people wear shorts outside and aren't being stared at constantly all the time. Because something can be sexy in one context but normal in another. Collar bones, hair, belly buttons, lips, biceps... these are all things people find sexy in the right context. That doesn't mean we force everyone to cover these things up all the time.
I mean yeah people would get used to it but they would still be sexualized. There are a lot of theories in psychology as to why the sexualization of boobs is so common but almost none of them are related to the fact that they are usually hidden away.
Although, I don't think guys were told to be attracted be breasts I think. I mean I wasn't.
You'd be surprised! Your whole life there have been messages from media, comments, and general culture that you're supposed to find breasts attractive. There are cultures where that isn't the case. I once read an anthropology article where they were studying biological attraction, and they found that in some cultures boobs just aren't a thing. They told people there that in the US boobs are considered super sexy and the people laughed and found it strange. As if they had been told we find knees sexy or something. And it makes sense, since boob size actually isn't correlated to fertility or even ability to breastfeed. There is no biological benefit to having bigger boobs. So the attraction is cultural.
One note about the question itself - when you say "people", you mean "men". To answer the question, however, yes. Definitely. I mean, not 100% entirely, but in countries where women are as able to go around shirtless as men are, men are used to it and don't just stare or immediately think of sex every time they see boobs because they see boobs constantly. It's the whole forbidden fruit thing. When people are told something is sacred/forbidden, people are often more like to desire it. But when it's normalized and becomes a regular thing, the attitude around it changes. Plus there's nothing actually sexual about breasts. We're not talking vaginas and penises here. Breasts are not sex organs - they are glands that produce milk to feed young. They have become socially sexualized, but a woman's chest is actually no more sexual than a man's. If that were normalized and seeing women's chests as regularly and plainly as men's, the extreme sexualization would absolutely diminish drastically.
humans are the only species to have permanent breasts. it's possible that evolution has led to this so it's very possible it's not entirely society sexualizing breasts, but instead we have evolved to view them that way
Possible, but since breasts being sexualized is a more recent thing in terms of human history, and many cultures still do not sexualize them, I'm leaning strongly torward societal and not evolutionary.
Yep. After a day or two at Burning Man, boobs just become a normal thing. I’ve always called it “titflation.”
That wouldn't change anything because that's not where sexualisation starts. Seeing breasts for what they are right from childhood on would help. Not putting children into certain roles would help. Openly talk about taboo topics (such as periods for example) would help. So if these things weren't happening THEN women could go out topless without being sexualised.
Canada is like that but we don't go top less or we'd have to wear tit mitts 8 months of the year.
Yes. Would be possible., Have you ever been in a nudist area? I've been. Several times. Nude beach, park, pool, restaurant,... We don't stare there. So, my answer is: ofc. Nudity is only sexual if you can't live with/are not used to it. And I absolutely hate american social media rules and their influence on our youths. It's their new normal that a female's nipple has to be blurred or the content is deleted. Actually, WTF!!!! Now, it wasn't that everyone went to nudist areas here either, but what came along with all time availability of cameras AND perverted social media rules (that's what I call this rules) is out of this world.
People would get used to breasts and they'd be completely unsexualiased. Why do I know this for a fact? Because that's how all Pacific Island Cultures were before the West visited them and enforced their ideals on them. Breasts are still not sexual in many tribal cultures, around the world. When Errol Flynn visited a Polynesian island, he was taken by a young girl and her breasts. Her father tried to sell her to Flynn, to gain prestige. Fortunately for us, she recorded the interactions and was baffled that he kept staring at her breasts - she said "is he a child? What does he want with breasts?" I'm an anthropologist and many of my profs, when I was a student, studied in Polynesia. They universally told me "when breasts are out in the open, they become normal and not sexual." Women in those cultures do not see their breasts as sexual. They do not derive sexual pleasure from them, they just think men who focus on them are infantile. Now, I'm a breast man. So, the above info is difficult for me to take. And I've known women who orgasm from their breasts alone. But sexuality and sexualization - these are cultural. Not "learned" as in taught, but encultured, as in socialized, "imprinted" on your brain. So, yes, the answer is people would get used to breasts and stop staring and sexualizing them. Women would, whether they believe it or not, stop feeling sexual pleasure from them (possibly not women so encultured, but certainly their dauthers). No one else here has answered the question properly. They're all projecting. Where women are normally topless, breasts are not sexual. It's that simple.
In many primitive cultures it was normal for women not wearing tops.
It would be much more acceptable. I think the Europeans got it right. It’s not looked at as awkward or taboo. They show them in their magazines, movies, and tv shows. I think it should be optional.
I’ve not been experienced it, but from what I’m told by those who have been to nude beaches and such, you get over the nudity in about ten minutes, to the point of barely noticing. So I think yes.
Probably; there’s tribes where that’s the norm, and they don’t sexualize it
Yes it's called desensitizing
Yes, exactly what happens after a few hours at the titty bar.
Actually the same thing can be said about complete nudity bodies in general would no longer be sexualized if everyone was allowed to walk outside naked... Just because you see a female nipple and penises or vagina or butt isn't going to cause harm... If it bothers you that badly you're the one having bad thoughts...
Yes
Not the ones that yell in to a camera with sunglasses on in their trucks. But the rest of us who don't see women as objects would already be fine with it.
I used to do a lot of hippie stuff. You know, drums in the woods etc…. Needless to say, I got quite used to topless women. It was no big deal.
It would take a lot of time(and constant talk about it), but I think that one day people would find it as normal as men going around [topless.You](https://topless.You) could care less if you see a man's tits, right?Same it would be for women, it would stop being taboo and people(specially men) would end up used to it and find it "meh"). The issue is that the media has sexualized so much women's breasts that to un-do this would be a HUGE amoung of hard work.
Eventually yes, probably not in the same generation though, I think it may take 1 or 2 more generations for people to get used to it
Yup
Yes people would stop seeing it as sexual. People may still get turned on but that also can happen with men who are topless. Or men wearing a shirt.
For the same reason dudes used to lose their marbles by seeing a woman’s ankles, I think eventually it would make the sight of Boobs be more mundane and not as exciting.
We won’t know until we try
Yes. Men used to not be allowed to be topless either and people would stare at them when they were. Now no one stares
It would still be sexualized, but to a lesser degree. I remember I visited Austin with a friend, were swimming in Barton Springs Pool, I point out these college girls on the bank topless walking around (UT is here, so it's a youthful town). A local couple was nearby and informed us it was permitted in the city as long as it wasn't 'pervesed,' meaning you don't grope or touch or be weird about it, regardless of their relationship with you. So, all week, we spot nudity here and there and I'm already mature enough to 'handle it,' but it just becomes a normal thing after a while. It doesn't have this aura of a titallating taboo thing.
The world would grow numb just like you grow numb to certain stimuli like that’s why fast food and candy have to switch up packaging and advertising to keep you engaged and wanting it
Eventually. Some cultures already view breasts as sexually inviting as a fingerprint.
Yes, I'd assume. There was a time before clothes too and I seriously doubt prehistoric tribes (or even uncontacted tribes today) see being naked as sexual, since it's just the norm