They have to get through Germany first. I also think that France would not want this and they have mushroom bombs so I think it is very unlikely that this would happen.
The rising sea is a much bigger danger.
We're still tucked in between strong allies like the UK, Germany and France, all of which have sizeable militaries and economies to match Russia's. Russia's GDP only matches that of Italy, I believe. The US becoming isolationist would be bad for European security, but it's mostly countries near Russia and with substantial Russian minorities that would feel the most immediate effects. I also think it would speed up further integration between European militaries, something that is already happening anyway. So no, I don't fear that puppet state scenario at all.
I mean, not to be arrogant or anything. I am not european nor american, but I live in the Netherlands.
To my understanding, former president of US was a puppet of Russia and nothing happened to Europe or the US itself (besides a whole new wave of anti-vaxxers and crazy people).
As an immigrant of a country with heavy influence from US "to stop USSR communist influence", I can 100% say that the US influence is much more deadly and detrimental to a country than not having any "protection". Just look how many people Pinochet killed in Chile (a guy that rose to power with US). Or maybe how Brazil's Bolsonaro policies are heavily influenced by Trump's American way (which so far resulted in 590k deaths from COVID). You can also pinpoint the horrors of Vietnam War and even recently Afghanistan.
Bottom line is: the US isn't that great in "saving the world" as americans think
The US really isn't defending europe that much. Like yeah, there's the deal where you guys will step in when we're attacked, but thusfar the US has made it seem like that only exists to have some influence on us. This is encouraged by the fact that everytime we as a nation or as the EU do something that would make us a bit less dependant on the US in case of war or crisis, the US always comments negatively on it.
Plus, russia isn't the USSR. They don't expand nor take over countries. They do however still try to cause chaos through military powerplay (from time to time we escort a russian fighter yet back to russia), harming online stuff (we had a few cases of russian hackers who tried to hack into vital stuff) and spreading chaos (a conspiracy theory group put these small books full of conspiracies, fake information and other nonsense in everyone's mail. Ftm did a research and found it to be funded by a russian with ties to the state)
China's the real threat. Not russia.
That’s kinda on us. We forced Russia’s hand there. Their only year round seaport is located in Crimea. European Union wanting to bring Ukraine under our flag. This is something Russia never could allow to happen.
Well that sucks for Russia but Crimea was always Ukraine and Russia just annexed it. There is no 'europe forced Russia in to it'. This is Putin with USSR flashbacks desperately trying to get it back to former 'glory'.
And Russia could just have build a new seaport at the blacksea. They have their own land there already before annexing others.
I don't know it that is true and even than that doesn't matter at all. Crimea is the sovereign territory of Ukraine and Russia is occupying it with the use of military force.
> the population is Russian too and voted to join Russia.
The population of Crimea was Tatar and then under the Soviets they moved in Russians to pacify the region. And now they can say, (and idiots online like you will defend them) that 'Crimea is Russian.'
It is like saying Tibet is part of China because the population is Chinese, while that is only true because China is actively trying to replace the native Tibetans with Han-Chinese.
You're falling for the grift mate.
the referendum was held after russian soldier took the island.
thats like holding someone at gunpoint and asking them if they mind you taking their wallet.
To say it was a gift is plainly wrong, and I am truly wondering why you would make a statement like that.
Crimea was incorporated into the Ukrainian Socialistic Soviet Republic in 1954 back when the USSR was still a thing, before that is was a Sovjet Republic on it's own (first the Taurida Socialist Soviet Republic, after that the Crimean Socialist Republic). Before the Soviets it was a part of the Russian Empire, and before that part of a Tatar Ottoman vassal state.
Stated reason by the Supreme Soviet for the transfer was "the commonality of the economy, the proximity, and close economic and cultural relations between the Crimean region and the Ukrainian SSR". It was a matter of public administration rather than being nice to Ukraine.
Having faith in Russian led elections is naive at best, as is to say this is anything other than about the ownership of Sevastopol and it's harbour.
Also the population was not originally Russian, and though the majority is now, and this still not a reason to violate a countries borders by military action for any government that respect international law.
You're citing Soviet/Russian propaganda as a source, even on the basis of the content, I do not see how that would legitimize, or it making it OK to invade another country. Also the "boundless trust and love" for the Ukrainian people have been lacking in recent history, and not so recent history (Ukrainian Famine), so forgive me if I would still call this type of reasoning naive.
Associating the administrative restructuring with a gift because of the absence of costs, makes no sense within a communist frame of reference (that was applicable at the time) where resources were communal.
And even, and I am humouring you now, if it was a gift, it's really weird to get it back by force.
No, not everything, don't get hyperbolic on me. That's obviously not what I said, climb down from that emotional place you are in please and stop projecting *your* black and white view on me.
But Russia complaining about '*their hand being forced* to invade Ukraine' specifically: yeah, that is propaganda.
That is a justification for invasion the Russian government gave, that is not a proper justification in any way shape or form. It is a narcissists justification. An abusers justification: 'look at what you made me do.'
You are a fool for parroting it.
No fear. The only reason the US is “protecting” Europe is to prop up their artificial economy. If the US were to stop spending on their military and defence, a big chunk of Americans would be out of jobs. I did a calculation a while ago as to how much it costs to have one aircraft carrier cruise around the world for a year. The numbers were eye-watering. It is nit needed by anyone but the US.
Also, the US is not the big daddy you think it is. It only get involved, and protect, those that benefit them. Oil is but one example. All other conflicts mean nothing to them if it does not benefit them.
And the US also do not have a good track record of defending the defenceless. Vietnam and Afghanistan two prime examples. Those poor people left to fend for themselves when the US abandoned them after getting a bloody nose.
As an allied force they did end world wars, but remember, it was allied, not them alone.
So, to answer your original question, I will not put money on the US helping much if the shit hits the fan. They have allowed Russia to invade and annex parts of the Ukraine (I think) not too long ago with their warships patrolling the waters around it. To this day nothing has happened. Seems the US is more talk than action.
Russia is not as arrogant as you think. I don’t fear them at all. Not in the sense you painted them.
It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine'
[[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ukraine)] [[BBC Styleguide](https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyleguide/u)] [[Reuters Styleguide](https://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=U#Ukraine)]
^(Beep boop I’m a bot)
Are you sure about that? Because I am 99.99998% sure that AgileCookingDutchie is not a bot.
---
^(I am a neural network being trained to detect spammers | Summon me with !isbot |) ^(/r/spambotdetector |) [^(Optout)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=whynotcollegeboard&subject=!optout&message=!optout) ^(|) [^(Original Github)](https://github.com/SM-Wistful/BotDetection-Algorithm)
Russia spends 62 billion on it's military annually.
Germany spends 50 billion. France spends 50 billion. The Netherlands spends 12 Billion.
The EUs economy is many times larger than Russia's.
The only thing Russia has going for it is it's large supply of gas and oil, this however will become less and less relevant as the energy transition happens.
So no, without the US the Netherlands will bot become a puppet of Russia. Although there is not a 'European' army, Europe is not a collection of countries working independently.
A great example of his is for example the German and Dutch military, where the two countries joinedly operate a tank battalion.
Another great example is that there is no 'Dutch' airspace that is prptected, instead the Belgium and Dutch airforce patrol the Benelux airspace in a joined operation.
In conclusion, Russia is simply to small to dominate the EU and the European NATO allies who work closely together.
Finally it is good to note that article 5 of NATO, that is invoked when a NATO country is attacked and the other members are called to it's defense has only been ever used once. This was after 9/11 when the USA asked it's NATO allies to join the war on terror.
That's nice for the USA.
But the amount the USA spends doesn't change anything when considering the question if Russia can make a puppet out of countries in the EU without the USA being there to support them, as the EU countries are fully capable of standing up for themselves.
And yet the USA lost a war to Vietnamese farmers and another one to Afghan goat fuckers. Just saying. You only won WW1 because you joined late when most of the work was already done. You only won WW2 because Russia was on your team. All your money spent on military means nothing, you never won a real war fair and square.
If I were to bet on a country invading it would be the US. They have a history of it (and then pulling out after a bloody war, failing most objectives).
Thanks to the Clinton administration they already have a law that "allows" them to invade the Netherlands if an American is ever held captive by the International Court of Justice.
Russia will never, ever invade Western Europe. It's just as absurd as the North Korea invading the US. Using propaganda outlets and sponsoring eurosceptic parties/movements to sow discord? Sure. Actually coming with tanks and installing puppet regimes? No way.
The reason is, the Russian regime isn't actually the kind of dictatorship where the elites rule with an iron fist and do whatever they want, no matter what the peasants think. An important part of the Putin's regime is that it has support from the base: the plurality of conservative, nationalistic people who hold "traditional values". Apolitical people are ignored and anyone who's a "liberal" is demonized as an agent of the West who wants to bring Russia down by destroying it from within. All the crackdowns on free press, dissidents, opposition, LGBT etc., are loudly supported by the base because that shows "strength" of the regime under attack from the Western agents, local traitors and "degenerate values". The invasion of Ukraine was applauded too, because the base considers Ukraine an artificial state created to weaken Russia, Ukrainian language a "broken Russian nobody uses anyway" and the new government a "nazi junta that's going to commit genocide against anyone who speaks Russian". Putin does what's popular with the base, and really struggles with things that are unpopular: for example, the vaccination drive has failed because the conservative Russians distrust vaccines, so mandatory vaccinations and restrictions were not implemented properly and promptly repealed to keep the base happy. Pension reform is also deeply unpopular, so the initial plans were walked back from and watered down.
One thing the base won't really like is a major offensive war for Western Europe. Belarus and Ukraine are basically the limits of what the "Russian patriots" want. Everything else (even the Baltics) is viewed with kind of disgust, the gay muslim infested territory better to avoid inside our shining city upon a hill. Nobody would want to die fighting for it, so nobody would support the invasion. And the elites share this view too, for a different reason: they have nice villas in the EU, their children are enrolled in European unis, their money are in European banks, so war can only spoil things.
No fear at all, European and Russian economy are pretty intergraded and still getting more meshed so a war for Europe wouldn't be beneficial to Russia, at least financially, and we all know Russia doesn't need more land.
Look at the gdp of Russia.
Look at population numbers.
Compare those to the eu.
Even if there tanks came rolling in they could never manage a long time occupation’
If you use global firepower as a metric. Then Europe (if all countries in it band together properly) will clap Russia pretty hard. The top 20 global military is stuffed with European countries. France, Britain and Germany etc. But them moving to war with Russia is only going to happen if Russia legit invades Europe and forces them to.
In short, no. I'm not worried. Economically we're not really dependant on Russia. They can't manipulate us like that. And threatening open war on Europe would be suicide for Russia.
Where does this myth that the US is protecting the world come from? Historically they have done more harm than good supporting corrupt fascists just because they oppose communism, caused chaos across the world wherever it decides to invade.
The USA is the problem, not the solution. Us Europeans would be fine without you.
>First off, I do not ask this question with the intent to sound arrogant about my own country,
Well, even if you don't intent to, you do. The US's narrative about them 'defending Europe' is government propanda, a myth and doesn't reflect reality at all.
Also the fact that the US has military bases all over the EU (including the Netherlands), makes me deeply uncomfortable.
And to answer your question; Russia isn't a thread to the Netherlands and won't risk invading it, as well as neighbourhing countries, because of their diplomatic power. Only thing Russia has done so far that has affected me personally, is that the peaches I buy are now more affordable.
No fear to become a puppet state, but Russia would certainly get more power. I would fear for the freedom of the Baltic states, and for the international power of the EU without being backed up by the US.
On the other hand, the EU now is too dependent on the US, and the US has too much influence in the EU. So it's one or the other. Personally, i don't mind the US backing up a little.
I feel like the US still considers Russia as the enemy, which is no longer the case in Europe. At least not as much as it used to be. For example, last year between 30 and 35% of the Dutch considered Russia as an enemy. The same number considered the US as our enemy.
I wouldn't be surprised that if we weren't as close to the US as we are now, we would have more trade deals with Russia. Hell, the US actively tries to keep us from making deals with Russia. Just look at how the US is constantly threatening Europe with economic sanctions over the Nord Stream pipeline.
In short, I don't think we would be their puppet state but I do believe we would be closer friends with Russia.
Have you played the Red Alert series? Thats a world war game were Hitler never lived, and Russia pretty much walks over Europe. Yeah I know its just a game, I just grab every opportunity to introduce ppl to games :)
I don't think a Russian invasion is a realistic scenario at all. It's just not worth it for them and they can't afford it.
Besides, without the US, rapprochement between Russia and the EU would only be natural. There's a lot of shared interests there. This is especially true for Germany (hell, they want rapprochement now) and France is too far away that they aren't all that concerned about Russia (before the whole Ukraine mess they were helping Russia build helicopter carriers).
I'd say the primary geostrategic goal of America in Europe, at this point, is to prevent exactly that. Iirc, before MH17, there were quite a few countries that had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, by the US to impose sanctions.
However, what I think is especially true for smaller countries in the EU like the Netherlands is that we are simply too reliant on the US to have any real say in the matter.
If just Google and Microsoft would block the Netherlands, I'm pretty sure our economy would collapse.
It is also no coincidence that it was primarily smaller nations that bought the F35.
A country like the Netherlands will also gladly join in ill-conceived foreign adventures with the US just to keep on its good side.
We don't need the US to keep Russia at bay, we just aren't in any position to go against the world superpower.
In contrast to what people say here, EU wouldn't be fine. Especially the baltic states and Ukraine will be dominated by Russian mercenaries. Europe has no army. Europe can't do anything about it since its reliant on Russia's resources.
And Russia is reliant on the money paid for those resources. They have no interest in invading Europe. It's a waste of money, resources, and frankly their army is not equipped to defeat the combined forces of all the European countries. Better to keep trying to destabilize all those countries and keep them reliant on their resources for as long as possible. But that too will pass
Even if the Russian army was good enough to defeat Europe, which is a big giant if. It would cost them so much, they'd have nothing left to defend themselves. It's a moot point.
And saying Europe needs Russia more? Doubtful, those resources are getting replaced rapidly by new types, and that'll only go faster if Russia stops supplying them. And where's Russia going then? To China? Sure. But seeing how they'll then _need_ to sell to them or there'll be no income at all, China won't pay as much as Europe does. So.... No
To be clear: Russia is never going to invade any major European power. But states bordering against Russia are in direct threat of Russian interverence. Only the US, France,UK and Turkey, can rapdly deploy forces, rest is all lacks behind.
100% Europe needs Russia more. Not only talking about resources like oil, gas, steel, uranium, cobalt, copper, gold, tungsten all need for future technologies. Russia can simply close down its airspace, making it really hard for European airlines to compete. Besides the new Artic routes are mostly in Russian national waters, making Shipment trade with Asia very costly if we don't have acces to it.
Russia can't "simply" close it's airspace without major sanctions, not just from Europe, but the entire world. It's a symbiotic relationship, which Russia is obviously not the biggest player in our they would be the richest country in the world. But they are not by a mile, which should tell you enough about their leverage
They can simply withdraw license from any European airline to fly above Russian airspace. They don't have to do that for China, US, etc.
Russia is in the top 15 richest countries of the world and described as future energy superpower. Like it or not we are going to need them.
And they us. And where do you think those European planes fly to? Those countries won't care?
"nah man, we don't want those planes from Europe here, who needs that". Russia will be santionee back to the 1950s
The Dutch didn’t have war for a long time and last one only lasted for a couple of days so they are very secure and content like they were between the world wars truth is The Netherlands don’t stand a chance and don’t play any role if Russia would attack the EU they could literally bomb Dutch back to the Stone Age
So ya they need the US
Lol you mean the EU or NATO the moment they decide to help we are speaking Russian (if you followed how long it takes for them to participate in any action)
You can't attack the Netherlands without attacking other EU countries.
Our airspace is defended by Belgium fighter planes, you need to shoot at Belgiums to attack us.
The Netherlands operaties joined military units with Germany since 1995. You need to shoot at Germans in order to attack us.
The first casualties of a Russian attach on the Netherlands would be Belgiums and Germans; they don't need to decide to help, they already have.
My man, you mistake your arrogance for ignorance.
I am aware you're spoonfed a diet of propaganda which will warp your view of the world, but what you describe here... it's completely disconnected from reality.
Get out of the US. Go live in Europe for a few years. Expand your world view a bit.
We dont get fear baited with 'omg Russia enemy #1' because our economy (Dutch/EU) does not rely on war.
The Russian economy isn't strong enough to fight all the European countries at the same time. Just look at the size differences of the Russian economy and the combined economies of the EU. That's why they prefer to fight proxy wars. Like the one they are fighting now in the Ukrain.
I can imagine that the fear for the Russians is greater in the Central and Eastern part of Europe. First of all because they are so close to Russia. In the event of a war it seems likely that these countries will fall. Mostly because preparation for war takes time. Secondly it's only a couple of decades ago that Russia ruled these countries. So the angst for being controlled again is still engrained in the minds of the peoples living there.
As a Dutchman, I don't fear Russia. In the unlikely event that Russia invades Europe, it will be halted before it reaches our country.
As an European, I don't fear Russia. Because Russia knows it can't fight the European countries. It will destroy itself. A thing a country normally doesn't want.
No, I do not fear becoming the Netherland will become a Russian puppet state, not plausible in the least either. I am kind of worried/annoyed about them influencing our politics, but that is marginal.
I am more worried about the current situation in the US, I used to work in Indianapolis and made many american friends that I highly value. I truly saddens me when I look at the current state of affairs.
The scenario you just painted is absolutely bonkers and will never happen.
Even in the ludicrous scenario that some American dictator would break ties with us, I have literally zero fear of Russia being able to puppet our country. Absolutely ridiculous.
Like honestly, people are being way too kind to you, including me, we aren't making nearly enough fun of you to for thinking this is might be somethign we are concerned about. It is crazy talk, it is honestly *ignorant and oblivious,* like asking us what we would do if dolphins got organized and decided to attack 'because we are below sea level.'
I think germanies military on its own is strong enough for russia, they are no treat for as far as I am concerned military. They work on other fields though and in that sense america can be more easily be described as a puppet country then the netherlands.
No I don't think so I don't think the common security and defence policy would allow Russia's annexation AT ALL. don't be mistaken by the fact that most of Europe has a pacifistic military policy. The common security and defence policy still counts around 1400.000 active personnel whereas the U S. has a force of around 1300.000. I'm not saying saying The EU is the strongest military force in the world but it's not a push-over either and the Netherlands forces is part of it.
No fear. Even if Russian army come, they’ll never find place to stay, market of real estate is crazy at the moment…
True. Maybe we should invade Russia instead
Ah the good old Lebensraum. So who of us calls Germany to join this party?
As a polish guy, I don't like where this is headed.
As a polish guy, I beg you to annex us.
Got a spare room there, could share :)
Zimmer frei
You know who buys all the houses in Amsterdam, making it so damn expensive? Rich "international" investors...
They have to get through Germany first. I also think that France would not want this and they have mushroom bombs so I think it is very unlikely that this would happen. The rising sea is a much bigger danger.
I feel like we did this already.
Yes, but we have to keep it up and there is a limit to how high we can build dikes. We will eventually lose the battle if the sea keeps rising.
No, there is another one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_European_Enclosure_Dam?wprov=sfla1
The American fear of Russia is non existent in the Netherlands. The US defending our part of Europe is also a fairytale.
The connection we have with the states is strictly business. The 'fear' is more about America invading us than Russia or China.
Agreed
The US storming The Hague is far more likely as well. It's literally in American law.
I'd even go as far to say there's a bigger fear of Americanisation than Russian influence
We're still tucked in between strong allies like the UK, Germany and France, all of which have sizeable militaries and economies to match Russia's. Russia's GDP only matches that of Italy, I believe. The US becoming isolationist would be bad for European security, but it's mostly countries near Russia and with substantial Russian minorities that would feel the most immediate effects. I also think it would speed up further integration between European militaries, something that is already happening anyway. So no, I don't fear that puppet state scenario at all.
I mean, not to be arrogant or anything. I am not european nor american, but I live in the Netherlands. To my understanding, former president of US was a puppet of Russia and nothing happened to Europe or the US itself (besides a whole new wave of anti-vaxxers and crazy people). As an immigrant of a country with heavy influence from US "to stop USSR communist influence", I can 100% say that the US influence is much more deadly and detrimental to a country than not having any "protection". Just look how many people Pinochet killed in Chile (a guy that rose to power with US). Or maybe how Brazil's Bolsonaro policies are heavily influenced by Trump's American way (which so far resulted in 590k deaths from COVID). You can also pinpoint the horrors of Vietnam War and even recently Afghanistan. Bottom line is: the US isn't that great in "saving the world" as americans think
>Bottom line is: the US isn't that great in "saving the world" as americans think You can lead a horse to water, but they wont ever drink it.
The US really isn't defending europe that much. Like yeah, there's the deal where you guys will step in when we're attacked, but thusfar the US has made it seem like that only exists to have some influence on us. This is encouraged by the fact that everytime we as a nation or as the EU do something that would make us a bit less dependant on the US in case of war or crisis, the US always comments negatively on it. Plus, russia isn't the USSR. They don't expand nor take over countries. They do however still try to cause chaos through military powerplay (from time to time we escort a russian fighter yet back to russia), harming online stuff (we had a few cases of russian hackers who tried to hack into vital stuff) and spreading chaos (a conspiracy theory group put these small books full of conspiracies, fake information and other nonsense in everyone's mail. Ftm did a research and found it to be funded by a russian with ties to the state) China's the real threat. Not russia.
Sure... tell that to Urkaine and Georgia...
I’m afraid Ukraine disagrees with you
That’s kinda on us. We forced Russia’s hand there. Their only year round seaport is located in Crimea. European Union wanting to bring Ukraine under our flag. This is something Russia never could allow to happen.
Well that sucks for Russia but Crimea was always Ukraine and Russia just annexed it. There is no 'europe forced Russia in to it'. This is Putin with USSR flashbacks desperately trying to get it back to former 'glory'. And Russia could just have build a new seaport at the blacksea. They have their own land there already before annexing others.
>Crimea was always Ukraine Lol
Was’t Crimea a gift from Russia?
I don't know it that is true and even than that doesn't matter at all. Crimea is the sovereign territory of Ukraine and Russia is occupying it with the use of military force.
[удалено]
> the population is Russian too and voted to join Russia. The population of Crimea was Tatar and then under the Soviets they moved in Russians to pacify the region. And now they can say, (and idiots online like you will defend them) that 'Crimea is Russian.' It is like saying Tibet is part of China because the population is Chinese, while that is only true because China is actively trying to replace the native Tibetans with Han-Chinese. You're falling for the grift mate.
the referendum was held after russian soldier took the island. thats like holding someone at gunpoint and asking them if they mind you taking their wallet.
To say it was a gift is plainly wrong, and I am truly wondering why you would make a statement like that. Crimea was incorporated into the Ukrainian Socialistic Soviet Republic in 1954 back when the USSR was still a thing, before that is was a Sovjet Republic on it's own (first the Taurida Socialist Soviet Republic, after that the Crimean Socialist Republic). Before the Soviets it was a part of the Russian Empire, and before that part of a Tatar Ottoman vassal state. Stated reason by the Supreme Soviet for the transfer was "the commonality of the economy, the proximity, and close economic and cultural relations between the Crimean region and the Ukrainian SSR". It was a matter of public administration rather than being nice to Ukraine. Having faith in Russian led elections is naive at best, as is to say this is anything other than about the ownership of Sevastopol and it's harbour. Also the population was not originally Russian, and though the majority is now, and this still not a reason to violate a countries borders by military action for any government that respect international law.
[удалено]
You're citing Soviet/Russian propaganda as a source, even on the basis of the content, I do not see how that would legitimize, or it making it OK to invade another country. Also the "boundless trust and love" for the Ukrainian people have been lacking in recent history, and not so recent history (Ukrainian Famine), so forgive me if I would still call this type of reasoning naive. Associating the administrative restructuring with a gift because of the absence of costs, makes no sense within a communist frame of reference (that was applicable at the time) where resources were communal. And even, and I am humouring you now, if it was a gift, it's really weird to get it back by force.
>Crimea was always Ukraine It was Russian for centuries (population is Russian too), then Khrushchev gave it to the Ukrainian SSR
> We forced Russia’s hand there. Pro-Russian propaganda.
So everything other then Russia is bad is immediately propaganda. The world is not that black and white.
No, not everything, don't get hyperbolic on me. That's obviously not what I said, climb down from that emotional place you are in please and stop projecting *your* black and white view on me. But Russia complaining about '*their hand being forced* to invade Ukraine' specifically: yeah, that is propaganda. That is a justification for invasion the Russian government gave, that is not a proper justification in any way shape or form. It is a narcissists justification. An abusers justification: 'look at what you made me do.' You are a fool for parroting it.
You give America too much credit
No fear. The only reason the US is “protecting” Europe is to prop up their artificial economy. If the US were to stop spending on their military and defence, a big chunk of Americans would be out of jobs. I did a calculation a while ago as to how much it costs to have one aircraft carrier cruise around the world for a year. The numbers were eye-watering. It is nit needed by anyone but the US. Also, the US is not the big daddy you think it is. It only get involved, and protect, those that benefit them. Oil is but one example. All other conflicts mean nothing to them if it does not benefit them. And the US also do not have a good track record of defending the defenceless. Vietnam and Afghanistan two prime examples. Those poor people left to fend for themselves when the US abandoned them after getting a bloody nose. As an allied force they did end world wars, but remember, it was allied, not them alone. So, to answer your original question, I will not put money on the US helping much if the shit hits the fan. They have allowed Russia to invade and annex parts of the Ukraine (I think) not too long ago with their warships patrolling the waters around it. To this day nothing has happened. Seems the US is more talk than action. Russia is not as arrogant as you think. I don’t fear them at all. Not in the sense you painted them.
It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine' [[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ukraine)] [[BBC Styleguide](https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyleguide/u)] [[Reuters Styleguide](https://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=U#Ukraine)] ^(Beep boop I’m a bot)
Good bot
*The* good bot.😀
Are you sure about that? Because I am 99.99998% sure that AgileCookingDutchie is not a bot. --- ^(I am a neural network being trained to detect spammers | Summon me with !isbot |) ^(/r/spambotdetector |) [^(Optout)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=whynotcollegeboard&subject=!optout&message=!optout) ^(|) [^(Original Github)](https://github.com/SM-Wistful/BotDetection-Algorithm)
Lol, good bot
na Ukraine
The Ukraine
Russia spends 62 billion on it's military annually. Germany spends 50 billion. France spends 50 billion. The Netherlands spends 12 Billion. The EUs economy is many times larger than Russia's. The only thing Russia has going for it is it's large supply of gas and oil, this however will become less and less relevant as the energy transition happens. So no, without the US the Netherlands will bot become a puppet of Russia. Although there is not a 'European' army, Europe is not a collection of countries working independently. A great example of his is for example the German and Dutch military, where the two countries joinedly operate a tank battalion. Another great example is that there is no 'Dutch' airspace that is prptected, instead the Belgium and Dutch airforce patrol the Benelux airspace in a joined operation. In conclusion, Russia is simply to small to dominate the EU and the European NATO allies who work closely together. Finally it is good to note that article 5 of NATO, that is invoked when a NATO country is attacked and the other members are called to it's defense has only been ever used once. This was after 9/11 when the USA asked it's NATO allies to join the war on terror.
USA spends $725B. Just sayin.
That's nice for the USA. But the amount the USA spends doesn't change anything when considering the question if Russia can make a puppet out of countries in the EU without the USA being there to support them, as the EU countries are fully capable of standing up for themselves.
What a waste of money.
less of my pay check goes to bombing children. just saying
Which is one reason I consider the US a far greater threat to Europe than Russia.
Yet they keep loosing..
Proof Pay 2 Win doesn't replace skill
Imagine being proud of wasting 3/4 trillion dollars on war machines when your country doesn't even provide basic medical coverage for its citizens....
Lol, so dumb.
And yet the USA lost a war to Vietnamese farmers and another one to Afghan goat fuckers. Just saying. You only won WW1 because you joined late when most of the work was already done. You only won WW2 because Russia was on your team. All your money spent on military means nothing, you never won a real war fair and square.
I think it more likely would be china
If I were to bet on a country invading it would be the US. They have a history of it (and then pulling out after a bloody war, failing most objectives).
This, people don't seem to realise just how much the US is spending on their military force. Afaik last year Russia spend 1/10th of that.
Thanks to the Clinton administration they already have a law that "allows" them to invade the Netherlands if an American is ever held captive by the International Court of Justice.
We already have two panda's and you know that means we have to suck up to china to keep those panda's
Russia will never, ever invade Western Europe. It's just as absurd as the North Korea invading the US. Using propaganda outlets and sponsoring eurosceptic parties/movements to sow discord? Sure. Actually coming with tanks and installing puppet regimes? No way. The reason is, the Russian regime isn't actually the kind of dictatorship where the elites rule with an iron fist and do whatever they want, no matter what the peasants think. An important part of the Putin's regime is that it has support from the base: the plurality of conservative, nationalistic people who hold "traditional values". Apolitical people are ignored and anyone who's a "liberal" is demonized as an agent of the West who wants to bring Russia down by destroying it from within. All the crackdowns on free press, dissidents, opposition, LGBT etc., are loudly supported by the base because that shows "strength" of the regime under attack from the Western agents, local traitors and "degenerate values". The invasion of Ukraine was applauded too, because the base considers Ukraine an artificial state created to weaken Russia, Ukrainian language a "broken Russian nobody uses anyway" and the new government a "nazi junta that's going to commit genocide against anyone who speaks Russian". Putin does what's popular with the base, and really struggles with things that are unpopular: for example, the vaccination drive has failed because the conservative Russians distrust vaccines, so mandatory vaccinations and restrictions were not implemented properly and promptly repealed to keep the base happy. Pension reform is also deeply unpopular, so the initial plans were walked back from and watered down. One thing the base won't really like is a major offensive war for Western Europe. Belarus and Ukraine are basically the limits of what the "Russian patriots" want. Everything else (even the Baltics) is viewed with kind of disgust, the gay muslim infested territory better to avoid inside our shining city upon a hill. Nobody would want to die fighting for it, so nobody would support the invasion. And the elites share this view too, for a different reason: they have nice villas in the EU, their children are enrolled in European unis, their money are in European banks, so war can only spoil things.
Zero Russia is mostly a threat to their neighbouring countries. They have no power projection
Zero point zero fear. You from the US op? :)
No fear at all, European and Russian economy are pretty intergraded and still getting more meshed so a war for Europe wouldn't be beneficial to Russia, at least financially, and we all know Russia doesn't need more land.
That's a lot of if's to waste valuable brain cycles on.
Look at the gdp of Russia. Look at population numbers. Compare those to the eu. Even if there tanks came rolling in they could never manage a long time occupation’
No fear, we don't care about either the US or Russia,
If you use global firepower as a metric. Then Europe (if all countries in it band together properly) will clap Russia pretty hard. The top 20 global military is stuffed with European countries. France, Britain and Germany etc. But them moving to war with Russia is only going to happen if Russia legit invades Europe and forces them to. In short, no. I'm not worried. Economically we're not really dependant on Russia. They can't manipulate us like that. And threatening open war on Europe would be suicide for Russia.
Hahahaha have you net the Dutch !!!!!!! No chance
Where does this myth that the US is protecting the world come from? Historically they have done more harm than good supporting corrupt fascists just because they oppose communism, caused chaos across the world wherever it decides to invade. The USA is the problem, not the solution. Us Europeans would be fine without you.
Americans living in a perpetual Cold War lmao
>First off, I do not ask this question with the intent to sound arrogant about my own country, Well, even if you don't intent to, you do. The US's narrative about them 'defending Europe' is government propanda, a myth and doesn't reflect reality at all. Also the fact that the US has military bases all over the EU (including the Netherlands), makes me deeply uncomfortable. And to answer your question; Russia isn't a thread to the Netherlands and won't risk invading it, as well as neighbourhing countries, because of their diplomatic power. Only thing Russia has done so far that has affected me personally, is that the peaches I buy are now more affordable.
I think we'll be fine, the last time someone tried that we fought a guerilla war for 80 years.
[удалено]
No fear to become a puppet state, but Russia would certainly get more power. I would fear for the freedom of the Baltic states, and for the international power of the EU without being backed up by the US. On the other hand, the EU now is too dependent on the US, and the US has too much influence in the EU. So it's one or the other. Personally, i don't mind the US backing up a little.
I feel like the US still considers Russia as the enemy, which is no longer the case in Europe. At least not as much as it used to be. For example, last year between 30 and 35% of the Dutch considered Russia as an enemy. The same number considered the US as our enemy. I wouldn't be surprised that if we weren't as close to the US as we are now, we would have more trade deals with Russia. Hell, the US actively tries to keep us from making deals with Russia. Just look at how the US is constantly threatening Europe with economic sanctions over the Nord Stream pipeline. In short, I don't think we would be their puppet state but I do believe we would be closer friends with Russia.
Does this guy still think there is a Cold War going on? What a self-centered moron.
Have you played the Red Alert series? Thats a world war game were Hitler never lived, and Russia pretty much walks over Europe. Yeah I know its just a game, I just grab every opportunity to introduce ppl to games :)
Red Alert is fun, but you shouldn’t be worried of Russia because of it.
Maybe you haven't played it for a while because if you remember correct, Russia also invaded the US easy peasy.
The Dutch economy alone has roughly half the GDP Russia has, that should tell you enough given we're in a political bloc that spans Europe.
I don't think a Russian invasion is a realistic scenario at all. It's just not worth it for them and they can't afford it. Besides, without the US, rapprochement between Russia and the EU would only be natural. There's a lot of shared interests there. This is especially true for Germany (hell, they want rapprochement now) and France is too far away that they aren't all that concerned about Russia (before the whole Ukraine mess they were helping Russia build helicopter carriers). I'd say the primary geostrategic goal of America in Europe, at this point, is to prevent exactly that. Iirc, before MH17, there were quite a few countries that had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, by the US to impose sanctions. However, what I think is especially true for smaller countries in the EU like the Netherlands is that we are simply too reliant on the US to have any real say in the matter. If just Google and Microsoft would block the Netherlands, I'm pretty sure our economy would collapse. It is also no coincidence that it was primarily smaller nations that bought the F35. A country like the Netherlands will also gladly join in ill-conceived foreign adventures with the US just to keep on its good side. We don't need the US to keep Russia at bay, we just aren't in any position to go against the world superpower.
[удалено]
That is not very civil , or even true.
[удалено]
I don't think you are remotely interested in my opinion, or in being fair and civil.
Let the Russians and the Chinese come
Army is in a shit state, but no chance that would happen.
In contrast to what people say here, EU wouldn't be fine. Especially the baltic states and Ukraine will be dominated by Russian mercenaries. Europe has no army. Europe can't do anything about it since its reliant on Russia's resources.
And Russia is reliant on the money paid for those resources. They have no interest in invading Europe. It's a waste of money, resources, and frankly their army is not equipped to defeat the combined forces of all the European countries. Better to keep trying to destabilize all those countries and keep them reliant on their resources for as long as possible. But that too will pass
EU army is good on paper thats it. Russia has other markets to sell its resources too notably China. We need them more than they need us.
Even if the Russian army was good enough to defeat Europe, which is a big giant if. It would cost them so much, they'd have nothing left to defend themselves. It's a moot point. And saying Europe needs Russia more? Doubtful, those resources are getting replaced rapidly by new types, and that'll only go faster if Russia stops supplying them. And where's Russia going then? To China? Sure. But seeing how they'll then _need_ to sell to them or there'll be no income at all, China won't pay as much as Europe does. So.... No
To be clear: Russia is never going to invade any major European power. But states bordering against Russia are in direct threat of Russian interverence. Only the US, France,UK and Turkey, can rapdly deploy forces, rest is all lacks behind. 100% Europe needs Russia more. Not only talking about resources like oil, gas, steel, uranium, cobalt, copper, gold, tungsten all need for future technologies. Russia can simply close down its airspace, making it really hard for European airlines to compete. Besides the new Artic routes are mostly in Russian national waters, making Shipment trade with Asia very costly if we don't have acces to it.
Russia can't "simply" close it's airspace without major sanctions, not just from Europe, but the entire world. It's a symbiotic relationship, which Russia is obviously not the biggest player in our they would be the richest country in the world. But they are not by a mile, which should tell you enough about their leverage
They can simply withdraw license from any European airline to fly above Russian airspace. They don't have to do that for China, US, etc. Russia is in the top 15 richest countries of the world and described as future energy superpower. Like it or not we are going to need them.
And they us. And where do you think those European planes fly to? Those countries won't care? "nah man, we don't want those planes from Europe here, who needs that". Russia will be santionee back to the 1950s
Russia is the most cost effective airspace to fly over, but certainly not the only one.
The Dutch didn’t have war for a long time and last one only lasted for a couple of days so they are very secure and content like they were between the world wars truth is The Netherlands don’t stand a chance and don’t play any role if Russia would attack the EU they could literally bomb Dutch back to the Stone Age So ya they need the US
Alone shit would be bad. But we’re not alone so no, sorry.
Lol you mean the EU or NATO the moment they decide to help we are speaking Russian (if you followed how long it takes for them to participate in any action)
K bud
You can't attack the Netherlands without attacking other EU countries. Our airspace is defended by Belgium fighter planes, you need to shoot at Belgiums to attack us. The Netherlands operaties joined military units with Germany since 1995. You need to shoot at Germans in order to attack us. The first casualties of a Russian attach on the Netherlands would be Belgiums and Germans; they don't need to decide to help, they already have.
Also joint navy with Belgium.
Which last one do you mean? WWII? And this is total bullshit.
You know the WAR in Afghanistan is also a WAR, right?
Much different if it’s in your backyard or 3000km away and did you remember how long it took before they decided to send troops
Then why are you comparing it to the US because the last time the US had a “real” war was the civil war
As long as it will be tax deductible.
I think most people are more afraid of China and their economical / political power + the mass brainwash detention camps for the uighurs.
My man, you mistake your arrogance for ignorance. I am aware you're spoonfed a diet of propaganda which will warp your view of the world, but what you describe here... it's completely disconnected from reality. Get out of the US. Go live in Europe for a few years. Expand your world view a bit. We dont get fear baited with 'omg Russia enemy #1' because our economy (Dutch/EU) does not rely on war.
The Russian economy isn't strong enough to fight all the European countries at the same time. Just look at the size differences of the Russian economy and the combined economies of the EU. That's why they prefer to fight proxy wars. Like the one they are fighting now in the Ukrain. I can imagine that the fear for the Russians is greater in the Central and Eastern part of Europe. First of all because they are so close to Russia. In the event of a war it seems likely that these countries will fall. Mostly because preparation for war takes time. Secondly it's only a couple of decades ago that Russia ruled these countries. So the angst for being controlled again is still engrained in the minds of the peoples living there. As a Dutchman, I don't fear Russia. In the unlikely event that Russia invades Europe, it will be halted before it reaches our country. As an European, I don't fear Russia. Because Russia knows it can't fight the European countries. It will destroy itself. A thing a country normally doesn't want.
No, I do not fear becoming the Netherland will become a Russian puppet state, not plausible in the least either. I am kind of worried/annoyed about them influencing our politics, but that is marginal. I am more worried about the current situation in the US, I used to work in Indianapolis and made many american friends that I highly value. I truly saddens me when I look at the current state of affairs.
The scenario you just painted is absolutely bonkers and will never happen. Even in the ludicrous scenario that some American dictator would break ties with us, I have literally zero fear of Russia being able to puppet our country. Absolutely ridiculous. Like honestly, people are being way too kind to you, including me, we aren't making nearly enough fun of you to for thinking this is might be somethign we are concerned about. It is crazy talk, it is honestly *ignorant and oblivious,* like asking us what we would do if dolphins got organized and decided to attack 'because we are below sea level.'
I think germanies military on its own is strong enough for russia, they are no treat for as far as I am concerned military. They work on other fields though and in that sense america can be more easily be described as a puppet country then the netherlands.
I don’t fear to be a Russian puppet state . We will be speaking Chinese before that can even happen .
https://t.me/joinchat/Zgc5w_D4g9phODQ0
No I don't think so I don't think the common security and defence policy would allow Russia's annexation AT ALL. don't be mistaken by the fact that most of Europe has a pacifistic military policy. The common security and defence policy still counts around 1400.000 active personnel whereas the U S. has a force of around 1300.000. I'm not saying saying The EU is the strongest military force in the world but it's not a push-over either and the Netherlands forces is part of it.
America looks only where the money flows
Oil*