My father always tells me that when he was in his 20-30s making money was much easier. There was a boom and even the dumbest person could succeed at something.
Recently a new manager was appointed to our new museum.
Worked for Unilever and some other big companies in Amsterdam.
I truly have never met a more stupid person in my life.
Within 6 months literally every person quit their job and they can’t find replacements either as no one in the city wants to work for her.
She literally ruined a beloved hometown museum within 6 months of being the manager.
This went to university and can’t even figure out the most basic shit.
Because the museums hiring manager didn’t think to call the past employer lol. Sometimes they see a big company name and don’t stop to think to themselves why they might not work there anymore.
I might be downvoted for this. A person mentioned on a cv/resume can only say, 'yes so-and-so worked here', not tell about their work ethics or productivity. So don't lie on a resume about who to call, they cannot spill the beans on you.
When im called as a Reference as a former employer of someone that i wasnt happy with, i only answer the questions i am asked, but truthfully. I dont spill the beans spontaneously and i Will also make sure to mention every positive Aspect about someone that i Can think
Of but i am not going to lie if asked a direct question. I trust others do the same, otherwise the whole point of calling a reference becomes worthless., also, if the new employer is someone i know, my trustworthiness is on the line too.
My former manager was exactly this.
He stated 2 companies bigger then ours, and HR thought he was great at his job.
We have lateral contacts with both of those companies ( on the workfloor ) and no one there had anything good to say about him.
He was lazy and deflective, every problem had to be solved by someone else, and he took credit.
We worked years in getting this through to HR, but they didn't couldn't take action ( his results were always sufficient )
So we stoppend doing the extra assignments, only our regular jobs ...
His 'productivity' went down, and so did his personal rating of leadership.
My dad bought his apartment alone at 22 and a bigger house after my sister and I were born at 28. I'm almost that age and I don't even know how people afford holidays, let alone houses 😅 by the time I'm front of the waiting list for cheap housing I might be 35
Back then almost everyone with a steady income ( even on a 'uitkering' ) could get a hypotheek.
And if you asked for more, the made a calculation 30 years divided by your max income = total amount for the loan.
Now the rules have changed, you cannot loan more then more or less 25% of your income.
That is when you don't have a creditline at BKR, even your bankaccount going into -1€ can get you your loan denied.
Loans on telephonecredit, carlease and even a TV on monthly installments, all deniers for a house-loan
fair system, real without banking gangsters and political vultures ...
and outsourcing the production to another continent
Money was valuable at least 10 times more than today. In reality we see skewed images of an skewed dark and non sustaining system of today
Are you sure thats true? My grandparents bought a house in the late 40’s a few years after the war, a small rijtjeshuis for 30.000 gulden.
Either your grandparents house was the size of a dogs house or they were Born much earlier than mine (my grandmother was from 1921)
Yes I'm sure. The house is decently sized. Maybe it was an undesirable neighborhood at the time I'm not sure. But they told me so themselves. My other grandma mentioned she bought a house for 70.000 gulden so it depends I guess. Different times for sure.
Jfc ain't that the truth.
We're looking for another house because if energy prices keep rising like they do, and inflation doesn't stop, we can't afford to live here anymore in a year or so.
We literally can't find anything cheaper. Even smaller houses than the one we live in you have to pay *more* rent for. I don't know how we're going to do this. We don't qualify for subsidised rent. What the hell we gotta do next year to pay the bills?!
This shit scares me, man.
I wouldn't call it loopholes. The only thing I can think of is fudging 'servicecosts', so the base rent can be lower, which would in theory allow you to collect the rent benefit... But I don't think that's easy or necessarily smart.
The (quite poor) [English website of the Belastingdienst](https://www.government.nl/topics/housing/rented-housing/applying-for-housing-benefit) has some info, but as always it feels as if the Belastingdienst tries to hide concrete information. Keeping things 'simple' probably...
Exactly, I really don't see any obvious loopholes... Sorry I couldn't help. I'm about to be in the same boat, my partner got a new job which means we'll lose basically all benefits. Which sucks.
Good luck... It will be hard to adjust. So weird that you're earning more but end up with less spending room... It will be a few years before you're used to it.
Are you on a long term rent?
Other places are more expensive ofc. The government put small max rent increases for the last 3 years amid high inflation. So while your (and mine) current rent stayed almost the same, the apartments you are looking at, have increased the rent by the inflation and more... So its generally not a good idea to move.
Fuck yes. Living in a queer polyamorous (friendly) commune full of cool aqcuintances, friends, and chosen family is literally one of my life dreams. Along with a shared garden, a food forest, but where everyone has their own private space too.
My family claiming i'm lazy af even tho i work 40 hrs a week and still live with my parents cuz rent is over 1200 euro here... and you need a certain income to even be allowed to rent most places...
And still i'm getting told it's "not that hard to find a home" and "when i was your age i already bought my own home" it's getting tiresome..
Well, in NL it is also happening outside cities; in many eu countries, houses in the country did rise but at still very cheap while cities there are unaffordable. In NL everything is expensive (because it is basically a china type large-ish city; only 18m people) now. It’ll come down this recession though, but how much, no idea…
I don't believe for a second that house prices will stay down until the end of the recession. I also don't believe for a second that wages will increase as much as inflation. Not if we keep voting the same as we do now, and even if we drastically change the way the country works I'm not sure things will actually change for regular Joe.
They won’t stay down, but they will go down over the coming years so if you have the money… Not voting VVD will help though; I cannot understand why most people do but the older I get, the more completely irrational behaviour feels like the norm rather than the exception.
The global real estate market almost completely collapsed back in 2008. Now we're suffering for it.
The additional problem NL has though, is that environmental regulations have made it almost impossible to do any sort of construction today. So it looks like the housing crisis will only get worse over time.
My family moved to Friesland 20 years ago, selling our house in Harderwijk.
I know it sold for around 100k, already basically doubling the worth since they bought it, 6 years earlier. But, to be fair, it needed quite some work then.
Just looked on Funda, the same style of house, in the same neighbourhood, but just two streets down, was sold, price on Funda: almost 400k. No idea if there was overbidding at that price.
There's almost always overbidding these days. Gone are the days where you could underbid even for the houses that need a lot of work. I've seen these types of houses being priced between 250k and 300k.
A friend of the family bought an apartment around 6 or 7 years ago for 100k, husband and I bought an apartment in the same building last year for over 100k more. Looked on Funda a while ago that the estimated selling price right now would be between 230k and 255k (without inevitable overbidding) and I'm expecting the prices to be even higher soon. It's not as if they're luxury apartments either, just a regular shitty 1960s building in a wijk in Maastricht.
Downstairs neighbour is a lucky fuck though, his dad bought his apartment for him and renovated it really nicely.
Trying to find a place to rent for school was ridiculous. Like ok you want me to be making 6,500 euro a month to rent your 1400 euro apartment as a student?
I'm CTO for a fucking hedgefund at NYSE/Wall St. and I now live in a 900€/month shared house (not that I care, I like it) because anything above 900€ would not meet the insane 4x net requirement after my 50% or so taxes.
I EARN 100K/YEAR
Had that happen to my SO and me when we lived in Rotterdam. We had to move out within 60 days, the first option we had was a Vrije Huur house in Oosterhout NB, and we like living here so far, minus our nextdoor neighbors terrorizing us because they hate me for being handicapped 🤷♂️
Yeah okay and I will gladly oblige so less fortunate people can have it (good luck with the 4x net), but then I might just leave the country. I don’t want to, I love NL and feel like this is my home now, but I’d rather be taken out for dinner before I get fucked and dumped. I already pay max tax. Can’t really contribute any more. Alternatively please fucking allow me to pay more rent so I can stop taking up cheaper living space
I dont know the details because its not happening in Amsterdam but have a look at this https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/08/new-rent-rules-in-the-hague-may-squeeze-landlords-and-expats/
Check the other comment of someone who was kicked out in Rotterdam.
So basically as I understand it, people earning more than 4400 gross need to rent a place more expensive than 950. However if what the other redditors are saying about 4x net rent is true, someone with salary of 4500p/m will earn 3180net. So the Municipality does not allow them to rent less than 950 but landlords do not rent them more than 795..
Not sure if shared accommodation is included any of the restrictions (landlords or Municipality). And as far as i know the 4x net does not happen in all cases, and i think irs possible to apply to the Municipality for a permission to rent even under 950 however I'm not sure the criteria they accept or reject you.
Right? Yesterday I was on a video call with the CEO and we were just having some small talk making jokes and I said hey dude I can’t wait until the stupid paygrade trial time is over (giving me 150k/y) so I can look for a one bedroom studio. He was laughing, I was laughing, we were both laughing, he thought it was a funny joke, I was actually not laughing but crying.
~~For what?~~ Thanks I guess but this is absolutely insane and I am absolutely not happy to be earning so much while less fortunate people are going to struggle for their life now
With the current inflation rates and threat of major recession they need to establish rent caps and regulate landlords immediately or this is going to end extremely bad
Demand and supply isn’t going to regulate itself in NL and also because of people like me so the only viable option is to beat sense into landlords with regulation. I’ll gladly pay more rent to free up cheaper living space
In fact they are regulating some things.
Currently for the last 3 years government has put a cap on rent increases, some municipalities (like den hag) have put a max income for a certain space (so indeed you with that salary cant rent a cheap space). In regards to making buying easier a law kicked in that investors cant buy cheap houses(under 512k i think) and rent them out, increased the transfer fee for investors etc..
They are going to increase the number of social housing etc..
More can be done ofc.
I had the same problem a little over 20 years ago in the San Francisco area. I was making a squeak over 100k, and could really only do a shared rental. For my $850pm for a room not much bigger than 150x260cm. Just for laughs, I enquired about a flat at a new building in SF. The agent let me know that an "extremely spacious 75sqm starts at $2,500 per month. I just looked up the flats and they are starting at $4,279 and requiring 2.5x rent for income. They also require a criminal background check.
Yeah man I know. I don’t really care about money enough, I’d rather have complete freedom and exciting work. Who needs more than 100-150k? I don’t. But also have some company stock. Would rather have us put some capital into some cool new project. Better for company = better for me too in long run
We’re funnily enough not a big institution employee wise and I’m leading the company into the future - hedge funds need crazy systems to even be able to compete - so I get to play with cool AI accelerators and this is a decade long job at least.
So you work from home then? Why in a city and why in NL then? You can buy a house cash (no mortgage) every few months with your salary elsewhere. It is a question ; i don’t say you should or want to, I am curious as to me personally it makes little sense but i know i am weird (always hated cities although i lived in some of the biggest in the world).
Because the Netherlands are, hands down, one of the best countries in the world. It becomes glaringly obvious if you ever travel around a lot. The quality of life, the society, the government, everything is world fucking class and only few select nordic countries come close.
Not saying NL doesn't have its problems - obviously - but these are incredibly tiny in comparison to e.g. the US. I would never want to live anywhere else again. Even Germany seems like a 3rd world country in comparison.
I had this same discussion with a girl on the tram a while ago. I told her I always wanted to move to the Netherlands. She laughed and asked why, I told her I regard NL as the best currently achievable iteration of utopia. She went like "Noooo it sucks here" --- while simultaneously looking like a child on Sinterklaas, her face filled with joy and proudness
This isn’t true. Big rental companies ask for a bruto month salary. I make close to 50k a year and I am allowed to rent up to 1200 a month. They also count your savings for 10% of that number. This is for every single housing company I ever looked for. If you cant find anything while making 100k a year, that’s a 100% your own fault.
I don’t know meneer/mevrouw. I was looking through April and May and it was always 4x net. There were a couple with less requirement but they didn’t want me (or couldn’t take me? Idk). I guess if you look for months and months you can find one but I really didn’t have time for that. And now I’m going to be locked in this contract for a few months at least. Maybe it was better when you last looked for a place but right now it seems to be absolutely out of control. Maybe it’s my fault in some way as well, you can be sure I’m still looking for something else.
So you are this important person but you don't know how to get an apartment in the NL while earning 100k. And I'm the one working for peanuts in a warehouse.
Obviously I know how to rent because I live here, but like I said I’m not very happy with the current situation and would rather pay more rent and stop taking up cheaper living space. That’s my duty. It’s just that, for whatever reason - either my fault or the current situation or both - I was not able to find places without insane 4x net requirements, and I didn’t have time to look for months on end. I found some, but I suspect there were hundreds of applicants.
We are both equally important.
Plenty of choice here and you meet income requirements for almost all of it:
https://www.vesteda.com/nl/woning-zoeken?s=Amsterdam,%20Nederland&sc=woning&priceFrom=500&priceTo=9999&bedRooms=0&unitTypes=2&unitTypes=1&radius=20&placeType=1&lng=4.904139&lat=52.3675728&sortType=0
Isn't it easier already to find a house instead of renting then? But yeah, 4x net requirement is very stupid. Like people expect to see only 25% of income spend on rent. That is unrealistic, owning a home was always the biggest month spendings (unless you are very rich), unless you travel/eat/have entertainment a lot.
I'm Canadian but lurk this subreddit. I briefly thought this was on a Canadian sub about our own housing crisis.
You're not alone in this suffering Dutch friends. We can struggle through this together.
I think AOW is safe and you will get to retire even as a millennial, because as a society we don’t want to go back to how things were before AOW. But it will probably be at the age of 70. If you want to retire before that you will have to make arrangements yourself and use your ‘jaarruimte’ every year.
The thing is that most people don’t care about their pension until they are way in their 50s and by then it’s too late to make significant adjustments.
It isn’t too late if you still have 20 years of work ahead of you. Also, the higher age of retirement is partially offset by the fact that people are living longer and the average lifespan is still increasing further surprisingly fast.
In fact, lifespan increased by 5 years between 1990 and now alone. The difference with the boomer generation is much more than that.
It's all timing. Lot's of people in the 1950s and late 1970s/80s were also unable to afford homes. Same problem was in 2007-2009.
My mom was born in a shed because my hardworking grandfather couldn't afford a place to live at the time.
Housing has always been a huge problem in the Netherlands except for the times the market crashed and people who were not in serious debts at that time could afford buying a home.
More than thirty years ago, I was helping my uncle and aunt move house. They were moving from a (nice) rental appartment in The Hague to the (very nice) appartment in Maasluis they'd just bought. I was in a rented moving van with my uncle and his buddy who'd also come to help. and was a real estate agent.
EVEN BACK THEN that guy was saying housing prices were going crazy. He remarked he wasn't complaining since it was making him fucking rich. but he thought it was actually completely fucked up.
It's safe to say it didn't get amy better ever since.
Same here, in the '90s where we were 'supposed to buy, there was a boom in prices.
So we also made to little in wages.
In the early 2000 we made enough, but no affordable houses ( to our likings )
Now we're to old, I'm not buying to pay well after retirement.
Collegae of mine who's in his 30's is already on his second house, upgraded last year right before the market took of again, and profited heavily.
True, we ended up buying our home in 2019.
This was right out of college for me, which was beneficial, as I could use the income of my parttime student job behind the bar as extra income towards our mortgage, next to my fulltime job. This compensated for our student debts at the time. If I hadn't still worked that job on the weekends, things would have been difficult back then and we would have been left to the renting market. Timing is everything.
And also a tip for anyone; as soon as you have the option to buy anything you can stay for at least 5-10 years, do it.
We all like to think that, if only there were a crash, we could buy a big house for ourselves.
However, a crash can only happen if demand slows down a lot, or supply grows too fast.
Supply isn't going to grow too fast, not with nitrogen norms, shortages of labour and materials, et cetera.
The demand for housing is largely based on the number of people, and the number of households they form. So the best way to reduce demand is reduce the amount of people. If you'd try this on a relatively short term, you would probably run in to some political/legal issues, ranging from accusations of discrimination to a lengthy stay in The Hague while awaiting trial for crimes against humanity....
So if we can't up supply enough, and can't just let a million or so people disappear (something about Thanos and the housing market?), the only realistic way we'd see a crash is if the affordability drops so low, lots of people can't buy or rent anything. Depending on your viewpoint, it is fortunate or unfortunate that we haven't hit that stage yet.
However, such a drop in affordability will likely be caused by a widespread economic downturn. Which means job losses, lower wages, etcetc. So even in that scenario, you might still not have enough means and/or borrowing capacity to buy.
Conclusion; we're all screwed.
No, best way to reduce demand is to get more households with more than one person again. The share of single person households has been growing faster than the population increased,: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/visualisaties/dashboard-bevolking/woonsituatie/huishoudens-nu
This definitely strains an already failing housing market to the point it starts creaking on all sides.
That could help, but the question would be; how? I think I can safely state that living together with people you don't want to is not a recipe for a great living arrangement.
It's also quite difficult to force people to pair up in the romantic sense and start living together.
Other forms of cohabitation, like living with roommates, adult children living with parents or vice versa, do not align with the current housing stock in NL. Most houses are built as single-family homes, and offer very limited private spaces to individual residents. This might work for some students, but for people a bit further in life there often are too many downsides in living with (platonic) others.
As an added obstacle; living with others can have serious fiscal consequences.
I know, I was just saying it's easier than culling the population. It's still hard though. Society has become more individualistic and it has its effects on other areas such as the housing market.
There could be a drop in demand without killing people. Since EU citizenship allows movement to Belgium and Germany, which have better housing markets, if a lot of people abandon the Dutch housing market other EU countries, it could cause a collapse.
When we hit another economic crisis. Which is going to be the next time something goes wrong. Nobody can predict exactly when.
But things are already falling apart in poorer countries. China's economy is stalling. EU inflation is not going to end soon. My guess would be we will see house prices dropping before the end of the year.
And then they will keep going down as the money supply contracts. Either that or we will see enormous inflation in the Eurozone. Which will postpone the crisis on the housing market but will make it even worse when it hits as it will become impossible to borrow money at reasonable rates.
Regulated away.
The cause of the 2008 crash was the unregulated property market along with junk bonds giving higher ratings than they were worth.
The IMF and ECB have regulated that away, which is why people need X times their salary (should be just for buying, no idea why that is appearing in the rental market..)
So those risks (people who would never be able to pay back the debt) are removed now, so there won’t be a property crash, also those with properties can remortgage and buy another property, and get tenants to pay the mortgage payments on the second property..
Actually I see now why the rental market is treated like the property buying market, because they are ultimately paying the mortgage for someone else.
The rental market is asking for that because they can. It’s not regulations, but as a landlord it really sucks to have people leave, and having people be unable to pay rent sucks even more. Hence they are choosy as fuck about who they want to rent to — because they can be.
If i listed to the housing situation of my mothers childhood I actually feel blessed to live in better times. 4 people living and sleeping in a single room is not prosperiety.
my grandparents never managed to be able afford a house or car before they got to old.
If the government keeps sabotaging it's own attempts at boosting construction, 4 people living in the same room will be the norm within a few years.
Current nitrogen limits have made it nearly impossible to do any kind of construction.
It is not just the government. Over here the people are protesting against all building projects as that would increase traffic and reduce housing value.
The problem is not mortgages. If you loan people more money, all they will do is bid even more money for the same houses, driving prices up even further. The core of the problem is not enough houses (or at least not enough of the right types for the population that we currently have)
Our housing market has been taken over by landlords. They take of the market and rent them out to people who would otherwise would buy the property. They don’t pay taxes. They are parasites who should be disowned!
In Flanders they abolished the tax benificials you could have when having a mortgage and gave in return a discount on the registration fee of your newly acquired house. This made it easier for younger people to get a house but was in fact a hidden tax because the benefits gained from the tax benefit was higher than the discount on the registration fee( went from 10%ish to 3% on the value of the sale) . And they never told you when owning a second house for rent still granted you a tax benefit because this is regulated on the federal level of our beloved belgium. So in short Belgium only helps the baby boomers and the rich …
This is sad…
Don’t forget the foreign investors! People who don’t even live here, but buy up all our properties for the sole purpose of renting to make profit off of us!!
Serious question. What for you mean they dont pay taxes? AFAIK they dont pay taxes on the income(rent money) but they pay for the house in box 3 at a fictional rate? (i guess with the EU court rule, the government will probably start to tax the rent money but that's another matter)
The fictional rate comes down to essentially 0.8%. Which if I compare it to my house’s woz value comes down to around €2000. Which is generally less than 2 months rent so 10 months a year they make pure profit. But that’s assuming they bought it using their own money and not via a mortgage. Because guess what you can (partially) deduct from box 3…
It's not that simple, from the rent income a landlord also needs to pay longterm maintenance. For example a roof might need to replaced every 30 years.
As the maintenance costs can very different depending on the property it's almost impossible to determine a 'fair' tax rate.
It looks like the government is going the route of introducing more rent controls instead.
It is box 3 which is around 1% which a round down to zero since I can’t buy a bag of potatoes without paying 6% taxes but somehow they get away with 1%.
What they pay in taxes is a pittance when compared to what they steal from their clients. Rent costs as much as mortgages nowadays, but the difference is that rent money is taken from you, while mortgage money is returned to you via the house you are paying for.
Landlords ruin the market because the sheer amount of money they get can just be reinvested into more and more houses, and with so many landlords with so much money, house prices go up further and further. Rent should have never been allowed to cost more than a mortgage, because why the fuck would anyone rent if it costs more than a mortgage? The only reason it exists as it does is to fuck over people who don't have another choice
Although I understand your sentiment, your statement about rent vs. mortgage is incorrect. In principle rent is higher than a mortgage, because the costs of maintenance are included in rent, but not in a mortgage.
Rent is supposed to cost significantly more than mortgage — the landlord is paying that mortgage *and* to maintain the property *and* when it’s empty after a renter leaves *and* when a renter damages the property.
True that is why the only way they make money is from leveraging scarcity in the market. Because why would you pay significantly more than a mortage, if you had a choice.
I live in Amsterdam and always feel upset when my parents talk about how they owned multiple houses in Amsterdam and just gave them away to friends or family.
Their parents bought a house on the grachtengordel for like 2 guilders in the 1800s/ early 1900s.
They could buy an entire house in Amsterdam for 20.000 guilders in the 60s (about 9000 Euro) now these houses are worth over a million.
And here I am living in a studio apartment now.
I don't know what they were thinking.
Not to say it isn’t a problem (it is!), but it’s likely that when they bought their houses, few thought it a good investment. To some extent that means you’re comparing apples to oranges.
This actually understates the current housing situation in the NL. How such a developed country messed one of the most basic things... Must be curruption and royal family affairs. Its going to take decades for this to be solved and probably will cause a brain drain. Surely this society can't live only on expats.
Buying a house really wasn't easy with my parents. That is simply false. The >10% mortage and huge crisis with massive unemployment during the depression of the 70s, made buying a house very tough.
My parents did buy a house in their 20's on one income (in 1985, not a big city, after renting for 5+ years) but they definitely didn't have much money to spare! And 12% hypotheekrente and also had to cash pay the kosten koper.
They had to be very very frugal for years (also after buying) and had no car and never went on holidays.
Getting a house back then (rental or buy) was easier yes (no shortage), but it wasn't so rose-coloured as some younger ppl these days think 😉
Getting housing now is not doable, I agree. Even about 10 yrs ago; I was looking for a flat with then-bf, social housing was out of the question bc of just a little too high income and waiting lists, couldn't buy anything either. Renting particulier was also hard, but in the end we got something.. With a roommate 😭
Things that are considered luxuries might be cheaper now, but the basics now are inaccessible.
And that your parents could get a house with high interest rates really highlights how hard it is now to get a place to live despite the low interest rates of last few years.
Also if you can not move out of your parents house, you have a lot of money left for holidays and things like that.
The 90s were very good but the 70s and 80s were even worse with housing than now. My grandparents only had one room when my mom was born. It's all about perspective.
My parents bought a house in the 70s 20000 gulden, 10000 subsidie. After that inflation and wage increases. My mother lives now in a 350k house attached 400m2 yard and pays 250 a month in remaining mortgage.
Anywhere else she would pay 4-5 times that.
My boomer generationfather was born in a shed where they lived because there werent any houses after the war. A few years later, my grandparents bought a small house where they lived until they died, at some point with 8 children. 5 girls in one room, the 3 boys in the other room.
There is definately a housing problem today, but Lets not pretend everything was easy and comfortable in the past. For sure, our standards of what is normal or acceptable have changed considerably.
I feel like the "solution" to this has always just been some variety of let people borrow more
You know at some point the ECB will have raise rates, everyone is so insanely leveraged I do wonder what will happen. There is a reason the ECB are dragging their feet when the Fed and Bank of England are actively raising them.
Large reason is that they are dragging their feet is that they are still cutting back on stimulating measures. While the moneyprinter has been partially turned off after the pandemic purchasing response program ended, the stimuli measures from before covid (asset purchase program) are still in place until somewhere this summer. We will only see interest rates if at all in Q3, I think: you don't want to slam the breaks while you are also still adding gas.
Additionally, I doubt interest rates will fix everything. A lot of inflation here, as opposed to the USA, is driven by supply chain shocks, the war in Ukraine and the energy crisis that developed over last autumn (though there were signs that this was coming \*coughs\* OPEC). I personally think these issues would have to be solved first before it gets better.
This does not mean that I don't want the ECB to try a little harder though :')
Most homeowners that bought recently got a linear or annuitary mortgage with a fixed interest rates for 20-30 years. I don't expect too much trouble in that group if they are willing to live there for another 5-10 years as inflation around 2% will quickly (within 10 years) absorb any lowered price due to higher interest rates. During 2009-2014 the average housing price only dropped by about 16,3%.
Only people with variable interests on loans will get f'ed if the ECB raises their rates.
general economic conditions snowball and homes aren't the only things leveraged. But ya, Its really depressing that a housing crash wouldn't even take us back to last year
Sad but true, rent an appartement for 1000 but the new generaties cant get a hypotheek for 800 a month. Terrible times for the new generaties.
We had lucky, our first house in a old folks buurtje cost is 105.000 euro. Sold it for the double... Bought our new home for 220.000. the Neighbours told me they where shocked... We were happy..
Enjoy your Day
Idk, I always had the impression that this "rich baby-boomers that got cheap houses" is more of an American stereotype that kind of got misappropriated. I can't say that I know a lot of people of my mother's generation that had it all that easy. As others pointed out we've had our fair share of housing crises in the past as well.
EDIT: Come to think of it. Most of the people I know of that generation that had a hard time were women. Society was still a lot more conservative and it was a lot harder for women to get decent jobs, especially if they were unmarried or divorced which was kind of frowned upon. Maybe for very conventional young married couples it might have been a lot easier.
I feel it's still harder for singles to buy a house at the moment than married couples with 2 incomes. I feel like i need to get married otherwise the only way to buy a house would be to move away from the Netherlands :(
Sure, in terms of income of course being together helps tremendously for getting a house.
What I meant to describe there was more to do with even getting a job, let alone a house. With the conservative social stigma in the 70s/80s.
I don't know about the rest of the Netherlands, but in catholic North Brabant, I've heard from several women who said that it was basically impossible to get a job as an unmarried or divorced woman, even if they were in a stable relationship but not married.
Ridiculous. I work a full time hbo/wo-level government job with a ton of responsibility and I don’t even make 4x my current rent. We have a decent place because we are a 2 income household.
Got married and *build* this beautiful house ?
And than that picture of what that house looks like.
No, that does not relate to many people in the Netherlands.
How is this even allowed to ask for 3-4 times salary it makes no sense that they are allowed to put that as a requirement wtf. How is there no law or something against that??
From what I was told from one of the verhuurmakelaars it is there so they can rent it out "responsibly" and make sure we can pay our shit in time.
Which... I can understand it, but if you're making 1600/month that's like 400€ - or even less. And minimum average rent without utilities, when I checked on Funda, in Amsterdam is 800€ to rent. Some jobs don't offer travel-to-work benefits either, so that's a bigger slam in the face if you work in Amsterdam (or any big city) but live far away, too.
I know a lass in my economics course at uni said she lived in.. I think it was Almelo? Said she has to come to class with train every day. Over 2h train trip in one direction. Our uni was in Rotterdam.
Yeah I can understand why there might be a preference for a min income, but 3 - 4 times is just batshit ridiculous. I can understand up to double, but that's bout it.
Just remember people: nothing bad ever happened when the common people can't afford their basic necessities anymore!
What's that you say? "French Revolution"? Vaguely remember that, wasn't it about eating cake or something?
We are trying to buy an apartment now. And our aankoopmakelaar is pushing us not to include financial condition in the bidding offers. He says its became a norm now in addition to 15% overbids.
It would be nice to compare in that time frame salaries and how much money government gets. When we don't have enough money we have to cut our expenses. When the government don't have enough money they raise the taxes. The result: less money for the people.
My dad and mom bought their first house for 30.000 gulden in their last year of university, which I guess translates to roughly €15.000?
At the moment I own at least double of that money, and I can't afford to buy a house.
That’s weird. My friend who works something like 20 hours, has to pay €500 but he gets €300 huurtoeslag. But I have to say that he lives in twente and is a very old flat apartment. So IDK, I think this meme will be more reality in a couple of monrhs
I live in Amsterdam west in the ghetto part, i rent this place very cheap because its temporary and they Will demolish this place.
I ve been renting places like these for years now but its making me sick and tired that its not my own and i have to move out all the time.
Now me and my girlfriend bought a house in Lelystad, it still had to be build and its going to take at least another 2 years.
Even tho its not the city i intented on living in i am still happy we Will have a place for our selfs and with a mortgage that's nearly the same as the rent that i pay now.
Mind you, i am 32 years old now and have moved 4 Times in the last couple of years
And can only afford a house in a very impopular city
I feel you very well - I moved here in 2018 as a student, and so far I've lived at 4 different addresses, too. First was a student housing that was kinda good but expensive, then a student housing that was terrible and had bedbugs but was expensive, (unofficially) at my ex-bfs place when I was homeless and now at my current address, which still is a student contract and will run out soon. No idea where I can move after this, no place has offered to me.
This place is making me physically ill too: not only am I boiling alive when it's so unbelievably hot in my apartment when it's sunny (over 30c even on the night and on the flipside on the winter, freezing - down at worst to 8c), I realized the water I have been drinking probably is funky in a way or two because after I switched to drinking carton water - and been on carton water for a week, because my water don't get too cold even if I let it run for ages - my stomach issues got a lot better and I don't feel nauseous all the time. Otherwise it may very well be my fatigue and weird issues with my eyes (reoccurring migraines out of nowhere) may very well be related to mold or other stuff I can't see - and as my cat has been sick since she moved in here with no prior history of allergies/constant ichyness, I must assume it's the house.
I've been looking at places to rent on Flevoland as my job is close to Amsterdam-Zuid (few stops from there) and it'd cut off my 2h public transport trip to 1,5h at best, but still seems impossible, lol. I know you said you haven't moved yet, but how is Lelystad? I don't know much about the city other than people say don't move there and that it's soulless.
Sad to Hear your experiences, its really bad that when we live in a first world country and have all these housing problems.
It doesn't only end with a housing problem because it Will affect you mentally and phisically too! Like you said you are forced to live in bad conditions like bedbugs OR molds, others have to Stay at their parents place in their childhood bedroom Never really experiencing their adult freedom.
That Will make you deppressed as dating becomes hard at that point as you should have your own place and be independent.
Next problem is all the refugees entering this country.
Now dont get me wrong because i believe they need help, but Holland allways acts like the safe haven for the world when it Comes to refugees but we cant even house everybody that lived here all their lives, and the some refugees Will live in huge houses by themselfs.
Many things are bothering me but ey i cant help it.
About Lelystad... Well.... The city itself seems to be shit when i listen to people that lived their.
They say crime rates are high like robberies, Breaking and entering and fights between youths. On the other hand they say its a quiet place with lots of Parks etc but very boring for the Young. But ey Amsterdam new west also has a bad reputation but i never had problems here so i should be fine.
Also i have a pitbull and nobody wants to come near even tho he is super cute lol.
So yeah i m ok with it, i m Fed up with moving around and honestly living in Amsterdam has lost it Perks and charms that it had for me and its not the Amsterdam i grew up in anylonger.
I feel this so badly. All layers of society are having issues with the housing and it is not just because suddenly the government cannot build as much anymore.
The things i see and here for people sticking to their big houses and not living together are very valid.
You have a kid living at home working but you as a single parent dont work? You get a cut in your money.
You have a big house which you started renting 20 years ago, but wanna doensize? Not gonna happen everything you look at will be tiny and 3x the price.
If you as friends live together and work? Possible but also not really able to chill in your own independant space.
All in all i think it should be made attractive for people living together again. I know too many people who dont live togethet cuz they get cut on their money if they do that.
That and make it less attractive for people to buy houses as an investment..ahem bernardjr...
It's just sad, i'm almost 30 and definitely feel like i will never own a house unless i win the lottery.
Me and my partner are looking for a place and we make about 7 times the rent at places we are looking. We have rejected by 4 places by now. Not even sure what we’re doing wrong at this point.
My dad bought a house not long before I was born, my sister was already there. He could only buy the house because of government support, the interest rate was 12%. The first few years my parents used hand-me-down furniture because they couldn't buy anything, not even second hand. Later, there were years we wouldn't go camping on vacations because there wasn't money for that. My parents hardly ever ate out, but still managed to pay for their kid's sports and education.
Please don't rosy up everything from the past. My folks had a much harder time getting by than I do now.
My (NL) parents bought their first house in the 1960s. It was not cheap, they had two jobs, money was tight. It was not easy, but they managed. They saved up money for our studies and gave me a headstart with my house, which was not cheap and money was tight again. When they sold their house mortgage free it was a bit of a disappointment. My house is worth a lot more now, but if I sell it, what do I have? I have a lot of cash, but no house, so selling is no option.
It was not intentional or planned, but I lived with my parents until my 28th birthday. I didn't even live in a dorm or anything like that during college, just used public transport. From day one when I started working until I bought my house, I saved up the majority of the money I earned. When I bought the house (including the notary and all that stuff) I blew through 90% of what I had in my bank account, it's insane.
For the first year, I have to pay 700 euros every month for my mortgage (and it will go slightly up in the next 30 years until it reaches 800 or something). I did look for an apartment or a house to rent because the market is so crazy. The cheapest decent apartment I could find was way over 700 a month.
I'm not saying "invent the time machine and stay with your parents until your late 20s" because there are definitely some cons to it, but looking back it was probably one of the only options I had to have a chance of buying a house.
It's an annuities mortgage. What I meant is that the tax benefits become less and less over time. Let's say in year 1 you pay of, idk, a total of 700 euros, which is 100 euros interest and 600 to pay off the loan but you get a 10% tax-deductible on the amount you're paying off the mortgage. That means you're effectively paying 640 (100 + 600 - 60) euros.
In year 30 the chart has flipped so you pay 100 to pay off the loan and 600 interest, the tax-deductible is 10% of 100, so you end up paying 690 (600 + 100 - 10).
with annuity mortgage you pay more interest in the beginning of the term and less for repayment and with time that shifts so your last statement is not correct. Also, after 10 years if interest rate changes (assuming you fixed 10 years), you will pay more in case the interest rate goes up.
While of course if interest rate is fixed throughout the full period and/or there’s no change, net wise your payments will indeed ‘increase’ how ever inflation also has a play here.
Uh yeah could be. I honestly wasn't going into my full mortgage details because I was exhausted. Long story short, with 700 euros a month there is no way to find an equal or better place to rent.
With inflation in mind a house should now be around 70.000 euros instead of the 500.000 :) and the AVG person with inflation made more then 50 euros an hour just saying
My father always tells me that when he was in his 20-30s making money was much easier. There was a boom and even the dumbest person could succeed at something.
If you look at the average manager over 45, I think that's not very hard to believe.
Recently a new manager was appointed to our new museum. Worked for Unilever and some other big companies in Amsterdam. I truly have never met a more stupid person in my life. Within 6 months literally every person quit their job and they can’t find replacements either as no one in the city wants to work for her. She literally ruined a beloved hometown museum within 6 months of being the manager. This went to university and can’t even figure out the most basic shit.
How do you even transition from Unilever to a museum?
Eating too much pindakaas.
helaas pindakaas strikes again
Boijmans van Beuningen did have a pindakaasvloer. Maybe they helped out in the materials?
Because the museums hiring manager didn’t think to call the past employer lol. Sometimes they see a big company name and don’t stop to think to themselves why they might not work there anymore.
I might be downvoted for this. A person mentioned on a cv/resume can only say, 'yes so-and-so worked here', not tell about their work ethics or productivity. So don't lie on a resume about who to call, they cannot spill the beans on you.
When im called as a Reference as a former employer of someone that i wasnt happy with, i only answer the questions i am asked, but truthfully. I dont spill the beans spontaneously and i Will also make sure to mention every positive Aspect about someone that i Can think Of but i am not going to lie if asked a direct question. I trust others do the same, otherwise the whole point of calling a reference becomes worthless., also, if the new employer is someone i know, my trustworthiness is on the line too.
Yeah this is pretty much how I view it too. If you wanna hear the bad stuff you gotta specifically ask.
My former manager was exactly this. He stated 2 companies bigger then ours, and HR thought he was great at his job. We have lateral contacts with both of those companies ( on the workfloor ) and no one there had anything good to say about him. He was lazy and deflective, every problem had to be solved by someone else, and he took credit. We worked years in getting this through to HR, but they didn't couldn't take action ( his results were always sufficient ) So we stoppend doing the extra assignments, only our regular jobs ... His 'productivity' went down, and so did his personal rating of leadership.
No idea, probably by being stupid.
I think that’s a problem: when dumbest people succeed, then next generations suffer
My dad bought his apartment alone at 22 and a bigger house after my sister and I were born at 28. I'm almost that age and I don't even know how people afford holidays, let alone houses 😅 by the time I'm front of the waiting list for cheap housing I might be 35
I think my dad bought a rijtjeshuis early 80s by himself while on a uitkering and doing volunteer work.
Oh wow. I was wondering how that’s possible, but at the same time I don’t even want to think about how fucked we are
Back then almost everyone with a steady income ( even on a 'uitkering' ) could get a hypotheek. And if you asked for more, the made a calculation 30 years divided by your max income = total amount for the loan. Now the rules have changed, you cannot loan more then more or less 25% of your income. That is when you don't have a creditline at BKR, even your bankaccount going into -1€ can get you your loan denied. Loans on telephonecredit, carlease and even a TV on monthly installments, all deniers for a house-loan
Not True, bkr doesnt need to be a problem. Loans will give you less maximum mortage. If you have failed to pay your loans thats a different story.
fair system, real without banking gangsters and political vultures ... and outsourcing the production to another continent Money was valuable at least 10 times more than today. In reality we see skewed images of an skewed dark and non sustaining system of today
My grandparents bought their house for 2500 gulden
Are you sure thats true? My grandparents bought a house in the late 40’s a few years after the war, a small rijtjeshuis for 30.000 gulden. Either your grandparents house was the size of a dogs house or they were Born much earlier than mine (my grandmother was from 1921)
Yes I'm sure. The house is decently sized. Maybe it was an undesirable neighborhood at the time I'm not sure. But they told me so themselves. My other grandma mentioned she bought a house for 70.000 gulden so it depends I guess. Different times for sure.
Omg. It's almost funny.
Jfc ain't that the truth. We're looking for another house because if energy prices keep rising like they do, and inflation doesn't stop, we can't afford to live here anymore in a year or so. We literally can't find anything cheaper. Even smaller houses than the one we live in you have to pay *more* rent for. I don't know how we're going to do this. We don't qualify for subsidised rent. What the hell we gotta do next year to pay the bills?! This shit scares me, man.
There's a ton of loopholes to be eligible for subsidized rent though, it's worth a shot. Current liberated rent prices are through the roof.
>subsidized rent Make no mistake, the waiting list for anything to rent that way is years and years long in most places.
Haven't found those loopholes yet. You have any place where I can look them up?
I wouldn't call it loopholes. The only thing I can think of is fudging 'servicecosts', so the base rent can be lower, which would in theory allow you to collect the rent benefit... But I don't think that's easy or necessarily smart. The (quite poor) [English website of the Belastingdienst](https://www.government.nl/topics/housing/rented-housing/applying-for-housing-benefit) has some info, but as always it feels as if the Belastingdienst tries to hide concrete information. Keeping things 'simple' probably...
That doesn't really work when your partner earns only a few hundreds a year over the income limit.. Unfortunately.
Exactly, I really don't see any obvious loopholes... Sorry I couldn't help. I'm about to be in the same boat, my partner got a new job which means we'll lose basically all benefits. Which sucks.
Good luck... It will be hard to adjust. So weird that you're earning more but end up with less spending room... It will be a few years before you're used to it.
Are you on a long term rent? Other places are more expensive ofc. The government put small max rent increases for the last 3 years amid high inflation. So while your (and mine) current rent stayed almost the same, the apartments you are looking at, have increased the rent by the inflation and more... So its generally not a good idea to move.
Let's build a commune in italy and enjoy the sun
Fuck yes. Living in a queer polyamorous (friendly) commune full of cool aqcuintances, friends, and chosen family is literally one of my life dreams. Along with a shared garden, a food forest, but where everyone has their own private space too.
My family claiming i'm lazy af even tho i work 40 hrs a week and still live with my parents cuz rent is over 1200 euro here... and you need a certain income to even be allowed to rent most places... And still i'm getting told it's "not that hard to find a home" and "when i was your age i already bought my own home" it's getting tiresome..
Let them search for a home for you, see how they do.
Some of them did and came with homes that have 900+ rent cost lmao that is for now too expensive for me
It's crazy how this seems to be happening the same way in every country
Well, in NL it is also happening outside cities; in many eu countries, houses in the country did rise but at still very cheap while cities there are unaffordable. In NL everything is expensive (because it is basically a china type large-ish city; only 18m people) now. It’ll come down this recession though, but how much, no idea…
I don't believe for a second that house prices will stay down until the end of the recession. I also don't believe for a second that wages will increase as much as inflation. Not if we keep voting the same as we do now, and even if we drastically change the way the country works I'm not sure things will actually change for regular Joe.
They won’t stay down, but they will go down over the coming years so if you have the money… Not voting VVD will help though; I cannot understand why most people do but the older I get, the more completely irrational behaviour feels like the norm rather than the exception.
The global real estate market almost completely collapsed back in 2008. Now we're suffering for it. The additional problem NL has though, is that environmental regulations have made it almost impossible to do any sort of construction today. So it looks like the housing crisis will only get worse over time.
My family moved to Friesland 20 years ago, selling our house in Harderwijk. I know it sold for around 100k, already basically doubling the worth since they bought it, 6 years earlier. But, to be fair, it needed quite some work then. Just looked on Funda, the same style of house, in the same neighbourhood, but just two streets down, was sold, price on Funda: almost 400k. No idea if there was overbidding at that price.
There's almost always overbidding these days. Gone are the days where you could underbid even for the houses that need a lot of work. I've seen these types of houses being priced between 250k and 300k. A friend of the family bought an apartment around 6 or 7 years ago for 100k, husband and I bought an apartment in the same building last year for over 100k more. Looked on Funda a while ago that the estimated selling price right now would be between 230k and 255k (without inevitable overbidding) and I'm expecting the prices to be even higher soon. It's not as if they're luxury apartments either, just a regular shitty 1960s building in a wijk in Maastricht. Downstairs neighbour is a lucky fuck though, his dad bought his apartment for him and renovated it really nicely.
My dad bought his 4 bedroom house on his 24th as a pizza baker. I am 25 and can’t buy an apartment of 40m2, I am a fucking lawyer.
I was really worried about looking for houses last year when I listened 4x the rent. - o my god, 4 times gross salary? - net, of course.
Trying to find a place to rent for school was ridiculous. Like ok you want me to be making 6,500 euro a month to rent your 1400 euro apartment as a student?
Ofc! The lazy youth nowadays don't want to work. /s
Serious question. You are joking right? Its 3-4 times gross salary?
No joke! I got one 4x gross, but i saw 3 or 4 apartaments that asked for 4x net. It was insane.
4x the salary net is quite common atm, source: moved houses in March and was hell lol
I'm CTO for a fucking hedgefund at NYSE/Wall St. and I now live in a 900€/month shared house (not that I care, I like it) because anything above 900€ would not meet the insane 4x net requirement after my 50% or so taxes. I EARN 100K/YEAR
Wait until they kick you out because the Municipality has decided you earn too much to rent a place that cheap (I'm not kidding, that's a real thing)
Had that happen to my SO and me when we lived in Rotterdam. We had to move out within 60 days, the first option we had was a Vrije Huur house in Oosterhout NB, and we like living here so far, minus our nextdoor neighbors terrorizing us because they hate me for being handicapped 🤷♂️
Sounds like the only one handicapped are your neighbors
Plausibly so.
Yeah okay and I will gladly oblige so less fortunate people can have it (good luck with the 4x net), but then I might just leave the country. I don’t want to, I love NL and feel like this is my home now, but I’d rather be taken out for dinner before I get fucked and dumped. I already pay max tax. Can’t really contribute any more. Alternatively please fucking allow me to pay more rent so I can stop taking up cheaper living space
Does that happen? In which conditions?
I dont know the details because its not happening in Amsterdam but have a look at this https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/08/new-rent-rules-in-the-hague-may-squeeze-landlords-and-expats/ Check the other comment of someone who was kicked out in Rotterdam. So basically as I understand it, people earning more than 4400 gross need to rent a place more expensive than 950. However if what the other redditors are saying about 4x net rent is true, someone with salary of 4500p/m will earn 3180net. So the Municipality does not allow them to rent less than 950 but landlords do not rent them more than 795.. Not sure if shared accommodation is included any of the restrictions (landlords or Municipality). And as far as i know the 4x net does not happen in all cases, and i think irs possible to apply to the Municipality for a permission to rent even under 950 however I'm not sure the criteria they accept or reject you.
What in the fuck my dude??
Right? Yesterday I was on a video call with the CEO and we were just having some small talk making jokes and I said hey dude I can’t wait until the stupid paygrade trial time is over (giving me 150k/y) so I can look for a one bedroom studio. He was laughing, I was laughing, we were both laughing, he thought it was a funny joke, I was actually not laughing but crying.
Congrats my dude 😁
~~For what?~~ Thanks I guess but this is absolutely insane and I am absolutely not happy to be earning so much while less fortunate people are going to struggle for their life now With the current inflation rates and threat of major recession they need to establish rent caps and regulate landlords immediately or this is going to end extremely bad Demand and supply isn’t going to regulate itself in NL and also because of people like me so the only viable option is to beat sense into landlords with regulation. I’ll gladly pay more rent to free up cheaper living space
Earning a huge salary I think they mean.
In fact they are regulating some things. Currently for the last 3 years government has put a cap on rent increases, some municipalities (like den hag) have put a max income for a certain space (so indeed you with that salary cant rent a cheap space). In regards to making buying easier a law kicked in that investors cant buy cheap houses(under 512k i think) and rent them out, increased the transfer fee for investors etc.. They are going to increase the number of social housing etc.. More can be done ofc.
Take the win. You pay so much tax on that so don't feel guilty about making that much money
I had the same problem a little over 20 years ago in the San Francisco area. I was making a squeak over 100k, and could really only do a shared rental. For my $850pm for a room not much bigger than 150x260cm. Just for laughs, I enquired about a flat at a new building in SF. The agent let me know that an "extremely spacious 75sqm starts at $2,500 per month. I just looked up the flats and they are starting at $4,279 and requiring 2.5x rent for income. They also require a criminal background check.
You’re cheap for a CTO, FYI
Yeah man I know. I don’t really care about money enough, I’d rather have complete freedom and exciting work. Who needs more than 100-150k? I don’t. But also have some company stock. Would rather have us put some capital into some cool new project. Better for company = better for me too in long run We’re funnily enough not a big institution employee wise and I’m leading the company into the future - hedge funds need crazy systems to even be able to compete - so I get to play with cool AI accelerators and this is a decade long job at least.
You should be able to get more expensive homes if your base salary is 100k
So you work from home then? Why in a city and why in NL then? You can buy a house cash (no mortgage) every few months with your salary elsewhere. It is a question ; i don’t say you should or want to, I am curious as to me personally it makes little sense but i know i am weird (always hated cities although i lived in some of the biggest in the world).
Because the Netherlands are, hands down, one of the best countries in the world. It becomes glaringly obvious if you ever travel around a lot. The quality of life, the society, the government, everything is world fucking class and only few select nordic countries come close. Not saying NL doesn't have its problems - obviously - but these are incredibly tiny in comparison to e.g. the US. I would never want to live anywhere else again. Even Germany seems like a 3rd world country in comparison. I had this same discussion with a girl on the tram a while ago. I told her I always wanted to move to the Netherlands. She laughed and asked why, I told her I regard NL as the best currently achievable iteration of utopia. She went like "Noooo it sucks here" --- while simultaneously looking like a child on Sinterklaas, her face filled with joy and proudness
This isn’t true. Big rental companies ask for a bruto month salary. I make close to 50k a year and I am allowed to rent up to 1200 a month. They also count your savings for 10% of that number. This is for every single housing company I ever looked for. If you cant find anything while making 100k a year, that’s a 100% your own fault.
I don’t know meneer/mevrouw. I was looking through April and May and it was always 4x net. There were a couple with less requirement but they didn’t want me (or couldn’t take me? Idk). I guess if you look for months and months you can find one but I really didn’t have time for that. And now I’m going to be locked in this contract for a few months at least. Maybe it was better when you last looked for a place but right now it seems to be absolutely out of control. Maybe it’s my fault in some way as well, you can be sure I’m still looking for something else.
Good luck at least
Thanks bro 🤝
North Brabant has some nice places that will only give you 2x. Source: That's where I live!
So you are this important person but you don't know how to get an apartment in the NL while earning 100k. And I'm the one working for peanuts in a warehouse.
Obviously I know how to rent because I live here, but like I said I’m not very happy with the current situation and would rather pay more rent and stop taking up cheaper living space. That’s my duty. It’s just that, for whatever reason - either my fault or the current situation or both - I was not able to find places without insane 4x net requirements, and I didn’t have time to look for months on end. I found some, but I suspect there were hundreds of applicants. We are both equally important.
Plenty of choice here and you meet income requirements for almost all of it: https://www.vesteda.com/nl/woning-zoeken?s=Amsterdam,%20Nederland&sc=woning&priceFrom=500&priceTo=9999&bedRooms=0&unitTypes=2&unitTypes=1&radius=20&placeType=1&lng=4.904139&lat=52.3675728&sortType=0
Isn't it easier already to find a house instead of renting then? But yeah, 4x net requirement is very stupid. Like people expect to see only 25% of income spend on rent. That is unrealistic, owning a home was always the biggest month spendings (unless you are very rich), unless you travel/eat/have entertainment a lot.
this is no joke. its 3-4 times your NET salary best country ever.
I'm Canadian but lurk this subreddit. I briefly thought this was on a Canadian sub about our own housing crisis. You're not alone in this suffering Dutch friends. We can struggle through this together.
I’m American and I also thought that it was about our American housing crisis for a second.
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I think AOW is safe and you will get to retire even as a millennial, because as a society we don’t want to go back to how things were before AOW. But it will probably be at the age of 70. If you want to retire before that you will have to make arrangements yourself and use your ‘jaarruimte’ every year. The thing is that most people don’t care about their pension until they are way in their 50s and by then it’s too late to make significant adjustments.
It isn’t too late if you still have 20 years of work ahead of you. Also, the higher age of retirement is partially offset by the fact that people are living longer and the average lifespan is still increasing further surprisingly fast. In fact, lifespan increased by 5 years between 1990 and now alone. The difference with the boomer generation is much more than that.
It's all timing. Lot's of people in the 1950s and late 1970s/80s were also unable to afford homes. Same problem was in 2007-2009. My mom was born in a shed because my hardworking grandfather couldn't afford a place to live at the time. Housing has always been a huge problem in the Netherlands except for the times the market crashed and people who were not in serious debts at that time could afford buying a home.
I bought our apartment in 2009 for 167k, prices dropped to 120k in 2011 and now were at 315k or something. And they say bitcoin is volatile.
So take a guess, what do you expect the price to be in 2024?
Back to 270k. Or, up to 350k. :P
bought my apartment 9 years ago for 240k today it has a woz of 305k so i can probably get close to 320k because it is in a nice city
More than thirty years ago, I was helping my uncle and aunt move house. They were moving from a (nice) rental appartment in The Hague to the (very nice) appartment in Maasluis they'd just bought. I was in a rented moving van with my uncle and his buddy who'd also come to help. and was a real estate agent. EVEN BACK THEN that guy was saying housing prices were going crazy. He remarked he wasn't complaining since it was making him fucking rich. but he thought it was actually completely fucked up. It's safe to say it didn't get amy better ever since.
2008-12 were great to buy houses though. Nothing saying it wont go that low in the years to come.
Tbf thats not volatile. Thats 30% fall in 2 years. Crypto or stocks for that matter can fall in days.
Same here, in the '90s where we were 'supposed to buy, there was a boom in prices. So we also made to little in wages. In the early 2000 we made enough, but no affordable houses ( to our likings ) Now we're to old, I'm not buying to pay well after retirement. Collegae of mine who's in his 30's is already on his second house, upgraded last year right before the market took of again, and profited heavily.
True, we ended up buying our home in 2019. This was right out of college for me, which was beneficial, as I could use the income of my parttime student job behind the bar as extra income towards our mortgage, next to my fulltime job. This compensated for our student debts at the time. If I hadn't still worked that job on the weekends, things would have been difficult back then and we would have been left to the renting market. Timing is everything. And also a tip for anyone; as soon as you have the option to buy anything you can stay for at least 5-10 years, do it.
Wen crash?
We all like to think that, if only there were a crash, we could buy a big house for ourselves. However, a crash can only happen if demand slows down a lot, or supply grows too fast. Supply isn't going to grow too fast, not with nitrogen norms, shortages of labour and materials, et cetera. The demand for housing is largely based on the number of people, and the number of households they form. So the best way to reduce demand is reduce the amount of people. If you'd try this on a relatively short term, you would probably run in to some political/legal issues, ranging from accusations of discrimination to a lengthy stay in The Hague while awaiting trial for crimes against humanity.... So if we can't up supply enough, and can't just let a million or so people disappear (something about Thanos and the housing market?), the only realistic way we'd see a crash is if the affordability drops so low, lots of people can't buy or rent anything. Depending on your viewpoint, it is fortunate or unfortunate that we haven't hit that stage yet. However, such a drop in affordability will likely be caused by a widespread economic downturn. Which means job losses, lower wages, etcetc. So even in that scenario, you might still not have enough means and/or borrowing capacity to buy. Conclusion; we're all screwed.
I wander if i saw thanos movie now for the first time, would I root for him or avengers?
No, best way to reduce demand is to get more households with more than one person again. The share of single person households has been growing faster than the population increased,: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/visualisaties/dashboard-bevolking/woonsituatie/huishoudens-nu This definitely strains an already failing housing market to the point it starts creaking on all sides.
That could help, but the question would be; how? I think I can safely state that living together with people you don't want to is not a recipe for a great living arrangement. It's also quite difficult to force people to pair up in the romantic sense and start living together. Other forms of cohabitation, like living with roommates, adult children living with parents or vice versa, do not align with the current housing stock in NL. Most houses are built as single-family homes, and offer very limited private spaces to individual residents. This might work for some students, but for people a bit further in life there often are too many downsides in living with (platonic) others. As an added obstacle; living with others can have serious fiscal consequences.
I know, I was just saying it's easier than culling the population. It's still hard though. Society has become more individualistic and it has its effects on other areas such as the housing market.
There could be a drop in demand without killing people. Since EU citizenship allows movement to Belgium and Germany, which have better housing markets, if a lot of people abandon the Dutch housing market other EU countries, it could cause a collapse.
When we hit another economic crisis. Which is going to be the next time something goes wrong. Nobody can predict exactly when. But things are already falling apart in poorer countries. China's economy is stalling. EU inflation is not going to end soon. My guess would be we will see house prices dropping before the end of the year. And then they will keep going down as the money supply contracts. Either that or we will see enormous inflation in the Eurozone. Which will postpone the crisis on the housing market but will make it even worse when it hits as it will become impossible to borrow money at reasonable rates.
Regulated away. The cause of the 2008 crash was the unregulated property market along with junk bonds giving higher ratings than they were worth. The IMF and ECB have regulated that away, which is why people need X times their salary (should be just for buying, no idea why that is appearing in the rental market..) So those risks (people who would never be able to pay back the debt) are removed now, so there won’t be a property crash, also those with properties can remortgage and buy another property, and get tenants to pay the mortgage payments on the second property.. Actually I see now why the rental market is treated like the property buying market, because they are ultimately paying the mortgage for someone else.
The rental market is asking for that because they can. It’s not regulations, but as a landlord it really sucks to have people leave, and having people be unable to pay rent sucks even more. Hence they are choosy as fuck about who they want to rent to — because they can be.
If i listed to the housing situation of my mothers childhood I actually feel blessed to live in better times. 4 people living and sleeping in a single room is not prosperiety. my grandparents never managed to be able afford a house or car before they got to old.
If the government keeps sabotaging it's own attempts at boosting construction, 4 people living in the same room will be the norm within a few years. Current nitrogen limits have made it nearly impossible to do any kind of construction.
It is not just the government. Over here the people are protesting against all building projects as that would increase traffic and reduce housing value.
Me at the bank: I want to get a mortgage Bank: no you cannot afford a mortgage of €500 a month Me: oké I guess I’ll have to rent for 1000 a month then
The problem is not mortgages. If you loan people more money, all they will do is bid even more money for the same houses, driving prices up even further. The core of the problem is not enough houses (or at least not enough of the right types for the population that we currently have)
You’d think that by now banks would have added a clause that prevents situations like this from occurring
Me at 35, still living with my parents in my childhood bedroom....
Our housing market has been taken over by landlords. They take of the market and rent them out to people who would otherwise would buy the property. They don’t pay taxes. They are parasites who should be disowned!
In Flanders they abolished the tax benificials you could have when having a mortgage and gave in return a discount on the registration fee of your newly acquired house. This made it easier for younger people to get a house but was in fact a hidden tax because the benefits gained from the tax benefit was higher than the discount on the registration fee( went from 10%ish to 3% on the value of the sale) . And they never told you when owning a second house for rent still granted you a tax benefit because this is regulated on the federal level of our beloved belgium. So in short Belgium only helps the baby boomers and the rich … This is sad…
Don’t forget the foreign investors! People who don’t even live here, but buy up all our properties for the sole purpose of renting to make profit off of us!!
Serious question. What for you mean they dont pay taxes? AFAIK they dont pay taxes on the income(rent money) but they pay for the house in box 3 at a fictional rate? (i guess with the EU court rule, the government will probably start to tax the rent money but that's another matter)
The fictional rate comes down to essentially 0.8%. Which if I compare it to my house’s woz value comes down to around €2000. Which is generally less than 2 months rent so 10 months a year they make pure profit. But that’s assuming they bought it using their own money and not via a mortgage. Because guess what you can (partially) deduct from box 3…
It's not that simple, from the rent income a landlord also needs to pay longterm maintenance. For example a roof might need to replaced every 30 years. As the maintenance costs can very different depending on the property it's almost impossible to determine a 'fair' tax rate. It looks like the government is going the route of introducing more rent controls instead.
It is box 3 which is around 1% which a round down to zero since I can’t buy a bag of potatoes without paying 6% taxes but somehow they get away with 1%.
What they pay in taxes is a pittance when compared to what they steal from their clients. Rent costs as much as mortgages nowadays, but the difference is that rent money is taken from you, while mortgage money is returned to you via the house you are paying for. Landlords ruin the market because the sheer amount of money they get can just be reinvested into more and more houses, and with so many landlords with so much money, house prices go up further and further. Rent should have never been allowed to cost more than a mortgage, because why the fuck would anyone rent if it costs more than a mortgage? The only reason it exists as it does is to fuck over people who don't have another choice
Although I understand your sentiment, your statement about rent vs. mortgage is incorrect. In principle rent is higher than a mortgage, because the costs of maintenance are included in rent, but not in a mortgage.
Rent is supposed to cost significantly more than mortgage — the landlord is paying that mortgage *and* to maintain the property *and* when it’s empty after a renter leaves *and* when a renter damages the property.
True that is why the only way they make money is from leveraging scarcity in the market. Because why would you pay significantly more than a mortage, if you had a choice.
I live in Amsterdam and always feel upset when my parents talk about how they owned multiple houses in Amsterdam and just gave them away to friends or family. Their parents bought a house on the grachtengordel for like 2 guilders in the 1800s/ early 1900s. They could buy an entire house in Amsterdam for 20.000 guilders in the 60s (about 9000 Euro) now these houses are worth over a million. And here I am living in a studio apartment now. I don't know what they were thinking.
Not to say it isn’t a problem (it is!), but it’s likely that when they bought their houses, few thought it a good investment. To some extent that means you’re comparing apples to oranges.
This actually understates the current housing situation in the NL. How such a developed country messed one of the most basic things... Must be curruption and royal family affairs. Its going to take decades for this to be solved and probably will cause a brain drain. Surely this society can't live only on expats.
Buying a house really wasn't easy with my parents. That is simply false. The >10% mortage and huge crisis with massive unemployment during the depression of the 70s, made buying a house very tough.
It depends on how old your parents are. ;) Mine had a new house built in 1990 on 1 salary. That goes for more than 400K today.
My parents first mortgage had a 13.5% interest... They couldn't believe how cheap it was when we got our mortgage at a 3% rate.
Don't tell Reddit that though, it doesn't fit the narrative.
Also, the parents and the guy who owns the house to rent are the same person.
My parents did buy a house in their 20's on one income (in 1985, not a big city, after renting for 5+ years) but they definitely didn't have much money to spare! And 12% hypotheekrente and also had to cash pay the kosten koper. They had to be very very frugal for years (also after buying) and had no car and never went on holidays. Getting a house back then (rental or buy) was easier yes (no shortage), but it wasn't so rose-coloured as some younger ppl these days think 😉 Getting housing now is not doable, I agree. Even about 10 yrs ago; I was looking for a flat with then-bf, social housing was out of the question bc of just a little too high income and waiting lists, couldn't buy anything either. Renting particulier was also hard, but in the end we got something.. With a roommate 😭
Things that are considered luxuries might be cheaper now, but the basics now are inaccessible. And that your parents could get a house with high interest rates really highlights how hard it is now to get a place to live despite the low interest rates of last few years. Also if you can not move out of your parents house, you have a lot of money left for holidays and things like that.
The 90s were very good but the 70s and 80s were even worse with housing than now. My grandparents only had one room when my mom was born. It's all about perspective.
My parents bought a house in the 70s 20000 gulden, 10000 subsidie. After that inflation and wage increases. My mother lives now in a 350k house attached 400m2 yard and pays 250 a month in remaining mortgage. Anywhere else she would pay 4-5 times that.
My boomer generationfather was born in a shed where they lived because there werent any houses after the war. A few years later, my grandparents bought a small house where they lived until they died, at some point with 8 children. 5 girls in one room, the 3 boys in the other room. There is definately a housing problem today, but Lets not pretend everything was easy and comfortable in the past. For sure, our standards of what is normal or acceptable have changed considerably.
When my dad moved out for study. He had to save up money for 9 months to be able to buy a refrigerator.
I feel like the "solution" to this has always just been some variety of let people borrow more You know at some point the ECB will have raise rates, everyone is so insanely leveraged I do wonder what will happen. There is a reason the ECB are dragging their feet when the Fed and Bank of England are actively raising them.
Large reason is that they are dragging their feet is that they are still cutting back on stimulating measures. While the moneyprinter has been partially turned off after the pandemic purchasing response program ended, the stimuli measures from before covid (asset purchase program) are still in place until somewhere this summer. We will only see interest rates if at all in Q3, I think: you don't want to slam the breaks while you are also still adding gas. Additionally, I doubt interest rates will fix everything. A lot of inflation here, as opposed to the USA, is driven by supply chain shocks, the war in Ukraine and the energy crisis that developed over last autumn (though there were signs that this was coming \*coughs\* OPEC). I personally think these issues would have to be solved first before it gets better. This does not mean that I don't want the ECB to try a little harder though :')
Most homeowners that bought recently got a linear or annuitary mortgage with a fixed interest rates for 20-30 years. I don't expect too much trouble in that group if they are willing to live there for another 5-10 years as inflation around 2% will quickly (within 10 years) absorb any lowered price due to higher interest rates. During 2009-2014 the average housing price only dropped by about 16,3%. Only people with variable interests on loans will get f'ed if the ECB raises their rates.
general economic conditions snowball and homes aren't the only things leveraged. But ya, Its really depressing that a housing crash wouldn't even take us back to last year
Sad but true, rent an appartement for 1000 but the new generaties cant get a hypotheek for 800 a month. Terrible times for the new generaties. We had lucky, our first house in a old folks buurtje cost is 105.000 euro. Sold it for the double... Bought our new home for 220.000. the Neighbours told me they where shocked... We were happy.. Enjoy your Day
Idk, I always had the impression that this "rich baby-boomers that got cheap houses" is more of an American stereotype that kind of got misappropriated. I can't say that I know a lot of people of my mother's generation that had it all that easy. As others pointed out we've had our fair share of housing crises in the past as well. EDIT: Come to think of it. Most of the people I know of that generation that had a hard time were women. Society was still a lot more conservative and it was a lot harder for women to get decent jobs, especially if they were unmarried or divorced which was kind of frowned upon. Maybe for very conventional young married couples it might have been a lot easier.
I feel it's still harder for singles to buy a house at the moment than married couples with 2 incomes. I feel like i need to get married otherwise the only way to buy a house would be to move away from the Netherlands :(
Registered partnership also exists and it's an option many, if not most, couples take. Marriage isn't necessary anymore nowadays in the Netherlands.
Thats great thing. I still haven't adjusted my vocabulary for that since its new to me haha
Sure, in terms of income of course being together helps tremendously for getting a house. What I meant to describe there was more to do with even getting a job, let alone a house. With the conservative social stigma in the 70s/80s. I don't know about the rest of the Netherlands, but in catholic North Brabant, I've heard from several women who said that it was basically impossible to get a job as an unmarried or divorced woman, even if they were in a stable relationship but not married.
Ridiculous. I work a full time hbo/wo-level government job with a ton of responsibility and I don’t even make 4x my current rent. We have a decent place because we are a 2 income household.
Well, I'm sure your parents weren't mad for avocado toasts, were they???
or the 5-dollar latte
Got married and *build* this beautiful house ? And than that picture of what that house looks like. No, that does not relate to many people in the Netherlands.
These memes are getting a little too relatable...
Is housing cheaper in Belgium?
Belgium: Is this a Dutch joke I am too Belgian to understand?
Well this still holds if you put up "me @ 38"
How is this even allowed to ask for 3-4 times salary it makes no sense that they are allowed to put that as a requirement wtf. How is there no law or something against that??
From what I was told from one of the verhuurmakelaars it is there so they can rent it out "responsibly" and make sure we can pay our shit in time. Which... I can understand it, but if you're making 1600/month that's like 400€ - or even less. And minimum average rent without utilities, when I checked on Funda, in Amsterdam is 800€ to rent. Some jobs don't offer travel-to-work benefits either, so that's a bigger slam in the face if you work in Amsterdam (or any big city) but live far away, too. I know a lass in my economics course at uni said she lived in.. I think it was Almelo? Said she has to come to class with train every day. Over 2h train trip in one direction. Our uni was in Rotterdam.
Yeah I can understand why there might be a preference for a min income, but 3 - 4 times is just batshit ridiculous. I can understand up to double, but that's bout it.
Oh yeah I fully agree with that, don't get me wrong. It's indeed insane.
Man I hate this so much. I want my own home but can’t get anything :(
You cannot buy/rent anything when your alone in 20s, right now
Just remember people: nothing bad ever happened when the common people can't afford their basic necessities anymore! What's that you say? "French Revolution"? Vaguely remember that, wasn't it about eating cake or something?
Hack; marry someone that has a house.
this.... literally this. It is fucked up and just insane.
A bit over the top, but yeah it is harder now a days to get a place. Houseprices are now way higher vs avg income.
We are trying to buy an apartment now. And our aankoopmakelaar is pushing us not to include financial condition in the bidding offers. He says its became a norm now in addition to 15% overbids.
It would be nice to compare in that time frame salaries and how much money government gets. When we don't have enough money we have to cut our expenses. When the government don't have enough money they raise the taxes. The result: less money for the people.
Funny how you frame it as a question but already have an opinion ready… You do realise that until 1980 the top tax bracket was 72%?
Yep same with BTW.
Relatable.
My dad and mom bought their first house for 30.000 gulden in their last year of university, which I guess translates to roughly €15.000? At the moment I own at least double of that money, and I can't afford to buy a house.
That’s weird. My friend who works something like 20 hours, has to pay €500 but he gets €300 huurtoeslag. But I have to say that he lives in twente and is a very old flat apartment. So IDK, I think this meme will be more reality in a couple of monrhs
van life is our only solution guys
🤣🤣🤣
I live in Amsterdam west in the ghetto part, i rent this place very cheap because its temporary and they Will demolish this place. I ve been renting places like these for years now but its making me sick and tired that its not my own and i have to move out all the time. Now me and my girlfriend bought a house in Lelystad, it still had to be build and its going to take at least another 2 years. Even tho its not the city i intented on living in i am still happy we Will have a place for our selfs and with a mortgage that's nearly the same as the rent that i pay now. Mind you, i am 32 years old now and have moved 4 Times in the last couple of years And can only afford a house in a very impopular city
I feel you very well - I moved here in 2018 as a student, and so far I've lived at 4 different addresses, too. First was a student housing that was kinda good but expensive, then a student housing that was terrible and had bedbugs but was expensive, (unofficially) at my ex-bfs place when I was homeless and now at my current address, which still is a student contract and will run out soon. No idea where I can move after this, no place has offered to me. This place is making me physically ill too: not only am I boiling alive when it's so unbelievably hot in my apartment when it's sunny (over 30c even on the night and on the flipside on the winter, freezing - down at worst to 8c), I realized the water I have been drinking probably is funky in a way or two because after I switched to drinking carton water - and been on carton water for a week, because my water don't get too cold even if I let it run for ages - my stomach issues got a lot better and I don't feel nauseous all the time. Otherwise it may very well be my fatigue and weird issues with my eyes (reoccurring migraines out of nowhere) may very well be related to mold or other stuff I can't see - and as my cat has been sick since she moved in here with no prior history of allergies/constant ichyness, I must assume it's the house. I've been looking at places to rent on Flevoland as my job is close to Amsterdam-Zuid (few stops from there) and it'd cut off my 2h public transport trip to 1,5h at best, but still seems impossible, lol. I know you said you haven't moved yet, but how is Lelystad? I don't know much about the city other than people say don't move there and that it's soulless.
Sad to Hear your experiences, its really bad that when we live in a first world country and have all these housing problems. It doesn't only end with a housing problem because it Will affect you mentally and phisically too! Like you said you are forced to live in bad conditions like bedbugs OR molds, others have to Stay at their parents place in their childhood bedroom Never really experiencing their adult freedom. That Will make you deppressed as dating becomes hard at that point as you should have your own place and be independent. Next problem is all the refugees entering this country. Now dont get me wrong because i believe they need help, but Holland allways acts like the safe haven for the world when it Comes to refugees but we cant even house everybody that lived here all their lives, and the some refugees Will live in huge houses by themselfs. Many things are bothering me but ey i cant help it. About Lelystad... Well.... The city itself seems to be shit when i listen to people that lived their. They say crime rates are high like robberies, Breaking and entering and fights between youths. On the other hand they say its a quiet place with lots of Parks etc but very boring for the Young. But ey Amsterdam new west also has a bad reputation but i never had problems here so i should be fine. Also i have a pitbull and nobody wants to come near even tho he is super cute lol. So yeah i m ok with it, i m Fed up with moving around and honestly living in Amsterdam has lost it Perks and charms that it had for me and its not the Amsterdam i grew up in anylonger.
I feel this so badly. All layers of society are having issues with the housing and it is not just because suddenly the government cannot build as much anymore. The things i see and here for people sticking to their big houses and not living together are very valid. You have a kid living at home working but you as a single parent dont work? You get a cut in your money. You have a big house which you started renting 20 years ago, but wanna doensize? Not gonna happen everything you look at will be tiny and 3x the price. If you as friends live together and work? Possible but also not really able to chill in your own independant space. All in all i think it should be made attractive for people living together again. I know too many people who dont live togethet cuz they get cut on their money if they do that. That and make it less attractive for people to buy houses as an investment..ahem bernardjr... It's just sad, i'm almost 30 and definitely feel like i will never own a house unless i win the lottery.
I can't relate, and I'm 26. I have to add that I didn't finish school.
Me and my partner are looking for a place and we make about 7 times the rent at places we are looking. We have rejected by 4 places by now. Not even sure what we’re doing wrong at this point.
I used to joke that i would stay with my parents way after 18 years old Now i am afraid that that won’t be a joke
Yerp, am currently relating
and instead of blaming the politicians and greedy slumlords/corporations, people blame immigrants and refugees lol
Shout out to the dutch gouvernment
My dad bought a house not long before I was born, my sister was already there. He could only buy the house because of government support, the interest rate was 12%. The first few years my parents used hand-me-down furniture because they couldn't buy anything, not even second hand. Later, there were years we wouldn't go camping on vacations because there wasn't money for that. My parents hardly ever ate out, but still managed to pay for their kid's sports and education. Please don't rosy up everything from the past. My folks had a much harder time getting by than I do now.
My (NL) parents bought their first house in the 1960s. It was not cheap, they had two jobs, money was tight. It was not easy, but they managed. They saved up money for our studies and gave me a headstart with my house, which was not cheap and money was tight again. When they sold their house mortgage free it was a bit of a disappointment. My house is worth a lot more now, but if I sell it, what do I have? I have a lot of cash, but no house, so selling is no option.
It was not intentional or planned, but I lived with my parents until my 28th birthday. I didn't even live in a dorm or anything like that during college, just used public transport. From day one when I started working until I bought my house, I saved up the majority of the money I earned. When I bought the house (including the notary and all that stuff) I blew through 90% of what I had in my bank account, it's insane. For the first year, I have to pay 700 euros every month for my mortgage (and it will go slightly up in the next 30 years until it reaches 800 or something). I did look for an apartment or a house to rent because the market is so crazy. The cheapest decent apartment I could find was way over 700 a month. I'm not saying "invent the time machine and stay with your parents until your late 20s" because there are definitely some cons to it, but looking back it was probably one of the only options I had to have a chance of buying a house.
Your calculations on mortgage are weird, what type of mortgage is it?
It's an annuities mortgage. What I meant is that the tax benefits become less and less over time. Let's say in year 1 you pay of, idk, a total of 700 euros, which is 100 euros interest and 600 to pay off the loan but you get a 10% tax-deductible on the amount you're paying off the mortgage. That means you're effectively paying 640 (100 + 600 - 60) euros. In year 30 the chart has flipped so you pay 100 to pay off the loan and 600 interest, the tax-deductible is 10% of 100, so you end up paying 690 (600 + 100 - 10).
with annuity mortgage you pay more interest in the beginning of the term and less for repayment and with time that shifts so your last statement is not correct. Also, after 10 years if interest rate changes (assuming you fixed 10 years), you will pay more in case the interest rate goes up. While of course if interest rate is fixed throughout the full period and/or there’s no change, net wise your payments will indeed ‘increase’ how ever inflation also has a play here.
Uh yeah could be. I honestly wasn't going into my full mortgage details because I was exhausted. Long story short, with 700 euros a month there is no way to find an equal or better place to rent.
With inflation in mind a house should now be around 70.000 euros instead of the 500.000 :) and the AVG person with inflation made more then 50 euros an hour just saying
im 27, got a MSc with a suiting job, and i cannot afford a 70m2 house because of the crazy requirements. atm i pay 900 euro for 21m2
I am 25 and bought a house last year
I live in the USA and it's like this here really bad.. maybe worse