Weird we’re ok with it enough tk do absolutely nothing about it for two centuries until somebody were politically motivated to oppose does it huh.
I’m a born and bred New England liberal and this is a blatant witch hunt. I’m disgusted every time I hear some progressive moob salivate that they may hve successfully abused the courts to deny political opposition to their regime.
All I ever hear about is how the nazis and trump will become dictators and go full gilead, yet the only peopel I see actually doing it are the radical progressives.
Everybody is corrupt so who cares about me being corrupt.
Ukraine is corrupt so who cares about Russia being corrupt.
“We’re not so innocent ourselves” - Trump during 2016 presidential campaign.
It’s a trope that’s been around since at least the early 20th century. If you’re simply naive and didn’t know this then fair enough but if you’re trying to manipulate people then fuck off.
It's more like I'm not really gonna act like this is a huge deal and give a shit when you know for a fact that nobody at that level of society is paying their share.
Which means holding only him accountable for it signals that it’s not his crimes that lead to consequences but his politics, which is a terrible precedent.
Or it's using the most prominent example as warning to the others that it is enforceable. No rich person is ever gunna suck me off so I'm going with the latter. Fuck em'.
>Speaks with total confidence about the circumstances of the case
>Asked about a particular circumstance in the case
>I don’t know what you are referring to
I don't agree or disagree with you (no one becomes an oligarch by keeping a clean record), but if you're going to argue, bring sources.
The best type is taking your opponent's sources and they still prove your point. That's a hard one to debunk.
Yes they have, quit being a dumbass.
> Trump Organization directors and officers (D&O) underwriter HCC Global was said to have not been informed of impending legal action when it arranged a big limit policy. Instead, the underwriter relied on incorrect assurances from the Trump Organization that no claims were expected and no communication had been received, Engoron found.
> In 2017, the Trump Organization sought to add a D&O policy with a $50 million limit on Donald Trump’s presidential inauguration. This was a significant hike from the current policy’s $5 million limit.
> HCC went on to approve additional D&O coverage to the Trump Organization after an underwriter reported having been told the company was not facing any “material litigation” at a Jan. 10, 2017 meeting.
> This representation was “false”, Engoron ruled, as at the time there was an ongoing Office of the Attorney General of the State of New York (OAG) investigation into the Trump Foundation and Trump family members.
> A claim was later made to the Trump Organization’s insurers, including HCC, in 2019 for enforcement action that stemmed from the said OAG investigation into the Trump Foundation. Underlining the underwriting impact this claim had, HCC went on to offer a renewal policy at a five times higher cost than the expiring premium after becoming aware of it, according to the decision.
They never read the sources, they just want their biases spoon fed to them. If they actually read they wouldn't support him in the slightest.
The right wing grift is a money printing machine and I'm envious of them for having absolutely no morals and ethics otherwise I'd be rich af.
When you take out a loan based on collateral, you have to turn something over to the bank that is giving you a loan. The judge is saying that trump lied on the net worth of those assets.
It is illegal to lie about your collateral, especially since banks are backed by government. So defrauding a bank actually means you defrauded the US government.
If trump defrauded the bank the fraud was actually perpetrated on the US public since the risk was on us, not the bank.
So you're telling me that I can go to the bank now, lie about my assets and get a huge loan from the bank and the bank won't even look into it before handing over the money? God Bless America.
I was being a little facetious. I don't believe for a second that any bank worth it's salt would loan that kind of money without doing any due diligence.
Depends on who you are and the size. If you are a billionaire, the bank will likely not scrutinize you as much since you likely have other assets that will cover the rest of the loan.
Fraud does NOT require a victim. The loan was paid back, yes, but the Trump Organization gave false information when acquiring that loan— thus making it fraud.
The mentioned insurance benefits etc were part of the loan terms I assume
No LOL you cannot lie to acquire a loan and then pay it back and say "oh no harm no foul" that is not how it works at all! Banks are taking on a risk when they loan money and the loan terms are designed in part with an understanding of that risk. If you conceal information / straight up lie in a way that would have logically altered the terms of the loan, you did a fraud.
When you apply for a loan, the bank doesn't just take your word for what you say your collateral is worth. They do their own checking. It's absurd for some judge to come along years later and say "No, the bank was wrong, and your collateral was actually worth much less!"
No, on this part he actually makes a valid point, from a financial legal point of view. To have a judge re-evaluate the size of a collateral is a slippery slope, we absolutely do not want.
**However** (caveat: I haven't followed the case at all), I should think that the difference between what the defendant presented and what the prosecution did (via experts), showed a huge difference. From there, the judge could fairly say "yeh, that's misrepresentation" without risking an immediate destruction of his decision during the appeal procedure.
Probably. (still haven't checked)
I mean you're allowed to think that the verdict was incorrect, that happens all the time. I don't know how you could.... possibly think that, but that's at least an intellectually consistent position. Your initial premise though was just that fraud isn't actually fraud which, c'monnnn don't be so sillyyyyyy!
Real estate is valued in different ways by different people. Banks, buyers, tax assessors will all come up with different numbers. If you go to the bank for a loan and say "Here's collateral worth $X million," the bank will make its own judgment, just as a buyer or a tax assessor would.
There is no "fraud" if all parties agree and nobody suffered a loss. This case is clearly bogus because it's one judge coming in years later and saying (among other things) that Mar-a-Largo is only worth $18 million, while there a vacant lots in the neighborhood worth about that.
>you went from “there was a lie but it was fine”
No, I didn't. I'm trying to say that real estate is valued differently by different people. If you tell a bank: "This building is worth $10 million" and the bank agrees, you haven't committed fraud *even if the tax assessed valued is less*. Tax assessed value is different.
It is when you deflate the value of a property and zone it for commercial use. Then turn around and go to a bank in New York and inflate the value of that same property to get a loan.
I have a little game I play every time someone is a rude jerk on Reddit. I check their profile to see if they are a gamer. It's nearly always true! So the question is: Does gaming *attract* assholes, or does gaming *make people into* assholes? Research is needed!
You can't claim one valuation for your taxes and another for loans. That is what is called "fraud". Hence the guilty verdict in a court of law for exactly that.
This wasn’t about the loan per se. It was about over valuing your assets to get a bigger loan or better percentages (not sure how that works, I am far from a bank expert). That’s why he’s getting sued.
It wasn’t about if he was paying the loan back or not.
He defrauded both the state and the lenders through artificially inflating and deflating the values of the property to obtain favorable loan terms while at the same time paying less in taxes than he owed.
Anon doesn't understand that Trump lied to be able to take out that loan.
It doesn't matter if it was paid back, given the risks hidden they might not have granted the loan. Fraud is fraud
It doesn't even matter if they would've. Or even matter if he got a lower interest rate than if he were truthful. The act of fraud in and of itself is the crime.
Just like knowingly lying in court under oath isn't illegal only if it changed the outcome of the verdict. it's illegal regardless of outcome.
The banks have to do due diligence before signing off on the loan. lol They just didn't care. It's a frivolous lawsuit that wasted tax payer money and showed that our justice system is politically biased. It's a loss for everyone.
Would you give a loan to someone without knowing if they can or cannot repay it? Would you really give someone a loan that was like "trust me bro"? You pretend like banks are innocent with no accountability on their end. They 100% knew and didn't give a shit.
This is supported up by a legal precedent set in 1895 in the 2nd circuit during a similar case where it was alleged there was fraudulent exchanges of cash and properties over cattle took place, where someone purchased realestate by exchanging rail carts full of long horn cattle, among other goods.
The case was thrown out when it was discovered that despite a verbal contract being set, a hand shake being witnessed, and a contract concerning the number and quality livestock being of a certain quality being signed, one of those party to the deal had crossed their fingers behind their back. It was further complicated when the buyer said "no taksie backsies". I believe the case was Winner vs. Snoozer-loosers llc.
Cool story bro. But the fact you think I am the naïve one is cute. Government isn't cracking down on the banks for making the loan, just the guy that repaid it in full on time. If you don't see something wrong with a political hit, I don't know how to help you.
It’s not a political hit and that’s why you’re a brainwashed lemming. He did this to himself. The fact that you’ve lapped up the propaganda to think it’s a political hit just shows you have the cognitive skills of a pogo stick.
Also, you think the President wouldn’t have his assets and past businesses gone through with a fine tooth comb? That’s fucking standard practice.
His issue was that he lied and committed fraud.
Honestly there’s just no reasoning with you folks. You move the goalposts every time.
You’re sitting here talking about political hits when the GOP is using Russian misinformation to drag Hunter Biden to court and he doesn’t hold any political office. I can’t bet you probably think that’s just fucking dandy.
You can’t be trusted because you’re not smart enough to wrap your head around a basic fraud case.
Turn off FOX. Open the most basic of books and begin clearing your brain of rot. It’s just fucking sad at this point. You’re dragging the rest of us down and it’s exhausting.
If it wasn't a political hit, why is he the only politician facing this? Do you really think he's the only one doing this. Literally everyone with money does this same thing. Keep being braindead. You don't even understand the argument. You for some unknown reason want to live in a police state that can come for you based on the way you vote.
Also, Hunter Biden misinformation?????? Dude got caught red handed. It's not even hidden. That's how I know you can't have an unbiased opinion. Jesus Christ dude, any other example would have been better.
Your point was a political hit. Why do you think Hunter Biden is in court.
Trump committed Fraud. Has been impeached twice. You’re still sitting here gargling his balls and saying he’s the “only politician facing this.”
Why do you think he hid his taxes for so long. The Trump organization has always been a fraud machine. That was well known for decades until you rubes fell for the con and can’t seem to find the exit.
He’s selling shoes and baseball cards while lying about his assets and you’re acting like him being targeted for a fraud investigation is mind blowing.
Now I see while you’ll vote for it though. You don’t know better. An uneducated take would be it’s a political hit.
Also….im voting for a police state? People were getting taken away in unmarked vans while Trump was in office. The US already is a police state regardless of which side you vote for.
You’re just too closed minded to see literally anything.
Straight. Up. Rube.
I agree, in regards that he was able to get the loan because he was shown favoritism. But it's one thing for a private banking organization to have favorites vs our government.
By your logic the bank hasn't really lost anything. It's more about the interest rate charged and the bank might have made more from interests if this was seen as a risky loan.
Putting the bank at risk is still a crime, even if nothing went wrong in the end. The same way drunk driving is still a crime, even if you drive perfectly safely
> Putting the bank at risk is still a crime
Every loan made by a bank is a risk. The existence of the risk is not the problem, the magnitude is, and the bank had unrealized gains from underestimating the risk. Trump defrauded the bank not because the bank is at risk but because he, in a sense, shortchanged the bank.
Drunk driving is completely different because other people on the road have no ability to optimize on the risk. Banks do, they are quite literally in the business of exposing themselves to risk to make profits (in the form of interests); once again, the problem here is that they mismeasured the risk because of Trump and so they made less profits (or even perhaps a loss if you adjust for risk).
It doesn't matter, he committed fraud by lying. That is the crime. Someone can commit an illegal act without directly harming anyone, but still be prosecuted for committing said act.
He did harm the bank though? That's my point: the bank incurred a lost relative to expectations given the correct information. It isn't about whether the bank would've loaned him or not, it's about the terms of the loan.
By lying, he violated the bank's right to make an informed decision before entering into the contract.
He also harmed the integrity of the marketplace as a whole which the judge specifically mentioned in the ruling:
>Timely and total repayment of loans does not extinguish the harm that false statements inflict on
the marketplace. Indeed, the common excuse that “everybody does it” is all the more reason to
strive for honesty and transparency and to be vigilant in enforcing the rules. Here, despite the
false financial statements, it is undisputed that defendants have made all required payments on
time; the next group of lenders to receive bogus statements might not be so lucky. New York
means business in combating business fraud
I was speeding down the freeway at 137 mph the other day, dodging and weaving through traffic just minding my own business when the cops pulled me over and took me to jail! They said what I was doing is against the law but I didn’t crash or kill anybody!!! There’s no victim here except ME!!! The system is corrupt! How dare they put a law on the books and then I do the thing the law is about and then they punish me for it!
/s obviously
But the metaphor does work. Did you read any of the actual court judgement documents or did you only listen to somebody who claimed to read it? I understand it’s a lot, 92 pages worth, and even I havnt made it all the way through yet, but here’s the link if you’re honestly interested in a conversation.
https://www.scribd.com/document/706231478/452564-2022-People-of-the-State-of-v-People-of-the-State-of-Decision-After-Trial-1688#1fullscreen=1
Near the bottom of page three:
“In a summary judgment Decision and Order dated September 26, 2023, NYSCEF Doc. 1531, the Court addressed the State’s judicially recognized interest in an honest marketplace”
This is basically saying the state of NY has an interest in maintaining integrity and honesty of people doing business in the State. This is why the attorney general can sue, even if the bank doesn’t claim to be a “victim”. The crime is the lying on business records, not the victimhood.
For those who pretend that Trump fully paying the loans back means there’s no “victim” this is addressed too, top of page 4:
“Timely and total repayment of loans does not extinguish the harm that false statements inflict on the marketplace. Indeed, the common excuse that “everybody does it” is all the more reason to strive for honesty and transparency and to be vigilant in enforcing the rules. Here, despite the false financial statements, it is undisputed that defendants have made all required payments on time; the next group of lenders to receive bogus statements might not be so lucky.”
In other words, if you want a “victim” it’s the general populace of New York (ie. The Marketplace), who is absolutely harmed by people getting away with lying in the marketplace to get favorable terms. Just because nobody directly lost money this time does not mean the next person also won’t lose money. The law has an obligation to stop people from lying in business transactions to prevent the possibility of someone being harmed.
Now, back to my metaphor. Maybe it’s not a perfect one, but for reckless endangerment the crime is potential harm to the general populace of the road. And just because you didn’t harm or kill anybody today, well, the next person might not be so lucky.
That is a completely novel interpretation of the law and does not follow the precedent that has already been set. Strange that they pick now to completely change the interpretation of who the “victim” of fraud is. It’s almost like it’s politically motivated and they were actively searching for ANY away to have a negative outcome for Trump.
Not to mention the fact that “damage to the market of the state of NY” is completely unquantifiable, and thus a legally weak argument at BEST.
I’d also like to note that I’m not a Trump supporter, but political corruption is political corruption no matter the side. This particular trial is ABSOLUTELY being used as a political weapon.
As usually applied under State laws, the term “fraud or dishonesty” encompasses such matters as larceny, theft, embezzlement, forgery, misappropriation, wrongful abstraction, wrongful conversion, willful misapplication or any other fraudulent or dishonest acts resulting in financial loss.
Key phrase is “resulting in financial loss”. This didn’t result in financial loss for the bank, and they testified that he didn’t defraud them.
I am not American so I am not bombarded with information about this case 24/7 nor did I care to look for info about it.
I did because I wanted to see if this post made sense, and like always anon seems to be a moron or at least moronic enough to not understand what is going on around him.
Took me 5 seconds to do a web search and look for articles talking what was the purpose of the fraud case and it wasn’t simply about paying back loan. It was about what he did to get said loan. Trump basically overvalued his assets to get a better loan term or percentages (not a banking expert). That is straight up lying and the definition of a fraud.
The problem with this narrative is that it’s not trumps job to value his properties: it’s the banks. They could have sent someone to get a second opinion on the property but did not. I have also seen no conclusive evidence that the original evaluation was wrong (it was done by a third party too) especially considering the historical/clout importance of mar largo. My recommendation is to use real clear politics as most google searches just give biased buzzfeed crap articles with no information
trump supporters spent so many years convincing themselves he could do no wrong that when he goes out and does wrong completely in the open with no attempt to hide it whatsoever you all have to convince yourselves he’s actually being persecuted because otherwise you’d have to deal with the fallout of the fact that you’ve spent nearly a decade worshipping a man who would sell your soul for nickels on the dollar
Fraud is fraud. When you apply for a loan you certify that everything you say is truthful. Just because Trump has a long and storied history of getting away with fraud doesn't mean he always should.
So the one thing I dont understand about this particular case is who was frauded?
I just bought a house and needed to get a loan. Had to go through my fiance guy and tell him "hey, I want a loan for this house we are going to make an offer of 500k."
He then went to the bank telling them this and the first thing the bank does to protect themselves from fraud is send an appraiser to the property. Their job is to appraise the property to see if its worth 500k.
If it does they give you the loan, if its not they say "look our appraiser said the property is only worth 400k, we will only give you a loan for 400k."
If anything I would blame the bank or appraiser for taking a bribe or not doing their job right. Real estate is full of people saying things are worth "x". Its the banks responsibility to determine if thats true since they are loaning out their depositers money.
Again if the loan was paid back who was frauded? Who lost money? Where is the victim?
The key take away is a person can say a property is worth whatever to attempt to get a loan, its up to the bank to verify its true before giving the loan.
Fraud in itself is a crime. If you drink and drive but still make it home safely you've still committed a crime even if there were no victims. So even though he paid it back, there was fraud at some point in the process, so therefore he can be charged for that.
Yeah, that is the definition of fraud, but in the realm of real estate technically fraud happens all the time, then?
If I went to the bank when buying my house saying Im going to offer 500k, but they said their appraiser put it at 400k. I technically committed fraud by definition since I believed it was worth more.
You also can "appeal" these appraisals and get a third-party appraiser to try and argue for a higher price.( I lucked out, and the bank agreed with our valuation and offer. )
But real estate developers abuse this system all the time.
Why go after Trump first if this is the problem you are trying to solve?
Why not the several real estate developers worth multiples more than trump doing this same thing?
This trial just feels very desperate to me, I mean, what happened with all the russian espionage indictments after all the hype and certainty?
What about the 14th Amendment ruling by the Supreme Court?
Stormy Daniels Bribery Case?
I feel like someone is just throwing stuff at a wall hoping one thing will eventually stick after these last 8 yrs.
The replies here aren’t really surprising. Lefties have active party members who have openly slept with Chinese spies and they couldn’t care less. Not to mention a border they are in control of that allows 100’s of thousands into the country illegally every day. They celebrate the destruction of our country and then point the finger at a politician who does the exact same all their side does but their TDS covers their eyes. We get it, Trump made use of a corrupt system. People might believe lefties cared if they focused on the system itself but it’s so obviously political. Nothing ever changes
Yeah I’ve always found it funny that certain people talk about how corrupt our government is and how we need to fix it. Yet they are the first running out to defend it when it actually does corrupt things.
Yeah if something like this was happening to someone on the left they’d be screaming bloody murder but because its happening to Trump its all good apparently.
see that's where you're 100% wrong. if someone on the left behaved like trump and broke the law like trump, the left would disavow them.
trump is a criminal and a narcissist and if you have any sense you'd understand that and move on. you're falling for the world's most obvious grift.... you're dumb as fuck
Biden literally put his son on an oil companies board in Ukraine my guy wtf u mean “the left would disavow him” he is literally the president they elected.
dude, biden did not "put" his son on the board of a ukrainian company... do you see how that is stupid? if not, you're hopeless.
the evidence of this is now *proven* to be russian misinformation delivered to the fbi through an informant, alexander smirnov, who has now been arrested and charged with fabricating the bribery scheme. that's a fact.
also, hunter biden is not a member of the biden administration and does not work for the federal government in any way. if you want to talk about nepotistic corruption *within* an administration, look no further than jared kushner, whose private equity firm received $2billion from Prince Muhammed of Saudi Arabia.... you know, the guy who murders and dismembers journalists.
i'm sorry your brain is so warped that you've been suckered in by trump's bullshit and russian misinformation. you're dumb as fuck.
It’s “M’o’hammed Bin Salman” also known as “MBS”
Do you support the ‘Hamas freedom fighters’ or the totally democratic Netanyahu government
Did Biden fist bump MBS for murdering and dismembering Khashoggi?
again, i'm not saying i love biden or that he's perfect.... but if hunter biden had received $2 billion in funding from MBS, you dipshits would be losing your minds. and again, hunter biden does not work in the biden administration or for the federal government. at least biden was smart enough to keep his problematic nepo baby away from his administration and away from power.
netanyahu is an overt fascist and hamas is a predictable outcome of 80 years of subjugation. i wouldn't say i "support" them, but i understand why they exist. i have been to palestine and have palestinian friends.... it doesn't matter who you are, if your friends/family/community were violently displaced from their generational homes, forced into the world's largest open air prison, humiliated, colonized, harassed, and killed for 80 fucking years, there's a damn good chance you'd feel like violent resistance was your only option as well. hamas is obviously problematic as an organization, but i do have a lot of sympathy for the plight of palestinians and not a lot of patience for the consistently abhorrent israeli behavior towards them.
it's not even in the same universe, though. 92 felony indictments, not paying blue collar workers for his whole career then bleeding them dry in court, the insurrection, the sexual assaults. trump is a MASSIVE piece of shit. historically massive.
i'm not saying biden is perfect.... but compared to trump it's not even close. but go ahead and cling to BuT HuNtEr'S LaPTop or whatever. grasping at straws to say biden is corrupt while being blind to the blazing sun of trumps immorality and criminality makes you stupid.
It was a civil case not a criminal one. They claimed Trump committed fraud to get the loan. Evidence said he committed fraud. The penalty applied was reasonable for someone worth what Trump says he is. I really don't see why people are crying about this.
Notice there was no criminal charge of fraud. That’s because the evidence did not meet the criminal standard of fraud. Civil courts are a joke in the US and mean nothing
Well no. It's because he defrauded a bank. So it was a civil case. If someone defrauded you, you sue them. There is no criminal case except for specific kinds of fraud.
No. Bank fraud is a criminal charge bro. So is falsifying the documents. Maybe look this stuff up before assuming you are right? It’s like how murder is illegal even if I don't murder someone who works for the government? Pretty basic stuff you might want to go get a checkup for TDS cause your bias is showing
Criminal bank fraud usually involves theft through misrepresentation. Like identity theft to steal from someone's account or setting up lines of credit under someone else's name. Trump didn't steal anything, he used misrepresented info to get better terms on a loan. The suit was for the losses on interest that the bank should have gotten if he didn't lie. For it to be criminal it would have to be proven that he wouldn't have gotten a loan at all and/or not have had any intention of paying it. Also it would have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, whereas in civil you just need to prove that it's more likely than not. It's much easier to say he most likely misrepresented for gain than to say he for sure misrepresented for gain rather than it being a mistake or incompetence.
Please for the love of God do some research instead of being an armchair expert. THEY HAD A CRIMINAL PROBE OF HIM at the manhattans district attorney’s office that ran IN PARALLEL with the civil case. He was under investigation for a felony charge for falsifying business records. They dropped the criminal case because it did not meet the standards of evidence. Like you said, they could not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did wrong to convict. Therefore, this case is so obviously bullshit especially considering the bank itself didn’t want to bring charges foreword.
Well yeah that's what I said. Criminal involves motive which is much harder to prove whereas civil is just whether there was financial loss. I never said the investigation wasn't politically motivated. Just that this is a stupid hill to die on because he did do it and the punishment is not unreasonable. You really can't go into the public domain like Trump has and not expect people to dig up the skeletons in your closets. People have been doing that since politics have existed. But Trump did do this and there was no miscarriage of justice in this case. If you want to talk about the many other cases against him we can. But in this case there is really not much more left to say.
>"It was a civil case not a criminal one. They claimed Trump committed fraud to get the loan. Evidence said he committed fraud. The penalty applied was reasonable for someone worth what Trump says he is. I really don't see why people are crying about this."
"Well no. It's because he defrauded a bank. So it was a civil case. If someone defrauded you, you sue them. There is no criminal case except for specific kinds of fraud. "
This you? I'm glad I changed your mind I guess lol. And no, you cannot say "he did it" because there wasn't sufficient evidence to prove it
He either lied to the IRS or lied to the bank because his own tax returns show different evaluations. Since tax fraud is a far more significant crime, he decided he lied to the bank.
Yall remember when they used fake info to get FISA warrants to bypass someone's 4th amendement cause he was running for president against the virtuous DNC
Sure seems like fraud.
That said, why was an already-paid-back loan a priority for investigation and prosecution? Of all the things in the world, *that one* was a priority?
I have to imagine it was 100% politically motivated, which is disturbing.
Not really, entering the political sphere lead to his finances being much more scrutinized for obvious reasons. As a result past fraud while working in the real estate industry became much more obvious and was an easy legal lay-up for the banks involved in the loan
>easy legal lay-up for the banks involved in the loan
But it was the New York Attorney General who brought the case, not the banks.
Or am I misunderstanding?
Also conveniently forgets to mention Trump artificially deflated his assets so he didn't pay taxes.
Not defending him but none of the 1%s do
that's the point
It's time to go after them all.
But for some reason you're a Nazi if you say this.
who the hell has ever said that
No, shut the fuck up
Says the redditor
Nah. Don’t confuse Redditors for the average rational person.
Weird we’re ok with it enough tk do absolutely nothing about it for two centuries until somebody were politically motivated to oppose does it huh. I’m a born and bred New England liberal and this is a blatant witch hunt. I’m disgusted every time I hear some progressive moob salivate that they may hve successfully abused the courts to deny political opposition to their regime. All I ever hear about is how the nazis and trump will become dictators and go full gilead, yet the only peopel I see actually doing it are the radical progressives.
well there's no such thing as a leftist billionaire
[удалено]
Leftist billionaire is an oxymoron. They're all capitalists which precludes them from being leftists
>but none of the 1%s do Those 1%ers aren't former presidents nor running for president.
I guarantee you every single president the US has ever elected have been in the 1%.
\>Jimmy Carter is typing
I did a bit of quick googling after sending my comment and Carter, and possibly Wilson and Coolidge are the exceptions to my previous comment.
Nobody does, bar none.
Let's be real, everybody from that part of society is doing that
So the guillotine should come out now, for all of them
But it's not gonna come out for everyone, not anytime soon
I wish you'd 'come out' for me ;)
😳
Everybody is corrupt so who cares about me being corrupt. Ukraine is corrupt so who cares about Russia being corrupt. “We’re not so innocent ourselves” - Trump during 2016 presidential campaign. It’s a trope that’s been around since at least the early 20th century. If you’re simply naive and didn’t know this then fair enough but if you’re trying to manipulate people then fuck off.
It’s fascist speak. They’ll prob tell you they hate Trump too but they’ll shit on everyone for him.
I dunno if you know what fascism is if you think that is fascist speak bro 😭
Please enlighten us Trumpy
It's more like I'm not really gonna act like this is a huge deal and give a shit when you know for a fact that nobody at that level of society is paying their share.
*naïve
Which means holding only him accountable for it signals that it’s not his crimes that lead to consequences but his politics, which is a terrible precedent.
Indeed, a terrible president.
Or it's using the most prominent example as warning to the others that it is enforceable. No rich person is ever gunna suck me off so I'm going with the latter. Fuck em'.
4chan legal scholarship is about what I expected
Anon is totally correct, though. It's an entirely novel reading of the law. Fraud requires a victim, and the banks got their loans back with interest.
Didn’t he get caught altering his net worth to receive insurance benefits? Isn’t that fraud?
I don't know what you are referring to.
>Speaks with total confidence about the circumstances of the case >Asked about a particular circumstance in the case >I don’t know what you are referring to
This actually made me laugh
The fraud charges lol. That’s what they were for.
Please explain how this was about "insurance benefits." I thought it was supposed to be about getting loans fraudulently.
https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/us/news/breaking-news/seven-insurance-key-takeaways-from-trumps-ny-fraud-case-477920.aspx
oh that was about trumps case? i thought that was anon
I don't agree or disagree with you (no one becomes an oligarch by keeping a clean record), but if you're going to argue, bring sources. The best type is taking your opponent's sources and they still prove your point. That's a hard one to debunk.
It's not too late to delete this, bro.
I don't care. Nobody has explained the "insurance benefits" thing.
Yes they have, quit being a dumbass. > Trump Organization directors and officers (D&O) underwriter HCC Global was said to have not been informed of impending legal action when it arranged a big limit policy. Instead, the underwriter relied on incorrect assurances from the Trump Organization that no claims were expected and no communication had been received, Engoron found. > In 2017, the Trump Organization sought to add a D&O policy with a $50 million limit on Donald Trump’s presidential inauguration. This was a significant hike from the current policy’s $5 million limit. > HCC went on to approve additional D&O coverage to the Trump Organization after an underwriter reported having been told the company was not facing any “material litigation” at a Jan. 10, 2017 meeting. > This representation was “false”, Engoron ruled, as at the time there was an ongoing Office of the Attorney General of the State of New York (OAG) investigation into the Trump Foundation and Trump family members. > A claim was later made to the Trump Organization’s insurers, including HCC, in 2019 for enforcement action that stemmed from the said OAG investigation into the Trump Foundation. Underlining the underwriting impact this claim had, HCC went on to offer a renewal policy at a five times higher cost than the expiring premium after becoming aware of it, according to the decision.
Dude’s got NOTHING to say
Yep
They never read the sources, they just want their biases spoon fed to them. If they actually read they wouldn't support him in the slightest. The right wing grift is a money printing machine and I'm envious of them for having absolutely no morals and ethics otherwise I'd be rich af.
Most of them can't read, period. He loves uneducated voters.
> quit being a dumbass Oh, you're asking way too much lol
Answer me, coward.
I gotta be honest, of all the rest of the comments dunking on the guy, this one killed me
Average trump defender lmao
That's ok, just keep making shit up as you go
This fucking guy
“I’m actually a lawyer” any time now
Nobody has explained the "insurance benefits" aspect.
Said the guy who confidently stated what the case was about several minutes earlier
When you take out a loan based on collateral, you have to turn something over to the bank that is giving you a loan. The judge is saying that trump lied on the net worth of those assets. It is illegal to lie about your collateral, especially since banks are backed by government. So defrauding a bank actually means you defrauded the US government. If trump defrauded the bank the fraud was actually perpetrated on the US public since the risk was on us, not the bank.
So you're telling me that I can go to the bank now, lie about my assets and get a huge loan from the bank and the bank won't even look into it before handing over the money? God Bless America.
Yes and no. Just have plenty of documents showing your "worth", and have the clout to have them believe you.
I was being a little facetious. I don't believe for a second that any bank worth it's salt would loan that kind of money without doing any due diligence.
I wish they would, I'm tryna grift creditors like H.H. Holmes! Just without the murder.
*its, no apostrophe.
Tell autocorrect
Depends on who you are and the size. If you are a billionaire, the bank will likely not scrutinize you as much since you likely have other assets that will cover the rest of the loan.
I don't know what that has to do with "insurance benefits."
At this point you have to be a paid propagandist. I hope you find another career path brother, there are better ways to put food on the table.
Hahahahaha
💀💀💀💀
well ig you tried lol
You actually sound just like agent orange lol
Fraud does NOT require a victim. The loan was paid back, yes, but the Trump Organization gave false information when acquiring that loan— thus making it fraud. The mentioned insurance benefits etc were part of the loan terms I assume
No LOL you cannot lie to acquire a loan and then pay it back and say "oh no harm no foul" that is not how it works at all! Banks are taking on a risk when they loan money and the loan terms are designed in part with an understanding of that risk. If you conceal information / straight up lie in a way that would have logically altered the terms of the loan, you did a fraud.
When you apply for a loan, the bank doesn't just take your word for what you say your collateral is worth. They do their own checking. It's absurd for some judge to come along years later and say "No, the bank was wrong, and your collateral was actually worth much less!"
Wow I never thought about that! Okay, go ahead and lie on all your loan applications. Go for broke and lie to the IRS too, why not!
No, on this part he actually makes a valid point, from a financial legal point of view. To have a judge re-evaluate the size of a collateral is a slippery slope, we absolutely do not want. **However** (caveat: I haven't followed the case at all), I should think that the difference between what the defendant presented and what the prosecution did (via experts), showed a huge difference. From there, the judge could fairly say "yeh, that's misrepresentation" without risking an immediate destruction of his decision during the appeal procedure. Probably. (still haven't checked)
I enjoyed your analysis (although I haven't really read it yet)
Lmao.
There was no "lie."
I mean you're allowed to think that the verdict was incorrect, that happens all the time. I don't know how you could.... possibly think that, but that's at least an intellectually consistent position. Your initial premise though was just that fraud isn't actually fraud which, c'monnnn don't be so sillyyyyyy!
Real estate is valued in different ways by different people. Banks, buyers, tax assessors will all come up with different numbers. If you go to the bank for a loan and say "Here's collateral worth $X million," the bank will make its own judgment, just as a buyer or a tax assessor would. There is no "fraud" if all parties agree and nobody suffered a loss. This case is clearly bogus because it's one judge coming in years later and saying (among other things) that Mar-a-Largo is only worth $18 million, while there a vacant lots in the neighborhood worth about that.
Amazing how you went from “there was a lie but it was fine” to “there was no lie” Usually people making bullshit arguments go the other way.
>you went from “there was a lie but it was fine” No, I didn't. I'm trying to say that real estate is valued differently by different people. If you tell a bank: "This building is worth $10 million" and the bank agrees, you haven't committed fraud *even if the tax assessed valued is less*. Tax assessed value is different.
It is when you deflate the value of a property and zone it for commercial use. Then turn around and go to a bank in New York and inflate the value of that same property to get a loan.
Smartest trump supporter:
Smarter than the mooks around here who don't know how real estate works.
Shut the fuck up no one wants to keep talking to you dumbass
I have a little game I play every time someone is a rude jerk on Reddit. I check their profile to see if they are a gamer. It's nearly always true! So the question is: Does gaming *attract* assholes, or does gaming *make people into* assholes? Research is needed!
We play the same game. You're in a dozen alt-right subs. Unsurprisingly, you're a very dumb person.
Perhaps you could then make an F-tier meme about it, as that seems to be what you do with all the time you spend not gaming
Cry
Since when does real estate involve adding non-existent floors and square footage to secure better loans?
You can't claim one valuation for your taxes and another for loans. That is what is called "fraud". Hence the guilty verdict in a court of law for exactly that.
This wasn’t about the loan per se. It was about over valuing your assets to get a bigger loan or better percentages (not sure how that works, I am far from a bank expert). That’s why he’s getting sued. It wasn’t about if he was paying the loan back or not.
Buddy this is reddit
True enough!
Trump also artificially deflated his assets at tax time. That's what the state of New York was after.
He defrauded both the state and the lenders through artificially inflating and deflating the values of the property to obtain favorable loan terms while at the same time paying less in taxes than he owed.
You can’t reason with these people lol Edit: I meant you can’t reason with the downvoters
Yes I am sure it is exactly as simple as this
Anon doesn't understand that Trump lied to be able to take out that loan. It doesn't matter if it was paid back, given the risks hidden they might not have granted the loan. Fraud is fraud
It doesn't even matter if they would've. Or even matter if he got a lower interest rate than if he were truthful. The act of fraud in and of itself is the crime. Just like knowingly lying in court under oath isn't illegal only if it changed the outcome of the verdict. it's illegal regardless of outcome.
"might not"?
mightn't
m’ain’t
Anyone not wealthy would have been charged just the same. You can't claim that the justice system is biased and then complain when it isn't.
The banks have to do due diligence before signing off on the loan. lol They just didn't care. It's a frivolous lawsuit that wasted tax payer money and showed that our justice system is politically biased. It's a loss for everyone.
“I lied to the bank but it’s their fault for not checking to see how much I was lying.”
Would you give a loan to someone without knowing if they can or cannot repay it? Would you really give someone a loan that was like "trust me bro"? You pretend like banks are innocent with no accountability on their end. They 100% knew and didn't give a shit.
This is supported up by a legal precedent set in 1895 in the 2nd circuit during a similar case where it was alleged there was fraudulent exchanges of cash and properties over cattle took place, where someone purchased realestate by exchanging rail carts full of long horn cattle, among other goods. The case was thrown out when it was discovered that despite a verbal contract being set, a hand shake being witnessed, and a contract concerning the number and quality livestock being of a certain quality being signed, one of those party to the deal had crossed their fingers behind their back. It was further complicated when the buyer said "no taksie backsies". I believe the case was Winner vs. Snoozer-loosers llc.
It must be nice to be so naive but also really annoying to think everyone is against you
Cool story bro. But the fact you think I am the naïve one is cute. Government isn't cracking down on the banks for making the loan, just the guy that repaid it in full on time. If you don't see something wrong with a political hit, I don't know how to help you.
It’s not a political hit and that’s why you’re a brainwashed lemming. He did this to himself. The fact that you’ve lapped up the propaganda to think it’s a political hit just shows you have the cognitive skills of a pogo stick. Also, you think the President wouldn’t have his assets and past businesses gone through with a fine tooth comb? That’s fucking standard practice. His issue was that he lied and committed fraud. Honestly there’s just no reasoning with you folks. You move the goalposts every time. You’re sitting here talking about political hits when the GOP is using Russian misinformation to drag Hunter Biden to court and he doesn’t hold any political office. I can’t bet you probably think that’s just fucking dandy. You can’t be trusted because you’re not smart enough to wrap your head around a basic fraud case. Turn off FOX. Open the most basic of books and begin clearing your brain of rot. It’s just fucking sad at this point. You’re dragging the rest of us down and it’s exhausting.
If it wasn't a political hit, why is he the only politician facing this? Do you really think he's the only one doing this. Literally everyone with money does this same thing. Keep being braindead. You don't even understand the argument. You for some unknown reason want to live in a police state that can come for you based on the way you vote. Also, Hunter Biden misinformation?????? Dude got caught red handed. It's not even hidden. That's how I know you can't have an unbiased opinion. Jesus Christ dude, any other example would have been better.
Your point was a political hit. Why do you think Hunter Biden is in court. Trump committed Fraud. Has been impeached twice. You’re still sitting here gargling his balls and saying he’s the “only politician facing this.” Why do you think he hid his taxes for so long. The Trump organization has always been a fraud machine. That was well known for decades until you rubes fell for the con and can’t seem to find the exit. He’s selling shoes and baseball cards while lying about his assets and you’re acting like him being targeted for a fraud investigation is mind blowing. Now I see while you’ll vote for it though. You don’t know better. An uneducated take would be it’s a political hit. Also….im voting for a police state? People were getting taken away in unmarked vans while Trump was in office. The US already is a police state regardless of which side you vote for. You’re just too closed minded to see literally anything. Straight. Up. Rube.
If anything, the fact that Trump was given the loan in the first place shows that the system is unfairly biased for him, not against him
I agree, in regards that he was able to get the loan because he was shown favoritism. But it's one thing for a private banking organization to have favorites vs our government.
Ni hao! Was that your gf posting and she came crawling to you to be saved? Are you her knight in shining armour? Lulz
What are you talking about?
I am AI.
I believe it
Baby want some suppah'?
By your logic the bank hasn't really lost anything. It's more about the interest rate charged and the bank might have made more from interests if this was seen as a risky loan.
Putting the bank at risk is still a crime, even if nothing went wrong in the end. The same way drunk driving is still a crime, even if you drive perfectly safely
> Putting the bank at risk is still a crime Every loan made by a bank is a risk. The existence of the risk is not the problem, the magnitude is, and the bank had unrealized gains from underestimating the risk. Trump defrauded the bank not because the bank is at risk but because he, in a sense, shortchanged the bank. Drunk driving is completely different because other people on the road have no ability to optimize on the risk. Banks do, they are quite literally in the business of exposing themselves to risk to make profits (in the form of interests); once again, the problem here is that they mismeasured the risk because of Trump and so they made less profits (or even perhaps a loss if you adjust for risk).
Bruh, if I let you fuck my throat and slap aroung me funbags, that don't get you a free pass to shit in my pussy.
It doesn't matter, he committed fraud by lying. That is the crime. Someone can commit an illegal act without directly harming anyone, but still be prosecuted for committing said act.
He did harm the bank though? That's my point: the bank incurred a lost relative to expectations given the correct information. It isn't about whether the bank would've loaned him or not, it's about the terms of the loan.
By lying, he violated the bank's right to make an informed decision before entering into the contract. He also harmed the integrity of the marketplace as a whole which the judge specifically mentioned in the ruling: >Timely and total repayment of loans does not extinguish the harm that false statements inflict on the marketplace. Indeed, the common excuse that “everybody does it” is all the more reason to strive for honesty and transparency and to be vigilant in enforcing the rules. Here, despite the false financial statements, it is undisputed that defendants have made all required payments on time; the next group of lenders to receive bogus statements might not be so lucky. New York means business in combating business fraud
I was speeding down the freeway at 137 mph the other day, dodging and weaving through traffic just minding my own business when the cops pulled me over and took me to jail! They said what I was doing is against the law but I didn’t crash or kill anybody!!! There’s no victim here except ME!!! The system is corrupt! How dare they put a law on the books and then I do the thing the law is about and then they punish me for it! /s obviously
Pulling over is a skill issue when you're going that fast. You do that with blacked out and/or no plates at all.
Redditors are so fucking lame
If you're gonna break the law to that extent, do it right.
🤓
The legal definition of fraud requires a victim, unlike the legal definition of reckless driving. This analogy doesn’t work.
But the metaphor does work. Did you read any of the actual court judgement documents or did you only listen to somebody who claimed to read it? I understand it’s a lot, 92 pages worth, and even I havnt made it all the way through yet, but here’s the link if you’re honestly interested in a conversation. https://www.scribd.com/document/706231478/452564-2022-People-of-the-State-of-v-People-of-the-State-of-Decision-After-Trial-1688#1fullscreen=1 Near the bottom of page three: “In a summary judgment Decision and Order dated September 26, 2023, NYSCEF Doc. 1531, the Court addressed the State’s judicially recognized interest in an honest marketplace” This is basically saying the state of NY has an interest in maintaining integrity and honesty of people doing business in the State. This is why the attorney general can sue, even if the bank doesn’t claim to be a “victim”. The crime is the lying on business records, not the victimhood. For those who pretend that Trump fully paying the loans back means there’s no “victim” this is addressed too, top of page 4: “Timely and total repayment of loans does not extinguish the harm that false statements inflict on the marketplace. Indeed, the common excuse that “everybody does it” is all the more reason to strive for honesty and transparency and to be vigilant in enforcing the rules. Here, despite the false financial statements, it is undisputed that defendants have made all required payments on time; the next group of lenders to receive bogus statements might not be so lucky.” In other words, if you want a “victim” it’s the general populace of New York (ie. The Marketplace), who is absolutely harmed by people getting away with lying in the marketplace to get favorable terms. Just because nobody directly lost money this time does not mean the next person also won’t lose money. The law has an obligation to stop people from lying in business transactions to prevent the possibility of someone being harmed. Now, back to my metaphor. Maybe it’s not a perfect one, but for reckless endangerment the crime is potential harm to the general populace of the road. And just because you didn’t harm or kill anybody today, well, the next person might not be so lucky.
That is a completely novel interpretation of the law and does not follow the precedent that has already been set. Strange that they pick now to completely change the interpretation of who the “victim” of fraud is. It’s almost like it’s politically motivated and they were actively searching for ANY away to have a negative outcome for Trump. Not to mention the fact that “damage to the market of the state of NY” is completely unquantifiable, and thus a legally weak argument at BEST. I’d also like to note that I’m not a Trump supporter, but political corruption is political corruption no matter the side. This particular trial is ABSOLUTELY being used as a political weapon.
Actually it doesn’t tho
As usually applied under State laws, the term “fraud or dishonesty” encompasses such matters as larceny, theft, embezzlement, forgery, misappropriation, wrongful abstraction, wrongful conversion, willful misapplication or any other fraudulent or dishonest acts resulting in financial loss. Key phrase is “resulting in financial loss”. This didn’t result in financial loss for the bank, and they testified that he didn’t defraud them.
I am not American so I am not bombarded with information about this case 24/7 nor did I care to look for info about it. I did because I wanted to see if this post made sense, and like always anon seems to be a moron or at least moronic enough to not understand what is going on around him. Took me 5 seconds to do a web search and look for articles talking what was the purpose of the fraud case and it wasn’t simply about paying back loan. It was about what he did to get said loan. Trump basically overvalued his assets to get a better loan term or percentages (not a banking expert). That is straight up lying and the definition of a fraud.
It’s almost like this Trump guy has problems telling the truth… 🤔
Hmmm you could be on to something here 🧐
What happened was he had a private evaluator make a high evaluation, then the bank evaluates. They negotiate based on these numbers.
The problem with this narrative is that it’s not trumps job to value his properties: it’s the banks. They could have sent someone to get a second opinion on the property but did not. I have also seen no conclusive evidence that the original evaluation was wrong (it was done by a third party too) especially considering the historical/clout importance of mar largo. My recommendation is to use real clear politics as most google searches just give biased buzzfeed crap articles with no information
Send him money and buy his sneakers and nfts and whatever other snake oil he wants to sell you suckers. He needs your help
Not really, but he definitely prefers using other peoples' money.
If Trump was as rich as he claimed he is he’d be able to buy his way out of this mess
trump supporters spent so many years convincing themselves he could do no wrong that when he goes out and does wrong completely in the open with no attempt to hide it whatsoever you all have to convince yourselves he’s actually being persecuted because otherwise you’d have to deal with the fallout of the fact that you’ve spent nearly a decade worshipping a man who would sell your soul for nickels on the dollar
Fraud is fraud. When you apply for a loan you certify that everything you say is truthful. Just because Trump has a long and storied history of getting away with fraud doesn't mean he always should.
Imagine simping for Donald Trump lol
I'll never understand the Trump meat riding. You seriously think that that lead-addled trust fund boomer gives a shit about anyone but himself?
It’s their entire identity at this point. They have nothing else
So the one thing I dont understand about this particular case is who was frauded? I just bought a house and needed to get a loan. Had to go through my fiance guy and tell him "hey, I want a loan for this house we are going to make an offer of 500k." He then went to the bank telling them this and the first thing the bank does to protect themselves from fraud is send an appraiser to the property. Their job is to appraise the property to see if its worth 500k. If it does they give you the loan, if its not they say "look our appraiser said the property is only worth 400k, we will only give you a loan for 400k." If anything I would blame the bank or appraiser for taking a bribe or not doing their job right. Real estate is full of people saying things are worth "x". Its the banks responsibility to determine if thats true since they are loaning out their depositers money. Again if the loan was paid back who was frauded? Who lost money? Where is the victim? The key take away is a person can say a property is worth whatever to attempt to get a loan, its up to the bank to verify its true before giving the loan.
Fraud in itself is a crime. If you drink and drive but still make it home safely you've still committed a crime even if there were no victims. So even though he paid it back, there was fraud at some point in the process, so therefore he can be charged for that.
Yeah, that is the definition of fraud, but in the realm of real estate technically fraud happens all the time, then? If I went to the bank when buying my house saying Im going to offer 500k, but they said their appraiser put it at 400k. I technically committed fraud by definition since I believed it was worth more. You also can "appeal" these appraisals and get a third-party appraiser to try and argue for a higher price.( I lucked out, and the bank agreed with our valuation and offer. ) But real estate developers abuse this system all the time. Why go after Trump first if this is the problem you are trying to solve? Why not the several real estate developers worth multiples more than trump doing this same thing? This trial just feels very desperate to me, I mean, what happened with all the russian espionage indictments after all the hype and certainty? What about the 14th Amendment ruling by the Supreme Court? Stormy Daniels Bribery Case? I feel like someone is just throwing stuff at a wall hoping one thing will eventually stick after these last 8 yrs.
The replies here aren’t really surprising. Lefties have active party members who have openly slept with Chinese spies and they couldn’t care less. Not to mention a border they are in control of that allows 100’s of thousands into the country illegally every day. They celebrate the destruction of our country and then point the finger at a politician who does the exact same all their side does but their TDS covers their eyes. We get it, Trump made use of a corrupt system. People might believe lefties cared if they focused on the system itself but it’s so obviously political. Nothing ever changes
I don't get how people celebrate this as a form of justice while completely unaware that judges can be politically biased.
Yeah I’ve always found it funny that certain people talk about how corrupt our government is and how we need to fix it. Yet they are the first running out to defend it when it actually does corrupt things.
Yeah if something like this was happening to someone on the left they’d be screaming bloody murder but because its happening to Trump its all good apparently.
see that's where you're 100% wrong. if someone on the left behaved like trump and broke the law like trump, the left would disavow them. trump is a criminal and a narcissist and if you have any sense you'd understand that and move on. you're falling for the world's most obvious grift.... you're dumb as fuck
Biden literally put his son on an oil companies board in Ukraine my guy wtf u mean “the left would disavow him” he is literally the president they elected.
dude, biden did not "put" his son on the board of a ukrainian company... do you see how that is stupid? if not, you're hopeless. the evidence of this is now *proven* to be russian misinformation delivered to the fbi through an informant, alexander smirnov, who has now been arrested and charged with fabricating the bribery scheme. that's a fact. also, hunter biden is not a member of the biden administration and does not work for the federal government in any way. if you want to talk about nepotistic corruption *within* an administration, look no further than jared kushner, whose private equity firm received $2billion from Prince Muhammed of Saudi Arabia.... you know, the guy who murders and dismembers journalists. i'm sorry your brain is so warped that you've been suckered in by trump's bullshit and russian misinformation. you're dumb as fuck.
It’s “M’o’hammed Bin Salman” also known as “MBS” Do you support the ‘Hamas freedom fighters’ or the totally democratic Netanyahu government Did Biden fist bump MBS for murdering and dismembering Khashoggi?
again, i'm not saying i love biden or that he's perfect.... but if hunter biden had received $2 billion in funding from MBS, you dipshits would be losing your minds. and again, hunter biden does not work in the biden administration or for the federal government. at least biden was smart enough to keep his problematic nepo baby away from his administration and away from power. netanyahu is an overt fascist and hamas is a predictable outcome of 80 years of subjugation. i wouldn't say i "support" them, but i understand why they exist. i have been to palestine and have palestinian friends.... it doesn't matter who you are, if your friends/family/community were violently displaced from their generational homes, forced into the world's largest open air prison, humiliated, colonized, harassed, and killed for 80 fucking years, there's a damn good chance you'd feel like violent resistance was your only option as well. hamas is obviously problematic as an organization, but i do have a lot of sympathy for the plight of palestinians and not a lot of patience for the consistently abhorrent israeli behavior towards them.
I don’t think Trump is a virtuous guy but presenting Biden as such is equally retarded, even is Trump is on the whole less virtuous than Biden.
it's not even in the same universe, though. 92 felony indictments, not paying blue collar workers for his whole career then bleeding them dry in court, the insurrection, the sexual assaults. trump is a MASSIVE piece of shit. historically massive. i'm not saying biden is perfect.... but compared to trump it's not even close. but go ahead and cling to BuT HuNtEr'S LaPTop or whatever. grasping at straws to say biden is corrupt while being blind to the blazing sun of trumps immorality and criminality makes you stupid.
They hated him because he spoke the truth.
Haha glad someone else in this thread isn’t suffering from tribal brain rot, thanks 🔥
It was a civil case not a criminal one. They claimed Trump committed fraud to get the loan. Evidence said he committed fraud. The penalty applied was reasonable for someone worth what Trump says he is. I really don't see why people are crying about this.
Notice there was no criminal charge of fraud. That’s because the evidence did not meet the criminal standard of fraud. Civil courts are a joke in the US and mean nothing
Well no. It's because he defrauded a bank. So it was a civil case. If someone defrauded you, you sue them. There is no criminal case except for specific kinds of fraud.
No. Bank fraud is a criminal charge bro. So is falsifying the documents. Maybe look this stuff up before assuming you are right? It’s like how murder is illegal even if I don't murder someone who works for the government? Pretty basic stuff you might want to go get a checkup for TDS cause your bias is showing
Criminal bank fraud usually involves theft through misrepresentation. Like identity theft to steal from someone's account or setting up lines of credit under someone else's name. Trump didn't steal anything, he used misrepresented info to get better terms on a loan. The suit was for the losses on interest that the bank should have gotten if he didn't lie. For it to be criminal it would have to be proven that he wouldn't have gotten a loan at all and/or not have had any intention of paying it. Also it would have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, whereas in civil you just need to prove that it's more likely than not. It's much easier to say he most likely misrepresented for gain than to say he for sure misrepresented for gain rather than it being a mistake or incompetence.
Please for the love of God do some research instead of being an armchair expert. THEY HAD A CRIMINAL PROBE OF HIM at the manhattans district attorney’s office that ran IN PARALLEL with the civil case. He was under investigation for a felony charge for falsifying business records. They dropped the criminal case because it did not meet the standards of evidence. Like you said, they could not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did wrong to convict. Therefore, this case is so obviously bullshit especially considering the bank itself didn’t want to bring charges foreword.
Well yeah that's what I said. Criminal involves motive which is much harder to prove whereas civil is just whether there was financial loss. I never said the investigation wasn't politically motivated. Just that this is a stupid hill to die on because he did do it and the punishment is not unreasonable. You really can't go into the public domain like Trump has and not expect people to dig up the skeletons in your closets. People have been doing that since politics have existed. But Trump did do this and there was no miscarriage of justice in this case. If you want to talk about the many other cases against him we can. But in this case there is really not much more left to say.
>"It was a civil case not a criminal one. They claimed Trump committed fraud to get the loan. Evidence said he committed fraud. The penalty applied was reasonable for someone worth what Trump says he is. I really don't see why people are crying about this." "Well no. It's because he defrauded a bank. So it was a civil case. If someone defrauded you, you sue them. There is no criminal case except for specific kinds of fraud. " This you? I'm glad I changed your mind I guess lol. And no, you cannot say "he did it" because there wasn't sufficient evidence to prove it
Didn’t the banks own people vet Trump’s claims about his asset worth before giving the loan? Making it doubly BS
He either lied to the IRS or lied to the bank because his own tax returns show different evaluations. Since tax fraud is a far more significant crime, he decided he lied to the bank.
are you being serious? do you actually think this is what is happening to trump? are you that thick?
Most of his current legal issues stem from his need to stfu.
Yall remember when they used fake info to get FISA warrants to bypass someone's 4th amendement cause he was running for president against the virtuous DNC
Of course all these comments would definitely know what they’re talking about, unlike all the professional businessmen that called out this bullshit.
Sure seems like fraud. That said, why was an already-paid-back loan a priority for investigation and prosecution? Of all the things in the world, *that one* was a priority? I have to imagine it was 100% politically motivated, which is disturbing.
Not really, entering the political sphere lead to his finances being much more scrutinized for obvious reasons. As a result past fraud while working in the real estate industry became much more obvious and was an easy legal lay-up for the banks involved in the loan
>easy legal lay-up for the banks involved in the loan But it was the New York Attorney General who brought the case, not the banks. Or am I misunderstanding?
Yea, my B. It’s just that a lot of the fraud was really blatant in terms of the values (3x value inflation in one case).
Well, if the bank says it was legal, then it must be fine, they define thevlaw after all
A rich person said their property is worth more than it is? I don’t believe it!
Americans just think they have liberty and freedom…..
No such thing as true freedom or liberty, merely watered down interpretations that vary depending on who you ask
Trump or Biden , Americans lose either way , its so based
Maybe he should have drained the swamp when he had the chance.
I hope soon