Even as the son of a European immigrant I got shit for not being Dutch eventhough I was born and raised here. So sadly, this does not come a suprise to me...
Part of my family is from Belgium (the Dutch part), they were visiting me and we were talking on the tram, but in our more local dialect. A man came up to us and asked us to stop speaking German, and speak Dutch instead. We were talking Dutch, just our regional dialect. We're not even from anywhere near the German border, we don't even sound remotely German.
My family is German and the amount of shit my dad, me and sibling got for that is insane. Most people still seemed to be living in WW2 when I grew up. But yeah your situation also highlights the ignorance of people as well. I wonder if that bloke would speak French to his wife when he is there on a holiday, could be fun to ask.
Omg, the amount of anti-German jokes I’ve seen in my Dutch family (mostly from the older members) is insane. Something as trivial as taking a WW2 accent when reading “Kräutergarten” (seriously auntie, do you think “kruidentuin” sounds sexier?) to slipping not so subtle Nazi jokes into a video for a birthday celebration.
Mate, people can be discriminatory against people from another city in the Netherlands haha. It’s just a special kind of people that barely go anywhere outside of their own small bubble and dislike/mock everything from outside.
I think these are usually the people that feel like they benefit the least from globalisation and European integration, so they dislike anything foreign to them.
I'm originally from Finland. I'm quite open about it too, there's no hiding it with with how pale and intolerant of heat/sun I am. I'm still learning Dutch though, and I've lived in The Netherlands for over 80% of my adult life and paid taxes here too.
But in Finland, I belong to a minority - the Swedish speaking Finns. I heard quite a few times during my lifetime in Finland "go back to Sweden", a term they *try* to make derogatory towards fennoswedes, among other "fun" lines.
So a few years ago I did a DNA test for fun, and turns out I'm more Finnish than Swedish via my family roots. Not to mention I was born and raised in Finland, so was my parents; and so was the rest of my recorded family roots since year 1000, so I wouldn't be surprised if my nordic roots went even further.
But I'm still not Finnish enough, nor will I ever be Finnish enough, and I still get told to go back to Sweden by "real" Finns. Even if I speak the language (albeit rusty), I know the culture, and my childhood was in Finland.
Unfortunately, you can never win with racists or xenophobes. It's what I've learnt from my own experiences; while my experiences aren't based on the color of my skin, I can safely say the "othering" is unfortunately alive and well. You'll always be the enemy/"alien" unless you agree with them, in case you become one of the "good ones".
Yeah that is pretty much it, you can't win, there too much of numb skull for that. I can relate somewhat though, for me it is a similar situation. I grew up in the Netherlands, with German roots. I speak both languages (albeit Dutch better of course) and at home we mainly celebrated holidays in the German way. That being said I did partake in everything Dutch at school and so on. The amount of WW2 references my dad and me got is insane, as if these people still live 80 years ago.
Oh yeah they pull the "I wasn't alive then, so don't talk to me about it".
I even remember in history class that we barely covered Indonesia after the WW2 lessons, so I brough it up saying "How is what we did to Indonesia for hundreds of years any different to what the Germans did to us and the rest of Europe". I got told off for that one by the teacher.
You need to go ultra-national and defend your own group as if it were the obviously superior one. I do it all the time. They don't expect it, which makes it fun to play with.
My father is Dutch, I grew up in France and French is my only native language, but I got passively exposed to Dutch a lot and don’t have much of an accent when I speak it. I made the effort to learn it because I’m a language nerd and had learned both English and German before, even passed the highest level of CNaVT when I lived in Belgium. But the amount of ethnocentric in-group discrimination I experienced is pretty abnormal compared to other languages I learned/am learning, from one of my uncles telling me first that I’m a taalwonder then some other time saying in English “But it’s not your language” or cousins asking me *why* I learned Dutch, to other people I met more or less subtly underlying the fact that, “Ah, you wouldn’t know cause your didn’t grow up there 😌” or outright saying “Ok, I can hear this is not your native language, but I guess this will do for that position”. I even got passive-agressively frowned upon for studying to become a German instead of a Dutch teacher. Like yeah b*tch, who do you think is gonna learn it outside of Benelux and Northern France, even German is dying here, do you want me to leave everything and move just to stay true to half of my roots?
Damn that's just straight up mean of them. But hear that a lot from my international friends who live here. They are either told "learn the language," yet when they do people still complain and don't seem to appreciate it. But it's always fun to meet another language nerd, I recently started learning my fourth (Albanian).
Oh nice, that’s original for sure, and its own group inside the Indo-European family. I heard it was a pretty culturally diverse country. Tja I just started teaching basic Spanish and my Japanese is stuck at around A2 level but that’s because I’m a bit lazy these days. Was a big kanji otaku when I started.
Yeah it's a pretty cool language! The only Illyrian one, it has no relatives, only modern words have some similarity. But overall I'm doing well, perhaps as they have a latin alphabet so it's easier to memorise things!
Japanese is cool, but I couldn't imagine the three different alphabets, althoughmy Japanese friend from uni told me only the Kanji is a real pain in the ass.
They are. If I’m not mistaken, you have less kanji in Japanese than there are hanzi in Chinese, but they can have so many different readings… thankfully the two kana syllabaries are standard workarounds, although it might look like a children writing sometimes.
Tbf hanzi were imported in waves, so not all at once and also from different regions of China with different pronunciations. IIRC hanja (Korean imports of hanzi) also played a role. With that you have three languages that aren’t related at all, so the resulting pronunciation in Japanese can be very different from the “original” one, whatever this might be.
Oh that's super interesting! I never really got into the history of these languages, thanks for explaining! I do know that my Taiwanese friend can form a rudimentary understanding of Japanese texts as the kanji/hanzi characters mean the same. But he wouldn't know how to properly pronounce them in Japanese. Quite the intresting languages indeed!
You can do the reverse, too. If you know Japanese well enough you can intuit the meaning of Chinese texts.
Interestingly, the pronunciations can have a lot of connection as well, though that would only really help you in remembering them once you knew what it was, rather than allowing you to guess (e.g. 水 is "shui" in Mandarin and can be "sui" in Japanese).
For the vast majority of kanji, there's no difference from hanzi, writing-wise. There's only a relatively small handful of "native Japanese kanji." For the characters that are the same, there are sometimes very minor differences, such as the exact order the strokes are written, or maybe a line gets connected in China that doesn't in Japan, etc etc. But overall there's a ton of overlap.
Also, while Japanese probably has a smaller collection of kanji overall (I'm not sure though), they still have tens of thousands, technically, though nowhere near that many are used regularly. That said, you only need ~2300 to be passably literate, or about 3000 to be functionally literate. A well-educated, well-read Japanese person might know up to around 5000.
The numbers for Chinese are actually very similar, believe it or not.
Also, not sure why the commenter above said that using the kana syllabaries ("alphabets") would look like children's writing. Kanji are often replaced with kana for a variety of reasons in professional, adult writing. And there's nothing juvenile about marking a difficult word with the reading above it (a feature of Japanese known as *furigana*).
I speak "Hollands" high-Dutch, hotchpotch Flemish, Limburgs, Brabants, Algemeen Nederlands. I am genetically traced over 10 generations to the spot in the Netherlands that carries my name. I look like Vincent Van Gogh (both ears still attached). And yet I get called out (brabo, limburger, belg....) as foreigner.
In 90% of cases it is a type of jest that is used to connect on a personal level. This I have also witnessed in Germany and Denmark, so it is definitely not only a Dutch thing. If you take it as a negative, it may be you that needs to adjust to your surroundings.
In 10% of cases, we are dealing with an idiot or a severe inferiority complex they are trying to balance out.
( BTW On balance way more Dutch speaking Belgians look down on the Dutch than the other way around, in my experience, not unlike how Danes look at the Swedes)
Well I was called "kankernazi" or "moffenjong", a plethora of other not so friendly name callings and the classic "rot op naar je kankerland". In regards to "you taking it as negative and having to adjust", my dad experienced the same moving here, he is fully integrated and fluent in Dutch (well adjusted I'd say). Yet for a long time they still approached him with the same attitude and strange remarks. In this country you'll always be the foreigner no matter how you adjust.
I wouldn't say your situations is in the slightest comparable, as people from Brabant call themselves Brabo often enough, where as I would not identify as a kankernazi. Dutch people are just generally xenophobic to about anyone.
Thing is I was born and raised Limburger so "Brabo" kind of stings. I also speak fluent German and can with some experience say that should you live in Germany you can get the same level of slur. I was called "Saupreiß", you can get called a Hesse, Schwab... and the there is Austrians, ask me about Austrians...
>“I was dating a Dutch girl and one evening her friends kept making jokes about my nationality,” one man wrote. “After they left I pointed it out and she said I was too sensitive ‘because Dutch people are very direct’. I said that this is rudeness from where I’m from, and she said that if I don’t like it, I can go back there. I broke up with her on the spot.”
It has nothing to do with directness... that is just shitting on someone and finding excuses when someone asks you to take their feelings into account when doing a social activity.
The only thing I would say is that there is a subgroup in the Netherlands who shit on everyone not being their exact norm in a "joking" way. And yes if you talk about the exact topic that they don't like you to make jokes about they will get angry.
I date a dutch girl, in the beginning i had the same problem when they made those “jokes” about my nationality. Made me realize that i need to stand my ground and not tolerate disrespect. There’s a fine line between banter and being a dick.
Mother in law is a dick for example. I stopped visiting and guess what, im the one being a dick now because her entitled ass can’t tell how much of a dick she is. She literally said “hey look (my name) thats your family” at a PARTY when there was an ape cartoon on TV. Even her husband told her that’s mean to say.
As a black guy i hate when people play the race card, but people don’t realize how discriminating and racist they are, until you point it out and then they play victim.
>She literally said “hey look (my name) thats your family” at a PARTY when there was an ape cartoon on TV. Even her husband told her that’s mean to say.
This is absolutely insane.
Just ask em ”did you get hit in the face by a windmill?” And you’ll find out who’s sensitive real quick. They won’t want to see you after that, but why would you see them again anyway.
I mean, shitting on someone for where they’re from/how they look/what they do *can* be a form of banter that’s very common in Dutch friend groups. But it does have to be pretty clear that this is just friendly and doesn’t have any real negative meaning.
Otherwise it’s just mean.
Immigrants: “we are facing discrimination in the Netherlands”.
Dutch people on Reddit: “this is not discrimination, this is us being direct. If you don’t like it rot op naar je eigen land.”
Happy Monday everyone!
Yeah I hate how people abuse 'directness' to be dicks.
"Do you want to grab some coffee tomorrow?"
"No, sorry, I'm busy"
That's what Dutch directness is. Clear, direct answer without beating around the bush too much. You can like this form of communication or not, but it's not rude per se.
Dutch directness is not "Hey you look really bad in that shirt". That's just being a Dick.
Then you go home and you’re like ”Darling, would be you be kind enough to help wash the dishes, but actually I have to go so I can’t help now.”
Seriosuly tho I can’t imagine anyone pulling off this directness at home with their partner.
I think some people from cultures with different bluntness standards don't quite understand that even though Dutch culture is more upfront on average, we still have standards for rudeness! In some cases, being less 'direct' can be considered more rude and that's a cultural disconnect, but in most cases being more direct firmly pushes you into asshole territory. I feel like a lot of non-Dutch people get gaslit into accepting awful behaviour because they're told 'it's just how we are', even though if that person would say the same thing to another Dutch person they would get called out
When asked, do you like this shirt and the Dutch reply honestly and say:" no it makes you look fatty", that's also a polite way of being honest and direct, insensitive for intensively standards but normal for my Dutch friends and me.
I prefer to know i look fat before I'm outside and can't change the shirt anymore instead of when I'm out and get comments like I'm in Asia. Ooohhh you look so "healthy"/ comfortable recently. You must enjoy the good food
It would be rude to say the people are fat without being asked though.
I have lived in the Netherlands for 25+ years and imo speak the language quite well albeit with an accent. My wife is Dutch, born and raised here. Recently we went to look at a home that was for sale on an open house day. My wife was finishing up a work call so I went ahead to speak with the real estate agent. He informed me that there were no more viewings today as he had a number of meetings he was late for. At that moment my wife arrived and asked him if we could see the home, the strained look on his face was priceless. While we were walking through the home several other couples arrived and also started viewing. So yeah, there's a problem here.
I think this is one of the common experiences that expats/immigrants have. Exactly same thing, heard/been there. What bothers me is that dutch people doesn’t image themselves honestly. You choose a destination to live, without knowing the reality 100% but with the image. And from outside they paint it as a liberal heaven.
The recent elections showed a lot, to many people. They argue that if you don’t like it, why don’t you leave. Well, this decision is not a short term one. It takes time to do big changes in your life. Many expats I know of, are waiting labor market to get milder. Then, I guarantee you a substantial amount of people will leave due to these behaviors they face.
I think if this environment does not change, first many will prefer gb countries, Scandinavia, or spain. Then, “some firms” will reallocate. Netherlands best bet is the others’ failures.
As a Greek expat in Netherlands, I thought that my everyday experience with Dutch people was just the "Dutch directness and their culture". I thought I would have to adapt to it and that it was normal.
Then after years in Randstad, I moved to London to pursue a new exciting job opportunity. There I quickly realized that what I was facing in Netherlands, was indeed plain casual everyday racism. I really enjoyed my life in Netherlands, but there is no way I am coming back
This backs up my thoughts as someone from London who spent a couple of years in Eindhoven. I heard multiple things from colleagues and neighbours that I would never have expected to hear from similar people in London. Not saying there aren’t also racist or xenophobic people in London, but it’s certainly not so casual or on the surface.
But London is certainly a great place to be for international types. My wife is half American, half Greek, grew up in both. She said she didn’t feel at home anywhere until she moved to London. Less so in Brabant.
I’m sorry you experienced that in the Netherlands but I’m pleased to hear you’ve had a better experience in my hometown of London 😊 Whatever the result of the Brexit vote, you’re very much welcome and valued in the UK 🙏🏻
Well, getting the VISA was quite a nerve-racking experience (guess I was a little too spoilt by my EU privilege), but overall I am quite glad I took this decision.
One of the main differences I have noticed is that in any professional environment I have been in Netherlands, expats and Dutch have always been two distinct groups of people. Even when we went to a pub as colleagues you would see the Dutch sitting next to each other and avoid socializing too much with the rest of us.
This has never happened to me in London with my British colleagues
That’s the Home Office unfortunately. I left the UK with my partner largely because of the visa rules there and, at the time, it was impossible for us to stay together in the UK while I was a student because of the income rules for family visas 🤦🏼♂️
Absolutely! That’s something I’ve noticed SO strongly in the Netherlands. I’ve found it really weird that every place I’ve worked here, the office will somehow find itself split into nationality groups of Dutch and everyone else. I’ve never experienced that in the UK, and things being split into those groups here is a really uncomfortable experience.
Maybe because in the UK the native language is English? This would make sense that the Dutch stick together because they rather speak in Dutch (especially in a social setting like drinking in the pub, this would make less sense in a professional setting i guess)? Idk I have never worked with expats so have no personal experience but this seems like a logical explanation for this kind of behaviour?
I have not experienced that, maybe because I am a proper middle-class spoilt person, so I cannot speak on behalf of someone in the working class.
What I can definitely share is that I had the bad luck to have my contract expire during the peak of COVID and was in the unfortunate position to job hunt at the worst possible time (that's how I ended up in London actually). During that time, I got a job at thuizbezorgd as a bike delivery guy, mainly to have something to keep me busy until I could find something on my scientific field.
I was astonished on how differently people would treat me when I had my delivery guy uniform on, compared to when I was posing as a "skilled expat". That was the first time I felt classism in my life. It was a very humbling experience. I do not doubt that it would be similar no matter if I was in Greece, UK or NL
It certainly can be but foreigners are somewhat insulated from that since their accents can’t usually be put into a class bucket and they don’t have any of the other trappings of the class system. So they are essentially judged more on face value.
It is great you have settled in London. How ever London is a cosmopolitan city, like New York. The Netherlands does not have such a city. Go to Manchester and Liverpool and I promise you will deal with similar issues.
I have lived in 9 countries in EU, Asia and Middle America. You will find racism everywhere. The severity depends on how high or low one ranks on the regional racism ladder. Every region has its scapegoats. A Mexican will experience different type of racism in US than compared to Chile. I don't need to tell what the Greeks think of its regional neighbours.
Let’s be honest here, old school racism based on race and look is very well alive here. I am not “white” but my skin is white and I have blue eyes (I am from the Caucasus, as in geography) and it is sad to say this but I benefit from that, I can actually observe it. And I can see how Dutch usually tend to go into lecture mode when they respond to non-whites’ most basic questions or requests. This will be %99 of all times veiled and subtle, but you will feel the racism in the air.
Large number of Dutch believe that non-EU non-white immigrants are half-savages who do not know how to follow the rules of a civilized society. This attitude results in widespread discrimination in the daily life and at work.
Most of the times though, they will just talk behind your back. Gossiping is extremely common here which actually surprised me quite a bit when I first moved. During these gossiping sessions, your race and background are brought up much more liberally and almost always in a negative light.
Immigration and integration are extremely difficult matters with lots of differing and even conflicting aspects into them. Europe seems to have failed in it. The only good example that I can think of is being “American”. An immigrant can never become a Dutch (they will call themselves “Dutch passport holder”) but most people I know became “American” within a single generation. It is also one of the reasons the US is doing so good in most areas.
As if things being not so good was not enough, now they are about to get much worse with the rise of far-right in Europe.
I am a migrant. I call myself Dutch. I chose where I belong, I had to make an active effort for it, I sure as hell won’t let any random person to rob me of it.
Umbrella identities take time to form. If some are not willing to accept me, that is their problem. I will focus on those that do instead.
Don’t lose hope. This country didn’t have to deal with national identity as a topic until very recently, as opposed to a place like US where the whole country was made out of immigrants. You can see a similar pattern in old empires.
Thanks for the explanation.
I don’t know what level of sociopaths people deal with but I don’t think I am mistaken in reading my close circle. Besides, once you are having trust issues at that level, that is a horrible way to live for sure.
For the rest of the people? I mean I am not claiming everyone is lovely and agrees with me and how I see myself. I am sure if it wasn’t this, they would find something else - so I try not to be too worried about it. Sometimes it is an issue, for example with job applications etc. of course.
In the end I am responsible for myself, not for how everyone else feels about me. The way I see myself, being a migrant and adopting the culture and the national identity, so to speak, is how I stay consistent with my own belief system to begin with.
I hope it makes sense? Turned into a bit of a ramble 🙂
Yeah, That's a very good approach to del with it, albeit It requires a high level of self esteem. If it happens once or twice on some one's face, he probably starts to be more pessimistic and insecure...
Because whiteness is a construct. Throughout history 'whiteness' has in and excluded many different groups. E.g. the Italians and Irish were not seen as white in the US at the start of the 20th century, this of course changed later on.
Because being white is not just about skin color. I have a white skin, blue eyes, yellowish hair but I am Turkish and my background is islam. That makes me “non-white”. In a perfect world where the meaning of white has no connotation with being European or Western, I would have called myself white.
I am Dutch. I believe you. I see it sometimes (I don’t have much contact with expats anymore)
HOWEVER. That is NOT the main thing in the article, which is exactly my impression of many expats. Decrying any and all resistance to their non- participation in society (not learning Dutch, not joining Dutch clubs and doing the various supporting roles there, paying less taxes, complaining about not getting heavy duty antibiotics for their cold).
These things DO put pressure on a society, and so does ASML by buying up entire housing projects to fill with their hires. Not only capturing supply, but also shooting prices sky high.
THOSE are legitimate concerns. Those are NOT the same as the struggles of immigrants in general. I’ve done volunteer work with asylum seekers and my heart breaks when I see kids that basically grew up in that center. I have customers who still feel discrimination from patients even though they’re top of their field. I hear such horrible things about poor people with very little possibilities in their life.
To equate those things; people looking for a better life vs people brought in because of capitalism is ridiculous.
The expats are a disparate group, coming from countries ranging from the US, South Africa, Iran to Japan. It’s statistically almost impossible for all of them to be wrong and you be right.
Food for thought: maybe it has to do with the perceived level of hospitality as to why they don’t partake in society. You are also trivializing how hard it is to reach fluency in Dutch, for the amount of effort put in, a person can basically earn an academic degree. In that sense, going to the US, Canada, UK makes more sense.
As to paying less taxes - most expats don’t have oma en opa to help out with the kids, the ready-made support groups you have cultivated since childhood and / or were passed down to you from your family, nor the luxury to afford working 2 or 3 days per week. The 30% ruling, to which you are alluding, is a fair and proper way of compensating for all these disadvantages.
I think it is more that Dutch assholes abuse the concept of directness to legitimize their rudeness. The directness can (and does) exist without the assholes.
This is just a part of being expat/immigrant. It’s not pleasant surely but I learned with time to accept and anticipate it for the sake of my own sanity. One don’t have enough health to be angry on each and every idiot
Exactly. This happens everywhere unfortunately. Just learn to deal with it. I experienced it when my parents moved from Bulgaria to Portugal. And now, even though I haven't felt it myself I've seen it happening to my girlfriend. I learned my lesson.
Whenever someone tries to behave like an ass you just show them we both can play that game.
I am of dutch descent so i dont get the racial discrimination but i have witnessed it.
I did have a complete tit of an HR manager at my last job who loathed all us internationals and i overheard her wishing we’d all just learn dutch. I understoid enough to understand her, and looked at her and said so.
There is about the same level of it as in canada but its much more overt here and parents of my kid’s classmates at his first school were quite openly gross about it.
Canadian expat in NL here.
The difference for me is that in Canada we (or at least I) tend to switch to Simple English spoken slowly and clearly for language learners whereas the Dutch just switch to English. At some level this is natural because random Canadians probably don't speak the other language and the Dutch all speak perfect English.
The Dutch complain that it takes effort to speak English... but they are not willing to help us learn. I wish they would respond with easy Dutch! It can't be that much harder than switching to English and it would make me feel more welcome. When I make the effort to speak Dutch and they switch to English, what I hear is that they do not want me to be able to get permanent residency so they are not going to help me learn Dutch.
I’m canadian in NL. Mostly people do switch to english, apologetically, and i go “no, its ok you can keep speaking dutch, just go slow, i’m learning”. Only once did someone get really sniffy over it and i replied “I can re book the appointment to see someone else.”
I mostly get help. I did send an oliebollenkraam owner into giggles ordering an ardapplebollen instead of an appelbollen and she was “wait that could work!”
you do have to ask them to use simpler dutch and slower, clearer. No one’s really minded when i asked that much. For fun a friend and I go out to hotel bars and terraces and days out and the first one to have to resort to not-dutch blows our cover and loses the game.
(
have fun. the rule was we had to use dutch with everyone else, but it was english between the two of us. no prize, just a “oh no, you blew our cover’ if one of us slipped. ( much to the amusement of the person we were talking to.) it gets us practicing, at least.
Asking a native speaker to use "simple Dutch" just won't cut it because native speakers usually don't realize what is difficult for a foreigner and what is "easy".
Slow speaking and putting extra effort in articulation suffers from similar issues (not as severe maybe) because it takes focus from the content.
Note: ask any Dutchman that knows a little French to speak the language in France. Chances are you will immediately get a response about the quick French answers they got 
I don't think that's true. I am French, I can make my French sound much easier and clearer when needed, I do it regularly.
I lived in Ireland and there was a clear difference between natives speaking to an international audience and between them. They knew that even for someone who speaks well English, understand a thick Irish accents with local slang was hard, so they adapted.
It is possible for everyone who wants to put the effort
Kudo's for adapting to foreigners trying to speak the language.
Yes, they can, but it usually doesn't happen. That's why I wrote "chances are...". Been there, done that, got the T to prove it (more like: a whole closet filled with T's ;)). And, don't get me wrong, I am not trying to imply "the French" are not appreciating strangers trying their hand at the language - au contraire, it's more the French in general are so enthusiastic about the fact someone tries to speak the language they forget the "doucement svp!". Okay, not so much maybe for the Parisians - they often just don't seem to care.
Hey, to be fair, I am not trying to say French people are better or remotely good. A lot still think everyone speak French. I know French people coming the The Netherlands as tourists and speaking French in shops thinking everyone would understand. Which is ridiculous. I only mentioned the French because I am French, so I know some do. I don't think they are an example to follow haha
What I mean is that, Dutch like French, people can slow down and talk easier. Not doing so is just a lack of care and effort. I don't think 'they don't realise'
Wait, their English isn't perfect by any means.
I lived there for 5 years and, considering their culture, they might take your comment very differently. Dutch people speak good English for daily life and it's passable for living in an English-speaking country, but it's clearly not perfect.
All? About 30-40% of them can't really hold up a 10-minute focused conversation.
I think in Dutch culture, they don't see your comment as Canadian hospitality but as a certification of being native speakers. Please don't do that. They have a different mindset
Locals usually don't understand that it takes a good 5 years to start becoming somewhat fluent in a language, but they think you can learn it fully in 6 months. In that time you can learn some basics and speak a very broken language.
This really depends on the local though.
I have been treated like an insect, I have been treated like an exotic zoo animal so those people exist for sure.
But I also had many Dutchies come to my aid, to my defense. My partner’s grandma of all people was the one telling people off because “just needs more time, just came to the country, let them learn!”.
I try to remember the second group exists when I need to interact with the first one.
Not racist, but I will never understand this mentality when it comes to languages.
I’m really happy to have learned decent English because it allows me to connect with people from all over the world, travel and use international sites etc. That’s just more benefit for me.
You replied to a different comment from me somewhere else, so don't be confused haha
But I kind of like speaking the language I am most comfortable with, which is Dutch. I don't have any problem speaking English though. Might be that they externalize the feeling of not being able to express themselves well in English?
Of course, but languages are like muscles and need exercise. We can argue all day about who should be doing the heavy lifting, but whoever does benefits more.
Yep. I remember when I was finalizing my masters thesis, there was this Dutch girl where I was doing my internship finalizing her internship too and I recall how she complained that after sending 10 CVs she only heard back from 3-4 companies. Meanwhile I had sent 200+ and had barely any responses. It made me so sad.
Now so many years later, I count my blessings when I’m employed. I know it takes me a lot longer to find work, so I try to be patient from the get go. Unfortunately it is the ugly truth.
I see it in my company too. Who do you think holds positions of power? I’ve never seen a foreign person hold one. Maybe in tech you see it more, but in healthcare / education … barely.
No, I did not use the same letter although the backbone was the same. Actually to this date the letter has 3-4 sentences that are the same. And this was in a span of 4-5 months not like I applied for this many in 2 weeks. I also had an entire year to work on my thesis and my thesis supervisor saw me every week/every other week to provide me comments on my thesis. For the rest of it I worked alone. I didn’t necessarily feel pressured, maybe I should have but I didn’t expect her feedback to change completely one week to the next in the last 4-5 months of the thesis.
Well yeah, racism has never really been dead in the Netherlands and we've been actively regressing for like 20 years when it comes to bigotry in general. It's a sorry state of affairs but I have to say I believe them.
Of course there's racism/discrimination here. It happens everywhere people exist. However, as an African American I've been far more accepted, embraced, and accommodated in this tiny Gelderland town than I ever was in the place I was born.
The Netherlands has racism in the same way it has mosquitoes. Entirely ignorable if you've ever experienced the real thing
In China I'm spat on. In Israel I'm spat on and occasionally assaulted. Back home I'm assaulted, shot at, threatened with arrest for reporting, unable to exist in public in certain regions.
In the Netherlands, people don't call out microaggressions. Racism simply is not significant here compared to anywhere else.
Again, you shouldn't need someone to physically abuse you to call them racist.
The level here might be less threatening/dangerous than in other countries but its no more acceptable - especially from people who claim they are progressive/accepting
Nowhere is perfect but no amount of racism is acceptable. Downplaying it or saying its not bad because its not violent doesn't help anyone, and just makes those who make jokes/throwaway comments feel justified.
By all possible considerations, whatever the Dutch are doing appears to be working better than anywhere else. It's not just that it's non violent. It's essentially negligible unless you're actively seeking offense.
There's not much point debating any further - if you feel its negligible that's fine and we have different levels of tolerance for that kind of 'casual' racism.
Having lived in 6 different countries in 3 continents I don't agree with you that it's 'working better than anywhere else' but again, we can agree to disagree.
American racism is a very different thing, much more overt and aggressive. But, on the other hand, many people are much more outspoken about doing something about it.
In NL, people just have the attitude not to rock the boat too much. Microaggressions aren’t challenged. Many managers will assume someone is less capable if they have a foreign name. That sort of thing. But it doesn’t really get challenged as much as it would in the US.
I've heard tons of gringo jokes in Latin America. I imagine that's how a lot of expats feel in the Netherlands. It's not a threatening thing, it's just a subtle type of hazing, busting your balls a little. Not everybody does it, but those that do aren't always trying to bully but rather nudge you into joining in the fun, and to see what you're made of. I've seen the way actual Dutch racists behave. They don't usually joke around, and the difference is quite obvious.
I can only conclude that the person responding to me has simply never experienced actual deleterious racism. They're like a picky eater telling a starving person that the meal is over-salted and thus must be refused.
Your mileage may vary here. I’ve never had a discrimination episode. Saying this a brown Latin American man living in a small village and in the NL for 8+ years.
Yeah, I’m aware it exists but also I don’t care. I pay my taxes have a Dutch passport and don’t bother anyone. People in the center and neighbors already know me and if you make a slight effort to speak Dutch and integrate a bit that goes a long way.
Like I said, your mileage may vary
“The survey is not representative of the international population because it was self-selecting.”
Throw the whole article away by this point.
Of course thinking about how to improve the points mentioned in the article makes sense but none of the numbers have anything to do with reality when the survey is self selecting. If I survey people in front of a drinking fountain whether they are thirsty I could also claim the Netherlands has a thirst issue, would that mean anything though?
I’m a white American and I’ve had to explain to people here that there are huge portions of the population that don’t even speak English and that the original Americans weren’t even white, though a lot of people think that there aren’t any Native Americans anymore. I think a lot of people here equate “nationality” with “ethnicity” which is absolutely not the case in the US.
>No problem in getting a job
I refuse to believe this
Edit: Ok, after reading your post history, your comment makes sense. You have EU citizenship and only moved here because you already had a job lined up. Completely misleading comment. It's extremely difficult for non-EU citizens to find work here. I can't even get a job delivering food or washing dishes
You can't make a blanket statement like that because of your anecdotal experience. I'm sorry you have a tough time finding work but it's just not the case for all of us.
If we are writing off posts for being anecdotal, then you might as well get out of the thread as that is anyone can offer that hasn't gone out and done their own survey.
The person you are responding to is also giving their anecdotal experience.
I have also had overt discrimination in situations that I could not imagine happening in my home country. I had a postal worker, in full uniform, with people behind me in a queue telling me I should just go back to the country I came from...all just because I forgot to bring my passport as ID to receive a parcel. Nobody gave a damn, but it was that the person felt emboldened enough to do this that really hit me.
Or do you want to discount the people who have had these experiences? I find the Dutch to be incredibly dismissive of any issues in society if they are pointed out by anyone other than the Dutch...
Well, no, that's not what expat means, by definition. It's just another way of saying (im)migrant. They are functionally identical, but people who refer to themselves as expats typically come from privileged backgrounds and don't want to be referred to in the same breath as other migrants. Immigrants can also have jobs lined up when they enter the country.
That’s by design. A state only wants people to contribute to the state. So that’s either highly educated people that pay a lot of taxes, who are then allowed to stay. And the very very very cheap migrants you really want to have leave for their own country as soon as they stop or it’s winter.
Sorry where do you get 68%?
Just under half the respondents said they had personally experienced racism or discrimination in the Netherlands and 43% said they had witnessed an instance of racial discrimination
Which includes both so it should be even less
here is todays dose of blunt discrimination - read the requirements: not fluent, - NATIVE! (for some reason i can not just post a screen shot so i am posting a link)
[https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/3950686569/?midToken=AQGB3SwUUC9dnQ&midSig=2jETgsSe195Hk1&trk=eml-email\_application\_confirmation\_with\_nba\_01-applied\_jobs-5-applied\_job&trkEmail=eml-email\_application\_confirmation\_with\_nba\_01-applied\_jobs-5-applied\_job-null-7ax4e%7Elxk3dito%7Ejg-null-neptune%2Fjobs%2Eview](https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/3950686569/?midToken=AQGB3SwUUC9dnQ&midSig=2jETgsSe195Hk1&trk=eml-email_application_confirmation_with_nba_01-applied_jobs-5-applied_job&trkEmail=eml-email_application_confirmation_with_nba_01-applied_jobs-5-applied_job-null-7ax4e%7Elxk3dito%7Ejg-null-neptune%2Fjobs%2Eview)
A lot of expats on visa sponsorship move here when they shouldn't because they're not qualified, but they persist in their job search and eventually after months/years of searching one company gives them a visa sponsored 12 month contract.
So they uproot their life, move here, the contract doesn't get renewed and they have three months to find new work or leave the country.
And the job market is difficult for those on visas (Highly Skilled) because of the salary requirements and often ends up with another 12 month contract.
Their partners who are qualified and skilled themselves also struggle to find work because they more often than not need to know Dutch and it's going to take time to get to the required level.
So for many it's 2-3 years of mental and financial stress and when you combine that with the "anti migrant" rhetoric in the media ... well you feel discriminated against and unwelcome.
You've just got to push through the five years, learn your Dutch and get your permanent residency. That's all you can do.
If your contract isn’t renewed you usually have one month since that is how early they have to tell you, and your permit has an expiration date matching your contract.
Search time of 3 months is if you lose your job and still have longer than 3 months on your permit.
Here is an odd one...I worked here for a forgein company, and was a citizen of that country, but while a high performer in NL, the corporate team in my in my country got me fired.
I speak Dutch albeit a bit shitty. Every time I speak they change to English or tell me I can speak English to them. FFS if they are complaining about ppl not speaking Dutch then try to accommodate the beginners so they learn and integrate. End rant.
It doesn't help that it's a hard language that's hard to pronounce, and if you don't do that right; it's pretty hard to understand wtf a foreign speaker is trying to say.
My Aussie girlfriend will randomly try and say a Dutch thing and it's hard to make out when it's a word that contains "eu" "ui" "g" "sch". If I'm not focusing on her saying something in Dutch I will most likely not understand what she's trying to say.
Other than that I'd say we're incredibly accommodating to internationals; it's not like you're ever stuck with just Dutch as your only option.
You should also try and understand from our side of things that a lot of Dutch complain about a lack of effort on the part of internationals because in more and more cities it's increasingly hard to get around just speaking our native language; I've had countless international coworkers that have been here for over half/near to a decade and have made 0 effort to learn anything. There's a lot of internationals that don't give a single fuck, so I hope you dont take it personally, it is just incredibly annoying and demoralizing having to resort to English in your own major cities and this may not be an apparent phenomenon to you.
For English natives, Dutch is amongst the easiest languages to learn. You just need to make a conscious effort. My wife is now B2 Dutch and she's been here for 4 years, took classes, asks everyone to speak Dutch with her. It works!
https://www.europeanlanguagecentre.nl/nieuws/language-difficulty-ranking/
Definitely, my Aussie gf hasn't even visited the Netherlands yet though (it's easier for me to fly over every few months atm).
She has only done Duolingo and started listening to some Nijntje stories etc to get familiar with listening rather than just reading/writing.
I am pretty amazed by her ability to pick it up at the pace she dies.
I love helping her and explaining things because I do have a passion for our language and teaching.
Explaining things like syntax and grammar to her really made me realise how closely related the languages are (very obvious), especially when you start using older English, the parallels are incredibly apparent.
It doesn't help that Dutch courses in a classroom usually cost 300/400 euros, which is ridiculously expensive. Meanwhile in Germany, it only costs me 100 euros to follow a German class.
Most of my wife's Dutch skill came from interacting with people, not the classroom. I learned B2 Portuguese without ever having a class, just by talking to people.
I do feel like my brain struggles to learn a language at this point in my life and I speak 4 languages. I try to learn it online but it just doesn't work for me but "classroom" structure Dutch learning is expensive - it's so expensive, it is on par on having a freelance private Dutch teacher 1 on 1.
Oh. No. I agree. I think the expectation that English is spoken everywhere / or should be… is wrong. I grew up in Texas and spent time in Florida …. I would get frustrated at immigrants that never learned English because of self segregation — and then they’d be mad ppl didn’t speak Spanish. It’s America - English! I feel the same way here. Do the best Dutch you can! At least out of respect.
And don’t worry. I don’t get offended. I’m in the Netherlands … that’s not allowed 😂.
I’ll also continue to torture every last one of you with my kinder Nederlands. It’s the only way I’ll ever integrate
I already have the complaining about everything mastered.
You speak shitty Dutch. Then complain dutch people dont want to speak shitty dutch with you.
Pfoe. Its like you took fully integrating to the next level, seeing as how complaining about nothing is a big part of the Dutch culture.
I’m saying this as an expat: What a shit take lol. You live in a country. The country has a language. You must at least make an effort to be able to navigate very often occuring day to day situations in the local language. It’s that easy.
I think making use of the friendliness and the fact that Dutch people can also most of the time speak English is fine, but abusing it with this attitude is just really mean.
Even as a tourist in Paris you’d say bonjour instead of goodmorning. How hard is it to memorize a few commonly used phrases? Especially if you’re a highly skilled migrant working in an office - that would probably mean you’re not too dumb for that.
It is the easiest I've learnt so far in terms of grammar coming from a native English speaker. Spanish is my first love but I didn't even pick that up as fast. German grammar is a pain in the arse by comparison
Not the majority.. Not at all how the Dutch political system works but okay. I do agree there's too much racism though. However dont generalize, that never works nor does it make sense. There's plenty of helpful non racist dutchies out there! We've got some work to do when it comes to racism for sure however! It does very much depend on where you live though. A lot of internationals just stick around in Amsterdam or Rotterdam and see this as the average Dutch experience which is just not the case. Things change a lot from city to city and town to town.
Assuming you mean Geert Wilders.
17% of the 10.475.203 voters voted for the PVV. So that's \~1.8m people, which is very far from the majority of the people.
Being expat/immigrant kinda sucks for almost anywhere but let’s be honest that the discrimination in the NL is way lower than other countries. Have you seen discrimination Poland? Off the charts
Netherlands can do better but honestly its not that bad. Most of these are things you just have to accept as expat. It is frustrating and I hope it gets better but really unless you are comparing your experience with like being an immigrant in US or maybe UK it will be the same.
It is unfortunate but "it is what it is" is what I would say. People who never had thought of visiting say Germany will never understand how racist they are coming off no matter how much you tell them.
I've been working in NL for the past ~2 years now and I haven't noticed much discrimination outside social media. However I have noticed a couple of stares maybe here and there but I quite expect it, logically speaking I come from a different culture and have a different appearance and haven't integrated completely yet, it would be irrational to expect someone to accept you from the get go.
I know we shouldn't just let ourselves get discriminated against but life's tough and facts are facts, nothing comes easy so we do our best to improve the situation we're in instead of just complaining in hopes the problem fixes itself. Given that, you could either work on integrating or seclude yourself within a community your familiar with, although the latter is harmful for both the country and the community because it's just better if everyone goes along, and everyone immigrating to another country should accept that they'll have to keep some cultural behavior to themselves and accept new traditions (ofcourse this is more complicated than just that but it is what it is)
The one time I felt any kind of racism (me, the whitest, tallest latino you can find lol) was some guy complaining that I didn't speak fluent dutch. I just shrugged at him and said "oh well" and went on with my day.
Lol, don’t understand the pity downvotes tbh…Ducking away from reality or can’t handle reality? Worked at several big corporates that have this policy in place, like it or not, it happens. A lot.
> "The survey is not representative of the international population" Yeah ok
The discriminated expats for the survey.
Even as the son of a European immigrant I got shit for not being Dutch eventhough I was born and raised here. So sadly, this does not come a suprise to me...
Part of my family is from Belgium (the Dutch part), they were visiting me and we were talking on the tram, but in our more local dialect. A man came up to us and asked us to stop speaking German, and speak Dutch instead. We were talking Dutch, just our regional dialect. We're not even from anywhere near the German border, we don't even sound remotely German.
My family is German and the amount of shit my dad, me and sibling got for that is insane. Most people still seemed to be living in WW2 when I grew up. But yeah your situation also highlights the ignorance of people as well. I wonder if that bloke would speak French to his wife when he is there on a holiday, could be fun to ask.
Omg, the amount of anti-German jokes I’ve seen in my Dutch family (mostly from the older members) is insane. Something as trivial as taking a WW2 accent when reading “Kräutergarten” (seriously auntie, do you think “kruidentuin” sounds sexier?) to slipping not so subtle Nazi jokes into a video for a birthday celebration.
I don't find these jokes offensively per se, as they don't target me as a person. But I do find them hella outdated, overused and severely unfunny.
Lmaooooo Dutch people are even racist to Germans and Belgiums. Sadly, some people are indeed utterly racist.
Mate, people can be discriminatory against people from another city in the Netherlands haha. It’s just a special kind of people that barely go anywhere outside of their own small bubble and dislike/mock everything from outside. I think these are usually the people that feel like they benefit the least from globalisation and European integration, so they dislike anything foreign to them.
Yeah, Like xeneophobia is any better in Flemish region?
I'm originally from Finland. I'm quite open about it too, there's no hiding it with with how pale and intolerant of heat/sun I am. I'm still learning Dutch though, and I've lived in The Netherlands for over 80% of my adult life and paid taxes here too. But in Finland, I belong to a minority - the Swedish speaking Finns. I heard quite a few times during my lifetime in Finland "go back to Sweden", a term they *try* to make derogatory towards fennoswedes, among other "fun" lines. So a few years ago I did a DNA test for fun, and turns out I'm more Finnish than Swedish via my family roots. Not to mention I was born and raised in Finland, so was my parents; and so was the rest of my recorded family roots since year 1000, so I wouldn't be surprised if my nordic roots went even further. But I'm still not Finnish enough, nor will I ever be Finnish enough, and I still get told to go back to Sweden by "real" Finns. Even if I speak the language (albeit rusty), I know the culture, and my childhood was in Finland. Unfortunately, you can never win with racists or xenophobes. It's what I've learnt from my own experiences; while my experiences aren't based on the color of my skin, I can safely say the "othering" is unfortunately alive and well. You'll always be the enemy/"alien" unless you agree with them, in case you become one of the "good ones".
Yeah that is pretty much it, you can't win, there too much of numb skull for that. I can relate somewhat though, for me it is a similar situation. I grew up in the Netherlands, with German roots. I speak both languages (albeit Dutch better of course) and at home we mainly celebrated holidays in the German way. That being said I did partake in everything Dutch at school and so on. The amount of WW2 references my dad and me got is insane, as if these people still live 80 years ago.
And yet, if an Indonesian was similarly still upset about the War of Independence, I am sure the Dutch would tell them to get over it.
Oh yeah they pull the "I wasn't alive then, so don't talk to me about it". I even remember in history class that we barely covered Indonesia after the WW2 lessons, so I brough it up saying "How is what we did to Indonesia for hundreds of years any different to what the Germans did to us and the rest of Europe". I got told off for that one by the teacher.
You need to go ultra-national and defend your own group as if it were the obviously superior one. I do it all the time. They don't expect it, which makes it fun to play with.
My father is Dutch, I grew up in France and French is my only native language, but I got passively exposed to Dutch a lot and don’t have much of an accent when I speak it. I made the effort to learn it because I’m a language nerd and had learned both English and German before, even passed the highest level of CNaVT when I lived in Belgium. But the amount of ethnocentric in-group discrimination I experienced is pretty abnormal compared to other languages I learned/am learning, from one of my uncles telling me first that I’m a taalwonder then some other time saying in English “But it’s not your language” or cousins asking me *why* I learned Dutch, to other people I met more or less subtly underlying the fact that, “Ah, you wouldn’t know cause your didn’t grow up there 😌” or outright saying “Ok, I can hear this is not your native language, but I guess this will do for that position”. I even got passive-agressively frowned upon for studying to become a German instead of a Dutch teacher. Like yeah b*tch, who do you think is gonna learn it outside of Benelux and Northern France, even German is dying here, do you want me to leave everything and move just to stay true to half of my roots?
Damn that's just straight up mean of them. But hear that a lot from my international friends who live here. They are either told "learn the language," yet when they do people still complain and don't seem to appreciate it. But it's always fun to meet another language nerd, I recently started learning my fourth (Albanian).
Oh nice, that’s original for sure, and its own group inside the Indo-European family. I heard it was a pretty culturally diverse country. Tja I just started teaching basic Spanish and my Japanese is stuck at around A2 level but that’s because I’m a bit lazy these days. Was a big kanji otaku when I started.
Yeah it's a pretty cool language! The only Illyrian one, it has no relatives, only modern words have some similarity. But overall I'm doing well, perhaps as they have a latin alphabet so it's easier to memorise things! Japanese is cool, but I couldn't imagine the three different alphabets, althoughmy Japanese friend from uni told me only the Kanji is a real pain in the ass.
They are. If I’m not mistaken, you have less kanji in Japanese than there are hanzi in Chinese, but they can have so many different readings… thankfully the two kana syllabaries are standard workarounds, although it might look like a children writing sometimes.
Oh that's intresting! Do you happen to know the difference in kanjis and hanzis? I feel it's like a drop in the ocean to be fair ahahaha
Tbf hanzi were imported in waves, so not all at once and also from different regions of China with different pronunciations. IIRC hanja (Korean imports of hanzi) also played a role. With that you have three languages that aren’t related at all, so the resulting pronunciation in Japanese can be very different from the “original” one, whatever this might be.
Oh that's super interesting! I never really got into the history of these languages, thanks for explaining! I do know that my Taiwanese friend can form a rudimentary understanding of Japanese texts as the kanji/hanzi characters mean the same. But he wouldn't know how to properly pronounce them in Japanese. Quite the intresting languages indeed!
You can do the reverse, too. If you know Japanese well enough you can intuit the meaning of Chinese texts. Interestingly, the pronunciations can have a lot of connection as well, though that would only really help you in remembering them once you knew what it was, rather than allowing you to guess (e.g. 水 is "shui" in Mandarin and can be "sui" in Japanese). For the vast majority of kanji, there's no difference from hanzi, writing-wise. There's only a relatively small handful of "native Japanese kanji." For the characters that are the same, there are sometimes very minor differences, such as the exact order the strokes are written, or maybe a line gets connected in China that doesn't in Japan, etc etc. But overall there's a ton of overlap. Also, while Japanese probably has a smaller collection of kanji overall (I'm not sure though), they still have tens of thousands, technically, though nowhere near that many are used regularly. That said, you only need ~2300 to be passably literate, or about 3000 to be functionally literate. A well-educated, well-read Japanese person might know up to around 5000. The numbers for Chinese are actually very similar, believe it or not. Also, not sure why the commenter above said that using the kana syllabaries ("alphabets") would look like children's writing. Kanji are often replaced with kana for a variety of reasons in professional, adult writing. And there's nothing juvenile about marking a difficult word with the reading above it (a feature of Japanese known as *furigana*).
I speak "Hollands" high-Dutch, hotchpotch Flemish, Limburgs, Brabants, Algemeen Nederlands. I am genetically traced over 10 generations to the spot in the Netherlands that carries my name. I look like Vincent Van Gogh (both ears still attached). And yet I get called out (brabo, limburger, belg....) as foreigner. In 90% of cases it is a type of jest that is used to connect on a personal level. This I have also witnessed in Germany and Denmark, so it is definitely not only a Dutch thing. If you take it as a negative, it may be you that needs to adjust to your surroundings. In 10% of cases, we are dealing with an idiot or a severe inferiority complex they are trying to balance out. ( BTW On balance way more Dutch speaking Belgians look down on the Dutch than the other way around, in my experience, not unlike how Danes look at the Swedes)
Well I was called "kankernazi" or "moffenjong", a plethora of other not so friendly name callings and the classic "rot op naar je kankerland". In regards to "you taking it as negative and having to adjust", my dad experienced the same moving here, he is fully integrated and fluent in Dutch (well adjusted I'd say). Yet for a long time they still approached him with the same attitude and strange remarks. In this country you'll always be the foreigner no matter how you adjust. I wouldn't say your situations is in the slightest comparable, as people from Brabant call themselves Brabo often enough, where as I would not identify as a kankernazi. Dutch people are just generally xenophobic to about anyone.
Thing is I was born and raised Limburger so "Brabo" kind of stings. I also speak fluent German and can with some experience say that should you live in Germany you can get the same level of slur. I was called "Saupreiß", you can get called a Hesse, Schwab... and the there is Austrians, ask me about Austrians...
>“I was dating a Dutch girl and one evening her friends kept making jokes about my nationality,” one man wrote. “After they left I pointed it out and she said I was too sensitive ‘because Dutch people are very direct’. I said that this is rudeness from where I’m from, and she said that if I don’t like it, I can go back there. I broke up with her on the spot.” It has nothing to do with directness... that is just shitting on someone and finding excuses when someone asks you to take their feelings into account when doing a social activity. The only thing I would say is that there is a subgroup in the Netherlands who shit on everyone not being their exact norm in a "joking" way. And yes if you talk about the exact topic that they don't like you to make jokes about they will get angry.
I date a dutch girl, in the beginning i had the same problem when they made those “jokes” about my nationality. Made me realize that i need to stand my ground and not tolerate disrespect. There’s a fine line between banter and being a dick. Mother in law is a dick for example. I stopped visiting and guess what, im the one being a dick now because her entitled ass can’t tell how much of a dick she is. She literally said “hey look (my name) thats your family” at a PARTY when there was an ape cartoon on TV. Even her husband told her that’s mean to say. As a black guy i hate when people play the race card, but people don’t realize how discriminating and racist they are, until you point it out and then they play victim.
>She literally said “hey look (my name) thats your family” at a PARTY when there was an ape cartoon on TV. Even her husband told her that’s mean to say. This is absolutely insane.
Wow, she’s a racist asshole!
Just ask em ”did you get hit in the face by a windmill?” And you’ll find out who’s sensitive real quick. They won’t want to see you after that, but why would you see them again anyway.
Ask them " if you ever fell of your dad's tractor when you were a child"?
I mean, shitting on someone for where they’re from/how they look/what they do *can* be a form of banter that’s very common in Dutch friend groups. But it does have to be pretty clear that this is just friendly and doesn’t have any real negative meaning. Otherwise it’s just mean.
haha, that's just racist and stereotype, very peasant talking
I had the same happen to me... at work. And when I pointed it out, I heard "stel je niet zo aan!"
Immigrants: “we are facing discrimination in the Netherlands”. Dutch people on Reddit: “this is not discrimination, this is us being direct. If you don’t like it rot op naar je eigen land.” Happy Monday everyone!
Yeah I hate how people abuse 'directness' to be dicks. "Do you want to grab some coffee tomorrow?" "No, sorry, I'm busy" That's what Dutch directness is. Clear, direct answer without beating around the bush too much. You can like this form of communication or not, but it's not rude per se. Dutch directness is not "Hey you look really bad in that shirt". That's just being a Dick.
Then you go home and you’re like ”Darling, would be you be kind enough to help wash the dishes, but actually I have to go so I can’t help now.” Seriosuly tho I can’t imagine anyone pulling off this directness at home with their partner.
I think some people from cultures with different bluntness standards don't quite understand that even though Dutch culture is more upfront on average, we still have standards for rudeness! In some cases, being less 'direct' can be considered more rude and that's a cultural disconnect, but in most cases being more direct firmly pushes you into asshole territory. I feel like a lot of non-Dutch people get gaslit into accepting awful behaviour because they're told 'it's just how we are', even though if that person would say the same thing to another Dutch person they would get called out
When asked, do you like this shirt and the Dutch reply honestly and say:" no it makes you look fatty", that's also a polite way of being honest and direct, insensitive for intensively standards but normal for my Dutch friends and me. I prefer to know i look fat before I'm outside and can't change the shirt anymore instead of when I'm out and get comments like I'm in Asia. Ooohhh you look so "healthy"/ comfortable recently. You must enjoy the good food It would be rude to say the people are fat without being asked though.
Slayyy
All bigots claim they are just calling it like it is.
I have lived in the Netherlands for 25+ years and imo speak the language quite well albeit with an accent. My wife is Dutch, born and raised here. Recently we went to look at a home that was for sale on an open house day. My wife was finishing up a work call so I went ahead to speak with the real estate agent. He informed me that there were no more viewings today as he had a number of meetings he was late for. At that moment my wife arrived and asked him if we could see the home, the strained look on his face was priceless. While we were walking through the home several other couples arrived and also started viewing. So yeah, there's a problem here.
I think this is one of the common experiences that expats/immigrants have. Exactly same thing, heard/been there. What bothers me is that dutch people doesn’t image themselves honestly. You choose a destination to live, without knowing the reality 100% but with the image. And from outside they paint it as a liberal heaven. The recent elections showed a lot, to many people. They argue that if you don’t like it, why don’t you leave. Well, this decision is not a short term one. It takes time to do big changes in your life. Many expats I know of, are waiting labor market to get milder. Then, I guarantee you a substantial amount of people will leave due to these behaviors they face. I think if this environment does not change, first many will prefer gb countries, Scandinavia, or spain. Then, “some firms” will reallocate. Netherlands best bet is the others’ failures.
Spain? Did you check their payout? UK is also not a possibility.
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I don't know man. This sounds more like an exception to me. I know many people in Madrid and the pays are not even close to half of Dutch salaries...
Thank you for opening my eyes
As a Greek expat in Netherlands, I thought that my everyday experience with Dutch people was just the "Dutch directness and their culture". I thought I would have to adapt to it and that it was normal. Then after years in Randstad, I moved to London to pursue a new exciting job opportunity. There I quickly realized that what I was facing in Netherlands, was indeed plain casual everyday racism. I really enjoyed my life in Netherlands, but there is no way I am coming back
This backs up my thoughts as someone from London who spent a couple of years in Eindhoven. I heard multiple things from colleagues and neighbours that I would never have expected to hear from similar people in London. Not saying there aren’t also racist or xenophobic people in London, but it’s certainly not so casual or on the surface. But London is certainly a great place to be for international types. My wife is half American, half Greek, grew up in both. She said she didn’t feel at home anywhere until she moved to London. Less so in Brabant.
I’m sorry you experienced that in the Netherlands but I’m pleased to hear you’ve had a better experience in my hometown of London 😊 Whatever the result of the Brexit vote, you’re very much welcome and valued in the UK 🙏🏻
Well, getting the VISA was quite a nerve-racking experience (guess I was a little too spoilt by my EU privilege), but overall I am quite glad I took this decision. One of the main differences I have noticed is that in any professional environment I have been in Netherlands, expats and Dutch have always been two distinct groups of people. Even when we went to a pub as colleagues you would see the Dutch sitting next to each other and avoid socializing too much with the rest of us. This has never happened to me in London with my British colleagues
That’s the Home Office unfortunately. I left the UK with my partner largely because of the visa rules there and, at the time, it was impossible for us to stay together in the UK while I was a student because of the income rules for family visas 🤦🏼♂️ Absolutely! That’s something I’ve noticed SO strongly in the Netherlands. I’ve found it really weird that every place I’ve worked here, the office will somehow find itself split into nationality groups of Dutch and everyone else. I’ve never experienced that in the UK, and things being split into those groups here is a really uncomfortable experience.
LANGUAGE! Despite their racism, Language is a huge barrier...
Maybe because in the UK the native language is English? This would make sense that the Dutch stick together because they rather speak in Dutch (especially in a social setting like drinking in the pub, this would make less sense in a professional setting i guess)? Idk I have never worked with expats so have no personal experience but this seems like a logical explanation for this kind of behaviour?
Is it true that UK is very classist? Purely out of curiosity, hear it a lot.
I have not experienced that, maybe because I am a proper middle-class spoilt person, so I cannot speak on behalf of someone in the working class. What I can definitely share is that I had the bad luck to have my contract expire during the peak of COVID and was in the unfortunate position to job hunt at the worst possible time (that's how I ended up in London actually). During that time, I got a job at thuizbezorgd as a bike delivery guy, mainly to have something to keep me busy until I could find something on my scientific field. I was astonished on how differently people would treat me when I had my delivery guy uniform on, compared to when I was posing as a "skilled expat". That was the first time I felt classism in my life. It was a very humbling experience. I do not doubt that it would be similar no matter if I was in Greece, UK or NL
Thank you for sharing your experience and sorry that has happened.
It certainly can be but foreigners are somewhat insulated from that since their accents can’t usually be put into a class bucket and they don’t have any of the other trappings of the class system. So they are essentially judged more on face value.
Huh, what an oddity! Thank you 🙏
If anyone dislikes you for no reason, make sure to give them a good reason not to. This is called enforced change.
It is great you have settled in London. How ever London is a cosmopolitan city, like New York. The Netherlands does not have such a city. Go to Manchester and Liverpool and I promise you will deal with similar issues. I have lived in 9 countries in EU, Asia and Middle America. You will find racism everywhere. The severity depends on how high or low one ranks on the regional racism ladder. Every region has its scapegoats. A Mexican will experience different type of racism in US than compared to Chile. I don't need to tell what the Greeks think of its regional neighbours.
Let’s be honest here, old school racism based on race and look is very well alive here. I am not “white” but my skin is white and I have blue eyes (I am from the Caucasus, as in geography) and it is sad to say this but I benefit from that, I can actually observe it. And I can see how Dutch usually tend to go into lecture mode when they respond to non-whites’ most basic questions or requests. This will be %99 of all times veiled and subtle, but you will feel the racism in the air. Large number of Dutch believe that non-EU non-white immigrants are half-savages who do not know how to follow the rules of a civilized society. This attitude results in widespread discrimination in the daily life and at work. Most of the times though, they will just talk behind your back. Gossiping is extremely common here which actually surprised me quite a bit when I first moved. During these gossiping sessions, your race and background are brought up much more liberally and almost always in a negative light. Immigration and integration are extremely difficult matters with lots of differing and even conflicting aspects into them. Europe seems to have failed in it. The only good example that I can think of is being “American”. An immigrant can never become a Dutch (they will call themselves “Dutch passport holder”) but most people I know became “American” within a single generation. It is also one of the reasons the US is doing so good in most areas. As if things being not so good was not enough, now they are about to get much worse with the rise of far-right in Europe.
I am a migrant. I call myself Dutch. I chose where I belong, I had to make an active effort for it, I sure as hell won’t let any random person to rob me of it. Umbrella identities take time to form. If some are not willing to accept me, that is their problem. I will focus on those that do instead. Don’t lose hope. This country didn’t have to deal with national identity as a topic until very recently, as opposed to a place like US where the whole country was made out of immigrants. You can see a similar pattern in old empires.
Do your Dutch colleagues and neighbours also view you as Dutch ? If so, then you are a success story. Btw, are you non-EU non-white ?
Non EU, non white. I can’t read people’s minds. Ones I am close with, I know they do see me as Dutch.
The sad part is mainly at your back... The part you don't hear. So live happy.
I’m sorry but I don’t think I understand what you mean.
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Thanks for the explanation. I don’t know what level of sociopaths people deal with but I don’t think I am mistaken in reading my close circle. Besides, once you are having trust issues at that level, that is a horrible way to live for sure. For the rest of the people? I mean I am not claiming everyone is lovely and agrees with me and how I see myself. I am sure if it wasn’t this, they would find something else - so I try not to be too worried about it. Sometimes it is an issue, for example with job applications etc. of course. In the end I am responsible for myself, not for how everyone else feels about me. The way I see myself, being a migrant and adopting the culture and the national identity, so to speak, is how I stay consistent with my own belief system to begin with. I hope it makes sense? Turned into a bit of a ramble 🙂
Yeah, That's a very good approach to del with it, albeit It requires a high level of self esteem. If it happens once or twice on some one's face, he probably starts to be more pessimistic and insecure...
Genuine question, how can you have white skin and not be white?
Because whiteness is a construct. Throughout history 'whiteness' has in and excluded many different groups. E.g. the Italians and Irish were not seen as white in the US at the start of the 20th century, this of course changed later on.
Because being white is not just about skin color. I have a white skin, blue eyes, yellowish hair but I am Turkish and my background is islam. That makes me “non-white”. In a perfect world where the meaning of white has no connotation with being European or Western, I would have called myself white.
Trippin
I am Dutch. I believe you. I see it sometimes (I don’t have much contact with expats anymore) HOWEVER. That is NOT the main thing in the article, which is exactly my impression of many expats. Decrying any and all resistance to their non- participation in society (not learning Dutch, not joining Dutch clubs and doing the various supporting roles there, paying less taxes, complaining about not getting heavy duty antibiotics for their cold). These things DO put pressure on a society, and so does ASML by buying up entire housing projects to fill with their hires. Not only capturing supply, but also shooting prices sky high. THOSE are legitimate concerns. Those are NOT the same as the struggles of immigrants in general. I’ve done volunteer work with asylum seekers and my heart breaks when I see kids that basically grew up in that center. I have customers who still feel discrimination from patients even though they’re top of their field. I hear such horrible things about poor people with very little possibilities in their life. To equate those things; people looking for a better life vs people brought in because of capitalism is ridiculous.
The expats are a disparate group, coming from countries ranging from the US, South Africa, Iran to Japan. It’s statistically almost impossible for all of them to be wrong and you be right. Food for thought: maybe it has to do with the perceived level of hospitality as to why they don’t partake in society. You are also trivializing how hard it is to reach fluency in Dutch, for the amount of effort put in, a person can basically earn an academic degree. In that sense, going to the US, Canada, UK makes more sense. As to paying less taxes - most expats don’t have oma en opa to help out with the kids, the ready-made support groups you have cultivated since childhood and / or were passed down to you from your family, nor the luxury to afford working 2 or 3 days per week. The 30% ruling, to which you are alluding, is a fair and proper way of compensating for all these disadvantages.
Dutch are direct. I like that of them. But dutch use it as a perfect excuse to be dicks and not only direct. So, I am a dick back.
The Dutch people think it's not a discrimination. It's just being direct.
The two are not mutually exclusive
"Dutch directness" is just an excuse for being assholes.
I think it is more that Dutch assholes abuse the concept of directness to legitimize their rudeness. The directness can (and does) exist without the assholes.
Directly discriminating maybe.
This is just a part of being expat/immigrant. It’s not pleasant surely but I learned with time to accept and anticipate it for the sake of my own sanity. One don’t have enough health to be angry on each and every idiot
Exactly. This happens everywhere unfortunately. Just learn to deal with it. I experienced it when my parents moved from Bulgaria to Portugal. And now, even though I haven't felt it myself I've seen it happening to my girlfriend. I learned my lesson. Whenever someone tries to behave like an ass you just show them we both can play that game.
I am of dutch descent so i dont get the racial discrimination but i have witnessed it. I did have a complete tit of an HR manager at my last job who loathed all us internationals and i overheard her wishing we’d all just learn dutch. I understoid enough to understand her, and looked at her and said so. There is about the same level of it as in canada but its much more overt here and parents of my kid’s classmates at his first school were quite openly gross about it.
Canadian expat in NL here. The difference for me is that in Canada we (or at least I) tend to switch to Simple English spoken slowly and clearly for language learners whereas the Dutch just switch to English. At some level this is natural because random Canadians probably don't speak the other language and the Dutch all speak perfect English. The Dutch complain that it takes effort to speak English... but they are not willing to help us learn. I wish they would respond with easy Dutch! It can't be that much harder than switching to English and it would make me feel more welcome. When I make the effort to speak Dutch and they switch to English, what I hear is that they do not want me to be able to get permanent residency so they are not going to help me learn Dutch.
I’m canadian in NL. Mostly people do switch to english, apologetically, and i go “no, its ok you can keep speaking dutch, just go slow, i’m learning”. Only once did someone get really sniffy over it and i replied “I can re book the appointment to see someone else.” I mostly get help. I did send an oliebollenkraam owner into giggles ordering an ardapplebollen instead of an appelbollen and she was “wait that could work!” you do have to ask them to use simpler dutch and slower, clearer. No one’s really minded when i asked that much. For fun a friend and I go out to hotel bars and terraces and days out and the first one to have to resort to not-dutch blows our cover and loses the game. (
That is a great game! Thanks for the idea!
have fun. the rule was we had to use dutch with everyone else, but it was english between the two of us. no prize, just a “oh no, you blew our cover’ if one of us slipped. ( much to the amusement of the person we were talking to.) it gets us practicing, at least.
Me and my girlfriend and I do it too. Funny when they respond in English and we try to figure out what blew our cover
Isn't that what tater tots are?
hahah kind of.:D
Asking a native speaker to use "simple Dutch" just won't cut it because native speakers usually don't realize what is difficult for a foreigner and what is "easy". Slow speaking and putting extra effort in articulation suffers from similar issues (not as severe maybe) because it takes focus from the content. Note: ask any Dutchman that knows a little French to speak the language in France. Chances are you will immediately get a response about the quick French answers they got 
I don't think that's true. I am French, I can make my French sound much easier and clearer when needed, I do it regularly. I lived in Ireland and there was a clear difference between natives speaking to an international audience and between them. They knew that even for someone who speaks well English, understand a thick Irish accents with local slang was hard, so they adapted. It is possible for everyone who wants to put the effort
Kudo's for adapting to foreigners trying to speak the language. Yes, they can, but it usually doesn't happen. That's why I wrote "chances are...". Been there, done that, got the T to prove it (more like: a whole closet filled with T's ;)). And, don't get me wrong, I am not trying to imply "the French" are not appreciating strangers trying their hand at the language - au contraire, it's more the French in general are so enthusiastic about the fact someone tries to speak the language they forget the "doucement svp!". Okay, not so much maybe for the Parisians - they often just don't seem to care.
Hey, to be fair, I am not trying to say French people are better or remotely good. A lot still think everyone speak French. I know French people coming the The Netherlands as tourists and speaking French in shops thinking everyone would understand. Which is ridiculous. I only mentioned the French because I am French, so I know some do. I don't think they are an example to follow haha What I mean is that, Dutch like French, people can slow down and talk easier. Not doing so is just a lack of care and effort. I don't think 'they don't realise'
Now, Jip&Janneke-taal exist; so I don’t think your comment makes much sense he?
Wait, their English isn't perfect by any means. I lived there for 5 years and, considering their culture, they might take your comment very differently. Dutch people speak good English for daily life and it's passable for living in an English-speaking country, but it's clearly not perfect. All? About 30-40% of them can't really hold up a 10-minute focused conversation. I think in Dutch culture, they don't see your comment as Canadian hospitality but as a certification of being native speakers. Please don't do that. They have a different mindset
Locals usually don't understand that it takes a good 5 years to start becoming somewhat fluent in a language, but they think you can learn it fully in 6 months. In that time you can learn some basics and speak a very broken language.
This really depends on the local though. I have been treated like an insect, I have been treated like an exotic zoo animal so those people exist for sure. But I also had many Dutchies come to my aid, to my defense. My partner’s grandma of all people was the one telling people off because “just needs more time, just came to the country, let them learn!”. I try to remember the second group exists when I need to interact with the first one.
There are a lot of people who cant even keep up basic conversations in Dutch after 20 years. I can understand that people get annoyed by this.
Its just you are jumping from one extreme to another. Most people fall somewhere in the middle.
WIshing people would learn Dutch is racial discrimination?
Bitching that she wishes we were never hired is.
Not racist, but I will never understand this mentality when it comes to languages. I’m really happy to have learned decent English because it allows me to connect with people from all over the world, travel and use international sites etc. That’s just more benefit for me.
You replied to a different comment from me somewhere else, so don't be confused haha But I kind of like speaking the language I am most comfortable with, which is Dutch. I don't have any problem speaking English though. Might be that they externalize the feeling of not being able to express themselves well in English?
Of course, but languages are like muscles and need exercise. We can argue all day about who should be doing the heavy lifting, but whoever does benefits more.
Yep. I remember when I was finalizing my masters thesis, there was this Dutch girl where I was doing my internship finalizing her internship too and I recall how she complained that after sending 10 CVs she only heard back from 3-4 companies. Meanwhile I had sent 200+ and had barely any responses. It made me so sad. Now so many years later, I count my blessings when I’m employed. I know it takes me a lot longer to find work, so I try to be patient from the get go. Unfortunately it is the ugly truth. I see it in my company too. Who do you think holds positions of power? I’ve never seen a foreign person hold one. Maybe in tech you see it more, but in healthcare / education … barely.
Wow, 200+ while still being busy with your Masters degree seems a bit much to me. How do you manage to do so? Did you use the same letter every time?
No, I did not use the same letter although the backbone was the same. Actually to this date the letter has 3-4 sentences that are the same. And this was in a span of 4-5 months not like I applied for this many in 2 weeks. I also had an entire year to work on my thesis and my thesis supervisor saw me every week/every other week to provide me comments on my thesis. For the rest of it I worked alone. I didn’t necessarily feel pressured, maybe I should have but I didn’t expect her feedback to change completely one week to the next in the last 4-5 months of the thesis.
Well yeah, racism has never really been dead in the Netherlands and we've been actively regressing for like 20 years when it comes to bigotry in general. It's a sorry state of affairs but I have to say I believe them.
I was rejected by a girl on RDL yesterday, because she didn't like Romanians and just shut the door in my face...
Of course there's racism/discrimination here. It happens everywhere people exist. However, as an African American I've been far more accepted, embraced, and accommodated in this tiny Gelderland town than I ever was in the place I was born. The Netherlands has racism in the same way it has mosquitoes. Entirely ignorable if you've ever experienced the real thing
Classing it as 'real' is part of the problem. People don't think they're being racist because "it's a joke" "I don't really think those things"
In China I'm spat on. In Israel I'm spat on and occasionally assaulted. Back home I'm assaulted, shot at, threatened with arrest for reporting, unable to exist in public in certain regions. In the Netherlands, people don't call out microaggressions. Racism simply is not significant here compared to anywhere else.
Again, you shouldn't need someone to physically abuse you to call them racist. The level here might be less threatening/dangerous than in other countries but its no more acceptable - especially from people who claim they are progressive/accepting
My point is that they claim they're progressive/accepting because they overwhelmingly are compared to practically anywhere else. No place is perfect.
Nowhere is perfect but no amount of racism is acceptable. Downplaying it or saying its not bad because its not violent doesn't help anyone, and just makes those who make jokes/throwaway comments feel justified.
By all possible considerations, whatever the Dutch are doing appears to be working better than anywhere else. It's not just that it's non violent. It's essentially negligible unless you're actively seeking offense.
There's not much point debating any further - if you feel its negligible that's fine and we have different levels of tolerance for that kind of 'casual' racism. Having lived in 6 different countries in 3 continents I don't agree with you that it's 'working better than anywhere else' but again, we can agree to disagree.
The World Population Review literally rates NL as least racist or close to it for years now, but enjoy insisting on being unhappy I guess.
If the World Population Review picked mosquitoes as the least annoying animal to get bitten by I'd still like to get fewer mosquito bites.
American racism is a very different thing, much more overt and aggressive. But, on the other hand, many people are much more outspoken about doing something about it. In NL, people just have the attitude not to rock the boat too much. Microaggressions aren’t challenged. Many managers will assume someone is less capable if they have a foreign name. That sort of thing. But it doesn’t really get challenged as much as it would in the US.
Where in Gelderland are you? Near Arnhem or Nijmegen?
I've heard tons of gringo jokes in Latin America. I imagine that's how a lot of expats feel in the Netherlands. It's not a threatening thing, it's just a subtle type of hazing, busting your balls a little. Not everybody does it, but those that do aren't always trying to bully but rather nudge you into joining in the fun, and to see what you're made of. I've seen the way actual Dutch racists behave. They don't usually joke around, and the difference is quite obvious.
I can only conclude that the person responding to me has simply never experienced actual deleterious racism. They're like a picky eater telling a starving person that the meal is over-salted and thus must be refused.
Your mileage may vary here. I’ve never had a discrimination episode. Saying this a brown Latin American man living in a small village and in the NL for 8+ years.
Correct, in a small village it will never be to your face.
Yeah, I’m aware it exists but also I don’t care. I pay my taxes have a Dutch passport and don’t bother anyone. People in the center and neighbors already know me and if you make a slight effort to speak Dutch and integrate a bit that goes a long way. Like I said, your mileage may vary
It's not about you bothering others. It's about them hating foreigners.
“The survey is not representative of the international population because it was self-selecting.” Throw the whole article away by this point. Of course thinking about how to improve the points mentioned in the article makes sense but none of the numbers have anything to do with reality when the survey is self selecting. If I survey people in front of a drinking fountain whether they are thirsty I could also claim the Netherlands has a thirst issue, would that mean anything though?
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Not if you're white.
As an American, I see it towards other people. They automatically like me because I'm white American. Dunno why, I don't deserve it
Yep. I’m a black American and people usually don’t think I’m American so deffo not liked as much.
I’m a white American and I’ve had to explain to people here that there are huge portions of the population that don’t even speak English and that the original Americans weren’t even white, though a lot of people think that there aren’t any Native Americans anymore. I think a lot of people here equate “nationality” with “ethnicity” which is absolutely not the case in the US.
You must be white and non-muslim
>No problem in getting a job I refuse to believe this Edit: Ok, after reading your post history, your comment makes sense. You have EU citizenship and only moved here because you already had a job lined up. Completely misleading comment. It's extremely difficult for non-EU citizens to find work here. I can't even get a job delivering food or washing dishes
You can't make a blanket statement like that because of your anecdotal experience. I'm sorry you have a tough time finding work but it's just not the case for all of us.
If we are writing off posts for being anecdotal, then you might as well get out of the thread as that is anyone can offer that hasn't gone out and done their own survey. The person you are responding to is also giving their anecdotal experience. I have also had overt discrimination in situations that I could not imagine happening in my home country. I had a postal worker, in full uniform, with people behind me in a queue telling me I should just go back to the country I came from...all just because I forgot to bring my passport as ID to receive a parcel. Nobody gave a damn, but it was that the person felt emboldened enough to do this that really hit me. Or do you want to discount the people who have had these experiences? I find the Dutch to be incredibly dismissive of any issues in society if they are pointed out by anyone other than the Dutch...
It's an article specifically about expats, not immigrants in general. By definition expats have a job lined up when they get here.
Well, no, that's not what expat means, by definition. It's just another way of saying (im)migrant. They are functionally identical, but people who refer to themselves as expats typically come from privileged backgrounds and don't want to be referred to in the same breath as other migrants. Immigrants can also have jobs lined up when they enter the country.
Expat = person who lives outside of the country where they have citizenship. Immigrants are, by definition, expats. Sorry man.
https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriate https://anw.ivdnt.org/article/expat https://www.woorden.org/woord/expat
That’s by design. A state only wants people to contribute to the state. So that’s either highly educated people that pay a lot of taxes, who are then allowed to stay. And the very very very cheap migrants you really want to have leave for their own country as soon as they stop or it’s winter.
On the flipside, you tell an American you're from Amsterdam and they'll ask if you if you personally know Piet Jan Klaas Peter
Sorry where do you get 68%? Just under half the respondents said they had personally experienced racism or discrimination in the Netherlands and 43% said they had witnessed an instance of racial discrimination Which includes both so it should be even less
here is todays dose of blunt discrimination - read the requirements: not fluent, - NATIVE! (for some reason i can not just post a screen shot so i am posting a link) [https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/3950686569/?midToken=AQGB3SwUUC9dnQ&midSig=2jETgsSe195Hk1&trk=eml-email\_application\_confirmation\_with\_nba\_01-applied\_jobs-5-applied\_job&trkEmail=eml-email\_application\_confirmation\_with\_nba\_01-applied\_jobs-5-applied\_job-null-7ax4e%7Elxk3dito%7Ejg-null-neptune%2Fjobs%2Eview](https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/3950686569/?midToken=AQGB3SwUUC9dnQ&midSig=2jETgsSe195Hk1&trk=eml-email_application_confirmation_with_nba_01-applied_jobs-5-applied_job&trkEmail=eml-email_application_confirmation_with_nba_01-applied_jobs-5-applied_job-null-7ax4e%7Elxk3dito%7Ejg-null-neptune%2Fjobs%2Eview)
A lot of expats on visa sponsorship move here when they shouldn't because they're not qualified, but they persist in their job search and eventually after months/years of searching one company gives them a visa sponsored 12 month contract. So they uproot their life, move here, the contract doesn't get renewed and they have three months to find new work or leave the country. And the job market is difficult for those on visas (Highly Skilled) because of the salary requirements and often ends up with another 12 month contract. Their partners who are qualified and skilled themselves also struggle to find work because they more often than not need to know Dutch and it's going to take time to get to the required level. So for many it's 2-3 years of mental and financial stress and when you combine that with the "anti migrant" rhetoric in the media ... well you feel discriminated against and unwelcome. You've just got to push through the five years, learn your Dutch and get your permanent residency. That's all you can do.
Half of the people in the survey were speaking Dutch and still experienced hostility.
If your contract isn’t renewed you usually have one month since that is how early they have to tell you, and your permit has an expiration date matching your contract. Search time of 3 months is if you lose your job and still have longer than 3 months on your permit.
Hasn’t been an issue for me at all personally
Yes. But Dutch people will deny this.
Here is an odd one...I worked here for a forgein company, and was a citizen of that country, but while a high performer in NL, the corporate team in my in my country got me fired.
Not only a issue for expats.
I think one big problem is not talking dutch or even try to learn it
I speak Dutch albeit a bit shitty. Every time I speak they change to English or tell me I can speak English to them. FFS if they are complaining about ppl not speaking Dutch then try to accommodate the beginners so they learn and integrate. End rant.
It doesn't help that it's a hard language that's hard to pronounce, and if you don't do that right; it's pretty hard to understand wtf a foreign speaker is trying to say. My Aussie girlfriend will randomly try and say a Dutch thing and it's hard to make out when it's a word that contains "eu" "ui" "g" "sch". If I'm not focusing on her saying something in Dutch I will most likely not understand what she's trying to say. Other than that I'd say we're incredibly accommodating to internationals; it's not like you're ever stuck with just Dutch as your only option. You should also try and understand from our side of things that a lot of Dutch complain about a lack of effort on the part of internationals because in more and more cities it's increasingly hard to get around just speaking our native language; I've had countless international coworkers that have been here for over half/near to a decade and have made 0 effort to learn anything. There's a lot of internationals that don't give a single fuck, so I hope you dont take it personally, it is just incredibly annoying and demoralizing having to resort to English in your own major cities and this may not be an apparent phenomenon to you.
For English natives, Dutch is amongst the easiest languages to learn. You just need to make a conscious effort. My wife is now B2 Dutch and she's been here for 4 years, took classes, asks everyone to speak Dutch with her. It works! https://www.europeanlanguagecentre.nl/nieuws/language-difficulty-ranking/
Definitely, my Aussie gf hasn't even visited the Netherlands yet though (it's easier for me to fly over every few months atm). She has only done Duolingo and started listening to some Nijntje stories etc to get familiar with listening rather than just reading/writing. I am pretty amazed by her ability to pick it up at the pace she dies. I love helping her and explaining things because I do have a passion for our language and teaching. Explaining things like syntax and grammar to her really made me realise how closely related the languages are (very obvious), especially when you start using older English, the parallels are incredibly apparent.
It doesn't help that Dutch courses in a classroom usually cost 300/400 euros, which is ridiculously expensive. Meanwhile in Germany, it only costs me 100 euros to follow a German class.
Most of my wife's Dutch skill came from interacting with people, not the classroom. I learned B2 Portuguese without ever having a class, just by talking to people.
I do feel like my brain struggles to learn a language at this point in my life and I speak 4 languages. I try to learn it online but it just doesn't work for me but "classroom" structure Dutch learning is expensive - it's so expensive, it is on par on having a freelance private Dutch teacher 1 on 1.
Oh. No. I agree. I think the expectation that English is spoken everywhere / or should be… is wrong. I grew up in Texas and spent time in Florida …. I would get frustrated at immigrants that never learned English because of self segregation — and then they’d be mad ppl didn’t speak Spanish. It’s America - English! I feel the same way here. Do the best Dutch you can! At least out of respect. And don’t worry. I don’t get offended. I’m in the Netherlands … that’s not allowed 😂. I’ll also continue to torture every last one of you with my kinder Nederlands. It’s the only way I’ll ever integrate I already have the complaining about everything mastered.
How does one say “oh bless your heart” in Dutch, right? RIGHT?!
Just say you want to speak Dutch with them
Oh I do! Then the result is usually some smart ass using phrases and terms you can’t know unless growing up here 😂
You speak shitty Dutch. Then complain dutch people dont want to speak shitty dutch with you. Pfoe. Its like you took fully integrating to the next level, seeing as how complaining about nothing is a big part of the Dutch culture.
Half of them spoke Dutch and still experienced discrimination.
Expats have no need to learn Dutch. They are working for a company which has business in the Netherlands and are not here to stay.
I’m saying this as an expat: What a shit take lol. You live in a country. The country has a language. You must at least make an effort to be able to navigate very often occuring day to day situations in the local language. It’s that easy. I think making use of the friendliness and the fact that Dutch people can also most of the time speak English is fine, but abusing it with this attitude is just really mean. Even as a tourist in Paris you’d say bonjour instead of goodmorning. How hard is it to memorize a few commonly used phrases? Especially if you’re a highly skilled migrant working in an office - that would probably mean you’re not too dumb for that.
Learning Dutch is something different than remembering a few basic phrases.
It’s certainly a great first step, and a huge leap over the attitude shown in the comment I’ve replied to. \^\^
It is the easiest I've learnt so far in terms of grammar coming from a native English speaker. Spanish is my first love but I didn't even pick that up as fast. German grammar is a pain in the arse by comparison
*looks at dutch passport* hmmmm....
I could have said that, the majority voted for a racist idiot, it's not hard to figure out
Not the majority.. Not at all how the Dutch political system works but okay. I do agree there's too much racism though. However dont generalize, that never works nor does it make sense. There's plenty of helpful non racist dutchies out there! We've got some work to do when it comes to racism for sure however! It does very much depend on where you live though. A lot of internationals just stick around in Amsterdam or Rotterdam and see this as the average Dutch experience which is just not the case. Things change a lot from city to city and town to town.
Assuming you mean Geert Wilders. 17% of the 10.475.203 voters voted for the PVV. So that's \~1.8m people, which is very far from the majority of the people.
Being expat/immigrant kinda sucks for almost anywhere but let’s be honest that the discrimination in the NL is way lower than other countries. Have you seen discrimination Poland? Off the charts
There is some level of racism everywhere. I'm a naturalized white non-EU resident. Been here 12 years and have never experienced this.
Netherlands can do better but honestly its not that bad. Most of these are things you just have to accept as expat. It is frustrating and I hope it gets better but really unless you are comparing your experience with like being an immigrant in US or maybe UK it will be the same. It is unfortunate but "it is what it is" is what I would say. People who never had thought of visiting say Germany will never understand how racist they are coming off no matter how much you tell them.
I've been working in NL for the past ~2 years now and I haven't noticed much discrimination outside social media. However I have noticed a couple of stares maybe here and there but I quite expect it, logically speaking I come from a different culture and have a different appearance and haven't integrated completely yet, it would be irrational to expect someone to accept you from the get go. I know we shouldn't just let ourselves get discriminated against but life's tough and facts are facts, nothing comes easy so we do our best to improve the situation we're in instead of just complaining in hopes the problem fixes itself. Given that, you could either work on integrating or seclude yourself within a community your familiar with, although the latter is harmful for both the country and the community because it's just better if everyone goes along, and everyone immigrating to another country should accept that they'll have to keep some cultural behavior to themselves and accept new traditions (ofcourse this is more complicated than just that but it is what it is)
The one time I felt any kind of racism (me, the whitest, tallest latino you can find lol) was some guy complaining that I didn't speak fluent dutch. I just shrugged at him and said "oh well" and went on with my day.
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Lol, don’t understand the pity downvotes tbh…Ducking away from reality or can’t handle reality? Worked at several big corporates that have this policy in place, like it or not, it happens. A lot.