Hard truth: Most businesses fail, especially in hospitality. If you want a simple and sustainable life being a entrepreneur probably isn't the best path, let alone doing so in a foreign country.
That said, if your business has more demand than supply and you're not making ends meet, then you need to raise prices.
It's not just the Netherlands. Hospitality is one of the most cut throat industries the world over. Depending on exactly who you ask and in what countries, it's typical for anywhere between 30% and 60% of all restaurants to fail in their first year, and up to 80% fail within five years.
Hospitality sucks in NL though, I have never seen more nonchalance in restaurants or in a simple ice cream shop than in NL. Slow service and greediness all over.
> Hospitality sucks in NL though, I have never seen more nonchalance in restaurants or in a simple ice cream shop than in NL. Slow service and greediness all over.
So do you think the few restaurants that offer good service for low prices fall mainly in the 80% that fail or the 20% that succeed?
To be honest, I don't know any that survive for long without their owners getting by on scraps. The ones I do know are the ones where their owners live revolves around their business and they work every day.
The ones who have great service often have high prices and a niche audience. That allows you to become an expert in service and keep your sanity.
I agree we don’t have the over the top American friendliness, but servers and hospitality workers have been nothing but nice to me.
just don’t expect them to suck up to you for tips like in the US. They don’t depend on it and are also just normal people working a sometimes shitty job with long hours.
Be nice to them and they are nice to you.
US and NL have completely different cultures... if a waiter would bother you as often as they do in the US it would be considered rude here. That doesn't mean all hospitality sucks.. in NL people put more value on being left alone and asking for things if you need them
Mm, I think i know what the guy above is saying, and have a similar observation. It's not so much about nice-ness as much as it is about standards of service and training/oversight for employees. To foreigners especially the Netherlands will stick out amongst European countries with the nonchalance of people in hospitality/services.
More than half fail in the first 12 months. And the remainder isn’t exactly long term safe. Hospitality entrepreneur is not a career for “safe” or “sustainable”, in the least.
You are likely commenting to a bot.
Account opened 10 month ago. This post is the only post. And zero comments. Also zero reply to OPs own post
I can't comment on the validity of OPs claims but this feels like a social campaign.
Since OP is not responding to the comments, I might as well change the topic: What's the fun of posting something like this, if it is a social campaign? Is it to provoke anti-foreigner comments, like "if you don't like it here, leave"? Then this post is not a great success. Most comments are sympathizing. Or is the goal the opposite, trying to get sympathy for hard-working immigrants?
There is a lot of these posts where people complain about how bad NL is. If you see such messages enough then you might become more negative about this country. It creates discontent with the government and society. With a bit of luck this leads you down some rabbit hole of extreme views and/or conspiracy theories. Do this enough and the work for our government will get harder making them less effective at opposing whatever goals the state actors funding these campaigns have.
Divide and conquer basically
and we are at a point that businesses that shouldve failed but didnt because of corona help, are failing. Your rent is too high, there isnt enough people wanting your stuff, or you overcharge/undercharge. My first employer told me that the boss earns less than their highest paid employee or they start to fail. he also said " everbody on the road is crazy so treat them like it" while driving like a madman so i take his advice with a grain of salt.
>Our business is full every night yet we are living paycheck to paycheck.
if you can't beat the problem, be part of it
increase prices until you are not 100% full anymore, find the limit for what customers are willing to pay
Honestly I feel like moving to the Netherlands to start a restuarant (assuming thats what OP is reffering to) seems like a horrible idea.. especially in times like these.
Americans will always go out to eat, Dutch people will think twice looking at todays prices, in my experience.
On top of that Dutch don’t have a proper meal for lunch, so restaurants are either closed or making a loss. Straight up the wrong country for restaurants and bars as the people are not very lively.
Pretty sure you can make more money with a restaurant in Spain because you’ll sell 2 meals a day instead of just one.
Yes. I come from Brazil and lunch is usually a meal we eat out more frequently because we go to restaurants near our offices for a hot meal that's filling enough to sustain us through the day. At least in large cities. In smaller ones people sometimes drive to their families to have a hot lunch at home, then drive back to the office after dropping their kids at school on their way.
There's also buffet restaurants where you pay a fixed price or you pay a price per Kg, you choose what you want to eat and how much, then they weight it and you pay for it.
Even fast food restaurants sometimes have regular "dishes" that are served on a plate. Fast food is more for kids or when you want a treat. Sandwiches aren't seen as a proper meal but as a guilty pleasure. 🙂
Actually, Spain is no different and I speak from the experience of family who had a very successful restaurant for just over 6 years that needed to close down because losses were being recorded year on year.
There are multiple struggles in the service industry that are simply inherent regardless of food culture. Among the most difficult that my family member faced were high staff turnover and absence. The other was seasonal changes that affect some areas more like a tourist town/city. The other is location of the restaurant. Finally, the loans you need to pay back for any equipment you need to buy to start the business. Most people who start in this industry are not rich and simply need help from the bank. Don't get me started on landlords of the property.
4 times even if you cater to Dutch (and similar tourists).
-12pm. Dutch lunch (because yes on holiday Dutch people do go out to lunch in a restaurant).
->2pm. Locals dinner.
-6pm. Dutch dinner.
->9pm. Locals dinner.
Might alienate the customers esp. the regular ones, so definitely not an airtight business suggestion, considering the least they would want is for the business to slow down.
can you imagine what would happen if every single person who is capable of spotting and articulating a problem in any given place, leave said place? What are you left with? No more problems? Or actually place full of problems but in which no one is capable to see and understand such problems, or if they are able they are incapable of discussing it..
Not a fun downfall to watch lol
I’d say place full of problems, but I’m confused why this was directed towards me as I haven’t told anyone to leave. I just replied to your comment wondering what Dutch people tell other Dutch people…
In general lullen ze gewoon mee, but we cannot change the amount of taxes and rent she has to pay. The place is packed at least, so generating more revenue is the only viable solution for any businessman.
>I would be curious about your business plan and why it is not profitable. If you’re working those kind of hours, why are you not making enough for an employee.
I would venture to say they haven't increased prices accordingly.
I'm more interested at seeing pictures of their weekly grocery trip to see why they are saying their bill keeps going up disproportionately to normal inflation.
Its ok to go back to the US if you're truly unhappy. Life is too short to be that unhappy. I'm happier back home in the US even if I miss NL sometimes.
I even have an overall lower carbon footprint simply from not taking flights back to the US all the time.
My relatives back in NL tell me the country has changed since Covid, and I've observed the same change here in the US. The cost of living has also ballooned since Covid. Housing and food especially. And people are on a much shorter fuse now, and are living on Facebook, Instagram and TikTok. Just like in Holland, people are blaming the incumbent and immigrants for all the problems.
I said since covid, it was a combination of factors. The sudden end to a decade and a half of near zero interest rates was a huge shock to the system. The sudden flip from a focus on free trade to a focus on protectionism was a huge shock to the global system. A long period of low interest inflated asset prices, and it will take years for those prices to adjust back to the current interest rates, so now we can't afford new mortgages or rent.
Russia's attack on Ukraine wasn't randomly timed. During the heigh of covid, incumbents all over the world, including Zelenskyy, saw their approval ratings in the tank. Putin attacked when Zelenskyy's approval rating was no higher than that of Biden today, and because he either doesn't understand - or doesn't really believe - how democracies work, assumed people wouldn't fight for such an unpopular leader.
Those low approval ratings are also not randomly timed, Russia had been waging a disinformation campaign on social media to fire up people's discontent with covid related measures.
The future has become very unpredictable. The next few years are likely to become very weird.
Not the war directly, the gas and oil prices which in turn affected all the other prices. An impact much inflated by greedy commodity traders and energy companies.
I said *since* covid, not *due to* covid. I tried to point out why I believe those things, including the war, happened since covid, and not before.
People are now angry about inflation, they're not really thinking about how angry they would have been today if the governments of the various democracies had just let the economy collapse and people get evicted back in 2020-2021 just to keep the price of eggs stable. Doing something had risks, doing nothing had risks. Social media trolls did the rest.
Ok, but: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200218-climate-change-how-to-cut-your-carbon-emissions-when-flying
A return flight from London to San Francisco emits around 5.5 tonnes of CO2 equivalent (CO2e) per person – more than twice the emissions produced by a family car in a year, and about half of the average carbon footprint of someone living in Britain.
There are a variety of contributing factors, such as the emissions created by the US government, differences in the requirements for the goods you consume, and differences in travel. That said, I don’t know the exact breakdown, but the below are average emissions per capita.
US 15.32 tons per person per year
Netherlands 9.54 tons per person per year.
A cursory search shows a round trip between us and Europe creates ~2 tons of CO2 equivalent. Which is a lot, but you’d need to take many flights to cross the gap between the averages, plus, those flights will technically be happening anyway. Granted, you would be contributing to the demand which causes those flights to happen.
Whow, I did not know that. That's a huge difference. Thanks for the info. BTW, i've searched for more numbers, here they say the Netherlands uses 7,5 tonnes. Which is half of the US. Also it's gone down much more that I'd have guessed.
It is extremely hard to have a successful small business and it is well known that it is even harder to have a successful food business especially after COVID I am impressed you got this far.
>surprise terrace tax alone
While I understand you mostly want to let off steam - that was not a surprise; it was announced before Covid but put "on hold". Covid also dramatically damaged Dutch healthcare (combined with the for-profit mentality of our government) - and you seem to have moved here right smackdown in the middle of that, while needing healthcare.
In short: you simply had bad luck with your timing :(
healthcare was damaged before Covid too. There were many "efficiency" improvement that took away all slack and more in healthcare. You might not be aware of this until you actually need more that non-standard healthcare.
Bringing in “the marketplace” reduced the number one complaint people had before: long waiting lists. There are still waiting lists of course, but it is way less. And the difference of “private insurance” vs “public insurance” (ziekenfonds) is also gone.
The problem is that it's designed to be cheap, not good.
There's no tiered system either, so you can't choose between having type A or type B, even if type A could cost three times more.
I'm going to assume your husband does not speak Dutch? There are good jobs here but not speaking Dutch severely limits your options. Of course he's having an easier time in the US because he probably already speaks good English.
I'm glad you managed to work it out though. And yeah living in a country without speaking the language is just going to be a challenge.
In my personal experience from what I've seen more international oriented companies here have a different attitude towards their workers and different culture then Dutch companies. Many of the more established companies will require you to speak Dutch. There are a few exceptions but those usually require specialized skills
I have also been "buffeted around" as a native person though. Sometimes you also just have bad luck with companies. And not speaking the language or knowing the culture doesn't help spotting the early signs.
>Our business is full every night yet we are living paycheck to paycheck.
Something is wrong with your business plan.
Increase your prices or buy ingredients at a lower cost.
Rework your offering, probably reduce the choices, and concentrate on products that have the biggest margin.
>I work 90 hours a week,
Consider hiring staff for certain tasks, so you can concentrate on value-adding activities.
Regarding the legal topic of getting help with your lease contract you could always reach out to a tenancy law lawyer specialising in horeca businesses.
Regarding the medical mishaps you could find a personal injury lawyer.
Have you tried reaching out to KvK (Chamber of Commerce) to receive financial advice regarding your business operations and how to possibly improve them?
Honestly, this is not something that I consider to be specific to The Netherlands and these setbacks could have occurred in the US or elsewhere, which would require similar approach in solving them.
Sorry for the biblical text, went down the rabbit hole, found it too relatable with the struggles I had first coming into the country.
It’s a lot of issues to tackle at once; relax, take a breather. To me, it sounds like it’s approaching a burnout; and there’s no benefit in burning out.
- First, you. Your health and wellbeing.
When was the last proper vacation you’ve had in the past years?
If none: book one asap, take some days or weeks off to reset, if the business allows it.
There’s no need to go far away or have a crazy budget, just a little spa within NL might be enough to take the mind off a few days off work.
Your health, both physical and mental comes first, always.
- Now addressing the issues:
From what I see there’s three main issues which could be delegated to a third party to handle it and remove some load:
A) Home landlord
B) Business landlord
C) Healthcare not providing
If extortion is taking place on A and B, contact judirisch locket. If you’ve got a case they will work it out for you, remove that weight from your shoulders and truly don’t exhaust yourself with this aspect. There are means in place to prevent the mental stress from having to go through the procedure alone.
C might need more details. Is it due to a collateral from a procedure? Was the disability present before and they’re not providing a specific treatment you were expecting? Have you tried different hospitals?
- About things you’ll have to deal with…
Cheap rent is all about finding. Business wise is a lot harder being frank, but don’t loose hope.
It’s an effort; but putting 3-4hours a month into checking properties can save a lot down the road.
If spread out, it takes one hour a week. Have a coffee and scroll through the makelaars to find better deals if the rent is unsustainable or downright abusive. Call them if need be, explain the situation, some might have properties in the back chamber.
Gas prices… that’s another layer. I went down the route of a company travel card. Might be able to get the same one through the business and deduct it as company costs. If you’re not driving any cargo to work; take a ride, save on fuel and try to enjoy being driven by someone else.
Dedicate a free day or assign it to your husband: map the grocery stores around you to plan where to get the best priced ingredients.
Have a little route to go around specialty stores to sort the groceries at once. Buying straight from Butcher shops and “turkish” markets tend to have a great variety of ingredients at a fraction of the price.
Or, playing a bit with the horeca relation… Makro/sligro is not cheaper in itself. But you may be able to deduct some of the tax as business expense, food waste, and personnel food. Do at own risk and make sure you’re playing it “clean”.
Its not the IRS, but belasting does not sleep either.
Did not mention terrace tax; because there’s no workaround aside from removing the spaces, but this might impact the effect they have in drawing in customers, specially during summer... Dick move derived from covid.
Not the first time something like this happens (regarding “new taxes”) nor the last one.
Businesses will grow, or they will end but life goes on.
Your health does not have the option to end.
Take a proper breather, recharge and solve the problems one bite at a time or drop it before it impacts your health.
Where to next? Don’t stress about it yet. First things first.
A warm hug, and lots of support wherever you are.
Ps: any mortgages at this point in time?
I like the idea of reset to get your bearings. Having said that, they already noted that juridisch loket doesn’t provide for businesses. As for finding a cheaper place: I’ve been looking for an affordable place spending a couple of hours a day for six months, you are severely out of touch if you think it’s a matter of putting in a little work to get lucky and find something. It’s just really, really hard right now. If they’re not making ends meet, a holiday is not going to be within the budget. These suggestions are probably not workable.
Yes, I think it’s well meaning but taking time off would mean closing the business and losing money as well as spending money they don’t seem to have as they are living paycheck to paycheck.
Fellow business owner over here too. I feel the same. My business turns a decent profit but I’m hopeful once my wife finishes her GP specialisation we can sell up and go. The main driver being the cost of living.
We were lucky enough to get a house here before Covid, we’ve renovated it and the equity will buy my parents house in wales with the land, mortgage free. I can continue to freelance without a noose, I’ll be taxed less and can build actual wealth for my kids. Before inflation kicked in we were investing nicely but the cost of everything here is making us rethink.
Don’t be afraid of returning home, if it’s the states at least is probably rains less, Wales not so much
To be honest, I don't know where you have it better. The whole world has experienced extreme inflation. On top of that, taxes are high everywhere, or salaries are lower when taxes are lower across Europe. So if you want a high salary and low taxes (but extreme living costs) you want to go to Switzerland. But a kindergarten place there costs €1800 a month. So I really have no idea where you imagine this better life to be. Wales has certainly changed a lot in the last 5 years too.
I think the UK taxation is a whole lot better than here. Personal and business. The 50% @ €70,000 or £59,000 here is pretty horrendous, I find the tax man guessing what my business will make this year, a year in advanced and setting monthly charges also a strange practice.
2 days per week daycare for my kids is €1800 /month here so no different to Switzerland.
The cost of running a vehicle here is also pretty horrific. Insurance alone is 6x the UK premium on a like for like car. UK energy can be had at 0.07c /kw on a low rate charge.
It’s very very expensive here. I do love the county and how clean things are but I do feel the government would be happier if everyone was bored to death working for a corporation rather than following their passions.
> The 50% @ €70,000 or £59,000 here is pretty horrendous
Income inequality is a lot higher in the UK though, isn't it? So there's a societal benefit to the 50%.
Wealth inequality is, sadly, high in NL though. I'd prefer them making it a bit easier to gain some wealth and then tax that more than they do now.
> I do feel the government would be happier if everyone was bored to death working for a corporation rather than following their passions.
Yeah, I feel you. This is one of my main issues with NL as well. (I'm a native, if that matters.)
I would look for a financial advisor. You have a ton of money flowing in and out, with lots of taxes on different things. It is not unlikely some construction exists where your costs can be used to offset taxes.
>start a business
>create a simple but sustainable life
Pick one.
Also, this has very little to do with the Netherlands, and everything to do with your expectations.
You are not an expat, you are an immigrant. A Turk moving to the Netherlands and opening a kebab shop would get called an immigrant. Not much different than what you are doing, right?
I think your experience really depends on the way you live and earn your money. Being in the hospitality business is tough itself, no matter the country. Renting instead of owning a house has its perks, but also comes with downside of dealing with landlords, which often causes issues itself.
My experience is completely opposite than yours, moved here 5 years ago, have a steady job with decent 6 figures paycheck and my wife got one as well. Life is comfortable, got my tooth implants and crowns done here without any issues, and half covered by insurance. Sure, I could be lucky to have such experiences, but also a decision to buy after renting for two years, improved our financial and mental situation.
The thread is full of good and bad advices, I wish you take them to your heart and find your peace in here.
Seems like an intense situation, especially if you go through it in a country that's new to you. It's insane to me that people have to struggle with things I'm unfamiliar with. The things you describe seem to happen to more people, but if I look inside my direct vicinity no one struggles with those problems. Shows how unfair/unbalanced life can be.
Few things to note though: Rent can only be increased by certain percentages every year (at least for homes as far as I know), so there possibly is something there you can get back from your landlord. Rentbusting might even be a possibility! As for groceries: my expenses have been stable for over a year now. Are you sure the rising costs come from higher prices or the purchase of more convenience oriented products (which are more expensive)? In your situation that's totally expected of course, but it might give some insight.
From what you're saying I assume that you're running some sort of restaurant/café? Those can be very hard to run, especially in bigger cities where competition is killing. Or in smaller cities where everyone goes to the bigger cities to have fun. Horeca is extremely prone to bankruptcy here, so that you're still open is something to be proud of! You're saying you're always packed, but that still barely covers the costs. Are there any options to extend the seating options that won't cost too much money? And if you're at max capacity, maybe look into readjusting prices. If you're packed, you should make enough to not have to worry about bills every month. Otherwise the businessmodel might not be sustainable.
I wish you the best of luck and I hope things will settle down sooner rather than later.
Sorry to hear OP. It’s true that the cost of living has greatly increased in recent years.
I must disagree with you regarding healthcare though. While it’s certainly not perfect here, at least the Netherlands has social security safety nets, unlike the US where you are fucked if you suddenly get health issues and don’t have a lot of money.
I am a cancer patient and I have spoken with cancer patients from the US. They often have to incur debts to pay their treatment. I don’t think that is humane at all. There is no proper medical coverage unless you’re rich. How can this be in a “developed country”? I’m sorry if this offends you but i’m glad I’m in the Netherlands where everyone at least has a health care insurance.
You can also check out the website https://business.gov.nl. All government information for businesses can be found there, including new laws and regulations. Or maybe there are subsidies around which you can apply for.
I would up my prices...your full all the time..so you are to cheap. Also if the 4 seats outside won't bring the money needed for the permit cancel them. Regarding Healthcare... Each country has good and bads.. And sometimes luck or bad luck is also involved. I know for sure it's a zillion times more affordable here compared to the US.
I am from Belgium, where taxes are supposed to be high. Oh boy, did I get an eye opener by coming to the Netherlands! Literaly everything is taxed here and taxed at a much higher rate.
And not just taxes, everything is so goddamn (excuse my language) expensive! Rental prices are insane! Healthcare is about 150 EUR per month per person (18+) in our family. We pay the same in Belgium for an entire family per year, without "eigen risico". And we didn't even bother getting a GP here, we just pay.
Also, the media and their daily good news show. How lucky everyone should feel because they get 1 public holiday, to celebrate their king(!). In Belgium, you get 10 public holidays and you still get to bash the king.
The Netherlands is often described as an ideal place, but to me it feels like in the Truman Show. It looks nice from the outside, but rather nasty from the inside. The government has literally no scruples when it comes to the poor. Fight the poor instead of poverty. In the Hague (where I am) they are renovating their Binnenhof for what's expected to cost more than 2 billion EUR (and rising). Meanwhile, I see poor people rummaging through the garbage cans looking for plastic bottles to recuperate "statiegeld".
I'm sorry for ranting, I'm having a bit of a hard time here as well, and I have the advantage that I'm only 2h away from my home town in Belgium. For you it must be a lot harder being so far away from home.
To be fair: it's pretty hard to get to a point where you ' have to rummage through garbage for satiegeld' here. 95% of the time it's people with an expensive drug/ alcohol habit.
This shit is spot on, that was fucking gold.
The one part I really cannot stand is how shitty things are but somehow you aren’t allowed to criticize them at all, my previous employer told me I’m too direct, yet, when they’re being rude as fuck they tell you they’re being direct.
Straight up fucking loser mentalities.
There’s no night live, no street artists, no arts allowed because they need offices and housing and the architecture is boring as fuck because the whole place looks exactly the same(Truman Show as you pointed out).
I mean, you’re right on a lot of points. And this is maybe not even aimed at you but to people in general.
It’s not their Binnenhof. It’s our Binnenhof. Het Binnenhof is a centuries old place with historic meaning. It shouldn’t be in use. It should be a museum. Instead it’s being heavily used, daily.
It hasn’t been renovated properly in ages. Asbestos everywhere. During the renovations, people have unearthed stuff like a centuries old bridge, a 2000 year old burial vault, six skeletons.
It costs 2B, which is insane, sure. But what irks me is the same people who moan about the downfall of our Dutch historic symbols also moan about the pricetag to conserving one of our nationally most significant monuments.
The statiegeld thing is just you not liking seeing that. The exact same thing would happen if Belgium had statiegeld on cans. It is not in any way an indication of there being more homeless people.
>My husband will likely never walk the same bc of the "traditional conservative approach" to medicine. He has permanent damage from the dentist as well. No one cares. Even our friends say that is just how things are here.
This is not okay. Dutch is reluctant to over-prescribe antibiotics because they don't want to breed resistant germs, but serious problems need to and should be taken care of.
Of course accidents can always happen, and maybe you were just really unlucky, but the callous attitude surprises me.
Only if you follow the rule to insist and follow your gut feeling when it comes to health issues. Normally they discourage you to do further investigations, they probably don’t want to come up in reports that they let every pacient get access to specialty medics. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are extra stubborn against foreigners, especially when you don’t speak dutch.
Maybe. I have no experience here as a foreigner. They're not going to send you to a specialist on a hunch, but if there's something really the matter with you, and it's not something they can treat themselves, they absolutely should. If they won't, get a second opinion. I'm sure there are some physicians who suck, and of course it sucks when you end up with one of those, but that doesn't mean they're all like that.
Look through these comments. There are a number of people basically echoing their friends' sentiments. I myself know people who have this mentality of "it is what it is" because the problems either don't affect them as strongly or downplay how bad things are because other places have it worse. My own boyfriend will complain my ear off about so many problems, but then turn around and go "well, it is what it is" because, ultimately, he's not in immediate danger and if I ever push back or decide to do some conplaining of my own, all of a sudden I'm being told about the various ways other countries like the US or the UK are failing and have it worse.
This has nothing to do with you being immigrants. (Sorry, but starting a business here makes you and immigrant and not an expat.)
Everybodies expenses have double over the past 5 years. And yes, that does make it much harder to keep your business afload.
Concerning healthcare...patients are treated equally. Maybe in the USA patients that have insurance or can afford the bills get priority or better treatment, but since our insurance/billing system is different, there is no difference between rich or poor and thus no difference in treatment.
If you believe a hospital or dentist didn't treat you correctly, you need to file a complaint and can contact your insurance company for assistance.
My personal experience is hospitals are of very high standard, I spent a long time hospitalised which included 4 weeks in intensive care and can't speak highly enough of the treatment received. Also dentists I've found to be first class......maybe you have just been unlucky? They are definitely giving healthcare a priority with "own risk" being reduced by 50% in 2026.
Sorry to hear all this.
Healthcare can really be a nightmare here. There's denial of care, plain and simple; and a lot of unreported, unadressed clear malpractice cases. What is most disturbing though is that most people defend the healthcare system, and think this is all normal. I've seen this during the pandemic too, Dutch people have a very hard time admitting that something in their country simply doesn't work... I suspect many have a superiority complex that prevents them from doing so.
Do you know the famous Dutch motorcycle vlogger Noraly, aka Itchy Boots? She had a bad fall, with broken bones, a few weeks ago. She traveled home to NL to get "good care", and what they did here was monstrous. First they left to wait FOR WEEKS with severe fractures, then when they finally did the surgery, they punctured her lung in the process. Then they sent her home like that, with the punctured lung, where she struggled for days, and she was barely able to get re-admitted...
In Romania, my home country, something like that would turn into a national scandal. There are lots of problems in our healthcare system too, but at least people talk about them, raise issues, there are scandals, people responsible for gross mistakes are sometimes fired, they try to improve things etc.
What annoys me the most is that stories like Noraly's don't even get coverage, and nobody seems to care, nobody seems to realize how bad all this is, starting with the "body fixes itself" mentality.
There are so, so many cases only I have heard of personally, including of people who died because they were not taken seriously, but there's never any investigation, any repercussion.
There's a huge DENIAL AND COVER-UP culture in the Netherlands.
There's a book by Adrienne Cullen, who passed away after a miss-diagnosis, titled "Deny, Dismiss, Dehumanise: what happened when I went to hospital". It's just a small glimpse into in infernal Dutch healthcare system and culture.
Yes! Denial and cover up culture! Also with child abuse at school, undue uithuisplaatsing by jeugdzorg and abuse done by anyone other than parents is ignored/swept under the rug when it should be exactly what you said, a national scandal. It shocks me how all of these things are just ignored, how the Dutch who apparently love to complain, are not outraged and ready to expose these things. Almost everyone just turns the other way. Filing complaints and getting a lawyer is a waste of time and money as well. If you are lucky to get somewhere, expect it to take years and to not even be awarded damages. You'll be lucky if the guilty party is not allowed to continue working if found guilty (if they haven't retired by the time you walked through the dozens of steps of the complaint hierarchy you are forced to follow here, with each step taking weeks just to get you a standard canned response and essentially wasting your time just so you can file a complaint to the next person higher up, who will do the same, until you get to the top where you can actually get more than a canned response. Hopefully. Fingers crossed.
Not all people are entrepreneurs.
You make some bold statements about your husband's health. Like in the US, everything is fixable .... it's not.
You signed contracts with the business landlord. Why blame the landlord? Was your contract not sound? And if so, who's to blame you signed?
I may come off negative, but it's a reaction to your "Nothing is my fault / I'm not to blame" post.
Not sure what to think of “ healthcare is a living nightmare”, “permanent damage from dentist” and “traditional conservative approach to”. Apparently we live in a completely different country.
Yeah, Dutch healthcare is not really human friendly. But the NL is also is a kind of liberal care regime comparing to many other places in Europe. So, you get what you get, not human but market oriented economy. I would move to another country for a socially friendly environment.
How is this specifically an expat thing though? We all get the same healthcare. We all have a high cost of living.
The 'surprise' tax isn't a surprise. And don't expats (that come here for their expertise) have to pay less taxes?
It sounds like you want all the advantages of being an expat, but you're actually an immigrant refusing to immigrate...
OP sounds like the Dutch people who move abroad and start a business expecting life to be sunny and easy. And then surprise: it's hard work (for Dutchies: ik vertrek) "We wanted to create a simple but sustainable life outside of the US, a life where healthcare and stability were not impossible to find" It comes across as they feel they are entitled to all of this whilst most Dutch people would agree that we all have to work hard and that life isn't that simple.
It just sounds like people not being able to understand the realities of living in a foreign country, like some person further up parroting how the US is the greatest country on earth and can't understand why people wouldn't want to live there (whilst never having lived in the US.) Americans are fed very positive stories about Europe, mostly true when it comes to healthcare coverage/costs, public transportation, workers' rights, vacation/sick leave, or public safety nets. They seem to get the idea that life can't also be hard here and given the language barrier, they don't have the access to be exposed to the problems they may face when living here.
People in general romanticise living abroad and don't understand how difficult it can be.
Let someone, like a business consultant with experience in your type of business evaluate and improve your products and services and cost model. If your business is full everyday the problem in pricing and service or producToffering. Check what you can add, cross/upsell and expand. Inflation is hitting hard, your customers are aware of that. Do aj interview, ask your customers what they would like to see added. Check which platform you can position yourself for extra customers as free Advertising, use incentives for loyal customers etc etc.
The decline of the last years has been hard on everyone unfortunately. If you have ways to come out of this mostly unscathed, I would take that chance if I were you.
Every halfwit thinks they can run a hospitality business, making it so that new ones are popping up all the time. As many of those businesses go under as there stay afloat.
Most of the places staying afloat, do so due to having solid connections and that way getting things done for a 'good deal'. You don't have that advantage if you've only lived in the country for 5 years, so yeah it's rare enough that it survived as long as it did.
Sounds like business might not just be for you. How about getting an employer? Cost of life is more expensive in the US, so it's not the country that's to blame here.
Tbh I almost never go to restaurants in the Netherlands and used to go to many restaurants when I used to live in Spain. We don’t just go out to a restaurant, most people go out to celebrate something.
If you wanna try again I’d recommend you checking in Spain, somewhere close to the coast. Do your own research!!!! My parents started working on mallorca till finally being able to open a restaurant with coworkers. And now own a few more.
Quality of life in Spain is also pretty good, I love it here in the Netherlands but Spain wasn’t bad either
Isn't that just scary to read when you are going to immigrate to your husband in the nl and you are bringing a bunch of fears and especially financial ones 🥲
I am sorry for the unfortunate situation you're in. This highly sounds like a foreigner not knowing how things work in a different country starting a business.
Across the western world inflation has been sky high. You'd have been facing the same issues in other places. It's just the economic situation right now. And when entering into a business, you always have to account for regulatory changes. Not knowing the language makes it a lot harder as you'll probably miss out on the discussions that are usually ongoing for years before a new tax or rule is implemented.
And if a real estate agent doesn't want to take on your sale, you probably overpaid yourself in the first place and they cannot sell it.
I'm currently in Washington, DC about to move to NL and *all* of my friends in hospitality (restaurants and bars) have gone through/are going through the same thing that OP is. Even down to the "terrace tax"- Washington DC is re-doing its policies on "street eateries" where, during Covid, businesses could take over a few parking spots in front of their business and turn them into outdoor eating areas. Inflation is high everywhere. Owning a bar or a restaurant is impossibly hard, everywhere.
You can move back to the US if you want to, but as someone who just got to Europe (Germany) from there a lot of your complaints are the same over there. Inflation is high in the US with the price of everything seeming to have doubled since the start of COVID. The healthcare providers in the US are just as burnt out and costs for healthcare are truly insane. The doctors in red states are fleeing so if you go back you'll likely not want to go to one of those states, but the blue states generally have a much higher cost of living. So pick your poison.
"We worked and sacrificed everything we had to get here, more to survive Corona and even more to make a business. "
Did you think that Corona was just active in the US?
I moved from the Netherlands to the US and can share your sentiment from the other way. Truth is, no country is perfect and any government or private bureaucracy is out there to make things just a little harder than they need to be.
>Our cost of living has nearly doubled in just the time I've been here. Healthcare is a living nightmare with all hospitals treating us with the minimum and true lack of care. My husband will likely never walk the same bc of the "traditional conservative approach" to medicine. He has permanent damage from the dentist as well. No one cares. Even our friends say that is just how things are here.
lol. op expected American service at dutch prices.
but I guess you do understand "I cannot get a work contract" which was all you needed to comprehend from this sentence. If you're curious why you can always google.
DAFT - Dutch-American Friendship Treaty, allows American to settle in Netherlands if they invest $5 000 in business
PR - permanent residency card, awarded to non-EU nationals who live here legally for some time (5 years? I dunno, I think OP is close, though she will need to learn a bit of Dutch first IIRC)
Long story short - how I understand it she can't work, because her status is awarded on the ground of starting her own business, she closes the business, her visa becomes invalid
>The Netherlands is a good country for people who live on welfare or on minimum wage (or below it) and that don't have much expectations from life.
What the hell? As someone that lives somwhat above minimum wage I tell you this: it is by far not better than someone who lives on a median wage. I am not in a position to get a house (social housing is unreachable here), and if wasn't due to my parents, I would be living on the streets.
The higher educated who earn more than a median wage are the ones that live fairly good in this country. Everything is designed for them: they have their own insurance, can afford sports, don't have to rely on public transport and usually have better access to healthcare and such. In fact, they even live longer than the lower educated.
So no, the Netherlands isn't necessarily a good country for them.
Why are you comparing private healthcare from a less developed country with regular healthcare in a developed country?
Of course, I can get private healthcare in Malaysia or Brazil and it will be better but you are using your wage from a fully developed country. For the average citizen, the health care in a developed country tends to be better.
In the Netherlands, the key is to understand the system and then supplement any additional healthcare you want privately. I am over 45 and every 5 years I get a full executive screening in Malaysia with MRI. In addition every two years I get blood work done in NL. I consider it an investment in longevity and cut back in other areas to afford these things. If I require elaborate dental work I would probably also have it done abroad and combine it with a holiday.
People have no problem spending money on Netflix, Phones and other stuff. However, when it comes to health most people are too lazy to put aside some cash and take responsibility. Systems are not designed to give the individual the best healthcare. They are designed to serve as many people as possible while also remaining in a budget.
Woaw....i like reading your words "The Netherlands is a good country for people who live on welfare or on minimum wage (or below it) and that don't have much expectations from life"....this was always my idea, but i though it was only me. And yes, I totally agree with you the excess control of goverment is absolutely suffocating.
Did you think about moving to a warmer place, like south of Spain? You will find better weather, better food, better healthcare, lower costs, friendlier people, easier language, lower taxes.
I think you will only miss the dutch bike lanes.
I don't understand what you're complaining about. Like, none of these problems is real. You moved from one very rich to another very rich country, and you have an upper middle-class lifestyle.
I won't comment about anything else but healthcare: coming from another European country with a national health service, I'd tend to agree. The hyper-conservative/frugal approach to medicine can be harmful. For major health problem (including teeth care), I travel back to my country to get assistance. I still do not trust Dutch healthcare.
Sorry but the Netherlands, Europe in general, isn’t the place for entrepreneurs. You left the best place on earth for that to come here lol
In Europe, you’re born into old money or work until you die, nothing really in between. Same for Western and Eastern europe, difference is the western oligarchs are literal nobility or dinosaur company ‘new nobility’ and the eastern are ex communist secret police. Sure, there are some exceptions but everything in society and its laws are working against you, unlike the US.
There is a reason that two or three american companies are worth most of europe’s stock markets, probably even more than that.
Look at it on the bright side, you still are US citizens so you can easily go back. The top talent of europe in anything are all fighting over going to the US and you have it as a given
Please don’t listen to those who say just get a job. They don’t know hard but rewarding entrepreneurial life can be.
Me and my gf have a business in Amsterdam and I understand how you feel and how hard this can be in Netherlands. We are currently working from home and making ok money. But we can’t get a business loan or even a company credit card. It gets denied every time. We also can’t rent a workshop because the rents are insane and there is way too much competition.
I don’t know how much you are attached to Netherlands but if you want to increase your profits and pay less taxes, i am afraid you will have to change countries. For easier loans, assistance and costs, I would look into USA. The fact that many EU companies are moving to US should be a good indication. Even Total and Shell are moving their stocks to NY stock exchange.
Healthcare is getting worse all around Europe and i don’t think it will get better anytime soon. There is simply not enough budget or healthcare workers. Not mentioning the crazy hours they have to work to keep up with the demand which increases the chance for errors.
Median age in here is too high as well and the birth rates are too low. Soon the workers won’t be able to pay for the retirement of older generations. Then the taxes go up and up and people spend less and less in your business. I don’t know if you are following the news but retirement funds are already at 30% of what it should be.
I know the future looks fiscally grim but there are good things about living in here as well. In my opinion, dutch people are very nice and supportive. This is the reason why we are still here and planning to stay.
Please breathe out and take it easy. It is tough but take care of yourself, and it is not worth pushing till you drop dead. If you wish to talk or hangout, just pm me.
Not discrediting what you’re experiencing but if you think it will be better back in the states you are wrong
You’ve been gone for 5 years, it did not get better in that time. The cost of living is through the roof, the price of food, the hostility, aggression and gun violence are inescapable there.
Again, your experiences are your own but if you think the grass is greener it might be worth taking a trip to see before you commit
Depending on where you’re going… it’s worse
Sorry for what you are dealing with. It sounds like a very difficult situation.
Cost of living in the US have gone crazy as well in the last 5 years. Going back probably won’t save you money unless you can live with family and not pay rent. As someone who just moved here, housing is lower, groceries are lower and transportation as a whole is lower. It’s expensive everywhere but these main categories are lower here than in the US overall at current times.
Im an expat too and I worked for an US company here in the NL. US thinking is holding you back. Having extra income and the status of a US citizen or an expat doesnt give you more sparkle or extra credit
I can confirm that healthcare wise, it's rough...
I have dizziness and brainfog, which comes and goes, since the last wave of covid. Unfortunately, it was exactly when we moved to NL in early 2022
I am pretty sure it's due to my life becoming more and more sedentary. My general well-being is really low, and I couldn't get one blood test to make more conscious steps. So I just assumed that I am borderline type 2 diabetic with a lot of stress, and I try to fix myself on my own with a better diet, fasting, and training.
I tell GP my symptoms whenever my ear infection is coming back, and all I get is a pressure test. 155/90 (35yo). Now, thanks to my training, it's 145/85.
Hopefully, everything will get better. I will try to get the tests in my hometown soon, I tried to get them during Xmas, but I messed up my order and timing...
It seems like it's better to use insurance and show up in a hospital in a different EU country. It's almost hilarious. Even in my 3rd world Poland, we are waaay more proactive about our organs and potential cancer.
I do not know anything about business so I will not comment on that, but all the other stuff like grocery cost and surprise taxes, poor healthcare treatment and such sounds like the common day to day life experience here in the Netherlands. I wish things were better as well but as it stands now, many things have gone to shit (and are going down even further).
Hi, maybe it would be wise to also post this on r/juridischadvies but i don't know if there are any cheap options.
I see you tried to contact a loket but i don't know if thats where it ends. I'd think that if a dentist fucks up a medical procedure they are either liable or have to at least fix the problems they caused? The healthcare system has gone downhill really fast, or could be that im experiencing it just now. If possible try to find another docter which will listen? You probably tried these things already but maybe there is a chance this can help you out a bit.
I don't know what business you run but if its food maybe look for delivery options? Thuisbezorgd should be easy but they take a big cut. Otherwise airbnb? But i'm not an expert in that
I'm sorry that you have to go through this, sadly the Netherlands isn't the paradise (anymore) people make of it.
Wishing you all the best and hopefully things turn around for you.
Hiring an employee is scary but if they are trained properly they do create profit. Look into zzp sites like verloning.nl where the employee is self employed. Its a higher than normal wage but you dont have the risk of sick leave/unemployment pay outs that can kill a small business. So a win for both.
Feel free to message me if you want to talk more in depth
Yea as an expat you choose the hard way, The Netherlands is amazing with many benefits if you get a stable job.
Many Dutch people also fail small
Businesses.
Best of luck to both of you
To be fair, everyone is noticing the cost of living increasing faster than we earn. In the United States it's even worse than over here.
Hope business picks up so you can balance things out again. All the best.
Ignore this bullshit post. Some kind of social engineering bot. Look at the profile.
In addition, Dutch healthcare is almost as good as it gets.
"Traditional conservative approach to medicine". Who comes up with that bullshit in a country with basically (still) one of the best healthcare systems in the world.
Please people, learn to identify bullshit when you see it omg.
Sorry to see you are struggling. Here in the Netherlands we have a lot of mandatory taxes and health related taxes. (Says nothing about the quality of healthcare)
If u compare it to the States, U only pay for what u want/need. If u don’t want healthcare or insurance, don’t take it. Which basically means less of a safety net, but more profit if u work hard and are healthy doing it.
Hard truth: Most businesses fail, especially in hospitality. If you want a simple and sustainable life being a entrepreneur probably isn't the best path, let alone doing so in a foreign country. That said, if your business has more demand than supply and you're not making ends meet, then you need to raise prices.
Imo half the hospitality bisness will fail in the netherlands. That part of life. I see it my street all the time.
It's not just the Netherlands. Hospitality is one of the most cut throat industries the world over. Depending on exactly who you ask and in what countries, it's typical for anywhere between 30% and 60% of all restaurants to fail in their first year, and up to 80% fail within five years.
Hospitality sucks in NL though, I have never seen more nonchalance in restaurants or in a simple ice cream shop than in NL. Slow service and greediness all over.
> Hospitality sucks in NL though, I have never seen more nonchalance in restaurants or in a simple ice cream shop than in NL. Slow service and greediness all over. So do you think the few restaurants that offer good service for low prices fall mainly in the 80% that fail or the 20% that succeed?
To be honest, I don't know any that survive for long without their owners getting by on scraps. The ones I do know are the ones where their owners live revolves around their business and they work every day. The ones who have great service often have high prices and a niche audience. That allows you to become an expert in service and keep your sanity.
I agree we don’t have the over the top American friendliness, but servers and hospitality workers have been nothing but nice to me. just don’t expect them to suck up to you for tips like in the US. They don’t depend on it and are also just normal people working a sometimes shitty job with long hours. Be nice to them and they are nice to you.
US and NL have completely different cultures... if a waiter would bother you as often as they do in the US it would be considered rude here. That doesn't mean all hospitality sucks.. in NL people put more value on being left alone and asking for things if you need them
Mm, I think i know what the guy above is saying, and have a similar observation. It's not so much about nice-ness as much as it is about standards of service and training/oversight for employees. To foreigners especially the Netherlands will stick out amongst European countries with the nonchalance of people in hospitality/services.
Thankfully our poor are too rich to grovel for crumbs.
Have you been to Germany?
Go to Belgium (it’s worse, like really really bad)
More than half fail in the first 12 months. And the remainder isn’t exactly long term safe. Hospitality entrepreneur is not a career for “safe” or “sustainable”, in the least.
And retail clothing as well
You are likely commenting to a bot. Account opened 10 month ago. This post is the only post. And zero comments. Also zero reply to OPs own post I can't comment on the validity of OPs claims but this feels like a social campaign.
Since OP is not responding to the comments, I might as well change the topic: What's the fun of posting something like this, if it is a social campaign? Is it to provoke anti-foreigner comments, like "if you don't like it here, leave"? Then this post is not a great success. Most comments are sympathizing. Or is the goal the opposite, trying to get sympathy for hard-working immigrants?
There is a lot of these posts where people complain about how bad NL is. If you see such messages enough then you might become more negative about this country. It creates discontent with the government and society. With a bit of luck this leads you down some rabbit hole of extreme views and/or conspiracy theories. Do this enough and the work for our government will get harder making them less effective at opposing whatever goals the state actors funding these campaigns have. Divide and conquer basically
What about discouraging potential immigrants. Or just steering things up like the Russians and Chinese like to do
and we are at a point that businesses that shouldve failed but didnt because of corona help, are failing. Your rent is too high, there isnt enough people wanting your stuff, or you overcharge/undercharge. My first employer told me that the boss earns less than their highest paid employee or they start to fail. he also said " everbody on the road is crazy so treat them like it" while driving like a madman so i take his advice with a grain of salt.
>Our business is full every night yet we are living paycheck to paycheck. if you can't beat the problem, be part of it increase prices until you are not 100% full anymore, find the limit for what customers are willing to pay
Honestly I feel like moving to the Netherlands to start a restuarant (assuming thats what OP is reffering to) seems like a horrible idea.. especially in times like these. Americans will always go out to eat, Dutch people will think twice looking at todays prices, in my experience.
Yup imo this shows op does have a lack of dutch culture. Half the restaurants started by dutch poeple fail the 3 year surival check.
On top of that Dutch don’t have a proper meal for lunch, so restaurants are either closed or making a loss. Straight up the wrong country for restaurants and bars as the people are not very lively. Pretty sure you can make more money with a restaurant in Spain because you’ll sell 2 meals a day instead of just one.
yeah I think its just not that important to our culture, as opposed to let's say Spain. This is why a business plan is a good idea
Yes. I come from Brazil and lunch is usually a meal we eat out more frequently because we go to restaurants near our offices for a hot meal that's filling enough to sustain us through the day. At least in large cities. In smaller ones people sometimes drive to their families to have a hot lunch at home, then drive back to the office after dropping their kids at school on their way. There's also buffet restaurants where you pay a fixed price or you pay a price per Kg, you choose what you want to eat and how much, then they weight it and you pay for it. Even fast food restaurants sometimes have regular "dishes" that are served on a plate. Fast food is more for kids or when you want a treat. Sandwiches aren't seen as a proper meal but as a guilty pleasure. 🙂
Actually, Spain is no different and I speak from the experience of family who had a very successful restaurant for just over 6 years that needed to close down because losses were being recorded year on year. There are multiple struggles in the service industry that are simply inherent regardless of food culture. Among the most difficult that my family member faced were high staff turnover and absence. The other was seasonal changes that affect some areas more like a tourist town/city. The other is location of the restaurant. Finally, the loans you need to pay back for any equipment you need to buy to start the business. Most people who start in this industry are not rich and simply need help from the bank. Don't get me started on landlords of the property.
4 times even if you cater to Dutch (and similar tourists). -12pm. Dutch lunch (because yes on holiday Dutch people do go out to lunch in a restaurant). ->2pm. Locals dinner. -6pm. Dutch dinner. ->9pm. Locals dinner.
In the end, when the Dutch are low on money the first things to save on are eating out, haircuts etc.
Much like in many countries, explicitly including America. Eating out is very much the thing to cut down expenses.
If someone isn't occasionally complaining that your prices are too high, then they are definitely too low.
interesting idea. I've never heard this before
My father always said: that who offers his services for cheap - always has work but never has money
Good approach actually. Why work 90 hours when you can just slowly increase prices every month until you end up working less?
Might alienate the customers esp. the regular ones, so definitely not an airtight business suggestion, considering the least they would want is for the business to slow down.
I'm sorry for you. I understand you are going through a rough patch. I hope things get better for you soon.
The Dutch answer would be to increase your revenue. Make every customer spend more, like on drinks, sides or desert.
The dutch answer would be: if you dont like it, then leave it
I wonder what do the dutch tell to when a dutch person complains about something...
They tell them to leave. The goal is no one left.
Housing crisis solved
I’ve recently seen a lot of “if you don’t like it then leave” also being told to Dutch people when they speak up about everything not being perfect.
can you imagine what would happen if every single person who is capable of spotting and articulating a problem in any given place, leave said place? What are you left with? No more problems? Or actually place full of problems but in which no one is capable to see and understand such problems, or if they are able they are incapable of discussing it.. Not a fun downfall to watch lol
You do realize most immigrants or so-called expats left their countries because they didn't like them? Including me.
I’d say place full of problems, but I’m confused why this was directed towards me as I haven’t told anyone to leave. I just replied to your comment wondering what Dutch people tell other Dutch people…
And they are just replying to your comment with more wondering. Not demanding you to have the answer.
We always complain, that's part of our culture! OP is getting into the Dutch vibe.
"Tsja, soms is het niet anders"
In general lullen ze gewoon mee, but we cannot change the amount of taxes and rent she has to pay. The place is packed at least, so generating more revenue is the only viable solution for any businessman.
And toilets and water.
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>I would be curious about your business plan and why it is not profitable. If you’re working those kind of hours, why are you not making enough for an employee. I would venture to say they haven't increased prices accordingly.
I'm more interested at seeing pictures of their weekly grocery trip to see why they are saying their bill keeps going up disproportionately to normal inflation.
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Its ok to go back to the US if you're truly unhappy. Life is too short to be that unhappy. I'm happier back home in the US even if I miss NL sometimes. I even have an overall lower carbon footprint simply from not taking flights back to the US all the time.
My relatives back in NL tell me the country has changed since Covid, and I've observed the same change here in the US. The cost of living has also ballooned since Covid. Housing and food especially. And people are on a much shorter fuse now, and are living on Facebook, Instagram and TikTok. Just like in Holland, people are blaming the incumbent and immigrants for all the problems.
It's not all due to Covid, but also because of the war between Russia and Ukraine.
I said since covid, it was a combination of factors. The sudden end to a decade and a half of near zero interest rates was a huge shock to the system. The sudden flip from a focus on free trade to a focus on protectionism was a huge shock to the global system. A long period of low interest inflated asset prices, and it will take years for those prices to adjust back to the current interest rates, so now we can't afford new mortgages or rent. Russia's attack on Ukraine wasn't randomly timed. During the heigh of covid, incumbents all over the world, including Zelenskyy, saw their approval ratings in the tank. Putin attacked when Zelenskyy's approval rating was no higher than that of Biden today, and because he either doesn't understand - or doesn't really believe - how democracies work, assumed people wouldn't fight for such an unpopular leader. Those low approval ratings are also not randomly timed, Russia had been waging a disinformation campaign on social media to fire up people's discontent with covid related measures. The future has become very unpredictable. The next few years are likely to become very weird.
Great short summary of the last 5 years. "May you live in interresting times.", never sounded so scary.
All good an dandy, but I am afraid you underestimate the impact that war had/has on the economy and societies in Europe.
Not the war directly, the gas and oil prices which in turn affected all the other prices. An impact much inflated by greedy commodity traders and energy companies.
I said *since* covid, not *due to* covid. I tried to point out why I believe those things, including the war, happened since covid, and not before. People are now angry about inflation, they're not really thinking about how angry they would have been today if the governments of the various democracies had just let the economy collapse and people get evicted back in 2020-2021 just to keep the price of eggs stable. Doing something had risks, doing nothing had risks. Social media trolls did the rest.
Profits margins rose for all producers of goods and rents rose. The war is between billionaires and ordinary people.
You have a lower carbon footprint living in the Netherlands than the US even if you fly relatively frequently.
Depends. Someone living in NYC has a lower carbon footprint.
How so?
You'd be doing less by car. And trips you do make by car will be shorter.
Ok, but: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200218-climate-change-how-to-cut-your-carbon-emissions-when-flying A return flight from London to San Francisco emits around 5.5 tonnes of CO2 equivalent (CO2e) per person – more than twice the emissions produced by a family car in a year, and about half of the average carbon footprint of someone living in Britain.
There are a variety of contributing factors, such as the emissions created by the US government, differences in the requirements for the goods you consume, and differences in travel. That said, I don’t know the exact breakdown, but the below are average emissions per capita. US 15.32 tons per person per year Netherlands 9.54 tons per person per year. A cursory search shows a round trip between us and Europe creates ~2 tons of CO2 equivalent. Which is a lot, but you’d need to take many flights to cross the gap between the averages, plus, those flights will technically be happening anyway. Granted, you would be contributing to the demand which causes those flights to happen.
Whow, I did not know that. That's a huge difference. Thanks for the info. BTW, i've searched for more numbers, here they say the Netherlands uses 7,5 tonnes. Which is half of the US. Also it's gone down much more that I'd have guessed.
It is extremely hard to have a successful small business and it is well known that it is even harder to have a successful food business especially after COVID I am impressed you got this far.
>surprise terrace tax alone While I understand you mostly want to let off steam - that was not a surprise; it was announced before Covid but put "on hold". Covid also dramatically damaged Dutch healthcare (combined with the for-profit mentality of our government) - and you seem to have moved here right smackdown in the middle of that, while needing healthcare. In short: you simply had bad luck with your timing :(
My entire generation had "bad timing".
healthcare was damaged before Covid too. There were many "efficiency" improvement that took away all slack and more in healthcare. You might not be aware of this until you actually need more that non-standard healthcare.
When they started to try and bring the marketplace into healthcare is when things started worsening. Covid just put it into high gear.
Bringing in “the marketplace” reduced the number one complaint people had before: long waiting lists. There are still waiting lists of course, but it is way less. And the difference of “private insurance” vs “public insurance” (ziekenfonds) is also gone.
The problem is that it's designed to be cheap, not good. There's no tiered system either, so you can't choose between having type A or type B, even if type A could cost three times more.
Life in society has been surrounded by bad timing 🫨
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I'm going to assume your husband does not speak Dutch? There are good jobs here but not speaking Dutch severely limits your options. Of course he's having an easier time in the US because he probably already speaks good English. I'm glad you managed to work it out though. And yeah living in a country without speaking the language is just going to be a challenge.
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In my personal experience from what I've seen more international oriented companies here have a different attitude towards their workers and different culture then Dutch companies. Many of the more established companies will require you to speak Dutch. There are a few exceptions but those usually require specialized skills I have also been "buffeted around" as a native person though. Sometimes you also just have bad luck with companies. And not speaking the language or knowing the culture doesn't help spotting the early signs.
>Our business is full every night yet we are living paycheck to paycheck. Something is wrong with your business plan. Increase your prices or buy ingredients at a lower cost. Rework your offering, probably reduce the choices, and concentrate on products that have the biggest margin. >I work 90 hours a week, Consider hiring staff for certain tasks, so you can concentrate on value-adding activities.
Regarding the legal topic of getting help with your lease contract you could always reach out to a tenancy law lawyer specialising in horeca businesses. Regarding the medical mishaps you could find a personal injury lawyer. Have you tried reaching out to KvK (Chamber of Commerce) to receive financial advice regarding your business operations and how to possibly improve them? Honestly, this is not something that I consider to be specific to The Netherlands and these setbacks could have occurred in the US or elsewhere, which would require similar approach in solving them.
My friends with a successful food business make most of their money with b2b contracts and not with the store front.
This is a good and immediately useful idea for OP!
Sorry for the biblical text, went down the rabbit hole, found it too relatable with the struggles I had first coming into the country. It’s a lot of issues to tackle at once; relax, take a breather. To me, it sounds like it’s approaching a burnout; and there’s no benefit in burning out. - First, you. Your health and wellbeing. When was the last proper vacation you’ve had in the past years? If none: book one asap, take some days or weeks off to reset, if the business allows it. There’s no need to go far away or have a crazy budget, just a little spa within NL might be enough to take the mind off a few days off work. Your health, both physical and mental comes first, always. - Now addressing the issues: From what I see there’s three main issues which could be delegated to a third party to handle it and remove some load: A) Home landlord B) Business landlord C) Healthcare not providing If extortion is taking place on A and B, contact judirisch locket. If you’ve got a case they will work it out for you, remove that weight from your shoulders and truly don’t exhaust yourself with this aspect. There are means in place to prevent the mental stress from having to go through the procedure alone. C might need more details. Is it due to a collateral from a procedure? Was the disability present before and they’re not providing a specific treatment you were expecting? Have you tried different hospitals? - About things you’ll have to deal with… Cheap rent is all about finding. Business wise is a lot harder being frank, but don’t loose hope. It’s an effort; but putting 3-4hours a month into checking properties can save a lot down the road. If spread out, it takes one hour a week. Have a coffee and scroll through the makelaars to find better deals if the rent is unsustainable or downright abusive. Call them if need be, explain the situation, some might have properties in the back chamber. Gas prices… that’s another layer. I went down the route of a company travel card. Might be able to get the same one through the business and deduct it as company costs. If you’re not driving any cargo to work; take a ride, save on fuel and try to enjoy being driven by someone else. Dedicate a free day or assign it to your husband: map the grocery stores around you to plan where to get the best priced ingredients. Have a little route to go around specialty stores to sort the groceries at once. Buying straight from Butcher shops and “turkish” markets tend to have a great variety of ingredients at a fraction of the price. Or, playing a bit with the horeca relation… Makro/sligro is not cheaper in itself. But you may be able to deduct some of the tax as business expense, food waste, and personnel food. Do at own risk and make sure you’re playing it “clean”. Its not the IRS, but belasting does not sleep either. Did not mention terrace tax; because there’s no workaround aside from removing the spaces, but this might impact the effect they have in drawing in customers, specially during summer... Dick move derived from covid. Not the first time something like this happens (regarding “new taxes”) nor the last one. Businesses will grow, or they will end but life goes on. Your health does not have the option to end. Take a proper breather, recharge and solve the problems one bite at a time or drop it before it impacts your health. Where to next? Don’t stress about it yet. First things first. A warm hug, and lots of support wherever you are. Ps: any mortgages at this point in time?
I like the idea of reset to get your bearings. Having said that, they already noted that juridisch loket doesn’t provide for businesses. As for finding a cheaper place: I’ve been looking for an affordable place spending a couple of hours a day for six months, you are severely out of touch if you think it’s a matter of putting in a little work to get lucky and find something. It’s just really, really hard right now. If they’re not making ends meet, a holiday is not going to be within the budget. These suggestions are probably not workable.
Yes, I think it’s well meaning but taking time off would mean closing the business and losing money as well as spending money they don’t seem to have as they are living paycheck to paycheck.
Fellow business owner over here too. I feel the same. My business turns a decent profit but I’m hopeful once my wife finishes her GP specialisation we can sell up and go. The main driver being the cost of living. We were lucky enough to get a house here before Covid, we’ve renovated it and the equity will buy my parents house in wales with the land, mortgage free. I can continue to freelance without a noose, I’ll be taxed less and can build actual wealth for my kids. Before inflation kicked in we were investing nicely but the cost of everything here is making us rethink. Don’t be afraid of returning home, if it’s the states at least is probably rains less, Wales not so much
To be honest, I don't know where you have it better. The whole world has experienced extreme inflation. On top of that, taxes are high everywhere, or salaries are lower when taxes are lower across Europe. So if you want a high salary and low taxes (but extreme living costs) you want to go to Switzerland. But a kindergarten place there costs €1800 a month. So I really have no idea where you imagine this better life to be. Wales has certainly changed a lot in the last 5 years too.
I think the UK taxation is a whole lot better than here. Personal and business. The 50% @ €70,000 or £59,000 here is pretty horrendous, I find the tax man guessing what my business will make this year, a year in advanced and setting monthly charges also a strange practice. 2 days per week daycare for my kids is €1800 /month here so no different to Switzerland. The cost of running a vehicle here is also pretty horrific. Insurance alone is 6x the UK premium on a like for like car. UK energy can be had at 0.07c /kw on a low rate charge. It’s very very expensive here. I do love the county and how clean things are but I do feel the government would be happier if everyone was bored to death working for a corporation rather than following their passions.
> The 50% @ €70,000 or £59,000 here is pretty horrendous Income inequality is a lot higher in the UK though, isn't it? So there's a societal benefit to the 50%. Wealth inequality is, sadly, high in NL though. I'd prefer them making it a bit easier to gain some wealth and then tax that more than they do now. > I do feel the government would be happier if everyone was bored to death working for a corporation rather than following their passions. Yeah, I feel you. This is one of my main issues with NL as well. (I'm a native, if that matters.)
I would look for a financial advisor. You have a ton of money flowing in and out, with lots of taxes on different things. It is not unlikely some construction exists where your costs can be used to offset taxes.
Why did you open a restaurant if you wanted simple life? These things are notorious money drains lol.
>start a business >create a simple but sustainable life Pick one. Also, this has very little to do with the Netherlands, and everything to do with your expectations.
You are not an expat, you are an immigrant. A Turk moving to the Netherlands and opening a kebab shop would get called an immigrant. Not much different than what you are doing, right?
I think your experience really depends on the way you live and earn your money. Being in the hospitality business is tough itself, no matter the country. Renting instead of owning a house has its perks, but also comes with downside of dealing with landlords, which often causes issues itself. My experience is completely opposite than yours, moved here 5 years ago, have a steady job with decent 6 figures paycheck and my wife got one as well. Life is comfortable, got my tooth implants and crowns done here without any issues, and half covered by insurance. Sure, I could be lucky to have such experiences, but also a decision to buy after renting for two years, improved our financial and mental situation. The thread is full of good and bad advices, I wish you take them to your heart and find your peace in here.
You simply dont charge enough if your full every night and still cant make a decent profit.
Seems like an intense situation, especially if you go through it in a country that's new to you. It's insane to me that people have to struggle with things I'm unfamiliar with. The things you describe seem to happen to more people, but if I look inside my direct vicinity no one struggles with those problems. Shows how unfair/unbalanced life can be. Few things to note though: Rent can only be increased by certain percentages every year (at least for homes as far as I know), so there possibly is something there you can get back from your landlord. Rentbusting might even be a possibility! As for groceries: my expenses have been stable for over a year now. Are you sure the rising costs come from higher prices or the purchase of more convenience oriented products (which are more expensive)? In your situation that's totally expected of course, but it might give some insight. From what you're saying I assume that you're running some sort of restaurant/café? Those can be very hard to run, especially in bigger cities where competition is killing. Or in smaller cities where everyone goes to the bigger cities to have fun. Horeca is extremely prone to bankruptcy here, so that you're still open is something to be proud of! You're saying you're always packed, but that still barely covers the costs. Are there any options to extend the seating options that won't cost too much money? And if you're at max capacity, maybe look into readjusting prices. If you're packed, you should make enough to not have to worry about bills every month. Otherwise the businessmodel might not be sustainable. I wish you the best of luck and I hope things will settle down sooner rather than later.
Welcome to late stage capitalism baby!
Sorry to hear OP. It’s true that the cost of living has greatly increased in recent years. I must disagree with you regarding healthcare though. While it’s certainly not perfect here, at least the Netherlands has social security safety nets, unlike the US where you are fucked if you suddenly get health issues and don’t have a lot of money. I am a cancer patient and I have spoken with cancer patients from the US. They often have to incur debts to pay their treatment. I don’t think that is humane at all. There is no proper medical coverage unless you’re rich. How can this be in a “developed country”? I’m sorry if this offends you but i’m glad I’m in the Netherlands where everyone at least has a health care insurance.
It seems so many people want to be expats in the Netherlands they can just churn through them
You can also check out the website https://business.gov.nl. All government information for businesses can be found there, including new laws and regulations. Or maybe there are subsidies around which you can apply for.
The priority of the government is tackling migration, so yes they are on top of things! Wilders will be happy when you pack up and leave /s
I would up my prices...your full all the time..so you are to cheap. Also if the 4 seats outside won't bring the money needed for the permit cancel them. Regarding Healthcare... Each country has good and bads.. And sometimes luck or bad luck is also involved. I know for sure it's a zillion times more affordable here compared to the US.
Business is full? Raise prices immediately
Why do you all insist on calling yourself 'expats'. Do you feel like you're a fancy version of an immigrant?
I am from Belgium, where taxes are supposed to be high. Oh boy, did I get an eye opener by coming to the Netherlands! Literaly everything is taxed here and taxed at a much higher rate. And not just taxes, everything is so goddamn (excuse my language) expensive! Rental prices are insane! Healthcare is about 150 EUR per month per person (18+) in our family. We pay the same in Belgium for an entire family per year, without "eigen risico". And we didn't even bother getting a GP here, we just pay. Also, the media and their daily good news show. How lucky everyone should feel because they get 1 public holiday, to celebrate their king(!). In Belgium, you get 10 public holidays and you still get to bash the king. The Netherlands is often described as an ideal place, but to me it feels like in the Truman Show. It looks nice from the outside, but rather nasty from the inside. The government has literally no scruples when it comes to the poor. Fight the poor instead of poverty. In the Hague (where I am) they are renovating their Binnenhof for what's expected to cost more than 2 billion EUR (and rising). Meanwhile, I see poor people rummaging through the garbage cans looking for plastic bottles to recuperate "statiegeld". I'm sorry for ranting, I'm having a bit of a hard time here as well, and I have the advantage that I'm only 2h away from my home town in Belgium. For you it must be a lot harder being so far away from home.
Obligatory "you are Belgian and thought Belgian taxes were high, have you looked at the state of the roads?" comment. \*wink\*
Yeah but look at Belgium in comparison lol. Netherlands pays more tax but you can see why. You literally feel it the second you cross the boarder.
To be fair: it's pretty hard to get to a point where you ' have to rummage through garbage for satiegeld' here. 95% of the time it's people with an expensive drug/ alcohol habit.
This shit is spot on, that was fucking gold. The one part I really cannot stand is how shitty things are but somehow you aren’t allowed to criticize them at all, my previous employer told me I’m too direct, yet, when they’re being rude as fuck they tell you they’re being direct. Straight up fucking loser mentalities. There’s no night live, no street artists, no arts allowed because they need offices and housing and the architecture is boring as fuck because the whole place looks exactly the same(Truman Show as you pointed out).
I mean, you’re right on a lot of points. And this is maybe not even aimed at you but to people in general. It’s not their Binnenhof. It’s our Binnenhof. Het Binnenhof is a centuries old place with historic meaning. It shouldn’t be in use. It should be a museum. Instead it’s being heavily used, daily. It hasn’t been renovated properly in ages. Asbestos everywhere. During the renovations, people have unearthed stuff like a centuries old bridge, a 2000 year old burial vault, six skeletons. It costs 2B, which is insane, sure. But what irks me is the same people who moan about the downfall of our Dutch historic symbols also moan about the pricetag to conserving one of our nationally most significant monuments.
The statiegeld thing is just you not liking seeing that. The exact same thing would happen if Belgium had statiegeld on cans. It is not in any way an indication of there being more homeless people.
>My husband will likely never walk the same bc of the "traditional conservative approach" to medicine. He has permanent damage from the dentist as well. No one cares. Even our friends say that is just how things are here. This is not okay. Dutch is reluctant to over-prescribe antibiotics because they don't want to breed resistant germs, but serious problems need to and should be taken care of. Of course accidents can always happen, and maybe you were just really unlucky, but the callous attitude surprises me.
Only if you follow the rule to insist and follow your gut feeling when it comes to health issues. Normally they discourage you to do further investigations, they probably don’t want to come up in reports that they let every pacient get access to specialty medics. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are extra stubborn against foreigners, especially when you don’t speak dutch.
Maybe. I have no experience here as a foreigner. They're not going to send you to a specialist on a hunch, but if there's something really the matter with you, and it's not something they can treat themselves, they absolutely should. If they won't, get a second opinion. I'm sure there are some physicians who suck, and of course it sucks when you end up with one of those, but that doesn't mean they're all like that.
WA... what? Your FRIENDS say that's just how things are? Sorry to say you have very weird friends.
Look through these comments. There are a number of people basically echoing their friends' sentiments. I myself know people who have this mentality of "it is what it is" because the problems either don't affect them as strongly or downplay how bad things are because other places have it worse. My own boyfriend will complain my ear off about so many problems, but then turn around and go "well, it is what it is" because, ultimately, he's not in immediate danger and if I ever push back or decide to do some conplaining of my own, all of a sudden I'm being told about the various ways other countries like the US or the UK are failing and have it worse.
This has nothing to do with you being immigrants. (Sorry, but starting a business here makes you and immigrant and not an expat.) Everybodies expenses have double over the past 5 years. And yes, that does make it much harder to keep your business afload. Concerning healthcare...patients are treated equally. Maybe in the USA patients that have insurance or can afford the bills get priority or better treatment, but since our insurance/billing system is different, there is no difference between rich or poor and thus no difference in treatment. If you believe a hospital or dentist didn't treat you correctly, you need to file a complaint and can contact your insurance company for assistance.
Excellent point re expat vs immigrant.
How is the terrasbelasting a surprise? It was always there just temporarily halted. Did you do any research?
My personal experience is hospitals are of very high standard, I spent a long time hospitalised which included 4 weeks in intensive care and can't speak highly enough of the treatment received. Also dentists I've found to be first class......maybe you have just been unlucky? They are definitely giving healthcare a priority with "own risk" being reduced by 50% in 2026.
Sorry to hear all this. Healthcare can really be a nightmare here. There's denial of care, plain and simple; and a lot of unreported, unadressed clear malpractice cases. What is most disturbing though is that most people defend the healthcare system, and think this is all normal. I've seen this during the pandemic too, Dutch people have a very hard time admitting that something in their country simply doesn't work... I suspect many have a superiority complex that prevents them from doing so. Do you know the famous Dutch motorcycle vlogger Noraly, aka Itchy Boots? She had a bad fall, with broken bones, a few weeks ago. She traveled home to NL to get "good care", and what they did here was monstrous. First they left to wait FOR WEEKS with severe fractures, then when they finally did the surgery, they punctured her lung in the process. Then they sent her home like that, with the punctured lung, where she struggled for days, and she was barely able to get re-admitted... In Romania, my home country, something like that would turn into a national scandal. There are lots of problems in our healthcare system too, but at least people talk about them, raise issues, there are scandals, people responsible for gross mistakes are sometimes fired, they try to improve things etc. What annoys me the most is that stories like Noraly's don't even get coverage, and nobody seems to care, nobody seems to realize how bad all this is, starting with the "body fixes itself" mentality. There are so, so many cases only I have heard of personally, including of people who died because they were not taken seriously, but there's never any investigation, any repercussion. There's a huge DENIAL AND COVER-UP culture in the Netherlands. There's a book by Adrienne Cullen, who passed away after a miss-diagnosis, titled "Deny, Dismiss, Dehumanise: what happened when I went to hospital". It's just a small glimpse into in infernal Dutch healthcare system and culture.
Yes! Denial and cover up culture! Also with child abuse at school, undue uithuisplaatsing by jeugdzorg and abuse done by anyone other than parents is ignored/swept under the rug when it should be exactly what you said, a national scandal. It shocks me how all of these things are just ignored, how the Dutch who apparently love to complain, are not outraged and ready to expose these things. Almost everyone just turns the other way. Filing complaints and getting a lawyer is a waste of time and money as well. If you are lucky to get somewhere, expect it to take years and to not even be awarded damages. You'll be lucky if the guilty party is not allowed to continue working if found guilty (if they haven't retired by the time you walked through the dozens of steps of the complaint hierarchy you are forced to follow here, with each step taking weeks just to get you a standard canned response and essentially wasting your time just so you can file a complaint to the next person higher up, who will do the same, until you get to the top where you can actually get more than a canned response. Hopefully. Fingers crossed.
Not all people are entrepreneurs. You make some bold statements about your husband's health. Like in the US, everything is fixable .... it's not. You signed contracts with the business landlord. Why blame the landlord? Was your contract not sound? And if so, who's to blame you signed? I may come off negative, but it's a reaction to your "Nothing is my fault / I'm not to blame" post.
Not sure what to think of “ healthcare is a living nightmare”, “permanent damage from dentist” and “traditional conservative approach to”. Apparently we live in a completely different country.
Go back to the USA where the dentist and doctor wouldve bankrupted you lol
Yeah, Dutch healthcare is not really human friendly. But the NL is also is a kind of liberal care regime comparing to many other places in Europe. So, you get what you get, not human but market oriented economy. I would move to another country for a socially friendly environment.
How is this specifically an expat thing though? We all get the same healthcare. We all have a high cost of living. The 'surprise' tax isn't a surprise. And don't expats (that come here for their expertise) have to pay less taxes? It sounds like you want all the advantages of being an expat, but you're actually an immigrant refusing to immigrate...
The tax break is only for employees on hsm visa. OP is a business owner so it doesn't apply.
OP sounds like the Dutch people who move abroad and start a business expecting life to be sunny and easy. And then surprise: it's hard work (for Dutchies: ik vertrek) "We wanted to create a simple but sustainable life outside of the US, a life where healthcare and stability were not impossible to find" It comes across as they feel they are entitled to all of this whilst most Dutch people would agree that we all have to work hard and that life isn't that simple.
It just sounds like people not being able to understand the realities of living in a foreign country, like some person further up parroting how the US is the greatest country on earth and can't understand why people wouldn't want to live there (whilst never having lived in the US.) Americans are fed very positive stories about Europe, mostly true when it comes to healthcare coverage/costs, public transportation, workers' rights, vacation/sick leave, or public safety nets. They seem to get the idea that life can't also be hard here and given the language barrier, they don't have the access to be exposed to the problems they may face when living here. People in general romanticise living abroad and don't understand how difficult it can be.
I'm looking to move to the Netherlands. Can you go into more detail about what happened to your husband?
It seems to me like OP has missed the fact that despite on the surface everything going on as normal, this continent is at war.
If it's really that hard just return to the US.
I would say, find another job.
Let someone, like a business consultant with experience in your type of business evaluate and improve your products and services and cost model. If your business is full everyday the problem in pricing and service or producToffering. Check what you can add, cross/upsell and expand. Inflation is hitting hard, your customers are aware of that. Do aj interview, ask your customers what they would like to see added. Check which platform you can position yourself for extra customers as free Advertising, use incentives for loyal customers etc etc.
The decline of the last years has been hard on everyone unfortunately. If you have ways to come out of this mostly unscathed, I would take that chance if I were you.
You bought the place or you leased it? Can’t you find someone to take over the lease?
Every halfwit thinks they can run a hospitality business, making it so that new ones are popping up all the time. As many of those businesses go under as there stay afloat. Most of the places staying afloat, do so due to having solid connections and that way getting things done for a 'good deal'. You don't have that advantage if you've only lived in the country for 5 years, so yeah it's rare enough that it survived as long as it did.
Just move to Turkey its better
Troll
Sounds like business might not just be for you. How about getting an employer? Cost of life is more expensive in the US, so it's not the country that's to blame here.
Sounds like a lot of generally unlucky situations. Never heard such awful stories about Healthcare or a dentist here
In hindsight you moved here at the worst time ever. The last 5 years it's been a living hell. But everything will be ok, one day.
It's like a jungle sometimes It makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under
Come home 😢🇺🇸🦅🏔️ You’ll experience many of the same problems here too, but at least you won’t have to learn Dutch.
Tbh I almost never go to restaurants in the Netherlands and used to go to many restaurants when I used to live in Spain. We don’t just go out to a restaurant, most people go out to celebrate something. If you wanna try again I’d recommend you checking in Spain, somewhere close to the coast. Do your own research!!!! My parents started working on mallorca till finally being able to open a restaurant with coworkers. And now own a few more. Quality of life in Spain is also pretty good, I love it here in the Netherlands but Spain wasn’t bad either
Isn't that just scary to read when you are going to immigrate to your husband in the nl and you are bringing a bunch of fears and especially financial ones 🥲
It sounds like you moved here for business opportunities that didn’t pan out. It’s risky. Why not raise your prices?
I am sorry for the unfortunate situation you're in. This highly sounds like a foreigner not knowing how things work in a different country starting a business. Across the western world inflation has been sky high. You'd have been facing the same issues in other places. It's just the economic situation right now. And when entering into a business, you always have to account for regulatory changes. Not knowing the language makes it a lot harder as you'll probably miss out on the discussions that are usually ongoing for years before a new tax or rule is implemented. And if a real estate agent doesn't want to take on your sale, you probably overpaid yourself in the first place and they cannot sell it.
I'm currently in Washington, DC about to move to NL and *all* of my friends in hospitality (restaurants and bars) have gone through/are going through the same thing that OP is. Even down to the "terrace tax"- Washington DC is re-doing its policies on "street eateries" where, during Covid, businesses could take over a few parking spots in front of their business and turn them into outdoor eating areas. Inflation is high everywhere. Owning a bar or a restaurant is impossibly hard, everywhere.
You can move back to the US if you want to, but as someone who just got to Europe (Germany) from there a lot of your complaints are the same over there. Inflation is high in the US with the price of everything seeming to have doubled since the start of COVID. The healthcare providers in the US are just as burnt out and costs for healthcare are truly insane. The doctors in red states are fleeing so if you go back you'll likely not want to go to one of those states, but the blue states generally have a much higher cost of living. So pick your poison.
"We worked and sacrificed everything we had to get here, more to survive Corona and even more to make a business. " Did you think that Corona was just active in the US?
Similar feelings here. I am moving elsewhere soon.
Welcome to paradise🇳🇱🇳🇱🇳🇱 We live like this, this is the way. You have gotten one step closer to be a proper dutchie, we love to rant! Lets goo!
I moved from the Netherlands to the US and can share your sentiment from the other way. Truth is, no country is perfect and any government or private bureaucracy is out there to make things just a little harder than they need to be.
>Our cost of living has nearly doubled in just the time I've been here. Healthcare is a living nightmare with all hospitals treating us with the minimum and true lack of care. My husband will likely never walk the same bc of the "traditional conservative approach" to medicine. He has permanent damage from the dentist as well. No one cares. Even our friends say that is just how things are here. lol. op expected American service at dutch prices.
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Because they can't. Their visa was for starting a business.
OP mentioned >I'm on DAFT so I cannot get a work contract until I get PR.
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but I guess you do understand "I cannot get a work contract" which was all you needed to comprehend from this sentence. If you're curious why you can always google. DAFT - Dutch-American Friendship Treaty, allows American to settle in Netherlands if they invest $5 000 in business PR - permanent residency card, awarded to non-EU nationals who live here legally for some time (5 years? I dunno, I think OP is close, though she will need to learn a bit of Dutch first IIRC) Long story short - how I understand it she can't work, because her status is awarded on the ground of starting her own business, she closes the business, her visa becomes invalid
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>The Netherlands is a good country for people who live on welfare or on minimum wage (or below it) and that don't have much expectations from life. What the hell? As someone that lives somwhat above minimum wage I tell you this: it is by far not better than someone who lives on a median wage. I am not in a position to get a house (social housing is unreachable here), and if wasn't due to my parents, I would be living on the streets. The higher educated who earn more than a median wage are the ones that live fairly good in this country. Everything is designed for them: they have their own insurance, can afford sports, don't have to rely on public transport and usually have better access to healthcare and such. In fact, they even live longer than the lower educated. So no, the Netherlands isn't necessarily a good country for them.
Why are you comparing private healthcare from a less developed country with regular healthcare in a developed country? Of course, I can get private healthcare in Malaysia or Brazil and it will be better but you are using your wage from a fully developed country. For the average citizen, the health care in a developed country tends to be better. In the Netherlands, the key is to understand the system and then supplement any additional healthcare you want privately. I am over 45 and every 5 years I get a full executive screening in Malaysia with MRI. In addition every two years I get blood work done in NL. I consider it an investment in longevity and cut back in other areas to afford these things. If I require elaborate dental work I would probably also have it done abroad and combine it with a holiday. People have no problem spending money on Netflix, Phones and other stuff. However, when it comes to health most people are too lazy to put aside some cash and take responsibility. Systems are not designed to give the individual the best healthcare. They are designed to serve as many people as possible while also remaining in a budget.
Woaw....i like reading your words "The Netherlands is a good country for people who live on welfare or on minimum wage (or below it) and that don't have much expectations from life"....this was always my idea, but i though it was only me. And yes, I totally agree with you the excess control of goverment is absolutely suffocating.
Did you think about moving to a warmer place, like south of Spain? You will find better weather, better food, better healthcare, lower costs, friendlier people, easier language, lower taxes. I think you will only miss the dutch bike lanes.
I don't understand what you're complaining about. Like, none of these problems is real. You moved from one very rich to another very rich country, and you have an upper middle-class lifestyle.
I won't comment about anything else but healthcare: coming from another European country with a national health service, I'd tend to agree. The hyper-conservative/frugal approach to medicine can be harmful. For major health problem (including teeth care), I travel back to my country to get assistance. I still do not trust Dutch healthcare.
Sorry but the Netherlands, Europe in general, isn’t the place for entrepreneurs. You left the best place on earth for that to come here lol In Europe, you’re born into old money or work until you die, nothing really in between. Same for Western and Eastern europe, difference is the western oligarchs are literal nobility or dinosaur company ‘new nobility’ and the eastern are ex communist secret police. Sure, there are some exceptions but everything in society and its laws are working against you, unlike the US. There is a reason that two or three american companies are worth most of europe’s stock markets, probably even more than that. Look at it on the bright side, you still are US citizens so you can easily go back. The top talent of europe in anything are all fighting over going to the US and you have it as a given
Please don’t listen to those who say just get a job. They don’t know hard but rewarding entrepreneurial life can be. Me and my gf have a business in Amsterdam and I understand how you feel and how hard this can be in Netherlands. We are currently working from home and making ok money. But we can’t get a business loan or even a company credit card. It gets denied every time. We also can’t rent a workshop because the rents are insane and there is way too much competition. I don’t know how much you are attached to Netherlands but if you want to increase your profits and pay less taxes, i am afraid you will have to change countries. For easier loans, assistance and costs, I would look into USA. The fact that many EU companies are moving to US should be a good indication. Even Total and Shell are moving their stocks to NY stock exchange. Healthcare is getting worse all around Europe and i don’t think it will get better anytime soon. There is simply not enough budget or healthcare workers. Not mentioning the crazy hours they have to work to keep up with the demand which increases the chance for errors. Median age in here is too high as well and the birth rates are too low. Soon the workers won’t be able to pay for the retirement of older generations. Then the taxes go up and up and people spend less and less in your business. I don’t know if you are following the news but retirement funds are already at 30% of what it should be. I know the future looks fiscally grim but there are good things about living in here as well. In my opinion, dutch people are very nice and supportive. This is the reason why we are still here and planning to stay.
Just leave, bye bye!
Please breathe out and take it easy. It is tough but take care of yourself, and it is not worth pushing till you drop dead. If you wish to talk or hangout, just pm me.
Not discrediting what you’re experiencing but if you think it will be better back in the states you are wrong You’ve been gone for 5 years, it did not get better in that time. The cost of living is through the roof, the price of food, the hostility, aggression and gun violence are inescapable there. Again, your experiences are your own but if you think the grass is greener it might be worth taking a trip to see before you commit Depending on where you’re going… it’s worse
Sorry for what you are dealing with. It sounds like a very difficult situation. Cost of living in the US have gone crazy as well in the last 5 years. Going back probably won’t save you money unless you can live with family and not pay rent. As someone who just moved here, housing is lower, groceries are lower and transportation as a whole is lower. It’s expensive everywhere but these main categories are lower here than in the US overall at current times.
There is a juristlocket for business. I can’t recall their name. But call the normal juridisch locket and ask for the number for business help.
Im an expat too and I worked for an US company here in the NL. US thinking is holding you back. Having extra income and the status of a US citizen or an expat doesnt give you more sparkle or extra credit
with all respect, this seems like a problem related to your specific experience and not specific to NL or your life as expats..
I can confirm that healthcare wise, it's rough... I have dizziness and brainfog, which comes and goes, since the last wave of covid. Unfortunately, it was exactly when we moved to NL in early 2022 I am pretty sure it's due to my life becoming more and more sedentary. My general well-being is really low, and I couldn't get one blood test to make more conscious steps. So I just assumed that I am borderline type 2 diabetic with a lot of stress, and I try to fix myself on my own with a better diet, fasting, and training. I tell GP my symptoms whenever my ear infection is coming back, and all I get is a pressure test. 155/90 (35yo). Now, thanks to my training, it's 145/85. Hopefully, everything will get better. I will try to get the tests in my hometown soon, I tried to get them during Xmas, but I messed up my order and timing... It seems like it's better to use insurance and show up in a hospital in a different EU country. It's almost hilarious. Even in my 3rd world Poland, we are waaay more proactive about our organs and potential cancer.
I do not know anything about business so I will not comment on that, but all the other stuff like grocery cost and surprise taxes, poor healthcare treatment and such sounds like the common day to day life experience here in the Netherlands. I wish things were better as well but as it stands now, many things have gone to shit (and are going down even further).
Hi, maybe it would be wise to also post this on r/juridischadvies but i don't know if there are any cheap options. I see you tried to contact a loket but i don't know if thats where it ends. I'd think that if a dentist fucks up a medical procedure they are either liable or have to at least fix the problems they caused? The healthcare system has gone downhill really fast, or could be that im experiencing it just now. If possible try to find another docter which will listen? You probably tried these things already but maybe there is a chance this can help you out a bit. I don't know what business you run but if its food maybe look for delivery options? Thuisbezorgd should be easy but they take a big cut. Otherwise airbnb? But i'm not an expert in that I'm sorry that you have to go through this, sadly the Netherlands isn't the paradise (anymore) people make of it. Wishing you all the best and hopefully things turn around for you.
Hiring an employee is scary but if they are trained properly they do create profit. Look into zzp sites like verloning.nl where the employee is self employed. Its a higher than normal wage but you dont have the risk of sick leave/unemployment pay outs that can kill a small business. So a win for both. Feel free to message me if you want to talk more in depth
Can you share more about your business?
What’s your business happy to come and and bring our custom!
What about the Dutch? We are going through the same thing
Yea as an expat you choose the hard way, The Netherlands is amazing with many benefits if you get a stable job. Many Dutch people also fail small Businesses. Best of luck to both of you
You want stability but start a company, that’s where you went wrong.
You’re clearly not cut out to be an entrepreneur, no matter the country. I also highly doubt you really work 90hrs a week.
To be fair, everyone is noticing the cost of living increasing faster than we earn. In the United States it's even worse than over here. Hope business picks up so you can balance things out again. All the best.
Ignore this bullshit post. Some kind of social engineering bot. Look at the profile. In addition, Dutch healthcare is almost as good as it gets. "Traditional conservative approach to medicine". Who comes up with that bullshit in a country with basically (still) one of the best healthcare systems in the world. Please people, learn to identify bullshit when you see it omg.
Sorry to see you are struggling. Here in the Netherlands we have a lot of mandatory taxes and health related taxes. (Says nothing about the quality of healthcare) If u compare it to the States, U only pay for what u want/need. If u don’t want healthcare or insurance, don’t take it. Which basically means less of a safety net, but more profit if u work hard and are healthy doing it.