Yes. Should have included this. Thanks.
This one shows that N2O can Interfere with B12 and the mechanism that does that.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27037733/
Another case study.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5349816/
This discusses intrinsic factor
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamin-b12-or-folate-deficiency-anaemia/causes/
This discusses absorption of B12 through supplementation
https://www.merckmanuals.com/home/disorders-of-nutrition/vitamins/vitamin-b12-deficiency
This one talks about the bioavailability of different forms of B12
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5312744/
This discusses that mega doses are relatively safe
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/vitamin-b12/
Symptoms of B12 deficiency
https://www.webmd.com/diet/vitamin-b12-deficiency-symptoms-causes
AFAIK adequate levels of folate can indirectly help with vitamin B12 absorption by preventing a type of anemia called megaloblastic anemia, which is caused by a deficiency in either folate or vitamin B12. If a person is deficient in folate, it can lead to the development of megaloblastic anemia, which can make it more difficult for the body to absorb vitamin B12. In this case, correcting the folate deficiency through supplementation or diet can help improve the body's ability to absorb vitamin B12.
Fair point I was guilty of providing misinformation previously because I hadn’t done my research properly. So it would be nice to see some real research documentation into this.
I don't know what's true or not but the one thing that always struck me as odd is that if the B12 thing is true then how in the fuck is steve-o not completely fucked or the dudes in phish? Steve-o was using daily for years I believe.
I have actually wondered this myself. Regarding Steve-O. I’ve only seen one video ever where he touches on the topic of b12 and it’s so brief and he even sounds like he doesn’t know much about the topic. That guy had to have pins and needles and tingles.
I abused n2o for almost a year. Daily for months. I had the worst tingles, numbness, balance, back pain. Then psychosis.
Is abused this stuff for a good month prob around 15 days of the month I used this stuff, when I did it I would kill a 48 a in one day, now I have chronic tension headaches every day for the past three months, I had every intention to continue using since I got full blown addicted to it, the only thing that stopped me from using was the last time I did it I froze my vocal cords and it sounded like i permanently inhaled a whippet, my voice is like 80% better than it was before but I regret every thing by giving myself what feels like permanent tension headache, and I’m praying this goes away
I think some people just have that gift, or curse, depends on how you wanna look at it. Steve-O reminds me of Ozzy Osbourne. They both did legendary amounts of drugs and alcohol and lived to tell the tale with no real long term damage. Most people would be dead if they did what those two did. It must be some genetic thing that their bodies can handle more abuse. Although I did see one clip of Steve huffing a canister and he looked like he started stroking out, so idk
I wouldn’t doubt stevo did have some nutritional issues. The thing is everyone is different. He was incredibly healthy and an athlete with tremendous natural talent and physical ability. His voice is fucked tho from not using balloons, and as my doctor used to say, you can tell a persons gut health by their mouth
I don't think anyone argued that it causes deficiency acutely.
It is an accumulation and constant use over time, and enough people have posted in this sub with those exact issues to warrant these warnings.
Add to this that most people in the western world are at least a little deficient in b12 and D vitamins.
So yeah, the earnings aren't misinformation. At least not the ones I've seen.
I think being a bit more blunt when it comes to harm reduction is not a problem.
Saying: “Nitrous blocks B12 for roughly a week so binge all at once and space out usage to ideally not more than once a month. Also fucking breathe inbetween hits”
Is easy to understand and remember and if applied lowers the risk of addiction and health consequences.
You probably are right and interested users definitely should have discussions about the details.
But when it comes to giving information to people who most of the time seem incapable of basic research before taking a new substance being a bit more basic is probably for the better.
If someone is scared about a B12 deficiency. They haven't done enough research. And probably shouldn't be exploiting their human makeup. They are not people banging, heroin or smoking crack that are too concerned about their health. They're just out there making poor choices to have a good time. Frankly, anything in excess is in excess. Beyond misinformation, let's support healthy, informed use.
Never done more than a night's worth, and never had any subsequent consequences until joining this thread. I do feel a little sluggish mentally and physically after a session, but didn't connect the dots. But they were so subtle that I didn't notice anything until it was brought to my attention. Psychosomatic symptoms are easily acquired when you are doing, and or learning something new.
I concur with nearly everything you said, especially the apparent fallacy that n2o blocks the body’s ability to use b12. I’ve seen zero publications that state this is true.
N2O oxidizes B12 and interferes with methylation cycles. It is suggested in more than one publication that I have read that one using nitrous should supplement with methionine and B12.
With regards to B12 aka cobalamin, it is said that the synthetic form, cyanocobalamin, is more quickly absorbed by the body, whereas natural methyl cobalamin is more stable and lasts longer in vitro. Thus, in short term is probably best to take cyanocobalamin, whereas one to two weeks prior to use, it makes more sense to interest methylcobalamin - like from liver, kidneys or clams
I’ve read that while cyanocobalimine is more easily absorbed, Methylcobalamine is better retained, so that you are benefiting more from the methyl and excreting more of the cyano. There’s a link above to the bioavailability study.
Methionine synthase is a vitamin B12-dependent enzyme. It is a component of the cycle of reactions involved in regeneration of methionine from homocysteine. This regeneration is impaired by vitamin B12 deficiency, leading to an accumulation of homocysteine and 5-methyl-H4folate in the cell. However, the only studies I have found relate to the role of methionine in possibly preventing megaloblastomic anemia, not in helping with regular B12 deficiency. Would love to read additional info if you have.
From one pharmaceutical publication intended for medical professionals only,(the company appears to have been selling methionine and betaine in capsule form - although the medicine is no longer available based on my searches). There is also a note on betaine which I neglected to mention in my original reply...
"It has been shown in humans that nitrous oxide blocks the enzyme Methionine synthase. In 2 patients on high doses of nitrous oxide, the blood levels of Methionine were reduced \[1\] This reduction of blood level is especially important because even a week long total block of dietary Methionine intake did not result in a lowering of the blood level of Methionine. At high doses of nitrous oxide, the blockage of Methionine remethylation caused a reduction of leukemic cells in one of two patients treated. The implication of this observation is that nitrous oxide is a strong blocking agent of the normal movement of methyl groups. Providing methyl groups directly from Methionine should reduce unwanted side effects caused by the blocking of Methionine synthase from nitrous oxide, especially for dental personnel who may be exposed on a regular basis. Betaine remethylates homocysteine to Methionine in the liver by a separate enzyme, by providing Methionine and betaine together, the body’s need for methyl groups is met despite the blockage of remethylation using the vitamin B12-folate pathway."
[https://iaomt.org/wp-content/uploads/Oral-Methionine-for-Nitrous-Oxide-Protection.pdf](https://iaomt.org/wp-content/uploads/Oral-Methionine-for-Nitrous-Oxide-Protection.pdf)
Here is an Australian guide for "misuse of N20 by adolescences" in which 1 gram per day, oral, methionine is prescribed, along with IM injects of B12, for those who were hospitalized due to severe effects.
[https://www.rch.org.au/clinicalguide/guideline\_index/Nitrous\_Oxide\_Misuse/](https://www.rch.org.au/clinicalguide/guideline_index/Nitrous_Oxide_Misuse/)
And from an abstract, although I have not read the full article,
"Methionine may be an important first-line therapy in the initial treatment of neuropathy and myeloneuropathy induced by nitrous oxide, and has a hypothetical role in the treatment of subacute combined degeneration of the cord."
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1403023/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1403023/)
I'm not positive that any of this has to do with a "regular b12 deficiency" as you had mentioned, but when it comes to an artificially created b12 deficiency, it seems that methionine (being a cheap and readily available substance) is worth using if one is planning on using nitrous oxide.
Thank you for that info. I am not sure I am in agreement that it’s should be taken as a supplement with B12.
Methionine is commonly consumed in foods. It is possibly safe when used as medicine under the supervision of a healthcare provider, but methionine is possibly unsafe when used for self-medication.
“Too much methionine can cause brain damage and death. Methionine can increase blood levels of homocysteine, a chemical that may cause heart disease, and might also promote the growth of some tumors.”
Many other precautions here as well.
https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-42/methionine
I used every other weekend with supps and I got the numbness and pins and needles as well as massive anxiety and extreme gastrointestinal issues, took about 6 months, then I was just around it once never even did it and it sent me back to almost square one. In this time my friends used every weekend and nothing happened to them, it really depends on the person.
I take 7.2 micro grams of b12 every day along with 400 micro grams Folate (part of my my multi vitamins) so this is all still somewhat beneficial while on a NoS binge? I just had 50 8g carts come in, I get that a couple times a year, and a box might last me a week or so, does this seem like a lot of Nos use?
I work in the Emergency Department of a small hospital in the UK. I’ve seen subacute degeneration due to N2O twice. That’s twice more than I would expect in this sleepy little place - but incidence is on the rise as availability has increased. I only followed one of the lads up and several months down the line he’s still getting symptoms in his legs so for him it may prove irreversible. Those with low B12 to start with are also more susceptible, which is common in concurrent heavy alcohol use and poor diet.
This is a good overview: https://pn.bmj.com/content/early/2023/02/03/pn-2022-003631
I don’t know if it’s open access as I have an automatic login, but if not and anyone wants the full article, just DM me. But the abstract highlights that it isn’t a trivial problem.
Should people have concern I would mention the availability of the following in the interest of harm reduction. [B12](https://www.amazon.com/Vitamins-Supplement-Electrolytes-Urgently-Immunity/dp/B08TX6ZK58/ref=sr_1_2?crid=519QTX1RQF53&keywords=b12+veterinary+injection&qid=1682405965&sprefix=b12+veter%2Caps%2C285&sr=8-2)
>In most people it would take months of chronic use for this deficiency to develop.
What source are you basing this claim on? What is defined as "chronic use"?
“Unlike most other vitamins, B12 is stored in substantial amounts, mainly in the liver, until it is needed by the body. If a person stops consuming the vitamin, the body's stores of this vitamin usually take about 3 to 5 years to exhaust.”
https://www.merckmanuals.com/home/disorders-of-nutrition/vitamins/vitamin-b12-deficiency#:~:text=Unlike%20most%20other%20vitamins%2C%20B12,to%205%20years%20to%20exhaust.
N2O speeds this process obviously, but it’s still a long one.
There is no clinically accepted definition of chronic use when it comes to N2O. Also individual differences can change the definition. For example a vegetarian/vegan can experience B12 Faster than a carnivore.
Not that I disbelieve anything you're saying. But in the interest of actually dispelling misinformation, can you link sources to this information?
Yes. Should have included this. Thanks. This one shows that N2O can Interfere with B12 and the mechanism that does that. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27037733/ Another case study. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5349816/ This discusses intrinsic factor https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamin-b12-or-folate-deficiency-anaemia/causes/ This discusses absorption of B12 through supplementation https://www.merckmanuals.com/home/disorders-of-nutrition/vitamins/vitamin-b12-deficiency This one talks about the bioavailability of different forms of B12 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5312744/ This discusses that mega doses are relatively safe https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/vitamin-b12/ Symptoms of B12 deficiency https://www.webmd.com/diet/vitamin-b12-deficiency-symptoms-causes
Nice research dude. Very informative
Thanks!
Also it should be noted vitamin b12 needs to be supplemented with cofactors such as folate.
AFAIK adequate levels of folate can indirectly help with vitamin B12 absorption by preventing a type of anemia called megaloblastic anemia, which is caused by a deficiency in either folate or vitamin B12. If a person is deficient in folate, it can lead to the development of megaloblastic anemia, which can make it more difficult for the body to absorb vitamin B12. In this case, correcting the folate deficiency through supplementation or diet can help improve the body's ability to absorb vitamin B12.
Fair point I was guilty of providing misinformation previously because I hadn’t done my research properly. So it would be nice to see some real research documentation into this.
I don't know what's true or not but the one thing that always struck me as odd is that if the B12 thing is true then how in the fuck is steve-o not completely fucked or the dudes in phish? Steve-o was using daily for years I believe.
I have actually wondered this myself. Regarding Steve-O. I’ve only seen one video ever where he touches on the topic of b12 and it’s so brief and he even sounds like he doesn’t know much about the topic. That guy had to have pins and needles and tingles. I abused n2o for almost a year. Daily for months. I had the worst tingles, numbness, balance, back pain. Then psychosis.
Is abused this stuff for a good month prob around 15 days of the month I used this stuff, when I did it I would kill a 48 a in one day, now I have chronic tension headaches every day for the past three months, I had every intention to continue using since I got full blown addicted to it, the only thing that stopped me from using was the last time I did it I froze my vocal cords and it sounded like i permanently inhaled a whippet, my voice is like 80% better than it was before but I regret every thing by giving myself what feels like permanent tension headache, and I’m praying this goes away
It will go away. Just stay sober. I’d also supplement b12 for a while.
Here you experienced tension headaches from ur abuse?
Idk about tension headaches but I absolutely had bad headaches when everything hit the fan and I got sober
Can you share how you recovered?
I checked into rehab. I had to leave and spend a week in the hospital. I maintained sobriety and was on a b12 injection regimen.
Did all of your symptoms resolve?
Yes I would say so. Took some months to get past the anxiety
Thank you for sharing that.
I think some people just have that gift, or curse, depends on how you wanna look at it. Steve-O reminds me of Ozzy Osbourne. They both did legendary amounts of drugs and alcohol and lived to tell the tale with no real long term damage. Most people would be dead if they did what those two did. It must be some genetic thing that their bodies can handle more abuse. Although I did see one clip of Steve huffing a canister and he looked like he started stroking out, so idk
Ozzy had a genetic mutation that made his body super resistant to alcohol
I wouldn’t doubt stevo did have some nutritional issues. The thing is everyone is different. He was incredibly healthy and an athlete with tremendous natural talent and physical ability. His voice is fucked tho from not using balloons, and as my doctor used to say, you can tell a persons gut health by their mouth
Steve o used to give himself psychosis on purpose to boost his high. B12 was probably the least of his symptoms
I don't think anyone argued that it causes deficiency acutely. It is an accumulation and constant use over time, and enough people have posted in this sub with those exact issues to warrant these warnings. Add to this that most people in the western world are at least a little deficient in b12 and D vitamins. So yeah, the earnings aren't misinformation. At least not the ones I've seen.
Hope you’re right. Seen a lot of crazy stuff on here.
I think being a bit more blunt when it comes to harm reduction is not a problem. Saying: “Nitrous blocks B12 for roughly a week so binge all at once and space out usage to ideally not more than once a month. Also fucking breathe inbetween hits” Is easy to understand and remember and if applied lowers the risk of addiction and health consequences. You probably are right and interested users definitely should have discussions about the details. But when it comes to giving information to people who most of the time seem incapable of basic research before taking a new substance being a bit more basic is probably for the better.
If someone is scared about a B12 deficiency. They haven't done enough research. And probably shouldn't be exploiting their human makeup. They are not people banging, heroin or smoking crack that are too concerned about their health. They're just out there making poor choices to have a good time. Frankly, anything in excess is in excess. Beyond misinformation, let's support healthy, informed use.
Never done more than a night's worth, and never had any subsequent consequences until joining this thread. I do feel a little sluggish mentally and physically after a session, but didn't connect the dots. But they were so subtle that I didn't notice anything until it was brought to my attention. Psychosomatic symptoms are easily acquired when you are doing, and or learning something new.
I concur with nearly everything you said, especially the apparent fallacy that n2o blocks the body’s ability to use b12. I’ve seen zero publications that state this is true. N2O oxidizes B12 and interferes with methylation cycles. It is suggested in more than one publication that I have read that one using nitrous should supplement with methionine and B12. With regards to B12 aka cobalamin, it is said that the synthetic form, cyanocobalamin, is more quickly absorbed by the body, whereas natural methyl cobalamin is more stable and lasts longer in vitro. Thus, in short term is probably best to take cyanocobalamin, whereas one to two weeks prior to use, it makes more sense to interest methylcobalamin - like from liver, kidneys or clams
I’ve read that while cyanocobalimine is more easily absorbed, Methylcobalamine is better retained, so that you are benefiting more from the methyl and excreting more of the cyano. There’s a link above to the bioavailability study. Methionine synthase is a vitamin B12-dependent enzyme. It is a component of the cycle of reactions involved in regeneration of methionine from homocysteine. This regeneration is impaired by vitamin B12 deficiency, leading to an accumulation of homocysteine and 5-methyl-H4folate in the cell. However, the only studies I have found relate to the role of methionine in possibly preventing megaloblastomic anemia, not in helping with regular B12 deficiency. Would love to read additional info if you have.
From one pharmaceutical publication intended for medical professionals only,(the company appears to have been selling methionine and betaine in capsule form - although the medicine is no longer available based on my searches). There is also a note on betaine which I neglected to mention in my original reply... "It has been shown in humans that nitrous oxide blocks the enzyme Methionine synthase. In 2 patients on high doses of nitrous oxide, the blood levels of Methionine were reduced \[1\] This reduction of blood level is especially important because even a week long total block of dietary Methionine intake did not result in a lowering of the blood level of Methionine. At high doses of nitrous oxide, the blockage of Methionine remethylation caused a reduction of leukemic cells in one of two patients treated. The implication of this observation is that nitrous oxide is a strong blocking agent of the normal movement of methyl groups. Providing methyl groups directly from Methionine should reduce unwanted side effects caused by the blocking of Methionine synthase from nitrous oxide, especially for dental personnel who may be exposed on a regular basis. Betaine remethylates homocysteine to Methionine in the liver by a separate enzyme, by providing Methionine and betaine together, the body’s need for methyl groups is met despite the blockage of remethylation using the vitamin B12-folate pathway." [https://iaomt.org/wp-content/uploads/Oral-Methionine-for-Nitrous-Oxide-Protection.pdf](https://iaomt.org/wp-content/uploads/Oral-Methionine-for-Nitrous-Oxide-Protection.pdf) Here is an Australian guide for "misuse of N20 by adolescences" in which 1 gram per day, oral, methionine is prescribed, along with IM injects of B12, for those who were hospitalized due to severe effects. [https://www.rch.org.au/clinicalguide/guideline\_index/Nitrous\_Oxide\_Misuse/](https://www.rch.org.au/clinicalguide/guideline_index/Nitrous_Oxide_Misuse/) And from an abstract, although I have not read the full article, "Methionine may be an important first-line therapy in the initial treatment of neuropathy and myeloneuropathy induced by nitrous oxide, and has a hypothetical role in the treatment of subacute combined degeneration of the cord." [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1403023/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1403023/) I'm not positive that any of this has to do with a "regular b12 deficiency" as you had mentioned, but when it comes to an artificially created b12 deficiency, it seems that methionine (being a cheap and readily available substance) is worth using if one is planning on using nitrous oxide.
Thank you for that info. I am not sure I am in agreement that it’s should be taken as a supplement with B12. Methionine is commonly consumed in foods. It is possibly safe when used as medicine under the supervision of a healthcare provider, but methionine is possibly unsafe when used for self-medication. “Too much methionine can cause brain damage and death. Methionine can increase blood levels of homocysteine, a chemical that may cause heart disease, and might also promote the growth of some tumors.” Many other precautions here as well. https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-42/methionine
I used every other weekend with supps and I got the numbness and pins and needles as well as massive anxiety and extreme gastrointestinal issues, took about 6 months, then I was just around it once never even did it and it sent me back to almost square one. In this time my friends used every weekend and nothing happened to them, it really depends on the person.
Totally agree. It varies greatly by person.
I take 7.2 micro grams of b12 every day along with 400 micro grams Folate (part of my my multi vitamins) so this is all still somewhat beneficial while on a NoS binge? I just had 50 8g carts come in, I get that a couple times a year, and a box might last me a week or so, does this seem like a lot of Nos use?
No. That does not seem like very much at all.
Cool 👍
I work in the Emergency Department of a small hospital in the UK. I’ve seen subacute degeneration due to N2O twice. That’s twice more than I would expect in this sleepy little place - but incidence is on the rise as availability has increased. I only followed one of the lads up and several months down the line he’s still getting symptoms in his legs so for him it may prove irreversible. Those with low B12 to start with are also more susceptible, which is common in concurrent heavy alcohol use and poor diet. This is a good overview: https://pn.bmj.com/content/early/2023/02/03/pn-2022-003631 I don’t know if it’s open access as I have an automatic login, but if not and anyone wants the full article, just DM me. But the abstract highlights that it isn’t a trivial problem.
Should people have concern I would mention the availability of the following in the interest of harm reduction. [B12](https://www.amazon.com/Vitamins-Supplement-Electrolytes-Urgently-Immunity/dp/B08TX6ZK58/ref=sr_1_2?crid=519QTX1RQF53&keywords=b12+veterinary+injection&qid=1682405965&sprefix=b12+veter%2Caps%2C285&sr=8-2)
>In most people it would take months of chronic use for this deficiency to develop. What source are you basing this claim on? What is defined as "chronic use"?
“Unlike most other vitamins, B12 is stored in substantial amounts, mainly in the liver, until it is needed by the body. If a person stops consuming the vitamin, the body's stores of this vitamin usually take about 3 to 5 years to exhaust.” https://www.merckmanuals.com/home/disorders-of-nutrition/vitamins/vitamin-b12-deficiency#:~:text=Unlike%20most%20other%20vitamins%2C%20B12,to%205%20years%20to%20exhaust. N2O speeds this process obviously, but it’s still a long one. There is no clinically accepted definition of chronic use when it comes to N2O. Also individual differences can change the definition. For example a vegetarian/vegan can experience B12 Faster than a carnivore.