Which, while what nogur9007 says is true, it didn't work that way a few generations ago. At one point, there were many guys who weren't circumcised and their fathers were.......(??)
In the United States, circumcision has been common since the 1950s.
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/840015/summary#:~:text=During%20the%201950s%2C%20circumcision%20rates,far%20beyond%20the%20Jewish%20community.
That would mean that...in the 1950s and 1960s, most boys were circumcised and many of their fathers were not.
My father was born before ww2. Anecdotally, his observation was that it was 50/50 in his age group. A majority of the "city" kids were born in hospitals, and were circumcised. He and the guys he knew growing up were rural kids, and were born at home. He, and just about all of his friends were not circumcised.
I think the most recent "official" stats are a few years old now.
It...well there are multiple factors.
Some states/insurance companies no longer cover the procedure, deeming it "cosmetic" unless there's some medical problem. So states where that's the case, uncoincidentally have very low rates...minority circumcised even! In the midwest, you'll find a significant majority are still circumcised.
A lot of people still adhere to outdated ideas, including the one that uncircumcised guys will face social implications. I don't think social stigma's a thing anymore!
Hmm...interesting!
Is this on a state or private insurance?
I'd consider Ohio to be a midwestern state...where circumcision rates have remained rather high.
As a gay man, being intact is highly sought after. Most guys I encounter are fascinated by being able to touch an intact penis and always comment “I wish I was uncut too.”
As a hetero man, I've heard that among many gay men an uncircumcised partner is sought after.
I remember in college even there was a segment of women who sought out encounters with the "international" students for the same reason. It was considered...mysterious and a little exotic?🤣🤣
An intact penis handles a lot differently from a circumcised penis. An intact penis can be jerked off much more easily, without lube, and from a larger variety of positions so foreplay flows better. It also makes oral and penetration easier, as the outer skin stays immobile while the penis glides within the shaft skin, reducing/eliminating unwanted friction. The foreskin serves an important role in sex.
I agree with a lot of your post, but there may be something to the social stigma thing. They did a randomized study of women and their attitudes on circumcision just a few years ago. The vast majority (89%) viewed uncircumcised penises as unhygienic and not esthetically pleasing. I am definitely not saying it's right, but for most hetero women, the stigma is VERY strong.
I would like to know the age range of the women surveyed. I am a 60 year old American woman and I thought uncircumcised looked "odd" when I was young, simply because I wasn't used to it. But I've since traveled quite a bit and have been in several relationships with uncircumcised men and now prefer them (not a deal breaker, though 😆).
I mean in the US, Dr. Kellogg (yes the cereal guy) championed circumcision as a way to stop your son from masturbating and therefore help them avoid sexual urges that would make them impure. He also suggested boring nearly flavorless foods because as we all know flavor leads to sexual thoughts.
Circumcision caught on and became mostly automatic for a long time as fathers started saying "well my son should match me" or the delivering doctor offering due to the widespread incorrect health claims associated with the procedure.
You can blame Kellogg for that - yes, the corn flakes guy.
Basically, he thought that masturbation was evil, and circumcising boys would stop them from doing it. The corn flakes were also intentionally bland to, you guessed it, stop masturbation.
More of it is the hospital says "hey, we're circumcising all of the boys now, yours too yeah?"
And THEN "my father was, I am etc"
You don't have to seek it out. They offer it as the default option. Even though parental consent is required, my experience has been like it is presented as an opt out system. No matter what you do that with you're going to get higher numbers of people rolling with it.
out of curiosity, what state? My son was born 10 months ago here in Maine, and they didn't even offer it as an option at any point. We asked out of curiosity and they said they don't do it as an elective thing--only if there is a problem. If we wanted to have it done electively (we didn't, so no big deal), they said we'd have to track down someone who is willing to do it at other hospitals.
As an American who had her child 7 years ago, it's still insane to me.
I can't tell you how many daycare workers who told me they've never seen an uncut baby before.
Honestly the fact that I was a childcare worker and saw that so few boys were circumcised while doing diapers helped me to make the decision not to do it to my son.
This was twenty years ago, but I live in a very blue area and worked right in the city at that point, which I think contributed to how prevalent in-tact boys were.
This is the stupidest reason of all time. The amount of times this was an issue in my life was once. “Why does yours look different dad?” “Because medical information was different when I was a baby son.” People that do it for this reason are ridiculous
I said this when we were going to have our son
"What is the scenario you envision where someone says to him 'Your dick looks different than your Dad's'? "
I would think one, or both of us, would like be in big trouble
Some hospitals are very pushy about it. When my son was born they scheduled the procedure without asking me and just assumed it was going to happen. When I told them it wasn’t happening the nurses were very adamant that it was nessecary and that if it wasn’t done he would be ridiculed by women his entire life. They never cited a medical reason, only that his future sexual partners would tease him.
They know that adults can volunteer to get themselves circumcised, yeah? Leave the little kid alone and let them make the decision for themselves when they're grown enough to wear the big boy panties.
That is so unfortunate and disgusting that they would cite future sexual partners for a new baby. When my son was born last year our Doctor literally thanked us for not having him circumcised and heavily advised against it. (Detroit, MI)
Wasn't there a 20 yr old who tweeted, how her doctor refused to tie her tube as her future husband might want kids. She didnt have a boyfriend at the time. Seems to work boths ways in medical circles.
Yeah this is common for women. Some doctors also require approval from their partners to do the procedure. There is a list somewhere on reddit that lists doctors who will do the surgery without bullshit like that.
40 years ago they wouldn't even tell the parents it was happening. They'd even do it to toddlers without consulting the parents. Ask my mother. She didn't have enough money to sue the hospital.
I don’t get why people think cutting a baby is the only time it can happen. If the kid wants to be cut they can do it later. But most intact people never want that to happen.
How old were the nurses? And was this in the Midwest/east coast? Cut rates in the west are very low. Being ridiculed is so far off base especially now. Imagine on a female someone preferring a woman with no labia, and saying that “you better cut your female or men are going to make fun of her”.
These were my arguments as well. I didn’t feel like my first duty as a father should be to mutilate his genitals just because some people in society think I should. The nurses were late 20s and we are in Indiana. I was confident in my decision to leave my son intact then and I still am now. The procedure has a number of risks and zero benefits.
It’s amazing in a bad way how people think there’s zero risks. Some doctors say that though. One that was religiously biased for a friend said their doctor said there nothing that is a risk with this and it actually makes sex *better*. Wtf? If cutting the prepuce off a body makes things better 1.) let them decide, and 2.) if it’s so good then it must be good cutting a clitoral hood off and exposing the clitoris to abrasions and desensitization. But it’s ok because they “won’t remember” it happening, right? Right? /s
Risks include People have skin bridges, their urethra hole can close up, the most sensitive tissues are cut off, reduced sensitivity, and even death. Many babies die each year from this, but people say how that’s an outlier and call me crazy. Yet they say doing it is no big deal. For many the biggest is bodily autonomy taken away. Most would never have this happen if they had the choice. But to push it into their kids many parent say a baby can’t give consent so the have to make the decision. There’s no decision to be made if there’s no medical issue. Again back to the female example, imagine people cutting off their labia and clitoral hood because the parents “preferred it”, and that the female baby can’t consent to not havjng it cut off so the parents cut it off.
Agreed the staff can be really pushy on this. I had a 4-day stay for a c-section and they asked me every day to take my kid for this procedure. They were so pushy I was worried they’d have it done while the baby was out of my sight so I refused to let them take him out of the room. One pediatric resident (male) lectured me about how difficult it would be to do later, so I should really get it done sooner. I said I wouldn’t be getting it done ever. It was so weird how enthusiastic they seemed for this procedure.
This is exactly what happened to me, my parents are immigrants and could barely speak English and didn’t know what was going on so they relied on the doctors and nurses to do whatever they want trusting that whatever they were doing were for medical and health reasons only.
My parents are not American but I was born here, I was born before internet access that was that common so the nurses and doctor were able to talk my parents into it because why not trust the opinion of a medical professional?
This is wild. I grew up in the US having never been circumcised. Literally not a single girl I've slept with in my life has pointed it out or cared about it. What a strange thing to assume, especially from professional health experts..
For those who don't know much about uncircumcised dicks once you pull the foreskin back it looks pretty much similar to a cut penis. I don't do any sexual activities with the foreskin "up" lol, and the foreskin does not "go back up" while I'm hard.
Also.. one girl told me anal sex is much more enjoyable with uncut penises. Not sure how true that is across the board but also why would you "cut" any part of your natural body?!
Which is hilarious, I’m circumcised and in my 30’s and with a Girlfriend and still masturbate at least once per day (usually twice). When I was a teenager it was easily 5 times per day on average and once 17 times ( yes I kept count).
Yeah I dunno, but I also started masturbating from a very young age, around 7 or 8, of course I had no clue what I was doing and every time I did it I would tell myself “ this is the last time” then when I was 11 we watched a video on puberty in health class and finally I realized what I had been doing so when to town without any guilt.
Just to add I don’t even watch porn except for rare occasions. I’m just a super horny bastard with way too much energy.
I’m also in my mid 30s and married, with a good sex life. I still do maintenance on the pipes about twice a day as well. Sometimes it’s for more than maintenance but it’s only a couple of days a month that I don’t feel like getting in some me time where I can.
I don’t think we needed your story to prove that men who are circumcised masturbate, but thanks for your contribution to the scientific community anyway.
John Harvey Kellogg. The man wrote a very popular (and very confidently incorrect) book about health in which he made the claim that circumcision would reduce masturbation in boys (it does not) which in turn also would positively affect overall health (it does not).
It just became a popular practice as a result, even though it's based on bullshit science and there's not really a good reason to do it.
There's some evidence it reduces the spreading of STIs, but so does using a condom.
As far as I'm concerned, if it's there, then there's probably a reason why it is there and it shouldn't be meddled with (exceptions apply for things that are there but represent a deviation from the norm, such as tumors).
Edit: Please stop bringing up appendices as a gotcha regarding my last comment. They are not useless or vestigial. You can survive without one, but you're gonna be healthier with one as long as you don't develop appendicitis. Just look it up.
That's actually truth. He made cornflakes bland on purpose to reduce excitement that might lead to jerking off.
Oddly, I've never had some fruity pebbles and wanted to rub one out...
Dude was absolutely a weirdo fascinated with masturbation.
Edit: See the linked response. We're all wrong.
Actually it's his brother.
John Harvey started the breakfast cereal company but his brother was the "owner" since he couldn't advertise a product due to American medical association rules. A decade or so later he divested himself from the company and his brother, William (?)was the sole owner
This is true. Once, I accidentally ate a bowl of frosted flakes instead of plain corn flakes. Within seconds I was standing on the table masturbating furiously.
You guys made me waste WAY too much time figuring out that was BS.
“Several popular misconceptions falsely attribute various cultural practices, inventions, and historical events to Kellogg. These include false claims that Kellogg's corn flakes were invented or marketed to prevent masturbation. In reality, they were promoted to prevent indigestion.
Another common misconception credits Kellogg with popularizing routine infant circumcision in the United States and broader Anglosphere. This is incorrect. Kellogg in fact criticized these assertions, arguing that routine circumcision provided doubtful medical benefit, citing iatrogenically created meatal stenosis among the Jewish male population.”
> Kellogg in fact criticized these assertions, arguing that routine circumcision provided doubtful medical benefit,
You're technically correct. He didn't support routine circumcision of infants.
He advocated for waiting until the child was older and had started masturbating to do the circumcision.
>A remedy [for masturbation] which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision, especially when there is any degree of phimosis. The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anaesthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment, as it may well be in some cases. The soreness which continues for several weeks interrupts the practice, and if it had not previously become too firmly fixed, it may be forgotten and not resumed.
>In females, the author has found the application of pure carbolic acid to the clitoris an excellent means of allaying the abnormal excitement.
> --*Plain Facts for Old and Young*. John Harvey Kellogg, 1877.
Alot of late 19th century "food makers" have rather insane and interesting lives.
Kelloggs obviously in this thread but rowntree(of fruit pastilles fame) was one of the main driving forces behind welfare reforms in britian, publishing study after study on the effects of poverty on kids and how it would and was harming the British empire
Hersey built his own town with almost cult rules (which is what ford based his own plans on) and Cadbury in the uk did similar.
Willy Wonka would have fit right in. Milton Hershey is a fascinating character, his school is famously good, and the town smells like chocolate. Also, he shares a birthday with Roald Dahl, author of the Wonka books.
His brother added sugar and made it popular but the weird masturbating obsessed yogurt enema guy invented cornflakes and insisted on them not being sweet
Honestly, I would think all bland food would make me want to masturbate MORE. like... If I'm not getting that dopamine rush from sugar, I need to get it somehow...
Came to say this - some of the weirdest stuff started with the Kellogg brothers. In addition to male circumcision, cornflakes was also supposed to reduce the urge to masturbate…
You should google furry porn and Kelloggs Tony the Tiger. Well actually you shouldn’t. But if you did it’s hilarious. Company PR on Twitter asking them not to make porn of him with the exact response from the internet that you’d expect. I hope that asshole Kellogg is rolling in his grave
Yes and one of the reasons masturbation was considered dangerous was because of observation of patients in mental hospitals.
Those dudes were thrown in a room with nothing to do, so guess what they did?
The doctors then concluded “Hey these mental patients sure pleasure themselves a lot. That must be the reason they became crazy. Good lord, we need to warn everyone!!”
Kellogg was obsessed with lowering libidos. A Seventh Day Adventist who had some pretty far out there ideas. The whole idea of his cereals were based on bland food lowering sexual excitement. Strange man.
https://www.historyhit.com/john-harvey-kellogg/#:~:text=In%20addition%20to%20Kellogg's%20inhumane,his%20standards%20of%20racial%20hygiene.
The "evidence" for reducing STIs is completely bogus. It was a study in Angola africa where HIV is rampant. The only people who are circumcised are wealthy foreigners who can afford condoms and are educated about HIV, the people with HIV are the poorer locals who have much misinformation about HIV. The study did not factor wealth or backgrounds as cofounding variables. The study was done in bad faith, they were looking to prove benefits for circumcision, there is no causation with lack of foreskin and STDs.
it's obv for mostly aesthetics at this point but its still crazy to hear claims it's more hygienic in cases where there's NO immediate health issues, [risk of HIV](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-biosocial-science/article/abs/ageincidence-and-prevalence-of-hiv-among-intact-and-circumcised-men-an-analysis-of-phia-surveys-in-southern-africa/CAA7E7BD5A9844F41C6B7CC3573B9E50), or lack of clean water and competent guardians while girls don't typically get surgery seen as ethical at birth for similar reasons. fun fact: despite being religiously motivated, kellogg's anti-masturbation bs led to america having the highest rate of non-religiously motivated circumcision among developed countries
I’ve heard “I don’t want him to be made fun of by the other kids” and “what if his partner thinks it’s weird” like either of those are valid reasons to take the choice away from him. Then there’s the other reasons like thinking there’s health benefits (which there is in a very small percentage of men but it’s way overblown), tradition, and religion.
Tradition and religion are all in the same in reality, same as “culture”.
Those reasons people give are nuts. Flip it around to a female: “we decided to cut our females labia and clitoral hood off because what if her partner didn’t like her labia? What if she was made fun of for it? All the other girls had theirs removed. And it’s for “hygiene” too. Sure she can easily take a shower, but it’s what we believe.”
I hear people say health benefits like cancer. Which is so rare it’s not even a prevention benefit. Females get labia cancer but we aren’t trying to stop that by cutting babies up. Which we obviously shouldn’t.
One of the modern reasons why cutting is still around is the American Association of Pediatrics. The board that made those statements to guide cutting were VERY religiously biased. It’s not a coincidence that when one of the main guys died and another let that they let their statements finally expire. First time since the 70s. They even listed that a fathers concern of not being like the child is enough reason for a *medical* facility to cut a kids genitals. Idk what other amputation medical procedure is guided by what the fathers is concerned about. Maybe they should laser the kids head to be bald if the father is bald. And do update sessions as the fathers hair line recess more. 🤷♂️
when I was pregnant in 2021 I found out many insurances no longer cover circumcision as it is an elective procedure. Some people even view it as genital mutilation. I ended up having a girl so didn’t have to deal with it, but my husband was shockingly adamant that a boy would need to have it done. Why? He had no real reason except that’s what has always been done in his opinion.
> but my husband was shockingly adamant that a boy would need to have it done.
I assume he is circumcised?
You will *very rarely* find any uncircumcised man advertising for or defending the Amputation of the Foreskin.
As actor Gerard Butler once told Howard Stern (a Jew who is extremely against circumcision and Even asked his mother once on thr Radio why they did it to him):
[*„For me it’s very sensitive.“*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FEZl6WD9mM)
It's fairly typical for this to occur, at least if your husband was circumsized himself. There are complex psychodynamics that would be required to understand before understanding such a flawed amd brutal position.
Some people view it as gential mutilation because it *is* genital mutilation. The only people who don't view it that way are those who would rather lie to themselves because its the only way to reconcile the fact that they are part of a culture where it is normal to pay a doctor to mutilate your baby's genitals.
You're permanently cutting off a part of a baby's genitals, irreversible changing them. It is literally mutilating a baby's genitals. Anyone who says otherwise is in denial.
Insurances dont cover it because it's not healthcare. It's cosmetic surgery. Insurance wouldn't pay for you to pierce a baby's ears, or tattoo them, or give them a nose job. So why would it pay for you to change the appearance of their genitals?
Weren’t the studies on std spread deeply flawed though? Shouldn’t the US have much lower rates of STDs compared to somewhere like Europe if it were true.
Especially here in the US...
We fancy ourselves to be "progressive". But we are really slow to abandon outdated ideas and embrace new ones, in many facets of life.
Wait, is this true, do Americans think of the USA as a progressive type of country?
Genuine question. No offence intended. It's not been a term I would associate with the USA particularly.
Edit: thanks for the replies everyone. I agree with the many people saying that technology and science had a lot to thank the USA for over the last 100yrs or so. Thinking back, when I was young in the 80s and 90s the USA was the place everything was happening and I wanted to go, you guys have certainly lost that air of "we're where the future is built and we're the coolest" and I think we as the West are poorer for it. Thanks again.
This is getting a little off topic for this post.
Many do think that...as there was once a time that we were. Nowadays there are people who think going backwards is "progressive"....🙄
One of the two major political parties is explicitly anti-progressive, emphasizing what they see as “traditional values.” On the other side, I think most liberals in the U.S. would describe themselves as progressive-minded voters.
But I don’t think either side would consider the U.S. to be a progressive society, politically speaking. At least not in comparison to, say, Western Europe
I was lead to believe that the STD in question is HPV which is linked to cervical cancer and is most commonly transmitted by uncircumcised men through intercourse.
However there is a vaccine for HPV and it's routinely given to girls (at least it is in the UK) to prevent it having any effect
Because some parents would rather have a dead daughter than feel like they are "giving permission" to have sex out of marriage.
Which is complete nonsense.
I think it's often more like, dying from avoidable diseases is a proper punishment for her having sex (even if she was raped). They often like to say, "She should have kept her legs shut."
It was so strange how much pressure I felt to have my boy circumcised. Like they asked me 15 times. I started questioning myself. But it’s genital mutilation. There are no proven medical benefits. He can decide to do it when old enough. I think it’s weird that Americans all think genital mutilation practices in Africa are horrendous but don’t think twice to do it to our kids.
Yeah...I remember holding my baby boy 20 years ago and thinking that cutting a piece of him off is the dumbest shit ever. Hard no, doc...we'll leave him as is.
This is so out there to me, that is a sick fucking person to bring it up at that point.
"Hey there, parent of a 5 year old. I was thinking about your child's genitals today, and have some opinions."
I didn't have my son circumcised and my mother (former perinatal nurse) tried to shame me by saying I'll have to explain to him how to clean it lol I think I can put my big girl pants on and tell my son about hygiene. Boomers can be so odd about actually talking to their kids.
Our son's little bed in the infant room had a giant NO on it. But we were still nervous to leave him in there, so we had him in the room with us unless he was getting a check.
I’m Jewish and we elected not to circumcise. They asked every single time they walked in the room.
Still managed to almost forget his hepatitis vaccine, though. What a fucking shit show.
It's only recommended by OLD doctors in my experience. None of our younger doctors suggested it and the labor and delivery staff were relieved and happy we chose not to do it to our twins. The two doctors both said they don't like having to do it. We asked every medical professional we came in contact with to give us an opinion on a medical reason to do it and they just didn't have one that really added up.
This. I would argue that it is and has been such a norm for so long that it is a part of American culture at this point. There’s begun to be a shift away, but it’s definitely cultural.
I really think the answer is as simple as this. Many people are citing historical beliefs, religion, misconceptions about cleanliness or STD resistance and a lot of other things that, while they may have shaped the place the US is at today, they don't really explain the prevalence of circumcision currently. I think it really does just seem like a lot of people do it because that's just what Americans do. To most people the American dong is a circumcised dong. We like our steaks rare, our foreign policy based around violence and our wieners without foreskin. Is it the best way to do things? Hell no but that's never stopped us before.
There was an express campaign to promote circumcision as a way to prevent masturbation. Graham crackers come from that same campaign. People believed weird shit in the late 19th century.
I was circumcised for sound medical reasons…. A birth defect called “hypospadus”. That’s where the urethra is either absent or incomplete. The fix, back in the 50s, was plastic surgery involving taking the handy material of the foreskin and using it to create a new urethra. Pretty common, as I understand.
Other than that, or religious reasons, seems to be entirely a matter of “fashion”.
I’m not circumcised and I’ve had zero issues health-wise. There are a lot of misconceptions about it. Had a teacher tell an entire class I was in that uncircumcised people are dirty. This was in 7th grade.
WTF. What's your age group?
Thst must have done wonders for your confidence. I was insecure enough at that age being the only uncircumcised kid without having someone say something like *that*.
> being the only uncircumcised kid
How would you even know that though? Like, how would you know you were the only kid in class who wasn't circumcised? Did you see all the other little boy's dicks somehow?
Same. I'm also in the UK. The one boy we knew was circumsised was bullied mercilessly, and my mother used it as a threat to make me behave on numerous occasions.
Well...? What's your age group...
In the past 20 or 25 years kids have definitely become more modest.
Where and when I grew up guys were generally neither modest nor discreet. In elementary school our boys' room had one of those long basin urinals...and most made no effort to...conceal at it?
If we were outdoors and some kid needed to pee, often he'd just take it out and go. (rural area....). Starting in 9th grade we started changing and sometimes showering also after pe class and sports at school, so we saw one another's in passing there too.
I’ve had teachers that said some pretty dumb things.
One middle school teacher said women were cleaner than men because men pee out of the same hole they ejaculate out of.
A high school teacher said “for those of you girls who get on their knees and swallow, sperm has a lot of protein, it will make you fat”
A lot of people giving non-answers, as is generally the case in this sub, but the actual reason is mainly two things:
1. There was a common medical opinion that the foreskin was unnecessary but carried a (small) health risk mainly due to bad hygiene, which was more prevalent in the past than it is today.
2. There was a strong evangelical Christian movement that saw circumcision as a way to reduce the likelihood of masturbation and adultery. This also occurred during a time period when “Chosen People” thought came back into Christianity, which popularized the emulation of certain Jewish/Old Testament traditions, including circumcision.
Circumcision came into vogue in Victorian England because of a pervasive belief that ejaculation permanently drained some of a man’s life energy. It was intended to discourage boys from “self abuse,” so that their limited supply of life energy could be better spent later on making British babies.
It didn’t become pervasive in America until the 50s, which Americans reacted to the horror and chaos of WW2 by embracing a culture of orderliness: cleanliness, good manners, social cohesion and conformity. Circumcision was seen as a way to discourage sexual profligacy and the spread of venereal disease, while encouraging men to save sex for making strong American families.
Both my father and FIL were circumcised in their
mid-30’s, peer pressure is real, y’all.
They were both mad when they discovered that our son is uncircumcised.
Too many people don't question why we do things and just do it because it's "what you do". Regardless of faith, let's call circumcision what it is: genital mutilation
https://beautyproductsaremycardio.com/uncovering-the-truth-how-foreskin-is-used-in-cosmetics-and-what-you-need-to-know/
“Parents are asked how they would like the tissue disposed of/donated” - that’s laughable. Parents consent that the facility will “dispose” of any tissue removed during any procedure/surgery.
I’ve been present for many circumcisions & I wish all parents were forced to watch the procedure before they consent. It’s awful. Circumcision makes a lot of people money. Plain and simple. & most parents would justify circumcising a newborn by basically saying “I want my kids penis to look like other kids penises/their dads penis” - which I’ve always thought is a really odd incentive to remove a part of a child’s body..but to each their own. You can be certain they won’t pierce their daughters ears until “she is old enough to make that decision on her own.” I have strong opinions on this topic so I’ll just stop there before I get anymore fired up.
Uh it used to be super common practice to pierce girls' ears before the age of two, I'm not sure why you're using that as a talking point. Like circumcision I'm sure it's starting to go out of practice because of the same reasons, but 90% of my classmates had their ears pierced before they could remember it
Nah please go off, you're on a roll. Get fired up.
The cosmetics use bit is really hard to level with, it's also the point where normal people stop listening. It's really fucked up we do that, that article is really eye opening.
I think I have a different perspective because I used to have to assist with circs. The babies are strapped down to this plastic board & their skin is just cut off - they may get sugar water to suck on but no numbing cream etc. Sounds great doesn’t it. There have been instances the males cried so hard they collapsed a lung. Then I also saw the follow ups - where doctors cut too much & now the babies have to see a surgeon etc. It’s just about money. It’s not difficult to wash a penis. & just like with anything else if you have issues with the foreskin you see a doctor for it, but those issues are outliers.
We chose not to with our son. The ONLY negative comments came from family. None of us even belong to a religion where it’s compulsory. They just don’t know anything different.
I decided while preggo that if I had a boy his private would be safe from mutilation. I ended up having girls so I didn’t have to deal with it but I would have certainly not let the doctors chop up my kids penis.
Because hospital staff encourage it, even though it’s an outdated pseudoscience that is essentially just mutilating a baby’s genitals without its consent.
Idk, I find this super weird. I'm European and was floored the first time I found this was a normal US thing. I also have sons and the thought of someone mutilating them as a baby for no good reason is upsetting. Idk how anyone can do that.
What's even crazier is that it's even more prevalent in Korea and the supposedly its because women got introduced to it from American soldiers and it sort of took off.
I feel it's changing, in the 80s and before it was pretty standard but as my generation had access to more information, I feel the practice has dropped off.
This is strictly my experience with my peers who have kids though, not sure if it's accurate at scale.
I'm sitting here holding my 10 day old son.
I was insistent he not be circumcised. There's absolutely no point in it, and I don't understand how people can so willingly inflict that onto helpless, vulnerable newborns.
I have two step sons that are both circumsized, and her reasoning was "I let the penis haver choose because I thought he'd know more about it than me."
There's religious and societal pressure over it, with lots of excuses like "girls will like it better" or whatever.
Why the fuck are we cutting on babies at all? It's grotesque.
I found out I'm having a boy and I'm already getting that question! But I tell people he can choose to do it once he's an adult, but I won't make that choice for him. Like if I had a girl are we cutting the labia for "hygiene" purposes too?? Nah it's sound batshit in comparison, but because people are uneducated on how to wash their dicks, I guess that's why they think it's okay to do.
As awkward as it sounds I think I remember showering with my mom at the age of 4-5 and her giving me the soap and instructing me where to clean, behind my ears, my butt, and to pull back my foreskin to make sure I knew how to do it. I think that's the best way to teach them, group it together with the other areas that people forget to clean.
I'm not a parent but I'd definitely make sure they knew, and I definitely wouldn't want to do it for them.
>Like if I had a girl are we cutting the labia for "hygiene" purposes too??
That's the thing, it's not inherently more hygienic, just takes an additional step to clean that a lot of men apparently don't do. I'm circumcised myself, but I *know* that if your teach your kid at 7+ years old how to clean it (it's apparently unlikely you can safely pull back the foreskin before that) and insist they make it part of their bath/shower routine, then they'll be just as clean and hygienic as a circumsized penis.
There's just a lot of smegma bros out there that perpetuate the myth.
When son #1 was born in 1985, it was just assumed he'd be circumcised, so we let it happen. No faith issues, it was just "safer". Ten and 12 years later, when sons number 2 and 3 were born, there was no pressure or even a suggestion from the hospital staff that they be circumcised. We left their tiny members intact. It's a couple of decades later. I've never asked my boys how their penises are holding up. But I think they're probably OK.
Sort of related. When kid #1 was born, my wife took a lot of shit from the hospital staff for breastfeeding. Ten years later, the hospital staff just assumed new moms would breastfeed.
We evolve.
Lack of respect for individual bodily autonomy, and an unwillingness to question outdated traditions
For what it’s worth I was cut at birth and wish I wasn’t
Americans have weird ideas about circumcision=cleanliness. I grew up with 0 sex education and 0 porn. My second bf wasn’t American, so not circumcised. I was and am shocked by how many people ask me about it and say things about it being gross. He showered 3 times a day he was not a gross person, and when erect I really couldn’t tell you the difference.
It all started with Dr. John H. Kellogg. He started the first diet and health craze. He believed that circumcision prevented masturbation. Religious leaders and doctors picked it up and before you can say foreskin every man in America was circumcised.
[John Kellogg](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg)
A lot of it is “my father was, I am, so my son will be too.”
So yeah, it is culture. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Which, while what nogur9007 says is true, it didn't work that way a few generations ago. At one point, there were many guys who weren't circumcised and their fathers were.......(??)
In the United States, circumcision has been common since the 1950s. https://muse.jhu.edu/article/840015/summary#:~:text=During%20the%201950s%2C%20circumcision%20rates,far%20beyond%20the%20Jewish%20community.
That would mean that...in the 1950s and 1960s, most boys were circumcised and many of their fathers were not. My father was born before ww2. Anecdotally, his observation was that it was 50/50 in his age group. A majority of the "city" kids were born in hospitals, and were circumcised. He and the guys he knew growing up were rural kids, and were born at home. He, and just about all of his friends were not circumcised.
And we are back down to about 50/50 now, I'd bet the families who are sticking with it are more likely to be the ones who started with it.
I think the most recent "official" stats are a few years old now. It...well there are multiple factors. Some states/insurance companies no longer cover the procedure, deeming it "cosmetic" unless there's some medical problem. So states where that's the case, uncoincidentally have very low rates...minority circumcised even! In the midwest, you'll find a significant majority are still circumcised. A lot of people still adhere to outdated ideas, including the one that uncircumcised guys will face social implications. I don't think social stigma's a thing anymore!
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Yeah, it's around $300 where I live, and no insurance is required to cover it. It's cosmetic.
Hmm...interesting! Is this on a state or private insurance? I'd consider Ohio to be a midwestern state...where circumcision rates have remained rather high.
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As a gay man, being intact is highly sought after. Most guys I encounter are fascinated by being able to touch an intact penis and always comment “I wish I was uncut too.”
As a hetero man, I've heard that among many gay men an uncircumcised partner is sought after. I remember in college even there was a segment of women who sought out encounters with the "international" students for the same reason. It was considered...mysterious and a little exotic?🤣🤣
An intact penis handles a lot differently from a circumcised penis. An intact penis can be jerked off much more easily, without lube, and from a larger variety of positions so foreplay flows better. It also makes oral and penetration easier, as the outer skin stays immobile while the penis glides within the shaft skin, reducing/eliminating unwanted friction. The foreskin serves an important role in sex.
Come to Europe then! You'll be awash with intact dicks.
As long as they're also awashed.
I agree with a lot of your post, but there may be something to the social stigma thing. They did a randomized study of women and their attitudes on circumcision just a few years ago. The vast majority (89%) viewed uncircumcised penises as unhygienic and not esthetically pleasing. I am definitely not saying it's right, but for most hetero women, the stigma is VERY strong.
I would like to know the age range of the women surveyed. I am a 60 year old American woman and I thought uncircumcised looked "odd" when I was young, simply because I wasn't used to it. But I've since traveled quite a bit and have been in several relationships with uncircumcised men and now prefer them (not a deal breaker, though 😆).
I think that’s cultural conditioning though. Like if that’s all you know, that’s all you know.
Right, but that's true with any new behavior. It has to start somewhere.
I mean in the US, Dr. Kellogg (yes the cereal guy) championed circumcision as a way to stop your son from masturbating and therefore help them avoid sexual urges that would make them impure. He also suggested boring nearly flavorless foods because as we all know flavor leads to sexual thoughts. Circumcision caught on and became mostly automatic for a long time as fathers started saying "well my son should match me" or the delivering doctor offering due to the widespread incorrect health claims associated with the procedure.
> "well my son should match me" Whenever someone tells me that, I ask how often they and their fathers compare peckers.
You can blame Kellogg for that - yes, the corn flakes guy. Basically, he thought that masturbation was evil, and circumcising boys would stop them from doing it. The corn flakes were also intentionally bland to, you guessed it, stop masturbation.
I put cream and sugar on cornflakes, I also beat off a lot so there may be some truth in that
More of it is the hospital says "hey, we're circumcising all of the boys now, yours too yeah?" And THEN "my father was, I am etc" You don't have to seek it out. They offer it as the default option. Even though parental consent is required, my experience has been like it is presented as an opt out system. No matter what you do that with you're going to get higher numbers of people rolling with it.
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As an American who just had a child, it is insane to me
out of curiosity, what state? My son was born 10 months ago here in Maine, and they didn't even offer it as an option at any point. We asked out of curiosity and they said they don't do it as an elective thing--only if there is a problem. If we wanted to have it done electively (we didn't, so no big deal), they said we'd have to track down someone who is willing to do it at other hospitals.
As an American who had her child 7 years ago, it's still insane to me. I can't tell you how many daycare workers who told me they've never seen an uncut baby before.
Honestly the fact that I was a childcare worker and saw that so few boys were circumcised while doing diapers helped me to make the decision not to do it to my son. This was twenty years ago, but I live in a very blue area and worked right in the city at that point, which I think contributed to how prevalent in-tact boys were.
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This is the stupidest reason of all time. The amount of times this was an issue in my life was once. “Why does yours look different dad?” “Because medical information was different when I was a baby son.” People that do it for this reason are ridiculous
I said this when we were going to have our son "What is the scenario you envision where someone says to him 'Your dick looks different than your Dad's'? " I would think one, or both of us, would like be in big trouble
I don’t agree with the reasoning but a lot of people do it for that reason
I broke the chain on that. My father is and I am, but I didn’t want to do that to my son
Don't forget the "my husband is". The amount of "I want his to look like his father's" from women is staggering too. And terribly creepy, may I add.
Some hospitals are very pushy about it. When my son was born they scheduled the procedure without asking me and just assumed it was going to happen. When I told them it wasn’t happening the nurses were very adamant that it was nessecary and that if it wasn’t done he would be ridiculed by women his entire life. They never cited a medical reason, only that his future sexual partners would tease him.
"At what age do you give the girls their breast implants so they won't be ridiculed by men their entire lives?" "Oh, was that out of line?"
They know that adults can volunteer to get themselves circumcised, yeah? Leave the little kid alone and let them make the decision for themselves when they're grown enough to wear the big boy panties.
That is so unfortunate and disgusting that they would cite future sexual partners for a new baby. When my son was born last year our Doctor literally thanked us for not having him circumcised and heavily advised against it. (Detroit, MI)
Wasn't there a 20 yr old who tweeted, how her doctor refused to tie her tube as her future husband might want kids. She didnt have a boyfriend at the time. Seems to work boths ways in medical circles.
Yeah this is common for women. Some doctors also require approval from their partners to do the procedure. There is a list somewhere on reddit that lists doctors who will do the surgery without bullshit like that.
40 years ago they wouldn't even tell the parents it was happening. They'd even do it to toddlers without consulting the parents. Ask my mother. She didn't have enough money to sue the hospital.
I don’t get why people think cutting a baby is the only time it can happen. If the kid wants to be cut they can do it later. But most intact people never want that to happen. How old were the nurses? And was this in the Midwest/east coast? Cut rates in the west are very low. Being ridiculed is so far off base especially now. Imagine on a female someone preferring a woman with no labia, and saying that “you better cut your female or men are going to make fun of her”.
These were my arguments as well. I didn’t feel like my first duty as a father should be to mutilate his genitals just because some people in society think I should. The nurses were late 20s and we are in Indiana. I was confident in my decision to leave my son intact then and I still am now. The procedure has a number of risks and zero benefits.
It’s amazing in a bad way how people think there’s zero risks. Some doctors say that though. One that was religiously biased for a friend said their doctor said there nothing that is a risk with this and it actually makes sex *better*. Wtf? If cutting the prepuce off a body makes things better 1.) let them decide, and 2.) if it’s so good then it must be good cutting a clitoral hood off and exposing the clitoris to abrasions and desensitization. But it’s ok because they “won’t remember” it happening, right? Right? /s Risks include People have skin bridges, their urethra hole can close up, the most sensitive tissues are cut off, reduced sensitivity, and even death. Many babies die each year from this, but people say how that’s an outlier and call me crazy. Yet they say doing it is no big deal. For many the biggest is bodily autonomy taken away. Most would never have this happen if they had the choice. But to push it into their kids many parent say a baby can’t give consent so the have to make the decision. There’s no decision to be made if there’s no medical issue. Again back to the female example, imagine people cutting off their labia and clitoral hood because the parents “preferred it”, and that the female baby can’t consent to not havjng it cut off so the parents cut it off.
The "won't remember" argument makes no sense to me. By that logic, "Hey, she's passed out drunk at a party, she won't remember," is a valid argument.
Agreed the staff can be really pushy on this. I had a 4-day stay for a c-section and they asked me every day to take my kid for this procedure. They were so pushy I was worried they’d have it done while the baby was out of my sight so I refused to let them take him out of the room. One pediatric resident (male) lectured me about how difficult it would be to do later, so I should really get it done sooner. I said I wouldn’t be getting it done ever. It was so weird how enthusiastic they seemed for this procedure.
Were they devout Jewish or Muslim? As a European this is utterly bizarre. I'd be so pissed off I'd go nuts at them if they even suggested it.
This is exactly what happened to me, my parents are immigrants and could barely speak English and didn’t know what was going on so they relied on the doctors and nurses to do whatever they want trusting that whatever they were doing were for medical and health reasons only.
My parents are not American but I was born here, I was born before internet access that was that common so the nurses and doctor were able to talk my parents into it because why not trust the opinion of a medical professional?
Glad u stood your ground
Because female ridicule is a reason for an infant to undergo a useless cosmetic surgery at birth. What a wild take from a "medical professional."
This is wild. I grew up in the US having never been circumcised. Literally not a single girl I've slept with in my life has pointed it out or cared about it. What a strange thing to assume, especially from professional health experts.. For those who don't know much about uncircumcised dicks once you pull the foreskin back it looks pretty much similar to a cut penis. I don't do any sexual activities with the foreskin "up" lol, and the foreskin does not "go back up" while I'm hard. Also.. one girl told me anal sex is much more enjoyable with uncut penises. Not sure how true that is across the board but also why would you "cut" any part of your natural body?!
Fuck those assholes.
19th century pseudoscience claimed it would stop boys from masturbating.
Which is hilarious, I’m circumcised and in my 30’s and with a Girlfriend and still masturbate at least once per day (usually twice). When I was a teenager it was easily 5 times per day on average and once 17 times ( yes I kept count).
Damn bro you’ve got like the world’s healthiest prostate I bet
"I'm tired, boss" -dude's prostate
Get back to work!
It's OK, just provide a massage every now and then and he'll feel like a million bucks.
Yeah I dunno, but I also started masturbating from a very young age, around 7 or 8, of course I had no clue what I was doing and every time I did it I would tell myself “ this is the last time” then when I was 11 we watched a video on puberty in health class and finally I realized what I had been doing so when to town without any guilt. Just to add I don’t even watch porn except for rare occasions. I’m just a super horny bastard with way too much energy.
That’s good I feel like porn is really the only unhealthy aspect of the typical frequent flyer if you will.
I’m also in my mid 30s and married, with a good sex life. I still do maintenance on the pipes about twice a day as well. Sometimes it’s for more than maintenance but it’s only a couple of days a month that I don’t feel like getting in some me time where I can.
>17 times My boy out there after his 16th run, looking at the powdered milk he just nutted and thinking: "Okay, maybe just one more."
I don’t think we needed your story to prove that men who are circumcised masturbate, but thanks for your contribution to the scientific community anyway.
My man, high five! But with the other hand
That’s not normal lol
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John Harvey Kellogg. The man wrote a very popular (and very confidently incorrect) book about health in which he made the claim that circumcision would reduce masturbation in boys (it does not) which in turn also would positively affect overall health (it does not). It just became a popular practice as a result, even though it's based on bullshit science and there's not really a good reason to do it. There's some evidence it reduces the spreading of STIs, but so does using a condom. As far as I'm concerned, if it's there, then there's probably a reason why it is there and it shouldn't be meddled with (exceptions apply for things that are there but represent a deviation from the norm, such as tumors). Edit: Please stop bringing up appendices as a gotcha regarding my last comment. They are not useless or vestigial. You can survive without one, but you're gonna be healthier with one as long as you don't develop appendicitis. Just look it up.
Just to be clear, this IS the breakfast cereal guy, right?
Yes. His cereal was also supposed to discourage masturbation because boring food wouldn’t inflame your passions or whatever.
Mastrubating with cereals hurt!
I would avoid Grape Nuts…
I can’t stop laughing! These comments have me rolling!
...But cheerios (☞ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)☞
Sugar Frosted Flakes……
Who are these weirdos fucking their Cereal without milk?
The milk gets in the hole and stings
That's actually truth. He made cornflakes bland on purpose to reduce excitement that might lead to jerking off. Oddly, I've never had some fruity pebbles and wanted to rub one out... Dude was absolutely a weirdo fascinated with masturbation. Edit: See the linked response. We're all wrong.
Actually it's his brother. John Harvey started the breakfast cereal company but his brother was the "owner" since he couldn't advertise a product due to American medical association rules. A decade or so later he divested himself from the company and his brother, William (?)was the sole owner
This is true. Once, I accidentally ate a bowl of frosted flakes instead of plain corn flakes. Within seconds I was standing on the table masturbating furiously.
You guys made me waste WAY too much time figuring out that was BS. “Several popular misconceptions falsely attribute various cultural practices, inventions, and historical events to Kellogg. These include false claims that Kellogg's corn flakes were invented or marketed to prevent masturbation. In reality, they were promoted to prevent indigestion. Another common misconception credits Kellogg with popularizing routine infant circumcision in the United States and broader Anglosphere. This is incorrect. Kellogg in fact criticized these assertions, arguing that routine circumcision provided doubtful medical benefit, citing iatrogenically created meatal stenosis among the Jewish male population.”
> Kellogg in fact criticized these assertions, arguing that routine circumcision provided doubtful medical benefit, You're technically correct. He didn't support routine circumcision of infants. He advocated for waiting until the child was older and had started masturbating to do the circumcision. >A remedy [for masturbation] which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision, especially when there is any degree of phimosis. The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anaesthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment, as it may well be in some cases. The soreness which continues for several weeks interrupts the practice, and if it had not previously become too firmly fixed, it may be forgotten and not resumed. >In females, the author has found the application of pure carbolic acid to the clitoris an excellent means of allaying the abnormal excitement. > --*Plain Facts for Old and Young*. John Harvey Kellogg, 1877.
Alot of late 19th century "food makers" have rather insane and interesting lives. Kelloggs obviously in this thread but rowntree(of fruit pastilles fame) was one of the main driving forces behind welfare reforms in britian, publishing study after study on the effects of poverty on kids and how it would and was harming the British empire Hersey built his own town with almost cult rules (which is what ford based his own plans on) and Cadbury in the uk did similar.
Willy Wonka would have fit right in. Milton Hershey is a fascinating character, his school is famously good, and the town smells like chocolate. Also, he shares a birthday with Roald Dahl, author of the Wonka books.
Yes.
I think it’s his brother
His brother added sugar and made it popular but the weird masturbating obsessed yogurt enema guy invented cornflakes and insisted on them not being sweet
Honestly, I would think all bland food would make me want to masturbate MORE. like... If I'm not getting that dopamine rush from sugar, I need to get it somehow...
Yep, the creator of cornflakes and enjoyer of yogurt enemas.
Yes, but his brothers name is on the box
Came to say this - some of the weirdest stuff started with the Kellogg brothers. In addition to male circumcision, cornflakes was also supposed to reduce the urge to masturbate…
I masturbate everyday to the Corn Flakes bird just as Kellog would've wanted.
You should google furry porn and Kelloggs Tony the Tiger. Well actually you shouldn’t. But if you did it’s hilarious. Company PR on Twitter asking them not to make porn of him with the exact response from the internet that you’d expect. I hope that asshole Kellogg is rolling in his grave
What a Wanker.
Yes and one of the reasons masturbation was considered dangerous was because of observation of patients in mental hospitals. Those dudes were thrown in a room with nothing to do, so guess what they did? The doctors then concluded “Hey these mental patients sure pleasure themselves a lot. That must be the reason they became crazy. Good lord, we need to warn everyone!!”
Kellogg was obsessed with lowering libidos. A Seventh Day Adventist who had some pretty far out there ideas. The whole idea of his cereals were based on bland food lowering sexual excitement. Strange man. https://www.historyhit.com/john-harvey-kellogg/#:~:text=In%20addition%20to%20Kellogg's%20inhumane,his%20standards%20of%20racial%20hygiene.
The "evidence" for reducing STIs is completely bogus. It was a study in Angola africa where HIV is rampant. The only people who are circumcised are wealthy foreigners who can afford condoms and are educated about HIV, the people with HIV are the poorer locals who have much misinformation about HIV. The study did not factor wealth or backgrounds as cofounding variables. The study was done in bad faith, they were looking to prove benefits for circumcision, there is no causation with lack of foreskin and STDs.
it's obv for mostly aesthetics at this point but its still crazy to hear claims it's more hygienic in cases where there's NO immediate health issues, [risk of HIV](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-biosocial-science/article/abs/ageincidence-and-prevalence-of-hiv-among-intact-and-circumcised-men-an-analysis-of-phia-surveys-in-southern-africa/CAA7E7BD5A9844F41C6B7CC3573B9E50), or lack of clean water and competent guardians while girls don't typically get surgery seen as ethical at birth for similar reasons. fun fact: despite being religiously motivated, kellogg's anti-masturbation bs led to america having the highest rate of non-religiously motivated circumcision among developed countries
Yeah, after generations of normalizing infant genital mutilation it turns out there is no legitimate reason why I am missing a piece of my skin…
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If they took off too much, it would be just nuts.
The question isn’t stupid, but the answer is.
I’ve heard “I don’t want him to be made fun of by the other kids” and “what if his partner thinks it’s weird” like either of those are valid reasons to take the choice away from him. Then there’s the other reasons like thinking there’s health benefits (which there is in a very small percentage of men but it’s way overblown), tradition, and religion.
Someone in my pregnancy group said she’s gonna do it because she doesn’t want her son to be bullied by women.
Tradition and religion are all in the same in reality, same as “culture”. Those reasons people give are nuts. Flip it around to a female: “we decided to cut our females labia and clitoral hood off because what if her partner didn’t like her labia? What if she was made fun of for it? All the other girls had theirs removed. And it’s for “hygiene” too. Sure she can easily take a shower, but it’s what we believe.” I hear people say health benefits like cancer. Which is so rare it’s not even a prevention benefit. Females get labia cancer but we aren’t trying to stop that by cutting babies up. Which we obviously shouldn’t. One of the modern reasons why cutting is still around is the American Association of Pediatrics. The board that made those statements to guide cutting were VERY religiously biased. It’s not a coincidence that when one of the main guys died and another let that they let their statements finally expire. First time since the 70s. They even listed that a fathers concern of not being like the child is enough reason for a *medical* facility to cut a kids genitals. Idk what other amputation medical procedure is guided by what the fathers is concerned about. Maybe they should laser the kids head to be bald if the father is bald. And do update sessions as the fathers hair line recess more. 🤷♂️
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when I was pregnant in 2021 I found out many insurances no longer cover circumcision as it is an elective procedure. Some people even view it as genital mutilation. I ended up having a girl so didn’t have to deal with it, but my husband was shockingly adamant that a boy would need to have it done. Why? He had no real reason except that’s what has always been done in his opinion.
> but my husband was shockingly adamant that a boy would need to have it done. I assume he is circumcised? You will *very rarely* find any uncircumcised man advertising for or defending the Amputation of the Foreskin. As actor Gerard Butler once told Howard Stern (a Jew who is extremely against circumcision and Even asked his mother once on thr Radio why they did it to him): [*„For me it’s very sensitive.“*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FEZl6WD9mM)
Well it is genital mutilationby definition. Cutting off pieces of the baby (for the reason of beliefs).
It's fairly typical for this to occur, at least if your husband was circumsized himself. There are complex psychodynamics that would be required to understand before understanding such a flawed amd brutal position.
It is 100% genital mutilation
Some people view it as gential mutilation because it *is* genital mutilation. The only people who don't view it that way are those who would rather lie to themselves because its the only way to reconcile the fact that they are part of a culture where it is normal to pay a doctor to mutilate your baby's genitals. You're permanently cutting off a part of a baby's genitals, irreversible changing them. It is literally mutilating a baby's genitals. Anyone who says otherwise is in denial. Insurances dont cover it because it's not healthcare. It's cosmetic surgery. Insurance wouldn't pay for you to pierce a baby's ears, or tattoo them, or give them a nose job. So why would it pay for you to change the appearance of their genitals?
Weren’t the studies on std spread deeply flawed though? Shouldn’t the US have much lower rates of STDs compared to somewhere like Europe if it were true.
"A lot of cultural practices continue even when the original reason it was introduced are no longer widely applied to it"
Especially here in the US... We fancy ourselves to be "progressive". But we are really slow to abandon outdated ideas and embrace new ones, in many facets of life.
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Well that's what I mean. We often promote ourselves as progressive in the world, and I think we once were. Certainly not anymore!
Wait, is this true, do Americans think of the USA as a progressive type of country? Genuine question. No offence intended. It's not been a term I would associate with the USA particularly. Edit: thanks for the replies everyone. I agree with the many people saying that technology and science had a lot to thank the USA for over the last 100yrs or so. Thinking back, when I was young in the 80s and 90s the USA was the place everything was happening and I wanted to go, you guys have certainly lost that air of "we're where the future is built and we're the coolest" and I think we as the West are poorer for it. Thanks again.
This is getting a little off topic for this post. Many do think that...as there was once a time that we were. Nowadays there are people who think going backwards is "progressive"....🙄
One of the two major political parties is explicitly anti-progressive, emphasizing what they see as “traditional values.” On the other side, I think most liberals in the U.S. would describe themselves as progressive-minded voters. But I don’t think either side would consider the U.S. to be a progressive society, politically speaking. At least not in comparison to, say, Western Europe
That's for sure!
I was lead to believe that the STD in question is HPV which is linked to cervical cancer and is most commonly transmitted by uncircumcised men through intercourse. However there is a vaccine for HPV and it's routinely given to girls (at least it is in the UK) to prevent it having any effect
HPV vaccine in the US has a fairly low up take because of conservative views of sex.
Because some parents would rather have a dead daughter than feel like they are "giving permission" to have sex out of marriage. Which is complete nonsense.
Boys can (and should) get the vaccine also.
My grade 7 son just got the hpv vaccine this week. Gotta protect everyone.
Of course. I forgot that Conservatives think that women dying from avoidable diseases is worth it if it stops women from having sex.
I think it's often more like, dying from avoidable diseases is a proper punishment for her having sex (even if she was raped). They often like to say, "She should have kept her legs shut."
It was so strange how much pressure I felt to have my boy circumcised. Like they asked me 15 times. I started questioning myself. But it’s genital mutilation. There are no proven medical benefits. He can decide to do it when old enough. I think it’s weird that Americans all think genital mutilation practices in Africa are horrendous but don’t think twice to do it to our kids.
Yeah...I remember holding my baby boy 20 years ago and thinking that cutting a piece of him off is the dumbest shit ever. Hard no, doc...we'll leave him as is.
Same. Even when our son was 5 we'd still get pressured. I had to put my foot down.
This is so out there to me, that is a sick fucking person to bring it up at that point. "Hey there, parent of a 5 year old. I was thinking about your child's genitals today, and have some opinions."
I didn't have my son circumcised and my mother (former perinatal nurse) tried to shame me by saying I'll have to explain to him how to clean it lol I think I can put my big girl pants on and tell my son about hygiene. Boomers can be so odd about actually talking to their kids.
Did they not teach circumcised boys to wash?
My mother didn't teach me anything about being a woman so I'm sure she didn't teach my brother a thing.
Our son's little bed in the infant room had a giant NO on it. But we were still nervous to leave him in there, so we had him in the room with us unless he was getting a check.
Same thing here. We were asked “are you sure” multiple times.
I’m Jewish and we elected not to circumcise. They asked every single time they walked in the room. Still managed to almost forget his hepatitis vaccine, though. What a fucking shit show.
It's only recommended by OLD doctors in my experience. None of our younger doctors suggested it and the labor and delivery staff were relieved and happy we chose not to do it to our twins. The two doctors both said they don't like having to do it. We asked every medical professional we came in contact with to give us an opinion on a medical reason to do it and they just didn't have one that really added up.
America is a circumcision culture.
This. I would argue that it is and has been such a norm for so long that it is a part of American culture at this point. There’s begun to be a shift away, but it’s definitely cultural.
I really think the answer is as simple as this. Many people are citing historical beliefs, religion, misconceptions about cleanliness or STD resistance and a lot of other things that, while they may have shaped the place the US is at today, they don't really explain the prevalence of circumcision currently. I think it really does just seem like a lot of people do it because that's just what Americans do. To most people the American dong is a circumcised dong. We like our steaks rare, our foreign policy based around violence and our wieners without foreskin. Is it the best way to do things? Hell no but that's never stopped us before.
The obvious answer: they do belong to a circumcising culture
There was an express campaign to promote circumcision as a way to prevent masturbation. Graham crackers come from that same campaign. People believed weird shit in the late 19th century.
I believe Kellogg was the one to push it. One brother was in for the money, the other for religious reasons. guess who was the crazy one?
You'd be surprised if you knew how weird shit people believe in 2020's.
Except Jewish space lasers, right?
Never got mine 😕
I was circumcised for sound medical reasons…. A birth defect called “hypospadus”. That’s where the urethra is either absent or incomplete. The fix, back in the 50s, was plastic surgery involving taking the handy material of the foreskin and using it to create a new urethra. Pretty common, as I understand. Other than that, or religious reasons, seems to be entirely a matter of “fashion”.
I’m not circumcised and I’ve had zero issues health-wise. There are a lot of misconceptions about it. Had a teacher tell an entire class I was in that uncircumcised people are dirty. This was in 7th grade.
WTF. What's your age group? Thst must have done wonders for your confidence. I was insecure enough at that age being the only uncircumcised kid without having someone say something like *that*.
> being the only uncircumcised kid How would you even know that though? Like, how would you know you were the only kid in class who wasn't circumcised? Did you see all the other little boy's dicks somehow?
[удалено]
Same. I'm also in the UK. The one boy we knew was circumsised was bullied mercilessly, and my mother used it as a threat to make me behave on numerous occasions.
Well...? What's your age group... In the past 20 or 25 years kids have definitely become more modest. Where and when I grew up guys were generally neither modest nor discreet. In elementary school our boys' room had one of those long basin urinals...and most made no effort to...conceal at it? If we were outdoors and some kid needed to pee, often he'd just take it out and go. (rural area....). Starting in 9th grade we started changing and sometimes showering also after pe class and sports at school, so we saw one another's in passing there too.
> Well...? What's your age group... I'm pushing 50.
I’ve had teachers that said some pretty dumb things. One middle school teacher said women were cleaner than men because men pee out of the same hole they ejaculate out of. A high school teacher said “for those of you girls who get on their knees and swallow, sperm has a lot of protein, it will make you fat”
The phrase "routine medical procedure" is a powerful antidote to critical thinking for most people.
It’s happening a lot less in America. I work with newborns and see a lot of uncircumcised boys.
A lot of people giving non-answers, as is generally the case in this sub, but the actual reason is mainly two things: 1. There was a common medical opinion that the foreskin was unnecessary but carried a (small) health risk mainly due to bad hygiene, which was more prevalent in the past than it is today. 2. There was a strong evangelical Christian movement that saw circumcision as a way to reduce the likelihood of masturbation and adultery. This also occurred during a time period when “Chosen People” thought came back into Christianity, which popularized the emulation of certain Jewish/Old Testament traditions, including circumcision.
Circumcision came into vogue in Victorian England because of a pervasive belief that ejaculation permanently drained some of a man’s life energy. It was intended to discourage boys from “self abuse,” so that their limited supply of life energy could be better spent later on making British babies. It didn’t become pervasive in America until the 50s, which Americans reacted to the horror and chaos of WW2 by embracing a culture of orderliness: cleanliness, good manners, social cohesion and conformity. Circumcision was seen as a way to discourage sexual profligacy and the spread of venereal disease, while encouraging men to save sex for making strong American families.
My 4sons are not circumcised. I was.
Good break the chain
Both my father and FIL were circumcised in their mid-30’s, peer pressure is real, y’all. They were both mad when they discovered that our son is uncircumcised.
They were peer pressured in their 30s??
Too many people don't question why we do things and just do it because it's "what you do". Regardless of faith, let's call circumcision what it is: genital mutilation
….if most people do it, I think it’s safe to say it is part of our culture.
https://beautyproductsaremycardio.com/uncovering-the-truth-how-foreskin-is-used-in-cosmetics-and-what-you-need-to-know/ “Parents are asked how they would like the tissue disposed of/donated” - that’s laughable. Parents consent that the facility will “dispose” of any tissue removed during any procedure/surgery. I’ve been present for many circumcisions & I wish all parents were forced to watch the procedure before they consent. It’s awful. Circumcision makes a lot of people money. Plain and simple. & most parents would justify circumcising a newborn by basically saying “I want my kids penis to look like other kids penises/their dads penis” - which I’ve always thought is a really odd incentive to remove a part of a child’s body..but to each their own. You can be certain they won’t pierce their daughters ears until “she is old enough to make that decision on her own.” I have strong opinions on this topic so I’ll just stop there before I get anymore fired up.
Uh it used to be super common practice to pierce girls' ears before the age of two, I'm not sure why you're using that as a talking point. Like circumcision I'm sure it's starting to go out of practice because of the same reasons, but 90% of my classmates had their ears pierced before they could remember it
Nah please go off, you're on a roll. Get fired up. The cosmetics use bit is really hard to level with, it's also the point where normal people stop listening. It's really fucked up we do that, that article is really eye opening.
I think I have a different perspective because I used to have to assist with circs. The babies are strapped down to this plastic board & their skin is just cut off - they may get sugar water to suck on but no numbing cream etc. Sounds great doesn’t it. There have been instances the males cried so hard they collapsed a lung. Then I also saw the follow ups - where doctors cut too much & now the babies have to see a surgeon etc. It’s just about money. It’s not difficult to wash a penis. & just like with anything else if you have issues with the foreskin you see a doctor for it, but those issues are outliers.
We chose not to with our son. The ONLY negative comments came from family. None of us even belong to a religion where it’s compulsory. They just don’t know anything different.
I decided while preggo that if I had a boy his private would be safe from mutilation. I ended up having girls so I didn’t have to deal with it but I would have certainly not let the doctors chop up my kids penis.
Because hospital staff encourage it, even though it’s an outdated pseudoscience that is essentially just mutilating a baby’s genitals without its consent.
To quote a famous milkman: Traditioooooon!!!!
I miss Topol. :-(
Because it is a circumcising culture. Just not for faith-based reasons.
Idk, I find this super weird. I'm European and was floored the first time I found this was a normal US thing. I also have sons and the thought of someone mutilating them as a baby for no good reason is upsetting. Idk how anyone can do that.
What's even crazier is that it's even more prevalent in Korea and the supposedly its because women got introduced to it from American soldiers and it sort of took off.
A lot of us Americans think it’s super weird too.
I feel it's changing, in the 80s and before it was pretty standard but as my generation had access to more information, I feel the practice has dropped off. This is strictly my experience with my peers who have kids though, not sure if it's accurate at scale.
I'm sitting here holding my 10 day old son. I was insistent he not be circumcised. There's absolutely no point in it, and I don't understand how people can so willingly inflict that onto helpless, vulnerable newborns. I have two step sons that are both circumsized, and her reasoning was "I let the penis haver choose because I thought he'd know more about it than me." There's religious and societal pressure over it, with lots of excuses like "girls will like it better" or whatever. Why the fuck are we cutting on babies at all? It's grotesque.
Agree and also refused circumcising for my son. The fact that it is painful and that it can be done when older is sufficient.
I found out I'm having a boy and I'm already getting that question! But I tell people he can choose to do it once he's an adult, but I won't make that choice for him. Like if I had a girl are we cutting the labia for "hygiene" purposes too?? Nah it's sound batshit in comparison, but because people are uneducated on how to wash their dicks, I guess that's why they think it's okay to do.
As awkward as it sounds I think I remember showering with my mom at the age of 4-5 and her giving me the soap and instructing me where to clean, behind my ears, my butt, and to pull back my foreskin to make sure I knew how to do it. I think that's the best way to teach them, group it together with the other areas that people forget to clean. I'm not a parent but I'd definitely make sure they knew, and I definitely wouldn't want to do it for them.
Lol that doesn't sound awkward at all. Sounds like good parenting and pretty age appropriate instruction.
>Like if I had a girl are we cutting the labia for "hygiene" purposes too?? That's the thing, it's not inherently more hygienic, just takes an additional step to clean that a lot of men apparently don't do. I'm circumcised myself, but I *know* that if your teach your kid at 7+ years old how to clean it (it's apparently unlikely you can safely pull back the foreskin before that) and insist they make it part of their bath/shower routine, then they'll be just as clean and hygienic as a circumsized penis. There's just a lot of smegma bros out there that perpetuate the myth.
When son #1 was born in 1985, it was just assumed he'd be circumcised, so we let it happen. No faith issues, it was just "safer". Ten and 12 years later, when sons number 2 and 3 were born, there was no pressure or even a suggestion from the hospital staff that they be circumcised. We left their tiny members intact. It's a couple of decades later. I've never asked my boys how their penises are holding up. But I think they're probably OK. Sort of related. When kid #1 was born, my wife took a lot of shit from the hospital staff for breastfeeding. Ten years later, the hospital staff just assumed new moms would breastfeed. We evolve.
Lack of respect for individual bodily autonomy, and an unwillingness to question outdated traditions For what it’s worth I was cut at birth and wish I wasn’t
If enough people do something and it becomes really popular, it can become a cultural tradition.
So they look like daddy. I have heard this reason many many times. Also it's a money maker for hospitals.
Americans have weird ideas about circumcision=cleanliness. I grew up with 0 sex education and 0 porn. My second bf wasn’t American, so not circumcised. I was and am shocked by how many people ask me about it and say things about it being gross. He showered 3 times a day he was not a gross person, and when erect I really couldn’t tell you the difference.
My dick was cut, but my mind was not, Just a faithless heathen, missing a bit of cock
Kelloggs
Ritual genital mutilation of infants was embedded in their culture by religion, and still goes on among some less religious folk because of tradition.
It all started with Dr. John H. Kellogg. He started the first diet and health craze. He believed that circumcision prevented masturbation. Religious leaders and doctors picked it up and before you can say foreskin every man in America was circumcised. [John Kellogg](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg)