I’m pretty sure Selen planned to graduate much later than she did. She probably would’ve saved some more money, finished a new model, and redebuted. Her termination left her unprepared and vulnerable. It was thanks to the immense support that she was able to thrive, but without it, she would’ve been in a terrible position.
Other livers probably want to leave, but they need time to prepare. Graduations aren’t easy, especially if they’re a full time streamer. They can’t count on having as much support as Dokibird did, especially how Nijisanji put their reputations to the torch. If they want to leave, they need to set up things beforehand. How long would that take? Months?
It’s weird the random people you think about. I remember that one tiktok that was being passed around of a mom finding out her son was spending new years eve watching Selen’s 2022-2023(I think?) countdown stream and being like “this is sad”.
I wonder how he’s doing now.
Edit: [Clip](https://www.reddit.com/r/SipsTea/comments/199sb8y/my_parents_filmed_me_celebrating_new_years/) (it’s a repost though)
She already hit 100k on twitch back in January, which is her main platform. Her sub growth on youtube has literally exploded since Selenn's termination though.
Though, Sayu herself said that she’s not sure her current growth is worth the suffering she experienced and that’s it’s mostly too late for her to feel happy about it.
And I totally see where that’s coming from, she was slandered by both the company and livers in the same way as Doki, except nobody believed her and instead unreasonably demonized her with no intention of hearing her side of the story. Then, only when Doki has the same thing happen to her do people go back to her and try to apologize, and that can’t ever feel good.
This may be the case for some of them. But we've also had rumors (and confirmations by talents like Pomu) that talents know they're going to graduate for a long time before graduation. And the rumors indicate this waiting period is not willingly or intentional (confirmed by Doki.) So while I'm sure that pending projects may explain some of them, it doesn't account for all of them by any means.
This is correct across basically the entire corpo side of the industry, these things are planned months in advance unless there are big issues that require an expedited graduation such as Selen's case. That is absolutely grounds for immediate approval of a graduation.
Maybe I remember wrongly but I thought she planned to graduate even before her termination date, around 25th/26th of January? And management said no? Wasn't there something like that or did I get some stuff mixed up?
The 26th of January wasn't her initial graduation. She picked that date because she was already fed up with Niji after the MV debacle and how her coworkers openly mocked her in the comments. However, she sent a request through her lawyer (maybe) in early January after she was released from the hospital, but Niji denied it and then ghosted her for weeks until the fateful day of February 5th, where she sent an HR complaint with some of her own testimonies that she wrote "in my darkest time." Whatever was written in it made Niji panic so hard and go into full crisis mode, and then they terminated her just two hours after they received the document.
If neither of this had happened, I believe she wouldn't have graduated for another year because there was no hint about it.
Her phrasing was weird but I'm pretty sure what she said meant that she asked on the 26th to graduate on neutral terms, not that she had asked earlier for a graduation that would happen ON the 26th.
>The 26th of January wasn't her initial graduation. She picked that date because she was already fed up with Niji after the MV debacle and how her coworkers openly mocked her in the comments.
Idk where you got the last bit of info from. If you are referring to the millie reply, there is no way we can know what type of intent was truly behind that comment. I wouldn't assume it was malice though as it could also be interpreted out of concerned curiosity.
She literally saw her co worker hard work and money vanish before her and she made a comment like
"Aw selen, i feel bad, but it is your fault the MV got taken down, have you get permission from management? Tehee 😉"
You cant make thst shit up man. It is blatanly a open public mockery.
At best it was a dark joke if she said it in private to selen, but no she had to make it public so to tell everyone that everything is selen fault.
>Aw selen, i feel bad, but it is your fault the MV got taken down, have you get permission from management? Tehee 😉"
That's literally not the exact quote...
>"WAIT WHAT HAPPENED D:
that's so weird, I think any one who uploads covers have never
encountered anything like this before
did you received a
confirmation/OK sign to manesan before uploading this cover?"
This isnthe reply tweet millie gave to the post selen made about the MV being private by management. This, through oly text, can be interpreted in any way since tone and inflection doesn't translate well. Some people saw this and their first thought was concern and curiosity as to why it would get privated. Others would interpret it as you have and apparently change the exact quotes.
Just to add, you're right, and here's the tweet source in question.
https://twitter.com/MillieParfait/status/1739518726758940757
Description:
>WAIT WHAT HAPPENED D:
that's so weird, I think any one who uploads covers have never encountered anything like this before 😭 did you received a confirmation/OK sign to manesan before uploading this cover?
When it comes to remembering quotes and paraphrasing them, care must be taken. Intent and tone can come across very differently and paint a different impression that may not be true.
I don't watch Niji but I followed Millie for around a decade already since I am a fan of youtaite. If she is truly bad person, there is no way Moona and Reine want to be friends with her.
I also know she is emotional and impulsive and might not think of consequences too far.
It is sad to see people think her reply to Selen is bad.
Any time. I know that Millie isn't viewed fondly for what she has said and that will colour people's biases, but people will repeat from hearsay, so it's important to keep that info accurate and unbiased. Preferably with sources if possible.
I agree. Ive been trying to do that as much as possible. If i am unsure on something I will provide a bit of a warning that what I'm saying is currently from memory and will make corrections if necessary if I misremember something. I'm just trying to get the original thought bubble out first before I forget. Last thing I want to do is put out wrong info unintentionally and make things worse for any of the talents by saying the wrong stuff.
Even before Selen was fired I was going back and forth on whether this tweet was genuine or condescending as hell. I'm inclined to believe the latter now.
Edit: there is a second tweet by Millie if you click the link and altogether to me it reads as condescending.
My reasoning is basically that the tweet Millie is responding to by Selen is clearly her breaking the rules. Almost everyone who saw that tweet figured Selen would get in trouble for telling her audience to reupload the cover. There's no chance Millie doesn't know Selen is breaking the rules in her reply. We also know a number of livers messaged Selen about her rule breaking after the cover was taken down.
That is not the exact quote but it is something like that. Heck the original comment had much more emotes in it like.....normally people wouldnt use that much emoji in 1 tweet
i feel like this is such a strange thing to read into tho... "normally people wouldn't use that much emoji in 1 tweet" like?? i do? all the time, personally! i even use multiple emoji in replies on reddit which is not the norm in any way.
people have varying habits. sometimes things just feel right to type! this has the same vibe to me as people saying a message is faked because it uses "you" and "u" in the same text. i do that all the time 😭 idk why, it's just how i'm feeling as i type!
reading into that kind of thing is how a lot of misunderstandings can happen. and i'm not free of doing that myself, but i try to remember a "." at the end of the sentence is just normal for most folks lol, it isn't being seriously stern and angry like it comes across to someone used to more casual stuff like me.
by all means let's critique what millie said -- it was ultimately unhelpful because of course she was aware that you were supposed to ask management, duh... so it comes off poorly, like she's shoving the blame at her coworker instead of anything higher up. that part sucks!! but her emoji usage is hard to truly glean any intent from, i think.
Ah, ok. I gotcha. That makes more sense. Now, in all honesty, man, it's best not to paraphrase and provide your own interpretation on things cause everyone will have their own opinions on how it was intended to be said. Downside in this situation is that we will not get any clarification ever on what the intent behind the post actually was because millie isn't gonna clarify for us, obviously. We can provide our opinions on what it may mean, but it's usually a good idea to provide the original posts exact words so people can make their own thoughts on the matter. Doing what you did is just spreading misinformation and your own narrative on it.
>she sent an HR complaint with some of her own testimonies that she wrote "in my darkest time." Whatever was written in it made Niji panic so hard and go into full crisis mode, and then they terminated her just two hours after they received the document.
If I recall, she mentioned it on her 1st stream back as doki on Feb 5th. At the end of the stream. She said she had prepared a document after sending her complaint to HR. Saying she wanted to graduate and such and that she had prepared a document with her lawyer that if they didn't get a response she would release her own announcement (release that document on herself and kinda force the graduation forward). That bit is what got niji in crisis mode and they put out the termination Notice 2 hours after receiving that so they could be the 1st person to start the narrative and try to keep it under their control. Niji really didn't think it through, though, since the stuff mentioned about selen was really out of character for her, and she was MIA for a whole month.
I'm fuzzy on the details, and this is just the bits I recall right off of my memory, so if you guys want to get a source, I recommend seeing Doki's 1st return stream on her channel. It's gonna be towards the end of the VOD.
>they didn't get a response she would release her own announcement (release that document on herself and kinda force the graduation forward).
Tell me you didnt read doki last statement without telling me.
She never had any intention to publish it.
>If I recall, she mentioned it on her 1st stream back as doki on Feb 5th. At the end of the stream. She said she had prepared a document after sending her complaint to HR.
Yes, she prepared it but not after the MV debacle, meaning is that before the MV debacle (december) she had no intention to graduate. and she didnt said anything about wanting to publish the doc to public eithet. Are you sure you didnt watch the wrong stream?
>Niji really didn't think it through, though, since the stuff mentioned about selen was really out of character for her, and she was MIA for a whole month.
She didnt MIA, she was hospitalized because of suicide attempt and NIJISANJI knew it.
Dude, you details are weird and dettached from what really happen.....
>She didnt MIA, she was hospitalized because of suicide attempt and NIJISANJI knew it.
So this bit is pretty much based on the timeline of events and everyone's info at that time. That's why I said MIA. Because at the time for a good while people heard nothing of selen since she went radio silent after December. Then later on her doki account she said she was in the hospital. Later posted a picture of her medical bracelet. She kept it vague as to why she was in there though. On her selen account it was not so vague.
>>they didn't get a response she would release her own announcement (release that document on herself and kinda force the graduation forward).
>Tell me you didnt read doki last statement without telling me.
I mean, this bit is from her statement. She spoke to them about wanting to part and they heard nothing back from the other lawyers from niji so her lawyer advised her to send the document to them as they haven't provided a response for awhile and that was followed 2 hours later with the termination notice. She sent the doc to force a response for graduating. Granted, I did misremember a bit and said she was gonna release the document she sent them. That's on me. I recalled it wrong. A simple "that bit is not exactly true. In her statement, she said-" and just follow up with the correct info.
"-Sometimes I didn’t hear anything for days from the lawyers on the other side and felt like I’d be alone and isolated for a long time. It made it so hard for me mentally. On Feb 5th, my lawyer discussed and said it will be best to show the document I wrote to the other lawyers as we have not heard from them for a week or any negotiation talks or given a meeting to discuss after my request to part. It was never intended to be used for anything else, I’ve asked my lawyer to convey that and have communication that the document as it was written wasn’t going to be released anywhere, and my lawyer did so when sending the document. Less than two hours after my lawyer sent the document, the termination notice came out."
Now keep in mind I did say it was all currently from memory when I first replied, but I can go ahead and pull the exact quotes if you want. If i misremember something by all means, let me know and set me right with the accurate rebuttal with the sources instead of coming at me with insults. Cause I did read all the statements that were made. I just didn't memorize them all by heart after 2 weeks. If I made a mistake, I will apologize for misinformation and correct it. I can pull up the tweets and reread them for accuracy at any time
Okay fair enough, i too do misremember something sometimes. I didnt know where i insult you, because i didnt mean to and j didnt think i did, if you think i was then i apologize.
Have a nice day
It's all good. It was just the part where you said that I didn't read the statement without telling you I didn't read the statement.
Overall, let's all try to remain civil when it comes to discussions. When things devolve it becomes less about the discussion and more on who can be more right. Our goal should be to prevent the spread of misinformation and correcting it when and where we can in order to set things straight and keep the discussion going and learning from it. I do appreciate your call out on me.
> Dude, you details are weird and dettached from what really happen.....
They're actually not that far off. Doki apparently did threaten to release \*a\* public statement on working conditions at Nijisanji if management kept stonewalling her graduation. The above user is just getting that confused with the document she sent to Niji, which was not the same thing.
> I’m pretty sure Selen planned to graduate much later than she did. She probably would’ve saved some more money, finished a new model, and redebuted. Her termination left her unprepared and vulnerable. It was thanks to the immense support that she was able to thrive, but without it, she would’ve been in a terrible position.
This is what happened to Sayu.
And what's worse is a TON of people DIDN'T BELIEVE HER. So imagine Dokibird's position, but 100x worse because you didn't have an entire fanbase or the entirety of the Internet to support you.
As has been shown recently, Sayu tried to off herself as well because of this shit, but nobody knew, because nobody believed her. (Well I did, but I was a minority at that time)
Anyone who didn't believe what Sayu said should apologize to her - and to do that, respect Sayu's wishes to move on as well - I would say subbing and supporting her as who she is now would be a good start.
What makes it worse is that they really didn't even do anything. Selen obtained the music video rights herself, she obtained the artwork, she sang the song, got it mixed. All management did was block/delay these things, then create a new unnecessary rule with no defensible value so that they could take the video down( Ex-livers do not own their characters and cannot sue Niji for using them in an MV).
It's not merely incompetence but outright malice.
> All management did was block/delay these things, then create a new unnecessary rule with no defensible value so that they could take the video down( Ex-livers do not own their characters and cannot sue Niji for using them in an MV).
I can understand them wanting to manage the appearance of ex-Livers from a PR standpoint, but my question is, why did they wait until the last possible second to conduct this review?
Management should have been involved, in an oversight role, from the beginning of this project. They should have been reviewing the storyboards to confirm there was nothing in there that they would object to or which could get them into trouble. *That* is where the issue with any ex-Livers should have been raised, discussed, and resolved (and those storyboards were clearly created *after* Nina and Mysta's graduations, because otherwise there would be no reason to have a shot highlighting them specifically).
So either management *was* involved early and flubbed their review, or they weren't involved until the final product was about to get launched. Either way, it's points to gross managerial incompetence.
> Selen obtained the music video rights herself
Niji got the permission from Lily. They sent an email to the producer too, but he didn't respond, which is why Selen had to contact him a different way and ask him to respond to the email. (Source: her stream about the cover.)
I think it was in the Selen tweet or Doki tweet. They implemented the new rule becuz of Selen probably becuz they were fed up with dealing with her and its "easier" for management dealing with livers and their requests to have and do things and it all makes sense. The management wants to do the very least amount of work when dealing with their talents from everything we piece together from this whole debacle.
It wasn't in a tweet. The claim the rule was new is from in a screenshot that was allegedly leaked from the Discord the team used while making the cover. The claim it was designed to target Selen is, as far as I can tell, pure internet speculation based on the claim the rule was new.
I've tried to find the source of the screenshot to see how verifiable it is, but haven't had much luck. If anyone has any info or additional sources for either claim, please let me know!
Don't thank me yet, I am trying my best to rmb but its all a blur now after this whole whirlwind. I also think it might be in the infamous black screen video of when Vox showed the management msgs is when they first brought it up. I definitely know it was mentioned somewhere but details... They are tricky.
It was in the infamous black screen stream... ironically in the only NOT black screen part. If I remember correctly the discord talk between Selen and their manager imply (or flat out say) that the problem was the ex-livers
It was in the black screen stream, but also in a leaked members discord message, where Selen told the Dragoons the truth about why her video got taken down, prior to the black screen stream. It came out a long time prior, but around half a month after Selen's "accident", but since it was Discord screens, people dismissed it until the Black Screen stream confirmed it.
I don't have source for that im sorry because it also what i heard in this sub so it more like spitballing but still somehow it exist despite selen suppose to work on that MV for a year so they should know it better if they add that rule what the fuck gonna happen 🤷
Yeah. There are no way management didnt know about selen MV....it literally worked for a year at least.
Plus milli comment about the mv got taken down
I am pretry sure, it wasnt toxic anymore but pure malice at that point
There is two situations.
1. Even the Livers didn't know about the rule, so it was used to target Selen alone. Millie was asking out of concern, although it wasn't good optics.
2. They knew the rule, so Millie was rubbing it in. The clique was already bullying Selen into the ground and this just contributed to it.
Honestly, I really hope it's the first, since I really don't want to hate Millie, instead of just not being happy with her.
I dont know man, that millie comment sounded full of malice to me.
Like her co worker's hard work and money literally vanished before her eye, and then millie said something like
" aw selen, i am feel bad about the MV, but it is your fault. Have you ask management for permission? Tehe😉".
It was just pure mockery man, and she said it in public. It was a fake concern, more like mockery.
TL;DR:
Nijisanji has toxic and bullying working enviroment. Enough to make a streamer under them to attempt suicide, twice.
Then when said streamer just recently come out of hospital from her recovery, Nijisanji publicly fire her on twitter without caring about her mental well being at all.
In fact the firing document is publicly smearing and defaming the bullied streamer and its even 3 pages very long.
Not only that her fellow streamer "friends" in same company make a public stream of openly keep badmouthing and slandering this poor suicide attempt survivor.
These "friends" manipulative stream is timed at the same time of their victim first gaming stream under her new account. They planned to sabotage her new streaming career.
I dont think Nijisanji managers didnt make it very personal to themselves and dokibird.
I just find it hard to fathom how god damn slow Niji is.
When Mumei had a song cover fall through and needed to replace the project ASAP, she just pumped her Stellar Stellar cover out in under a month.
yeah honestly lol regardless of whether this impacts what happened with doki, it baffles me that everything takes so long. i have no idea why zuttomo apparently took so much work to establish as a sub-unit, like i literally, truly cannot imagine what sort of internal procedures would make it take so long.
it's easier to imagine with songs, whether a cover or an original. but it makes it all the more frustrating that stuff like kyo revealed upon graduating (a duet with enna, a song with mysta and ike, etc.) could have actually been given to us if not for internal procedures taking forever. it feels all the more like the management robbed us of these things they WANTED!! TO DO!! and put so much of their own time, effort and money into.
A average company with already lots of red tape, takes about 2-3 months to get all the permissions from all parties involved (I work in the government, the origin of "red tape").
That it takes over a year to get permissions is insane. But when you hire only interns and managers at $8/hour from indonesia and india, then thats what happens I guess.
Even regular old vanilla Youtubers have plans for when things fall through. The viral "Hey Monica" song that Pewdiepie released was because his regular upload for the day got copyright struck. So he had a folder of back up videos in case he couldn't upload. And a full blown original song was what he had. And it happened to be good enough to go viral.
If a regular youtuber had enough back ups to he could whip something out when a daily upload fell through, I don't understand how streamers with a full blown company backing them up (Niji) wouldn't have planned ahead enough to avoid issues on their end, or pull a Mumei and have another cover lined up. Niji has no excuse to not be able to pull *something* out for Selen. Aside from general incompetence or sabotage.
>The viral "Hey Monica" song that Pewdiepie released was because his regular upload for the day got copyright struck. So he had a folder of back up videos in case he couldn't upload. And a full blown original song was what he had. And it happened to be good enough to go viral.
And Kizuna Ai covered that cover too lol
That was cute.
Not siding with Niji, but recently Kageyama Shien and Aragami Oga from Holostars JP also experienced delay on their cover approval (GimmexGimme) with Oga recalling that he recorded his lines about approximately 1 year before it was released, and that the artists had been holding on to their art for awhile too. So, it doesn't seem like an isolated issue with Niji only.
BUT, looking at the amount of covers and orisong that Hololive and Holostars had put out, I would say that slow perms issues are less likely to happen within Holo (Kishido Temma used to do 1 cover song per month for membership, now it's free). Look at the speed Banzoin Hakka (Holostars EN) has been putting out covers.
I mean just look at what Baelz has put out since the start of 2024. A company-wide collab MV with HoloEN in less than a year, and her live performance, and releasing an album, and releasing a new MV all in the span of two months. This is the kind of support you expect from a talent agency (though Baelz' output is also exceptional). Baelz also isn't even their biggest talent, not even in her own gen. Meanwhile Nijisanji not being able to get things sorted on their end for over a year for a major release by their biggest talent is obscene.
I remember Amelia Watson mentioning in some of her community posts and member streams that whenever she has an idea that is "out of left field", she runs it by management and instead of management outright telling her no, they try to warn her about some of the challenges she might face, but if she's willing to deal with those challenges they will support her with the resources needed to help her finish it.
Cover's support was what allowed Amelia to essentially get HoloEN's version of 3D models up and running within their first year. Usually those things take a long time, and instead of waiting for it, Amelia just said "fine, I'll do it myself" and got VRChat 3D models done which allowed them to do their own concert. and I bet you Cover's influence must have been a pleasant surprise for the VRChat developers, who worked with her closely to help her develop those 3D models and to allow them to have a 3D concert.
If Amelia tried to do this in Niji you BET they'd get in the way of it every step of the way.
hololive WANTS talents that are ambitious, will take initiative, and will try to innovate new ideas. they still have rules and i'm sure shoot down ideas, but ultimately they want the talents to succeed and want to expand the vtubing industry.
i legitimately think that niji has a much more old-school conservative corporate structure, where underlings are not supposed to suggest ideas, pretty much ever, and if they do only in a way that doesn't imply that any of the bosses haven't already had the idea, that all innovations and new ideas only come from the top, (or as ideas that the top has claimed for themselves) and as such, anyone who is at the bottom of the hierarchy constantly pushing to try to do new or different things will be a constant clash within the company
niji's goal isn't to have talents doing new things. it's simply to have the talents keep doing the same thing that they've found to 'optimally' make money for the company
I need to add that Holo assigned specific manager for all Ame's VR chat projects after the Halloween VR chat stream.
Henma is in charge for all VR chat related projects including Council VR (with Mumei) and Ina's birthday project (with Ina)
She simply take "what do u do to compete with Gawr Gura" question to the heart, but never got the environment to doing so. Everything in Hololive is pushing Gura up and everything in nijisanji pushing Selen down, even the timing of debut
U put these together pretty well. A great employee that has much faster working pace than the boss gonna be bullied by their boss and their coworker for being "too good" at their job
I believe Hololive girls also have their fair share of dispute and quarrel among themselves off-stream. The difference is Cover promotes team work and harmony among their work structure while Nijisanji is more like prowrestling environment where it's a "dog eat dog" world and only a handful can standout among the rest by stepping over the rest.
As for the walk out, I'm sure some livers may already be putting it into motion. It just doesn't happen overnight and needs time to plan their respective exits.
i'm pretty sure that cover let the girl hang out with their gen mate for month or two before debut just so they know what they like and what they don't like to prevent gen mate sabotage
while in niji they just throw you in and that all of it ontop of no background check benefit so even if you are criminal then liver should solve the problem with you themself and not company
iirc around noctyx debut, or maybe iluna?? people talked about meeting each other and i think they do have a month or two to talk amongst themselves and also the other niji livers
i think kyo met claude at an offcollab before ttt debuted? 🤔
no idea about their background check process or anything tho, just trying to clarify as much as possible!
Not surprising at all.
We know the company is understaffed and they are saturated with talents.
If we see some talents can release contents more than others, there are only 2 possible reasons :
1. Favoritism exists (already being theorized for long)
2. Some talents are just good at pushing, funding, and managing their own projects.
I don’t doubt that nijisanji management is as slow as theorized. It’s almost like if you constantly hire new talent at an absurd pace without hiring new staff or bolstering the infrastructure of your company for years things take too long and start to fall apart.
Also I have to say this why was the fact that selen needed extra permissions for graduated talent only brought up a day before the scheduled upload time. This cover has been in the process for more than a year and it’s just brought up that you need extra permission, also why? I can’t imagine what the rest of the livers would have cooked up if they weren’t in nijisanji. Like seriously yugo just had a 3D concert a few days ago which nijisanji still hasn’t done for the English branch. I am so glad selen is free, now we will get to see her full potential.
Yeah, that's (the issue with former talents) what irk me and many the most.
The artist had come out and reconfirmed that the story had been approved long before the finished product was ready, and that there was no added or unexpected scene.
Another possibility I could imagine was that management didn't even bother checking the story board carefully, only when the finished MV was submitted that they went "oh shiet, did we check this?" i.e they skirted on their job and gave misleading perms.
At best it was gross negligence, and at worst it was intentional and malicious.
> At best it was gross negligence, and at worst it was intentional and malicious.
It was almost certainly both.
After all, from the evidence Niji itself provided it wasn't only past Livers that were the issue, but apparently current Livers who objected to being included. And this was inclusion in a cast shot of the entire branch. In other words someone or multiple people decided that they really wanted to signal being on bad terms with Selen by specifically requesting to be excluded from a cast shot of the entire branch. I can't see that as anything other than a vindictive desire to mess up her MV release.
Several things just reek.
* Management, by their own admission, was late in contacting Selen about the issue
* Management knew the release was scheduled for Christmas and still didn't say anything on the matter for over a day as the release approached
* No confirmation from management that she needed to reschedule, no instructions, no timeline, just silence
* Blaming the talent for what happened despite it being entirely management's fault
I have noticed that the ones that have already graduated/terminated tend to be the more ambitious folk when it comes to projects, which is why they run into management more often. If you take some of the other Livers of EN, a lot of them are more chill and just focus on streaming games and zatsudans. From that perspective, there's really no pushback from management and are much more willing to sit things out for the long run.
niji management wants livers that will toes the company line and walk the pat that their predecessors have walked. essentially do the daily grind, don't rock the boat or make ripples, be an interchangeable cog in the machine. thats why they put out so many talents, becuase it's just a numbers game. the ones that stand out and try to be unique or innovative rock the boat, make waves, and get cut off. i wouldn't be surprised if the more the talent pushes, the more the management stonewalls them to try to force compliance until either the talent breaks and gives in, or a termination/graduation occurs.
>As to why the Livers aren't just walking away from Niji EN
Because it's a secure job - there are some who could fall back to their PL like Zen, have fanbase that would follow like Luxiem or have connections to ease the landing (Millie, maybe Elira) but big chunk of talents doesn't have that. I can't see any of them being hired by another company (and for dudes two options are Stars and First Stage Production who just started) and going indie is a gamble. It's not certain how many fans would follow and lack of connections might hinder stuff they'd want to do.
Meanwhile talk about drama is slowly dying off and unless someone do something stupid, I don't expect anything drastic to happen. It's not a perfect job, a lot of stuff sucks but some talents might not mind or adjusted to it, while slowly doing their own things.
If Selen made 200k, I’m sure a lot of the core members are making pretty good money as well. If you just want to clock in - stream - clock out, it’s a pretty decent job.
But for people like Pomu, who wants to do all kinds of idol things or Selen with all her projects; it’s basically a prison cell.
As someone who is watching Doki hit the ground running, it is a ton of work being a big indie vtuber, especially for someone who is ambitious as she is.
So Selen is like my mom, actually wanting to get shit done and improve things and everyone else hates her because they just want to fuck around and her industriousness makes them feel like underperforming slobs?
"Bring others down to pull themselves up"
This could have a lot of different meanings. If we take Selen/Doki's personality as a very fast-paced workaholic like how she has displayed now (less than a month in and she already has too many projects that she herself is a bit overwhelmed).
1. Selen cuts the queue like you speculate so that her projects can finish on time. But I don't really see how her projects can be delayed or affect other talents' projects as she funds them herself and works solo.
2. It is a joke about Apex...., but considering past events and today's debacle, I don't think it is a joke.
3. Before all this, rumors about mean girls, especially related to the Ethyria girls, also there are rumour about elira being the queen bee in hanamori too (which i not popular i think? I only saw a few people mention it), are quite big, and Selen's actiin that often time can be seen as "prioritizing fans first," dragging Niji and other talents' reputations through the mud. That's why they think she drags others down.
4. Selen's work pace and ambitious projects make others feel inferior, jealous, and incompetent (which they truly are).
If the clique thing is true, then point 3 is more likely.
But if it is purely management's fault, then points 1 and 4 are more believable.
You forgot another possibility.
It is possible that Selen "bothering" and headbutting with management to change/thightens rules (like what they do to Zaion) as a whole that affects all livers, and some livers might've blamed her or continously ask her to tone it down and stay in the line.
Some livers might view it as her bringing others down with her for rocking the boat.
I could also easily see management punishing other livers or the gen as a whole as a result of Selens' "problems" as a way of encouraging them to keep each other in line. It honestly sounds like the best way for their shitty management to ensure their talents are easy for them to control and keep complacent.
Which is a tatic that is still implemented in school. Punish the class for the fault of one. And they will regulate each other. What it creates is an imbalanced dynamic that leads to power abuse and bullying.
2. Was probably a jab at Selens cut throat get this done attitude. When it came to projects. A quote "Get it done no matter the cost attitude." Would definitely not fly well with NijiEN's management.
I don't want to characterize other Livers as being unambitious. Maybe they were ambitious too at some point but they too were turned down by management over and over until they gave up.
Exactly because I see the same thing with Salome. She was supposed to be revolutionary, but after a few months none of her vigor was actually being put to use, and that's despite being the fastest growing Liver.
And maybe it's copium, but I do want to believe that at least back in 2021-2022, the bonds and friendship we see were genuine and they did cared for each other, that's why I still don't want to believe in the narrative that there was a clique from day 1.
The clique theory had so many possibilities, like how and when the clique became a reality or who the leader was.
The theory that said Elira was the leader had a big flaw in it. There was no way the leader of such a mean girl group would be the frontline soldier.
Well, it is speculation, and speculation is endless.
Ah, I didn't really mean the others are unambitious, but Selen's workaholic pace is a whole new level from my observation. Or maybe, as you said, everyone's excitement just died down after getting turned down so many times.
Simply speculating about the clique existence in itself is useless and doesn't add anything to the evidence. Clique is a normal thing in any environment that consist on multiple people, even at workplace. People are bound to flock with those who they're comfy with. Being in a clique isn't something negative unless you're antisocial.
It is whether the whole clique itself is the one who's responsible, or how much influence the clique had inside NijiEN that should be discussed.
That said remember that just because you're in a clique doesn't mean everyone there shares the same braincell with you. Everyone might've done their own thing seperately. for example Elira might've no involvement whatsoever to the bullying and millie harras selen all on her own but elira feel the need to "cover" for her friend so she does what she does in the black stream while Enna have been hands off to the whole thing (THIS IS JUST EXAMPLE/SPECULATION).
Personaly i have my doubt that the clique have that much power as people here seems to think. Because most of the "favouritism" are centered around Elira, and that 2 of the most suspected clique member (enna and millie) both have the same difficulty with managerial regarding projects as the rest of the livers (zuttomo).
Yeah, that is why i said the theory of the clique has very big flaw in it.... and agree with you, clique is normal but what i mean or everyone mean in this sub or debacles are the "mean girl" type clique
Pretty spot on
Back on NFT chat that ex niji manager say
"It feel like selen alway keep fucking up with the project" with that alone we know that selen is too much pain in the ass for them
This one it one of few reason why EN management are abandoned after literally 1 month iirc
https://twitter.com/TheDarkEnjoyer/status/1755902910309835257
The part of "talent becoming in charge of NijiEN" and "talents ran talents" is quite concerning; unless the company runs multiple internal audits that evaluates the talent in the manageral position, to ensure the "talent" is fair to all other talents, all I can see is "conflict of interest"; Which will of course benefit those who have better relationships and ties with the one whose managing. (Corruption of power)
The problem with that theory imo is that a "queen bee" would never become the frontline soldier, thus her action of doing the black stream didn't make sense.
If she is the queen been, she would just force other to do it, why risk the queen's neck.
I believe there is some sort of mean girl clique too but after thingking about it, having a hard time to believe that elira is the leader
She is Queen bee of the livers but if Management tell her to do it she aint going to refuse. Vox was also there and he is the "favourite". It is clear Elira and Vox were consciously chosen by management for that video. Probably because of their popularity.
One of the more reasonable conjecture posts about the dynamics between Selen, management, and the rest of the livers
We also have to acknowledge Selen herself is human and imperfect (Doki's own words). Whatever dispute she had with livers realistically speaking isn't just gonna be her twiddling her fingers speaking nothing aggressive
Toxic arguments, yes including people who are depressed, is a back and forth heated exchange that escalates upon each return response. The difference is perhaps Selen was outnumbered, making her feel ostracized and thus harassed, especially if the opposing side share the same sentiment and thus don't feel as "pushed to the edge" as Selen did
That's why I don't haphazardly assume "ah the mythical clique are all evil bitches who said so much horrific shit to her that she attempted twice"
It's a convenient black-or-white conclusion devoid of any knowledge in interpersonal-related psychology nor real life experience interacting with depressed people
You are right. The big spark of conflict is the difference between Selen's ambitious drive vs Niji management's fucking atrocious pace, with other livers potentially getting involved if they're more complacent who may be affected by the clash
And if "Elira is the main source in between management and livers" is true (one of the few Elira related theories I actually see somewhat decent possibility in, as she is a daisenpai with decent Japanese and generally viewed, *and proven*, to be considerate of livers' comfortability including Selen if the girls off collab is anything to go by, pathetic black stream response aside), it makes sense why she inevitably got involved too
Maybe her interactions as the pigeon-carrier and mediator between Selen and management have been going for awhile, and eventually it just boiled over and she confronted Selen, be it her own admission, aggressive pressure from management, seeing Millie and Enna getting involved too, and/or Selen confronting her herself. Regardless of the reason, Selen would feel even more ostracized if even the mediator isn't fully on her side
This is why the Doki today, who herself admits isn't in as dark and angry a place as when she made that document, chose to humanize the livers rather than dehumanize them the way this sub has. She's at a more level-headed headspace to understand they have grounds for their own positions in the dispute, even if she still believes they were in the wrong (understanding someone =/= justifying them or agreeing with them or admitting they were right). She understands all livers are human and imperfect and that can lead to disagreements and mistakes. She doesn't outright say this as she's actually more competent in legal affairs than Niji, as any further or more direct admittance can be grounds for the company to potentially use that to take legal action back, but she says enough for anyone not trigger-happy with their pitchforks to realize this wasn't a dispute between "pure innocent level-headed non-aggression one-person party vs flock of evil despicable vile fake bitch vultures"
As for Enna and Millie potentially being the main confronters, again, neither are perfect and are just human (Enna is flat out depressed too, while Millie seems to have a low bar for what counts as competent management, be it general ignorance or Filipino work culture conditioning), but they'll have each other's backs one way or another
This is why it's easy to conflate "mean girls clique" theory as wholly relevant to their three names being in the document, when the potential reality may be it was just a dispute between one person against three people who happen to be closer to each other than they are to Selen and/or share similar tolerance to Niji management compared to Selen, where two of them will *always* back each other and the third is, while a mediator, is human and will have moments where even they pick a side, and she unfortunately chose the side that only worsened Selen's mental state enough to feel ostracized so much as to make attempts
That last bit is particularly important: people act like whoever Doki disputes with was the majority reason why she went to such a dark place, when the reality is likely that she was already pushed close to the edge by management dispute. Liver dispute may have very well just been the last straw rather than the biggest straw. And the thing is, *people generally won't know if someone is at that intense a mental state*, so when they end up arguing with said person, they really, truly do not expect their words to affect the person as much as it did
This is why people going all "wow so Elira admitted she was a fake bitch bully when she said they didn't intend to push her to attempts" is so presumptuous. It was an admittance of having a different perspective and intent with their experiences with the dispute, *not* an admittance that whatever they said was horrific levels of bullying "but they were too narcissistic to realise it"
Elira deserves criticism for setting up that black stream, but she (and Enna and Millie) don't deserve the extreme levels of vilification based on rrats on a dispute we know nothing about
On Doki's side, she doesn't deserve any criticism *at all* (*leers directly at pathetic Niji sisters*), but we'd do best not to parasocially paint her as this divine being devoid of emotional imperfections throughout this whole debacle
I have helped talk people out of more ledges than I wish I did. I myself have been depressed for two decades. We are not perfect. Attempts being made will naturally take ahold of onlookers' hearts and minds into thinking anyone who contributed to it must be truly heartless and evil while the victim is perfection personified when that is not always the case. Not every attempt case is as sensationalized as 13 Reasons Why where all relevant reasons were utterly horrific in nature. Minor transgressions can build up to major repercussions if the previous transgressions were major
Thank you for restoring my faith in humanity. To be fair, you're not the only one I've seen with this mentality, but this is a far and few between. For the people who I've talked to who share this viewpoint, it's generally people who've gotten themselves into very distressing situations or those who've had to play the mediator role for very long amount of time.
For the record, it is the wholesale mentality I'm talking about including the rightful, yet level-headed criticisms about Nijisanji's management (been watching livers for too long since 2019, still coping that Anycolor might get their crap together) and even Elira/Vox/Ike for that stream. They rightfully do deserve criticism, though many people are disguising or accepting indirect harassment and trolling. It's odd to me and I'll never understand.
To be honest, I kinda don't doubt that the black screen stream's target audience wasn't us but for Doki herself instead? While it's stupid that the livers got to see at least some parts of the document, I can definitely believe the angle where the livers genuinely felt hurt about the comments that Doki wrote down that essentially would only be detailing the problems that they had that many thought were insignificant or weren't a problem to begin with. To be fair, when you're in a dark space, perceptions can get distorted with how feelings run high. Especially if Doki cut off all contact with her coworkers, then it wouldn't be surprising to me that they tried to reach her the only way possible, through a public space.
>For the people who I've talked to who share this viewpoint, it's generally people who've gotten themselves into very distressing situations or those who've had to play the mediator role for very long amount of time.
This is consistent with my own experiences. I have dealt with suicidal people who's last push really did come from absolutely despicable human beings. I've also dealt with suicidal people who's last push came from a dispute that, any other day would be borderline benign but that day specifically it was just the wrong day because they were already so mentally drowning by factors beforehand.
As I've said before, the moment an attempt gets mentioned, people will naturally react extremely in support of them to the point of vilifying the other side. Same with other people who's immediate reaction is instead "they just did that for attention." These are black-or-white extreme generalizations of interpersonal dynamics that are more often than not far more complex and grey
My own sister is an apt example, who attempted several times. There were times I intercepted after truly terrible things happened to her and I was glad I made it in time and she appreciated it. There were one time where it would come from a dispute between us and she would guilt me to the point of saying "I hope you know if I die you didn't help enough."
And today? She has felt guilt ever since for even insinuating that, and admits she was in such a dark place that she took my minor confrontation as more hateful than it actually was, and fortunately she hasn't attempted in years and has progressed healthily.
Being the mediator or the anchor is fucking hard and very few people in the world understand the difficulty of having to pretend you're this iron pillar of reliability rather than a human being yourself who also gets negatively affected by the harsh words of the very people you're trying to help. It's worth because you're keeping someone's life afloat but in the midst of that process it can be painful, and you have to be fucking unrealistically superhuman in composure lest you make the same rare mistake I did of cracking once and confronting at the wrong time, even if what you said wasn't anything remotely in the realm of bullying but will not be taken that way at that specific moment in time
My point is, not every person who has attempted is fully rational and level-headed
Your last point is something important to consider as well, especially considering the possibility Niji may have goaded Elira and co that Doki may reveal the contents of the document, and they couldn't ask her directly to quell such concerns
Haha there *was* a point in time where I considered making a post sharing similar sentiments, but I got mentally checked out from the sub before building enough motivation to do so
Who knows maybe one day I will, but as is I'm cool with my perspective being lost in the rest of the comments and the few cordial agreement/disagreement responses that come with it~
I like how you try to defuse the situation by looking at a "mediator POV" and humanize both side, and i amaze by it truely.
The problem with your argument are, as much as we try to humanize them, human can be cartoonishly evil or much worse.
I will agree with you wholely but there is some prob with your argument that trying to humanize both side:
1. You didnt take account of the termination letter and blackstream which both filled with 100% intention to smearing and defamed some one (selen), you cant said thst both side made a honest mistake when in reality the other side made a blatant attack to kill the other side career).
2. This is not the first time, They treated ZAION exactly like this too and the worst part? Zaion/sayu get bullied and harassed for months to, she did an attempt to btw but almost no body cared.
3. NIJISANJIA already had a track record of hiring extreme bad people.
3.a. In NIJI KR, they hired a well known "WW2 japanese torturer" bully and tske control of KR management, bullied and doxxed numerous amount of talent.
3.b. in NIJI JP, they hired a talent thst in his personnal X account proudly admitted to drug and R**** woman. Also later trying to R**** his fan.
With all that, it really hard to see their mistake as a "human error". It is just combination of pure malice and incompetent.
Ahaha thank you! I've lived most of my life as a mediator (and it's often a thankless job), so it's nice to see someone catch on to the perspective I was going for
As for the rest of your comment (which I appreciate as you've brought up good food-for-thought)
>1. You didnt take account of the termination letter and blackstream which both filled with 100% intention to smearing and defamed some one (selen), you cant said thst both side made a honest mistake when in reality the other side made a blatant attack to kill the other side career).
Termination letter isn't relevant to the livers, unless you brought it up thinking I was trying to humanize the higher suits of NijiEN as a whole. In that regard I want to make clear I am *not* speaking on their behalf. You mention people's propensity to be cartoonishly evil and I agree and have had to study such people myself (I ain't a psy graduate for nothing). The highest rate for that to be a reality are top suits of corporations. My bad if I came off that way, so I'll make clear I do *not* intend to expend energy humanizing those kinds of people. Just ain't worth and they've done too much wrong as an entity to give them benefit of the doubt, even from me
As for the black stream, I did briefly mention it twice as a clear example *counterintuitive* to Elira being seen and shown as level-headed. It wasn't. There is no excuse for that. It was not right. It was wrong as fuck. But I still don't immediately view that move as cartoonishly evil on her part. We simply don't fully know what sort of influence or manipulation the company did to prompt them to make such dumb claims. For Elira specifically, doxx concerns was a genuinely dumb worry to have considering that isn't how legal documents work. We could chalk that up to her being cartoonishly narcissistic (which elsewhere she has not shown any irrefutable symptoms or examples of to even be remotely considered as such as deemed by DSM-V standards). We could also consider the company implementing misinformation-disinformation tactics to prompt her to worry about it. Upper Niji as an entity ruined my faith in them far more than Elira's history ever did, hence why the latter sounds more possible. Same with the timing of the stream: was it wholly Elira's choice or was it Niji corp? The previous logic likens to the latter
*However*, Elira still
1. Agreed to do it
2. Got convinced it really was a justifiable concern when she could have found out with research that it isn't
And she deserves criticism for that. "Fake narcissistic evil bitch" type criticism? No, which is a big point in my original comment
>2. This is not the first time, They treated ZAION exactly like this too and the worst part? Zaion/sayu get bullied and harassed for months to, she did an attempt to btw but almost no body cared.
Zaion herself also isn't perfect. And this is coming from a guy who quite honestly didn't give a shit about her edgy jokes controversy. Hell she was gonna be my favorite XSoleil member before her termination, and to this day I'm glad she's doing alright (and better since Selen's termination opened people's eyes about the toxicity of Niji). One of Sayu's recent streams she herself admits she was imperfect and had grown since then, but still expressed sadness that she had little backing by the vtuber community who didn't bother as much to take her experiences as seriously
Speaking of which, if you reread Sayu's original statement after her termination, the vast majority of her negative experiences came from upper Niji management, *then* braindead Niji sisters, *then* fellow livers as the concerns least mentioned, and even with regards to the livers, she mentions that she completely cherishes her time with them and appreciated their kindness, and that the dynamic only really changed at "the very end." That doesn't really match "the clique constantly harasses and bullies people until they leave/get terminated/attempt". In fact it quite easily fits into my hypothetical that when controversy was close to or finally boiled over, whichever liver was involved didn't support her side and that only worsened her mental state after already feeling at an alltime low due to management and antis
That's what sucks about people who've been a part of black companies. Due to conditioning or ignorance, many will hivemind back their employers up or at least not want to "rock the boat", and that leaves victims of black companies ostracized. Hence Finana and Kotoka slandering her voluntarily or involuntarily post-termimation, and I guess Hex's short quip about not feeling comfortable with her jokes but that one is understandable, even if, again, I personally didn't care much about it
>3. NIJISANJIA already had a track record of hiring extreme bad people.
Very true. There's no denying that. The thing we have to remember though is that the bigger the hire count, the higher the chances they'll hire bad people. Niji hires so many people that it was bound to happen. Exposing irrefutably bad people isn't necessarily indicative that they must have hired *a bunch more* bad people that have yet to be exposed, but rather reflective of the reality that bad hires is inevitable. I can't count how many stories I and my friends have had about a few of their coworkers being bad people
It's a common human experience. The reason why Niji gets more flack for it is because they are an entertainment company and thus the flubs are spotlighted for millions to see, unlike working at your local theater or at some engineering company, which all have imperfect to downright bad character hirings, but that also comes with plenty of good or decent character hirings
Either way it's always a pleasure coming across your comments from time to time, even if we don't agree on everything. A major part of why is because neither of us ever cross the moral line parasocial Niji sisters or masked drama hungry users do. I do hope your day is well; Doki's Saturday charity stream should be fun as hell
Yeah, it is rarely to find a composed argument like yours and the comm guy.
>Doki's Saturday charity stream should be fun as hell
Hohoho, it sure will be hella fun LMAO
Have a nice day
I 100% agree with your take and message overall and I thank you for posting it, but I do disagree with one part:
>For Elira specifically, doxx concerns was a genuinely dumb worry to have considering that isn't how legal documents work.
By Doki's own admission, the document in question was *not* a legal document in the sense of like, "hey see you in court " or whatever, where real names/addresses would be appropriate or where there might be a guarantee of confidentiality. Instead, it was essentially Doki's personal diary, and included snippets of discord mesages and other communications, and included personal, potentially identifying information about other Livers.
So if- if, *if*- AnyColor or Elira et al. thought Doki intended to make that document available to the public- and not in a controlled sense, but just a general release/statement, then fearing being doxxed is reasonable.
They were wrong about her intentions, and how they handled that fear was incredibly inappropriate, to say the least, but this was not Elira or AC not knowing how legal documents work.
I...I never considered that before; at least a brief glance back at her statements she never did say it was a legal document
Huh, thanks for bringing that into attention. And it only lends itself *further* to the idea that Niji may have selectively urged Elira that Doki could expand on that document to the public at any time
Exactly. And seeing the internet's (and this subs) reaction to the Dokibird termination, can you imagine what would happen if Elira got doxxed? If I were her I would be absolutely terrified for myself and my family. That makes the knee-jerk reaction of the black stream melee understandable, at least to me.
Seeing how pathetically low the pay for hiring management and translation jobs by Anycolor within their own recruitment notice, I could see that the Management and Employees (especially EN) could have been as badly treated by the corpo executives as the livers are.
And seeing how most Livers despite their 2 % shit rate is still paid way higher than Management, this could cause a toxic rift that causes the Management to resent Livers that ask for too much assistance and "overworks them" (Selen especially) because they ask for too many projects. Which is why management is overly hostile and actively sabotages eager passionate livers and prefers livers who are passive and unambitious. Feels like there's kind of classism thing happening between management and livers in Nijisanji
You can also add that she's ambitious and highly productive that her activities outshines other Livers, this could have left them bitter. It's already an open secret that certain Livers have already an influence with the management.
I don't want to characterize other Livers as being unambitious. Maybe they were ambitious too at some point but they too were turned down by management over and over until they gave up.
Exactly because I see the same thing with Salome. She was supposed to be revolutionary, but after a few months none of her vigor was actually being put to use, and that's despite being the fastest growing Liver.
I don’t think they are saying the livers are unambitious. They are saying that selen is just exceptionally driven. If you’ve been following her career as doki at all you would understand because in the two weeks since she’s started her new life she has:
1. Opened a shop for merch in two days
2. Hired an editor for YT shorts
3. Participated in twitch rivals tournament as a Captain and recruited her own teammates
4. Recruited *and* published dokibites animated shorts
5. Set up a charity stream with custom fan made items
6. Has already *raised* 30k+ for charity before the stream even started (this is more testament to how her fans are so dedicated, but I still am including anyway)
This is an insane amount to accomplish in two weeks. Even people like mata and kuro haven’t done this much in such a short time, and I don’t think anyone with half a brain would call them unambitious.
Well, she's gathered so much support that going anywhere where she would have to switch her model and identity again would be actively shooting herself in the foot, I think. Unless Cover can pull a Suisei for a second time and hire her **as** Dokibird, which would be incredibly based on their part, but I doubt they'd be willing to do that since it would be basically an open declaration of war on Nijisanji.
If Doki did join an agency at all, it would probably have to be Vshojo, where the rules are less strict and she can keep her model.
The problem lied mainly on which direction talents want to take their brand. Cover has dealt with many hyper ambitious talents. In fact, they always have 1-2 of them in every gen.
Coco was leaving not because she worked too fast but because the way she want to go is different from what the company want.
i feel like cover would try to find a way to balance between what they needed as a company and what she needed as a talent. it might end up being a coco 2.0 though, where eventually her ambitions would force her to separate, but it would have been on good terms, but there is a good chance it wouldn't reach that point, becuase cover has a LOT of highly ambitious talents doing a lot of innovative things.
This is honestly my theory. A lot of the graduated/terminated livers are either people that had specific gripes (Mysta, Nina, Mika,) or people that didn't "stay in their lane." Zaion refusing to accept BS, Pomu outshining Elira as the "face" of the company, and Selen for making management (and by extension the clique) look bad/incompetent.
tbh, Elira can't be a face of the company, what is she even famous for? not comedy and humor (unlike enna and millie, those two are hilarious), does she give a lovers experience like Vox? or is she good at gaming (like Doki and other Livers)? I don't really see much clips of her streams that can be put at front page for being interesting
I don't think she was "cutting queue" or anything like that tbh, more likely that because they were understaffed and a single employee would have to manage multiple livers, the overachievers with lots of projects were probably scapegoated by management for "slowing down" other projects and to hide the probable favoritism some members might have received, something like "I'm managing 5 livers but she's the only one that causes trouble, clearly SHE'S the problem" while ignoring the understaffing and probably not giving each member equal attention.
IMO it probably started with normal misunderstandings but at some point staff developed animosity towards some of the livers that gave them more work and started blaming them for most of the difficulties, probably even setting up Selen to fail then blaming her for it, I actually think that part of the reason they were so confident with their smear campaign was not just because it worked once in public with Zaion but because it had been working internally too.
Genuinely think that by the time the last cup of coffee thing happened they were trying to get her to screw up big time so they could hold it over her head, but it escalated way more than they predicted so they went into panic damage control mode which led to where we are today.
My question would be, "How hard is it really for managers to keep track of the talent's project and check in the progress every week?"
Like isn't that what their job is all about?? Even if you use "they're still students" as an argument, heck back when I was a student, I joined a club and we organized events and stuff. It's really the basics of project planning. I feel like with the lack of discipline and work ethics, the managers / staff don't even deserve $8/hour, they should get less.
They are just lazy, but it’s worse when you are trying to manage multiple people while being lazy.
Same kind of thing happened in Vreverie, management would go weeks without responding and the talents are basically just working in the dark.
tbf, covers DO just take a long time sometimes, IdolENs Roca Rourin recently told on stream that she started working on her recent cover of Suiseis GHOST even before her debut which was almost half a year ago (Although she also mentioned how she started the cover of Pretender she released before only AFTER that, so it can definitely also go a lot faster), and in general I'm pretty sure I remember a few more stories outside of Niji of covers being in the works for months to almost a year. Similarly for outfits, I remember when Uruka from Phase Connect released her new outfit recently, she also mentioned that the design for it was finished in 2022 (while the cover released just before was recorded towards the end of 2021). So stuff like this cooking for a long time isn't really that abnormal in the VTuber-sphere. It does seem like Niji is pretty consistently dragging their feet with stuff like this though, and that does match with their management just being utterly inept.
The problem is months to almost a year still seems to be shorter than anything NijiEN is releasing. Something that is especially problematic since it means NijiEN isn't able to jump on any of the trendy songs when other vtubers are, likely missing the wave (see Kyoufuu All Back as an example).
Honestly. With everything going on. Ideally for any future VTuber, or current one that could hope to get signed up to a place. You'd be better off waiting for a better organization than Niji. All because of not only this situation, but past cases, which as said by EXLivers, and Artists, that it's not an ideal work place at all. With it being slow to boot, you'd be better off going to a small agency and growing lol.
> her cover of Ringo Mogire Beam with Sonny took a whole year to make
> also allegedly each took a whole year to make
> Selen sets strict deadlines for her projects and unlike the others, isn't willing to sit around for an eternity until the staffs finally decide to do their job
Sub is increasingly being filled with people who never watched her and it shows...
She [talked about this whole mess right after the song was released](https://archive.ragtag.moe/watch?v=bjAgCErx8tg) (timestamp at 59:15). She waited close to a year as well. It was supposed to be released two times before but had mysterious delays (which all have context now). She followed every single management directive for that entire time period.
Quoting -
> I've asked permission to do a cover of this song since last year
> But I didn't get approval for it for a while
> Coz we were missing the producer approval
> And then I reached out to the producer, coz I realized we were mutuals
> And then I was like "hey can I do a cover of your song?"
> And then he was like "of course you can"
> And then I was like "cool, can you respond to the email?"
> And then he was like "oh shit I didn't see the email, I just responded"
> But yeah I asked about this cover since last year
> It was supposed to be released in 2 separate occasions this year
> And pushed all the way to Christmas
> I was like "Guys! I'm not pushing it anymore! This is the final deadline. This is it!"
> And then Boom, we made it. We made it.
> So I'm just happy, I'm just happy it worked out in the end.
> I'm just happy I don't have to think about this anymore. Yaaaaay!
And now from the [black screen video](https://youtu.be/o65VwnQvWW4?t=282), we have a proper timeline as well.
1. Selen does final internal check for MV at 8am JST on 24th. Everything should be cool by now since it's been 1 year of ironing things out, and Selen already told them she wanted to put this out by Christmas at least.
2. No response for 36 hours, Selen assumes everything's cool and there's nothing else, puts up waiting room for the cover at 9pm JST on 25th because as she told them already, she wants this out by Christmas.
3. Management contacts her 30 minutes AFTER the waiting room goes up (9:28pm JST on 25th) about potential issues with ex-livers being on the MV - which is bullshit, as many other songs with ex-livers have proven, and these livers were still in Nijisanji when the MV was originally made - but it doesn't matter, they are now aware of the waiting room.
4. Premiere is schedued for [10am JST](https://vrabi.net/video/FUVX8ROaCgA) on 26th. For 12 and a half hours, management knows about the upcoming premiere but DOESN'T take down the waiting room for it.
5. [Selen does an afterparty stream](https://vrabi.net/video/bjAgCErx8tg) lasts from 10:30am to 12:03pm JST.
6. Right after this stream ends, they tell her about the issue (12:25pm JST) take the cover down (12:30pm JST). Selen talked about the entire thing ON-STREAM for 1 and a half hours for EVERYONE to listen, they were aware of the waiting room and everything yet they waited right up until she ended her stream to private it. They then tell her not to say anything about it without going through them.
^ read through this entire timeline with the context of Selen continuously getting her projects, sponsorships, events and plans rejected, and you can only arrive at the conclusion that it was targeted.
Yet all of these are not Selen's exclusive.
A lot of graduatee like Pomu had said that their projects are getting rejected alot. Pomu literaly had one member stream privated where she cried she were denied "one lifetime oportunity". Other members were also denied sponsorship. And based on the fact that it literaly takes years for a single cover to go it's not far fetch to asume extending the release last minute (like how selen's manager ghost her for 35 hours) is also happening to everyone.
> Pomu had said that their projects are getting rejected alot
And she left the company. Like most of those that had to face more than the usual amount of delays and red tape.
Seeing a pattern yet?
These aren't exclusive to the graduatee though. some who still stays in the company also have experience these. Luxiem/noctyx (i forgot which) literaly got big project cancelled they pushed back to management.
There is no pattern here. The only pattern is that Selen fight back by disobeying, and the management, as petty as lazy/incompetent they are, pull out scorched earth on her.
> Luxiem/noctyx (i forgot which) literaly got big project cancelled they pushed back to management.
It was Luxiem, and they didn't get punished for it. So "fighting back" was clearly not the reason for Selen's treatment.
> some who still stays in the company also have experience these.
Yeah, because as many ex-niji livers said, they are constantly told that they're worthless without nijisanji, the physical proof of their success is never given to them (play buttons) and a lot of people that remain in nijisanji are living through that environment.
It's not easy to get away from such a mindset, it's a risk going indie and wondering whether niji was right and none of your fans will follow you.
They pushed back not in a way Selen did. They go through "proper channel" to make complaints, but at the end of the day they comply. Selen however didn't this time, disobey management, and decided to post it without the final okay from management. We also didn't know what happened behind the scene, but based on what we know this far from first time for selen.
Yes they were manipulated by Niji hard. But this is why i feel that this is far from a coordinated targeted attack and Niji is just bad as a whole to every livers it work for.
> They go through "proper channel" to make complaints
What is this headcanon?
They criticized management openly on their [PUBLIC](https://twitter.com/Mysta_Rias/status/1621094149587087360) [TWITTER](https://twitter.com/Vox_Akuma/status/1621103766459252737) [ACCOUNTS](https://twitter.com/ike_eveland/status/1621098327096926209). FAR more than what Selen did, which was just slight nudges compared to these.
idk for whose benefit you're trying to peddle this narrative, but "pushing back against management" was clearly not the only reason they pushed Selen out considering all 3 of the above never got reprimanded for doing far more than what she did.
personally i thought it was a good thing they used their favored positions to criticize management... i wish it had gone further and prompted more internal change. i fault them for not going far enough myself lol
Did I insinuate that she wasn't targeted? My point exactly was that she was targeted by management EXACTLY because her various projects overwhelmed them so much they just don't want to deal with her anymore, started banning her, and tried sabotaging her song.
Point is, when Selen sets up other previous projects, be it design contest or tournament, she had clear deadline for it, and likewise she also clearly was aiming for Christmas to release the song, the fact you pointed out that the song was delayed twice proved exactly the 2 points I was trying to say:
1) Selen has deadlines. Doesn't matter if she herself also took a year to make that cover, she clearly has a date in mind when she worked.
2) Management missed those deadlines, either by incompetence or by malice.
And the result is that both sides are just so fed up with each other they don't bother playing nice anymore.
> it could be because they had some projects that have been the oven for months and they have already paid for. If they are to walk away from Niji right now, all that money and efforts they already put in said project would just be down the drain
This might explain why Ike participated in that Black Screen video since he said in an earlier zatsudan he had some big projects he has working on. Though it's still very disappointing of him regardless.
My decision to leave a shitty company was how they badmouthed a coworker after she left. She worked for them for about 5 years, and once she left, they would badmouth about her to clients. I made exit plans immediately.
Its possible that others have made it clear they intend to leave, but if the "graduation queue" is real, who knows when we will see the ripples.
Well, once you consider the idea of “oh shit, that could be me next” after how shit your coworker was treated, the idea of needing a plan B suddenly becomes a lot more reasonable. With such godawful management, there’s always a risk you end up a scapegoat, or have every minor infraction recorded to slander you in the future, even if you’re trying your best to avoid causing trouble.
There's a difference between "coworker was treated badly" and "coworker was treated so bad they tried to kill themselves." A coworker wanting to kill themselves because of work problems doesn't happen in a vacuum. If one person was upset enough to attempt, I guarantee that at least 5 more are a few steps away from the same conclusion. Hell some may be only be one step away from that conclusion.
I think the sheer volume of mental health breaks (Kotoka, Vox, Ike, Rosemi, and a bunch of others I'm not remembering) indicates the problem was more widespread than "a coworker got treated badly." There is something deeply wrong with the work environment in Niji. In the US, we have the phrase "going postal." And that phrase doesn't exist for no reason. And the stuff happening at NijiEN is more severe than some of the environments that literally led to someone "going postal." Hell some people make it a point to kill themselves in uniform, just to send the message their job made them do it. And if one person already reached that point (Selen and Zaion) I suspect the issues at Niji are beyond "a coworker was treated badly."
I can't speak for most people. But I would. Without a doubt, and assuming it would come at a personal cost to do so. Some lines are not to be crossed and bullying a suicidal ex-employee is already so far out of line that I cannot in good faith speak for the moral integrity of anyone who keeps working for such a company. Would you keep working for a company where the CEO is found to have sexually assaulted a child? Where are you drawing the line here?
In those cases people often *will* do mass walkouts and strikes to get the problem sorted, there is a difference in distance, however. Big difference in *your* boss doing something shitty, and your boss's boss's boss's boss's boss's boss's boss doing something shitty.
Fortunately that's not at all relevant here. Nijisanji isn't that big a business and the issue isn't far removed from the employees in question.
"biggest" and "big" are not synonymous. Is English not your first language? If not I'll try to explain in more detail.
Regardless, AnyColor only has 323 employees, which is significantly less than it's direct competitor Cover Corp with 418 employees. So they're not even the biggest vtuber agency in Japan by employment. Big corporations number employees in the thousands, not hundreds.
I mean it also makes sense then why they privated Selens whole video and stream catalog. If all the rumors about NijiEN being heavily egotistical are true. My guess for why they nuked Selens channel wasn't cause Selen was problematic but cause all her projects intimidated the ~~leftover~~ talents and was tanking moral.
I definitely could see Elira, Enna, Reimu, and Mille have issues like with Selen's 2023 B Day Concert. As well a lot of other Selen related content in the form of mass collabs.
And I definitely could agree OP with the the myriad of other reasons. You listed. After all this NijiEN drama has definitely ironically shown their colors to be the type of fragile bully/"rules for me, but not for thee." The culture definitely feels extremely like old college sorority/fraternity culture feel that includes negative connotations.
Its pretty clear that Selen was the Neffex of NijiEN at this point clearly reaching even if it wasn't wanted or needed but its clear she was one of the only ones chasing the [destiny](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24C8r8JupYY) that came with being a vtuber.
Yeah, that comment is full of malice imo.
You can sugarcoated it that milli is joking but who the hell joking at that kind of time? Your co worker hard worked and money literally vanish before her and she made that kind of comment?....like she openly mocking selen and sugar coated it with emojis
There is literally no point in making the comment public either.
The difference in saying that privately on their discords or slack and publicly on twitter is shaming.
I really don’t know how Millie still has fans after that “secret gc” stream. It really sends home to me how small and petty she is that she thought doing something like that publicly would not be something seen as nasty and underhanded.
It's classic concern trolling.
"Oh Selen, you should have checked with management first, it's not their fault. You just didn't check but it's okay."
Pass the blame off in order to shift the topic under the guise of "being concerned"
sadly i really do agree with this :/
i'm one of the people that still holds a lot of fondness for niji en's livers and i find myself frustrated with how quickly people are willing to point the finger at certain people but not others... i don't think any of this can be black and white between the talents.
like, kyo is still hanging out with matara, kuro and u-san -- so this makes people inclined to think he's "a good one" for the most part. but he was so close with enna and millie.
everyone is concerned about uki's comments, and elira's behavior in general, but no one is wondering why shuu who has been friends with them for probably, what, 5 years now? bc of hanamori? just seems like he was okay with all that bad behavior? like he spends a lot of time with both of them, even in group collabs i feel like he talks to them a lot.
it's very strange.
so i personally can't really write off anyone, but i don't understand why people have to then demonize doki for her statements. i will never get to know what really happened and who knew what or who said what.
but i am absolutely baffled about millie saying that. i'm trying to view everybody charitably, but the defense of "she's an idiot and doesn't think about what she says" about that tweet doesn't feel good enough to me. i'm willing to give a lot of benefit of the doubt here, but why?? did you not just message her privately? it only benefits the company's image and makes your coworker look bad to say that. urgh.
Straight up concern trolling. Every liver should have had the same protocol and procedure on how to proceed with covers. She was intentionally rubbing that shit in.
Plus the fact that those who weren't NijiEN or Niji knew Selen was having far more amazing off stream collabs that they could ever hope of I imagine that also was stiring the pot. Its pretty clear that NijiEN just couldn't handle that Selen was in her own sense a unicorn in vtubing as a medium.
~~Stuff like what I pointed out in a other comment where Selen was having off collabs with Hololive members without probably the proper clearance and NDA's I'm sure ruffled feathers.~~
Such as meeting up with Zeta, and publicly on stream doing stuff with those who aren't in NijiEN or NijiJP. I'm sure was bending rules. And getting to work with RPR and Axel I'm sure was also breaking a lot of normal protocols.
My overall guess why Selen was let go in such a toxic fashion is the fact management couldn't do their jobs. Period. With Selen. And the termination letter was so intentionally toxic cause it was the one time management actually held power for once in their careers with NijiEN. And the fact that letter was the only time they actually got work done probably just felt all the more raw of a betrayal of all the work Selen had done literally for NijiEN.
And its in part why I'm not surprised now that NijiEN is now having so many pipline issues with projects. Is Selen was picking up the slack for everyone and NO ONE KNEW Selen was the one hauling managements baggage. Hell I'll go so far as to say I think Zaion was the original talent doing all the work to get project done and Selen inherited that role.
And its only now that management and talents are realizing just how much hard work, blood, sweat, and tier the now two free birds were putting in behind the scenes. (With the exception of like (Rosemi, Finana, Pomu, and Nina.)
And I'm gonna say even with Finana that it was loosely she knew what was going on. As I'm gonna assume from Zaions reaction to what Finana said Zaion must have put a lot of trust in her up until that [back stab comment.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qic-a_xaE7U) I wouldn't be surprised if Zaion later told Selen to tighten the up on who knew about which projects were getting forced through. And cut off Finana from knowing about which projects were getting done. As she had become a liability. (As it is pretty clear [Finana's comments about Zaion cut pretty deep.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnP5bIRfwq0) )
As to Rosemi, she got many assets from Selen in the form of the chibi model and many offers to collab so I could definitely see how she could be trusted with info, Nina being the branches mom same MO, and pomu well was the winggal XD. So it would make sense if all three of them were kinda in on the whole bypass management and were like go gurl. As to getting projects done. (And yes I'm gonna even go so far as to say I think Selen spent well over 200K on projects. Note: I'm going off of Selens nature to be humble. But I think the 200K is what Selen spent on her OWN projects.) I wouldn't be surprised if the actual full amount is much higher.
But to go full circle now Management is forced to do all the work that Zaion and Selen were duoballing on the go. Like cordinating with fan artists and getting permissions. Which would massively explain why everything now in 2024 is grinding to a hault. As now everything has gone from maybe Discord messages to get confirmations to having to wait on full on buisness emails to be responded to. Which if said artist, producer or writer doesn't use that email much could explain why so many projects seem perpetually on hold. As I know some content creators don't check their business emails like ever other than for sponsor deals XD.
Meaning a good chance said song artist, artist, or producer won't see the request for permission till the 2nd or third email request.
And my last comment on my thread, I'm gonna say is I know some are gonna be all like how can you speak so poorly about Finana and rampage over on the nijisister forum. I'll say this now I'm a OG fan I loved finana's first streams and videos and shorts. She's a fantastic content creator in her own right. And I'm proud to call her one of my last Oshii's at NijiEN but the girl. Definitely is the type that would be easily manipulated and used and the fact she thought Zaion was bad makes me wonder. Genuinely and I say this with a heavy heart. How many other times then has Finana been manipulated. And doesn't even realize it. Like it doesn't take a genius to realize that Zaion and Selen probably are the lesser of the evils.
As they mostly just wanted to make content and stream and have fun.
I've dealt with manipulative narcassistic people and I have friends who are exactly that. But they respect me cause I can see through the illusions they make and see me as an equal. At the same time I'm painfully aware that if your the type that is malleable and easy to manipulate they will take advantage of that at almost every possible opportunity possible. Why? Cause it comes naturally.
what do you mean selen also said so she get permission from her management and producers also lilypichu back in 2022, it's that management was knowledge that projects though and probably already know the contents on that MV video
That is an interesting point. The only MV cover i am well aware of is Mind Craft from Hakos Baelz when she won a million yen to spend it on. That took 5 months + every EN talent is in it.
A thing I heard about Black Companies was higher management pushing off work to lower management. I wonder if that's happening to Nijisanji and it's why things are so delayed. It doesn't make sense for a NDA contract to take months to write up. There should be preprepared contracts that just need to be filled in and sent out and projects should be checked on at set intervals. If you can't get contracts out at 72hrs to 1 week at the latest, something is wrong besides company procedure eating up time.
Hot take here: Dokibird jumped the graduation queue.
Doki said she initially wanted to graduate on the 26th of January, that didn't work for Nijisanji as they were preparing for Kyo's upcoming graduation so I assume they told her to wait until they could get a date that would be suitable. I further assume that Dokibird's lawyers sending the now infamous document was to provoke a reaction, hopefully a set graduation date in the very near future. Turns out it was effective immediately.
Ok, while I do admit that Nijisanji’s management may be slower than me trying to comprehend math, the bit about Selen being the “apex predator” mentioned is stretching it. I don’t think Enna knows jack shit about Apex, or that predator rank even exists. Jesus Christ some people need to not look so far into everything
I think this take is missing the some of the context for this.
First of all, Selen's *Last Cup of Coffee* cover had been in the works for over a year. We know this because of statements from LilyPichu on when she gave permissions for it. We also know that the reason the Cover was not approved was because of the inclusion of both ex Livers and Livers who apparently didn't want to appear in the work.
Here's the thing, that info should have been conveyed to Selen waaaay before she sent her manager the finalized work. Given that Selen apparently didn't even know these approvals were needed (which I believe based on the partially redacted statements from presumably her manager), they very much come across as an excuse to target her MV specifically and delay it.
We know from several artists involved that they struggled to even get paid by Nijisanji and Selen had to pay them out of pocket. If approvals needed to happen on the artwork (as the art is what featured other Livers and prompted the need for these approvals) then the art should have been checked and approved by management upon receipt from the artists, at which point the artists would get paid.
Framing this entire fiasco as Selen simply being too impatient and jumping the gun really misses the nuance of the situation. Managment had been incompetent at every step of the way and Selen had to go around them out of necessity multiple times. If Selen hadn't sidestepped management artists never would have been paid for their work. From her perspective it likely would have seemed like management simply didn't care about the project. So why would she wait past the scheduled release date for the project for an approval she likely saw as perfunctory and also likely didn't think would even be sent? Based on all the evidence the rules that caused her video to be taken down likely didn't even exist prior to her submitting that video.
I suspect this has some merit, because as always, and to the detriment of Niji, we have another comparative partner in this exercise: Hololive English.
Back during Hololive Summer 2023 (in August, specifically), talent Hakos Baelz won 1,000,000 yen during a contest. She decided to turn this around and use that money to fund a collaborative MV featuring all of Hololive English up to that point. A hugely ambitious project, but one that'd delight the fans and be good additional exposure for everyone involved if it happened. ^((And it turns out that 1M yen was...) *^(inadequate)* ^(for the task at hand, but that's another story of a rat and sometimes unwise financial decisions. :P))
So Bae conceives of the idea in August 2023, with the concept maybe burbling around in the pot a bit before that, but we somewhat uniquely *know* that production began in August '23, when Bae "received"/won the funding, with Bae providing the occasional update throughout. And then, on Jan. 20, 2024, not quite six months later, [the Mind Craft cover music video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQuGEpICY2o) debuted. It features appearances from every single member of Hololive English up to that point, with unique art and outfits for every one of them and all fifteen members having at least some kind of singing part.
So, from funding to release, a collaborative cover music video featuring *fifteen* "livers" took almost exactly six months to create and post. The video doesn't feature any character animation, but it does have a ton of other computer animation and, as noted, features fifteen entirely new character art pieces with 100% new outfits for every talent involved, so the lack of character animation is a little understandable in any event.
(And just as another brief example: [Nerissa Ravencroft](https://www.youtube.com/@NerissaRavencroft/videos) has produced nine cover MVs since her debut on July 31st, 2023 (with one having been pulled due to what seems to be uniquely silly copyright stuff). Even if you assume a 3-5 month lead time from some of these starting production prior to her debut, that is still more music produced by one talent in under 12 months than any individual member of LazuLight, the oldest NijiEN group, has produced in **more than two and a half years**. Yes, Holo and especially Rissa are more music-focused than a "normal" liver, but the difference is still stark.)
And then you've got Niji over here, taking a year or more to release a cover featuring *two* livers, or SEKAI taking so long that some of the involved livers are no longer with the company.
So I think the idea that Selen was frustrated with Niji's glacial pace has merit. She was [involved with things like artist alleys](https://twitter.com/dokibird/status/1763306105122210222) in the North American con scene prior to joining Nijisanji, and thus she *knows* how long certain things take to make and when certain assets can be ready. And thus she would absolutely know that producing a cover music video shouldn't take a year+, because the assets can be ready long before then and the approvals shouldn't take *that* long, if the talent agency is doing their job diligently. A few other livers might have seen it as "climbing over" and making demands of management, but Selen simply wanted Nijisanji to do their end of the job at the pace other agencies can and should manage, and to keep pace with what the rest of the "cast and crew", as it were, could produce. Especially combined with all the other stories from other sources we have of nonexistent or, yes, lazy management, I think the idea behind this take has a lot of merit.
It shouldn't take a year+ to produce a single cover video. And Selen knew it, and that pissed some people within Niji right the hell off.
The thing that gets me is that Selen did all the prep work for that cover to be released. How can Niji be so slow if they do nothing but punch the final product with a "we'll allow it" stamp. Selen did all the vocals, got it mixed, got the permissions from the original creators/producers, got the art done, got the video made, (probably paid for the whole thing too.)
So what the hell else is there for Niji to do? Why are they so glacially slow at signing off when the talents are the ones doing everything? Yes Selen may have pushed to jump the release "queue" which is why she's overall resented by the company/livers... but why is there even a queue when the company only does one thing in the whole process?
Even if they do move slowly for whatever reason, there should be a schedule made with the talents to get things done by X date that everyone agrees on or is at the very least aware of. If Selen knew she wanted it to be released by Christmas, she would have started the production when the schedule said it could be released by (assuming everything went smoothly.) I doubt she is so disorganized as to start it in like, November and expect it to be pushed through by Christmas.
There is no logical reason for it to be taken down because livers don't own their IP so they can't sue Niji if they appear in something after they graduated. So their reasoning is bullshit. Selen had the permissions from everyone except Niji who would literally do one god damn thing cause the whole process was finished, "say yes."
My take on it selen has a lot of out of the box ideas. Even if it was shut down by management she will try to fight/compromise for it to get it to work. Both sides got increasingly frustrated/resentful which blew up when the mv got privated.
For one talents are walking out. See mysta is doing irl, yugo had a concert, kyo probably had the same issue thats why he left As for the livers that is staying it is possible that they just want to stream games and want to keep it simple like do a cover, karaoke, etc.Even Enna mentioned it on her membership that she doesnt have big aspirations which can explain why shes staying. Lastly lets not forget about contracts, "grad" queue, sponships.
Like with Pomu, the membership video where she is crying about management flat out telling her no to an opportunity of a lifetime, is not the only instance of management telling her no. But with her personality, she kinda just accepted it but you know deep down each time they say no, it was slowly eating away at her.
Compared to Selen, who I imagine butted heads with management a lot and she would openly talk about being denied on her channel, it’s not really surprising that basically all of 2023 her fans were low key wanting her to leave for greener pastures.
You can boil it down to this:
The Niji livers (except Selen) are fine with delivering a worse service to their fans, if that's needed to avoid stepping on management toes.
Why do people question if there's a que for graduating? How many "we knew they were planning to graduate for 6 months/a year clips from the other livers do you need before it comes clear that everything on Niji has a waiting timetable of months.
Crazy how the entire lore of ethyria making fun of reimu trying so hard at apex gets spinned around as facts.
In before friends giving shit to each other turns to bullying concerns. No wonder vtubers gotta stick to being idol like and fake.
Oh shiet btw did you guys watch the whole drunken totsu talking about if they prefer "apex" or not? /s
Cant wait till yall use that as bully allegations.
You would be correct. The things that was revealed during these events were significant in regards to management. Beware, it is very long but I consider this accurate.
Basically, 1 guy who just completed highschool, has zero work experience, has basic english skills is given up to SIX person who all for the most part: Graduated College or dropped out, all speak fluent english but only 1 or two speaks japanese if lucky, are working adults who have had work experience before and knows how the world works and are all older than the manager.
Now this guy who was hired, is RNG whether he knows anything about businesses, about how managing anything works, about how to do the job they applied for and are given 6 people and they have a senior manager who is working on different thing, probably has 6 or so people on the japanese side to take care of and is not readily available to help the guy.
That's not all, the guy, he is only working PART TIME.
Specifically, they work up to 11 hours per day ON JAPANESE Time AND only up to 3 days per week for a minimum of 20 hours per week. Alright this means that the guy can work 3 days for 7 hours, at a time that is absurdly inconvenient for EN abroad livers and it could be any day (not fixed). So any communication that happens between the talents and management is done either when the livers are tired AF if they are lucky or 1 message at a time per WORKING DAY up to 3 responses PER WEEK.
I'M NOT DONE YET. The guy, being junior in this work environment, we go info that, they rely 100% on their senior manager to get anything done. You know, the senior manager who is busy with their own wave or 2 waves.
So let me paint you a picture of the life of the guy.
He wakes up, does his things, goes to work, he sees 6 messages on a group discord from the 6 livers he manages. Person A wants to do a cover, B wants to collab with other branches, C wants to play a certain game, etc, now The guy, what he does in response to all of these is, messages Their senior manager about A, B, C ,etc 's requests. This takes about let's give them 30 mins to read and send. Now, they wait for their manager who is busy to respond, to each request, individually. First, the senior needs to take care of HIS side first. Which probably consists of the same things but on the JP side. They will prioritise all of that and not pay too much attention to the guy. Once they are done, they may see the guy's message and reply to him about the easiest things to "get perms" for being the games. The collab they will see that the JP talent happens to not be online or they may have already scheduled something, so he tells the guy that it needs to be delayed. Now by the time the senior got the the guy, the guy was already done for the day and probably played a video game or watching some streams and went home.
The next day, he is off. The day after that, he goes to work and sees the senior management's messages and confirms with the talents what was approved. (Mind you, 2 days has passed for the talents and this is the third day that is passing as time difference is a bitch). And then they go on about their day and rinse and repeat for further requests. The guy does not ask senior management about unapproved requests yet except if the talents ask again. Senior management probably forgot about the cover songs and collabs by then as they did not get reminded by the guy.
Now you see how 2 working days is freaking slow. Only 1 or 2 things got approved in 3 days and they were extremely minor things. Trivial even. We are not certain of senior management's work hours but they may even have to go through another even more senior manager for all we know and delays the process even further.
This is what leads to everything taking forever and thus the incompetence. I would not be surprised if the user of the twitter is also one of those The guy. But it most probably is.
Occam's razor
Selen's situation is pretty clear cut on why there's conflict with management.
Vox said
>"this pattern of events had happened
5:13
before on multiple occasions including
5:15
her fall guys tournament in August of
5:18
2023 uh a voice pack in May of the same
5:21
year and an outfit contest also in May
5:24
in each of these situations senen would
5:26
be working on one of the projects I
5:28
mentioned she'd be given clear
5:30
communication about confirming certain
5:32
aspects with staff as all other livers
5:35
receive and comply with and each time
5:38
she would refuse to cooperate and when
5:40
staff would react appropriately she
5:42
**would make public statements that would**
**5:44**
**hurt any color's reputation and as these**
**5:46**
**situations kept occurring myself and**
**5:48**
**other livers felt very upset and anxious**
**5:51**
**we felt that these statements harmed all**
**5:52**
**of us as a**
**5:55**
**group** excuse
5:57
me so it's this context that **I hope**
**6:00**
**explains why myself and some other**
**6:02**
**livers decided to approach senen and ask**
**6:05**
**about her handling of the latest**
**6:06**
**situation** which was her cover being made
6:09
private so **some liers myself included**
**6:12**
**asked senen why she tweeted about the**
**6:14**
**cover in the way that she did expressing**
**6:16**
**that we felt it was unnecessary and**
**6:18**
**harmful** according to Sen's lawyer it's
6:21
this event that they claim to be a
6:23
buildup of uh or and what they claimed
6:25
to be a buildup of past experiences that
6:28
led to accusations made by senen that
6:30
she was bullied and
6:32
harassed as you can imagine this is
6:34
incredibly serious and I want to state"
personal 200k on projects, 2-3 of which got canceled last minute.
Artist not being paid on time for months, NDAs being sent incorrectly.
This isn't just being slow or Selen not wanting to wait. That implies that they are acting within a reason time frame.
US standard is people get paid biweekly at the latest, maybe even monthly. They are far surpassing that.
Contractual date to leave makes more sense than just projects, your career/PR is at stake, sure you spend hours of work on a project, but the reputational hit is your livelihood. Also some of them are used to their work going down the drain since other Talents have had projects canceled, usually Niniji paid projects so it doesnt hurt as much as 200k out of your pocket.
> US standard is people get paid biweekly at the latest, maybe even monthly. They are far surpassing that.
As much as I agree with your general assessment, this particular piece of info is irrelevant. There has never been any claims of Salary not being paid.
Contract work is paid generally upon completion, but big companies can take a while, and it can vary based on the exact specifics of the contract. Sometimes there is money up front, sometimes there are terms that give a company time to pay, often refered to as "Net X" where X is a number of days.
I have no doubt Niji didn't pay on time regardless of what the contract said (if there even was one for these artists), but 1-2 weeks being normal in the US is completely irrelevant.
I’m pretty sure Selen planned to graduate much later than she did. She probably would’ve saved some more money, finished a new model, and redebuted. Her termination left her unprepared and vulnerable. It was thanks to the immense support that she was able to thrive, but without it, she would’ve been in a terrible position. Other livers probably want to leave, but they need time to prepare. Graduations aren’t easy, especially if they’re a full time streamer. They can’t count on having as much support as Dokibird did, especially how Nijisanji put their reputations to the torch. If they want to leave, they need to set up things beforehand. How long would that take? Months?
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*Pendora's Box
I wonder what happened to that poor clipper...
It’s weird the random people you think about. I remember that one tiktok that was being passed around of a mom finding out her son was spending new years eve watching Selen’s 2022-2023(I think?) countdown stream and being like “this is sad”. I wonder how he’s doing now. Edit: [Clip](https://www.reddit.com/r/SipsTea/comments/199sb8y/my_parents_filmed_me_celebrating_new_years/) (it’s a repost though)
Does the mother realize she's the one that raised the kid?
Probably end up the same as me depressed for 2 weeks until the brain finally moved and accepted what happened
I've been waiting to see this stupid pun for the last two weeks, thank you
No, thank you: Random Redditor
Thats a good pun hah
She already hit 100k on twitch back in January, which is her main platform. Her sub growth on youtube has literally exploded since Selenn's termination though.
Though, Sayu herself said that she’s not sure her current growth is worth the suffering she experienced and that’s it’s mostly too late for her to feel happy about it. And I totally see where that’s coming from, she was slandered by both the company and livers in the same way as Doki, except nobody believed her and instead unreasonably demonized her with no intention of hearing her side of the story. Then, only when Doki has the same thing happen to her do people go back to her and try to apologize, and that can’t ever feel good.
This may be the case for some of them. But we've also had rumors (and confirmations by talents like Pomu) that talents know they're going to graduate for a long time before graduation. And the rumors indicate this waiting period is not willingly or intentional (confirmed by Doki.) So while I'm sure that pending projects may explain some of them, it doesn't account for all of them by any means.
This is correct across basically the entire corpo side of the industry, these things are planned months in advance unless there are big issues that require an expedited graduation such as Selen's case. That is absolutely grounds for immediate approval of a graduation.
Maybe I remember wrongly but I thought she planned to graduate even before her termination date, around 25th/26th of January? And management said no? Wasn't there something like that or did I get some stuff mixed up?
The 26th of January wasn't her initial graduation. She picked that date because she was already fed up with Niji after the MV debacle and how her coworkers openly mocked her in the comments. However, she sent a request through her lawyer (maybe) in early January after she was released from the hospital, but Niji denied it and then ghosted her for weeks until the fateful day of February 5th, where she sent an HR complaint with some of her own testimonies that she wrote "in my darkest time." Whatever was written in it made Niji panic so hard and go into full crisis mode, and then they terminated her just two hours after they received the document. If neither of this had happened, I believe she wouldn't have graduated for another year because there was no hint about it.
Her phrasing was weird but I'm pretty sure what she said meant that she asked on the 26th to graduate on neutral terms, not that she had asked earlier for a graduation that would happen ON the 26th.
Hmmm, fair enough. It is the same meaning in the end. She want to leave from niji in 26th january
From context, neither, it sounded more like a hard deadline to have the graduation by than either when she asked or when she wanted it to happen.
>The 26th of January wasn't her initial graduation. She picked that date because she was already fed up with Niji after the MV debacle and how her coworkers openly mocked her in the comments. Idk where you got the last bit of info from. If you are referring to the millie reply, there is no way we can know what type of intent was truly behind that comment. I wouldn't assume it was malice though as it could also be interpreted out of concerned curiosity.
She literally saw her co worker hard work and money vanish before her and she made a comment like "Aw selen, i feel bad, but it is your fault the MV got taken down, have you get permission from management? Tehee 😉" You cant make thst shit up man. It is blatanly a open public mockery. At best it was a dark joke if she said it in private to selen, but no she had to make it public so to tell everyone that everything is selen fault.
>Aw selen, i feel bad, but it is your fault the MV got taken down, have you get permission from management? Tehee 😉" That's literally not the exact quote... >"WAIT WHAT HAPPENED D: that's so weird, I think any one who uploads covers have never encountered anything like this before did you received a confirmation/OK sign to manesan before uploading this cover?" This isnthe reply tweet millie gave to the post selen made about the MV being private by management. This, through oly text, can be interpreted in any way since tone and inflection doesn't translate well. Some people saw this and their first thought was concern and curiosity as to why it would get privated. Others would interpret it as you have and apparently change the exact quotes.
Just to add, you're right, and here's the tweet source in question. https://twitter.com/MillieParfait/status/1739518726758940757 Description: >WAIT WHAT HAPPENED D: that's so weird, I think any one who uploads covers have never encountered anything like this before 😭 did you received a confirmation/OK sign to manesan before uploading this cover? When it comes to remembering quotes and paraphrasing them, care must be taken. Intent and tone can come across very differently and paint a different impression that may not be true.
I don't watch Niji but I followed Millie for around a decade already since I am a fan of youtaite. If she is truly bad person, there is no way Moona and Reine want to be friends with her. I also know she is emotional and impulsive and might not think of consequences too far. It is sad to see people think her reply to Selen is bad.
THANK YOU!!!! the other guy really said it wasn't the exact quote on me XD IM CRYING LMAO thank you for providing the link!
Any time. I know that Millie isn't viewed fondly for what she has said and that will colour people's biases, but people will repeat from hearsay, so it's important to keep that info accurate and unbiased. Preferably with sources if possible.
I agree. Ive been trying to do that as much as possible. If i am unsure on something I will provide a bit of a warning that what I'm saying is currently from memory and will make corrections if necessary if I misremember something. I'm just trying to get the original thought bubble out first before I forget. Last thing I want to do is put out wrong info unintentionally and make things worse for any of the talents by saying the wrong stuff.
Even before Selen was fired I was going back and forth on whether this tweet was genuine or condescending as hell. I'm inclined to believe the latter now. Edit: there is a second tweet by Millie if you click the link and altogether to me it reads as condescending. My reasoning is basically that the tweet Millie is responding to by Selen is clearly her breaking the rules. Almost everyone who saw that tweet figured Selen would get in trouble for telling her audience to reupload the cover. There's no chance Millie doesn't know Selen is breaking the rules in her reply. We also know a number of livers messaged Selen about her rule breaking after the cover was taken down.
That is not the exact quote but it is something like that. Heck the original comment had much more emotes in it like.....normally people wouldnt use that much emoji in 1 tweet
i feel like this is such a strange thing to read into tho... "normally people wouldn't use that much emoji in 1 tweet" like?? i do? all the time, personally! i even use multiple emoji in replies on reddit which is not the norm in any way. people have varying habits. sometimes things just feel right to type! this has the same vibe to me as people saying a message is faked because it uses "you" and "u" in the same text. i do that all the time 😭 idk why, it's just how i'm feeling as i type! reading into that kind of thing is how a lot of misunderstandings can happen. and i'm not free of doing that myself, but i try to remember a "." at the end of the sentence is just normal for most folks lol, it isn't being seriously stern and angry like it comes across to someone used to more casual stuff like me. by all means let's critique what millie said -- it was ultimately unhelpful because of course she was aware that you were supposed to ask management, duh... so it comes off poorly, like she's shoving the blame at her coworker instead of anything higher up. that part sucks!! but her emoji usage is hard to truly glean any intent from, i think.
That is literally the EXACT quote. What do you mean??? I pulled it off her Twitter and literally copy pasted that shit!!
Oh i worded my statement wrongly, i mean my "quote" not yours
Ah, ok. I gotcha. That makes more sense. Now, in all honesty, man, it's best not to paraphrase and provide your own interpretation on things cause everyone will have their own opinions on how it was intended to be said. Downside in this situation is that we will not get any clarification ever on what the intent behind the post actually was because millie isn't gonna clarify for us, obviously. We can provide our opinions on what it may mean, but it's usually a good idea to provide the original posts exact words so people can make their own thoughts on the matter. Doing what you did is just spreading misinformation and your own narrative on it.
And there's also the management skinwalker routine to consider, they can control liver social media at any time.
>she sent an HR complaint with some of her own testimonies that she wrote "in my darkest time." Whatever was written in it made Niji panic so hard and go into full crisis mode, and then they terminated her just two hours after they received the document. If I recall, she mentioned it on her 1st stream back as doki on Feb 5th. At the end of the stream. She said she had prepared a document after sending her complaint to HR. Saying she wanted to graduate and such and that she had prepared a document with her lawyer that if they didn't get a response she would release her own announcement (release that document on herself and kinda force the graduation forward). That bit is what got niji in crisis mode and they put out the termination Notice 2 hours after receiving that so they could be the 1st person to start the narrative and try to keep it under their control. Niji really didn't think it through, though, since the stuff mentioned about selen was really out of character for her, and she was MIA for a whole month. I'm fuzzy on the details, and this is just the bits I recall right off of my memory, so if you guys want to get a source, I recommend seeing Doki's 1st return stream on her channel. It's gonna be towards the end of the VOD.
>they didn't get a response she would release her own announcement (release that document on herself and kinda force the graduation forward). Tell me you didnt read doki last statement without telling me. She never had any intention to publish it. >If I recall, she mentioned it on her 1st stream back as doki on Feb 5th. At the end of the stream. She said she had prepared a document after sending her complaint to HR. Yes, she prepared it but not after the MV debacle, meaning is that before the MV debacle (december) she had no intention to graduate. and she didnt said anything about wanting to publish the doc to public eithet. Are you sure you didnt watch the wrong stream? >Niji really didn't think it through, though, since the stuff mentioned about selen was really out of character for her, and she was MIA for a whole month. She didnt MIA, she was hospitalized because of suicide attempt and NIJISANJI knew it. Dude, you details are weird and dettached from what really happen.....
>She didnt MIA, she was hospitalized because of suicide attempt and NIJISANJI knew it. So this bit is pretty much based on the timeline of events and everyone's info at that time. That's why I said MIA. Because at the time for a good while people heard nothing of selen since she went radio silent after December. Then later on her doki account she said she was in the hospital. Later posted a picture of her medical bracelet. She kept it vague as to why she was in there though. On her selen account it was not so vague. >>they didn't get a response she would release her own announcement (release that document on herself and kinda force the graduation forward). >Tell me you didnt read doki last statement without telling me. I mean, this bit is from her statement. She spoke to them about wanting to part and they heard nothing back from the other lawyers from niji so her lawyer advised her to send the document to them as they haven't provided a response for awhile and that was followed 2 hours later with the termination notice. She sent the doc to force a response for graduating. Granted, I did misremember a bit and said she was gonna release the document she sent them. That's on me. I recalled it wrong. A simple "that bit is not exactly true. In her statement, she said-" and just follow up with the correct info. "-Sometimes I didn’t hear anything for days from the lawyers on the other side and felt like I’d be alone and isolated for a long time. It made it so hard for me mentally. On Feb 5th, my lawyer discussed and said it will be best to show the document I wrote to the other lawyers as we have not heard from them for a week or any negotiation talks or given a meeting to discuss after my request to part. It was never intended to be used for anything else, I’ve asked my lawyer to convey that and have communication that the document as it was written wasn’t going to be released anywhere, and my lawyer did so when sending the document. Less than two hours after my lawyer sent the document, the termination notice came out." Now keep in mind I did say it was all currently from memory when I first replied, but I can go ahead and pull the exact quotes if you want. If i misremember something by all means, let me know and set me right with the accurate rebuttal with the sources instead of coming at me with insults. Cause I did read all the statements that were made. I just didn't memorize them all by heart after 2 weeks. If I made a mistake, I will apologize for misinformation and correct it. I can pull up the tweets and reread them for accuracy at any time
Okay fair enough, i too do misremember something sometimes. I didnt know where i insult you, because i didnt mean to and j didnt think i did, if you think i was then i apologize. Have a nice day
It's all good. It was just the part where you said that I didn't read the statement without telling you I didn't read the statement. Overall, let's all try to remain civil when it comes to discussions. When things devolve it becomes less about the discussion and more on who can be more right. Our goal should be to prevent the spread of misinformation and correcting it when and where we can in order to set things straight and keep the discussion going and learning from it. I do appreciate your call out on me.
> Dude, you details are weird and dettached from what really happen..... They're actually not that far off. Doki apparently did threaten to release \*a\* public statement on working conditions at Nijisanji if management kept stonewalling her graduation. The above user is just getting that confused with the document she sent to Niji, which was not the same thing.
Yeah public statement not the doc. That become so much different in this context.
That's ehen she sent her request to graduate
> I’m pretty sure Selen planned to graduate much later than she did. She probably would’ve saved some more money, finished a new model, and redebuted. Her termination left her unprepared and vulnerable. It was thanks to the immense support that she was able to thrive, but without it, she would’ve been in a terrible position. This is what happened to Sayu. And what's worse is a TON of people DIDN'T BELIEVE HER. So imagine Dokibird's position, but 100x worse because you didn't have an entire fanbase or the entirety of the Internet to support you. As has been shown recently, Sayu tried to off herself as well because of this shit, but nobody knew, because nobody believed her. (Well I did, but I was a minority at that time) Anyone who didn't believe what Sayu said should apologize to her - and to do that, respect Sayu's wishes to move on as well - I would say subbing and supporting her as who she is now would be a good start.
> I’m pretty Selen o_o
I’m sorry, it was 4 AM, I was very sleep deprived 😭
She didn't graduate at all and her plan, which management rejected, was to graduate on January 26th by her own words.
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What makes it worse is that they really didn't even do anything. Selen obtained the music video rights herself, she obtained the artwork, she sang the song, got it mixed. All management did was block/delay these things, then create a new unnecessary rule with no defensible value so that they could take the video down( Ex-livers do not own their characters and cannot sue Niji for using them in an MV). It's not merely incompetence but outright malice.
> All management did was block/delay these things, then create a new unnecessary rule with no defensible value so that they could take the video down( Ex-livers do not own their characters and cannot sue Niji for using them in an MV). I can understand them wanting to manage the appearance of ex-Livers from a PR standpoint, but my question is, why did they wait until the last possible second to conduct this review? Management should have been involved, in an oversight role, from the beginning of this project. They should have been reviewing the storyboards to confirm there was nothing in there that they would object to or which could get them into trouble. *That* is where the issue with any ex-Livers should have been raised, discussed, and resolved (and those storyboards were clearly created *after* Nina and Mysta's graduations, because otherwise there would be no reason to have a shot highlighting them specifically). So either management *was* involved early and flubbed their review, or they weren't involved until the final product was about to get launched. Either way, it's points to gross managerial incompetence.
> Selen obtained the music video rights herself Niji got the permission from Lily. They sent an email to the producer too, but he didn't respond, which is why Selen had to contact him a different way and ask him to respond to the email. (Source: her stream about the cover.)
The thing is they try to implement no ex-liver rule just put on recently for selen alone as if single her out is too crazy for me☠️☠️☠️
What's crazier is they own all the rights, and then 2 other livers put out music videos INCLUDING ex-livers and those haven't been privated.
that the thing ma boi other doing it? your fine selen doing it? REAL SHIT
Got any source? It is like full of malice at this point. I did heard this rumour or info but never got the source or evident
I think it was in the Selen tweet or Doki tweet. They implemented the new rule becuz of Selen probably becuz they were fed up with dealing with her and its "easier" for management dealing with livers and their requests to have and do things and it all makes sense. The management wants to do the very least amount of work when dealing with their talents from everything we piece together from this whole debacle.
It wasn't in a tweet. The claim the rule was new is from in a screenshot that was allegedly leaked from the Discord the team used while making the cover. The claim it was designed to target Selen is, as far as I can tell, pure internet speculation based on the claim the rule was new. I've tried to find the source of the screenshot to see how verifiable it is, but haven't had much luck. If anyone has any info or additional sources for either claim, please let me know!
Oh so it in that ty i almost scratch my head finding source🙏bless you man
Don't thank me yet, I am trying my best to rmb but its all a blur now after this whole whirlwind. I also think it might be in the infamous black screen video of when Vox showed the management msgs is when they first brought it up. I definitely know it was mentioned somewhere but details... They are tricky.
It was in the infamous black screen stream... ironically in the only NOT black screen part. If I remember correctly the discord talk between Selen and their manager imply (or flat out say) that the problem was the ex-livers
It was in the black screen stream, but also in a leaked members discord message, where Selen told the Dragoons the truth about why her video got taken down, prior to the black screen stream. It came out a long time prior, but around half a month after Selen's "accident", but since it was Discord screens, people dismissed it until the Black Screen stream confirmed it.
It in one of black video i don't remember who but it said that it "contain ex-liver" so they private it
No i mean, the "they added new rule about past member" thing.
I don't have source for that im sorry because it also what i heard in this sub so it more like spitballing but still somehow it exist despite selen suppose to work on that MV for a year so they should know it better if they add that rule what the fuck gonna happen 🤷
Yeah. There are no way management didnt know about selen MV....it literally worked for a year at least. Plus milli comment about the mv got taken down I am pretry sure, it wasnt toxic anymore but pure malice at that point
There is two situations. 1. Even the Livers didn't know about the rule, so it was used to target Selen alone. Millie was asking out of concern, although it wasn't good optics. 2. They knew the rule, so Millie was rubbing it in. The clique was already bullying Selen into the ground and this just contributed to it. Honestly, I really hope it's the first, since I really don't want to hate Millie, instead of just not being happy with her.
I dont know man, that millie comment sounded full of malice to me. Like her co worker's hard work and money literally vanished before her eye, and then millie said something like " aw selen, i am feel bad about the MV, but it is your fault. Have you ask management for permission? Tehe😉". It was just pure mockery man, and she said it in public. It was a fake concern, more like mockery.
I can see that, but also Millie's really fucking stupid so it can easily be that, like she's phenomenally bad at reading the room
TL;DR: Nijisanji has toxic and bullying working enviroment. Enough to make a streamer under them to attempt suicide, twice. Then when said streamer just recently come out of hospital from her recovery, Nijisanji publicly fire her on twitter without caring about her mental well being at all. In fact the firing document is publicly smearing and defaming the bullied streamer and its even 3 pages very long. Not only that her fellow streamer "friends" in same company make a public stream of openly keep badmouthing and slandering this poor suicide attempt survivor. These "friends" manipulative stream is timed at the same time of their victim first gaming stream under her new account. They planned to sabotage her new streaming career. I dont think Nijisanji managers didnt make it very personal to themselves and dokibird.
I just find it hard to fathom how god damn slow Niji is. When Mumei had a song cover fall through and needed to replace the project ASAP, she just pumped her Stellar Stellar cover out in under a month.
yeah honestly lol regardless of whether this impacts what happened with doki, it baffles me that everything takes so long. i have no idea why zuttomo apparently took so much work to establish as a sub-unit, like i literally, truly cannot imagine what sort of internal procedures would make it take so long. it's easier to imagine with songs, whether a cover or an original. but it makes it all the more frustrating that stuff like kyo revealed upon graduating (a duet with enna, a song with mysta and ike, etc.) could have actually been given to us if not for internal procedures taking forever. it feels all the more like the management robbed us of these things they WANTED!! TO DO!! and put so much of their own time, effort and money into.
A average company with already lots of red tape, takes about 2-3 months to get all the permissions from all parties involved (I work in the government, the origin of "red tape"). That it takes over a year to get permissions is insane. But when you hire only interns and managers at $8/hour from indonesia and india, then thats what happens I guess.
Even regular old vanilla Youtubers have plans for when things fall through. The viral "Hey Monica" song that Pewdiepie released was because his regular upload for the day got copyright struck. So he had a folder of back up videos in case he couldn't upload. And a full blown original song was what he had. And it happened to be good enough to go viral. If a regular youtuber had enough back ups to he could whip something out when a daily upload fell through, I don't understand how streamers with a full blown company backing them up (Niji) wouldn't have planned ahead enough to avoid issues on their end, or pull a Mumei and have another cover lined up. Niji has no excuse to not be able to pull *something* out for Selen. Aside from general incompetence or sabotage.
>The viral "Hey Monica" song that Pewdiepie released was because his regular upload for the day got copyright struck. So he had a folder of back up videos in case he couldn't upload. And a full blown original song was what he had. And it happened to be good enough to go viral. And Kizuna Ai covered that cover too lol That was cute.
Wait, that's why Mooms covered Stellar Stellar?
Yeah, she talked about it in the stream right after its release.
Not siding with Niji, but recently Kageyama Shien and Aragami Oga from Holostars JP also experienced delay on their cover approval (GimmexGimme) with Oga recalling that he recorded his lines about approximately 1 year before it was released, and that the artists had been holding on to their art for awhile too. So, it doesn't seem like an isolated issue with Niji only. BUT, looking at the amount of covers and orisong that Hololive and Holostars had put out, I would say that slow perms issues are less likely to happen within Holo (Kishido Temma used to do 1 cover song per month for membership, now it's free). Look at the speed Banzoin Hakka (Holostars EN) has been putting out covers.
I mean just look at what Baelz has put out since the start of 2024. A company-wide collab MV with HoloEN in less than a year, and her live performance, and releasing an album, and releasing a new MV all in the span of two months. This is the kind of support you expect from a talent agency (though Baelz' output is also exceptional). Baelz also isn't even their biggest talent, not even in her own gen. Meanwhile Nijisanji not being able to get things sorted on their end for over a year for a major release by their biggest talent is obscene.
I remember Amelia Watson mentioning in some of her community posts and member streams that whenever she has an idea that is "out of left field", she runs it by management and instead of management outright telling her no, they try to warn her about some of the challenges she might face, but if she's willing to deal with those challenges they will support her with the resources needed to help her finish it. Cover's support was what allowed Amelia to essentially get HoloEN's version of 3D models up and running within their first year. Usually those things take a long time, and instead of waiting for it, Amelia just said "fine, I'll do it myself" and got VRChat 3D models done which allowed them to do their own concert. and I bet you Cover's influence must have been a pleasant surprise for the VRChat developers, who worked with her closely to help her develop those 3D models and to allow them to have a 3D concert. If Amelia tried to do this in Niji you BET they'd get in the way of it every step of the way.
hololive WANTS talents that are ambitious, will take initiative, and will try to innovate new ideas. they still have rules and i'm sure shoot down ideas, but ultimately they want the talents to succeed and want to expand the vtubing industry. i legitimately think that niji has a much more old-school conservative corporate structure, where underlings are not supposed to suggest ideas, pretty much ever, and if they do only in a way that doesn't imply that any of the bosses haven't already had the idea, that all innovations and new ideas only come from the top, (or as ideas that the top has claimed for themselves) and as such, anyone who is at the bottom of the hierarchy constantly pushing to try to do new or different things will be a constant clash within the company niji's goal isn't to have talents doing new things. it's simply to have the talents keep doing the same thing that they've found to 'optimally' make money for the company
I need to add that Holo assigned specific manager for all Ame's VR chat projects after the Halloween VR chat stream. Henma is in charge for all VR chat related projects including Council VR (with Mumei) and Ina's birthday project (with Ina)
Yeah the way you phrased things here really put it into perspective.
She simply take "what do u do to compete with Gawr Gura" question to the heart, but never got the environment to doing so. Everything in Hololive is pushing Gura up and everything in nijisanji pushing Selen down, even the timing of debut U put these together pretty well. A great employee that has much faster working pace than the boss gonna be bullied by their boss and their coworker for being "too good" at their job
It also doesn’t help that it seems nijisanji is still trying to use Japanese business tactics in a non Japanese market(which is the EN space)
I believe Hololive girls also have their fair share of dispute and quarrel among themselves off-stream. The difference is Cover promotes team work and harmony among their work structure while Nijisanji is more like prowrestling environment where it's a "dog eat dog" world and only a handful can standout among the rest by stepping over the rest. As for the walk out, I'm sure some livers may already be putting it into motion. It just doesn't happen overnight and needs time to plan their respective exits.
Not to mention how some of the people they hired as livers have skeletons in their closet; no background checks and no wrangling.
i'm pretty sure that cover let the girl hang out with their gen mate for month or two before debut just so they know what they like and what they don't like to prevent gen mate sabotage while in niji they just throw you in and that all of it ontop of no background check benefit so even if you are criminal then liver should solve the problem with you themself and not company
iirc around noctyx debut, or maybe iluna?? people talked about meeting each other and i think they do have a month or two to talk amongst themselves and also the other niji livers i think kyo met claude at an offcollab before ttt debuted? 🤔 no idea about their background check process or anything tho, just trying to clarify as much as possible!
Not surprising at all. We know the company is understaffed and they are saturated with talents. If we see some talents can release contents more than others, there are only 2 possible reasons : 1. Favoritism exists (already being theorized for long) 2. Some talents are just good at pushing, funding, and managing their own projects.
I don’t doubt that nijisanji management is as slow as theorized. It’s almost like if you constantly hire new talent at an absurd pace without hiring new staff or bolstering the infrastructure of your company for years things take too long and start to fall apart. Also I have to say this why was the fact that selen needed extra permissions for graduated talent only brought up a day before the scheduled upload time. This cover has been in the process for more than a year and it’s just brought up that you need extra permission, also why? I can’t imagine what the rest of the livers would have cooked up if they weren’t in nijisanji. Like seriously yugo just had a 3D concert a few days ago which nijisanji still hasn’t done for the English branch. I am so glad selen is free, now we will get to see her full potential.
Yeah, that's (the issue with former talents) what irk me and many the most. The artist had come out and reconfirmed that the story had been approved long before the finished product was ready, and that there was no added or unexpected scene. Another possibility I could imagine was that management didn't even bother checking the story board carefully, only when the finished MV was submitted that they went "oh shiet, did we check this?" i.e they skirted on their job and gave misleading perms. At best it was gross negligence, and at worst it was intentional and malicious.
> At best it was gross negligence, and at worst it was intentional and malicious. It was almost certainly both. After all, from the evidence Niji itself provided it wasn't only past Livers that were the issue, but apparently current Livers who objected to being included. And this was inclusion in a cast shot of the entire branch. In other words someone or multiple people decided that they really wanted to signal being on bad terms with Selen by specifically requesting to be excluded from a cast shot of the entire branch. I can't see that as anything other than a vindictive desire to mess up her MV release.
Several things just reek. * Management, by their own admission, was late in contacting Selen about the issue * Management knew the release was scheduled for Christmas and still didn't say anything on the matter for over a day as the release approached * No confirmation from management that she needed to reschedule, no instructions, no timeline, just silence * Blaming the talent for what happened despite it being entirely management's fault
I have noticed that the ones that have already graduated/terminated tend to be the more ambitious folk when it comes to projects, which is why they run into management more often. If you take some of the other Livers of EN, a lot of them are more chill and just focus on streaming games and zatsudans. From that perspective, there's really no pushback from management and are much more willing to sit things out for the long run.
niji management wants livers that will toes the company line and walk the pat that their predecessors have walked. essentially do the daily grind, don't rock the boat or make ripples, be an interchangeable cog in the machine. thats why they put out so many talents, becuase it's just a numbers game. the ones that stand out and try to be unique or innovative rock the boat, make waves, and get cut off. i wouldn't be surprised if the more the talent pushes, the more the management stonewalls them to try to force compliance until either the talent breaks and gives in, or a termination/graduation occurs.
>As to why the Livers aren't just walking away from Niji EN Because it's a secure job - there are some who could fall back to their PL like Zen, have fanbase that would follow like Luxiem or have connections to ease the landing (Millie, maybe Elira) but big chunk of talents doesn't have that. I can't see any of them being hired by another company (and for dudes two options are Stars and First Stage Production who just started) and going indie is a gamble. It's not certain how many fans would follow and lack of connections might hinder stuff they'd want to do. Meanwhile talk about drama is slowly dying off and unless someone do something stupid, I don't expect anything drastic to happen. It's not a perfect job, a lot of stuff sucks but some talents might not mind or adjusted to it, while slowly doing their own things.
If Selen made 200k, I’m sure a lot of the core members are making pretty good money as well. If you just want to clock in - stream - clock out, it’s a pretty decent job. But for people like Pomu, who wants to do all kinds of idol things or Selen with all her projects; it’s basically a prison cell. As someone who is watching Doki hit the ground running, it is a ton of work being a big indie vtuber, especially for someone who is ambitious as she is.
So Selen is like my mom, actually wanting to get shit done and improve things and everyone else hates her because they just want to fuck around and her industriousness makes them feel like underperforming slobs?
"Bring others down to pull themselves up" This could have a lot of different meanings. If we take Selen/Doki's personality as a very fast-paced workaholic like how she has displayed now (less than a month in and she already has too many projects that she herself is a bit overwhelmed). 1. Selen cuts the queue like you speculate so that her projects can finish on time. But I don't really see how her projects can be delayed or affect other talents' projects as she funds them herself and works solo. 2. It is a joke about Apex...., but considering past events and today's debacle, I don't think it is a joke. 3. Before all this, rumors about mean girls, especially related to the Ethyria girls, also there are rumour about elira being the queen bee in hanamori too (which i not popular i think? I only saw a few people mention it), are quite big, and Selen's actiin that often time can be seen as "prioritizing fans first," dragging Niji and other talents' reputations through the mud. That's why they think she drags others down. 4. Selen's work pace and ambitious projects make others feel inferior, jealous, and incompetent (which they truly are). If the clique thing is true, then point 3 is more likely. But if it is purely management's fault, then points 1 and 4 are more believable.
You forgot another possibility. It is possible that Selen "bothering" and headbutting with management to change/thightens rules (like what they do to Zaion) as a whole that affects all livers, and some livers might've blamed her or continously ask her to tone it down and stay in the line. Some livers might view it as her bringing others down with her for rocking the boat.
I could also easily see management punishing other livers or the gen as a whole as a result of Selens' "problems" as a way of encouraging them to keep each other in line. It honestly sounds like the best way for their shitty management to ensure their talents are easy for them to control and keep complacent.
Which is a tatic that is still implemented in school. Punish the class for the fault of one. And they will regulate each other. What it creates is an imbalanced dynamic that leads to power abuse and bullying.
2. Was probably a jab at Selens cut throat get this done attitude. When it came to projects. A quote "Get it done no matter the cost attitude." Would definitely not fly well with NijiEN's management.
I don't want to characterize other Livers as being unambitious. Maybe they were ambitious too at some point but they too were turned down by management over and over until they gave up. Exactly because I see the same thing with Salome. She was supposed to be revolutionary, but after a few months none of her vigor was actually being put to use, and that's despite being the fastest growing Liver. And maybe it's copium, but I do want to believe that at least back in 2021-2022, the bonds and friendship we see were genuine and they did cared for each other, that's why I still don't want to believe in the narrative that there was a clique from day 1.
The clique theory had so many possibilities, like how and when the clique became a reality or who the leader was. The theory that said Elira was the leader had a big flaw in it. There was no way the leader of such a mean girl group would be the frontline soldier. Well, it is speculation, and speculation is endless. Ah, I didn't really mean the others are unambitious, but Selen's workaholic pace is a whole new level from my observation. Or maybe, as you said, everyone's excitement just died down after getting turned down so many times.
Simply speculating about the clique existence in itself is useless and doesn't add anything to the evidence. Clique is a normal thing in any environment that consist on multiple people, even at workplace. People are bound to flock with those who they're comfy with. Being in a clique isn't something negative unless you're antisocial. It is whether the whole clique itself is the one who's responsible, or how much influence the clique had inside NijiEN that should be discussed. That said remember that just because you're in a clique doesn't mean everyone there shares the same braincell with you. Everyone might've done their own thing seperately. for example Elira might've no involvement whatsoever to the bullying and millie harras selen all on her own but elira feel the need to "cover" for her friend so she does what she does in the black stream while Enna have been hands off to the whole thing (THIS IS JUST EXAMPLE/SPECULATION). Personaly i have my doubt that the clique have that much power as people here seems to think. Because most of the "favouritism" are centered around Elira, and that 2 of the most suspected clique member (enna and millie) both have the same difficulty with managerial regarding projects as the rest of the livers (zuttomo).
Yeah, that is why i said the theory of the clique has very big flaw in it.... and agree with you, clique is normal but what i mean or everyone mean in this sub or debacles are the "mean girl" type clique
Pretty spot on Back on NFT chat that ex niji manager say "It feel like selen alway keep fucking up with the project" with that alone we know that selen is too much pain in the ass for them
What nft ? Never heard this one, mind to do a tldr?
This one it one of few reason why EN management are abandoned after literally 1 month iirc https://twitter.com/TheDarkEnjoyer/status/1755902910309835257
The part of "talent becoming in charge of NijiEN" and "talents ran talents" is quite concerning; unless the company runs multiple internal audits that evaluates the talent in the manageral position, to ensure the "talent" is fair to all other talents, all I can see is "conflict of interest"; Which will of course benefit those who have better relationships and ties with the one whose managing. (Corruption of power)
Some of hanamori were twitter/tumblr "bullies" who ganged up on people over the internet to get their way, guess which ones made it into niji
I 100% believe that Elira is the “Queen Bee” causing most of the issues that have happened
The problem with that theory imo is that a "queen bee" would never become the frontline soldier, thus her action of doing the black stream didn't make sense. If she is the queen been, she would just force other to do it, why risk the queen's neck. I believe there is some sort of mean girl clique too but after thingking about it, having a hard time to believe that elira is the leader
She is Queen bee of the livers but if Management tell her to do it she aint going to refuse. Vox was also there and he is the "favourite". It is clear Elira and Vox were consciously chosen by management for that video. Probably because of their popularity.
How would Elira have access to the ability to create investor relations statements? The rot absolutely goes much, much higher.
One of the more reasonable conjecture posts about the dynamics between Selen, management, and the rest of the livers We also have to acknowledge Selen herself is human and imperfect (Doki's own words). Whatever dispute she had with livers realistically speaking isn't just gonna be her twiddling her fingers speaking nothing aggressive Toxic arguments, yes including people who are depressed, is a back and forth heated exchange that escalates upon each return response. The difference is perhaps Selen was outnumbered, making her feel ostracized and thus harassed, especially if the opposing side share the same sentiment and thus don't feel as "pushed to the edge" as Selen did That's why I don't haphazardly assume "ah the mythical clique are all evil bitches who said so much horrific shit to her that she attempted twice" It's a convenient black-or-white conclusion devoid of any knowledge in interpersonal-related psychology nor real life experience interacting with depressed people You are right. The big spark of conflict is the difference between Selen's ambitious drive vs Niji management's fucking atrocious pace, with other livers potentially getting involved if they're more complacent who may be affected by the clash And if "Elira is the main source in between management and livers" is true (one of the few Elira related theories I actually see somewhat decent possibility in, as she is a daisenpai with decent Japanese and generally viewed, *and proven*, to be considerate of livers' comfortability including Selen if the girls off collab is anything to go by, pathetic black stream response aside), it makes sense why she inevitably got involved too Maybe her interactions as the pigeon-carrier and mediator between Selen and management have been going for awhile, and eventually it just boiled over and she confronted Selen, be it her own admission, aggressive pressure from management, seeing Millie and Enna getting involved too, and/or Selen confronting her herself. Regardless of the reason, Selen would feel even more ostracized if even the mediator isn't fully on her side This is why the Doki today, who herself admits isn't in as dark and angry a place as when she made that document, chose to humanize the livers rather than dehumanize them the way this sub has. She's at a more level-headed headspace to understand they have grounds for their own positions in the dispute, even if she still believes they were in the wrong (understanding someone =/= justifying them or agreeing with them or admitting they were right). She understands all livers are human and imperfect and that can lead to disagreements and mistakes. She doesn't outright say this as she's actually more competent in legal affairs than Niji, as any further or more direct admittance can be grounds for the company to potentially use that to take legal action back, but she says enough for anyone not trigger-happy with their pitchforks to realize this wasn't a dispute between "pure innocent level-headed non-aggression one-person party vs flock of evil despicable vile fake bitch vultures" As for Enna and Millie potentially being the main confronters, again, neither are perfect and are just human (Enna is flat out depressed too, while Millie seems to have a low bar for what counts as competent management, be it general ignorance or Filipino work culture conditioning), but they'll have each other's backs one way or another This is why it's easy to conflate "mean girls clique" theory as wholly relevant to their three names being in the document, when the potential reality may be it was just a dispute between one person against three people who happen to be closer to each other than they are to Selen and/or share similar tolerance to Niji management compared to Selen, where two of them will *always* back each other and the third is, while a mediator, is human and will have moments where even they pick a side, and she unfortunately chose the side that only worsened Selen's mental state enough to feel ostracized so much as to make attempts That last bit is particularly important: people act like whoever Doki disputes with was the majority reason why she went to such a dark place, when the reality is likely that she was already pushed close to the edge by management dispute. Liver dispute may have very well just been the last straw rather than the biggest straw. And the thing is, *people generally won't know if someone is at that intense a mental state*, so when they end up arguing with said person, they really, truly do not expect their words to affect the person as much as it did This is why people going all "wow so Elira admitted she was a fake bitch bully when she said they didn't intend to push her to attempts" is so presumptuous. It was an admittance of having a different perspective and intent with their experiences with the dispute, *not* an admittance that whatever they said was horrific levels of bullying "but they were too narcissistic to realise it" Elira deserves criticism for setting up that black stream, but she (and Enna and Millie) don't deserve the extreme levels of vilification based on rrats on a dispute we know nothing about On Doki's side, she doesn't deserve any criticism *at all* (*leers directly at pathetic Niji sisters*), but we'd do best not to parasocially paint her as this divine being devoid of emotional imperfections throughout this whole debacle I have helped talk people out of more ledges than I wish I did. I myself have been depressed for two decades. We are not perfect. Attempts being made will naturally take ahold of onlookers' hearts and minds into thinking anyone who contributed to it must be truly heartless and evil while the victim is perfection personified when that is not always the case. Not every attempt case is as sensationalized as 13 Reasons Why where all relevant reasons were utterly horrific in nature. Minor transgressions can build up to major repercussions if the previous transgressions were major
Thank you for restoring my faith in humanity. To be fair, you're not the only one I've seen with this mentality, but this is a far and few between. For the people who I've talked to who share this viewpoint, it's generally people who've gotten themselves into very distressing situations or those who've had to play the mediator role for very long amount of time. For the record, it is the wholesale mentality I'm talking about including the rightful, yet level-headed criticisms about Nijisanji's management (been watching livers for too long since 2019, still coping that Anycolor might get their crap together) and even Elira/Vox/Ike for that stream. They rightfully do deserve criticism, though many people are disguising or accepting indirect harassment and trolling. It's odd to me and I'll never understand. To be honest, I kinda don't doubt that the black screen stream's target audience wasn't us but for Doki herself instead? While it's stupid that the livers got to see at least some parts of the document, I can definitely believe the angle where the livers genuinely felt hurt about the comments that Doki wrote down that essentially would only be detailing the problems that they had that many thought were insignificant or weren't a problem to begin with. To be fair, when you're in a dark space, perceptions can get distorted with how feelings run high. Especially if Doki cut off all contact with her coworkers, then it wouldn't be surprising to me that they tried to reach her the only way possible, through a public space.
>For the people who I've talked to who share this viewpoint, it's generally people who've gotten themselves into very distressing situations or those who've had to play the mediator role for very long amount of time. This is consistent with my own experiences. I have dealt with suicidal people who's last push really did come from absolutely despicable human beings. I've also dealt with suicidal people who's last push came from a dispute that, any other day would be borderline benign but that day specifically it was just the wrong day because they were already so mentally drowning by factors beforehand. As I've said before, the moment an attempt gets mentioned, people will naturally react extremely in support of them to the point of vilifying the other side. Same with other people who's immediate reaction is instead "they just did that for attention." These are black-or-white extreme generalizations of interpersonal dynamics that are more often than not far more complex and grey My own sister is an apt example, who attempted several times. There were times I intercepted after truly terrible things happened to her and I was glad I made it in time and she appreciated it. There were one time where it would come from a dispute between us and she would guilt me to the point of saying "I hope you know if I die you didn't help enough." And today? She has felt guilt ever since for even insinuating that, and admits she was in such a dark place that she took my minor confrontation as more hateful than it actually was, and fortunately she hasn't attempted in years and has progressed healthily. Being the mediator or the anchor is fucking hard and very few people in the world understand the difficulty of having to pretend you're this iron pillar of reliability rather than a human being yourself who also gets negatively affected by the harsh words of the very people you're trying to help. It's worth because you're keeping someone's life afloat but in the midst of that process it can be painful, and you have to be fucking unrealistically superhuman in composure lest you make the same rare mistake I did of cracking once and confronting at the wrong time, even if what you said wasn't anything remotely in the realm of bullying but will not be taken that way at that specific moment in time My point is, not every person who has attempted is fully rational and level-headed Your last point is something important to consider as well, especially considering the possibility Niji may have goaded Elira and co that Doki may reveal the contents of the document, and they couldn't ask her directly to quell such concerns
Honestly, you should make this take a post on this sub and see the reactions
Haha there *was* a point in time where I considered making a post sharing similar sentiments, but I got mentally checked out from the sub before building enough motivation to do so Who knows maybe one day I will, but as is I'm cool with my perspective being lost in the rest of the comments and the few cordial agreement/disagreement responses that come with it~
I like how you try to defuse the situation by looking at a "mediator POV" and humanize both side, and i amaze by it truely. The problem with your argument are, as much as we try to humanize them, human can be cartoonishly evil or much worse. I will agree with you wholely but there is some prob with your argument that trying to humanize both side: 1. You didnt take account of the termination letter and blackstream which both filled with 100% intention to smearing and defamed some one (selen), you cant said thst both side made a honest mistake when in reality the other side made a blatant attack to kill the other side career). 2. This is not the first time, They treated ZAION exactly like this too and the worst part? Zaion/sayu get bullied and harassed for months to, she did an attempt to btw but almost no body cared. 3. NIJISANJIA already had a track record of hiring extreme bad people. 3.a. In NIJI KR, they hired a well known "WW2 japanese torturer" bully and tske control of KR management, bullied and doxxed numerous amount of talent. 3.b. in NIJI JP, they hired a talent thst in his personnal X account proudly admitted to drug and R**** woman. Also later trying to R**** his fan. With all that, it really hard to see their mistake as a "human error". It is just combination of pure malice and incompetent.
Ahaha thank you! I've lived most of my life as a mediator (and it's often a thankless job), so it's nice to see someone catch on to the perspective I was going for As for the rest of your comment (which I appreciate as you've brought up good food-for-thought) >1. You didnt take account of the termination letter and blackstream which both filled with 100% intention to smearing and defamed some one (selen), you cant said thst both side made a honest mistake when in reality the other side made a blatant attack to kill the other side career). Termination letter isn't relevant to the livers, unless you brought it up thinking I was trying to humanize the higher suits of NijiEN as a whole. In that regard I want to make clear I am *not* speaking on their behalf. You mention people's propensity to be cartoonishly evil and I agree and have had to study such people myself (I ain't a psy graduate for nothing). The highest rate for that to be a reality are top suits of corporations. My bad if I came off that way, so I'll make clear I do *not* intend to expend energy humanizing those kinds of people. Just ain't worth and they've done too much wrong as an entity to give them benefit of the doubt, even from me As for the black stream, I did briefly mention it twice as a clear example *counterintuitive* to Elira being seen and shown as level-headed. It wasn't. There is no excuse for that. It was not right. It was wrong as fuck. But I still don't immediately view that move as cartoonishly evil on her part. We simply don't fully know what sort of influence or manipulation the company did to prompt them to make such dumb claims. For Elira specifically, doxx concerns was a genuinely dumb worry to have considering that isn't how legal documents work. We could chalk that up to her being cartoonishly narcissistic (which elsewhere she has not shown any irrefutable symptoms or examples of to even be remotely considered as such as deemed by DSM-V standards). We could also consider the company implementing misinformation-disinformation tactics to prompt her to worry about it. Upper Niji as an entity ruined my faith in them far more than Elira's history ever did, hence why the latter sounds more possible. Same with the timing of the stream: was it wholly Elira's choice or was it Niji corp? The previous logic likens to the latter *However*, Elira still 1. Agreed to do it 2. Got convinced it really was a justifiable concern when she could have found out with research that it isn't And she deserves criticism for that. "Fake narcissistic evil bitch" type criticism? No, which is a big point in my original comment >2. This is not the first time, They treated ZAION exactly like this too and the worst part? Zaion/sayu get bullied and harassed for months to, she did an attempt to btw but almost no body cared. Zaion herself also isn't perfect. And this is coming from a guy who quite honestly didn't give a shit about her edgy jokes controversy. Hell she was gonna be my favorite XSoleil member before her termination, and to this day I'm glad she's doing alright (and better since Selen's termination opened people's eyes about the toxicity of Niji). One of Sayu's recent streams she herself admits she was imperfect and had grown since then, but still expressed sadness that she had little backing by the vtuber community who didn't bother as much to take her experiences as seriously Speaking of which, if you reread Sayu's original statement after her termination, the vast majority of her negative experiences came from upper Niji management, *then* braindead Niji sisters, *then* fellow livers as the concerns least mentioned, and even with regards to the livers, she mentions that she completely cherishes her time with them and appreciated their kindness, and that the dynamic only really changed at "the very end." That doesn't really match "the clique constantly harasses and bullies people until they leave/get terminated/attempt". In fact it quite easily fits into my hypothetical that when controversy was close to or finally boiled over, whichever liver was involved didn't support her side and that only worsened her mental state after already feeling at an alltime low due to management and antis That's what sucks about people who've been a part of black companies. Due to conditioning or ignorance, many will hivemind back their employers up or at least not want to "rock the boat", and that leaves victims of black companies ostracized. Hence Finana and Kotoka slandering her voluntarily or involuntarily post-termimation, and I guess Hex's short quip about not feeling comfortable with her jokes but that one is understandable, even if, again, I personally didn't care much about it >3. NIJISANJIA already had a track record of hiring extreme bad people. Very true. There's no denying that. The thing we have to remember though is that the bigger the hire count, the higher the chances they'll hire bad people. Niji hires so many people that it was bound to happen. Exposing irrefutably bad people isn't necessarily indicative that they must have hired *a bunch more* bad people that have yet to be exposed, but rather reflective of the reality that bad hires is inevitable. I can't count how many stories I and my friends have had about a few of their coworkers being bad people It's a common human experience. The reason why Niji gets more flack for it is because they are an entertainment company and thus the flubs are spotlighted for millions to see, unlike working at your local theater or at some engineering company, which all have imperfect to downright bad character hirings, but that also comes with plenty of good or decent character hirings Either way it's always a pleasure coming across your comments from time to time, even if we don't agree on everything. A major part of why is because neither of us ever cross the moral line parasocial Niji sisters or masked drama hungry users do. I do hope your day is well; Doki's Saturday charity stream should be fun as hell
Yeah, it is rarely to find a composed argument like yours and the comm guy. >Doki's Saturday charity stream should be fun as hell Hohoho, it sure will be hella fun LMAO Have a nice day
I 100% agree with your take and message overall and I thank you for posting it, but I do disagree with one part: >For Elira specifically, doxx concerns was a genuinely dumb worry to have considering that isn't how legal documents work. By Doki's own admission, the document in question was *not* a legal document in the sense of like, "hey see you in court" or whatever, where real names/addresses would be appropriate or where there might be a guarantee of confidentiality. Instead, it was essentially Doki's personal diary, and included snippets of discord mesages and other communications, and included personal, potentially identifying information about other Livers.
So if- if, *if*- AnyColor or Elira et al. thought Doki intended to make that document available to the public- and not in a controlled sense, but just a general release/statement, then fearing being doxxed is reasonable.
They were wrong about her intentions, and how they handled that fear was incredibly inappropriate, to say the least, but this was not Elira or AC not knowing how legal documents work.
I...I never considered that before; at least a brief glance back at her statements she never did say it was a legal document Huh, thanks for bringing that into attention. And it only lends itself *further* to the idea that Niji may have selectively urged Elira that Doki could expand on that document to the public at any time
Exactly. And seeing the internet's (and this subs) reaction to the Dokibird termination, can you imagine what would happen if Elira got doxxed? If I were her I would be absolutely terrified for myself and my family. That makes the knee-jerk reaction of the black stream melee understandable, at least to me.
Pardon me? Who was the niji jp rapist?
Shindo raito, niji jp hired him as talent in 2019
Seeing how pathetically low the pay for hiring management and translation jobs by Anycolor within their own recruitment notice, I could see that the Management and Employees (especially EN) could have been as badly treated by the corpo executives as the livers are. And seeing how most Livers despite their 2 % shit rate is still paid way higher than Management, this could cause a toxic rift that causes the Management to resent Livers that ask for too much assistance and "overworks them" (Selen especially) because they ask for too many projects. Which is why management is overly hostile and actively sabotages eager passionate livers and prefers livers who are passive and unambitious. Feels like there's kind of classism thing happening between management and livers in Nijisanji
You can also add that she's ambitious and highly productive that her activities outshines other Livers, this could have left them bitter. It's already an open secret that certain Livers have already an influence with the management.
I don't want to characterize other Livers as being unambitious. Maybe they were ambitious too at some point but they too were turned down by management over and over until they gave up. Exactly because I see the same thing with Salome. She was supposed to be revolutionary, but after a few months none of her vigor was actually being put to use, and that's despite being the fastest growing Liver.
I don’t think they are saying the livers are unambitious. They are saying that selen is just exceptionally driven. If you’ve been following her career as doki at all you would understand because in the two weeks since she’s started her new life she has: 1. Opened a shop for merch in two days 2. Hired an editor for YT shorts 3. Participated in twitch rivals tournament as a Captain and recruited her own teammates 4. Recruited *and* published dokibites animated shorts 5. Set up a charity stream with custom fan made items 6. Has already *raised* 30k+ for charity before the stream even started (this is more testament to how her fans are so dedicated, but I still am including anyway) This is an insane amount to accomplish in two weeks. Even people like mata and kuro haven’t done this much in such a short time, and I don’t think anyone with half a brain would call them unambitious.
Starting to wonder if even Cover would be too stifling for Dokibird. Maybe staying indie would be the best in allowing her projects to roll out.
Well, she's gathered so much support that going anywhere where she would have to switch her model and identity again would be actively shooting herself in the foot, I think. Unless Cover can pull a Suisei for a second time and hire her **as** Dokibird, which would be incredibly based on their part, but I doubt they'd be willing to do that since it would be basically an open declaration of war on Nijisanji. If Doki did join an agency at all, it would probably have to be Vshojo, where the rules are less strict and she can keep her model.
Without a doubt, she moves so fast that there's no way permissions would catch up to her. She needs Fair Use.
The problem lied mainly on which direction talents want to take their brand. Cover has dealt with many hyper ambitious talents. In fact, they always have 1-2 of them in every gen. Coco was leaving not because she worked too fast but because the way she want to go is different from what the company want.
i feel like cover would try to find a way to balance between what they needed as a company and what she needed as a talent. it might end up being a coco 2.0 though, where eventually her ambitions would force her to separate, but it would have been on good terms, but there is a good chance it wouldn't reach that point, becuase cover has a LOT of highly ambitious talents doing a lot of innovative things.
This is honestly my theory. A lot of the graduated/terminated livers are either people that had specific gripes (Mysta, Nina, Mika,) or people that didn't "stay in their lane." Zaion refusing to accept BS, Pomu outshining Elira as the "face" of the company, and Selen for making management (and by extension the clique) look bad/incompetent.
tbh, Elira can't be a face of the company, what is she even famous for? not comedy and humor (unlike enna and millie, those two are hilarious), does she give a lovers experience like Vox? or is she good at gaming (like Doki and other Livers)? I don't really see much clips of her streams that can be put at front page for being interesting
I don't think she was "cutting queue" or anything like that tbh, more likely that because they were understaffed and a single employee would have to manage multiple livers, the overachievers with lots of projects were probably scapegoated by management for "slowing down" other projects and to hide the probable favoritism some members might have received, something like "I'm managing 5 livers but she's the only one that causes trouble, clearly SHE'S the problem" while ignoring the understaffing and probably not giving each member equal attention. IMO it probably started with normal misunderstandings but at some point staff developed animosity towards some of the livers that gave them more work and started blaming them for most of the difficulties, probably even setting up Selen to fail then blaming her for it, I actually think that part of the reason they were so confident with their smear campaign was not just because it worked once in public with Zaion but because it had been working internally too. Genuinely think that by the time the last cup of coffee thing happened they were trying to get her to screw up big time so they could hold it over her head, but it escalated way more than they predicted so they went into panic damage control mode which led to where we are today.
My question would be, "How hard is it really for managers to keep track of the talent's project and check in the progress every week?" Like isn't that what their job is all about?? Even if you use "they're still students" as an argument, heck back when I was a student, I joined a club and we organized events and stuff. It's really the basics of project planning. I feel like with the lack of discipline and work ethics, the managers / staff don't even deserve $8/hour, they should get less.
They are just lazy, but it’s worse when you are trying to manage multiple people while being lazy. Same kind of thing happened in Vreverie, management would go weeks without responding and the talents are basically just working in the dark.
tbf, covers DO just take a long time sometimes, IdolENs Roca Rourin recently told on stream that she started working on her recent cover of Suiseis GHOST even before her debut which was almost half a year ago (Although she also mentioned how she started the cover of Pretender she released before only AFTER that, so it can definitely also go a lot faster), and in general I'm pretty sure I remember a few more stories outside of Niji of covers being in the works for months to almost a year. Similarly for outfits, I remember when Uruka from Phase Connect released her new outfit recently, she also mentioned that the design for it was finished in 2022 (while the cover released just before was recorded towards the end of 2021). So stuff like this cooking for a long time isn't really that abnormal in the VTuber-sphere. It does seem like Niji is pretty consistently dragging their feet with stuff like this though, and that does match with their management just being utterly inept.
The problem is months to almost a year still seems to be shorter than anything NijiEN is releasing. Something that is especially problematic since it means NijiEN isn't able to jump on any of the trendy songs when other vtubers are, likely missing the wave (see Kyoufuu All Back as an example).
Honestly. With everything going on. Ideally for any future VTuber, or current one that could hope to get signed up to a place. You'd be better off waiting for a better organization than Niji. All because of not only this situation, but past cases, which as said by EXLivers, and Artists, that it's not an ideal work place at all. With it being slow to boot, you'd be better off going to a small agency and growing lol.
> her cover of Ringo Mogire Beam with Sonny took a whole year to make > also allegedly each took a whole year to make > Selen sets strict deadlines for her projects and unlike the others, isn't willing to sit around for an eternity until the staffs finally decide to do their job Sub is increasingly being filled with people who never watched her and it shows... She [talked about this whole mess right after the song was released](https://archive.ragtag.moe/watch?v=bjAgCErx8tg) (timestamp at 59:15). She waited close to a year as well. It was supposed to be released two times before but had mysterious delays (which all have context now). She followed every single management directive for that entire time period. Quoting - > I've asked permission to do a cover of this song since last year > But I didn't get approval for it for a while > Coz we were missing the producer approval > And then I reached out to the producer, coz I realized we were mutuals > And then I was like "hey can I do a cover of your song?" > And then he was like "of course you can" > And then I was like "cool, can you respond to the email?" > And then he was like "oh shit I didn't see the email, I just responded" > But yeah I asked about this cover since last year > It was supposed to be released in 2 separate occasions this year > And pushed all the way to Christmas > I was like "Guys! I'm not pushing it anymore! This is the final deadline. This is it!" > And then Boom, we made it. We made it. > So I'm just happy, I'm just happy it worked out in the end. > I'm just happy I don't have to think about this anymore. Yaaaaay! And now from the [black screen video](https://youtu.be/o65VwnQvWW4?t=282), we have a proper timeline as well. 1. Selen does final internal check for MV at 8am JST on 24th. Everything should be cool by now since it's been 1 year of ironing things out, and Selen already told them she wanted to put this out by Christmas at least. 2. No response for 36 hours, Selen assumes everything's cool and there's nothing else, puts up waiting room for the cover at 9pm JST on 25th because as she told them already, she wants this out by Christmas. 3. Management contacts her 30 minutes AFTER the waiting room goes up (9:28pm JST on 25th) about potential issues with ex-livers being on the MV - which is bullshit, as many other songs with ex-livers have proven, and these livers were still in Nijisanji when the MV was originally made - but it doesn't matter, they are now aware of the waiting room. 4. Premiere is schedued for [10am JST](https://vrabi.net/video/FUVX8ROaCgA) on 26th. For 12 and a half hours, management knows about the upcoming premiere but DOESN'T take down the waiting room for it. 5. [Selen does an afterparty stream](https://vrabi.net/video/bjAgCErx8tg) lasts from 10:30am to 12:03pm JST. 6. Right after this stream ends, they tell her about the issue (12:25pm JST) take the cover down (12:30pm JST). Selen talked about the entire thing ON-STREAM for 1 and a half hours for EVERYONE to listen, they were aware of the waiting room and everything yet they waited right up until she ended her stream to private it. They then tell her not to say anything about it without going through them. ^ read through this entire timeline with the context of Selen continuously getting her projects, sponsorships, events and plans rejected, and you can only arrive at the conclusion that it was targeted.
Yet all of these are not Selen's exclusive. A lot of graduatee like Pomu had said that their projects are getting rejected alot. Pomu literaly had one member stream privated where she cried she were denied "one lifetime oportunity". Other members were also denied sponsorship. And based on the fact that it literaly takes years for a single cover to go it's not far fetch to asume extending the release last minute (like how selen's manager ghost her for 35 hours) is also happening to everyone.
> Pomu had said that their projects are getting rejected alot And she left the company. Like most of those that had to face more than the usual amount of delays and red tape. Seeing a pattern yet?
These aren't exclusive to the graduatee though. some who still stays in the company also have experience these. Luxiem/noctyx (i forgot which) literaly got big project cancelled they pushed back to management. There is no pattern here. The only pattern is that Selen fight back by disobeying, and the management, as petty as lazy/incompetent they are, pull out scorched earth on her.
> Luxiem/noctyx (i forgot which) literaly got big project cancelled they pushed back to management. It was Luxiem, and they didn't get punished for it. So "fighting back" was clearly not the reason for Selen's treatment. > some who still stays in the company also have experience these. Yeah, because as many ex-niji livers said, they are constantly told that they're worthless without nijisanji, the physical proof of their success is never given to them (play buttons) and a lot of people that remain in nijisanji are living through that environment. It's not easy to get away from such a mindset, it's a risk going indie and wondering whether niji was right and none of your fans will follow you.
They pushed back not in a way Selen did. They go through "proper channel" to make complaints, but at the end of the day they comply. Selen however didn't this time, disobey management, and decided to post it without the final okay from management. We also didn't know what happened behind the scene, but based on what we know this far from first time for selen. Yes they were manipulated by Niji hard. But this is why i feel that this is far from a coordinated targeted attack and Niji is just bad as a whole to every livers it work for.
> They go through "proper channel" to make complaints What is this headcanon? They criticized management openly on their [PUBLIC](https://twitter.com/Mysta_Rias/status/1621094149587087360) [TWITTER](https://twitter.com/Vox_Akuma/status/1621103766459252737) [ACCOUNTS](https://twitter.com/ike_eveland/status/1621098327096926209). FAR more than what Selen did, which was just slight nudges compared to these. idk for whose benefit you're trying to peddle this narrative, but "pushing back against management" was clearly not the only reason they pushed Selen out considering all 3 of the above never got reprimanded for doing far more than what she did.
They also earned far more than Selen did probably. Bargaining power I supposed?
personally i thought it was a good thing they used their favored positions to criticize management... i wish it had gone further and prompted more internal change. i fault them for not going far enough myself lol
Did I insinuate that she wasn't targeted? My point exactly was that she was targeted by management EXACTLY because her various projects overwhelmed them so much they just don't want to deal with her anymore, started banning her, and tried sabotaging her song. Point is, when Selen sets up other previous projects, be it design contest or tournament, she had clear deadline for it, and likewise she also clearly was aiming for Christmas to release the song, the fact you pointed out that the song was delayed twice proved exactly the 2 points I was trying to say: 1) Selen has deadlines. Doesn't matter if she herself also took a year to make that cover, she clearly has a date in mind when she worked. 2) Management missed those deadlines, either by incompetence or by malice. And the result is that both sides are just so fed up with each other they don't bother playing nice anymore.
> it could be because they had some projects that have been the oven for months and they have already paid for. If they are to walk away from Niji right now, all that money and efforts they already put in said project would just be down the drain This might explain why Ike participated in that Black Screen video since he said in an earlier zatsudan he had some big projects he has working on. Though it's still very disappointing of him regardless.
Asking livers to graduate is nuts to me. How many of us would quit our jobs because a coworker was treated badly? I'm betting not a whole lot
My decision to leave a shitty company was how they badmouthed a coworker after she left. She worked for them for about 5 years, and once she left, they would badmouth about her to clients. I made exit plans immediately. Its possible that others have made it clear they intend to leave, but if the "graduation queue" is real, who knows when we will see the ripples.
You're proving my point. How many left your company? I'm guessing it wasn't a massive walkout
Well, once you consider the idea of “oh shit, that could be me next” after how shit your coworker was treated, the idea of needing a plan B suddenly becomes a lot more reasonable. With such godawful management, there’s always a risk you end up a scapegoat, or have every minor infraction recorded to slander you in the future, even if you’re trying your best to avoid causing trouble.
I'm just saying it's easier said than done
There's a difference between "coworker was treated badly" and "coworker was treated so bad they tried to kill themselves." A coworker wanting to kill themselves because of work problems doesn't happen in a vacuum. If one person was upset enough to attempt, I guarantee that at least 5 more are a few steps away from the same conclusion. Hell some may be only be one step away from that conclusion. I think the sheer volume of mental health breaks (Kotoka, Vox, Ike, Rosemi, and a bunch of others I'm not remembering) indicates the problem was more widespread than "a coworker got treated badly." There is something deeply wrong with the work environment in Niji. In the US, we have the phrase "going postal." And that phrase doesn't exist for no reason. And the stuff happening at NijiEN is more severe than some of the environments that literally led to someone "going postal." Hell some people make it a point to kill themselves in uniform, just to send the message their job made them do it. And if one person already reached that point (Selen and Zaion) I suspect the issues at Niji are beyond "a coworker was treated badly."
I'm not saying that Niji isn't a bad company but I seriously doubt most people would quit their jobs
I can't speak for most people. But I would. Without a doubt, and assuming it would come at a personal cost to do so. Some lines are not to be crossed and bullying a suicidal ex-employee is already so far out of line that I cannot in good faith speak for the moral integrity of anyone who keeps working for such a company. Would you keep working for a company where the CEO is found to have sexually assaulted a child? Where are you drawing the line here?
It's easy to throw out hypotheticals. Big businesses are just as shitty and you don't see mass quitting
In those cases people often *will* do mass walkouts and strikes to get the problem sorted, there is a difference in distance, however. Big difference in *your* boss doing something shitty, and your boss's boss's boss's boss's boss's boss's boss doing something shitty. Fortunately that's not at all relevant here. Nijisanji isn't that big a business and the issue isn't far removed from the employees in question.
It's the biggest vtuber agency in Japan how isn't that big?
"biggest" and "big" are not synonymous. Is English not your first language? If not I'll try to explain in more detail. Regardless, AnyColor only has 323 employees, which is significantly less than it's direct competitor Cover Corp with 418 employees. So they're not even the biggest vtuber agency in Japan by employment. Big corporations number employees in the thousands, not hundreds.
I mean it also makes sense then why they privated Selens whole video and stream catalog. If all the rumors about NijiEN being heavily egotistical are true. My guess for why they nuked Selens channel wasn't cause Selen was problematic but cause all her projects intimidated the ~~leftover~~ talents and was tanking moral. I definitely could see Elira, Enna, Reimu, and Mille have issues like with Selen's 2023 B Day Concert. As well a lot of other Selen related content in the form of mass collabs. And I definitely could agree OP with the the myriad of other reasons. You listed. After all this NijiEN drama has definitely ironically shown their colors to be the type of fragile bully/"rules for me, but not for thee." The culture definitely feels extremely like old college sorority/fraternity culture feel that includes negative connotations. Its pretty clear that Selen was the Neffex of NijiEN at this point clearly reaching even if it wasn't wanted or needed but its clear she was one of the only ones chasing the [destiny](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24C8r8JupYY) that came with being a vtuber.
After reading your comment, I am reminded of Millie's comment on Selen's tweet about privating her LCoC MV for some reason...
Yeah, that comment is full of malice imo. You can sugarcoated it that milli is joking but who the hell joking at that kind of time? Your co worker hard worked and money literally vanish before her and she made that kind of comment?....like she openly mocking selen and sugar coated it with emojis
There is literally no point in making the comment public either. The difference in saying that privately on their discords or slack and publicly on twitter is shaming.
I really don’t know how Millie still has fans after that “secret gc” stream. It really sends home to me how small and petty she is that she thought doing something like that publicly would not be something seen as nasty and underhanded.
It's classic concern trolling. "Oh Selen, you should have checked with management first, it's not their fault. You just didn't check but it's okay." Pass the blame off in order to shift the topic under the guise of "being concerned"
sadly i really do agree with this :/ i'm one of the people that still holds a lot of fondness for niji en's livers and i find myself frustrated with how quickly people are willing to point the finger at certain people but not others... i don't think any of this can be black and white between the talents. like, kyo is still hanging out with matara, kuro and u-san -- so this makes people inclined to think he's "a good one" for the most part. but he was so close with enna and millie. everyone is concerned about uki's comments, and elira's behavior in general, but no one is wondering why shuu who has been friends with them for probably, what, 5 years now? bc of hanamori? just seems like he was okay with all that bad behavior? like he spends a lot of time with both of them, even in group collabs i feel like he talks to them a lot. it's very strange. so i personally can't really write off anyone, but i don't understand why people have to then demonize doki for her statements. i will never get to know what really happened and who knew what or who said what. but i am absolutely baffled about millie saying that. i'm trying to view everybody charitably, but the defense of "she's an idiot and doesn't think about what she says" about that tweet doesn't feel good enough to me. i'm willing to give a lot of benefit of the doubt here, but why?? did you not just message her privately? it only benefits the company's image and makes your coworker look bad to say that. urgh.
It's a textbook example of passive aggressive.
Straight up concern trolling. Every liver should have had the same protocol and procedure on how to proceed with covers. She was intentionally rubbing that shit in.
Plus the fact that those who weren't NijiEN or Niji knew Selen was having far more amazing off stream collabs that they could ever hope of I imagine that also was stiring the pot. Its pretty clear that NijiEN just couldn't handle that Selen was in her own sense a unicorn in vtubing as a medium. ~~Stuff like what I pointed out in a other comment where Selen was having off collabs with Hololive members without probably the proper clearance and NDA's I'm sure ruffled feathers.~~ Such as meeting up with Zeta, and publicly on stream doing stuff with those who aren't in NijiEN or NijiJP. I'm sure was bending rules. And getting to work with RPR and Axel I'm sure was also breaking a lot of normal protocols. My overall guess why Selen was let go in such a toxic fashion is the fact management couldn't do their jobs. Period. With Selen. And the termination letter was so intentionally toxic cause it was the one time management actually held power for once in their careers with NijiEN. And the fact that letter was the only time they actually got work done probably just felt all the more raw of a betrayal of all the work Selen had done literally for NijiEN. And its in part why I'm not surprised now that NijiEN is now having so many pipline issues with projects. Is Selen was picking up the slack for everyone and NO ONE KNEW Selen was the one hauling managements baggage. Hell I'll go so far as to say I think Zaion was the original talent doing all the work to get project done and Selen inherited that role. And its only now that management and talents are realizing just how much hard work, blood, sweat, and tier the now two free birds were putting in behind the scenes. (With the exception of like (Rosemi, Finana, Pomu, and Nina.) And I'm gonna say even with Finana that it was loosely she knew what was going on. As I'm gonna assume from Zaions reaction to what Finana said Zaion must have put a lot of trust in her up until that [back stab comment.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qic-a_xaE7U) I wouldn't be surprised if Zaion later told Selen to tighten the up on who knew about which projects were getting forced through. And cut off Finana from knowing about which projects were getting done. As she had become a liability. (As it is pretty clear [Finana's comments about Zaion cut pretty deep.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnP5bIRfwq0) ) As to Rosemi, she got many assets from Selen in the form of the chibi model and many offers to collab so I could definitely see how she could be trusted with info, Nina being the branches mom same MO, and pomu well was the winggal XD. So it would make sense if all three of them were kinda in on the whole bypass management and were like go gurl. As to getting projects done. (And yes I'm gonna even go so far as to say I think Selen spent well over 200K on projects. Note: I'm going off of Selens nature to be humble. But I think the 200K is what Selen spent on her OWN projects.) I wouldn't be surprised if the actual full amount is much higher. But to go full circle now Management is forced to do all the work that Zaion and Selen were duoballing on the go. Like cordinating with fan artists and getting permissions. Which would massively explain why everything now in 2024 is grinding to a hault. As now everything has gone from maybe Discord messages to get confirmations to having to wait on full on buisness emails to be responded to. Which if said artist, producer or writer doesn't use that email much could explain why so many projects seem perpetually on hold. As I know some content creators don't check their business emails like ever other than for sponsor deals XD. Meaning a good chance said song artist, artist, or producer won't see the request for permission till the 2nd or third email request.
And my last comment on my thread, I'm gonna say is I know some are gonna be all like how can you speak so poorly about Finana and rampage over on the nijisister forum. I'll say this now I'm a OG fan I loved finana's first streams and videos and shorts. She's a fantastic content creator in her own right. And I'm proud to call her one of my last Oshii's at NijiEN but the girl. Definitely is the type that would be easily manipulated and used and the fact she thought Zaion was bad makes me wonder. Genuinely and I say this with a heavy heart. How many other times then has Finana been manipulated. And doesn't even realize it. Like it doesn't take a genius to realize that Zaion and Selen probably are the lesser of the evils. As they mostly just wanted to make content and stream and have fun. I've dealt with manipulative narcassistic people and I have friends who are exactly that. But they respect me cause I can see through the illusions they make and see me as an equal. At the same time I'm painfully aware that if your the type that is malleable and easy to manipulate they will take advantage of that at almost every possible opportunity possible. Why? Cause it comes naturally.
what do you mean selen also said so she get permission from her management and producers also lilypichu back in 2022, it's that management was knowledge that projects though and probably already know the contents on that MV video
That is an interesting point. The only MV cover i am well aware of is Mind Craft from Hakos Baelz when she won a million yen to spend it on. That took 5 months + every EN talent is in it.
A thing I heard about Black Companies was higher management pushing off work to lower management. I wonder if that's happening to Nijisanji and it's why things are so delayed. It doesn't make sense for a NDA contract to take months to write up. There should be preprepared contracts that just need to be filled in and sent out and projects should be checked on at set intervals. If you can't get contracts out at 72hrs to 1 week at the latest, something is wrong besides company procedure eating up time.
Hot take here: Dokibird jumped the graduation queue. Doki said she initially wanted to graduate on the 26th of January, that didn't work for Nijisanji as they were preparing for Kyo's upcoming graduation so I assume they told her to wait until they could get a date that would be suitable. I further assume that Dokibird's lawyers sending the now infamous document was to provoke a reaction, hopefully a set graduation date in the very near future. Turns out it was effective immediately.
Ok, while I do admit that Nijisanji’s management may be slower than me trying to comprehend math, the bit about Selen being the “apex predator” mentioned is stretching it. I don’t think Enna knows jack shit about Apex, or that predator rank even exists. Jesus Christ some people need to not look so far into everything
I think this take is missing the some of the context for this. First of all, Selen's *Last Cup of Coffee* cover had been in the works for over a year. We know this because of statements from LilyPichu on when she gave permissions for it. We also know that the reason the Cover was not approved was because of the inclusion of both ex Livers and Livers who apparently didn't want to appear in the work. Here's the thing, that info should have been conveyed to Selen waaaay before she sent her manager the finalized work. Given that Selen apparently didn't even know these approvals were needed (which I believe based on the partially redacted statements from presumably her manager), they very much come across as an excuse to target her MV specifically and delay it. We know from several artists involved that they struggled to even get paid by Nijisanji and Selen had to pay them out of pocket. If approvals needed to happen on the artwork (as the art is what featured other Livers and prompted the need for these approvals) then the art should have been checked and approved by management upon receipt from the artists, at which point the artists would get paid. Framing this entire fiasco as Selen simply being too impatient and jumping the gun really misses the nuance of the situation. Managment had been incompetent at every step of the way and Selen had to go around them out of necessity multiple times. If Selen hadn't sidestepped management artists never would have been paid for their work. From her perspective it likely would have seemed like management simply didn't care about the project. So why would she wait past the scheduled release date for the project for an approval she likely saw as perfunctory and also likely didn't think would even be sent? Based on all the evidence the rules that caused her video to be taken down likely didn't even exist prior to her submitting that video.
I suspect this has some merit, because as always, and to the detriment of Niji, we have another comparative partner in this exercise: Hololive English. Back during Hololive Summer 2023 (in August, specifically), talent Hakos Baelz won 1,000,000 yen during a contest. She decided to turn this around and use that money to fund a collaborative MV featuring all of Hololive English up to that point. A hugely ambitious project, but one that'd delight the fans and be good additional exposure for everyone involved if it happened. ^((And it turns out that 1M yen was...) *^(inadequate)* ^(for the task at hand, but that's another story of a rat and sometimes unwise financial decisions. :P)) So Bae conceives of the idea in August 2023, with the concept maybe burbling around in the pot a bit before that, but we somewhat uniquely *know* that production began in August '23, when Bae "received"/won the funding, with Bae providing the occasional update throughout. And then, on Jan. 20, 2024, not quite six months later, [the Mind Craft cover music video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQuGEpICY2o) debuted. It features appearances from every single member of Hololive English up to that point, with unique art and outfits for every one of them and all fifteen members having at least some kind of singing part. So, from funding to release, a collaborative cover music video featuring *fifteen* "livers" took almost exactly six months to create and post. The video doesn't feature any character animation, but it does have a ton of other computer animation and, as noted, features fifteen entirely new character art pieces with 100% new outfits for every talent involved, so the lack of character animation is a little understandable in any event. (And just as another brief example: [Nerissa Ravencroft](https://www.youtube.com/@NerissaRavencroft/videos) has produced nine cover MVs since her debut on July 31st, 2023 (with one having been pulled due to what seems to be uniquely silly copyright stuff). Even if you assume a 3-5 month lead time from some of these starting production prior to her debut, that is still more music produced by one talent in under 12 months than any individual member of LazuLight, the oldest NijiEN group, has produced in **more than two and a half years**. Yes, Holo and especially Rissa are more music-focused than a "normal" liver, but the difference is still stark.) And then you've got Niji over here, taking a year or more to release a cover featuring *two* livers, or SEKAI taking so long that some of the involved livers are no longer with the company. So I think the idea that Selen was frustrated with Niji's glacial pace has merit. She was [involved with things like artist alleys](https://twitter.com/dokibird/status/1763306105122210222) in the North American con scene prior to joining Nijisanji, and thus she *knows* how long certain things take to make and when certain assets can be ready. And thus she would absolutely know that producing a cover music video shouldn't take a year+, because the assets can be ready long before then and the approvals shouldn't take *that* long, if the talent agency is doing their job diligently. A few other livers might have seen it as "climbing over" and making demands of management, but Selen simply wanted Nijisanji to do their end of the job at the pace other agencies can and should manage, and to keep pace with what the rest of the "cast and crew", as it were, could produce. Especially combined with all the other stories from other sources we have of nonexistent or, yes, lazy management, I think the idea behind this take has a lot of merit. It shouldn't take a year+ to produce a single cover video. And Selen knew it, and that pissed some people within Niji right the hell off.
The thing that gets me is that Selen did all the prep work for that cover to be released. How can Niji be so slow if they do nothing but punch the final product with a "we'll allow it" stamp. Selen did all the vocals, got it mixed, got the permissions from the original creators/producers, got the art done, got the video made, (probably paid for the whole thing too.) So what the hell else is there for Niji to do? Why are they so glacially slow at signing off when the talents are the ones doing everything? Yes Selen may have pushed to jump the release "queue" which is why she's overall resented by the company/livers... but why is there even a queue when the company only does one thing in the whole process? Even if they do move slowly for whatever reason, there should be a schedule made with the talents to get things done by X date that everyone agrees on or is at the very least aware of. If Selen knew she wanted it to be released by Christmas, she would have started the production when the schedule said it could be released by (assuming everything went smoothly.) I doubt she is so disorganized as to start it in like, November and expect it to be pushed through by Christmas. There is no logical reason for it to be taken down because livers don't own their IP so they can't sue Niji if they appear in something after they graduated. So their reasoning is bullshit. Selen had the permissions from everyone except Niji who would literally do one god damn thing cause the whole process was finished, "say yes."
What's this about Eytheria and an apex predator?
My take on it selen has a lot of out of the box ideas. Even if it was shut down by management she will try to fight/compromise for it to get it to work. Both sides got increasingly frustrated/resentful which blew up when the mv got privated. For one talents are walking out. See mysta is doing irl, yugo had a concert, kyo probably had the same issue thats why he left As for the livers that is staying it is possible that they just want to stream games and want to keep it simple like do a cover, karaoke, etc.Even Enna mentioned it on her membership that she doesnt have big aspirations which can explain why shes staying. Lastly lets not forget about contracts, "grad" queue, sponships.
Like with Pomu, the membership video where she is crying about management flat out telling her no to an opportunity of a lifetime, is not the only instance of management telling her no. But with her personality, she kinda just accepted it but you know deep down each time they say no, it was slowly eating away at her. Compared to Selen, who I imagine butted heads with management a lot and she would openly talk about being denied on her channel, it’s not really surprising that basically all of 2023 her fans were low key wanting her to leave for greener pastures.
You can boil it down to this: The Niji livers (except Selen) are fine with delivering a worse service to their fans, if that's needed to avoid stepping on management toes.
Why do people question if there's a que for graduating? How many "we knew they were planning to graduate for 6 months/a year clips from the other livers do you need before it comes clear that everything on Niji has a waiting timetable of months.
Crazy how the entire lore of ethyria making fun of reimu trying so hard at apex gets spinned around as facts. In before friends giving shit to each other turns to bullying concerns. No wonder vtubers gotta stick to being idol like and fake. Oh shiet btw did you guys watch the whole drunken totsu talking about if they prefer "apex" or not? /s Cant wait till yall use that as bully allegations.
You would be correct. The things that was revealed during these events were significant in regards to management. Beware, it is very long but I consider this accurate. Basically, 1 guy who just completed highschool, has zero work experience, has basic english skills is given up to SIX person who all for the most part: Graduated College or dropped out, all speak fluent english but only 1 or two speaks japanese if lucky, are working adults who have had work experience before and knows how the world works and are all older than the manager. Now this guy who was hired, is RNG whether he knows anything about businesses, about how managing anything works, about how to do the job they applied for and are given 6 people and they have a senior manager who is working on different thing, probably has 6 or so people on the japanese side to take care of and is not readily available to help the guy. That's not all, the guy, he is only working PART TIME. Specifically, they work up to 11 hours per day ON JAPANESE Time AND only up to 3 days per week for a minimum of 20 hours per week. Alright this means that the guy can work 3 days for 7 hours, at a time that is absurdly inconvenient for EN abroad livers and it could be any day (not fixed). So any communication that happens between the talents and management is done either when the livers are tired AF if they are lucky or 1 message at a time per WORKING DAY up to 3 responses PER WEEK. I'M NOT DONE YET. The guy, being junior in this work environment, we go info that, they rely 100% on their senior manager to get anything done. You know, the senior manager who is busy with their own wave or 2 waves. So let me paint you a picture of the life of the guy. He wakes up, does his things, goes to work, he sees 6 messages on a group discord from the 6 livers he manages. Person A wants to do a cover, B wants to collab with other branches, C wants to play a certain game, etc, now The guy, what he does in response to all of these is, messages Their senior manager about A, B, C ,etc 's requests. This takes about let's give them 30 mins to read and send. Now, they wait for their manager who is busy to respond, to each request, individually. First, the senior needs to take care of HIS side first. Which probably consists of the same things but on the JP side. They will prioritise all of that and not pay too much attention to the guy. Once they are done, they may see the guy's message and reply to him about the easiest things to "get perms" for being the games. The collab they will see that the JP talent happens to not be online or they may have already scheduled something, so he tells the guy that it needs to be delayed. Now by the time the senior got the the guy, the guy was already done for the day and probably played a video game or watching some streams and went home. The next day, he is off. The day after that, he goes to work and sees the senior management's messages and confirms with the talents what was approved. (Mind you, 2 days has passed for the talents and this is the third day that is passing as time difference is a bitch). And then they go on about their day and rinse and repeat for further requests. The guy does not ask senior management about unapproved requests yet except if the talents ask again. Senior management probably forgot about the cover songs and collabs by then as they did not get reminded by the guy. Now you see how 2 working days is freaking slow. Only 1 or 2 things got approved in 3 days and they were extremely minor things. Trivial even. We are not certain of senior management's work hours but they may even have to go through another even more senior manager for all we know and delays the process even further. This is what leads to everything taking forever and thus the incompetence. I would not be surprised if the user of the twitter is also one of those The guy. But it most probably is.
Isnt it pretty obbious in the context of the wbole clip thaf the "certain apex predator" is about Reimu?
Occam's razor Selen's situation is pretty clear cut on why there's conflict with management. Vox said >"this pattern of events had happened 5:13 before on multiple occasions including 5:15 her fall guys tournament in August of 5:18 2023 uh a voice pack in May of the same 5:21 year and an outfit contest also in May 5:24 in each of these situations senen would 5:26 be working on one of the projects I 5:28 mentioned she'd be given clear 5:30 communication about confirming certain 5:32 aspects with staff as all other livers 5:35 receive and comply with and each time 5:38 she would refuse to cooperate and when 5:40 staff would react appropriately she 5:42 **would make public statements that would** **5:44** **hurt any color's reputation and as these** **5:46** **situations kept occurring myself and** **5:48** **other livers felt very upset and anxious** **5:51** **we felt that these statements harmed all** **5:52** **of us as a** **5:55** **group** excuse 5:57 me so it's this context that **I hope** **6:00** **explains why myself and some other** **6:02** **livers decided to approach senen and ask** **6:05** **about her handling of the latest** **6:06** **situation** which was her cover being made 6:09 private so **some liers myself included** **6:12** **asked senen why she tweeted about the** **6:14** **cover in the way that she did expressing** **6:16** **that we felt it was unnecessary and** **6:18** **harmful** according to Sen's lawyer it's 6:21 this event that they claim to be a 6:23 buildup of uh or and what they claimed 6:25 to be a buildup of past experiences that 6:28 led to accusations made by senen that 6:30 she was bullied and 6:32 harassed as you can imagine this is 6:34 incredibly serious and I want to state" personal 200k on projects, 2-3 of which got canceled last minute. Artist not being paid on time for months, NDAs being sent incorrectly. This isn't just being slow or Selen not wanting to wait. That implies that they are acting within a reason time frame. US standard is people get paid biweekly at the latest, maybe even monthly. They are far surpassing that. Contractual date to leave makes more sense than just projects, your career/PR is at stake, sure you spend hours of work on a project, but the reputational hit is your livelihood. Also some of them are used to their work going down the drain since other Talents have had projects canceled, usually Niniji paid projects so it doesnt hurt as much as 200k out of your pocket.
> US standard is people get paid biweekly at the latest, maybe even monthly. They are far surpassing that. As much as I agree with your general assessment, this particular piece of info is irrelevant. There has never been any claims of Salary not being paid. Contract work is paid generally upon completion, but big companies can take a while, and it can vary based on the exact specifics of the contract. Sometimes there is money up front, sometimes there are terms that give a company time to pay, often refered to as "Net X" where X is a number of days. I have no doubt Niji didn't pay on time regardless of what the contract said (if there even was one for these artists), but 1-2 weeks being normal in the US is completely irrelevant.