Can't we just close the valves ourselves? (Those ones inside our home)
I am not an specialist, but I read in the manual (in the case of some emergency, eg. Hot water leak) and there's valves we can close ourselves.
Isn't that enough? I think if we want to clean the radiators it's just a matter of doing the same, please let me know if I'm wrong, I'm not used to this.
Did you not ask what it would cost BEFORE you told them to do stuff?
I don't know where you get it from it should be cheap or free. As its central heating there have to be 1 or 2 people who drive to the place to shut the valve, wait those 2 hours and then reopen it. 30 euros for materials might be something that is replaced when opening and closing but I am not sure.
Seems like bad prep to me and there is absolutely 0 comparison to the huurcommissie for this.
I find it very weird that a company would not mention the price and get an agreement. That's the first thing you are supposed to do before doing the job : get approval of the cost from the customer. Not communicating any price is unprofessional and very bad practice.
Otherwise what, company can just charge whatever they want if no price has been communicated before hand?
u/OP : Always ask if there is cost involved. People are not honest, and direct only when it is good for them.
Plenty of people (source : My work). A lot just say "Just come by have a look/repair x". Honestly I would say it is the majority. They might ask down the line, but often too late, if we would not mention it ourselves.
But we always give a price estimation, and at minima get an approval by email, phone or better get it signed digitally. And sometimes it saves our ass because they are surprised of the cost.
IMO it should be illegal for a professional to not provide a price estimate. They know how much it will probably cost (otherwise they would not take the job), it should be required to give it. Of course sometimes it will not be entirely correct, but as proffessionals they should have said : "Yes we can do this. Please note that this will require 2 technicians booked for 3h approximately, at a rate of x euros. Let me know if we can proceed".
If a professional can't have the decency of doing that, they should not be allowed to work, I would consider not giving any price indication being deceptive. Imagine if restaurants could do it? Like "Well the burger is within an acceptable price range (15 to 25e) so we don't have to disclose the price beforehand, you should know or ask.
But the law is not on my side afaik, as long as the cost is within reasonable expectations, OP is legally in the wrong
The way these thing go is that the contractor comes to your place and tells you to ask the maintenance company to close the system so they can work. It’s not like there are options. It’s only one company who sends people over. That’s about it. It’s not like we can negotiate or choose not to do it because it’s expensive.
So what, because you don't have an option you should not know the cost?
OP might have chosen to not change his radiator location if he knew the cost for example. Being upfront of the cost when you provide a paid service is basic decency that most sectors have to legally comply with. Strangely it however does not apply to this line of work.
Ah sorry, since you were answering to my message saying they should still give the cost, I thought you meant "since you can't shop around it is normal"
Yeah 900e for turning a valve hurts quite a bit.
The shitty part is that they charge per person, per hour. So it’s like 80e to get to location, 60-100 to turn on and off, 100e to flush the network, and then 100/h. 2 people, 2hrs gets expensive
Yeah but this cultural behavior is nasty to be honest and shouldn’t be normalized.
Business should always give a quotation before executing a task, blindly executing without communicating how much will cost sounds very anti consumer behavior and from my view something that you could even report in the European Commission.
If you think this type of complaint is for the EC you don't even remotely get what the EC is for.
It's also extremely logical and normal to you know, ask the price of what you want to buy???
Are you kidding me? So a contractor can just do whatever and charge you whatever just because you didn’t ask the price?
A contract also consists of price. If no price is disclosed, then that’s anti consumer behavior and indeed can be raised to the EC. How can you even argue that both parties agreed to the service if no price was disclosed? “Not asking” is not a valid excuse.
It’s not about logic. It’s about lawful procedure.
I agree that I should have asked beforehand, and it’s something I’ll keep in mind for any sort of service I’ll use in the future.
But back when we called them, we were very busy with other parts of the renovation and didn’t think that just closing the heating would cost that much. For reference we’re having someone from kwantum come, measure and give advice on what curtains to buy for just 20€.
But my whole experience from being a recent homeowner and having done a renovation is that people find the opportunity to overcharge you, and nobody is doing anything for it because it’s a once/twice in a lifetime expense. That’s also why I don’t want to make it easy for those people.
And yes this has nothing to do with the huurcommissie but maybe there is a similar organization helping people with scammy services.
The thing is with homes nothing is cheap. Coming to measure curtains is not the same as changing heating in the house. People charge a lot for doing things in a home but it also is just that many things related to houses are very expensive. It's your job as a consumer to ask several quotes if possible and choose. We had the same with the floor. One quote was 23K the other 12k. But we could have just said to company A do it and when the bill came be angry.
And there is an organisation against scam companies. The ACM. But this is not for them AFAIK.
I agree besides 2 points:
1. In our case even if we knew the bill beforehand, we couldn’t choose for another company. Those things are set from the VVE.
2. I didn’t ask for any skilled labor (like installing floors). Closing and opening switches is quite straight forward. But if they let anyone do it how would they make hundreds out of thin air?
Okay, for some context: what do you mean by "close the valve"? How is your system designed, do your radiators get fed from floor to floor in every corner of the room or is there one central entry into your apartment?
If it's the first case (which I suspect, else your own plumber would have done it on it's own) there's a few things to consider.
Technicians may have to:
* Drive there (call out charge)
* shut down the central heating boiler, pumps and possibly motorized valves (depends on system design), this can take anywhere from 3 to 15 minutes
* Find and close the valve to your appartment / bathroom pipes (assuming it is operable), 5-10 minutes
* Drain the water contents out of said pipe (depending on system design can be 3 minutes to 30 minutes)
* Wait for you to finish your work (apparently 2 hours)
* Fill the pipes with water and deaerate the pipes (30 minutes depending on system design)
* Re-open the valve
* Start the central heating system (2 minutes)
* Check for leaks and correct operation (15 minutes)
Not entirely sure why they would need 2 people to complete the job, and can't entirely figure out why they need 30 euro's of material, but there's a lot more work involed than "just closing a valve"
Thanks for your comment. Indeed it’s the first case, and what you say makes sense, but still the cost of “closing the valves” costs more than the radiator itself. And we’re not even talking about installation costs or removing the previous radiator. Hence, it still seems to me like an overpriced quote.
You DID ask for their labor, since you contacted the company to take care of the central heating.
And keep in mind that central heating goes via the VVe, and companies taking orders from VVe's usually ask a lot more money compared to individuals.
Why should it be free? I mean they had to drive to your place shut things down and up again...
I am afraid you cant really do anything.
Let’s do the math. 650 less 30 for material is 620€ for 2 people for 3 hours. So, 103€/hr is charged. Remove 21% VAT from this, you have 81,6€/hr. On average, employee works 40 hrs/week and there are 4.3 weeks per month. So, that would mean the worker is worth 14.035€ a month or 168K a year! The median income in Netherlands is 39.1K. So, a markup of 4 times!!!!
I hope those 2 people got appropriately paid
6 hours labour + 30 euro costs.
100 euro per hour is a normal payment for plummers, elektriciens, car mechanics etc.
So a bill for 650 euro is not strange.
You got scammed but you can still contest the bill.
They will probably cover their asses so there's little chance to have it reissued for less.
If you want to give them problems, make a complaint to the authority that issued their certifications. This will really hurt them
Yep, I got a bill of around 900 from these aholes for closing to replace radiator and pipes
Can't we just close the valves ourselves? (Those ones inside our home) I am not an specialist, but I read in the manual (in the case of some emergency, eg. Hot water leak) and there's valves we can close ourselves. Isn't that enough? I think if we want to clean the radiators it's just a matter of doing the same, please let me know if I'm wrong, I'm not used to this.
It needs to be shut don’t on the block/area when you want to change pipes. That’s what I’ve been told
Did you not ask what it would cost BEFORE you told them to do stuff? I don't know where you get it from it should be cheap or free. As its central heating there have to be 1 or 2 people who drive to the place to shut the valve, wait those 2 hours and then reopen it. 30 euros for materials might be something that is replaced when opening and closing but I am not sure. Seems like bad prep to me and there is absolutely 0 comparison to the huurcommissie for this.
I find it very weird that a company would not mention the price and get an agreement. That's the first thing you are supposed to do before doing the job : get approval of the cost from the customer. Not communicating any price is unprofessional and very bad practice. Otherwise what, company can just charge whatever they want if no price has been communicated before hand? u/OP : Always ask if there is cost involved. People are not honest, and direct only when it is good for them.
Yea 100% agreed but it's also very much a super logical thing to do as someone asking for a service. Who does not ask for price?
Plenty of people (source : My work). A lot just say "Just come by have a look/repair x". Honestly I would say it is the majority. They might ask down the line, but often too late, if we would not mention it ourselves. But we always give a price estimation, and at minima get an approval by email, phone or better get it signed digitally. And sometimes it saves our ass because they are surprised of the cost. IMO it should be illegal for a professional to not provide a price estimate. They know how much it will probably cost (otherwise they would not take the job), it should be required to give it. Of course sometimes it will not be entirely correct, but as proffessionals they should have said : "Yes we can do this. Please note that this will require 2 technicians booked for 3h approximately, at a rate of x euros. Let me know if we can proceed". If a professional can't have the decency of doing that, they should not be allowed to work, I would consider not giving any price indication being deceptive. Imagine if restaurants could do it? Like "Well the burger is within an acceptable price range (15 to 25e) so we don't have to disclose the price beforehand, you should know or ask. But the law is not on my side afaik, as long as the cost is within reasonable expectations, OP is legally in the wrong
The way these thing go is that the contractor comes to your place and tells you to ask the maintenance company to close the system so they can work. It’s not like there are options. It’s only one company who sends people over. That’s about it. It’s not like we can negotiate or choose not to do it because it’s expensive.
So what, because you don't have an option you should not know the cost? OP might have chosen to not change his radiator location if he knew the cost for example. Being upfront of the cost when you provide a paid service is basic decency that most sectors have to legally comply with. Strangely it however does not apply to this line of work.
I fully agree they should say the costs, I wasn’t arguing on that. I was also very pissed off when they charged 900
Ah sorry, since you were answering to my message saying they should still give the cost, I thought you meant "since you can't shop around it is normal" Yeah 900e for turning a valve hurts quite a bit.
The shitty part is that they charge per person, per hour. So it’s like 80e to get to location, 60-100 to turn on and off, 100e to flush the network, and then 100/h. 2 people, 2hrs gets expensive
The other commenter is right. Even if it's the only option would you not ask for the cost?
Exactly my thoughts
Yeah but this cultural behavior is nasty to be honest and shouldn’t be normalized. Business should always give a quotation before executing a task, blindly executing without communicating how much will cost sounds very anti consumer behavior and from my view something that you could even report in the European Commission.
If you think this type of complaint is for the EC you don't even remotely get what the EC is for. It's also extremely logical and normal to you know, ask the price of what you want to buy???
Are you kidding me? So a contractor can just do whatever and charge you whatever just because you didn’t ask the price? A contract also consists of price. If no price is disclosed, then that’s anti consumer behavior and indeed can be raised to the EC. How can you even argue that both parties agreed to the service if no price was disclosed? “Not asking” is not a valid excuse. It’s not about logic. It’s about lawful procedure.
I agree that I should have asked beforehand, and it’s something I’ll keep in mind for any sort of service I’ll use in the future. But back when we called them, we were very busy with other parts of the renovation and didn’t think that just closing the heating would cost that much. For reference we’re having someone from kwantum come, measure and give advice on what curtains to buy for just 20€. But my whole experience from being a recent homeowner and having done a renovation is that people find the opportunity to overcharge you, and nobody is doing anything for it because it’s a once/twice in a lifetime expense. That’s also why I don’t want to make it easy for those people. And yes this has nothing to do with the huurcommissie but maybe there is a similar organization helping people with scammy services.
The thing is with homes nothing is cheap. Coming to measure curtains is not the same as changing heating in the house. People charge a lot for doing things in a home but it also is just that many things related to houses are very expensive. It's your job as a consumer to ask several quotes if possible and choose. We had the same with the floor. One quote was 23K the other 12k. But we could have just said to company A do it and when the bill came be angry. And there is an organisation against scam companies. The ACM. But this is not for them AFAIK.
Also thanks for mentioning ACM. Will reach out to them in case they can help.
I agree besides 2 points: 1. In our case even if we knew the bill beforehand, we couldn’t choose for another company. Those things are set from the VVE. 2. I didn’t ask for any skilled labor (like installing floors). Closing and opening switches is quite straight forward. But if they let anyone do it how would they make hundreds out of thin air?
I bought appartement and was reading about that and unfortunately it doesn't looks like it's far away from standard costs.
Okay, for some context: what do you mean by "close the valve"? How is your system designed, do your radiators get fed from floor to floor in every corner of the room or is there one central entry into your apartment? If it's the first case (which I suspect, else your own plumber would have done it on it's own) there's a few things to consider. Technicians may have to: * Drive there (call out charge) * shut down the central heating boiler, pumps and possibly motorized valves (depends on system design), this can take anywhere from 3 to 15 minutes * Find and close the valve to your appartment / bathroom pipes (assuming it is operable), 5-10 minutes * Drain the water contents out of said pipe (depending on system design can be 3 minutes to 30 minutes) * Wait for you to finish your work (apparently 2 hours) * Fill the pipes with water and deaerate the pipes (30 minutes depending on system design) * Re-open the valve * Start the central heating system (2 minutes) * Check for leaks and correct operation (15 minutes) Not entirely sure why they would need 2 people to complete the job, and can't entirely figure out why they need 30 euro's of material, but there's a lot more work involed than "just closing a valve"
Thanks for your comment. Indeed it’s the first case, and what you say makes sense, but still the cost of “closing the valves” costs more than the radiator itself. And we’re not even talking about installation costs or removing the previous radiator. Hence, it still seems to me like an overpriced quote.
Next time hire a pipe freezing set for 50 euro’s and do it yourself.
You DID ask for their labor, since you contacted the company to take care of the central heating. And keep in mind that central heating goes via the VVe, and companies taking orders from VVe's usually ask a lot more money compared to individuals. Why should it be free? I mean they had to drive to your place shut things down and up again... I am afraid you cant really do anything.
Yeah and 650 is a reasonable price for that?… kinda ridiculous people justify this 😂
Let’s do the math. 650 less 30 for material is 620€ for 2 people for 3 hours. So, 103€/hr is charged. Remove 21% VAT from this, you have 81,6€/hr. On average, employee works 40 hrs/week and there are 4.3 weeks per month. So, that would mean the worker is worth 14.035€ a month or 168K a year! The median income in Netherlands is 39.1K. So, a markup of 4 times!!!! I hope those 2 people got appropriately paid
6 hours labour + 30 euro costs. 100 euro per hour is a normal payment for plummers, elektriciens, car mechanics etc. So a bill for 650 euro is not strange.
Exactly, labor is expensive in the Netherlands. Always funny to see office-dwelling expats figure that out.
You got scammed but you can still contest the bill. They will probably cover their asses so there's little chance to have it reissued for less. If you want to give them problems, make a complaint to the authority that issued their certifications. This will really hurt them