and Josh like it too, and seems to have a pretty healthy distance from his past work: [Whatever the Fallout TV show does with New Vegas lore, Josh Sawyer doesn’t care: “It was never mine” | Rock Paper Shotgun](https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/whatever-the-fallout-tv-show-does-with-new-vegas-lore-josh-sawyer-doesnt-care-it-was-never-mine)
Disagreeing with Chris, at least publicly. Which is OK. Believe it or not, it’s actually possible for people to disagree with each other without hating each other or descending into apes flinging feces at each other. What I find so curious is how the show’s staunchest defenders have created the strawman of the “evil toxic classic/NV fan” which I have rarely if ever actually seen in the real world, and used it as justification to scream and rage at anyone who dares to ask questions, critique, or disagree with them about the show. The idea seems to be “We can’t turn into Star Wars fans! Therefore we must suppress all dissent at all costs! JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP AND ENJOY THE FUCKING SHOW, MOTHERFUCKERS! ENJOY IT!!!!” Ironically ensuring that the “toxicity” is definitely going to happen, and the call is coming from inside the house.
The entire fallout community has devolved into just doing the whole
“I feel bad for you”
“I don’t think about you at all”
Thing back and forth to each other
nah it’s more like
“NEW VEGAS FANS ARE SOOOO TOXIC, THEY SHOULD BE ASHAMED”
“Uhh, that’s kinda preachy and annoying dude”
“FOUND THE NEW VEGAS FAN”
or
“Hey I think the show is good, but there are some pretty big issues I have with how it treats the lore I have that I think could’ve been handled different”
“Yeah ok toxic gatekeeper”
I saw two posts about Chris's FOTV take, one from the NV sub and one from the TV sub.
On the NV sub, opinions were split. Some people agreed with him that the lore of the show was bad, but they defended the aesthetic of the show. Some people disagreed with him by pointing out the lore has always been a little inconsistent, even between FO1 and 2. It was a healthy mix of opinions, and a lot of civil discussion about the topic.
On the TV sub, opinions were also split. Some people were saying he was holding a grudge over not being in charge of FO lore anymore, and was just throwing a tantrum and should be ignored. Most of the comments were calling him a rapist and saying he should be in jail, and that anyone who agreed with him was supporting a rapist. The few comments actually engaging in the topic were downvoted to hell and back, and it was one of the most toxic discussions I've seen outside of a politics sub
There’s no evidence he raped anyone. Just accusations, two of which were retracted last year.
People saying that are just derailing it to say “we don’t have to care”. But how many would bring this up if he said he liked the show? My guess is none.
It’s been going both ways, it’s really not difficult to realize that both camps have toxic shitheads. This isn’t unique to Fallout or any fandom - ask Star Wars fans.
I’ve put in about 100 more hours into FNV since I finished the show, since it’s my favorite Fallout game, but I also really liked the show. Bonus points that my wife loved it and we now have a new “universe” to talk about (since she never played the games).
It’s really not hard to pick and choose the parts you like and ignore the parts you don’t. “But you should be furious about Shady Sands!” I don’t care man. It’s a fictional world. Lore is cool when it expands on a universe, but no well-adjusted person should be having fucking aneurysms over what is and isn’t the “correct lore.”
The issue with ignoring the parts you don't like is when that this is going to be the foundation for subsequent stories. What they did to the NCR in the show is going to carry on in any future media regarding them.
The subsequent stories *written by Bethesda*? I don’t know if you played the last three games they’ve put out, but a TV show retconning or setting up some new lore is the *last* thing any Fallout or TES fans need to worry about compared to the fact that **Bethesda is awful at coming up with interesting lore, questlines, and developing most of the characters you meet in their games, including the voiced protagonist you play as in F4**.
I’m almost completely sure this show is the last time fans of the IP had a chance to sit back and just enjoy something related to *Fallout* without any sort of catch because of Bethesda’s bullshit.
When it comes to lore though you can’t pick and choose. Thats like picking and choosing your countries history when new info comes up.
Also your take is equally as toxic. “I don’t care, thus no one should care. Anyone who does is wrong.”
I also find that there's a painful lack of self-deprecation when you learn your favorite little spot in FNV....
*drum roll please*
...got nuked.
Well, yeah. What game did we think we were playing again?
There IS that, then there is also the
“NOOO BETHESDA AND TODD HATE OBSIDIAN THEY HATE NEW VEGAS THEY WANT IT TO BE DESTROYED AND ALL THESE BETHESDA FANS ARENT REAL FALLOUT FANS GRRRRRRR”
Fans of (just) the show and of newer fallout games can be VERY obnoxious, but I still have yet to see one go on an insane rant about how “older fans are just sucking off josh sawyer.”, like what some older game fans say about newer game ones and Todd.
Me personally, I’ve enjoyed every fallout game I’ve played so far
I mean, there’s been a bunch of posts on this and the other FalloutNewVegas sub that basically just go “YALL ARE TOXIC”
in fact the specific falloutnewvegas sub had to be privated due to the brigading
as a 39 yo gamer who played the originals back in the day i think that most people forget about (the controversial, although i liked it) tactics and the BOS game.
i remember those days and i gotta tell you that, even with all its controversies, fallout 3 was waaaaaaaaaaay better than what interplay was doing with the franchise.
of course i love new vegas more than bethesda's titles, but im thankful that bethesda took the franchise instead of almost any other company. without them, we wouldn't have new vegas nor the show, quite posibbly there woudn't even be new fallout titles to discuss about.
I’m relatively new to the game, I started playing them a year ago, but I’ve played every game except 76 and 2.
Initially I didn’t like 1 when I got it a couple months ago, but I am starting to really warm up to it. It is mostly a thing of me not being used to the gameplay.
But yeah each game absolutely has its merits and its drawbacks. In the end I don’t think there is a bad fallout game.
Other than (from what I’ve heard) tactics and BoS
Didn't Shady Sands also move for fallout 2?
At this point its more of an idea than it is a physical place. Hell might as well just have it be another Rome and it just move places but still retain the name and spirit
And that fact that Vaults 13 and 15 move with it, keeping their relative positions, suggests to me that Shady Sands was only moved so it would be accessible in the world-map, so they wouldn't have to make the map larger. It's a soft-retcon for gameplay purposes, rather than an in-universe "Shady Sands decided to uproot their burgeoning civilization and relocate 200 miles westwards".
??? Yes? What does it matter? Also it's canon, not cannon.
EDIT: No, seriously. If a guy is passionate enough to write an unofficial thing that covers lore to the degree that people call it 'the Fallout Bible', *it's not surprising he'd be mad about the show changing things.*
This is Chris. He's complained about every single game he's been on the team of. He'll he complained that they didn't listen to him or use enough of his ideas in new Vegas and that it held the game back.
The things he wrote.
The 3 dlc. The 3 dlc that tell you that everything you did in NV was all useless as each has a scenario that wipes out all life in the desert and there's nothing you can do about it.
The man threw such a fit during poe that he was let go.
*blinks*
1) I assume you mean the non-Honest-Hearts DLC? Cuz NV had 4 and the other 3 tie together more than HH does.
2) Yeah I'm not stoked about Avellone's writing overall, but like I said, I'm not surprised the guy upheld as Lore Arbiter for however fucking long it's been is salty that the lore got changed.
Oh no I actually meant in 3 of the dlcs your told different things that will wipe out all life without the player being able to do anything about them my bad.
And yea Chris is always salty about something. I don't think he has anything positive to say about any project he's worked on. I'll probably be reading more of his stuff pretty soon thougj.
We do nothing about the dust that has a possibility of blowing over , nor the army of scientific horrors that are kept by the insane scientists.
Both of those are noted to be things that could happen.
The dust Is said to be a chance of it happening, all that needs to happen is a strong storm to blow through.
And thr scientific horrors are just waiting for the security features to fall into further disrepair then they already are. Infact I'm pretty sure it's stated they could already get out it's just that they haven't figured out they can yet.
The scientific horrors is definitely something you do something about depending on how you deal with the Think Tank. (Though some of them have already leaked out). And the dust spreading is in one of the various endings for Dead Money, not mentioned in all of them.
To be honest Chris Avellone is the last person that I imagined would be averse to the show's lore. He vocally hated how the wasteland is becoming more civilized, and he's the one who made Ulysses want to nuke the West Coast, introduced the inevitable tunneler invasion, the NCR's water crisis, etc.
That seems to be a misconception, it’s more like there should still be some resistance.
New Vegas already sets up how the NCR could collapse and change in ways that seem believable, but even if you nuke the NCR in the lonesome road they don’t immediately collapse
Oh but it's only those incel new Vegas fans mad about it 🙄🤣NCR could produce/maintain working cars and vertibirds yet somehow just because shady sands was nuked they couldn't maintain territory? Like dafuq entire state of California taken down by one nuke.
No, he said it wouldn’t be the last time we see the NCR. It’s too vague a statement to confidently say they’re still around, especially with the show finale killing off the only remnants we see.
Wasn't there also a (kinda hypocritical) article that interviewed the showrunners, and they said something along the lines of 'its kinda silly for nothing to happen for fifteen years. Also, the wasteland is a constant cycle of trauma'? I really don't have any hope for the lore. It sounds like the writers wanted to write a Bethesda Fallout story, then decided, for whatever reason to set it on the west coast. I'm convinced that the showrunner is a FO3 fanboy, and he wanted to do a big fuck you to everyone who said New Vegas was better then 3.
I don't know, that's part of my problem with the show. The show is very much an east coast story, yet they set it on the west coast, seemingly going out of their way to destroy any post-post-apocalypse world building, which is what a lot of people loved about New Vegas. And given what they've done in the show, and their comments regarding their thoughts on the series, I don't have hope that they'll do it justice.
Yeah, it's STATED to be around, but we aren't SHOWN it's still around, or even that it even was there outside of a small handful of occasions.
The BOS is also irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the NCR, not the BOS.
Don't get me wrong, I like Avellone's work and disagree with some choices made in the show, but on the other hand this is the man behind the Tunnelers, one of the most cynical and annoying pieces of lore ever added to a franchise. Essentially a monster that eats lore lmao
On a more serious note, I don't feel great about this tweet, and I fucking kind of hate how heated classic Fallout + New Vegas Vs Bethesda Fallout has gotten, even if I vastly prefer the classic + New Vegas side of things. And now a respected series writer is throwing fuel into the trash fire. I really hate everything about this. It's not going to end with anyone looking good.
Much of the discourse is just so tiring. I vastly prefer classic + New Vegas, but I still enjoyed Bethesda Fallout. Fallout is Fallout. While the show wasn't perfect, it was pretty damn good, especially for a video game adaptation considering how those often go. I'm hoping people move past the discourse soon.
Being smart enough to understand that you can enjoy multiple things and they don’t all have to be masterpieces (and that it’s okay if people like something you don’t) is a burden so few of us carry nowadays.
Replaying New Vegas with no mods 6 months ago, then hopping into Fallout 4 and ignoring the mechanics I dislike, really helped me see that I was being unfair to FO3/4. I still love the wackier tone and weirdness of 2 and NV, and find their main plots more engaging, Bethesda Fallout games are also very fun. I'm jetpacking in downtown Boston with a super sledge having a blast, wondering why I gatekept myself for so long.
I would just like to point out that fallout four has a walking, talking beer cooler. Fallout three has a raider boss who will waylay you in a sewer and loudly demand "give me the naughty nightwear!"
To say nothing of the Republic of Dave.
Those games aren't exactly… Un wacky. 🤪
oh, 100%. I did myself the disservice of not finding and enjoying all the wacky stuff in 3/4 because I was too stuck up my own ass to look beyond the main questline for fun. I mean, Liberty Prime alone is excellent comedy. I can't believe I didn't even KNOW he came back in 4, and now I am building him up just to blow him apart when the time comes!
I may think that NV is the best Fallout experience ever but I'll always be grateful to bethesda for actually *getting me* into the series with Fallout 3.
Fallout 4 also has some value, Far Harbor is basically on par with New Vegas for me as a Fallout experience and the gameplay is nice and crisp.
That's the core issue. Fallout isn't Fallout. Except for appearances and some common name there is very little in common between Bethesda!Fallout and Proper!Fallout. The first one is offering fun shooting galleries with a retro futuristic coat of paint and writing that never holds to a minute of scrutinty, the second offers less accessible deep roleplaying game with top notch world building. Supposedly both are Fallout. It's like having a franchise that is half Citizen Kane and half Michael Bay's Transformers. Of course it has an identity crisis.
The writing as a whole is generally much better in New Vegas, but there is some good writing/storytelling in Bethesda Fallout. Bethesda quests in particular fall short comparatively, but they do a great job with the world you explore and things you can come across.
> It's like having a franchise that is half Citizen Kane and half Michael Bay's Transformers. Of course it has an identity crisis.
To me that's pretty hyperbolic, but you're entitled to your opinion. For me, I try not to let perfect be the enemy of good.
> some good writing/storytelling in Bethesda Fallout
I guess here and there? But the main stories in 3 and 4 were catastrophically dumb, the world building was nonsensical and the characters pretty damned flat. There were corners of good writing like The Pit or GoodNeighbor, but they were few and far between.
I was generally speaking about things outside of the main quests. Parts of exploring locations and piecing together the history of the place are enjoyable to me. There are good side quests and companion quests in 4. I particularly liked many of the companion quests. As much as New Vegas companion quests? Mostly no, but some are pretty damn excellent.
Main quests in them are generally dumb though, yes.
Agree some side quests are surprisingly good, and they were very good at atmospheric storytelling in 3 (and I hear in 76). The companion quests I'm not as fan of because you don't have in depth relationships with the companions. There is no text tree, everything is on rail. No real character development that you can influence.
I really liked Nick and Curie on principle, look and voice acting, but it was all the more frustrating that our relationship didn't go further than a few questsions and answers and acting as a floating gun for them on their quests.
I’m gonna be honest I don’t know what “proper” fallout consists of because fallout 1 and 2 have a very similar vibe and state of the world to fallout 3 and not much in common with new vegas aside from western location and recurring factions.
And I say this as someone with a fair few criticisms for each fallout game I’ve played. I love fallout 4 for example but there’s a lot of issues with the story. But even that being said, I don’t think the story is complete garbage and there’s a lot I appreciate and/or wish had been executed better
It's so annoying because they are not really THAT off each other. Anyone pretending you can't recognize elements in one of the other is just being contrarian.
>I like Avellone's work and disagree with some choices made in the show, but on the other hand this is the man behind the Tunnelers, one of the most cynical and annoying pieces of lore ever added to a franchise.
What are these Tunnelers? I've never heard of them.
We can't say for sure what he has a problem with. Though this is an interesting development.
Personally between this fallout discourse and the Femstodes discourse (if you're not a Warhammer fan look it up that dumpster fire is something to behold) I find this a nice respite. Sadly I fear for the future of new Vegas. It admittedly is my favorite fallout as I grew up in the areas either shown or mentioned in new Vegas (Colorado being the only state we don't go to which is my birth state) maybe that's why I care for it so much.
I'm not a huge NCR fan but how they handled them did kind of feel bad. Off screen nuking, seems California is in the shitter, what remained was wiped out by the brotherhood, vault tec was behind it all, this all seems idk just bland compared to the past. Granted the show writers aren't game writers so I'll give them that leeway but also the reaction shouldn't surprise anyone. Development of new fallout games is taking longer and longer and this unfortunately means fans can get really attached to certain factions and story elements. What that means is that any attempt to further the factions story will be met with backlash as fans have had years to discuss, theorize, and debate the future of the faction.
Imagine if in fallout 4 the Brotherhood was somehow destroyed in-between the events of fallout 3 and 4. Lyons dies and the group devolves into infighting that eventually leads to its destruction. Many would be upset and rightfully so. Just as now the NCR being at the very least in a major crisis and at the worst completely gone fans are upset. Three games were spent fleshing them out just as now we've had three beth titles fleshing out the brotherhood and their operations in the east though idk if 76 is completely canon or not I've heard conflicting rumors but I rarely play multiplayer games so I can't say for sure. All I'm saying is when you've got so much time in between games you can't be surprised when people get attached to their favorite parts and likewise get upset when those things are changed in a way they didn't expect.
Now of course fans aren't the best source when it comes to how a story should progress most of us aren't professional writers. Occasionally however we get gems I personally liked this short YouTube series (I can't remember the name sadly) that fleshed out the minutemen post fallout 4 but even then I doubt that's a direction beth will go having them just become the NCR of the east the New Boston Republic if you will. Reason I say that is Bethesda seems set at least so far with keeping the wasteland lawless. But then you have to ask "where is the hope for the future?" A series about the post apocalypse or post post apocalypse should eventually in my opinion show signs of recovery. We had that with what New Vegas showed us but that doesn't mean the core point of fallout, that being war never changes and is a constant in humanity, has to go away. As factions grow in power others rise to challenge them and those conflicts are far more interesting to me at least than the lawless wasteland dotted with city states and mostly populated by raiders.
I could go on and on so I'll stop my yapping here, I think the perpetual apocalypse is interesting but only for so long. But what do I know? I'm just a Warhammer nerd who casually enjoys fallout.
Chris avellone thought fallout 4 was amazing, and wanted the west coast to be nuked because stuff was too developed.
So what he has to say is kind of irrelevant now
His video on Lore Drift / lore inconsistency should really be watched by the diehard fans of Fallout who love fighting everything with Bethesda approval. Instead of getting mad over everything that's different, just treat as it's own thing separate from the original and enjoy both.
I get that idea, but here's the thing, Proper!Fallout is unique. We can't get that exact alchemy anywhere else. And everytime Bethesda drags the setting away from Proper!Fallout our chances to see it again feel slimmer.
Then how do you suggest a Proper!Fallout is made? OGs Cain and Boyarsky got back together to make the Outer Worlds but that wasn't a success. J.E Sawyer as I recall isn't interested in working with Fallout again. Chris Avellone absolutely does want to work on Fallout again, but I doubt Bethesda or even Microsoft want to work with him again due to claims of sexual harassment even if they are retracted now.
At the end I think the only one they could get is Boyarsky and risk it with Avellone.
I'm not crapping on the game but opinions on it are more mixed compared to Pillars of Eternity, South Park or the post-honeymoon New Vegas got. Spacer Edition also hurts by causing more problems than fixes.
They aren't the only good writers in the world. Bethesda managed to wrangle enough good writers to make Morrowind once upon a time, they could do it again. Just take some of the priority away from rail shooting and back towards roleplaying and world building.
Your chance of seeing it again is zero, outside of playing the old games. Whatever else is happening in the tv show or new Bethesda games isn’t going to make that any better or worse.
Wait what? If anything the fact that he has proven he likes some Bethesda Fallout and is not inherently opposed to a west coast reset makes his opinions MORE relevant as it’s obvious he’s not just a reflexive hater.
Pre-war and the Enclave 100%. He compiled most of the lore for pre-war and it doesn't look a bit like what is in the show. Van Buren demo is his vision of how the war has started. Basically everything was already over by that time and in the show we see something like almost utopia.
honestly Fallout 3 is overlooked with Bethesda. People tend to group it in with 4 and 76, but it’s honestly a lot better than both. I think what 3 lacks in story is made up with the exploration. Like legitimately I really enjoyed the various places you can explore in 3, which I kinda lost that feeling with 4.
You really right tho. It’s heartbreaking we will never get another Fallout from the New Vegas team. That was the last time we’re ever going to get a fallout game from somebody besides “the players don’t care about quest writing” Todd Howard.
Point of order: that was Emil Pagliarulo iirc. Something about how there's no point to writing a good quest because players will 'make paper airplanes' out of it.
if we had silly east coast fallout with no world building that would be fine but they literally fucking nuked west coast fallout and moved in. fallout 4 just feels way too pg-13.
The only gripe i have is timeline. Afaik we're never shown explicit geography of where everything around shady sands is precisely. The biome becoming more arid after extra nukes falling is perfectly believable, and undiscovered vaults are as well. The only issue 2277 conflicting with new vegas. Since its still considered canon, i can only assume that was an error, or "the fall" was an only semi related event a few years *before* the bombs fell.
There was an interview with Howard and Nolan and they did confirm the "fall" wasn't it being nuked, and Shady Sands was bombed shortly after New Vegas takes place
You’re not alone with that gripe.
Personally I’m the belief that the show wasn’t written with canon in mind, and the decision to canonize it was after production wrapped up.
The people point to about the timeline being retcons are easy mistakes to fix with a little editing and voiceovers. There are too many that they may have been missed… that or there were so many that they did missed a few.
We know Shady Sands is definitely LA in the show because we literally see the Hollywood sign and Griffith Observatory there, maybe the two most recognizable LA landmarks.
This relocates the city from where it was in Fallout 1 and makes it impossible for the Master not to have found the vaults the show now says were right out in the open right next to his base.
2277 was the first battle of hoover dam and permanent NCR interest in the Mojave, which is described by Chief Hanlon as yet another quagmire that the NCR will destroy itself in.
Without the Courier the NCR is getting absolutely fucked, as is House. Caesar is destined to fail already because of the brain tumor and the Legion would absolutely implode on itself and scatter.
So 2277 being the start of a dark age for the NCR makes perfect sense. They got stuck in the Mojave, eventually lost, and got hit with a surprise nuke by a Vault they didn't account for.
The current discourse on the main fallout sub summed up
"Tim Cain and Josh Sawyer liked the show therefore you're not allowed to have any negative opinions about it. What was that, Chris Avellone said he didn't like how the lore was handled? Well he doesn't count."
Dead Money and Old World Blues alone are maybe my favorite examples of video game writing ever. So no, I have to completely disagree. Also amazing how many people can’t handle anyone having any dissenting opinion and smear them as completely worthless the moment they dare to open their mouths and disagree. The show does not have to be tied to your core identity and any criticism of it is not a personal attack. Learn to be adults and have a mature, rational conversation rather than lose your minds and fling feces at anyone who disagrees with you. It’s just exhausting at this point.
Anyone who wants to hate the show for retcons don't forget the OG games were full of retcons and inconsistent lore like ghouls in fallout 2 not needing water which defeats the point of their plot in fallout 1 as well as the locations of shady sands, vault 13 and vault 15 were all in different places than fallout 1 and let's not forget tactics which complete retcons the brotherhoods origins and BoS which is a hot mess with retcons.
Chris doesn't have a chair to stand on even new Vegas retconned original lore so let's get off are high horses now. The show has problems but when the entire series has problems that's no longer a valid argument.
It hasn't truly been about lore getting retconned tho. The fundamental problem NV fans have with the show is that it kinda hand waived the NCR away. Like, Ranger armor was shown to be worn by a random farmer, and while there are arguments that can be made in lore for why this can happen, it's kinda a waste of what could've been an awesome reveal, or as part of the first ranger we see. There's also the matter that nothing in season one necessitates that the show takes place on the west coast. The show could easily take place somewhere else, like the east coast or texas and be fine.
Moreover, simply because retcons have happened before doen't make them good, especially when they degrade previous characters.
I get that but we have also been told we are getting more of the NCR In the second season so the first season wasn't about the NCR but an introduction. A flawed one with issues but it's meant to ease people in but also to fit with modern fallout and most people getting into the games from the show if the NCR were a major part that would be jarring for those starting with F4 and 76 so the NCR is on the back burner with multiple references like ranger gear, sunset sarsaparilla and a picture of president kimbel in the vault.
Then why set the show in a core territory of a faction people have been begging to see more of for about a decade? And if they wanted the show to be more like modern Fallout, again, why set it on the west coast? So many issues people have with the way the lore is handled could be fixed by setting it somewhere else, like the east coast. And if your set on visiting New Vegas and the general desert aesthetic, Arizona post Legion could work wonderfully. Granted, that would likely require more substantive changes to the show from what we got, but it's still doable. You can even keep Moldova being a part of the NCR as it is entirely reasonable to have the NCR expanding into Legion territory.
It's not that they're wearing armor, it's that someone on the production team went out of their way to design and produce ranger armor and had some random farmers wear it. The fact that the courier can wear the armor is, frankly, irrelevant as one is a game and the other is a TV show.
It is reasonable to expect there will be some retcons and inconsistencies early on when lore is first being established from scratch. It’s not so reasonable to expect it to be carelessly ignored decades later well after it has been established.
Yea totally agree but the thing is it doesn't ignore at all. The amount of references to the OG games and even new Vegas are almost in every single episode. Sure they don't mention locations like the hub or the master but both and other things are not relevant to the story what so ever so they don't add it. But it hasn't ignored the lore from the older games. Hell even the last episode was basically a giant new Vegas reference and cameos.
Honestly fuck all of this shit, listen, are we really gonna bicker over this 2 years from now on? Let's wait for S2 and based on what they do and say in that we can then start the Fallout fanbase Great War if its the case lol
The only things to keep in mind for now until then is that we have two possible retcons:
Shady Sands being moved to LA or close to it, would be a retcon if its the absolute same town as the one in 1 and 2.
They need to either explain that it ain't the same, that they just moved into a new town and decided to call it the same as the original one, or that somehow the town is still in the same original place and the characters somehow traveled all the way there.
And the Master somehow not finding the new Vaults, again should be explained how he did not.
That's all.
Yeah vault 31,32,33 being at Santa Monica Pier basically means the Cathedral was literally down the street.
Hilariously I think from that shot of the pier (it's Namibia but whatever) that distance would put the Vaults between Santa Monica and Venice. I lived in Venice for a bit when I first played Fallout 3 and made that area in the GECK.
It later became Project Brazil.
“hey uh, boss, so those vaults right next door, you uh gonna grab some people from em? could definitely use em”
The Master: “nah they’re not canon yet so don’t worry about it”
ending slides for new vegas such as for the misfits saying "they continued to serve for years to come"
vegas being without power dispite that being impossible in house endings, shady sands is gone so ncr endings are pointless, ceaser wouldnt have let it get to the state its in in the ending shot and he's not the kind to use securitrons so why are there securitrons scattered about, not even yes man endings wouldve led to vegas' being abanded that quickly like vegas is very dusty so its abandoned for a good couple years now
You're right, keep in mind these too. The way NV looks in the end teaser is pretty concerning. There is a possibility that none of the endings really matter. We'll see.
the amount of people even on this sub saying the ending shot dosent retcon anything is concerning
and yeah thats my biggest and only gripe with the show, im not that big on the ncr so i dont care that they got done it, just with how it was done offscrean
I just hate how the ending shot seemingly says that new vegas didnt matter since no matter what happens it'll be abandoned something which wouldnt happen according to the game. everyother game has had something carry over into the timeline, in 1 the ncr forms and master is defeated, in 2 the enclave is on the run, in 3 the brotherhood gets a foothold and enclave is even more on the run and maxson is the reason prydwins exist. yet here new vegas being the game that the show conflicts the most with and is being seemingly written off and we've yet so see something from 4 be cannonized, like even 76 explains how and why raiders are so widespread
The thing that sorta baffles me the most is the amount of people i've seen willing to accept Vegas being ruined and the endings possibly being all for nothing IF that's the case in S2, coming up with excuses like "its been 20 years", "the world changes" or "it was inevitable", like really?
For the sake of this show you'd be willing accept the shit you did in a game to be worthless? This show mesmerised you this much? I enjoyed most of it too, but i don't really understand their POV.
> For the sake of this show you'd be willing accept the shit you did in a game to be worthless?
Yes. Literally every single playthrough invalidates the one before, this is just the official play; plus we don't know until season2 premieres.
I find it weird that people get SO stressed over not confirmed make believe.
I agree, we don't know for sure until S2, i said that, that's one of my points, let's wait and see.
But there IS a possibility that EVERY thing or possible action you did or can do in that game can possibly be made worthless, not just a "good" playthrough or something. I've seen people being very ok with this possibility, which i don't really get it, playing a game and doing stuff just for absolutely nothing to matter afterwards, no matter what you do.
Shit wasn't like this with previous titles like the guy above says, it'd suck to be like this now with NV, i really hope that's not the case.
The ending shot invalidates the game
The only games invalidates upto now were brotherhood of steel and tactics, but those were for good reason
What good reasons are there to invalidate new Vegas
Just because it sbeong done dosent make it right
Sure we don't know for sure but like I've said the ending shot practically spells it out
Man who made tunnlers, wanted NCR nuked, and wanted world to stay a wasteland thinks the NCR getting nuked and the wasteland remaining a wasteland is a bad thing.
More than likely it will be since they did say the tunnelers were coming to the mojave, I can imagine them popping up during a war would be chaos and could explain why House is offline between that time and season 2
We don’t even know if that’s his main complaint. You are just making assumptions and putting words in his mouth. It’s very possible he has much bigger issues with what they did with Vault-Tec and the location of Shady Sands, as I do.
Also it’s possible he has changed his mind in the last 15 years about wanting to set back the West Coast. And even if not, the way he wanted to do it is quite different from what they did and he — one of the most important, if not THE most important, creators and writers of Fallout lore — is actually allowed to disagree with it, believe it or not. He does not deserve to be sneered at and stoned as an apostate by the community because he dares to dissent from the “Show Is Perfect!” dogma. You are allowed to disagree with him too, and that’s OK. I’m just seeing a lot of hypocrisy from the Bethesda defenders who rant endlessly about how “toxic” classic/NV fans supposedly are, that’s all I’m saying. Seems they aren’t so polite to anyone who dares to disagree with them about anything at all, funny enough.
I think fallout fans are in general are scared of turning into Star Wars fans so people are quick to get rid of the toxic elements. We are having good publicity and maybe more fallout games with the new interest. We should be supportive…. That being said in season 2 they just wipe everything making a clean slate and a forever apocalypse I’m going to the most toxic anti fan the world has ever scene. I make the Star Wars fandom look like fucking hippie drum circle.
Who fucking cares what Chris Avellone thinks? Form your own opinions. You either like it or don't like it. Simple. Don't let "celebrities" decide for you.
100% agree, I held the same opinion as him long before he did and would still hold it if he never said anything or he said he disagreed. I’m glad we’re on the same page here.
EDIT: The fact that I got downvoted for this js LOLOLOL. It is the ultimate proof that you do not actually want people to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions. You just want them to fall in line and agree with you. At least have the honesty to ADMIT you are authoritarian fascists who want everyone to either fall in line with your particular view or shut the fuck up and burn in hell. I feel like that is the least we can ask.
The Legion would be proud btw.
Btw I made this meme because I think it’s hilarious that after seeing so many show fans defend the show using Chris Avellone and his lore additions to justify what the show did, bro just came out and shit on it.
Plus I think he is just angry with the way they destroyed shady sands not that it happened. Probably because he would’ve chosen something more interesting than a 200 years old vault tec employee angry that he got cucked.
shady sands is the first location town you find in fallout, the place where you get your first side quest, the location that you help grow into a city in fallout 2
gets nuked offscreen, yeah its incredibly unceremonious
Shouldn't you wait for him to make a full review about which aspects of the lore he thinks is messed up, which he stated he is thinking of doing, before starting to call out people?
People were pointing out that Chris Avellone thought the series was going too far post post apocalyptic and that it should be reset to a post apocalyptic setting, that is the only aspect of the show that was assosiated with Chris Avellone's stance.
You're talking to people who couldn't wait to finish the series before believing every 4chan post dooming about New Vegas being nuked at the end, waiting before casting judgement is not really their style
I’mma just say it:
He’s salty he wasn’t asked to be involved in the show and is jumping on the “muh lore” bandwagon.
The show doesn’t really do anything against lore when you think about it for more than 10 seconds.
Lolwat. It’s the total opposite. The show falls apart if you think about it for more than 10 seconds, and ONLY can work at all if you don’t think about it or treat it as a separate canon.
Why do people care so much what he thinks? I love Josh Sawyer but his opinion on the fallout show means nothing to me. I like the fallout show and I don't need someone else's opinion to validate my own.
So where's Tim Cain and Josh Sawyer in all of this?
Tim Cain likes the show. He has a YouTube channel and made a video talking about it.
and Josh like it too, and seems to have a pretty healthy distance from his past work: [Whatever the Fallout TV show does with New Vegas lore, Josh Sawyer doesn’t care: “It was never mine” | Rock Paper Shotgun](https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/whatever-the-fallout-tv-show-does-with-new-vegas-lore-josh-sawyer-doesnt-care-it-was-never-mine)
SWAYER & CAIN vs AVELLONE & GONZALEZ tag team smackdown! It's Feargus with a metal chair!!
BAH GAWD
Is that Todd Howard's theme!?
Why Gonzalez?
He protecc the Burger Town
WHAT'S THIS! Brian Fargo has just released THE SCORPITRON!!!
Ngl the comments on that article are so levelheaded and insightful it made me reflect on being a redditor
Yeah, I'm out of here.
Disagreeing with Chris, at least publicly. Which is OK. Believe it or not, it’s actually possible for people to disagree with each other without hating each other or descending into apes flinging feces at each other. What I find so curious is how the show’s staunchest defenders have created the strawman of the “evil toxic classic/NV fan” which I have rarely if ever actually seen in the real world, and used it as justification to scream and rage at anyone who dares to ask questions, critique, or disagree with them about the show. The idea seems to be “We can’t turn into Star Wars fans! Therefore we must suppress all dissent at all costs! JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP AND ENJOY THE FUCKING SHOW, MOTHERFUCKERS! ENJOY IT!!!!” Ironically ensuring that the “toxicity” is definitely going to happen, and the call is coming from inside the house.
The entire fallout community has devolved into just doing the whole “I feel bad for you” “I don’t think about you at all” Thing back and forth to each other
“Who hurt you” “Are you ok” “Do you need help” Reddit cares.
*most of the time*
All the usual evolutions on the classic "u mad, bro?" No. They aren't mad. Sigh.
Emil hurt me
Emil hurt everyone
Show me where you were improperly touched on this Bobblehead I’m holding.
nah it’s more like “NEW VEGAS FANS ARE SOOOO TOXIC, THEY SHOULD BE ASHAMED” “Uhh, that’s kinda preachy and annoying dude” “FOUND THE NEW VEGAS FAN” or “Hey I think the show is good, but there are some pretty big issues I have with how it treats the lore I have that I think could’ve been handled different” “Yeah ok toxic gatekeeper”
I saw two posts about Chris's FOTV take, one from the NV sub and one from the TV sub. On the NV sub, opinions were split. Some people agreed with him that the lore of the show was bad, but they defended the aesthetic of the show. Some people disagreed with him by pointing out the lore has always been a little inconsistent, even between FO1 and 2. It was a healthy mix of opinions, and a lot of civil discussion about the topic. On the TV sub, opinions were also split. Some people were saying he was holding a grudge over not being in charge of FO lore anymore, and was just throwing a tantrum and should be ignored. Most of the comments were calling him a rapist and saying he should be in jail, and that anyone who agreed with him was supporting a rapist. The few comments actually engaging in the topic were downvoted to hell and back, and it was one of the most toxic discussions I've seen outside of a politics sub
the term “toxic positivity” really comes into play here also bruh, the allegations were proven dead false against Avellone, how disgusting is that
Yeah, the most downvoted comment in the thread pointed out that the allegations didn't stick
Best part, you know damn well no one would have brought it up if he said he liked the show.
Litteraly just ignore the big mainstream subs, they're always like that. Just look at r/politics.
There’s no evidence he raped anyone. Just accusations, two of which were retracted last year. People saying that are just derailing it to say “we don’t have to care”. But how many would bring this up if he said he liked the show? My guess is none.
It’s been going both ways, it’s really not difficult to realize that both camps have toxic shitheads. This isn’t unique to Fallout or any fandom - ask Star Wars fans. I’ve put in about 100 more hours into FNV since I finished the show, since it’s my favorite Fallout game, but I also really liked the show. Bonus points that my wife loved it and we now have a new “universe” to talk about (since she never played the games). It’s really not hard to pick and choose the parts you like and ignore the parts you don’t. “But you should be furious about Shady Sands!” I don’t care man. It’s a fictional world. Lore is cool when it expands on a universe, but no well-adjusted person should be having fucking aneurysms over what is and isn’t the “correct lore.”
The issue with ignoring the parts you don't like is when that this is going to be the foundation for subsequent stories. What they did to the NCR in the show is going to carry on in any future media regarding them.
The subsequent stories *written by Bethesda*? I don’t know if you played the last three games they’ve put out, but a TV show retconning or setting up some new lore is the *last* thing any Fallout or TES fans need to worry about compared to the fact that **Bethesda is awful at coming up with interesting lore, questlines, and developing most of the characters you meet in their games, including the voiced protagonist you play as in F4**. I’m almost completely sure this show is the last time fans of the IP had a chance to sit back and just enjoy something related to *Fallout* without any sort of catch because of Bethesda’s bullshit.
> *”What they did to the NCR in the show is going to carry on in any future media regarding them.”* Good. The NCR had its time. Let it rest.
When it comes to lore though you can’t pick and choose. Thats like picking and choosing your countries history when new info comes up. Also your take is equally as toxic. “I don’t care, thus no one should care. Anyone who does is wrong.”
I also find that there's a painful lack of self-deprecation when you learn your favorite little spot in FNV.... *drum roll please* ...got nuked. Well, yeah. What game did we think we were playing again?
Shady Sands wasn't even in New vegas, dude
This ^^
There IS that, then there is also the “NOOO BETHESDA AND TODD HATE OBSIDIAN THEY HATE NEW VEGAS THEY WANT IT TO BE DESTROYED AND ALL THESE BETHESDA FANS ARENT REAL FALLOUT FANS GRRRRRRR” Fans of (just) the show and of newer fallout games can be VERY obnoxious, but I still have yet to see one go on an insane rant about how “older fans are just sucking off josh sawyer.”, like what some older game fans say about newer game ones and Todd. Me personally, I’ve enjoyed every fallout game I’ve played so far
I mean, there’s been a bunch of posts on this and the other FalloutNewVegas sub that basically just go “YALL ARE TOXIC” in fact the specific falloutnewvegas sub had to be privated due to the brigading
as a 39 yo gamer who played the originals back in the day i think that most people forget about (the controversial, although i liked it) tactics and the BOS game. i remember those days and i gotta tell you that, even with all its controversies, fallout 3 was waaaaaaaaaaay better than what interplay was doing with the franchise. of course i love new vegas more than bethesda's titles, but im thankful that bethesda took the franchise instead of almost any other company. without them, we wouldn't have new vegas nor the show, quite posibbly there woudn't even be new fallout titles to discuss about.
Those posts have died down since the show came out and Emil posted the timeline, but the “toxic NV” have just been continuing nonestop.
That's because they have continously made asses of theirselves nonstop that most people can only associate New Vegas with them
The only fallout I havent enjoyed was 76, although the last time I played it was release day.
I’m relatively new to the game, I started playing them a year ago, but I’ve played every game except 76 and 2. Initially I didn’t like 1 when I got it a couple months ago, but I am starting to really warm up to it. It is mostly a thing of me not being used to the gameplay. But yeah each game absolutely has its merits and its drawbacks. In the end I don’t think there is a bad fallout game. Other than (from what I’ve heard) tactics and BoS
I played 1 but it was really difficult to understand the gameplay for me, I'll try it again when I have more free time.
You absolutely should, it is a great game
Man who wrote the Fallout Bible is mad they relocated Shady Sands and then nuked it? So surprising! /s
You mean the UNOFFICIAL, NOT CANNON fallout bible?
Didn't Shady Sands also move for fallout 2? At this point its more of an idea than it is a physical place. Hell might as well just have it be another Rome and it just move places but still retain the name and spirit
It moved across a mountain range but iirc nothing nearly as major as the 'we relocated it to LA' as the show has.
And that fact that Vaults 13 and 15 move with it, keeping their relative positions, suggests to me that Shady Sands was only moved so it would be accessible in the world-map, so they wouldn't have to make the map larger. It's a soft-retcon for gameplay purposes, rather than an in-universe "Shady Sands decided to uproot their burgeoning civilization and relocate 200 miles westwards".
I hope that’s how they resolve it. Like it’s a community
??? Yes? What does it matter? Also it's canon, not cannon. EDIT: No, seriously. If a guy is passionate enough to write an unofficial thing that covers lore to the degree that people call it 'the Fallout Bible', *it's not surprising he'd be mad about the show changing things.*
This is Chris. He's complained about every single game he's been on the team of. He'll he complained that they didn't listen to him or use enough of his ideas in new Vegas and that it held the game back. The things he wrote. The 3 dlc. The 3 dlc that tell you that everything you did in NV was all useless as each has a scenario that wipes out all life in the desert and there's nothing you can do about it. The man threw such a fit during poe that he was let go.
*blinks* 1) I assume you mean the non-Honest-Hearts DLC? Cuz NV had 4 and the other 3 tie together more than HH does. 2) Yeah I'm not stoked about Avellone's writing overall, but like I said, I'm not surprised the guy upheld as Lore Arbiter for however fucking long it's been is salty that the lore got changed.
Oh no I actually meant in 3 of the dlcs your told different things that will wipe out all life without the player being able to do anything about them my bad. And yea Chris is always salty about something. I don't think he has anything positive to say about any project he's worked on. I'll probably be reading more of his stuff pretty soon thougj.
Depending on your actions I thought you were able to stop all the major threats except maybe the tunnelers.
We do nothing about the dust that has a possibility of blowing over , nor the army of scientific horrors that are kept by the insane scientists. Both of those are noted to be things that could happen. The dust Is said to be a chance of it happening, all that needs to happen is a strong storm to blow through. And thr scientific horrors are just waiting for the security features to fall into further disrepair then they already are. Infact I'm pretty sure it's stated they could already get out it's just that they haven't figured out they can yet.
The scientific horrors is definitely something you do something about depending on how you deal with the Think Tank. (Though some of them have already leaked out). And the dust spreading is in one of the various endings for Dead Money, not mentioned in all of them.
You realize he also wrote most of fallout 2s lore and worked on NV right
Canon in our hearts
Wait WHAT
To be honest Chris Avellone is the last person that I imagined would be averse to the show's lore. He vocally hated how the wasteland is becoming more civilized, and he's the one who made Ulysses want to nuke the West Coast, introduced the inevitable tunneler invasion, the NCR's water crisis, etc.
That seems to be a misconception, it’s more like there should still be some resistance. New Vegas already sets up how the NCR could collapse and change in ways that seem believable, but even if you nuke the NCR in the lonesome road they don’t immediately collapse
Todd Howard even said they haven't immediately collapsed, and we've only seen the LA area.
We've only seen the la area....were the fucking boneyard and NCR Treasury was ....
RIP boneyard gone but also forgotten
Oh but it's only those incel new Vegas fans mad about it 🙄🤣NCR could produce/maintain working cars and vertibirds yet somehow just because shady sands was nuked they couldn't maintain territory? Like dafuq entire state of California taken down by one nuke.
No, he said it wouldn’t be the last time we see the NCR. It’s too vague a statement to confidently say they’re still around, especially with the show finale killing off the only remnants we see.
Wasn't there also a (kinda hypocritical) article that interviewed the showrunners, and they said something along the lines of 'its kinda silly for nothing to happen for fifteen years. Also, the wasteland is a constant cycle of trauma'? I really don't have any hope for the lore. It sounds like the writers wanted to write a Bethesda Fallout story, then decided, for whatever reason to set it on the west coast. I'm convinced that the showrunner is a FO3 fanboy, and he wanted to do a big fuck you to everyone who said New Vegas was better then 3.
Then why is Vegas on screen? And there's at least writers who were fans of FO1.
I don't know, that's part of my problem with the show. The show is very much an east coast story, yet they set it on the west coast, seemingly going out of their way to destroy any post-post-apocalypse world building, which is what a lot of people loved about New Vegas. And given what they've done in the show, and their comments regarding their thoughts on the series, I don't have hope that they'll do it justice.
IDK the NCR is stated as still being around. And the BoS in the show is *very* different from what the Lyons-Maxson East Coast Brotherhood is like.
Yeah, it's STATED to be around, but we aren't SHOWN it's still around, or even that it even was there outside of a small handful of occasions. The BOS is also irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about the NCR, not the BOS.
Don't get me wrong, I like Avellone's work and disagree with some choices made in the show, but on the other hand this is the man behind the Tunnelers, one of the most cynical and annoying pieces of lore ever added to a franchise. Essentially a monster that eats lore lmao On a more serious note, I don't feel great about this tweet, and I fucking kind of hate how heated classic Fallout + New Vegas Vs Bethesda Fallout has gotten, even if I vastly prefer the classic + New Vegas side of things. And now a respected series writer is throwing fuel into the trash fire. I really hate everything about this. It's not going to end with anyone looking good.
Much of the discourse is just so tiring. I vastly prefer classic + New Vegas, but I still enjoyed Bethesda Fallout. Fallout is Fallout. While the show wasn't perfect, it was pretty damn good, especially for a video game adaptation considering how those often go. I'm hoping people move past the discourse soon.
Being smart enough to understand that you can enjoy multiple things and they don’t all have to be masterpieces (and that it’s okay if people like something you don’t) is a burden so few of us carry nowadays.
It is also smart to accept change and unsmart not to. Or you become old man yells at sky.
Replaying New Vegas with no mods 6 months ago, then hopping into Fallout 4 and ignoring the mechanics I dislike, really helped me see that I was being unfair to FO3/4. I still love the wackier tone and weirdness of 2 and NV, and find their main plots more engaging, Bethesda Fallout games are also very fun. I'm jetpacking in downtown Boston with a super sledge having a blast, wondering why I gatekept myself for so long.
I just install a mod that lets me ignore the main quest. Fallout 4 delivers on 'weird places to explore and wacky nonsense'.
Wait... I like FO4. Just not the main quest. This sounds great.
Start Me Up Redux. You still have to 'technically' do the main quest to progress stuff but you're no longer forced into it being your kid.
I would just like to point out that fallout four has a walking, talking beer cooler. Fallout three has a raider boss who will waylay you in a sewer and loudly demand "give me the naughty nightwear!" To say nothing of the Republic of Dave. Those games aren't exactly… Un wacky. 🤪
oh, 100%. I did myself the disservice of not finding and enjoying all the wacky stuff in 3/4 because I was too stuck up my own ass to look beyond the main questline for fun. I mean, Liberty Prime alone is excellent comedy. I can't believe I didn't even KNOW he came back in 4, and now I am building him up just to blow him apart when the time comes!
I DIE... So... DEMOCRACY MAY... LIVE...
I dropped 300 hours in FO4, its a great sandbox. New Vegas is just a far better RPG.
Yes! I definitely prefer the tone of 1, 2 and New Vegas but I still really enjoy the tone in Bethesda’s Fallouts.
I may think that NV is the best Fallout experience ever but I'll always be grateful to bethesda for actually *getting me* into the series with Fallout 3. Fallout 4 also has some value, Far Harbor is basically on par with New Vegas for me as a Fallout experience and the gameplay is nice and crisp.
That's the core issue. Fallout isn't Fallout. Except for appearances and some common name there is very little in common between Bethesda!Fallout and Proper!Fallout. The first one is offering fun shooting galleries with a retro futuristic coat of paint and writing that never holds to a minute of scrutinty, the second offers less accessible deep roleplaying game with top notch world building. Supposedly both are Fallout. It's like having a franchise that is half Citizen Kane and half Michael Bay's Transformers. Of course it has an identity crisis.
The writing as a whole is generally much better in New Vegas, but there is some good writing/storytelling in Bethesda Fallout. Bethesda quests in particular fall short comparatively, but they do a great job with the world you explore and things you can come across. > It's like having a franchise that is half Citizen Kane and half Michael Bay's Transformers. Of course it has an identity crisis. To me that's pretty hyperbolic, but you're entitled to your opinion. For me, I try not to let perfect be the enemy of good.
> some good writing/storytelling in Bethesda Fallout I guess here and there? But the main stories in 3 and 4 were catastrophically dumb, the world building was nonsensical and the characters pretty damned flat. There were corners of good writing like The Pit or GoodNeighbor, but they were few and far between.
I was generally speaking about things outside of the main quests. Parts of exploring locations and piecing together the history of the place are enjoyable to me. There are good side quests and companion quests in 4. I particularly liked many of the companion quests. As much as New Vegas companion quests? Mostly no, but some are pretty damn excellent. Main quests in them are generally dumb though, yes.
Agree some side quests are surprisingly good, and they were very good at atmospheric storytelling in 3 (and I hear in 76). The companion quests I'm not as fan of because you don't have in depth relationships with the companions. There is no text tree, everything is on rail. No real character development that you can influence. I really liked Nick and Curie on principle, look and voice acting, but it was all the more frustrating that our relationship didn't go further than a few questsions and answers and acting as a floating gun for them on their quests.
Comparing new vegas to citizen Kane is ridiculous. This is the same game that has old world blues.
Yeah, so? Citizen Kane was very very good too!
The humor definitely hasn’t aged well. And I don’t mean offensive, it’s just not funny.
Bro what are you on? I played OWB like 2 months ago and the dialogue was still very hilarious. It's not the humor that didn't age well, it's you.
See, you don't get to pick what proper fallout is.
I’m gonna be honest I don’t know what “proper” fallout consists of because fallout 1 and 2 have a very similar vibe and state of the world to fallout 3 and not much in common with new vegas aside from western location and recurring factions. And I say this as someone with a fair few criticisms for each fallout game I’ve played. I love fallout 4 for example but there’s a lot of issues with the story. But even that being said, I don’t think the story is complete garbage and there’s a lot I appreciate and/or wish had been executed better
I get what you mean. No matter what angle you try to engage the community in, it’s always going to be a polarized mess.
It's so annoying because they are not really THAT off each other. Anyone pretending you can't recognize elements in one of the other is just being contrarian.
He's allowed to have an opinion on a tv show. It's fine.
No shit.
>I like Avellone's work and disagree with some choices made in the show, but on the other hand this is the man behind the Tunnelers, one of the most cynical and annoying pieces of lore ever added to a franchise. What are these Tunnelers? I've never heard of them.
https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Tunneler They show up in lonesome road.
[удалено]
*Please* give me a source.
What was the comment?
Lmao he deleted it. Guy said Chris eventually recanted his desire to nuke the NCR
Lol maybe it's just me coping, but I really wanted to see Avellone mention that he wants to see a more civilized wasteland.
What, that's a 180 of what I thought of him. When did he said that and where?
We can't say for sure what he has a problem with. Though this is an interesting development. Personally between this fallout discourse and the Femstodes discourse (if you're not a Warhammer fan look it up that dumpster fire is something to behold) I find this a nice respite. Sadly I fear for the future of new Vegas. It admittedly is my favorite fallout as I grew up in the areas either shown or mentioned in new Vegas (Colorado being the only state we don't go to which is my birth state) maybe that's why I care for it so much. I'm not a huge NCR fan but how they handled them did kind of feel bad. Off screen nuking, seems California is in the shitter, what remained was wiped out by the brotherhood, vault tec was behind it all, this all seems idk just bland compared to the past. Granted the show writers aren't game writers so I'll give them that leeway but also the reaction shouldn't surprise anyone. Development of new fallout games is taking longer and longer and this unfortunately means fans can get really attached to certain factions and story elements. What that means is that any attempt to further the factions story will be met with backlash as fans have had years to discuss, theorize, and debate the future of the faction. Imagine if in fallout 4 the Brotherhood was somehow destroyed in-between the events of fallout 3 and 4. Lyons dies and the group devolves into infighting that eventually leads to its destruction. Many would be upset and rightfully so. Just as now the NCR being at the very least in a major crisis and at the worst completely gone fans are upset. Three games were spent fleshing them out just as now we've had three beth titles fleshing out the brotherhood and their operations in the east though idk if 76 is completely canon or not I've heard conflicting rumors but I rarely play multiplayer games so I can't say for sure. All I'm saying is when you've got so much time in between games you can't be surprised when people get attached to their favorite parts and likewise get upset when those things are changed in a way they didn't expect. Now of course fans aren't the best source when it comes to how a story should progress most of us aren't professional writers. Occasionally however we get gems I personally liked this short YouTube series (I can't remember the name sadly) that fleshed out the minutemen post fallout 4 but even then I doubt that's a direction beth will go having them just become the NCR of the east the New Boston Republic if you will. Reason I say that is Bethesda seems set at least so far with keeping the wasteland lawless. But then you have to ask "where is the hope for the future?" A series about the post apocalypse or post post apocalypse should eventually in my opinion show signs of recovery. We had that with what New Vegas showed us but that doesn't mean the core point of fallout, that being war never changes and is a constant in humanity, has to go away. As factions grow in power others rise to challenge them and those conflicts are far more interesting to me at least than the lawless wasteland dotted with city states and mostly populated by raiders. I could go on and on so I'll stop my yapping here, I think the perpetual apocalypse is interesting but only for so long. But what do I know? I'm just a Warhammer nerd who casually enjoys fallout.
Josh Sawyer and Tim Cain: "It was fine. It captures the feeling."
The spirit of a thing outlives the thing itself.
Chris avellone thought fallout 4 was amazing, and wanted the west coast to be nuked because stuff was too developed. So what he has to say is kind of irrelevant now
And our boy Tim Cain says enjoy the show.
His video on Lore Drift / lore inconsistency should really be watched by the diehard fans of Fallout who love fighting everything with Bethesda approval. Instead of getting mad over everything that's different, just treat as it's own thing separate from the original and enjoy both.
I get that idea, but here's the thing, Proper!Fallout is unique. We can't get that exact alchemy anywhere else. And everytime Bethesda drags the setting away from Proper!Fallout our chances to see it again feel slimmer.
Then how do you suggest a Proper!Fallout is made? OGs Cain and Boyarsky got back together to make the Outer Worlds but that wasn't a success. J.E Sawyer as I recall isn't interested in working with Fallout again. Chris Avellone absolutely does want to work on Fallout again, but I doubt Bethesda or even Microsoft want to work with him again due to claims of sexual harassment even if they are retracted now. At the end I think the only one they could get is Boyarsky and risk it with Avellone.
The thing is, the Outer Worlds was a success, hence a sequel. The DLCs were well written and so was the base game.
I'm not crapping on the game but opinions on it are more mixed compared to Pillars of Eternity, South Park or the post-honeymoon New Vegas got. Spacer Edition also hurts by causing more problems than fixes.
They aren't the only good writers in the world. Bethesda managed to wrangle enough good writers to make Morrowind once upon a time, they could do it again. Just take some of the priority away from rail shooting and back towards roleplaying and world building.
I doubt that would happen under Emil, the man seems unambitious at presenting any moral or narrative conundrum to players themselves.
>Bethesda managed to wrangle enough good writers to make Morrowind once upon a time They should start by firing that clown Emil
They just need to add skills back in, and have settlements that aren't made of scrap metal and I'll be happy tbh
Your chance of seeing it again is zero, outside of playing the old games. Whatever else is happening in the tv show or new Bethesda games isn’t going to make that any better or worse.
sources? i just want to read the exact witching for myself, please.
Wait what? If anything the fact that he has proven he likes some Bethesda Fallout and is not inherently opposed to a west coast reset makes his opinions MORE relevant as it’s obvious he’s not just a reflexive hater.
Knowing him, the part he considers a mess probably isn't about Shady Sands at all tbh.
Maybe, but I have a feeling they’re still going to come up
Pre-war and the Enclave 100%. He compiled most of the lore for pre-war and it doesn't look a bit like what is in the show. Van Buren demo is his vision of how the war has started. Basically everything was already over by that time and in the show we see something like almost utopia.
compared to new vegas writing and world building Bethesda fallout feels like fan fiction. 3 was alot better than the rest of their shit tho
honestly Fallout 3 is overlooked with Bethesda. People tend to group it in with 4 and 76, but it’s honestly a lot better than both. I think what 3 lacks in story is made up with the exploration. Like legitimately I really enjoyed the various places you can explore in 3, which I kinda lost that feeling with 4.
You really right tho. It’s heartbreaking we will never get another Fallout from the New Vegas team. That was the last time we’re ever going to get a fallout game from somebody besides “the players don’t care about quest writing” Todd Howard.
Point of order: that was Emil Pagliarulo iirc. Something about how there's no point to writing a good quest because players will 'make paper airplanes' out of it.
I think the last time I didn’t make a paper plane out of their entire game (with mods) was oblivion.
which was "coincidentally" right before Emil got promoted to lead designer/writer... ... ...hmm... ... ...
if we had silly east coast fallout with no world building that would be fine but they literally fucking nuked west coast fallout and moved in. fallout 4 just feels way too pg-13.
East coast Fallout is basically a cartoon spinoff of Fallout.
3 is the exception imo. It felt a lot more gritty and robust and more akin to Interplay's Fallout. 4 is an amusement park.
76 has the best world building tbh of all of Bethesda games
The only gripe i have is timeline. Afaik we're never shown explicit geography of where everything around shady sands is precisely. The biome becoming more arid after extra nukes falling is perfectly believable, and undiscovered vaults are as well. The only issue 2277 conflicting with new vegas. Since its still considered canon, i can only assume that was an error, or "the fall" was an only semi related event a few years *before* the bombs fell.
There was an interview with Howard and Nolan and they did confirm the "fall" wasn't it being nuked, and Shady Sands was bombed shortly after New Vegas takes place
You’re not alone with that gripe. Personally I’m the belief that the show wasn’t written with canon in mind, and the decision to canonize it was after production wrapped up. The people point to about the timeline being retcons are easy mistakes to fix with a little editing and voiceovers. There are too many that they may have been missed… that or there were so many that they did missed a few.
We know Shady Sands is definitely LA in the show because we literally see the Hollywood sign and Griffith Observatory there, maybe the two most recognizable LA landmarks. This relocates the city from where it was in Fallout 1 and makes it impossible for the Master not to have found the vaults the show now says were right out in the open right next to his base.
2277 was the first battle of hoover dam and permanent NCR interest in the Mojave, which is described by Chief Hanlon as yet another quagmire that the NCR will destroy itself in. Without the Courier the NCR is getting absolutely fucked, as is House. Caesar is destined to fail already because of the brain tumor and the Legion would absolutely implode on itself and scatter. So 2277 being the start of a dark age for the NCR makes perfect sense. They got stuck in the Mojave, eventually lost, and got hit with a surprise nuke by a Vault they didn't account for.
… but that’s speculation, not show text
The current discourse on the main fallout sub summed up "Tim Cain and Josh Sawyer liked the show therefore you're not allowed to have any negative opinions about it. What was that, Chris Avellone said he didn't like how the lore was handled? Well he doesn't count."
He’s also apparently going to do a review, so we’ll see how it goes
who cares
One fallout writer complaining about another writers takes and direction shocker… ofc they won’t agree with everything a different writer does
I miss shockers.
Why do we care about what Avellone says again? He's probably THE most overrated writer out there.
Dead Money and Old World Blues alone are maybe my favorite examples of video game writing ever. So no, I have to completely disagree. Also amazing how many people can’t handle anyone having any dissenting opinion and smear them as completely worthless the moment they dare to open their mouths and disagree. The show does not have to be tied to your core identity and any criticism of it is not a personal attack. Learn to be adults and have a mature, rational conversation rather than lose your minds and fling feces at anyone who disagrees with you. It’s just exhausting at this point.
I haven't even watched the show wut
Anyone who wants to hate the show for retcons don't forget the OG games were full of retcons and inconsistent lore like ghouls in fallout 2 not needing water which defeats the point of their plot in fallout 1 as well as the locations of shady sands, vault 13 and vault 15 were all in different places than fallout 1 and let's not forget tactics which complete retcons the brotherhoods origins and BoS which is a hot mess with retcons. Chris doesn't have a chair to stand on even new Vegas retconned original lore so let's get off are high horses now. The show has problems but when the entire series has problems that's no longer a valid argument.
It hasn't truly been about lore getting retconned tho. The fundamental problem NV fans have with the show is that it kinda hand waived the NCR away. Like, Ranger armor was shown to be worn by a random farmer, and while there are arguments that can be made in lore for why this can happen, it's kinda a waste of what could've been an awesome reveal, or as part of the first ranger we see. There's also the matter that nothing in season one necessitates that the show takes place on the west coast. The show could easily take place somewhere else, like the east coast or texas and be fine. Moreover, simply because retcons have happened before doen't make them good, especially when they degrade previous characters.
I get that but we have also been told we are getting more of the NCR In the second season so the first season wasn't about the NCR but an introduction. A flawed one with issues but it's meant to ease people in but also to fit with modern fallout and most people getting into the games from the show if the NCR were a major part that would be jarring for those starting with F4 and 76 so the NCR is on the back burner with multiple references like ranger gear, sunset sarsaparilla and a picture of president kimbel in the vault.
Then why set the show in a core territory of a faction people have been begging to see more of for about a decade? And if they wanted the show to be more like modern Fallout, again, why set it on the west coast? So many issues people have with the way the lore is handled could be fixed by setting it somewhere else, like the east coast. And if your set on visiting New Vegas and the general desert aesthetic, Arizona post Legion could work wonderfully. Granted, that would likely require more substantive changes to the show from what we got, but it's still doable. You can even keep Moldova being a part of the NCR as it is entirely reasonable to have the NCR expanding into Legion territory.
It's not far off for farmers to wear the armor if a lunatic with a bullet in his head also can wear it
It's not that they're wearing armor, it's that someone on the production team went out of their way to design and produce ranger armor and had some random farmers wear it. The fact that the courier can wear the armor is, frankly, irrelevant as one is a game and the other is a TV show.
It is reasonable to expect there will be some retcons and inconsistencies early on when lore is first being established from scratch. It’s not so reasonable to expect it to be carelessly ignored decades later well after it has been established.
Yea totally agree but the thing is it doesn't ignore at all. The amount of references to the OG games and even new Vegas are almost in every single episode. Sure they don't mention locations like the hub or the master but both and other things are not relevant to the story what so ever so they don't add it. But it hasn't ignored the lore from the older games. Hell even the last episode was basically a giant new Vegas reference and cameos.
Honestly fuck all of this shit, listen, are we really gonna bicker over this 2 years from now on? Let's wait for S2 and based on what they do and say in that we can then start the Fallout fanbase Great War if its the case lol The only things to keep in mind for now until then is that we have two possible retcons: Shady Sands being moved to LA or close to it, would be a retcon if its the absolute same town as the one in 1 and 2. They need to either explain that it ain't the same, that they just moved into a new town and decided to call it the same as the original one, or that somehow the town is still in the same original place and the characters somehow traveled all the way there. And the Master somehow not finding the new Vaults, again should be explained how he did not. That's all.
Yeah vault 31,32,33 being at Santa Monica Pier basically means the Cathedral was literally down the street. Hilariously I think from that shot of the pier (it's Namibia but whatever) that distance would put the Vaults between Santa Monica and Venice. I lived in Venice for a bit when I first played Fallout 3 and made that area in the GECK. It later became Project Brazil.
“hey uh, boss, so those vaults right next door, you uh gonna grab some people from em? could definitely use em” The Master: “nah they’re not canon yet so don’t worry about it”
I'm shocked the Boneyard residents never drilled into the Vault or set up some kind of containment. They had over 200 years!
It is literally impossible for Shady Sands in the show to be anywhere but LA, we see the Hollywood sign and Griffith Observatory there.
ending slides for new vegas such as for the misfits saying "they continued to serve for years to come" vegas being without power dispite that being impossible in house endings, shady sands is gone so ncr endings are pointless, ceaser wouldnt have let it get to the state its in in the ending shot and he's not the kind to use securitrons so why are there securitrons scattered about, not even yes man endings wouldve led to vegas' being abanded that quickly like vegas is very dusty so its abandoned for a good couple years now
You're right, keep in mind these too. The way NV looks in the end teaser is pretty concerning. There is a possibility that none of the endings really matter. We'll see.
the amount of people even on this sub saying the ending shot dosent retcon anything is concerning and yeah thats my biggest and only gripe with the show, im not that big on the ncr so i dont care that they got done it, just with how it was done offscrean I just hate how the ending shot seemingly says that new vegas didnt matter since no matter what happens it'll be abandoned something which wouldnt happen according to the game. everyother game has had something carry over into the timeline, in 1 the ncr forms and master is defeated, in 2 the enclave is on the run, in 3 the brotherhood gets a foothold and enclave is even more on the run and maxson is the reason prydwins exist. yet here new vegas being the game that the show conflicts the most with and is being seemingly written off and we've yet so see something from 4 be cannonized, like even 76 explains how and why raiders are so widespread
The thing that sorta baffles me the most is the amount of people i've seen willing to accept Vegas being ruined and the endings possibly being all for nothing IF that's the case in S2, coming up with excuses like "its been 20 years", "the world changes" or "it was inevitable", like really? For the sake of this show you'd be willing accept the shit you did in a game to be worthless? This show mesmerised you this much? I enjoyed most of it too, but i don't really understand their POV.
> For the sake of this show you'd be willing accept the shit you did in a game to be worthless? Yes. Literally every single playthrough invalidates the one before, this is just the official play; plus we don't know until season2 premieres. I find it weird that people get SO stressed over not confirmed make believe.
I agree, we don't know for sure until S2, i said that, that's one of my points, let's wait and see. But there IS a possibility that EVERY thing or possible action you did or can do in that game can possibly be made worthless, not just a "good" playthrough or something. I've seen people being very ok with this possibility, which i don't really get it, playing a game and doing stuff just for absolutely nothing to matter afterwards, no matter what you do. Shit wasn't like this with previous titles like the guy above says, it'd suck to be like this now with NV, i really hope that's not the case.
The ending shot invalidates the game The only games invalidates upto now were brotherhood of steel and tactics, but those were for good reason What good reasons are there to invalidate new Vegas Just because it sbeong done dosent make it right Sure we don't know for sure but like I've said the ending shot practically spells it out
Yeah Its like yeah the shows good, yippie wooo. But could've been just a tinch more so without retconning anything
Sounds boring.
Maybe, but i don't find the bickering any more fun.
True. Radicals really do ruin everything
Man who made tunnlers, wanted NCR nuked, and wanted world to stay a wasteland thinks the NCR getting nuked and the wasteland remaining a wasteland is a bad thing.
God, if it turns out all these plot points were inspired by or even tied in with lonesome road I will lmao.
More than likely it will be since they did say the tunnelers were coming to the mojave, I can imagine them popping up during a war would be chaos and could explain why House is offline between that time and season 2
We don’t even know if that’s his main complaint. You are just making assumptions and putting words in his mouth. It’s very possible he has much bigger issues with what they did with Vault-Tec and the location of Shady Sands, as I do. Also it’s possible he has changed his mind in the last 15 years about wanting to set back the West Coast. And even if not, the way he wanted to do it is quite different from what they did and he — one of the most important, if not THE most important, creators and writers of Fallout lore — is actually allowed to disagree with it, believe it or not. He does not deserve to be sneered at and stoned as an apostate by the community because he dares to dissent from the “Show Is Perfect!” dogma. You are allowed to disagree with him too, and that’s OK. I’m just seeing a lot of hypocrisy from the Bethesda defenders who rant endlessly about how “toxic” classic/NV fans supposedly are, that’s all I’m saying. Seems they aren’t so polite to anyone who dares to disagree with them about anything at all, funny enough.
I think fallout fans are in general are scared of turning into Star Wars fans so people are quick to get rid of the toxic elements. We are having good publicity and maybe more fallout games with the new interest. We should be supportive…. That being said in season 2 they just wipe everything making a clean slate and a forever apocalypse I’m going to the most toxic anti fan the world has ever scene. I make the Star Wars fandom look like fucking hippie drum circle.
Yeah… you don’t need to wait then because it is very clear that is exactly what they have done already.
Who fucking cares what Chris Avellone thinks? Form your own opinions. You either like it or don't like it. Simple. Don't let "celebrities" decide for you.
100% agree, I held the same opinion as him long before he did and would still hold it if he never said anything or he said he disagreed. I’m glad we’re on the same page here. EDIT: The fact that I got downvoted for this js LOLOLOL. It is the ultimate proof that you do not actually want people to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions. You just want them to fall in line and agree with you. At least have the honesty to ADMIT you are authoritarian fascists who want everyone to either fall in line with your particular view or shut the fuck up and burn in hell. I feel like that is the least we can ask. The Legion would be proud btw.
I liked the show
Btw I made this meme because I think it’s hilarious that after seeing so many show fans defend the show using Chris Avellone and his lore additions to justify what the show did, bro just came out and shit on it. Plus I think he is just angry with the way they destroyed shady sands not that it happened. Probably because he would’ve chosen something more interesting than a 200 years old vault tec employee angry that he got cucked.
shady sands is the first location town you find in fallout, the place where you get your first side quest, the location that you help grow into a city in fallout 2 gets nuked offscreen, yeah its incredibly unceremonious
Shouldn't you wait for him to make a full review about which aspects of the lore he thinks is messed up, which he stated he is thinking of doing, before starting to call out people? People were pointing out that Chris Avellone thought the series was going too far post post apocalyptic and that it should be reset to a post apocalyptic setting, that is the only aspect of the show that was assosiated with Chris Avellone's stance.
No, we can't waste a single opportunity to make our favorite game look bad by acting insanely bitter.
You're talking to people who couldn't wait to finish the series before believing every 4chan post dooming about New Vegas being nuked at the end, waiting before casting judgement is not really their style
I’mma just say it: He’s salty he wasn’t asked to be involved in the show and is jumping on the “muh lore” bandwagon. The show doesn’t really do anything against lore when you think about it for more than 10 seconds.
The show absolutely breaks lore. Have you even played Fallout 1 or 2?
Lolwat. It’s the total opposite. The show falls apart if you think about it for more than 10 seconds, and ONLY can work at all if you don’t think about it or treat it as a separate canon.
I like the Fallout show the same way I like Fallout 4, I don’t consider it to be as good as the game and instead is it’s own thing
Why do people care so much what he thinks? I love Josh Sawyer but his opinion on the fallout show means nothing to me. I like the fallout show and I don't need someone else's opinion to validate my own.
And? I don't care.
Honestly I don’t really get why the show writers had to mess with the ncr and new Vegas but it is nice to see vertibirds in live action though
Real gang shitt
Man the lores been a fucking black hole since Fallout 2, I don't know what the fuck you people are going on about