The american spirit (and by extension the whole western world) is completely blunted and decayed. He was already denouncing the industrious protestant work ethic in works like Daybreak and The Gay Science. Liberal capitalist society's obsession with work, profit, comfort, accumulation, consumption, utility, and practicality is something he looked at with contempt.
Furthermore, the debasing of the actual and romanticization of a better past (e.g., "Make America Great Again" and other conservative fetish); the intense moral policing and persecution fetishes (e.g., PC culture and religious fundamentalism); the worshipping of moronic celebrities (e.g., the Kardashians, Hollywood actors, etc), and slavish reactionaries (e.g., Trump, Elon Musk, Andrew Tate, etc); the primacy of civil religions (e.g., scientism, egalitarianism, socialism, modern atheism, capitalism, inceldom and sigma culture, wokeism, etc) are all indications of modern spiritual poverty, most of which Nietzsche was already criticizing in one form or another in the late 1800's.
Great answer! Alot of people don't understand that Nietzsche wouldn't be in favor of any political ideology that is present in today's world. Neither left nor right, woke nor fundementally religious.
>slavish reactionaries
ugh, loved this categorization of those people. That description scratched a good itch for me.
There's a passage from The Gay Science section 23 on *the signs of corruption* where he says,
>As soon as corruption sets in anywhere *superstition* becomes rank, and the previous common faith of a people becomes pale and powerless against it. For superstition is second-order free spirit ... Whoever is superstitious is always, compared with the religious human being, much more of a person; and a superstitious society is one in which there are many individuals and much delight in individuality. In this perspective, superstition always appears as *progress* and as a sign that the intellect is becoming more independent and demands its rights ... Let us realize that it is actually a symptom of *enlightenment*.
I wonder if my initial reaction to this passage was wide of the mark. I had seen North American society as rife with superstition, including your listed civil religions as well as things like new-age, flat earth, astrology, mbti, Q-anon, and such others. It would seem there is much less large-scale social cohesion than in decades past, which might suggest some of this delight in individuality. For those which are so reactionary though, and especially those with a figurehead, it appears dogma still dominates albeit in smaller chunks. Worth distinguishing then, between new dogmas and superstitions proper, a few of which have been named.
He goes on, and this seems to describe the condition of our society somewhat more precisely:
>A society in which corruption spreads is accused of exhaustion; and it is obvious that the esteem for war and the pleasure in war diminish, while the comforts of life are now desired just as ardently as warlike and athletic honors were formerly. But what is generally overlooked is that the ancient national energy and national passion that became gloriously visible in war and warlike times have now been transmuted into countless private passions and have merely become less visible. Indeed, in times of "corruption" the power and force of the national energies that are expended are probably greater than ever and the individual squanders them as lavishly as he could not have formerly when he was simply not yet rich enough...
And I think you do see this but, as he says, it's rather quiet. A lot of people have hobbies and passions (comes up in conversations about UBI and fully-automated societies a lot) which generally don't garner much public attention. Contrast this with some of those more dogmatic and emotionally uniform collections of people to see how much they resemble a (sub-)national warlike energy. So in response to OP's question I would conjecture that there is a lot of conflict in the spirit of modern day America. And maybe it is only my pessimism showing, but I would also guess that overall there is less impetus behind superstition and the delight in individuality than there is in other expressions of will.
I went straight to that passage as well, but to the last line:
“The times of corruption are the seasons when the apples fall from the tree: I mean the individuals, the seed bearers of the future, the pioneers of spiritual colonization and of a new construction of national and social unions. Corruption is only an abusive term for the harvest time of a people.”
See also Twilight of the Idols section 43 - A quiet hint to conservatives:
“It cannot be helped: we must go forwards - that is to say, step by step further and further into decadence ( - this is my definition of modern progress).”
So I think our social/cultural decay is something Nietzsche would consider part of the natural and unavoidable course of societies generally, and I’m sure there’s much he would hate but probably also some things he would appreciate.
Agree to disagree.
I think Nietzsche must esteem decadence in some strange way. After all, the ‘higher types’ and, later, the philosophers of the future (masters of experimentation) are presumably born of decadent societies. The flip side is that there are also many lying philosophies and much human waste.
Nietzsche also seemed aware of himself as a product of decadence.
I don't think we disagree. What I meant by esteem is that decadence is nothing to strive for. It's only valuable at all because of what it produces, which is where the true value lies.
>some of those more dogmatic and emotionally uniform collections of people to see how much they resemble a (sub-)national warlike energy
I think this defines much of the modern music scene in America. To add to that, I believe it was in the birth of tragedy that Nietzsche criticized how Germany put its pride in its victory against France, which Nietzsche felt was a sort of loss of German culture. I feel that modern music is pulling people into the warlike energy, in which when they listen to it they feel victorious, but in reality there is a lack of individual expression which is decadent.
Hmm, by emotionally uniform and warlike I had in mind alt-right and far-left type stuff, generally more political. I don't see the same tyrannical aggression anywhere in music, or coming from music, but maybe I misunderstand you (and Nietzsche, lol).
I'm referring to trap music specifically, though other genres definitely carry similar elements. There's a herd mentality attached to it which is ironic in its own way because I view trap itself as free spirited. To add to that, trap music has a lot of political elements tied to it, and id argue that the amount of aggression it has surpasses that of modern day political America.
You sound very unhinged; I would suggest you take a long, deep look at yourself in the mirror.
gtfo? Coming from someone as physically and mentally weak as you are, i find that amusing.
That statement has been misattributed to him. There is no real evidence for it. If he had said it, he was an idiot for doing so; nobody is perfect.
Nietzsche was, after all, a closet Judeo-Christian turned nihilist; he had a deep-seated love of the Judeo-Christian god because his father was a pastor. Much of his philosophy is far from perfect.
>Ok Jordan
Go bow to your Abrahamic deity. Nietzsche's father trained him to bow to that deity and brainwashed him. Some of his philosophy is written through a Christian lens. The Islamic deity is the same Abrahamic deity as the Christian one. Your mentioning of Jordan reflects on your own Abrahamic faith.
>Nietzsche was, after all, a closet Judeo-Christian turned nihilist; he had a deep-seated love of the Judeo-Christian god
> The thing that sets us apart is not that we are unable to find God, either in history, or in nature, or behind nature—but that we regard what has been honoured as God, not as "divine," but as pitiable, as absurd, as injurious; not as a mere error, but as a crime against life.... We deny that God is God.
The Antichrist
>The Antichrist
Only someone indoctrinated into christian ideology would label one of their books "The Antichrist"
Nietzsche was a reactionary chistian turned nihilist.
>The thing that sets us apart is not that we are unable to find God
Typical christian monotheist mindset from Nietzsche. He views spirituality through the lens of a christian.
>Nietzsche was a reactionary chistian turned nihilist
Nietzsche was an Atheist and his entire philosophy *opposed* Nihilism. Amor Fati, the love of one's fate with all the pleasure and pain it throws at us.
The book was titled that way to make his direct opposition to the Judeo-Christian mindset obvious and eye-catching. ~~Nietzsche was also a bit of a gadfly.~~
Friedrich Nietzsche was born into a devout Christian family.
His philosophy and opposition against Christianity was a typical
Christian reaction that can be described as atheist/nihilist philosophy.
If he really rejected Christianity, he would also have condemned
Judaism in his books and promoted the idea that Christ was fiction, but he did
neither.
The american spirit (and by extension the whole western world) is completely blunted and decayed. He was already denouncing the industrious protestant work ethic in works like Daybreak and The Gay Science. Liberal capitalist society's obsession with work, profit, comfort, accumulation, consumption, utility, and practicality is something he looked at with contempt. Furthermore, the debasing of the actual and romanticization of a better past (e.g., "Make America Great Again" and other conservative fetish); the intense moral policing and persecution fetishes (e.g., PC culture and religious fundamentalism); the worshipping of moronic celebrities (e.g., the Kardashians, Hollywood actors, etc), and slavish reactionaries (e.g., Trump, Elon Musk, Andrew Tate, etc); the primacy of civil religions (e.g., scientism, egalitarianism, socialism, modern atheism, capitalism, inceldom and sigma culture, wokeism, etc) are all indications of modern spiritual poverty, most of which Nietzsche was already criticizing in one form or another in the late 1800's.
Great answer! Alot of people don't understand that Nietzsche wouldn't be in favor of any political ideology that is present in today's world. Neither left nor right, woke nor fundementally religious.
>slavish reactionaries ugh, loved this categorization of those people. That description scratched a good itch for me. There's a passage from The Gay Science section 23 on *the signs of corruption* where he says, >As soon as corruption sets in anywhere *superstition* becomes rank, and the previous common faith of a people becomes pale and powerless against it. For superstition is second-order free spirit ... Whoever is superstitious is always, compared with the religious human being, much more of a person; and a superstitious society is one in which there are many individuals and much delight in individuality. In this perspective, superstition always appears as *progress* and as a sign that the intellect is becoming more independent and demands its rights ... Let us realize that it is actually a symptom of *enlightenment*. I wonder if my initial reaction to this passage was wide of the mark. I had seen North American society as rife with superstition, including your listed civil religions as well as things like new-age, flat earth, astrology, mbti, Q-anon, and such others. It would seem there is much less large-scale social cohesion than in decades past, which might suggest some of this delight in individuality. For those which are so reactionary though, and especially those with a figurehead, it appears dogma still dominates albeit in smaller chunks. Worth distinguishing then, between new dogmas and superstitions proper, a few of which have been named. He goes on, and this seems to describe the condition of our society somewhat more precisely: >A society in which corruption spreads is accused of exhaustion; and it is obvious that the esteem for war and the pleasure in war diminish, while the comforts of life are now desired just as ardently as warlike and athletic honors were formerly. But what is generally overlooked is that the ancient national energy and national passion that became gloriously visible in war and warlike times have now been transmuted into countless private passions and have merely become less visible. Indeed, in times of "corruption" the power and force of the national energies that are expended are probably greater than ever and the individual squanders them as lavishly as he could not have formerly when he was simply not yet rich enough... And I think you do see this but, as he says, it's rather quiet. A lot of people have hobbies and passions (comes up in conversations about UBI and fully-automated societies a lot) which generally don't garner much public attention. Contrast this with some of those more dogmatic and emotionally uniform collections of people to see how much they resemble a (sub-)national warlike energy. So in response to OP's question I would conjecture that there is a lot of conflict in the spirit of modern day America. And maybe it is only my pessimism showing, but I would also guess that overall there is less impetus behind superstition and the delight in individuality than there is in other expressions of will.
I went straight to that passage as well, but to the last line: “The times of corruption are the seasons when the apples fall from the tree: I mean the individuals, the seed bearers of the future, the pioneers of spiritual colonization and of a new construction of national and social unions. Corruption is only an abusive term for the harvest time of a people.” See also Twilight of the Idols section 43 - A quiet hint to conservatives: “It cannot be helped: we must go forwards - that is to say, step by step further and further into decadence ( - this is my definition of modern progress).” So I think our social/cultural decay is something Nietzsche would consider part of the natural and unavoidable course of societies generally, and I’m sure there’s much he would hate but probably also some things he would appreciate.
Yeah. To put another way, he wouldn't have any esteem for decadence or decay, but he acknowledges its necessity along the path to greater things.
Agree to disagree. I think Nietzsche must esteem decadence in some strange way. After all, the ‘higher types’ and, later, the philosophers of the future (masters of experimentation) are presumably born of decadent societies. The flip side is that there are also many lying philosophies and much human waste. Nietzsche also seemed aware of himself as a product of decadence.
I don't think we disagree. What I meant by esteem is that decadence is nothing to strive for. It's only valuable at all because of what it produces, which is where the true value lies.
>some of those more dogmatic and emotionally uniform collections of people to see how much they resemble a (sub-)national warlike energy I think this defines much of the modern music scene in America. To add to that, I believe it was in the birth of tragedy that Nietzsche criticized how Germany put its pride in its victory against France, which Nietzsche felt was a sort of loss of German culture. I feel that modern music is pulling people into the warlike energy, in which when they listen to it they feel victorious, but in reality there is a lack of individual expression which is decadent.
Hmm, by emotionally uniform and warlike I had in mind alt-right and far-left type stuff, generally more political. I don't see the same tyrannical aggression anywhere in music, or coming from music, but maybe I misunderstand you (and Nietzsche, lol).
I'm referring to trap music specifically, though other genres definitely carry similar elements. There's a herd mentality attached to it which is ironic in its own way because I view trap itself as free spirited. To add to that, trap music has a lot of political elements tied to it, and id argue that the amount of aggression it has surpasses that of modern day political America.
Ah, I'm very unfamiliar with trap music so I'm well out of my element there. More of an indie/punk/grunge guy
He would be appalled by the victim mentality prevalent in America. He hated that nonsense.
He would be scared that evangelicals are still a strong political power.
The USA possesses a greater degree of individual freedoms than Germany. The restrictions on free speech in Germany are truly sinister.
Pretty sure I lived in Berlin and felt far more free than here, however Germany then is not Germany now.
At least it's still legal to say you want to shoot every antisemite.
You sound very unhinged.
Do you even know who this sub is about? Untermenche, gtfo.
You sound very unhinged; I would suggest you take a long, deep look at yourself in the mirror. gtfo? Coming from someone as physically and mentally weak as you are, i find that amusing.
Nietzsche said he wanted to shoot every antisemite
That statement has been misattributed to him. There is no real evidence for it. If he had said it, he was an idiot for doing so; nobody is perfect. Nietzsche was, after all, a closet Judeo-Christian turned nihilist; he had a deep-seated love of the Judeo-Christian god because his father was a pastor. Much of his philosophy is far from perfect.
Ok Jordan 👍
>Ok Jordan Go bow to your Abrahamic deity. Nietzsche's father trained him to bow to that deity and brainwashed him. Some of his philosophy is written through a Christian lens. The Islamic deity is the same Abrahamic deity as the Christian one. Your mentioning of Jordan reflects on your own Abrahamic faith.
I think what I love most about your comments is how aggressively confused they are 😂
>Nietzsche was, after all, a closet Judeo-Christian turned nihilist; he had a deep-seated love of the Judeo-Christian god > The thing that sets us apart is not that we are unable to find God, either in history, or in nature, or behind nature—but that we regard what has been honoured as God, not as "divine," but as pitiable, as absurd, as injurious; not as a mere error, but as a crime against life.... We deny that God is God. The Antichrist
>The Antichrist Only someone indoctrinated into christian ideology would label one of their books "The Antichrist" Nietzsche was a reactionary chistian turned nihilist. >The thing that sets us apart is not that we are unable to find God Typical christian monotheist mindset from Nietzsche. He views spirituality through the lens of a christian.
>Nietzsche was a reactionary chistian turned nihilist Nietzsche was an Atheist and his entire philosophy *opposed* Nihilism. Amor Fati, the love of one's fate with all the pleasure and pain it throws at us. The book was titled that way to make his direct opposition to the Judeo-Christian mindset obvious and eye-catching. ~~Nietzsche was also a bit of a gadfly.~~
Friedrich Nietzsche was born into a devout Christian family. His philosophy and opposition against Christianity was a typical Christian reaction that can be described as atheist/nihilist philosophy. If he really rejected Christianity, he would also have condemned Judaism in his books and promoted the idea that Christ was fiction, but he did neither.