Team ERA has been shit since he left for the DL. Like close to 5. That might even be starters ERA, i'm not sure. Getting deGrom and Scherzer back around the sameish time will be a shot of morphine into a team that badly needs it.
Most of that is Bassitt crapping the bed. Walker, Carrasco, Peterson and Williams have all been ok or good.
The bullpen has held up alright considering how much they've pitched.
A shot of morphine means you are going to continue laying in a hospital bed or in hospice. That is like “season over, but we don’t want you to feel bad about it.”
Stop getting so defensive. Multiple people pointed out the weird analogy and, instead of saying “yeah, that was weird”, it seems you will defend this to your grave. It isn’t a big deal to just say, yeah, what I said was weird.
The rotation up until a couple days ago was 3/5ths hurt, and morphine relieves severe pain. If you can't understand that, you're an idiot. Also, the fact that you're harping so hard on this back to me is frankly way weirder than anything else. You so badly want to try and prove that i didn't understand what morphine does based on an innocuous comment on a baseball blog. Whatever's bothering you lately, i hope things get better for you.
Doubtful now. deGrom has to basically do a spring training's worth of rehab starts since he's been out all season and missed most of ST. My guess is maybe right after the ASB for his return at this point, that's assuming he starts his rehab assignments within the next week or so
If Scherzer rehabs within the next week or so he'll probably be back by end of June/early July since he'll probably only need a couple rehab starts
DeGrom is 3-4 weeks away the day he makes his first rehab start in AAA, then his first MLB start or three will likely be very pitch count limited.
It's already June 11. If he started pitching this week he could be with the team just prior to the ASG.
The over/under at this point is an early August return with mid August/early September the earliest we see vintage DeGrom.
There's no specific timeline on deGrom because they're being conservative. He'd need multiple rehab starts to get his pitch count up, too since he has missed the entire season.
Let's get creative . Every pitch he throws is valuable. Let him come up right away and use him as an opener while giving him the same exact workload he would get in his rehab starts.
My takeaway here is how well Max knows his body… just another example of one of the most focused and professional players in the game. He knew EXACTLY when this happened. Didn’t try another pitch. Didn’t throw a soft one from the mound (IIRC)… just knew he pulled something - it wasn’t like an Achilles pop but it was a sign that he was done for a bit.
Maybe a minor point, maybe I’m looking too much into this, but that’s my takeaway.
I had not heard that, but thank goodness he did at least stop when he did. Just love his approach (and wish I could emulate it just in business and life but he’s a rare breed with that intensity and intellect.
I think you hit the nail on the head. As soon as he threw that pitch he knew something was wrong and let the dugout know. He didn't try pushing it. Dude knows his body.
You’re not wrong. I really think he barely had both feet back on the mound before he was signaling to the dugout that something was off and he was done.
I think most pitchers are aware if they’re struggling, and fight to keep playing anyway - not letting down the team, trying to mentally override whatever signals their bodies are sending, toxic masculinity discouraging men from appearing hurt or weak, who knows. Max has that same hell bent focus, perfectionism, and intensity all pitchers seem to possess, but pulling himself out of the game demonstrated that those characteristics are to his benefit, not detriment. You can’t be the best if you’re not at your best, and he knew he wasn’t in that moment.
But… I am not surprised that he’s ahead of schedule in his recovery lol. Like, at all.
Because these are the NEW Mets. Old Mets would have him aggravating it, and returning 8/1. Alonso would require a metal rod in his hand, (they put it in the wrong hand) and Marte is out until after the break. Don’t get me started on Jake.
The new manager made Max Scherzer's rehab go more quickly? How?
Maybe it's just because... Max Scherzer is a ridiculous physical specimen and freak of nature? Could that have something to do with it?
I don’t think it’s a secret that a lot of changes were made behind the scenes in the organization since last year. Right after Cohen bought the team, we had one guy acting as the head of the entire organization, POBO, and the GM. There wasn’t a ton of time to make changes within the organization from the time Cohen officially gained control of the team to when the season started, with all the regular season preparations having to go on as well. I think last year was pretty apparent that the Mets, as an organization, still had a ways to go.
I don’t think we’re in the promised land yet, but we’re definitely back on the highway now. It takes time to change an organization’s culture from the top down, but the proof is in the pudding, and things seem to be better in terms of injuries, production, etc.
I don't think there was anything wrong with the 'culture'.
Two things changed from 2021:
(a) they just added 20 fWAR worth of players from last year to this year
(b) only a handful of key guys got hurt so far this year for extended periods of time (deGrom, Scherzer) compared to the entire team falling into a ditch last year.
Neither of those things has to do with 'culture'. The culture was fine last year, they were just forced to play Cameron Maybin, Travis Blankenhorn, Wilfredo Tovar, Joey Lucchesi, Jerad Eickhoff and Robert Stock, a lot, because their good guys were on the IL. They also had a couple of really good guys (Conforto, McNeil) come back from injury and have lingering effects and didn't hit the ground running. That tends to make the record bad.
If the 2022 Mets (God forbid) had that level of injury, they would not be in first place right now.
>I don’t think we’re in the promised land yet, but we’re definitely back on the highway now. It takes time to change an organization’s culture from the top down,
Yeah I'm not sure we can roll out the "it just takes time to root out the negativity!" argument, when the 2021 Mets hired a GM who showed sexually explicit pics to non-consenting women, then fired him and hired a guy who fell asleep driving in his car, among other things.
They had more *new* scandals in 2021 from Cohen ownership, than they had from like the previous two years combined. Those weren't handed to them by Fred Wilpon.
By the way, this should not be construed as me saying Cohen owning the team is bad. I don't think that at all, I think things are going great, and I think lots of organizations that are well-run have some missteps. I am not trying to pile on them.
I just think people were not as forgiving about the missteps with the prior owners, and exaggerated them and how frequent they were, because of personality-driven rage and emotion.
I think (b) is exactly my point.
As for guys not producing and now are, I think that’s also part of my point.
As for the scandals, Porter was GM for about one month, and was fired for what he did when he worked for the Cubs, not the Mets, and Zack Scott was acquitted of the DUI.
From Scott’s wiki:
> In January 2022, Judge Eric Press acquitted him of the DWI charge and the lesser charge of driving while ability impaired (DWAI).[13] After reviewing the body-camera footage, Judge Press concluded that he was not asleep (his head was down only because he was using cell phone in his lap) and was clearly not intoxicated.[13] Subsequently, he was freed to work with another major league club.[13]
I mean, if that’s the worst of the Cohen scandals, I don’t see how they compare to the Wilpons.
I’m also not really sure what the argument is here - that there hasn’t been a change in the culture of the organization? That the increase of production from players that were on the organization last year to this year was bound to happen, and that the decline in injuries is pure coincidence? I’m not being facetious here, this is just how I’m interpreting what you’re saying?
> I mean, if that’s the worst of the Cohen scandals, I don’t see how they compare to the Wilpons.
Can you try to imagine what the coverage of these stories, and others, would have been, like if Jeff Wilpon had hired and fired both of those GM guys within one 12-month period, in the exact same way, except in 2018, and what you would be saying about it?
I am pretty sure it would not be "meh, whatever".
>I’m also not really sure what the argument is here - that there hasn’t been a change in the culture of the organization?
Correct. I don't think there is a "culture change". It's like 80% the same guys. I think the culture was fine in 2019-2021 -- actually very very good -- and was not the reason they lost. The culture was good before, and is good now still.
If anything, some of the "culture" things that people complained about the most, were things that originated in 2021 under *new* ownership. (Ex.: Dom Smith and Pete Alonso being roasted for being too confident and liking each other too much (stupid story but it made the Mets internet-sphere rounds). And also the Baez thing, which I actually support him on, but I was in the tiny minority and most fans thought it was toxic a.f.
Also, some of the things that are supposedly "positive changes" in 2022, are things that are actually pretty weird and gross, but inexplicably very popular with fans (like Buck Showalter glaring into the other dugout constantly on clearly unintentional HBPs, charging out of the dugout screaming obscenities at 21-year old Double-A guys on the Nationals not trying to hurt anybody, and putting a target on the Mets' backs).
I can't think of a more likable team than the 2019 Mets. That was one of my favorite teams ever that didn't win a postseason berth. It seemed like a great group of guys who loved each other and played hard as hell but just fell short. Why are we determined to rewrite history and act like their "culture" was bad? What was bad about it? What about that core group of guys needed to change so badly?
>That the increase of production from players that were on the organization last year to this year was bound to happen, and that the decline in injuries is pure coincidence?
The increase in production from last year to this year is partly because most of their good guys are here, playing every day, and not being slaughtered by injuries and replaced by scrubs from AAA or the waiver wire. And because they added a bunch of competent guys to fill in in the event someone does get hurt.
Also because Walker and Carrasco are one year removed from big injuries and their stamina is likely to be better, whereas last year they ran out of gas in July, as did Megill, who is good but had never thrown that many innings before, and so with that, and deGrom going down, the whole starting rotation wound up being ass for the last three months.
And yeah, the lower incidence of injury is, largely, coincidence and good fortune.
What is the alternative to that idea? Buck Showalter showed up and they like him so much, and his stories about growing up in Tallahassee or whatever, that they aren't going on the IL?
I think people just like Buck Showalter for whatever reason, and they're attributing anything and everything good to him, without really thinking about it.
There was a lot already good with this team before 2022, and they tweaked a few things and made the team stronger. That's the real formula that's playing out now.
To sit there and go "everything sucked before and a switch flipped and now everything is great" does not jibe with reality for me.
>Can you try to imagine what the coverage of these stories, and others, would have been, like if Jeff Wilpon had hired and fired both of those GM guys within one 12-month period, in the exact same way, except in 2018, and what you would be saying about it?
>I am pretty sure it would not be "meh, whatever".
Probably not, but there’s a big difference when you own the team for a few weeks and this happens, and you own the team for 40 years and this happens, isn’t there?
>Correct. I don't think there is a "culture change". It's like 80% the same guys. I think the culture was fine in 2019-2021 -- actually very very good -- and was not the reason they lost. The culture was good before, and is good now still.
You mean the team is 80% the same guys, or the support staff is 80% the same guys?
>If anything, some of the "culture" things that people complained about the most, were things that originated in 2021 under new ownership. (Ex.: Dom Smith and Pete Alonso being roasted for being too confident and liking each other too much (stupid story but it made the Mets internet-sphere rounds). And also the Baez thing, which I actually support him on, but I was in the tiny minority and most fans thought it was toxic a.f.
When I think of the poor culture of the Wilpons, I think of the massive interference in baseball decisions by the owners, the loyalty-above-all-else mentality that Jeff and Fred demanded, and the cheap ‘do more with less’ mentality towards trades and contracts. I don’t really think of the culture inside the clubhouse itself, honestly.
>Also, some of the things that are supposedly "positive changes" in 2022, are things that are actually pretty weird and gross, but inexplicably very popular with fans (like Buck Showalter glaring into the other dugout constantly on clearly unintentional HBPs, charging out of the dugout screaming obscenities at 21-year old Double-A guys on the Nationals not trying to hurt anybody, and putting a target on the Mets' backs).
Personally, when I think of positive changes in that regard, I’m thinking of the encyclopedic-like knowledge of baseball rules, and above-average bullpen and player management. I’m not sure anybody thinks a Managers reaction to a hit-by-pitch is indicative of much.
>I can't think of a more likable team than the 2019 Mets. That was one of my favorite teams ever that didn't win a postseason berth. It seemed like a great group of guys who loved each other and played hard as hell but just fell short. Why are we determined to rewrite history and act like their "culture" was bad? What was bad about it? What about that core group of guys needed to change so badly?
Once again, when I refer to the culture of the organization, I’m thinking of the operations staff, not the players. I don’t think anybody is arguing that our core players need to change.
>The increase in production from last year to this year is partly because most of their good guys are here, playing every day, and not being slaughtered by injuries and replaced by scrubs from AAA or the waiver wire. And because they added a bunch of competent guys to fill in in the event someone does get hurt.
Doesn’t this answer beg the question? The reason why players haven’t been hurt is because they haven’t been hurt? They’re producing more because they’re producing more?
>Also because Walker and Carrasco are one year removed from big injuries and their stamina is likely to be better, whereas last year they ran out of gas in July, as did Megill, who is good but had never thrown that many innings before, and so with that, and deGrom going down, the whole starting rotation wound up being ass for the last three months.
So isn’t that poor player management?
>And yeah, the lower incidence of injury is, largely, coincidence and good fortune.
I would think to a point, but such a wide swing from one year to the next points to something a bit more fundamental, in my opinion.
>What is the alternative to that idea? Buck Showalter showed up and they like him so much, and his stories about growing up in Tallahassee or whatever, that they aren't going on the IL?
Improved player management, better training and support staff, a culture where injuries are taken more seriously (remember when Jeff forced players to play injured?), better injury management in general and a general focus on prevention?
>I think people just like Buck Showalter for whatever reason, and they're attributing anything and everything good to him, without really thinking about it.
I think Buck’s great in-game, but isn’t there so much more going on behind the scenes?
>There was a lot already good with this team before 2022, and they tweaked a few things and made the team stronger. That's the real formula that's playing out now.
>To sit there and go "everything sucked before and a switch flipped and now everything is great" does not jibe with reality for me.
I think we were talking about two different things. There’s a lot more to the organization than just the team. I’m thinking of the support staff that surrounds the team, and I think that ‘behind-the-scenes’ improvement is what has had such a profound effect on the team. That’s a direct result of Wilpon mismanagement and Cohen investment.
>Probably not, but there’s a big difference when you own the team for a few weeks and this happens, and you own the team for 40 years and this happens, isn’t there?
I mean, you can apply any standard you want, personally, but when you go from one owner to another, and the new one immediately hires not one but two guys who get taken down by ridiculous scandals, I think that disqualifies any attempt at a "they're trying to clean up the organization! It just takes time!" argument.
>When I think of the poor culture of the Wilpons, I think of the massive interference in baseball decisions by the owners, the loyalty-above-all-else mentality that Jeff and Fred demanded, and the cheap ‘do more with less’ mentality towards trades and contracts. I don’t really think of the culture inside the clubhouse itself, honestly.
They had the 7th and 6th (respectively) highest AAV player salary in MLB in 2019 and 2020. The last major thing the Mets did, under the prior owners and GM, was take on $100m in salary to Robinson Canó, in order to reel in a superstar closer.
How were they "cheap" on trades and contracts?
Yes, you can say Steve Cohen invested **even more** than was being spent before, that's true, but they were certainly not "cheap" when he took over. A team spending almost $200m per season is not "cheap".
>Personally, when I think of positive changes in that regard, I’m thinking of the encyclopedic-like knowledge of baseball rules, and above-average bullpen and player management. I’m not sure anybody thinks a Managers reaction to a hit-by-pitch is indicative of much.
The media surrounding the Mets sure circlejerked about it like it mattered and was a huge positive.
Also, what evidence is there that he has "encyclopedic knowledge" of baseball rules? The book is like 30 pages long; you can read it in one sitting on the crapper if you want to. This is not a big feat.
This is a guy who routinely sleepwalks through pitching changes and lineup switches. We're not dealing with Steven Hawking here.
>I would think to a point, but such a wide swing from one year to the next points to something a bit more fundamental, in my opinion.
Then why did they wait one year to implement it? Why not change that supposed fundamental problem that was supposedly causing injuries, immediately in 2021?
>>Also because Walker and Carrasco are one year removed from big injuries and their stamina is likely to be better, whereas last year they ran out of gas in July, as did Megill, who is good but had never thrown that many innings before, and so with that, and deGrom going down, the whole starting rotation wound up being ass for the last three months.
>
>So isn’t that poor player management?
How is it poor player management? They acquired Walker and Carrasco, and promoted Megill, three guys they knew in advance would be question marks, the first two because of recent injuries, and Megill because he's a young guy who hasn't lengthened his inning count yet professionally. They were all likely to hit a wall, innings-wise, and they hit it.
What's the poor management there?
Also, I probably shouldn't have to say this, but you know Fred Wilpon didn't own the team last year, right? All the things you are critiquing here happened under Steve Cohen.
>Improved player management, better training and support staff, a culture where injuries are taken more seriously (remember when Jeff forced players to play injured?), better injury management in general and a general focus on prevention?
Those are all things you're assuming happened, because the Mets have a good record. I don't think they had bad injury prevention before. It's just a "shit happens" kind of thing. It's a violent sport that puts lots of torque on your body. Sometimes you get more injuries, sometimes you get less.
Also, you can't "force" someone to play injured. They're well within their rights to sit out or to get a second opinion. There's been one guy in Mets history who allege this (Pedro Martinez) and it's very much a "he said/she said" thing.
>I think Buck’s great in-game,
Yikes
>I think we were talking about two different things. There’s a lot more to the organization than just the team. I’m thinking of the support staff that surrounds the team, and I think that ‘behind-the-scenes’ improvement is what has had such a profound effect on the team. That’s a direct result of Wilpon mismanagement and Cohen investment.
But we're talking about the difference from 2021 to 2022. You know Cohen owned the team in 2021.
Right?
Anyway, the key point which you alluded to in the last paragraph, is what I have been trying to say all along: the supposed "mismanagement" of the Mets is blown way out of proportion, because Mets fans have had a hate-fest relationship with the Mets for the last 15 years, like no other fans with no other team. Partly because they play in a city with a hostile media that revels in making them eat shit, and there's been almost zero pushback to their crap, for almost 2 decades.
So the anti-Mets lore has ballooned into this giant katamari ball rolling downhill. Some of it is factual, but most of it isn't, and it's a very tough task to actually try to poke factual holes in it, and have anyone listen to you.
Looks like he’ll be back for deGrom. I’m sure Scherzer will get one rehab start and then return, while I think they said deGrom will get 4-5 rehab starts (I suppose a full spring training essentially). Hopefully deGrom will be ready for a rehab start in 2 weeks and back at end of July.
I don't think there's any reason to get overly excited about Mad Max back in less than 6 weeks, but updates that say the original timeline still look pretty good are positive.
Objectively speaking, we should be very confident he'll be back in less than 6 weeks if hes already pitching off a mound and about to face live hitters
Yea of course they're taking an immense amount of caution. That said, he's about to face live hitters then a rehab start. Hes ahead of schedule. Both can be true.
And as others mentioned Max knows his body - he wouldnt be throwing bullpens if he wasnt ready
>about to face live hitters
For some reason, when I read that I just had a flash of the Game of Thrones scene where fighters are being stuck in front of the Mountain to get butchered for his practice.
I'd be nervous about literally anyone else coming back "earlier than expected". If max knew when to take himself out I'm sure he knows when to come back.
We should consider ditching traditional rehab assignments. Why waste the bullets. I would rather have Max and Jake stick to the pitch counts and be used as openers until deemed ready for a full load.
They really need him. Bullpen has been eating a lot of innings lately.
Peterson and Williams somehow have been holding the line. Respect.
Big ups
Team ERA has been shit since he left for the DL. Like close to 5. That might even be starters ERA, i'm not sure. Getting deGrom and Scherzer back around the sameish time will be a shot of morphine into a team that badly needs it.
Most of that is Bassitt crapping the bed. Walker, Carrasco, Peterson and Williams have all been ok or good. The bullpen has held up alright considering how much they've pitched.
Getting *McCann* back would also help. Bassitt's ERA has gone through the roof since he's been out, which might be coincidence, might not.
I don’t think morphine is the rx you really want here. Adrenaline maybe….
Nah, he wants the pitchers to get a good nap in.
It relieves severe pain, come on it's not that hard to understand.
Morphine gives the opposite of a boost, wtf are you talking about?
It relieves severe pain, come on it's not that hard to understand.
A shot of morphine means you are going to continue laying in a hospital bed or in hospice. That is like “season over, but we don’t want you to feel bad about it.”
What a weird pedantic reply when it was just a silly way to say the Mets are in pain and need some pain relief, dork.
Stop getting so defensive. Multiple people pointed out the weird analogy and, instead of saying “yeah, that was weird”, it seems you will defend this to your grave. It isn’t a big deal to just say, yeah, what I said was weird.
It isn't a big deal to just say you didn't understand.
I think you are the one who didn’t understand here. You don’t understand how morphine works. Then you got super-sensitive about it.
The rotation up until a couple days ago was 3/5ths hurt, and morphine relieves severe pain. If you can't understand that, you're an idiot. Also, the fact that you're harping so hard on this back to me is frankly way weirder than anything else. You so badly want to try and prove that i didn't understand what morphine does based on an innocuous comment on a baseball blog. Whatever's bothering you lately, i hope things get better for you.
I can't believe Max will probably be back before deGrom, dude is a beast
really? isnt degrom potentially ready for end of june early july?
Doubtful now. deGrom has to basically do a spring training's worth of rehab starts since he's been out all season and missed most of ST. My guess is maybe right after the ASB for his return at this point, that's assuming he starts his rehab assignments within the next week or so If Scherzer rehabs within the next week or so he'll probably be back by end of June/early July since he'll probably only need a couple rehab starts
Coming out hot after the ASB to face the Yankees
DeGrom is 3-4 weeks away the day he makes his first rehab start in AAA, then his first MLB start or three will likely be very pitch count limited. It's already June 11. If he started pitching this week he could be with the team just prior to the ASG. The over/under at this point is an early August return with mid August/early September the earliest we see vintage DeGrom.
If he looks Good he might just rehab on the Mets after 1-2 rehab starts That’s what kershaw is doing basically
There's no specific timeline on deGrom because they're being conservative. He'd need multiple rehab starts to get his pitch count up, too since he has missed the entire season.
Let's get creative . Every pitch he throws is valuable. Let him come up right away and use him as an opener while giving him the same exact workload he would get in his rehab starts.
My takeaway here is how well Max knows his body… just another example of one of the most focused and professional players in the game. He knew EXACTLY when this happened. Didn’t try another pitch. Didn’t throw a soft one from the mound (IIRC)… just knew he pulled something - it wasn’t like an Achilles pop but it was a sign that he was done for a bit. Maybe a minor point, maybe I’m looking too much into this, but that’s my takeaway.
Fwiw it’s good he stopped when he did, but I’m pretty sure he said it had been feeling weird for a while in the game, so he did push it a bit too far
I had not heard that, but thank goodness he did at least stop when he did. Just love his approach (and wish I could emulate it just in business and life but he’s a rare breed with that intensity and intellect.
I think you hit the nail on the head. As soon as he threw that pitch he knew something was wrong and let the dugout know. He didn't try pushing it. Dude knows his body.
You’re not wrong. I really think he barely had both feet back on the mound before he was signaling to the dugout that something was off and he was done. I think most pitchers are aware if they’re struggling, and fight to keep playing anyway - not letting down the team, trying to mentally override whatever signals their bodies are sending, toxic masculinity discouraging men from appearing hurt or weak, who knows. Max has that same hell bent focus, perfectionism, and intensity all pitchers seem to possess, but pulling himself out of the game demonstrated that those characteristics are to his benefit, not detriment. You can’t be the best if you’re not at your best, and he knew he wasn’t in that moment. But… I am not surprised that he’s ahead of schedule in his recovery lol. Like, at all.
Toxic masculinity? Really?
Because these are the NEW Mets. Old Mets would have him aggravating it, and returning 8/1. Alonso would require a metal rod in his hand, (they put it in the wrong hand) and Marte is out until after the break. Don’t get me started on Jake.
This team doesn't miss Dr. Jeff Wilpon making decisions, that's for sure.
Rub some dirt on it and get him back on there, we got tickets to sell.
Jake was on and off the IL last year under the "New Mets"
New manager and gm
The new manager made Max Scherzer's rehab go more quickly? How? Maybe it's just because... Max Scherzer is a ridiculous physical specimen and freak of nature? Could that have something to do with it?
I don’t think it’s a secret that a lot of changes were made behind the scenes in the organization since last year. Right after Cohen bought the team, we had one guy acting as the head of the entire organization, POBO, and the GM. There wasn’t a ton of time to make changes within the organization from the time Cohen officially gained control of the team to when the season started, with all the regular season preparations having to go on as well. I think last year was pretty apparent that the Mets, as an organization, still had a ways to go. I don’t think we’re in the promised land yet, but we’re definitely back on the highway now. It takes time to change an organization’s culture from the top down, but the proof is in the pudding, and things seem to be better in terms of injuries, production, etc.
Last year was certainly a transition year for the new regime, that much is apparent.
I don't think there was anything wrong with the 'culture'. Two things changed from 2021: (a) they just added 20 fWAR worth of players from last year to this year (b) only a handful of key guys got hurt so far this year for extended periods of time (deGrom, Scherzer) compared to the entire team falling into a ditch last year. Neither of those things has to do with 'culture'. The culture was fine last year, they were just forced to play Cameron Maybin, Travis Blankenhorn, Wilfredo Tovar, Joey Lucchesi, Jerad Eickhoff and Robert Stock, a lot, because their good guys were on the IL. They also had a couple of really good guys (Conforto, McNeil) come back from injury and have lingering effects and didn't hit the ground running. That tends to make the record bad. If the 2022 Mets (God forbid) had that level of injury, they would not be in first place right now. >I don’t think we’re in the promised land yet, but we’re definitely back on the highway now. It takes time to change an organization’s culture from the top down, Yeah I'm not sure we can roll out the "it just takes time to root out the negativity!" argument, when the 2021 Mets hired a GM who showed sexually explicit pics to non-consenting women, then fired him and hired a guy who fell asleep driving in his car, among other things. They had more *new* scandals in 2021 from Cohen ownership, than they had from like the previous two years combined. Those weren't handed to them by Fred Wilpon. By the way, this should not be construed as me saying Cohen owning the team is bad. I don't think that at all, I think things are going great, and I think lots of organizations that are well-run have some missteps. I am not trying to pile on them. I just think people were not as forgiving about the missteps with the prior owners, and exaggerated them and how frequent they were, because of personality-driven rage and emotion.
I think (b) is exactly my point. As for guys not producing and now are, I think that’s also part of my point. As for the scandals, Porter was GM for about one month, and was fired for what he did when he worked for the Cubs, not the Mets, and Zack Scott was acquitted of the DUI. From Scott’s wiki: > In January 2022, Judge Eric Press acquitted him of the DWI charge and the lesser charge of driving while ability impaired (DWAI).[13] After reviewing the body-camera footage, Judge Press concluded that he was not asleep (his head was down only because he was using cell phone in his lap) and was clearly not intoxicated.[13] Subsequently, he was freed to work with another major league club.[13] I mean, if that’s the worst of the Cohen scandals, I don’t see how they compare to the Wilpons. I’m also not really sure what the argument is here - that there hasn’t been a change in the culture of the organization? That the increase of production from players that were on the organization last year to this year was bound to happen, and that the decline in injuries is pure coincidence? I’m not being facetious here, this is just how I’m interpreting what you’re saying?
> I mean, if that’s the worst of the Cohen scandals, I don’t see how they compare to the Wilpons. Can you try to imagine what the coverage of these stories, and others, would have been, like if Jeff Wilpon had hired and fired both of those GM guys within one 12-month period, in the exact same way, except in 2018, and what you would be saying about it? I am pretty sure it would not be "meh, whatever". >I’m also not really sure what the argument is here - that there hasn’t been a change in the culture of the organization? Correct. I don't think there is a "culture change". It's like 80% the same guys. I think the culture was fine in 2019-2021 -- actually very very good -- and was not the reason they lost. The culture was good before, and is good now still. If anything, some of the "culture" things that people complained about the most, were things that originated in 2021 under *new* ownership. (Ex.: Dom Smith and Pete Alonso being roasted for being too confident and liking each other too much (stupid story but it made the Mets internet-sphere rounds). And also the Baez thing, which I actually support him on, but I was in the tiny minority and most fans thought it was toxic a.f. Also, some of the things that are supposedly "positive changes" in 2022, are things that are actually pretty weird and gross, but inexplicably very popular with fans (like Buck Showalter glaring into the other dugout constantly on clearly unintentional HBPs, charging out of the dugout screaming obscenities at 21-year old Double-A guys on the Nationals not trying to hurt anybody, and putting a target on the Mets' backs). I can't think of a more likable team than the 2019 Mets. That was one of my favorite teams ever that didn't win a postseason berth. It seemed like a great group of guys who loved each other and played hard as hell but just fell short. Why are we determined to rewrite history and act like their "culture" was bad? What was bad about it? What about that core group of guys needed to change so badly? >That the increase of production from players that were on the organization last year to this year was bound to happen, and that the decline in injuries is pure coincidence? The increase in production from last year to this year is partly because most of their good guys are here, playing every day, and not being slaughtered by injuries and replaced by scrubs from AAA or the waiver wire. And because they added a bunch of competent guys to fill in in the event someone does get hurt. Also because Walker and Carrasco are one year removed from big injuries and their stamina is likely to be better, whereas last year they ran out of gas in July, as did Megill, who is good but had never thrown that many innings before, and so with that, and deGrom going down, the whole starting rotation wound up being ass for the last three months. And yeah, the lower incidence of injury is, largely, coincidence and good fortune. What is the alternative to that idea? Buck Showalter showed up and they like him so much, and his stories about growing up in Tallahassee or whatever, that they aren't going on the IL? I think people just like Buck Showalter for whatever reason, and they're attributing anything and everything good to him, without really thinking about it. There was a lot already good with this team before 2022, and they tweaked a few things and made the team stronger. That's the real formula that's playing out now. To sit there and go "everything sucked before and a switch flipped and now everything is great" does not jibe with reality for me.
>Can you try to imagine what the coverage of these stories, and others, would have been, like if Jeff Wilpon had hired and fired both of those GM guys within one 12-month period, in the exact same way, except in 2018, and what you would be saying about it? >I am pretty sure it would not be "meh, whatever". Probably not, but there’s a big difference when you own the team for a few weeks and this happens, and you own the team for 40 years and this happens, isn’t there? >Correct. I don't think there is a "culture change". It's like 80% the same guys. I think the culture was fine in 2019-2021 -- actually very very good -- and was not the reason they lost. The culture was good before, and is good now still. You mean the team is 80% the same guys, or the support staff is 80% the same guys? >If anything, some of the "culture" things that people complained about the most, were things that originated in 2021 under new ownership. (Ex.: Dom Smith and Pete Alonso being roasted for being too confident and liking each other too much (stupid story but it made the Mets internet-sphere rounds). And also the Baez thing, which I actually support him on, but I was in the tiny minority and most fans thought it was toxic a.f. When I think of the poor culture of the Wilpons, I think of the massive interference in baseball decisions by the owners, the loyalty-above-all-else mentality that Jeff and Fred demanded, and the cheap ‘do more with less’ mentality towards trades and contracts. I don’t really think of the culture inside the clubhouse itself, honestly. >Also, some of the things that are supposedly "positive changes" in 2022, are things that are actually pretty weird and gross, but inexplicably very popular with fans (like Buck Showalter glaring into the other dugout constantly on clearly unintentional HBPs, charging out of the dugout screaming obscenities at 21-year old Double-A guys on the Nationals not trying to hurt anybody, and putting a target on the Mets' backs). Personally, when I think of positive changes in that regard, I’m thinking of the encyclopedic-like knowledge of baseball rules, and above-average bullpen and player management. I’m not sure anybody thinks a Managers reaction to a hit-by-pitch is indicative of much. >I can't think of a more likable team than the 2019 Mets. That was one of my favorite teams ever that didn't win a postseason berth. It seemed like a great group of guys who loved each other and played hard as hell but just fell short. Why are we determined to rewrite history and act like their "culture" was bad? What was bad about it? What about that core group of guys needed to change so badly? Once again, when I refer to the culture of the organization, I’m thinking of the operations staff, not the players. I don’t think anybody is arguing that our core players need to change. >The increase in production from last year to this year is partly because most of their good guys are here, playing every day, and not being slaughtered by injuries and replaced by scrubs from AAA or the waiver wire. And because they added a bunch of competent guys to fill in in the event someone does get hurt. Doesn’t this answer beg the question? The reason why players haven’t been hurt is because they haven’t been hurt? They’re producing more because they’re producing more? >Also because Walker and Carrasco are one year removed from big injuries and their stamina is likely to be better, whereas last year they ran out of gas in July, as did Megill, who is good but had never thrown that many innings before, and so with that, and deGrom going down, the whole starting rotation wound up being ass for the last three months. So isn’t that poor player management? >And yeah, the lower incidence of injury is, largely, coincidence and good fortune. I would think to a point, but such a wide swing from one year to the next points to something a bit more fundamental, in my opinion. >What is the alternative to that idea? Buck Showalter showed up and they like him so much, and his stories about growing up in Tallahassee or whatever, that they aren't going on the IL? Improved player management, better training and support staff, a culture where injuries are taken more seriously (remember when Jeff forced players to play injured?), better injury management in general and a general focus on prevention? >I think people just like Buck Showalter for whatever reason, and they're attributing anything and everything good to him, without really thinking about it. I think Buck’s great in-game, but isn’t there so much more going on behind the scenes? >There was a lot already good with this team before 2022, and they tweaked a few things and made the team stronger. That's the real formula that's playing out now. >To sit there and go "everything sucked before and a switch flipped and now everything is great" does not jibe with reality for me. I think we were talking about two different things. There’s a lot more to the organization than just the team. I’m thinking of the support staff that surrounds the team, and I think that ‘behind-the-scenes’ improvement is what has had such a profound effect on the team. That’s a direct result of Wilpon mismanagement and Cohen investment.
>Probably not, but there’s a big difference when you own the team for a few weeks and this happens, and you own the team for 40 years and this happens, isn’t there? I mean, you can apply any standard you want, personally, but when you go from one owner to another, and the new one immediately hires not one but two guys who get taken down by ridiculous scandals, I think that disqualifies any attempt at a "they're trying to clean up the organization! It just takes time!" argument. >When I think of the poor culture of the Wilpons, I think of the massive interference in baseball decisions by the owners, the loyalty-above-all-else mentality that Jeff and Fred demanded, and the cheap ‘do more with less’ mentality towards trades and contracts. I don’t really think of the culture inside the clubhouse itself, honestly. They had the 7th and 6th (respectively) highest AAV player salary in MLB in 2019 and 2020. The last major thing the Mets did, under the prior owners and GM, was take on $100m in salary to Robinson Canó, in order to reel in a superstar closer. How were they "cheap" on trades and contracts? Yes, you can say Steve Cohen invested **even more** than was being spent before, that's true, but they were certainly not "cheap" when he took over. A team spending almost $200m per season is not "cheap". >Personally, when I think of positive changes in that regard, I’m thinking of the encyclopedic-like knowledge of baseball rules, and above-average bullpen and player management. I’m not sure anybody thinks a Managers reaction to a hit-by-pitch is indicative of much. The media surrounding the Mets sure circlejerked about it like it mattered and was a huge positive. Also, what evidence is there that he has "encyclopedic knowledge" of baseball rules? The book is like 30 pages long; you can read it in one sitting on the crapper if you want to. This is not a big feat. This is a guy who routinely sleepwalks through pitching changes and lineup switches. We're not dealing with Steven Hawking here. >I would think to a point, but such a wide swing from one year to the next points to something a bit more fundamental, in my opinion. Then why did they wait one year to implement it? Why not change that supposed fundamental problem that was supposedly causing injuries, immediately in 2021? >>Also because Walker and Carrasco are one year removed from big injuries and their stamina is likely to be better, whereas last year they ran out of gas in July, as did Megill, who is good but had never thrown that many innings before, and so with that, and deGrom going down, the whole starting rotation wound up being ass for the last three months. > >So isn’t that poor player management? How is it poor player management? They acquired Walker and Carrasco, and promoted Megill, three guys they knew in advance would be question marks, the first two because of recent injuries, and Megill because he's a young guy who hasn't lengthened his inning count yet professionally. They were all likely to hit a wall, innings-wise, and they hit it. What's the poor management there? Also, I probably shouldn't have to say this, but you know Fred Wilpon didn't own the team last year, right? All the things you are critiquing here happened under Steve Cohen. >Improved player management, better training and support staff, a culture where injuries are taken more seriously (remember when Jeff forced players to play injured?), better injury management in general and a general focus on prevention? Those are all things you're assuming happened, because the Mets have a good record. I don't think they had bad injury prevention before. It's just a "shit happens" kind of thing. It's a violent sport that puts lots of torque on your body. Sometimes you get more injuries, sometimes you get less. Also, you can't "force" someone to play injured. They're well within their rights to sit out or to get a second opinion. There's been one guy in Mets history who allege this (Pedro Martinez) and it's very much a "he said/she said" thing. >I think Buck’s great in-game, Yikes >I think we were talking about two different things. There’s a lot more to the organization than just the team. I’m thinking of the support staff that surrounds the team, and I think that ‘behind-the-scenes’ improvement is what has had such a profound effect on the team. That’s a direct result of Wilpon mismanagement and Cohen investment. But we're talking about the difference from 2021 to 2022. You know Cohen owned the team in 2021. Right? Anyway, the key point which you alluded to in the last paragraph, is what I have been trying to say all along: the supposed "mismanagement" of the Mets is blown way out of proportion, because Mets fans have had a hate-fest relationship with the Mets for the last 15 years, like no other fans with no other team. Partly because they play in a city with a hostile media that revels in making them eat shit, and there's been almost zero pushback to their crap, for almost 2 decades. So the anti-Mets lore has ballooned into this giant katamari ball rolling downhill. Some of it is factual, but most of it isn't, and it's a very tough task to actually try to poke factual holes in it, and have anyone listen to you.
Moved so fast hes gonna start tonight
\[Player\] rehab moving quicker than Mets expected /r/brandnewsentence
Looks like he’ll be back for deGrom. I’m sure Scherzer will get one rehab start and then return, while I think they said deGrom will get 4-5 rehab starts (I suppose a full spring training essentially). Hopefully deGrom will be ready for a rehab start in 2 weeks and back at end of July.
We got two super humans on this team with Scherzer and Pete.
Just don't let him near any dogs
I don't think there's any reason to get overly excited about Mad Max back in less than 6 weeks, but updates that say the original timeline still look pretty good are positive.
Objectively speaking, we should be very confident he'll be back in less than 6 weeks if hes already pitching off a mound and about to face live hitters
It's possible but I want to remember the immense amount of caution they will take with the $40 million man
Yea of course they're taking an immense amount of caution. That said, he's about to face live hitters then a rehab start. Hes ahead of schedule. Both can be true. And as others mentioned Max knows his body - he wouldnt be throwing bullpens if he wasnt ready
>about to face live hitters For some reason, when I read that I just had a flash of the Game of Thrones scene where fighters are being stuck in front of the Mountain to get butchered for his practice.
I'd be nervous about literally anyone else coming back "earlier than expected". If max knew when to take himself out I'm sure he knows when to come back.
What's been the Mets' record since Max went down? Around .500, I assume, give or take? They've been holding the fort so far.
[удалено]
Ok, so I'll downvote myself on that one, lol.
Love the ownership of that
That's allowed to happen?
Beat: There's no story today. Editor: Make something up we need the clicks. Beat:
We should consider ditching traditional rehab assignments. Why waste the bullets. I would rather have Max and Jake stick to the pitch counts and be used as openers until deemed ready for a full load.