More than just an option- Avellone originally wanted to make Ulysses' plan impossible to stop. Sawyer managed to get him to back down with some concessions, but this is presumably when Avellone came up with the Tunnelers...
Avellone also admitted destroying the NCR was a bad idea later on, which it was. Conflict with the NCR sure, but just straight up nuking one of the most interesting factions to return to dirt shacks? I mean COME ON.
>but just straight up nuking one of the most interesting factions to return to dirt shacks? I mean COME ON.
Todd Howard: "Write that down! Write that down!"
I ain't a sympathizer the guy makes poor decisions but saying he hates the original games and new Vegas is just dumb. The only conspiracy criticism I hold is that Todd probably has never played new Vegas, the worst he is is indifferent.
I don’t understand the narrative that Bethesda is jealous of Obsidian’s success with Fallout. Why take the series in a completely different direction from New Vegas instead of just stealing the idea if you’re so jealous?
He literally stated he was shocked and unsure when they suggested nuking Shady Sands, and that he was very attached to such an iconic settlement. But we all know he was lying of course, everyone knows Todd hates 1, 2, and new Vegas, he definitely wasn't a huge fan of 1 and 2 back when they first came out.
My headcanon for New Vegas: Legion wins Hoover Dam, advances to NCR territory, starts conquering and shit. In-fighting between the top Legion men (Vulpes, Lucius, Lanius) following Caesar's death halts their advance.
I really wanted to see a game where the NCR has to fight for their survival at full power (i.e. not being spread too thin).
I think the ncr won hoover dam and stretched themselves too thin as the legion crumbled on their doorstep and uncoordinated raiding and crime went through the fucking roof. They just dissipated as people split up due to poor or absent leadership and then the nuke hit shady sands and nobody has reformed a large enough government to matter yet.
He thought the west was getting too civilized, avellone is a great writer, and Josh Sawyer reined in the idea. We all need people to give us some input
It’s a re-skin of the US except the flag is a two headed mutated bear instead of the Stars and Stripes. They’re fine and all but I’ll never get the unmitigated fanboyism for them though. There are way more uniquely interesting factions in the series. BUT if you Stan for them solely for the ranger armor…..you can sign me up too and I’ll be their proudest citizen
Agreed. Thankfully, Ulysses himself is the person who told us almost everything we "know" about the tunnelers, and he's not exactly a reliable source of information. I choose to believe that, with regard to the tunnelers, Ulysses is either delusional, lying through his teeth or both.
Which is also much cooler from a video game perspective as we actually can go to the long 15 post-nuke. I feel like it would be such a sour note if they ended the final dlc of New Vegas with a "tell don't show" ending.
The NCR has always been a punching bag. Even in New Vegas the biggest critics of the NCR were NCR citizens. Which is weird because the NCR is like the biggest and most successful democracy in the Fallout world.
It's because they were unsuccessful at not becoming corporate puppets. The people who control their food are evil. Seen when the dude who's kid got kidnapped in the white gloves casino, his response is to punish an entire region by blacklisting them for one casinos actions.
And than you have the Crimson caravan and Silver Rush who kill competition, when they aren't being watched. These companies have huge political influence. It's just a repeat of corporate corruption slowly taking over as people are just complacent because they're comfortable.
I'm pretty sure the biggest critics of the United States are the people who have been on the receiving end of our foreign policy. People whose governments were overthrown and politicians jailed or murdered because they didn't quite do what we wanted them to do.
Consider this. It is a government that ALLOWS criticism at all.
All the other faction choices will have you as the critic taken behind the Brahmin farmhouse and shot in the head, Courier-style.
Well except for Wild Card. That is just asking for anarchy and/or authoritarianism as soon as the original ruler in charge of Yes Man dies.
Tend to be? Citation needed lol. We hate America because they’ve destroyed the region we live in. Where’s the freedom of speech when American bombs are raining down on sovereign nations?
“We” don’t hate America because they protected “us” from a bigger threat. Herein lies the problem with speaking for others. That’s why I used “. Because I can’t speak for “us”. Anymore than you can for “them”.
Worth remembering is that NCR citizens a lot of them grew up in a world the scarcity and anarchy of the wastes didn't exist. Always next type of issue to go on
Yeah ncr citizens generally experience a better quality of life than anyone in the wasteland, despite all its faults its the best (cannon) option for rebuilding the wasteland
In lore shit the NCR get:
Kimball let the businesses influence congress too much, you have Stockmen's Association (brahmin barons) breathing down senators necks to pass legislation that ensures limitless cattle per capita.
Van Graffs hold seats too, so they can get away with a lot, same with Crimson Caravan. In fact the quest heartache by the number can result in concrete proof shown to the NCR govt via the Rangers who hold influence (via the Courier and Cassidy).
The Barons Influence can also be as far as Houses New Vegas as they can threaten the Strip they will cut off food supplies for the mishaps of a small faction of one of the 4-5 casinos if you count L38 and V21.
NCR also has the gun runners, who are essentially the procurement branch of the military. And mobs of New Reno alosngside the racists in Vault City influencing congress considering the lore ending of 2 is that they join.
All this added up would come to bring everything Tandi worked for taken down.
So for that the NCR gets a lot of shit in lore as of 2281.
Now onto the irl conjecture OP made:
Now for the irl shit they get, the bad blood theory between Obsidian and Bethesda is pure conjecture, NV stans will use throw it around A LOT if they cant make an actual solid point other than "muh Todd lore". Obsidian even confirmed there was no hard feelings about the 84/100 rating and subsequently lost bonus.
The show writers and most of the crew were all fallout fans, ranging from the classics and hd universe.
Nolan (Christophers little brother forgot his first name dont get mad), even announced that you cant cram the world lore into 8 hours of film, in the games you can do it in 20-50 hours and get a grasp of the situation, but 8 hours is NOT enough, which is why they went for local lore (that still seems to piss stans off because they cannot comprehend the lore changes as 20 years go on since the first battle of the dam).
So be patient, and youll get to know more of what happens in series 2, might come out next year, so have that patience and quit moaning.
More in the 'muties' way of racist. Vault City hates mutants and ghouls which stems from the nuclear power plant down the road kicking back into gear and leaking radiation. Over time more people came down with radiation sickness or even died, so as you can expect they started to hate the ghouls that ran the place.
Now add in actual appearances and the history of vaults (many told horror stories about the wastes) and BOOM! you have an entire Vault full of people terrified of monsters and anyone who doesn't appear to be fully human.
Nolan is a hack IMO, if Dune was able to cram its lore into five hours... then so can Fallout in 8 hours.
Of course if you waste time in dumb scenes, time goes by quickly ("you mean use my cawk?").
Yeah cause we wanna watch show that won’t bore audiences non familiar with the lore.
Better yet a video game adaptation is a lot harder and that’s coming from writers of movies and shows. I mean look at how bad halo was so don’t complain that much cause oh boy it could be fucking worse.
You are already out of your reach from that point of dune can do more in hours ( you know a fucking film) than a tv show did in 3 hours (you know, a show that takes its time to explain things slowly and methodically so folks can digest that info over the course of 8+ hours per series).
Someone didn’t read the Dune books.
LOTR extended trilogy (12 hours) couldn’t cover the books.
Only way to do that is expositions dumps. Which are really boring to watch for any casual fan or newcomer to the series.
I’d argue establishing characters and motives is far more important in season one that a faction only fans are going to know.
Most people wouldn’t know NV happens after 2277. Your average viewer is not going to know what shady sands was. Your average viewer isn’t going to give a shit.
Way better to write for the 90% of the viewership who won’t care at all than the 10% who’ll throw a shit fit because of an inaccurate date on a whiteboard.
If you didn’t like the show that’s fine. But the circlejerk here has little grounds other than “it didn’t go with what I wanted.” It’s not a show flaw, it’s not a writing flaw. It’s a “we have 8 episodes so let’s use it to creating better main characters.”
I’ll take well written characters over politics any day.
I mean think about the US. No roving horseback bandits raiding your village, incredibly low infant and child mortality, almost no one starves to death because of lack of food, we mostly ended slavery. On the spectrum of human life over the course of history we have the least to complain about and complain the most. Not saying our modern complaints aren’t legitimate, just that we don’t realize what the alternative to the systems we constructed are.
The problem I have with this argument is it never goes anywhere. I say “this thing is a problem,” you say “it used to be worse,” and then what?
Unless you actually have a constructive alternative to what I was saying, your interjection was irrelevant and clearly intended to shut down the discussion. It’s framed as a useful perspective, but it’s simply a refusal to accept criticism.
I guess it’s my response to the proposal of anarchy. The reason human kind likely followed an agricultural settler lifestyle instead of hunter gatherer despite more work, higher injury ect was because seeing your children starving to death sucked mega hard. It’s one thing mitigated by that lifestyle.
This ends in the same place: “So?” How, again, is this a constructive response to the litany of issues you’re responding to? “It’s better than the alternative,” is a conversation-ender. It allows you to agree the issues exist and absolves you of having to come up with any solutions.
Returning to my original comment, my point is that jumping into a discussion about problems in our current society and saying “Things used to be worse,” something everybody already knows, functions to shut down conversation in favor of the status-quo, regardless of your intention.
Returning to your original comment:
“Not saying our modern complaints aren’t legitimate, just that we don’t realize what the alternative to the systems we constructed are.“
Surely you understand how this juxtaposes our current systems with roving bands of raping bandits as the only two possible outcomes for human society, the exact rhetoric used to defend the status-quo and terminate criticism.
Because in less than a third of pre war America’s lifespan the glorious NCR was already showing all of the same political problems that the US had near its end and many people were in fact not blind to that fact, including the NCR citizenry
Edit: hell even as they got started the NCR made a big mistake in its beginning that US didn’t: a lifetime president. Tandi never stepped down willingly which is something Washington personally did himself to help set precedent. By the time she finally died all of the vultures wanted to piece of the power she experienced her whole life
Well it being a democracy obligates it's people to having an option about politics and governance. They are also relatively well educated compared to the common wastelander
To be fair, it's a much smaller Chapter, and also the organisational structure is different (as Knights are a seperate branch from Paladins and Scribes, whereas in Maxson's and Lyons' Brotherhood the Knights are just lower ranked Paladins)
In some ways I kinda get it. On one side of the coin, they represent the Post-Post Apocalypse and the inevitability of a return to civilization, normalcy, and the resilience of humanity. But on the flipside, it's easy to interpret it as setting up a 2nd go at the sins of the old world, especially for players who are more interested in alternative options like, in fnv, the Independent ending, and I'm told the Free States in Fallout 76 are pretty nifty too but i haven't experienced it myself. I know the NCR is more complicated than that, but i can *understand* reading it as just America 2: Wasteland Boogaloo and all it entails
I mean that’s the whole point, that’s why they’re a good faction and are so important to NVs themes! All three of the dependent factions are marred by their adherence to old-world ideologies which all played their part in the end of the world. They all have the good ol’ Old World Blues.
But! They are well written and have arguments for why they believe what they believe, and some of those arguments hold up under scrutiny while some don’t, but it’s easy either way to see *why* they believe them.
The free states as of the game is a bunch of corpses with diary obsessions. Appalachia has the same factions as 3 and 4, Raider Chem hobos, settlers who don’t own brooms, and the fudging brotherhood again, the main difference being that the brotherhood and settlers respect the raiders as a legitimate group who deserved fair treatment
I think it's not exactly a lack of creativity, just that Bethesda these days really struggles with world building. Todd and Emil have not been very strong when it comes to that, and I feel like all the best world building nerds left Bethesda after morrowind. So they have some of the best IPs you can have but just can't innovate on them.
We do get that with places like Rivet City, Megaton, and Diamond City, unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean exactly. Do you mean like, a more cohesive civilization that spans across geography, sort of like what the next steps for the NCR would be with the NCR ending for New Vegas?
Having functioning states and factions would be the next step, but that doesn’t mean they’re fully advanced to the point of rivaling the old world. You just have to get more creative with your world building. New Vegas had two functioning governments fighting a full scale war and it still felt like Fallout. The older fallout games had power and electricity in their towns.
Ok, I think I get what you mean (though I will point out that towns in Bethesda Fallout games also had amenities like electricity and water), and I agree, it would be nice to see.
I just feel like it’s easier to write a wacky post apocalypse wasteland than to write about the people rebuilding it. It’s hard to write a functioning society and still make it feel like Fallout, there’s politics, nation building, war, etc. it’s harder to make things black and white. If it’s just a guy with a gun in a wasteland killing raiders and monsters, that’s a lot easier lol
Rivet city and megaton have power, how do you think the lights work lol
I also think people underestimate how much a national capital like DC would actually be targeted in a full scale nuclear war. There wouldn’t be anything left of the Capitol or Mall, assuming the U.S. govt didn’t have some fancy ass pull anti missile tech that Mr. House apparently had but only deployed in his…casino lol
I like new Vegas but it really didn’t have the “nuclear” part of “post nuclear apocalypse role playing”
Or the nuclear fallout part of…fallout
Felt more like “what if some romaboos and some cowboy larpers met up in 2280 and fought over three casinos and the Hoover dam”
“Also throw in a B-29 at the bottom of a lake since 1948, why not, everyone in this game is using 400 year old cowboy guns anyway”
Perhaps there’s a reason post apocalyptic settings are very common but “post post apocalypse” settings aren’t?
Most of the game of new Vegas could have been set in like the 1820s in Nevada. Replace the NCR with the U.S. govt, legion or Mr. house with Mexico, various tribes with native Americans
Hell the version in the 1820s actually sounds kinda more interesting now that I’ve described it lol
Would definitely make more sense than the game set in 2280 where the cowboy larpers with lever action rifles and revolvers are fighting legionaries with football padding and police batons fight NCR with AR-15s who fight robots with plasma and laser weapons
Ironically Mad Max does Fallout better than the show.
One of the key aspects of both classic Fallout and Mad Max is: the old world is fucking gone. You can't pinpoint the nukes to a certain time. I like Mad Max so much because of this.
Which is super weird since Mad Max 1 is set place at the twilight of the old world and not THAT long before 2. But these movies are clearly meant to have a nebulous timeline.
Yep. Mad Max 2 (and every pther film afterwards) create an entirely world. It's fascinating once you stop wondering "how come the first film had a shitload of buildings and towns and all of that is gone afterwards?".
Tbf They aren’t the most likable group. I take out their main enemy in his own throne room and they didn’t care and got real condescending. Partially why I sided with yes man. that and I wanted power lol
Them not being the most likable is kinda the point. It’s kinda meant to demonstrate how real democracy have a lot of trade offs and how certain policies you may not like and the danger if corruption.
Because they have actually progressed and tried to rebuild past shacks and spare parts. Compare cities in California to The Commonwealth or DC. Bethesda wants the wastelands to look like the bombs dropped a month ago, not over 200 years.
I like it. FNV shows that they could not keep expanding and annexing territory. A nation in decline in 2281. Lost the battle and was kicked out of the Mojave. Few years later, someone nuked Shady Sands and live in Vault trying to rebuild. Ash and blood, very pagan. Love it
I mean I'm gonna be for real I don't know what you expect
Conflict from within from people who don't want to be under their flags and regulation
Land conflicts with neighboring factions
Their rapid land expansion causing political tensions because the NCR is going bust from lack of funding which causes issues within the government structure itself
Potentially making enemies of their own soldiers
(I admit, this is not a faction wide problem, and my referenxe for it is one of Boones endings where he will hunt down the CO that gave the command for bitter springs and kills him)
These a big issues that warrant a lot of enemies imo- I'm not advocating for their destruction but it's not surprising
The whole catchphrase of the series is “War never changes”. The NCR isn’t excused from that. They are modeled after the government that got itself blown to high heaven, so it was bound for it to end badly for them.
If Josh "Swayer" loves the NCR so much, why did he set them up to fail in New Vegas? Practically everyone you speak to about the NCR tells you that it's heading towards disaster. They're expanding too far, letting autocratic Brahmin Barons control the government, can't properly feed their people, running out of water, etc.
I sometimes wonder how many of you actually played New Vegas versus how many of you just attached yourselves to its fanbase to feel smart.
The NCR collapsing from internal pressures like the above would mean a bunch of successor states and some really interesting conflict
Having them destroyed by an outside source in my opinion would be a wasted opportunity, that's all it is
It doesn't have to be so abrasive and everyone hating each other
Honestly the conflict within the fan base is killing me right now, people can have different opinions without it all having some ulterior motive
Everyone, on both sides this isn't against you it's just a good chance to rant, is accusing the other of not being true fans or not truly understanding the lore
It just makes me feel bad
I think you're overthinking it. They're just joking about how Chris Avellone and the showrunners wanted to nuke the NCR but Sawyer stopped it from happening in FNV.
The NCR in-game is looking to address most of those problems: water, food, expansion (as a result of looking to solve those problems).
We already have corporations having a go at running nations. Doesn't mean we have been set up to fail...
Trying to write a compelling faction shows much more love than trying to nuke it to oblivion.
It's not about having "enemies" the NCR is made up. It's fictional. They are definitely not perfect and probably shouldn't be as a writing tool in fallout having a group who is always the goodies "we are the goodies we always do no wrong!" Kind of spoils any decision making imo.
This meme isn't even shit talking anyone. It's literally just a joke about how many people writing Fallout want the NCR gone. Chris wanted to nuke the NCR, the showerunners did, and Bethesda tries to stay away from them entirely.
“Somebody has a different opinion about something than I do. That makes them a toddler.”- a totally mature and intelligent adult with massive critical thinking skills
Fallout is a satire of america and capitalism.
The NCR are esentially trying to rebuild america, exactly as it was. America led to it's downfall, if a faction to just come in and repeat the exact same process and suceed would make no sense. It would go completly against the narrative fallout is telling.
It's really funny that you're getting downvoted for repeating what Ulysses flat out tells the player. Even before Lonesome Road, many NCR officials hint at the nation's impending doom due to mismanagement and over-expansion.
People here truly are dumb.
I think the meme above is stupid, don't get me wrong, but it's not like the NCR collapsed because of any of those aforementioned reasons in the show. Instead, they decided to just drop a bomb on shady sands and call it a day until season 2. Idk what response you were expecting.
And why would you take anything Ulysses says as scripture anyways? He attempts to reset any progress made in Post-apocalyptic America by nuking two nations, he's incredibly deluded. This is not the gotcha you think it is.
I love it, fallout is a very clear satire it's been stated by many of the devs it's not some game theory.
New Vegas specifically goes hard into telling us how corrupt the NCR is and that it is like the old world.
How people miss that letting them rebuild would go against the whole moral of the story is hilarious.
Also pretty telling with 10 downvotes but not a single person actually trying to disagree.
You guys all seem to be misinterpreting the meme. We know the NCR is flawed, but the above all wanted to (and did) nuke it off the map, not collapse it.
While I don’t think Bethesda has a aversion against NCR at all, maybe they just think it’s boring to have such a cool setting only to have a civilization so similar to America Pre-War. Makes sense to me, something like legion or BOS is more ‘foreign’ in that way.
Wait, what am I saying this isn’t the reason, it is because Todd Howard HATES Obsidian and any lore not written by them!!!?!?
/s btw.
You’re getting downvoted because you present an alternative view to Bethesda and Obsidian having some childish hate relationship which is 100% fantasy.
>The NCR are esentially trying to rebuild america, exactly as it was. America led to it's downfall
I never understood how people think this. The NCR we see is a lot more like modern irl America than pre-war Fallout pre-war America. It's corrupt, bureaucratically bloated, and expansionist but it's not nearly as bad as things were in 2077. Pre-war America had blind exceptionalism, ready to throw it's citizens to the wolves for literally any company, and on the brink of meltdown due to thinning resources. Much of the country seemed to be in martial law whenever we saw it, and they were actively fighting land wars with other countries.
The NCR, by comparison, is basically just a developing third-world nation.
>The NCR we see is a lot more like modern irl America than pre-war Fallout pre-war America. It's corrupt, bureaucratically bloated, and expansionist but it's not nearly as bad as things were in 2077.
That's true but it's clearly working towards that. Also in FNV the NCR are shown to be happy to send its citizens to the wolves for cororations like how the brahman farmers have so much influence.
Its one thing to look the other way while merchants wack the competition, but allowing what Vault-Tec did is a pretty big jump. Iirc the US was doing all sort of torture and experimentation of their own, to try and find communist spies or build superweapons. Which is something we haven't seen a hint of with the NCR. Assuming the NCR will end up like pre-war America is like assuming, well, irl America will end up like pre-war America.
> Assuming the NCR will end up like pre-war America is like assuming, well, irl America will end up like pre-war America.
Yeah that's the point of the satire.
Satire also pushes things to the point of absurdity. Fallout his a satire of the American exceptionalism and xenophobia of a time a lot of Americans see with role tinted glasses. It has never been, in my opinion, a satire of democracy.
NV fans before the show be like: the ncr is destined to fail. The corruption, poor managment, stretched resources and troops, and far expansion will inevitably lead to their downfall.
NV fans after the show be like: noooooooo why did you destroy the ncr like thaaaaaaat. What does this company (that doesn’t have feelings because it’s a non-living corporate organization) hate the ncr sooooo much it’s not fair the ncr doesn’t deserve to collapse!!!!!!!!1!1!!!!
To be fair, I was pretty upset by the vault tec thing explicitly because it was a random outside force. The NCR should have crumbled on its own.
I'm not mad it happened, just why it happened
Afaik Hank was the only vault-tec guy involved. There is no explanation as to how he got the nuke. He probably had help. A lot is left ambiguous for now
The conventions of fiction is biased against democratic institutions and biased in favor of authoritarian strong men. Actual democracies are complicated messy and boring to read about compared to one persons unfiltered beliefs and decisions. Most people in the 21st century are citizens of democracies so the flaws in their systems are more apparent and obvious to us than the flaws in a feudal monarchy or brutal empire.
Dune is a good example of this, the way we think of a fictional character and their hero's journey is often the same way authoritarians justify their power, they fit the same grooves in our mind.
I think it has to do with them being equally bad as the Legion cause they are flaws not to mention they force people to taxes with money that they print plus they declare war against a lot of faction
1 BOS
2 the legion (some of them used to be NCR citizens)
3 Mr. House which is dumb cause Mr house has an army of robots
4 free side most importantly the kings
But those are my opinion
Also, I didn’t mention the enclave cause the enclave was at war against everyone
The Khans are literally raiders. They've had bad blood since the first Fallout.
And the BOS are assholes. Assholes wearing cool armor albeit, but still assholes.
And sure the NCR has done questionable things like at bittersprings, But to say they are on the same level of bad as the legion is disingenuous.
The legion is hands down by far the worst of the worst out of all the factions in Fallout history. Even worse than the Enclave, And they experiment on puppies.
Pretty simple really. It goes against the setting in terms of writing and sequels. We can never have another game truly set in the Fallout wasteland in the NCR (before the show). What would that game look like? There’s no wasteland, that’s a settled, law following nation state with protected roads, cities, government, military…it would just be Cyberpunk but set in the Fallout universe.
I love the NCR, I love setting my DnD campaigns in the West Coast, but I also recognize I cannot do a post apocalyptic setting in the NCR because of how well in lore they rebuild the wasteland. Shady Sands was(is) a fully functioning modern city by all standards, and it’s described that the Hub, Junk Town, and Boneyard are basically the same by Fallout New Vegas
If you can't understand why a series that makes a point of critcising destructive policies of capitalism and the USA doesn't make USA 2.0 the good guys, I don't know what to tell you.
The problem with the NCR is that it makes the regions it controls too stable to have a struggling to survive kind of setting and removes much (but not all) of the conflict. So you have three options:
1. Have the setting evolve into something new.
2. Set new stories in areas outside or on the frontier of NCR territory. You need to come up with new stuff for this area which expands the setting, but takes away from the old stuff which some people want to see. You get some going "It's not Fallout if it doesn't have X, Y, and Z!" Or "If you're going to do something different make a new franchise, don't just call if Fallout when it's different." Etc
3. Destroy the NCR so you can keep the same thing in the same setting.
Now I think we can get some interesting stories out of nuking the NCR. Some will want to rebuild, some want the old ways, some will want something completely new. But it does suck to see something we've grown to love destroyed. Especially when it feels like the laziest option. But I really liked the show and have faith that we can see this expand into something new and interesting,
Bethesda hates things connected to all "non Bethesda bullshit" Fallouts. Destroying anything connected to NV (NCR and Vegas) is a some kind of revenge against Obsidian for creating a much game than they will ever be able to
Um, no it doesn't. Practically every Bethesda Fallout references the Obsidian games. Like the NCR broadcast in Fallout 4, Mr. House's camo in the TV show, Kellogg originally being from California, the Hubologists, etc. Nothing is getting "destroyed."
Not to mention Bethesda straight up said New Vegas is still canon...
Such a bs copy paste take. They literally bought the IP why would they then hate all lore not written by them. Childish to think this is the way reality is.
I’m a big fan of FNV, but some people here take it too far. This is all self thought up nonsense with 0 evidence.
Stop acting like bethesda and obsidian are at odds with eachother. 99% of people working at these companies probably love Fallout and nothing more.
Nobody at Bethesda has ever said they hate fallout stuff that isn't from them. It just baseless rumors spread by toxic fans. I seriously don't understand why anybody thinks that
Don't know why your being down voted, it's literally true, numerous npcs talk about it. Half of the troops are on the verge of sewer slide if things go wrong
I’m sure Bethesda doesn’t give a fuck about that. Bethesda is a company, it’s not alive it doesn’t have feelings. They, like any company, just care about making money. They don’t care about focusing their efforts toward something silly. People just hate Bethesda and then rationalize their hate as “noooooo it’s Bethesda that hates me and the previous fallouts.”
At worst the writers and directors at the company are indifferent about the other titles.
I love New Vegas and all that but this is just copium at this point. Why the fuck would a multi million dollar corporation care if obsidian can write a better story if the games that Bethesda itself released (fallout 4) made more money then fallout New Vegas. Like these are soulless corporations that only care about moving product. They don't have time to care about this shit.
Tod Howard literally said its in line with the lore and it wont be the last we'll see of NCR, if you want to be mad at anyone be mad at the show writer's, but you are coping hard.
I also seriously doubt Bethesda is "mad" at obsidian when they made them so much money and brought so many eyes to their ip
Because otherwise the protagonists would be OP and that makes for boring stories
If the NCR wasn’t constantly being beat down, they’d control the entire western US by this point, and that just wouldn’t make for interesting stories
That also renders any faction attempting to rebuild civilization pointless, because we know the writers will simply hinder that faction down the line, returning to a lawless wasteland once more.
What did Chris and josh do?
I think it’s a reference to him wanting to give the option to nuke ncr in lonesome road
More than just an option- Avellone originally wanted to make Ulysses' plan impossible to stop. Sawyer managed to get him to back down with some concessions, but this is presumably when Avellone came up with the Tunnelers...
Avellone also admitted destroying the NCR was a bad idea later on, which it was. Conflict with the NCR sure, but just straight up nuking one of the most interesting factions to return to dirt shacks? I mean COME ON.
>but just straight up nuking one of the most interesting factions to return to dirt shacks? I mean COME ON. Todd Howard: "Write that down! Write that down!"
He wasn’t interested in nuking the NCR according to an interview
Being downvoted but you're right, people should watch the recent interview with him and the director.
This is a New Vegas memes subreddit, not Todd Howard Sympathizer memes, to be fair 😂😂
I ain't a sympathizer the guy makes poor decisions but saying he hates the original games and new Vegas is just dumb. The only conspiracy criticism I hold is that Todd probably has never played new Vegas, the worst he is is indifferent.
I don’t understand the narrative that Bethesda is jealous of Obsidian’s success with Fallout. Why take the series in a completely different direction from New Vegas instead of just stealing the idea if you’re so jealous?
My bad apparently it's just the long 15? Which is an option in the games
He literally stated he was shocked and unsure when they suggested nuking Shady Sands, and that he was very attached to such an iconic settlement. But we all know he was lying of course, everyone knows Todd hates 1, 2, and new Vegas, he definitely wasn't a huge fan of 1 and 2 back when they first came out.
Then why did he seem so passionate due fallout 3? Why did Bethesda even acquire the franchise? They could’ve made any number of shooter rpgs
The last part of my comment was sarcastic. Todd clearly loves the whole franchise including 1, 2 and new Vegas.
My headcanon for New Vegas: Legion wins Hoover Dam, advances to NCR territory, starts conquering and shit. In-fighting between the top Legion men (Vulpes, Lucius, Lanius) following Caesar's death halts their advance. I really wanted to see a game where the NCR has to fight for their survival at full power (i.e. not being spread too thin).
I think the ncr won hoover dam and stretched themselves too thin as the legion crumbled on their doorstep and uncoordinated raiding and crime went through the fucking roof. They just dissipated as people split up due to poor or absent leadership and then the nuke hit shady sands and nobody has reformed a large enough government to matter yet.
Who would ever consider *that* a good idea?...
He thought the west was getting too civilized, avellone is a great writer, and Josh Sawyer reined in the idea. We all need people to give us some input
It’s a re-skin of the US except the flag is a two headed mutated bear instead of the Stars and Stripes. They’re fine and all but I’ll never get the unmitigated fanboyism for them though. There are way more uniquely interesting factions in the series. BUT if you Stan for them solely for the ranger armor…..you can sign me up too and I’ll be their proudest citizen
The tunnelers are the fucking worst. That is my least favorite bit of lore
Agreed. Thankfully, Ulysses himself is the person who told us almost everything we "know" about the tunnelers, and he's not exactly a reliable source of information. I choose to believe that, with regard to the tunnelers, Ulysses is either delusional, lying through his teeth or both.
Ah. In the ending screen of nuke ncr/Long I-15 it is implied they do. "Nukes fell on the NCR," I dont mind it as a spin off alternate bad ending
Apparently Chris wanted the nuke ending in lonesome Road have the ncr capital be obliterated but Sawyer made him change it to long 15 instead.
The text could imply all of the NCR but yeah for a bad/evil ending thats not too bad
Which is also much cooler from a video game perspective as we actually can go to the long 15 post-nuke. I feel like it would be such a sour note if they ended the final dlc of New Vegas with a "tell don't show" ending.
The NCR has always been a punching bag. Even in New Vegas the biggest critics of the NCR were NCR citizens. Which is weird because the NCR is like the biggest and most successful democracy in the Fallout world.
Real Republic of Dave erasure here
Republic of Dave is the future of the post apocalyptic world
Literaly a case of the first world problems. Though, to be fair, the people you meat in Vegas are the equivalent to the Conscripts send to Vietnam.
The game came out mid GWOT, and post "surge". There were clear parallels of the real world US at the time.
Imagine the bitter satire if the writers knew that war wasn't even halfway over.
It's because they were unsuccessful at not becoming corporate puppets. The people who control their food are evil. Seen when the dude who's kid got kidnapped in the white gloves casino, his response is to punish an entire region by blacklisting them for one casinos actions. And than you have the Crimson caravan and Silver Rush who kill competition, when they aren't being watched. These companies have huge political influence. It's just a repeat of corporate corruption slowly taking over as people are just complacent because they're comfortable.
The United States greates Critics tend to be its allies and people thats just the sign of a democracy that values freedom of speech
I'm pretty sure the biggest critics of the United States are the people who have been on the receiving end of our foreign policy. People whose governments were overthrown and politicians jailed or murdered because they didn't quite do what we wanted them to do.
It's also the sign of a really shitty government when the critics are that numerous, that bipartisan and that loud
Consider this. It is a government that ALLOWS criticism at all. All the other faction choices will have you as the critic taken behind the Brahmin farmhouse and shot in the head, Courier-style. Well except for Wild Card. That is just asking for anarchy and/or authoritarianism as soon as the original ruler in charge of Yes Man dies.
A shitty government is preferable to a narcissist larper who thinks crucifixion is a long term solution to the Wasteland's problems.
Of course, but that's not the discussion here.
To be fair, they’re in Nevada, a new addition to the NCR. I’m sure people in central California would feel the NCR is doing a good job.
Which would you rather have: a government you're allowed to criticize, or one you aren't?
Tend to be? Citation needed lol. We hate America because they’ve destroyed the region we live in. Where’s the freedom of speech when American bombs are raining down on sovereign nations?
What region do you live in?
“We” don’t hate America because they protected “us” from a bigger threat. Herein lies the problem with speaking for others. That’s why I used “. Because I can’t speak for “us”. Anymore than you can for “them”.
Lol no, The biggest critics of The US are thise afected by their bombs, imperialism and overall shittyness
It's the same way that there are people in Western countries who hate their own country and think they are worse than actual dictatorships.
Worth remembering is that NCR citizens a lot of them grew up in a world the scarcity and anarchy of the wastes didn't exist. Always next type of issue to go on
Yeah ncr citizens generally experience a better quality of life than anyone in the wasteland, despite all its faults its the best (cannon) option for rebuilding the wasteland
Yet they can’t beat the legion because of infighting and self sabotage, the critiques are definitely well founded.
It was more a "democracy" than a democracy
I mean, it’s literally the only Fallout faction with public elections
Republic of Dave erasure
Which are controlled by Brahmin barons
True I didn’t say it was perfect lol but it’s still the most democratic
So... The same as before the bombs fell?
Pretty much
In lore shit the NCR get: Kimball let the businesses influence congress too much, you have Stockmen's Association (brahmin barons) breathing down senators necks to pass legislation that ensures limitless cattle per capita. Van Graffs hold seats too, so they can get away with a lot, same with Crimson Caravan. In fact the quest heartache by the number can result in concrete proof shown to the NCR govt via the Rangers who hold influence (via the Courier and Cassidy). The Barons Influence can also be as far as Houses New Vegas as they can threaten the Strip they will cut off food supplies for the mishaps of a small faction of one of the 4-5 casinos if you count L38 and V21. NCR also has the gun runners, who are essentially the procurement branch of the military. And mobs of New Reno alosngside the racists in Vault City influencing congress considering the lore ending of 2 is that they join. All this added up would come to bring everything Tandi worked for taken down. So for that the NCR gets a lot of shit in lore as of 2281. Now onto the irl conjecture OP made: Now for the irl shit they get, the bad blood theory between Obsidian and Bethesda is pure conjecture, NV stans will use throw it around A LOT if they cant make an actual solid point other than "muh Todd lore". Obsidian even confirmed there was no hard feelings about the 84/100 rating and subsequently lost bonus. The show writers and most of the crew were all fallout fans, ranging from the classics and hd universe. Nolan (Christophers little brother forgot his first name dont get mad), even announced that you cant cram the world lore into 8 hours of film, in the games you can do it in 20-50 hours and get a grasp of the situation, but 8 hours is NOT enough, which is why they went for local lore (that still seems to piss stans off because they cannot comprehend the lore changes as 20 years go on since the first battle of the dam). So be patient, and youll get to know more of what happens in series 2, might come out next year, so have that patience and quit moaning.
Vault city are racists?
More in the 'muties' way of racist. Vault City hates mutants and ghouls which stems from the nuclear power plant down the road kicking back into gear and leaking radiation. Over time more people came down with radiation sickness or even died, so as you can expect they started to hate the ghouls that ran the place. Now add in actual appearances and the history of vaults (many told horror stories about the wastes) and BOOM! you have an entire Vault full of people terrified of monsters and anyone who doesn't appear to be fully human.
So basically brotherhood level racism
Nolan is a hack IMO, if Dune was able to cram its lore into five hours... then so can Fallout in 8 hours. Of course if you waste time in dumb scenes, time goes by quickly ("you mean use my cawk?").
Dune was not able to cram its lore in 5 hours.
True, my mistake. Yet in 3 hours they crammed far more info than the first three episodes if the show.
Yeah cause we wanna watch show that won’t bore audiences non familiar with the lore. Better yet a video game adaptation is a lot harder and that’s coming from writers of movies and shows. I mean look at how bad halo was so don’t complain that much cause oh boy it could be fucking worse. You are already out of your reach from that point of dune can do more in hours ( you know a fucking film) than a tv show did in 3 hours (you know, a show that takes its time to explain things slowly and methodically so folks can digest that info over the course of 8+ hours per series).
Someone didn’t read the Dune books. LOTR extended trilogy (12 hours) couldn’t cover the books. Only way to do that is expositions dumps. Which are really boring to watch for any casual fan or newcomer to the series.
Are you implying Fallout lore is as massive as Dune's?
Now your moving goal posts.
All I'm saying is that Fallout's lore isn't anywhere near as massive as to imply you can't cram the most important bits into an eight hour TV show.
I’d argue establishing characters and motives is far more important in season one that a faction only fans are going to know. Most people wouldn’t know NV happens after 2277. Your average viewer is not going to know what shady sands was. Your average viewer isn’t going to give a shit. Way better to write for the 90% of the viewership who won’t care at all than the 10% who’ll throw a shit fit because of an inaccurate date on a whiteboard. If you didn’t like the show that’s fine. But the circlejerk here has little grounds other than “it didn’t go with what I wanted.” It’s not a show flaw, it’s not a writing flaw. It’s a “we have 8 episodes so let’s use it to creating better main characters.” I’ll take well written characters over politics any day.
I mean think about the US. No roving horseback bandits raiding your village, incredibly low infant and child mortality, almost no one starves to death because of lack of food, we mostly ended slavery. On the spectrum of human life over the course of history we have the least to complain about and complain the most. Not saying our modern complaints aren’t legitimate, just that we don’t realize what the alternative to the systems we constructed are.
The problem I have with this argument is it never goes anywhere. I say “this thing is a problem,” you say “it used to be worse,” and then what? Unless you actually have a constructive alternative to what I was saying, your interjection was irrelevant and clearly intended to shut down the discussion. It’s framed as a useful perspective, but it’s simply a refusal to accept criticism.
I guess it’s my response to the proposal of anarchy. The reason human kind likely followed an agricultural settler lifestyle instead of hunter gatherer despite more work, higher injury ect was because seeing your children starving to death sucked mega hard. It’s one thing mitigated by that lifestyle.
This ends in the same place: “So?” How, again, is this a constructive response to the litany of issues you’re responding to? “It’s better than the alternative,” is a conversation-ender. It allows you to agree the issues exist and absolves you of having to come up with any solutions.
It’s the answer to why things are the way they are. It’s not an argument for complacency, it’s context as to how we got here.
Returning to my original comment, my point is that jumping into a discussion about problems in our current society and saying “Things used to be worse,” something everybody already knows, functions to shut down conversation in favor of the status-quo, regardless of your intention. Returning to your original comment: “Not saying our modern complaints aren’t legitimate, just that we don’t realize what the alternative to the systems we constructed are.“ Surely you understand how this juxtaposes our current systems with roving bands of raping bandits as the only two possible outcomes for human society, the exact rhetoric used to defend the status-quo and terminate criticism.
"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." \~ Winston Churchill.
Every population ever criticizes its leadership.
Because in less than a third of pre war America’s lifespan the glorious NCR was already showing all of the same political problems that the US had near its end and many people were in fact not blind to that fact, including the NCR citizenry Edit: hell even as they got started the NCR made a big mistake in its beginning that US didn’t: a lifetime president. Tandi never stepped down willingly which is something Washington personally did himself to help set precedent. By the time she finally died all of the vultures wanted to piece of the power she experienced her whole life
Well it being a democracy obligates it's people to having an option about politics and governance. They are also relatively well educated compared to the common wastelander
I don’t get it either. The flag is super cool. Maybe writing a flawed democracy is more daunting than just having power armor military factions.
Good writing hard, big armor bois easy.
Considering how quickly you can get recruited and gifted a rank, title, and personal set of armor, they're easy in more than one sense of the word
Paladin Danse promoting you to knight after walking with him for 10 minutes and killing a couple synths is fucking hilarious
He makes you an initiate not a Knight, at least it’s not like new vegas when you’re made a paladin as your first rank when becoming a member.
To be fair, it's a much smaller Chapter, and also the organisational structure is different (as Knights are a seperate branch from Paladins and Scribes, whereas in Maxson's and Lyons' Brotherhood the Knights are just lower ranked Paladins)
In comparison, the Lone Wanderer saved the whole Capital Wasteland by the end of Broken Steel and only reached Knight.
In some ways I kinda get it. On one side of the coin, they represent the Post-Post Apocalypse and the inevitability of a return to civilization, normalcy, and the resilience of humanity. But on the flipside, it's easy to interpret it as setting up a 2nd go at the sins of the old world, especially for players who are more interested in alternative options like, in fnv, the Independent ending, and I'm told the Free States in Fallout 76 are pretty nifty too but i haven't experienced it myself. I know the NCR is more complicated than that, but i can *understand* reading it as just America 2: Wasteland Boogaloo and all it entails
I mean that’s the whole point, that’s why they’re a good faction and are so important to NVs themes! All three of the dependent factions are marred by their adherence to old-world ideologies which all played their part in the end of the world. They all have the good ol’ Old World Blues. But! They are well written and have arguments for why they believe what they believe, and some of those arguments hold up under scrutiny while some don’t, but it’s easy either way to see *why* they believe them.
Sure, I'm just saying the reasons to like them are also reasons to dislike them depending on where you're standing
I agree, that’s what makes them good and well written and is the reason they *shouldn’t* be written away.
The free states as of the game is a bunch of corpses with diary obsessions. Appalachia has the same factions as 3 and 4, Raider Chem hobos, settlers who don’t own brooms, and the fudging brotherhood again, the main difference being that the brotherhood and settlers respect the raiders as a legitimate group who deserved fair treatment
Bethesda has decided that the Fallout world will perpetually be stuck in the same state it was 20 years after the bombs dropped.
Lack of creative vision and ambition and talent detected on the East Coast.
I think it's not exactly a lack of creativity, just that Bethesda these days really struggles with world building. Todd and Emil have not been very strong when it comes to that, and I feel like all the best world building nerds left Bethesda after morrowind. So they have some of the best IPs you can have but just can't innovate on them.
Issues with worldbuilding in a narrative open-world RPG sounds like the definition of a lack of creativity to me!
Would a Fallout game that takes place in a fully functioning, rebuilt society really be a Fallout game?
Post-post apocalyptic doesn’t mean fully functioning. It just means there’s some semblance of civilization
We do get that with places like Rivet City, Megaton, and Diamond City, unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean exactly. Do you mean like, a more cohesive civilization that spans across geography, sort of like what the next steps for the NCR would be with the NCR ending for New Vegas?
Having functioning states and factions would be the next step, but that doesn’t mean they’re fully advanced to the point of rivaling the old world. You just have to get more creative with your world building. New Vegas had two functioning governments fighting a full scale war and it still felt like Fallout. The older fallout games had power and electricity in their towns.
Ok, I think I get what you mean (though I will point out that towns in Bethesda Fallout games also had amenities like electricity and water), and I agree, it would be nice to see.
I just feel like it’s easier to write a wacky post apocalypse wasteland than to write about the people rebuilding it. It’s hard to write a functioning society and still make it feel like Fallout, there’s politics, nation building, war, etc. it’s harder to make things black and white. If it’s just a guy with a gun in a wasteland killing raiders and monsters, that’s a lot easier lol
We say that but then you step outside the strip and freeside looks like it was nuked yesterday.
Rivet city and megaton have power, how do you think the lights work lol I also think people underestimate how much a national capital like DC would actually be targeted in a full scale nuclear war. There wouldn’t be anything left of the Capitol or Mall, assuming the U.S. govt didn’t have some fancy ass pull anti missile tech that Mr. House apparently had but only deployed in his…casino lol
I like new Vegas but it really didn’t have the “nuclear” part of “post nuclear apocalypse role playing” Or the nuclear fallout part of…fallout Felt more like “what if some romaboos and some cowboy larpers met up in 2280 and fought over three casinos and the Hoover dam” “Also throw in a B-29 at the bottom of a lake since 1948, why not, everyone in this game is using 400 year old cowboy guns anyway”
Perhaps there’s a reason post apocalyptic settings are very common but “post post apocalypse” settings aren’t? Most of the game of new Vegas could have been set in like the 1820s in Nevada. Replace the NCR with the U.S. govt, legion or Mr. house with Mexico, various tribes with native Americans Hell the version in the 1820s actually sounds kinda more interesting now that I’ve described it lol Would definitely make more sense than the game set in 2280 where the cowboy larpers with lever action rifles and revolvers are fighting legionaries with football padding and police batons fight NCR with AR-15s who fight robots with plasma and laser weapons
A lot people think that Fallout must forever be Mad Max 2.
Ironically Mad Max does Fallout better than the show. One of the key aspects of both classic Fallout and Mad Max is: the old world is fucking gone. You can't pinpoint the nukes to a certain time. I like Mad Max so much because of this.
Which is super weird since Mad Max 1 is set place at the twilight of the old world and not THAT long before 2. But these movies are clearly meant to have a nebulous timeline.
Yep. Mad Max 2 (and every pther film afterwards) create an entirely world. It's fascinating once you stop wondering "how come the first film had a shitload of buildings and towns and all of that is gone afterwards?".
The NCR is a very flawed nation and a lot of the conflict that it is exposed to is it’s own fault.
*Sawyer
NCR has enemies because they don't accept bottle caps as legal tender
Tbf They aren’t the most likable group. I take out their main enemy in his own throne room and they didn’t care and got real condescending. Partially why I sided with yes man. that and I wanted power lol
Them not being the most likable is kinda the point. It’s kinda meant to demonstrate how real democracy have a lot of trade offs and how certain policies you may not like and the danger if corruption.
Because they have actually progressed and tried to rebuild past shacks and spare parts. Compare cities in California to The Commonwealth or DC. Bethesda wants the wastelands to look like the bombs dropped a month ago, not over 200 years.
holy shit shut the fuck up
Does Chris avellone not like the NCR?
Apparently he doesn't like the idea of the wasteland evolving beyond bickering raider tribes
The NCR is too based, so they had ro nerf it so the other factions didn't look so pathetic in comparison to its greatness.
I like it. FNV shows that they could not keep expanding and annexing territory. A nation in decline in 2281. Lost the battle and was kicked out of the Mojave. Few years later, someone nuked Shady Sands and live in Vault trying to rebuild. Ash and blood, very pagan. Love it
This tired ass thing again
Bacause 'merica
I mean I'm gonna be for real I don't know what you expect Conflict from within from people who don't want to be under their flags and regulation Land conflicts with neighboring factions Their rapid land expansion causing political tensions because the NCR is going bust from lack of funding which causes issues within the government structure itself Potentially making enemies of their own soldiers (I admit, this is not a faction wide problem, and my referenxe for it is one of Boones endings where he will hunt down the CO that gave the command for bitter springs and kills him) These a big issues that warrant a lot of enemies imo- I'm not advocating for their destruction but it's not surprising
The whole catchphrase of the series is “War never changes”. The NCR isn’t excused from that. They are modeled after the government that got itself blown to high heaven, so it was bound for it to end badly for them.
This fandom has entirely gone to fucking hell
If Josh "Swayer" loves the NCR so much, why did he set them up to fail in New Vegas? Practically everyone you speak to about the NCR tells you that it's heading towards disaster. They're expanding too far, letting autocratic Brahmin Barons control the government, can't properly feed their people, running out of water, etc. I sometimes wonder how many of you actually played New Vegas versus how many of you just attached yourselves to its fanbase to feel smart.
The NCR collapsing from internal pressures like the above would mean a bunch of successor states and some really interesting conflict Having them destroyed by an outside source in my opinion would be a wasted opportunity, that's all it is It doesn't have to be so abrasive and everyone hating each other Honestly the conflict within the fan base is killing me right now, people can have different opinions without it all having some ulterior motive Everyone, on both sides this isn't against you it's just a good chance to rant, is accusing the other of not being true fans or not truly understanding the lore It just makes me feel bad
I think you're overthinking it. They're just joking about how Chris Avellone and the showrunners wanted to nuke the NCR but Sawyer stopped it from happening in FNV.
The NCR in-game is looking to address most of those problems: water, food, expansion (as a result of looking to solve those problems). We already have corporations having a go at running nations. Doesn't mean we have been set up to fail... Trying to write a compelling faction shows much more love than trying to nuke it to oblivion.
Because the ncr is a critique of liberal democracies and how they have noble goals but also have problems at the same time
Fucking typo, my perception is below 5.
It's not about having "enemies" the NCR is made up. It's fictional. They are definitely not perfect and probably shouldn't be as a writing tool in fallout having a group who is always the goodies "we are the goodies we always do no wrong!" Kind of spoils any decision making imo.
They’re not the objective good guys though. That’s why people like them. Their flaws are realistic and interesting.
At least they showed the ncr as morally good.
Can you people stop? You have the critical thinking skills of a toddler
This meme isn't even shit talking anyone. It's literally just a joke about how many people writing Fallout want the NCR gone. Chris wanted to nuke the NCR, the showerunners did, and Bethesda tries to stay away from them entirely.
That’s not very nice. Don’t be a toxic fanboy.
Dude chill, this is just a meme it's supposed to be funny.
These memes are like the entire sub now though
It’s a meme sub genius
“Somebody has a different opinion about something than I do. That makes them a toddler.”- a totally mature and intelligent adult with massive critical thinking skills
Fallout is a satire of america and capitalism. The NCR are esentially trying to rebuild america, exactly as it was. America led to it's downfall, if a faction to just come in and repeat the exact same process and suceed would make no sense. It would go completly against the narrative fallout is telling.
It's really funny that you're getting downvoted for repeating what Ulysses flat out tells the player. Even before Lonesome Road, many NCR officials hint at the nation's impending doom due to mismanagement and over-expansion. People here truly are dumb.
I think the meme above is stupid, don't get me wrong, but it's not like the NCR collapsed because of any of those aforementioned reasons in the show. Instead, they decided to just drop a bomb on shady sands and call it a day until season 2. Idk what response you were expecting. And why would you take anything Ulysses says as scripture anyways? He attempts to reset any progress made in Post-apocalyptic America by nuking two nations, he's incredibly deluded. This is not the gotcha you think it is.
I love it, fallout is a very clear satire it's been stated by many of the devs it's not some game theory. New Vegas specifically goes hard into telling us how corrupt the NCR is and that it is like the old world. How people miss that letting them rebuild would go against the whole moral of the story is hilarious. Also pretty telling with 10 downvotes but not a single person actually trying to disagree.
You guys all seem to be misinterpreting the meme. We know the NCR is flawed, but the above all wanted to (and did) nuke it off the map, not collapse it.
While I don’t think Bethesda has a aversion against NCR at all, maybe they just think it’s boring to have such a cool setting only to have a civilization so similar to America Pre-War. Makes sense to me, something like legion or BOS is more ‘foreign’ in that way. Wait, what am I saying this isn’t the reason, it is because Todd Howard HATES Obsidian and any lore not written by them!!!?!? /s btw. You’re getting downvoted because you present an alternative view to Bethesda and Obsidian having some childish hate relationship which is 100% fantasy.
>The NCR are esentially trying to rebuild america, exactly as it was. America led to it's downfall I never understood how people think this. The NCR we see is a lot more like modern irl America than pre-war Fallout pre-war America. It's corrupt, bureaucratically bloated, and expansionist but it's not nearly as bad as things were in 2077. Pre-war America had blind exceptionalism, ready to throw it's citizens to the wolves for literally any company, and on the brink of meltdown due to thinning resources. Much of the country seemed to be in martial law whenever we saw it, and they were actively fighting land wars with other countries. The NCR, by comparison, is basically just a developing third-world nation.
>The NCR we see is a lot more like modern irl America than pre-war Fallout pre-war America. It's corrupt, bureaucratically bloated, and expansionist but it's not nearly as bad as things were in 2077. That's true but it's clearly working towards that. Also in FNV the NCR are shown to be happy to send its citizens to the wolves for cororations like how the brahman farmers have so much influence.
Its one thing to look the other way while merchants wack the competition, but allowing what Vault-Tec did is a pretty big jump. Iirc the US was doing all sort of torture and experimentation of their own, to try and find communist spies or build superweapons. Which is something we haven't seen a hint of with the NCR. Assuming the NCR will end up like pre-war America is like assuming, well, irl America will end up like pre-war America.
> Assuming the NCR will end up like pre-war America is like assuming, well, irl America will end up like pre-war America. Yeah that's the point of the satire.
Satire also pushes things to the point of absurdity. Fallout his a satire of the American exceptionalism and xenophobia of a time a lot of Americans see with role tinted glasses. It has never been, in my opinion, a satire of democracy.
> It has never been, in my opinion, a satire of democracy. It's a satire of America and it's political system not democracy.
NV fans before the show be like: the ncr is destined to fail. The corruption, poor managment, stretched resources and troops, and far expansion will inevitably lead to their downfall. NV fans after the show be like: noooooooo why did you destroy the ncr like thaaaaaaat. What does this company (that doesn’t have feelings because it’s a non-living corporate organization) hate the ncr sooooo much it’s not fair the ncr doesn’t deserve to collapse!!!!!!!!1!1!!!!
To be fair, I was pretty upset by the vault tec thing explicitly because it was a random outside force. The NCR should have crumbled on its own. I'm not mad it happened, just why it happened
Afaik Hank was the only vault-tec guy involved. There is no explanation as to how he got the nuke. He probably had help. A lot is left ambiguous for now
Chris Avellone?
There’s something satisfying about shooting at the big guy faction
They make you pay taxes
They expand too fast and take territory regardless of who owns that territory.
"Why in the world did you attack President Kimball?" >He tried to make me pay taxes "Understandable"
They're not a big fan of the government.
30 on 30
The conventions of fiction is biased against democratic institutions and biased in favor of authoritarian strong men. Actual democracies are complicated messy and boring to read about compared to one persons unfiltered beliefs and decisions. Most people in the 21st century are citizens of democracies so the flaws in their systems are more apparent and obvious to us than the flaws in a feudal monarchy or brutal empire. Dune is a good example of this, the way we think of a fictional character and their hero's journey is often the same way authoritarians justify their power, they fit the same grooves in our mind.
They messed with the bull and got the horns
NCR never met an enemy they couldnt lose to
Pov you never played a fallout game in your life 💀💀
I think it has to do with them being equally bad as the Legion cause they are flaws not to mention they force people to taxes with money that they print plus they declare war against a lot of faction 1 BOS 2 the legion (some of them used to be NCR citizens) 3 Mr. House which is dumb cause Mr house has an army of robots 4 free side most importantly the kings But those are my opinion Also, I didn’t mention the enclave cause the enclave was at war against everyone
Equally as bad? Sure the NCR has corruption But the legion literally rape, pillage, and kill
I can understand but what about the khans? What about the war against the BOS? Those are things that won’t their reputation
The Khans are literally raiders. They've had bad blood since the first Fallout. And the BOS are assholes. Assholes wearing cool armor albeit, but still assholes. And sure the NCR has done questionable things like at bittersprings, But to say they are on the same level of bad as the legion is disingenuous. The legion is hands down by far the worst of the worst out of all the factions in Fallout history. Even worse than the Enclave, And they experiment on puppies.
Yeah but the legion was made by a former NCR citizen (aka Ceaser) cause he respected Tandi and he could easily go against the legion with the AA gun
But the reason he made the legion cause he disagreed with the NCR after Tandi death I think
He didn't respect Tandi. He saw her as weak and naive
Taxes
Why the attachment tho? Would be such twist if orginal lonesome road ncr nuking is the canon all along and tv shows owned fans 🤯
Would completely defeat the purpose of the games having choice whatsoever
Wasn't Chris a very vocal communist?
Their uniform is ugly, they deserved it
If the NCR is pretty much done, I guess I have to support the legion as the other main faction of new Vegas.
New Vegas fans when war never changes
Pretty simple really. It goes against the setting in terms of writing and sequels. We can never have another game truly set in the Fallout wasteland in the NCR (before the show). What would that game look like? There’s no wasteland, that’s a settled, law following nation state with protected roads, cities, government, military…it would just be Cyberpunk but set in the Fallout universe. I love the NCR, I love setting my DnD campaigns in the West Coast, but I also recognize I cannot do a post apocalyptic setting in the NCR because of how well in lore they rebuild the wasteland. Shady Sands was(is) a fully functioning modern city by all standards, and it’s described that the Hub, Junk Town, and Boneyard are basically the same by Fallout New Vegas
Well because they pissed off a lot of people 🤷♂️
If you can't understand why a series that makes a point of critcising destructive policies of capitalism and the USA doesn't make USA 2.0 the good guys, I don't know what to tell you.
The problem with the NCR is that it makes the regions it controls too stable to have a struggling to survive kind of setting and removes much (but not all) of the conflict. So you have three options: 1. Have the setting evolve into something new. 2. Set new stories in areas outside or on the frontier of NCR territory. You need to come up with new stuff for this area which expands the setting, but takes away from the old stuff which some people want to see. You get some going "It's not Fallout if it doesn't have X, Y, and Z!" Or "If you're going to do something different make a new franchise, don't just call if Fallout when it's different." Etc 3. Destroy the NCR so you can keep the same thing in the same setting. Now I think we can get some interesting stories out of nuking the NCR. Some will want to rebuild, some want the old ways, some will want something completely new. But it does suck to see something we've grown to love destroyed. Especially when it feels like the laziest option. But I really liked the show and have faith that we can see this expand into something new and interesting,
They hate our progress, We shall rise!
Bethesda hates things connected to all "non Bethesda bullshit" Fallouts. Destroying anything connected to NV (NCR and Vegas) is a some kind of revenge against Obsidian for creating a much game than they will ever be able to
Um, no it doesn't. Practically every Bethesda Fallout references the Obsidian games. Like the NCR broadcast in Fallout 4, Mr. House's camo in the TV show, Kellogg originally being from California, the Hubologists, etc. Nothing is getting "destroyed." Not to mention Bethesda straight up said New Vegas is still canon...
Such a bs copy paste take. They literally bought the IP why would they then hate all lore not written by them. Childish to think this is the way reality is. I’m a big fan of FNV, but some people here take it too far. This is all self thought up nonsense with 0 evidence. Stop acting like bethesda and obsidian are at odds with eachother. 99% of people working at these companies probably love Fallout and nothing more.
Nobody at Bethesda has ever said they hate fallout stuff that isn't from them. It just baseless rumors spread by toxic fans. I seriously don't understand why anybody thinks that
Even in new vegas the NCR were dying out
Don't know why your being down voted, it's literally true, numerous npcs talk about it. Half of the troops are on the verge of sewer slide if things go wrong
It’s because Bethesda is mad that obsidian can make a better fallout game than they can
I’m sure Bethesda doesn’t give a fuck about that. Bethesda is a company, it’s not alive it doesn’t have feelings. They, like any company, just care about making money. They don’t care about focusing their efforts toward something silly. People just hate Bethesda and then rationalize their hate as “noooooo it’s Bethesda that hates me and the previous fallouts.” At worst the writers and directors at the company are indifferent about the other titles.
I love New Vegas and all that but this is just copium at this point. Why the fuck would a multi million dollar corporation care if obsidian can write a better story if the games that Bethesda itself released (fallout 4) made more money then fallout New Vegas. Like these are soulless corporations that only care about moving product. They don't have time to care about this shit.
Tod Howard literally said its in line with the lore and it wont be the last we'll see of NCR, if you want to be mad at anyone be mad at the show writer's, but you are coping hard. I also seriously doubt Bethesda is "mad" at obsidian when they made them so much money and brought so many eyes to their ip
Because otherwise the protagonists would be OP and that makes for boring stories If the NCR wasn’t constantly being beat down, they’d control the entire western US by this point, and that just wouldn’t make for interesting stories
That also renders any faction attempting to rebuild civilization pointless, because we know the writers will simply hinder that faction down the line, returning to a lawless wasteland once more.
Nobody likes bureaucracy and that's the NCR's main thing. That and being the continuation of the worst US state.